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* Re: [TUHS] Troff to ps
@ 2020-07-26 23:37 Norman Wilson
  2020-07-27 15:08 ` Jaap Akkerhuis
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Norman Wilson @ 2020-07-26 23:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Nemu Nusquam:

  When was dpost born?

=====

CSTR 97, A Typesetter-Independent TROFF by Brian W Kernighan
was issued in 1981 and revised the next year.  So that's the
earliest possible date.

I vaguely remember the existence of Postscript support in
general, including at least one Apple Laserwriter kicking
around somewhere, starting at some point during my time at
1127 in the latter 1980s.  There was even a Postscript
display engine that ran on 5620 terminals under mux, though
it wasn't normally used for troff previewing because the
troff-specific proofer was faster (mainly, I think, it
didn't send nearly as much data down the serial line to
the terminal).

My personal snapshot of V10, and the TUHS archive copy,
include dpost; see src/cmd/postscript/dpost.  Everything
in the postscript directory came from USG, who had
packaged everything troff into a separately-licensed
Documenter's Workbench package.  That may have made us
exclude it from the officially-distributed V8 tape and
V9 snapshots.  In any case, the only V9 snapshot I know
of offhand (which is in Warren's archive) has no dpost.

Both my copy of V10 and the TUHS copy show dpost's
source files with dates in 1991, but it was certainly
there earlier if I used it in New Jersey (I left in
mid-1990).  Dpost is documented in man8/postscript.8;
my copy of that file is dated October 1989.

Digging around in documents available on the web,
I found a bundle of DWB 2.0 docs:

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/att/unix/Documentors_Workbench_1989/UNIX_System_V_Documentors_Workbench_Reference_Manual_1989.pdf

It's a scanned-image PDF so I can't search it by
machine, but it includes such things as listings of
the source-code directory and manifests of various
binary distributions, and dpost doesn't appear anywhere
I can see.  As the URL implies, the docs seem to
be dated 1989.  So maybe dpost wasn't part of the
product until DWB 3.0; but maybe we in Research got
an early copy of the postscript stuff (I think bwk
was in regular communication with the USG-troff
folks), perhaps in 1989.

I confess I've lost track of the original question
that spawned this thread, but if it is whether
dpost is easily back-ported to PDP-11 UNIX, I don't
think that's likely without a good bit of work.
It would very likely require a post-1980-type C
compiler, since it was written in the late 1980s.
It might or might not fit on a PDP-11; I don't
remember whether USG's system still officially
ran there by the late 1980s.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Troff to ps
  2020-07-26 23:37 [TUHS] Troff to ps Norman Wilson
@ 2020-07-27 15:08 ` Jaap Akkerhuis
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Jaap Akkerhuis @ 2020-07-27 15:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Norman Wilson; +Cc: TUHS


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> On Jul 27, 2020, at 1:37, Norman Wilson <norman@oclsc.org> wrote:
> 
> Nemu Nusquam:
> 
>  When was dpost born?
> 
> =====
> 
> CSTR 97, A Typesetter-Independent TROFF by Brian W Kernighan
> was issued in 1981 and revised the next year.  So that's the
> earliest possible date.

But that was before postscript, that was for the new typesetter.

> I vaguely remember the existence of Postscript support in
> general, including at least one Apple Laserwriter kicking
> around somewhere, starting at some point during my time at
> 1127 in the latter 1980s.

First there was the Canon (LP 10 I believe) and postscript came later.

SoftQuad licensed the DWB quite early in the process.

> It's a scanned-image PDF so I can't search it by
> machine, but it includes such things as listings of
> the source-code directory and manifests of various
> binary distributions, and dpost doesn't appear anywhere
> I can see.  As the URL implies, the docs seem to
> be dated 1989.  So maybe dpost wasn't part of the
> product until DWB 3.0; but maybe we in Research got
> an early copy of the postscript stuff (I think bwk
> was in regular communication with the USG-troff
> folks), perhaps in 1989.

There was quite some communication between Peter Nilson (npn, known
for picasso) and bwk.  I myself ended up working on the last DWB
(3.4.1).

	jaap



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* Re: [TUHS] Troff to ps
@ 2020-07-28 11:33 Doug McIlroy
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Doug McIlroy @ 2020-07-28 11:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

> There was quite some communication between Peter Nilson (npn, known
> for picasso) and bwk.
In the interest of accuracy npn's full name is Nils-Peter Nelson.
He honchoed the Bell Labs Cray and originated <string.h>.

Doug

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Troff to ps
  2020-07-26 15:31 ` arnold
  2020-07-26 15:35   ` arnold
  2020-07-26 19:05   ` Nemo Nusquam
@ 2020-07-27 15:58   ` Will Senn
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Will Senn @ 2020-07-27 15:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: arnold, tuhs


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On 7/26/20 10:31 AM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> My questions:
>> 1. Is there a troff to postcript conversion utility present in a stock
>> 2.11 system (or even patch level 4xx system)?
> Troff from that era was designed to drive the C/A/T phototypesetter.
> There were tools that converted from C/A/T to postscript but they
> were mostly commercial IIRC.
>
>> 2. Is there a way to build postscript directly on the system?
> Likely not.
>
>> 3. Is there an alternative modern way to get to ps or pdf output from
>> the nroff/troff that 2.11 has?
> I would recommend tar-ing up the doc and macros, moving them to Linux
> or other modern system, and using groff -C to create postscript/pdf.
> That really will be the fastest way.
>
> Arnold

Arnold,

Thanks. This is next up on the to try list.

Will

-- 
GPG Fingerprint: 68F4 B3BD 1730 555A 4462  7D45 3EAA 5B6D A982 BAAF


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* Re: [TUHS] Troff to ps
  2020-07-26 15:33 ` Clem Cole
@ 2020-07-27 15:53   ` Will Senn
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Will Senn @ 2020-07-27 15:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole; +Cc: TUHS main list


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Clem,

Thanks for explaining it so clearly. I'll give copying the macros back 
to host and referencing them explicitly a try before I go hacking on the 
source files.

and yes, I'm a wimp. I love tooling around in v6... up until the 15th 
time I've typed in a program that should work, but doesn't because of 
some hidden backspace or tab or who knows what little problem (don't 
paste source into ed, if # is the erase key, cuz ed eats the comments, 
and so on). I like vi (heck, I love vi, and I don't mean vim, although 
vim's nice too) so 211 bsd is refreshing :). If I could EVER get vi and 
tar to cooperate on v6, I think I'd be happy to stick with it, but no 
matter how many times I try, the best I ever get is a big headache and 
crippletar and I'm not even sure v6 will run vi, even for gurus,  but if 
it does, I'm no guru. However, that said, I'm getting pretty good with 
ed these days :).

Thanks,

Will

On 7/26/20 10:33 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 10:58 AM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com 
> <mailto:will.senn@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     All,
>
>     So... I've moved on from v7 to 2.11bsd - shucks, vi and tar and
>     co. just work there and everything else seems to be similar enough
>     for what I'm interested in anyway. So yay, I won't be pestering
>     y'all about vi anymore :). One the other hand, now I'm interested
>     in printing the docs.
>
> Wimp .. ;-)  seriously at this step, it might be easier for you as a 
> more modern user.
>
>
>     2.11bsd comes with docs in, of all places, /usr/doc.
>
> Well that is where is was in V7 ;-)
>
>     In there are makefiles for making the docs - ok, make nroff will
>     make ascii docs, and troff will make troff? docs using Ossana's
>     'original' troff.
>
> yep
>
>     So, after adding -t to it so it didn't complain about 'typesetter
>     busy', I got no errors.
>
> right...
>
>     I mounted a tape, tar'ed my .out file and untar'ed it on my
>     macbook (did it for the nroff and troff output). Then I hit the
>     first snag, groff -Tps -ms troff.out > whatever.ps
>     <http://whatever.ps> resulted in cannot adjust line and cannot
>     break line errors and groff -Tps -ms nroff.out > whatever.ps
>     <http://whatever.ps> resulted in a bunch of double vision. I seem
>     to recall doing this in v6 and it working ok (at least for nroff).
>
> Well let's just save -ms and troff itself were re-implemented and 
> there are likely to be some small differences.
> At UCB, the command would have been: tbl < input_troff_text | eqn | 
> troff -t -ms | vcat
>
> vcat(1) was the virtual CAT typesetter using a Versatec Plotter.
>
> Adobe released a source-level product called transcript, that you 
> recompiled and ran on V7 or later (like the PDP-11s). My memory 
> it was ~ $1K back in the day.  Transcript 2.0 contained a number of 
> tools.  One was a CAT to PS converter. Another was the tables for the 
> ditroff to spit out PS so: ditroff -Tps worked as expected and a 
> program called 'enscript' that converted from txt to PS.
>
> All of these tools have modern FOSS equivalents, but it may take some 
> hunting to find them.  I think sources to transcript 2.0 can be found 
> if you google around.  I'm not sure Adobe ever officially made is 
> FOSS, but after the modern equivalent showed up, I'm not aware of them 
> minding that people did not have the license since it sold more 
> printers with PostScript.    That should just recompile on V7 or later 
> and 'just work.'  The modern equivalent might take some backporting.
>
> BTW: Thinking about this, I believe I remember that there is a 
> directory on Kirk's CD's that have a copy from UCB.  Mount his disks 
> and poke around.  I'll try to look myself but I'm supposed to be 
> helping my wife get ready for a socially distanced birthday party for 
> our great-niece [we have the big back yard, tent et al that can handle 
> the 6 foot part requirements].
>
>
>     My questions:
>     1. Is there a troff to postcript conversion utility present in a
>     stock 2.11 system (or even patch level 4xx system)?
>
> The word "present"t is the operative term.  Probably not.
>
>     2. Is there a way to build postscript directly on the system?
>
> Yes, see above.
>
>     3. Is there an alternative modern way to get to ps or pdf output
>     from the nroff/troff that 2.11 has?
>
> Yep - Ghostscript based tools which is what the Transcript 
> replacements tend to use.
>
>
>     I'm still digging into the nroff stuff as that may be just minor
>     diffs between ancient nroff macros and "modern" macros or even
>     just errors (.sp -2 rather than .sp or .sp -1, .in -2 instead of
>     .in +2), etc.
>
> Be careful - that's not quite the same.  Basically groff fixed a 
> number of long-standing issues that older troff/ditroff had worked 
> around.  Usually, the difference is that the original nroff/troff has 
> some defaults that now need to make explicit.  But most older *roff 
> documents can go through modern groff just fine.  The more typical 
> error from old documents is a site that did not have a Versatec or 
> later an Apple Laserwriter and only supported nroff.   A number of 
> documents when created for nroff will look ugly when you run them 
> through any version of troff (old or new) as the document authors 
> never took the time to deal with the differences in the output device.
>
>     Although, the files display ok in 2.11bsd using nroff -ms nroff.out...
>
> I would expect so. I bet they are fine with troff -t or if you can 
> find ditroff (which also maybe on Kirk's CD) and then run the output 
> through vcat or transcript.   Note if you used vcat you will get some 
> printing facsimiles that were there back in the day.  The reason is 
> when Tom Ferrin wrote vcat, the only fonts he had were the old Hershey 
> fonts (fonts have gotten >>so<< much better since then).   So troff is 
> using Wang CAT4 typesetter font rules and Tim is doing the best he can 
> to map that to Hershey. The PS CAT simulator in Transcript has the 
> same issue BTW.  It's a little better since the PS fonts are better 
> but they don't map the 100%.  However, if you use ditroff, Adobe 
> supplied the rules in Transcript so that ditroff did its calculations 
> using the proper fonts (Adobe's not Wang's).
>
> Clem


-- 
GPG Fingerprint: 68F4 B3BD 1730 555A 4462  7D45 3EAA 5B6D A982 BAAF


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* Re: [TUHS] Troff to ps
  2020-07-27  9:19       ` Jaap Akkerhuis
@ 2020-07-27 11:07         ` Brad Spencer
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Brad Spencer @ 2020-07-27 11:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jaap Akkerhuis; +Cc: tuhs

Jaap Akkerhuis <jaapna@xs4all.nl> writes:

>>> When was dpost born?
>>> 
>>> N.
>> 
>> Eighth Edition, as part of ditroff.  It wouldn't help on 2.11BSD anyway,
>> as dpost reads the ascii intermediate form from ditroff, not the C/A/T
>> typesetter codes from original troff.
>
> I don't know when it was born.  It came from the Documentors Work
> Bench (DWB).  The DWB used various to create the appropriate font
> tables using the target postscript interpreter the fonts were used.
> As far as I know, dpost and these tools were created by Rich Drechsler.
>
> 	jaap


I don't know when it was born either, but I do know that there was a
port of it to a Vax running System V at 6200 Broad Street where I worked
in the late 90s.  It is highly likely it was actually a port of DWB
running on the Vax, but I could not tell you for sure.  We had to use it
to get working output for one of the printers we had.





-- 
Brad Spencer - brad@anduin.eldar.org - KC8VKS - http://anduin.eldar.org

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Troff to ps
  2020-07-27  5:31     ` arnold
@ 2020-07-27  9:19       ` Jaap Akkerhuis
  2020-07-27 11:07         ` Brad Spencer
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Jaap Akkerhuis @ 2020-07-27  9:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Aharon Robbins; +Cc: TUHS main list


>> When was dpost born?
>> 
>> N.
> 
> Eighth Edition, as part of ditroff.  It wouldn't help on 2.11BSD anyway,
> as dpost reads the ascii intermediate form from ditroff, not the C/A/T
> typesetter codes from original troff.

I don't know when it was born.  It came from the Documentors Work
Bench (DWB).  The DWB used various to create the appropriate font
tables using the target postscript interpreter the fonts were used.
As far as I know, dpost and these tools were created by Rich Drechsler.

	jaap


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Troff to ps
  2020-07-26 19:05   ` Nemo Nusquam
  2020-07-26 22:39     ` Noel Hunt
@ 2020-07-27  5:31     ` arnold
  2020-07-27  9:19       ` Jaap Akkerhuis
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2020-07-27  5:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs, cym224

Nemo Nusquam <cym224@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 07/26/20 11:31, arnold@skeeve.com wrote (in part):
> > 2. Is there a way to build postscript directly on the system?
> > Likely not.
> When was dpost born?
>
> N.

Eighth Edition, as part of ditroff.  It wouldn't help on 2.11BSD anyway,
as dpost reads the ascii intermediate form from ditroff, not the C/A/T
typesetter codes from original troff.

Arnold

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Troff to ps
  2020-07-26 19:05   ` Nemo Nusquam
@ 2020-07-26 22:39     ` Noel Hunt
  2020-07-27  5:31     ` arnold
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Noel Hunt @ 2020-07-26 22:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Nemo Nusquam; +Cc: TUHS main list


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At least from Ninth Edition I think; that's where I first saw
it (code brought back to Sydney University by someone who had
worked at the labs).


On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 5:07 AM Nemo Nusquam <cym224@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 07/26/20 11:31, arnold@skeeve.com wrote (in part):
> > 2. Is there a way to build postscript directly on the system?
> > Likely not.
> When was dpost born?
>
> N.
>

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* Re: [TUHS] Troff to ps
  2020-07-26 15:31 ` arnold
  2020-07-26 15:35   ` arnold
@ 2020-07-26 19:05   ` Nemo Nusquam
  2020-07-26 22:39     ` Noel Hunt
  2020-07-27  5:31     ` arnold
  2020-07-27 15:58   ` Will Senn
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Nemo Nusquam @ 2020-07-26 19:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 07/26/20 11:31, arnold@skeeve.com wrote (in part):
> 2. Is there a way to build postscript directly on the system?
> Likely not.
When was dpost born?

N.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Troff to ps
  2020-07-26 14:56 Will Senn
  2020-07-26 15:31 ` arnold
  2020-07-26 15:33 ` Clem Cole
@ 2020-07-26 18:09 ` Al Kossow
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Al Kossow @ 2020-07-26 18:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 7/26/20 7:56 AM, Will Senn wrote:
> All,
> 
> So... I've moved on from v7 to 2.11bsd - shucks, vi and tar and co. just work there and everything else seems to be similar enough for what 
> I'm interested in anyway. So yay, I won't be pestering y'all about vi anymore :). One the other hand, now I'm interested in printing the docs.

Did anyone ever make Type 1 fonts for the C/A/T or Berkeley Versatec plotter fonts?



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Troff to ps
  2020-07-26 17:11       ` arnold
@ 2020-07-26 18:03         ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2020-07-26 18:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Aharon Robbins; +Cc: TUHS main list


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I wonder if it used troff or ditroff and then what it used for the ps
engine (probably Ghostscript) and if ditroff, from where the font metric
tables came?  I also wonder what it was using for cat4 to ps conversion
again like Ghostscript.  Like most folks in those days (even most
Universities) since Transcript was reasonably inexpensive, most people
bought it after they got their first PS based printer, particularly if they
had chosen to upgrade to ditroff.    For Masscomp (one advantage of being a
$10K-$50K machine not a $4K one), I did manage to convince management to
buy ditroff and transcript and buy the distribution license for both.  It
increased our price by less than $100 but we justified it that we really
did not want to have to support the original troff and the price to AT&T
and Adobe was just cost of doing business and cheaper for us from a cost of
maintenance standpoint.   We then just bundled ditroff/transcript on every
machine.  Funny, Sun charged for both, it was fairly cheap - I want to say
$500 a node (Larry may remember).   But you had to buy it from
Sun ala-cart.   Many (most) universities did not because they already had
the sources for their Vaxen, so then tended to recompile and move it.

At Stellar we used Sun's as the 'porting base' - since we had to buy AT&T
redistributions licenses anyway, we didn't pay the Sun per node tax.

On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 1:11 PM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:

> There was a different psroff posted to comp.sources.unix volume 20;
> that's what I was referring to.
>
> Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>
> > psroff was part of the Transcript FWIW.  It was the moral equi to the UCB
> > command vtroff which did the call to troff -t ... | vcat
> >
> > BTW: I just peeked,  on Disk 4  of Kirk's archives are the source to both
> > ditroff and Adobe's transcript in the 'local' directory.
> >
> > I would suggest starting with transcript, copying to your system and
> typing
> > 'make'
> > That will allow the BSD troff stuff to 'just work' us
> pscat/psroff/enscript
> > et al.
> >
> > This is how most sites that did not spring for a ditroff license worked
> > with their Apple Laserwriters or later PS printers.
> >
> > Then if you want to do the same thing with ditroff, that should 'just
> > compile' and build and you replace troff with ditroff.
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 11:38 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Some web searching turns up something called 'psroff' from the late 80s
> > > or so that will convert C/A/T to postscript. Google 'psroff source' and
> > > you should find something you can use.
> > >
> > > Arnold
> > >
> > > arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > My questions:
> > > > > 1. Is there a troff to postcript conversion utility present in a
> stock
> > > > > 2.11 system (or even patch level 4xx system)?
> > > >
> > > > Troff from that era was designed to drive the C/A/T phototypesetter.
> > > > There were tools that converted from C/A/T to postscript but they
> > > > were mostly commercial IIRC.
> > > >
> > > > > 2. Is there a way to build postscript directly on the system?
> > > >
> > > > Likely not.
> > > >
> > > > > 3. Is there an alternative modern way to get to ps or pdf output
> from
> > > > > the nroff/troff that 2.11 has?
> > > >
> > > > I would recommend tar-ing up the doc and macros, moving them to Linux
> > > > or other modern system, and using groff -C to create postscript/pdf.
> > > > That really will be the fastest way.
> > > >
> > > > Arnold
> > >
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Troff to ps
  2020-07-26 16:15     ` Clem Cole
@ 2020-07-26 17:11       ` arnold
  2020-07-26 18:03         ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2020-07-26 17:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: clemc, arnold; +Cc: tuhs

There was a different psroff posted to comp.sources.unix volume 20;
that's what I was referring to.

Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

> psroff was part of the Transcript FWIW.  It was the moral equi to the UCB
> command vtroff which did the call to troff -t ... | vcat
>
> BTW: I just peeked,  on Disk 4  of Kirk's archives are the source to both
> ditroff and Adobe's transcript in the 'local' directory.
>
> I would suggest starting with transcript, copying to your system and typing
> 'make'
> That will allow the BSD troff stuff to 'just work' us pscat/psroff/enscript
> et al.
>
> This is how most sites that did not spring for a ditroff license worked
> with their Apple Laserwriters or later PS printers.
>
> Then if you want to do the same thing with ditroff, that should 'just
> compile' and build and you replace troff with ditroff.
>
> On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 11:38 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
>
> > Some web searching turns up something called 'psroff' from the late 80s
> > or so that will convert C/A/T to postscript. Google 'psroff source' and
> > you should find something you can use.
> >
> > Arnold
> >
> > arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> >
> > > Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > My questions:
> > > > 1. Is there a troff to postcript conversion utility present in a stock
> > > > 2.11 system (or even patch level 4xx system)?
> > >
> > > Troff from that era was designed to drive the C/A/T phototypesetter.
> > > There were tools that converted from C/A/T to postscript but they
> > > were mostly commercial IIRC.
> > >
> > > > 2. Is there a way to build postscript directly on the system?
> > >
> > > Likely not.
> > >
> > > > 3. Is there an alternative modern way to get to ps or pdf output from
> > > > the nroff/troff that 2.11 has?
> > >
> > > I would recommend tar-ing up the doc and macros, moving them to Linux
> > > or other modern system, and using groff -C to create postscript/pdf.
> > > That really will be the fastest way.
> > >
> > > Arnold
> >

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Troff to ps
  2020-07-26 15:35   ` arnold
@ 2020-07-26 16:15     ` Clem Cole
  2020-07-26 17:11       ` arnold
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2020-07-26 16:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Aharon Robbins; +Cc: TUHS main list


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psroff was part of the Transcript FWIW.  It was the moral equi to the UCB
command vtroff which did the call to troff -t ... | vcat

BTW: I just peeked,  on Disk 4  of Kirk's archives are the source to both
ditroff and Adobe's transcript in the 'local' directory.

I would suggest starting with transcript, copying to your system and typing
'make'
That will allow the BSD troff stuff to 'just work' us pscat/psroff/enscript
et al.

This is how most sites that did not spring for a ditroff license worked
with their Apple Laserwriters or later PS printers.

Then if you want to do the same thing with ditroff, that should 'just
compile' and build and you replace troff with ditroff.

On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 11:38 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:

> Some web searching turns up something called 'psroff' from the late 80s
> or so that will convert C/A/T to postscript. Google 'psroff source' and
> you should find something you can use.
>
> Arnold
>
> arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
>
> > Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > My questions:
> > > 1. Is there a troff to postcript conversion utility present in a stock
> > > 2.11 system (or even patch level 4xx system)?
> >
> > Troff from that era was designed to drive the C/A/T phototypesetter.
> > There were tools that converted from C/A/T to postscript but they
> > were mostly commercial IIRC.
> >
> > > 2. Is there a way to build postscript directly on the system?
> >
> > Likely not.
> >
> > > 3. Is there an alternative modern way to get to ps or pdf output from
> > > the nroff/troff that 2.11 has?
> >
> > I would recommend tar-ing up the doc and macros, moving them to Linux
> > or other modern system, and using groff -C to create postscript/pdf.
> > That really will be the fastest way.
> >
> > Arnold
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Troff to ps
  2020-07-26 15:31 ` arnold
@ 2020-07-26 15:35   ` arnold
  2020-07-26 16:15     ` Clem Cole
  2020-07-26 19:05   ` Nemo Nusquam
  2020-07-27 15:58   ` Will Senn
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2020-07-26 15:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: will.senn, tuhs, arnold

Some web searching turns up something called 'psroff' from the late 80s
or so that will convert C/A/T to postscript. Google 'psroff source' and
you should find something you can use.

Arnold

arnold@skeeve.com wrote:

> Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > My questions:
> > 1. Is there a troff to postcript conversion utility present in a stock 
> > 2.11 system (or even patch level 4xx system)?
>
> Troff from that era was designed to drive the C/A/T phototypesetter.
> There were tools that converted from C/A/T to postscript but they
> were mostly commercial IIRC.
>
> > 2. Is there a way to build postscript directly on the system?
>
> Likely not.
>
> > 3. Is there an alternative modern way to get to ps or pdf output from 
> > the nroff/troff that 2.11 has?
>
> I would recommend tar-ing up the doc and macros, moving them to Linux
> or other modern system, and using groff -C to create postscript/pdf.
> That really will be the fastest way.
>
> Arnold

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Troff to ps
  2020-07-26 14:56 Will Senn
  2020-07-26 15:31 ` arnold
@ 2020-07-26 15:33 ` Clem Cole
  2020-07-27 15:53   ` Will Senn
  2020-07-26 18:09 ` Al Kossow
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2020-07-26 15:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Will Senn; +Cc: TUHS main list


[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5002 bytes --]

On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 10:58 AM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote:

> All,
>
> So... I've moved on from v7 to 2.11bsd - shucks, vi and tar and co. just
> work there and everything else seems to be similar enough for what I'm
> interested in anyway. So yay, I won't be pestering y'all about vi anymore
> :). One the other hand, now I'm interested in printing the docs.
>
Wimp .. ;-)  seriously at this step, it might be easier for you as a more
modern user.

>
> 2.11bsd comes with docs in, of all places, /usr/doc.
>
Well that is where is was in V7 ;-)



> In there are makefiles for making the docs - ok, make nroff will make
> ascii docs, and troff will make troff? docs using Ossana's 'original' troff.
>
yep



> So, after adding -t to it so it didn't complain about 'typesetter busy', I
> got no errors.
>
right...



> I mounted a tape, tar'ed my .out file and untar'ed it on my macbook (did
> it for the nroff and troff output). Then I hit the first snag, groff -Tps
> -ms troff.out > whatever.ps resulted in cannot adjust line and cannot
> break line errors and groff -Tps -ms nroff.out > whatever.ps resulted in
> a bunch of double vision. I seem to recall doing this in v6 and it working
> ok (at least for nroff).
>
Well let's just save -ms and troff itself were re-implemented and there are
likely to be some small differences.
At UCB, the command would have been: tbl < input_troff_text | eqn | troff
-t -ms | vcat

vcat(1) was the virtual CAT typesetter using a Versatec Plotter.

Adobe released a source-level product called transcript, that you
recompiled and ran on V7 or later (like the PDP-11s).  My memory it was ~
$1K back in the day.  Transcript 2.0  contained a number of tools.  One was
a CAT to PS converter. Another was the tables for the ditroff to spit out
PS so: ditroff -Tps worked as expected and a program called 'enscript' that
converted from txt to PS.

All of these tools have modern FOSS equivalents, but it may take some
hunting to find them.  I think sources to transcript 2.0 can be found if
you google around.  I'm not sure Adobe ever officially made is FOSS, but
after the modern equivalent showed up, I'm not aware of them minding that
people did not have the license since it sold more printers with
PostScript.    That should just recompile on V7 or later and 'just work.'
The modern equivalent might take some backporting.

BTW: Thinking about this, I believe I remember that there is a directory on
Kirk's CD's that have a copy from UCB.  Mount his disks and poke around.
I'll try to look myself but I'm supposed to be helping my wife get ready
for a socially distanced birthday party for our great-niece [we have the
big back yard, tent et al that can handle the 6 foot part requirements].



>
> My questions:
> 1. Is there a troff to postcript conversion utility present in a stock
> 2.11 system (or even patch level 4xx system)?
>
The word "present"t is the operative term.  Probably not.



> 2. Is there a way to build postscript directly on the system?
>
Yes, see above.

> 3. Is there an alternative modern way to get to ps or pdf output from the
> nroff/troff that 2.11 has?
>
Yep - Ghostscript based tools which is what the Transcript replacements
tend to use.

>
> I'm still digging into the nroff stuff as that may be just minor diffs
> between ancient nroff macros and "modern" macros or even just errors (.sp
> -2 rather than .sp or .sp -1, .in -2 instead of .in +2), etc.
>
Be careful - that's not quite the same.  Basically groff fixed a number of
long-standing issues that older troff/ditroff had worked around.  Usually,
the difference is that the original nroff/troff has some defaults that now
need to make explicit.  But most older *roff documents can go through
modern groff just fine.  The more typical error from old documents is a
site that did not have a Versatec or later an Apple Laserwriter and only
supported nroff.   A number of documents when created for nroff will look
ugly when you run them through any version of troff (old or new) as the
document authors never took the time to deal with the differences in the
output device.



> Although, the files display ok in 2.11bsd using nroff -ms nroff.out...
>
I would expect so. I bet they are fine with troff -t or if you can find
ditroff (which also maybe on Kirk's CD) and then run the output through
vcat or transcript.   Note if you used vcat you will get some printing
facsimiles that  were there back in the day.  The reason is when Tom Ferrin
wrote vcat, the only fonts he had were the old Hershey fonts (fonts have
gotten >>so<< much better since then).   So troff is using Wang CAT4
typesetter font rules and Tim is doing the best he can to map that to
Hershey.  The PS CAT simulator in Transcript has the same issue BTW.  It's
a little better since the PS fonts are better but they don't map the 100%.
However, if you use ditroff, Adobe supplied the rules in Transcript so that
ditroff did its calculations using the proper fonts (Adobe's not Wang's).

Clem

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Troff to ps
  2020-07-26 14:56 Will Senn
@ 2020-07-26 15:31 ` arnold
  2020-07-26 15:35   ` arnold
                     ` (2 more replies)
  2020-07-26 15:33 ` Clem Cole
  2020-07-26 18:09 ` Al Kossow
  2 siblings, 3 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2020-07-26 15:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: will.senn, tuhs

Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote:

> My questions:
> 1. Is there a troff to postcript conversion utility present in a stock 
> 2.11 system (or even patch level 4xx system)?

Troff from that era was designed to drive the C/A/T phototypesetter.
There were tools that converted from C/A/T to postscript but they
were mostly commercial IIRC.

> 2. Is there a way to build postscript directly on the system?

Likely not.

> 3. Is there an alternative modern way to get to ps or pdf output from 
> the nroff/troff that 2.11 has?

I would recommend tar-ing up the doc and macros, moving them to Linux
or other modern system, and using groff -C to create postscript/pdf.
That really will be the fastest way.

Arnold

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Troff to ps
@ 2020-07-26 14:56 Will Senn
  2020-07-26 15:31 ` arnold
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Will Senn @ 2020-07-26 14:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list


[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1650 bytes --]

All,

So... I've moved on from v7 to 2.11bsd - shucks, vi and tar and co. just 
work there and everything else seems to be similar enough for what I'm 
interested in anyway. So yay, I won't be pestering y'all about vi 
anymore :). One the other hand, now I'm interested in printing the docs.

2.11bsd comes with docs in, of all places, /usr/doc. In there are 
makefiles for making the docs - ok, make nroff will make ascii docs, and 
troff will make troff? docs using Ossana's 'original' troff. So, after 
adding -t to it so it didn't complain about 'typesetter busy', I got no 
errors. I mounted a tape, tar'ed my .out file and untar'ed it on my 
macbook (did it for the nroff and troff output). Then I hit the first 
snag, groff -Tps -ms troff.out > whatever.ps resulted in cannot adjust 
line and cannot break line errors and groff -Tps -ms nroff.out > 
whatever.ps resulted in a bunch of double vision. I seem to recall doing 
this in v6 and it working ok (at least for nroff).

My questions:
1. Is there a troff to postcript conversion utility present in a stock 
2.11 system (or even patch level 4xx system)?
2. Is there a way to build postscript directly on the system?
3. Is there an alternative modern way to get to ps or pdf output from 
the nroff/troff that 2.11 has?

I'm still digging into the nroff stuff as that may be just minor diffs 
between ancient nroff macros and "modern" macros or even just errors 
(.sp -2 rather than .sp or .sp -1, .in -2 instead of .in +2), etc. 
Although, the files display ok in 2.11bsd using nroff -ms nroff.out...

Thanks,

Will

-- 
GPG Fingerprint: 68F4 B3BD 1730 555A 4462  7D45 3EAA 5B6D A982 BAAF


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

end of thread, back to index

Thread overview: 18+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2020-07-26 23:37 [TUHS] Troff to ps Norman Wilson
2020-07-27 15:08 ` Jaap Akkerhuis
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2020-07-28 11:33 Doug McIlroy
2020-07-26 14:56 Will Senn
2020-07-26 15:31 ` arnold
2020-07-26 15:35   ` arnold
2020-07-26 16:15     ` Clem Cole
2020-07-26 17:11       ` arnold
2020-07-26 18:03         ` Clem Cole
2020-07-26 19:05   ` Nemo Nusquam
2020-07-26 22:39     ` Noel Hunt
2020-07-27  5:31     ` arnold
2020-07-27  9:19       ` Jaap Akkerhuis
2020-07-27 11:07         ` Brad Spencer
2020-07-27 15:58   ` Will Senn
2020-07-26 15:33 ` Clem Cole
2020-07-27 15:53   ` Will Senn
2020-07-26 18:09 ` Al Kossow

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