From: Daniel Shahaf <d.s@daniel.shahaf.name>
To: Wesley <opndev@protonmail.com>
Cc: zsh-workers@zsh.org
Subject: Re: The request of words matter updated
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2022 07:28:06 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20221004072806.GD27622@tarpaulin.shahaf.local2> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20221004070520.GC27622@tarpaulin.shahaf.local2>
Daniel Shahaf wrote on Tue, Oct 04, 2022 at 07:05:20 +0000:
> Wesley wrote on Mon, Oct 03, 2022 at 15:27:49 +0000:
> >
> >
> > On 9/28/22 12:34, Peter Stephenson wrote:
> >
> > > I'm guessing that of those who favour a change there are no major
> > > feelings in favour of any of the various alternative ways of saying "upper"
> > > and "lower"?
> > >
> > > Once that's established, perhaps someone could arrange for an online vote
> > > at one of the websites that do that? Given no technical change results
> > > from any of this, opinion is all we've got, and there's evidently no
> > > sign of a consensus.
> >
> > Do you need consensus on this change? I mean, if someone provided a
> > patch that changes master/slave to something else that makes sense
> > because they want to stay clear of those words, would it not be
> > accepted?
>
> pws posted such a patch upthread.
>
> > The change is essentially a refactor and should pass all the tests..
> >
>
> Any change has costs. In this case, the change might shadow or unshadow
> another symbol (pws checked that for the terms his patch uses), would be
> one more manual step for any future «blame» or «log» run, would
> necessitate a rebase for anyone who has local patches to zpty.c, and
> would introduce a https://xkcd.com/927/ problem to anyone reading zsh's
> pseudo-terminal module's C source file.
>
> On the other hand, the change would allegedly make it easier for some
> people to participate in the community.
>
> On the third hand, the change would likely have social costs as well.
> However, these considerations are largely not specific to zsh, so I
> expect we could save ourselves a lot of time by finding a good write-up
> of the pros and cons of such terminology changes.
Perhaps http://www.mit.edu/~jcb/tact.html? It's not specific to Naming
Things, but it does touch on the question of how to interpret what other
people say.
In terms of jcb's thesis, the two positions on master/slave terminology
seem to be "tactlessness is a strict liability faux pas; if Bob opines
Alice spoke tactlessly, she should speak differently" and "Alice wasn't
being intentionally racist/speciesist/*, and Bob should follow Postel's
Law".
If I wrote the last paragraph well, I mispresented /both/ positions
equally badly :P
Daniel
> Speaking of write-ups, I wonder if producingoss would accept patches
> adding discussion of such terminology changes.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Daniel
>
> > I'm not in favor of the change because there is not a technical reason
> > to solve. It is purely a policital (correctness) change. I don't see how
> > the change of master/slave in code is changing actual systematic racism
> > around the world or how it confronts former colonizing countries with
> > their often brutal past. The change itself should have minimal to no
> > impact on the code itself and should not present any problems to the
> > outside world.
> >
> > All that said, I think IBM should be the driver of the change as it
> > doesn't comply with their "Words matter" policy. They just threw a stick
> > in a bee hive and now are watching the bees go crazy. If they want it
> > fixed, they should provide the patches to fix *their* political issue.
> > Unless someone within the zsh project really agrees with their view ofc.
> >
> > Those are my 2 cents on this topic.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Wesley
> >
> > --
> > Wesley Schwengle
> >
> >
> >
>
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2022-10-04 7:28 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 74+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2022-09-19 6:52 Xiao Ling XL Chen
2022-09-19 18:20 ` Bart Schaefer
2022-09-27 3:15 ` Lawrence Velázquez
2022-09-27 4:22 ` Bart Schaefer
2022-09-27 8:44 ` Peter Stephenson
2022-09-27 20:54 ` Daniel Shahaf
2022-09-27 21:15 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-09-27 21:22 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-09-28 12:42 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-28 12:33 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-27 21:32 ` Mikael Magnusson
2022-09-28 6:17 ` Felipe Contreras
2022-09-28 6:30 ` Ellenor Bjornsdottir
2022-09-28 12:57 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-29 8:23 ` Lawrence Velázquez
2022-09-28 12:47 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-29 8:35 ` Axel Beckert
2022-09-28 6:14 ` Felipe Contreras
2022-09-28 12:16 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-09-28 13:05 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-29 8:49 ` Axel Beckert
2022-09-29 4:08 ` On the "Words Matter" issue (was Re: The request of words matter updated; quotes deleted) Ellenor Bjornsdottir
2022-09-29 10:48 ` De Zeurkous
2022-09-29 12:11 ` FU: " zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-30 4:29 ` Bart Schaefer
2022-09-30 5:14 ` Bart Schaefer
2022-10-08 8:41 ` Felipe Contreras
2022-10-08 10:12 ` zeurkous
2022-10-08 10:12 ` zeurkous
[not found] ` <63414db7.050a0220.8ee33.4cc4SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com>
2022-10-08 10:48 ` Mikael Magnusson
2022-10-08 11:06 ` zeurkous
[not found] ` <63415a7a.500a0220.e6d5.1c01SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com>
2022-10-08 11:20 ` Mikael Magnusson
2022-10-08 11:59 ` zeurkous
2022-10-08 16:48 ` Bart Schaefer
2022-10-08 16:54 ` zeurkous
2022-10-08 17:55 ` Eric Cook
2022-10-08 18:09 ` Eric Cook
2022-10-08 18:24 ` Clinton Bunch
2022-10-08 18:43 ` zeurkous
2022-10-08 18:25 ` zeurkous
2022-10-08 18:11 ` zeurkous
2022-10-08 19:58 ` Bart Schaefer
2022-10-08 20:17 ` zeurkous
2022-09-28 12:52 ` Re: The request of words matter updated zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-28 12:08 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-09-28 16:34 ` Peter Stephenson
2022-09-28 16:42 ` zeurkous, zeurkous
2022-10-03 14:25 ` Peter Stephenson
2022-10-03 14:43 ` zeurkous
2022-10-03 23:24 ` Eric Cook
2022-10-04 0:45 ` Wesley
2022-10-04 5:29 ` Daniel Shahaf
2022-10-04 5:48 ` Daniel Shahaf
2022-10-04 23:31 ` zeurkous
2022-10-04 11:14 ` Peter Stephenson
2022-10-08 18:14 ` Martijn Dekker
2022-10-08 18:34 ` zeurkous
2022-10-03 15:27 ` Wesley
2022-10-03 15:45 ` zeurkous
2022-10-04 7:05 ` Daniel Shahaf
2022-10-04 7:28 ` Daniel Shahaf [this message]
2022-10-05 0:00 ` zeurkous
2022-10-04 23:46 ` zeurkous
2022-10-05 0:28 ` FU: " zeurkous
2022-10-08 7:54 ` Felipe Contreras
2022-10-08 10:06 ` zeurkous
2022-10-08 10:46 ` Mikael Magnusson
2022-10-08 10:59 ` zeurkous
2022-09-29 8:31 ` Axel Beckert
2022-09-28 20:01 ` Eric Cook
2022-09-29 8:05 ` Lawrence Velázquez
2022-10-01 4:40 ` Lawrence Velázquez
2022-10-03 15:24 ` Peter Stephenson
2022-10-05 3:02 Wesley
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