Re: [9fans] Formation of a Plan 9 Core Team

Re: [9fans] Formation of a Plan 9 Core Team

[sirjofri]

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26.01.2024 10:49:42 Frank D. Engel, Jr. <fde101@fjrhome.net>:

> From my perspective, Plan 9 was split into two forks: 9legacy for people who don't want it to move forward but simply to be maintained, and 9front for people who want the project to move forward and continue to grow.
> 
> Having a core team for "Plan 9" at this point would be kind of pointless as the name was a real product at one time but now encompasses a collection of related forks of what was once a product, so such a team would need to form around one particular fork.
> 
> Having a core team basically expresses the goal of moving the project forward, so if a core team were to form right now, it would be for 9front, or around a new fork with a similar set of common ideals (maybe we move on to Plan 10?), since moving forward is kind of the antithesis of what 9legacy seems to be about.

That sounds about right. Basically everything you said.

Any attempt to release an official new edition of Plan 9 would be a fork.

I personally think it is ok for 9legacy to just maintain the original version and not move the project forward. I think 9front tries to stay as compatible as possible at runtime (so same binary formats, same protocols, basically Plan 9 4th "plus").

What OP wants might include breaking changes that break compatibility on some system layers. Probably not on a level of protocols or something, but filesystems might change, probably a complete new window manager, graphics acceleration, a different plumber and lots and lots of more "modern" software (anyone wanna port firefox or chrome? ;) ). That might really be a Plan 10 at some point.

I very much believe that this should be a fork, probably with some kinda package manager to make larger parts optional. Not everyone needs everything. Plan 9 as it is right now can include many things without asking, because they're so small. Imagine bundling a 100M graphics driver with Plan 9, including the source! No, thanks.

Back to topic with some question to the OP (and please, please, don't take it personally or something): Is it possible that you want to contribute to Plan 9 but don't know where to start? I remember, when I started with Plan 9, I wanted to improve many things, contribute everything I could, until I realized that many things are like they are on purpose. I was often grounded by people like ori, hiro, mycroftiv, kvik and a few others on grid, as well as cat-v. I learned that being part of Plan 9 does not necessarily mean contributing large chunks of code, or changing many things to be "better" (whatever better means).

sirjofri

P.S.: sorry Frank, I clicked the wrong reply button. Of course this should go to the mailing list.

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Re: [9fans] Formation of a Plan 9 Core Team

[denzuko]

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On Friday, January 26, 2024, at 6:47 AM, sirjofri wrote:
> I remember, when I started with Plan 9, I wanted to improve many things, contribute everything I could, until I realized that many things are like they are on purpose. I was often grounded by people like ori, hiro, mycroftiv, kvik and a few others on grid, as well as cat-v. I learned that being part of Plan 9 does not necessarily mean contributing large chunks of code, or changing many things to be "better" (whatever better means).

Couldn't agree with this any stronger and for one apricate it being said. In a way I need to hear it myself too.

I am sure coming into grid chat like I do and asking so many newb questions might be annoying but having everyone there give some gentle nudges on how the 9 way is has been helpful. Like my frogfind script up on grid disk, it was calling mothra directly originally but now just plumbs the url  thanks to a suggestion on grid chat and some rethinking of the problem.

But honestly the community has been nothing but helpful and as for a Plan9 core team; it feels like there already is a core team without there being a risk of death by committee of an formal core team. Let along that anyone who finds there way to supporting the community at large is a contributor to that so called "core team".

Guess what I'm saying here is while I'm a bit on the newer side I do agree overall that there does not need to be a core team since p9p, 9front, and 9legacy have a small enough contributor base, community, and design philosophy that a formalization doesn't fit in or make any sense.
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Re: [9fans] Formation of a Plan 9 Core Team

[Vester "Vic" Thacker]

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I would like to extend my gratitude to everyone who took the 
time to provide their valuable feedback. I fully acknowledge that there 
appears to be limited interest in the proposal. Your time and assistance
 are greatly appreciated.

--vic
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Re: [9fans] Formation of a Plan 9 Core Team

[Lucio De Re]

On 1/26/24, hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote:
>> People use 9front, which is not plan 9. Many good things
>> started as forks, and that's ok.
>
> mostly i agreed. but to me plan9 is just an old 9front version without
> the bootloader.
>
It's a neat summary, but it reflects a particular perspective and
tends to be dismissive of possible alternative perceptions.

To go back to a core team, it seems obvious to me that the work of
formally describing the current status would be the fundamental core
function and I can't imagine anyone, not even an aspiring academic,
taking that on. Something along the lines of Nemo's commentary is just
too big a task today. And that is just the kernel...

Incidentally, does FreeBSD have a single distribution? I know NetBSD
does, but then FreeBSD and OpenBSD are forks from 386BSD through
NetBSD, and they share much, but have distinct identities. I tend to
think of 9front and 9legacy along similar lines.

I dream of "one Plan 9", but it is an immense and probably pointless exercise.

Lucio.

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Re: [9fans] Formation of a Plan 9 Core Team

[hiro]

> People use 9front, which is not plan 9. Many good things
> started as forks, and that's ok.

mostly i agreed. but to me plan9 is just an old 9front version without
the bootloader.

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Re: [9fans] Formation of a Plan 9 Core Team

[ori]

In my experience, an open source team forms when
someone does work.  If the work is good, others join
in.  They start with someone taking initiative to
build.

Eventually, it may make sense to put in some
bureaucracy, as people doing the work struggle to
communicate effectively.

Right now, it appears that (outside 9front) the problem
is the opposite -- there's a lot of folks trying to
communicate a direction, but far too few sharing code.

It may be worth quoting the FreeBSD wiki on what their
core team does:

    The FreeBSD/core team manages the project as a
    whole.  In theory, they set the long term goals and
    agenda for development and then delegate the
    implementation of these goals to the appropriate
    teams.  In reality, the groups of developers doing
    work in a particular area tend to have an even
    greater say in the direction of the project.  The
    core team has historically recognized this and
    gives great deference to active, productive members
    of the community in matters of direction.  Core,
    and its members, encourage the developer community
    to work together towards a consensus driven final
    goal.  Core rarely explicitly endorses these goals,
    but often takes note of progress or its lack in
    areas important to the project.

Again, it's worth emphasizing here that the FreeBSD
core team sees its job as facilitating consensus, and
dictating direction is a failure mode rather than the
common outcome.

Don't worry: if you start setting a direction and
making progress, you'll have a peanut gallery chiming
in and trying to chart the work you do.  If you're
lucky, some may even help.

Quoth Vester \Vic\" Thacker <vester.thacker@fastmail.fm>:
> Is there interest in establishing a dedicated Plan 9 Core Team to spearhead its technical development? When we look at other communities like FreeBSD, they have both a foundation and a core team, with the latter overseeing the technical aspects of the project. If this idea resonates with you, then the idea of selecting members for the Plan 9 Core Team is worth considering.
> It's important to note that the Plan 9 ecosystem consists of multiple distributions. It's possible that the technical leaders of these projects might be willing to step up and contribute their expertise to the Plan 9 Core Team, offering valuable guidance and facilitating the development of a new mainline.
> 
> The Core Team's responsibilities would include making the tough decisions required to chart the future course of Plan 9. What are your thoughts on this proposal?
> 
> --vic
> 

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Re: [9fans] Formation of a Plan 9 Core Team

[Juhani Forsman]

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Honestly speaking, in current situation this tastes a bit for 
administration for the sake of administration. In my opinion it would be 
more fruitful to bring together at first the niners with similar goals and 
needs i.e. "SIGs" at first which could form the core later if necessary

        jf

On Fri, 26 Jan 2024, Vester "Vic" Thacker wrote:

> 
> When looking at the FreeBSD project, the introduction of a Plan 9 Core Team can offer several benefits:
>
>  1.
>
>     Centralized Technical Leadership: A Core Team can provide clear technical leadership and direction for the project. This ensures that development efforts are
>     coordinated, focused, and aligned with the project's goals.
>  2.
>
>     Consistency and Stability: With a dedicated Core Team, there is a better chance of maintaining consistency and stability in the development process. This can lead to
>     more reliable and predictable updates.
>  3.
>
>     Efficient Decision-Making: The Core Team can streamline decision-making processes, especially for critical technical decisions. This can help avoid delays and
>     conflicts that might arise in a more decentralized development model.
>  4.
>
>     Attracting Contributors: Having a well-defined leadership structure can make the project more attractive to potential contributors, as they can see a clear path for
>     their contributions and how they can impact the project's direction.
>  5.
>
>     Community Cohesion: A Core Team can act as a unifying force within the community, bringing together contributors from various Plan 9 distributions and projects. It
>     fosters collaboration and cooperation.
>  6.
>
>     Long-Term Sustainability: By focusing on technical governance, a Core Team can help ensure the long-term sustainability of the project, making it less reliant on the
>     efforts of a single individual or a small group.
>  7.
>
>     Representation: The Core Team can include representatives from different Plan 9 distributions, ensuring that various voices and perspectives are considered in the
>     decision-making process.
>  8.
>
>     Resource Allocation: The Core Team can allocate resources more efficiently, directing efforts towards areas that are most critical to the project's success.
>  9.
>
>     Enhanced Documentation: With a centralized team, there's often a better opportunity to maintain and improve project documentation, making it easier for newcomers to
>     understand and contribute to the project.
>  10.
>
>     Fostering Innovation: A Core Team can actively promote innovation and new features, driving the evolution of the Plan 9 operating system in a direction that aligns
>     with the community's needs and goals.
> 
> 
> --vic
> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink
> 
>
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Re: [9fans] Formation of a Plan 9 Core Team

[sirjofri]

Hello again,

26.01.2024 09:08:29 Vester "Vic" Thacker <vester.thacker@fastmail.fm>:
> When looking at the FreeBSD project, the introduction of a Plan 9 Core Team can offer several benefits:
>
> 1. *Centralized Technical Leadership*: A Core Team can provide clear technical leadership and direction for the project. This ensures that development efforts are coordinated, focused, and aligned with the project's goals.

There currently is no project 5e. That's why there's no need for a core team, but people to start the project.

> 2. *Consistency and Stability*: With a dedicated Core Team, there is a better chance of maintaining consistency and stability in the development process. This can lead to more reliable and predictable updates.

This will happen somewhat automatically once people are there who do the work. There's no need for an official core team.

> 3. *Efficient Decision-Making*: The Core Team can streamline decision-making processes, especially for critical technical decisions. This can help avoid delays and conflicts that might arise in a more decentralized development model.
>
> 4. *Attracting Contributors*: Having a well-defined leadership structure can make the project more attractive to potential contributors, as they can see a clear path for their contributions and how they can impact the project's direction.

Who/What attracts the attractors?

People will join when it's attractive to join. What do you offer to the core team besides your vision?

> 5. *Community Cohesion*: A Core Team can act as a unifying force within the community, bringing together contributors from various Plan 9 distributions and projects. It fosters collaboration and cooperation.
>
> 6. *Long-Term Sustainability*: By focusing on technical governance, a Core Team can help ensure the long-term sustainability of the project, making it less reliant on the efforts of a single individual or a small group.
>
> 7. *Representation*: The Core Team can include representatives from different Plan 9 distributions, ensuring that various voices and perspectives are considered in the decision-making process.
>
> 8. *Resource Allocation*: The Core Team can allocate resources more efficiently, directing efforts towards areas that are most critical to the project's success.

There are no resources yet that should be directed. I can only see a vision and you who offers the vision. Do you also offer other resources like code?

> 9. *Enhanced Documentation*: With a centralized team, there's often a better opportunity to maintain and improve project documentation, making it easier for newcomers to understand and contribute to the project.

That needs people who do the work.

> 10. *Fostering Innovation*: A Core Team can actively promote innovation and new features, driving the evolution of the Plan 9 operating system in a direction that aligns with the community's needs and goals.


As you can see in the inline responses, you first need people who do the work. Without that, there's no need (and also no opportunity) to build a core team.

You can, however, start yourself and wait for people to join. Be the core and don't just wait for the core.

You can even build a company and hire people to get things started faster. But that again needs resources: money.

Note that I'm not opposed to your general vision. There are many very good aspects in there. I just can't envision that in an official 5e release, but in another fork (maybe of an existing fork). I personally would think it's best to built upon 9front, because they have good hardware support already. And there's many great ideas in that bubble, some of them get rejected.

sirjofri

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Re: [9fans] Formation of a Plan 9 Core Team

[sirjofri]

Hey Vic,

I followed the other thread and read through your initial mail. Here's my thoughts.

I don't think the development of another mainline release or the formation of a core team really makes sense. A core team is built around a solid vision and the ability (and want) to follow that.

My suggestion is, you just start building your own distribution based on your vision and people can join. I just doubt that this will end up being 5e, especially because there's nobody who's willing to give it a 5e stamp.

That said, we have "official" plan 9 releases: 4th is "officially" 4th, 9front is "officially" 9front, and 9legacy is "officially" 9legacy. It's ok to let history be and start building new stuff based on what happened in the past 15 years instead of building on a state 15 years ago and hoping for a magical stamp to give you an "official" branding.

People don't care if they're using an "official" system. People use linux, which is not unix. People use 9front, which is not plan 9. Many good things started as forks, and that's ok.

Forming a core team is like forcing people into a vision without a base. Maybe they'll start, but there's no guarantee. It's more likely they'll just leave and that was it.

If you take a look at FreeBSD, they started more or less as something like 9legacy, and they continued to be 9legacy. They never were "official" 386BSD, they even looked for another name, which ended up being "FreeBSD".

I'll write another mail as response to your new mail.

sirjofri

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Re: [9fans] Formation of a Plan 9 Core Team

[Vester "Vic" Thacker]

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When looking at the FreeBSD project, the introduction of a Plan 9 Core Team can offer several benefits: 


 1. *Centralized Technical Leadership*: A Core Team can provide clear technical leadership and direction for the project. This ensures that development efforts are coordinated, focused, and aligned with the project's goals.


 2. *Consistency and Stability*: With a dedicated Core Team, there is a better chance of maintaining consistency and stability in the development process. This can lead to more reliable and predictable updates.


 3. *Efficient Decision-Making*: The Core Team can streamline decision-making processes, especially for critical technical decisions. This can help avoid delays and conflicts that might arise in a more decentralized development model.


 4. *Attracting Contributors*: Having a well-defined leadership structure can make the project more attractive to potential contributors, as they can see a clear path for their contributions and how they can impact the project's direction.


 5. *Community Cohesion*: A Core Team can act as a unifying force within the community, bringing together contributors from various Plan 9 distributions and projects. It fosters collaboration and cooperation.


 6. *Long-Term Sustainability*: By focusing on technical governance, a Core Team can help ensure the long-term sustainability of the project, making it less reliant on the efforts of a single individual or a small group.


 7. *Representation*: The Core Team can include representatives from different Plan 9 distributions, ensuring that various voices and perspectives are considered in the decision-making process.


 8. *Resource Allocation*: The Core Team can allocate resources more efficiently, directing efforts towards areas that are most critical to the project's success.


 9. *Enhanced Documentation*: With a centralized team, there's often a better opportunity to maintain and improve project documentation, making it easier for newcomers to understand and contribute to the project.


 10. *Fostering Innovation*: A Core Team can actively promote innovation and new features, driving the evolution of the Plan 9 operating system in a direction that aligns with the community's needs and goals.



--vic
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Re: [9fans] Formation of a Plan 9 Core Team

[fig]

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What would the benefits be of adding hierarchy systems like this?

On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:26 PM Vester "Vic" Thacker <
vester.thacker@fastmail.fm> wrote:

> Is there interest in establishing a dedicated Plan 9 Core Team to
> spearhead its technical development? When we look at other communities like
> FreeBSD, they have both a foundation and a core team, with the latter
> overseeing the technical aspects of the project. If this idea resonates
> with you, then the idea of selecting members for the Plan 9 Core Team is
> worth considering.
>
> It's important to note that the Plan 9 ecosystem consists of multiple
> distributions. It's possible that the technical leaders of these projects
> might be willing to step up and contribute their expertise to the Plan 9
> Core Team, offering valuable guidance and facilitating the development of a
> new mainline.
>
> The Core Team's responsibilities would include making the tough decisions
> required to chart the future course of Plan 9. What are your thoughts on
> this proposal?
>
> --vic
>
>
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[9fans] Formation of a Plan 9 Core Team

[Vester "Vic" Thacker]

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Is there interest in establishing a dedicated Plan 9 Core Team to spearhead its technical development? When we look at other communities like FreeBSD, they have both a foundation and a core team, with the latter overseeing the technical aspects of the project. If this idea resonates with you, then the idea of selecting members for the Plan 9 Core Team is worth considering.
It's important to note that the Plan 9 ecosystem consists of multiple distributions. It's possible that the technical leaders of these projects might be willing to step up and contribute their expertise to the Plan 9 Core Team, offering valuable guidance and facilitating the development of a new mainline.


The Core Team's responsibilities would include making the tough decisions required to chart the future course of Plan 9. What are your thoughts on this proposal?


--vic




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