[9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Joey Makar]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 528 bytes --]

Hello, attached is a patch to samterm to make the up and down arrow
keys move the cursor.

When the down arrow key is pressed it should go to the next newline
plus the number of characters from the previous newline, unless that
is beyond the next next newline, then go to that.

And for the up arrow key: go the previous previous newline plus the
number of characters from the previous newline, unless that is beyond
the previous newline, then go to that.

I'm relatively new to Plan9, any comments welcome.

Joey

[-- Attachment #2: samterm.h.patch --]
[-- Type: application/octet-stream, Size: 110 bytes --]

162a
Section	*lastsection(Rasp*, Section*);
long	prevnewline(Rasp*, long);
long	nextnewline(Rasp*, long);
.
w

[-- Attachment #3: main.c.patch --]
[-- Type: application/octet-stream, Size: 2402 bytes --]

663a
}

Section*
lastsection(Rasp *r, Section *s)
{
	Section *p;
	for(p=r->sect; p; p=p->next)
		if(p->next == s)
			return p;
	return 0;
}

long
prevnewline(Rasp *r, long from)
{
	Section *sect;
	Rune *text;
	long rp, sp;	/* Rasp, Section position */
			/* rp is the integer counterpart of text */

	if(!r->sect)
		return -1;

	/* Go to the from position. */
	sect = r->sect;
	rp = 0;
	while(rp + sect->nrunes < from){
		rp += sect->nrunes;
		sect = sect->next;
	}
	sp = from - rp;
	text = sect->text + sp;
	rp = from;

	/* Search backwards for a newline. */
	while(1){
		char ch[UTFmax];
		int rv;

		if(--sp < 0){
			sect = lastsection(r, sect);
			if(!sect)
				return -1;
			sp = sect->nrunes;
			text = sect->text + sp;
		}
		rp--;
		text--;

		rv = runetochar(ch, text);
		if(rv == 1 && ch[0] == '\n')
			return rp;
	}
}

long
nextnewline(Rasp *r, long from)
{
	Section *sect;
	Rune *text;
	long rp, sp;	/* Rasp, Section position */
			/* rp is the integer counterpart of text */

	if(!r->sect)
		return 0;

	/* Go to the from position. */
	sect = r->sect;
	rp = 0;
	while(rp + sect->nrunes < from){
		rp += sect->nrunes;
		sect = sect->next;
	}
	sp = from - rp;
	text = sect->text + sp;
	rp = from;

	/* Search for a newline. */
	while(1){
		char ch[UTFmax];
		int rv;

		rv = runetochar(ch, text);
		if(rv == 1 && ch[0] == '\n')
			return rp;

		if(++sp > sect->nrunes - 1){
			sect = sect->next;
			if(!sect)
				return r->nrunes;
			sp = 0;
			text = sect->text - 1;
		}
		rp++;
		text++;
	}

	return 0; /* Won't execute; silences a compiler warning. */
.
545a
	}else if(c == SCROLLKEY){
		long pn, nn, nnn;	/* Previous, next, next next newline */
		flushtyping(0);
		pn = prevnewline(&t->rasp, l->p0);
		nn = nextnewline(&t->rasp, l->p0);
		if(nn != t->rasp.nrunes)
			nnn = nextnewline(&t->rasp, nn + 1);
		else
			nnn = t->rasp.nrunes;
		/* pn may be -1. */
		a0 = (l->p0 - pn) + nn;
		a0 = a0 > nnn ? nnn : a0;
		flsetselect(l, a0, a0);
		center(l, a0);
	}else if(c == BACKSCROLLKEY){
		long ppn, pn;	/* Previous previous, previous newline */
		flushtyping(0);
		pn = prevnewline(&t->rasp, l->p0);
		if(pn != -1)
			ppn = prevnewline(&t->rasp, pn);
		else
			ppn = -1;
		if(pn == -1)
			a0 = 0;
		else{
			/* ppn may be -1. */
			a0 = (l->p0 - pn) + ppn;
			a0 = a0 > pn ? pn : a0;
		}
		flsetselect(l, a0, a0);
		center(l, a0);
.
526c
	}else if(c==PAGEUP){
.
522c
	if(c==PAGEDOWN){
.
w

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Martin Neubauer]

Hello,

I'm not quite convinced of the merit of that behaviour. The most direct
consequence is that it makes sam inconsistent with acme and rio windows.
While acme could be altered analogously, as soon as you've arrived at rio,
you're halfway to readline. I'm not sure anybody would want that. Besides,
personally I feel quit comfortable with sam as it is. If I want a line-based
editor there still is ed.

But by no means feel discouraged. After all, it's only my opinion. And even
though I don't think it's the way to for the general distribution, there may
be enough people using Plan 9 and sam who would appreciate your patch.

	Martin

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[erik quanstrom]

On Tue Nov 14 05:52:07 EST 2006, m.ne@gmx.net wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I'm not quite convinced of the merit of that behaviour. The most direct
> consequence is that it makes sam inconsistent with acme and rio windows.

that never stopped rob.

> While acme could be altered analogously, as soon as you've arrived at rio,
> you're halfway to readline. 

isn't that a bit of an overreaction?  readline is tens of kloc.  but it has it's 
benefits.  how else would a linux user learn how to reboot a cpu server. ☺

- erik

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Martin Neubauer]

* erik quanstrom (quanstro@coraid.com) wrote:
> isn't that a bit of an overreaction?  readline is tens of kloc.  but it has it's
> benefits.  how else would a linux user learn how to reboot a cpu server. ???

I'm just inherently pessimistic...

	Martin

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[erik quanstrom]

On Tue Nov 14 08:27:03 EST 2006, m.ne@gmx.net wrote:
> * erik quanstrom (quanstro@coraid.com) wrote:
> > isn't that a bit of an overreaction?  readline is tens of kloc.  but it has it's
> > benefits.  how else would a linux user learn how to reboot a cpu server. ???

for those who don't know, ^p reboots a cpu server.

- erik

Re: Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[David Leimbach]

On 11/14/06, erik quanstrom <quanstro@coraid.com> wrote:
> On Tue Nov 14 08:27:03 EST 2006, m.ne@gmx.net wrote:
> > * erik quanstrom (quanstro@coraid.com) wrote:
> > > isn't that a bit of an overreaction?  readline is tens of kloc.  but it has it's
> > > benefits.  how else would a linux user learn how to reboot a cpu server. ???
>
> for those who don't know, ^p reboots a cpu server.
>
> - erik
>

Dang, i've been using ^t^tr

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[ron minnich]

On 11/14/06, Martin Neubauer <m.ne@gmx.net> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm not quite convinced of the merit of that behaviour. The most direct
> consequence is that it makes sam inconsistent with acme and rio windows.

But maybe rio and acme are wrong.

I guess we can worry about internal consistency in plan 9, but fact
is, in the rest of the known universe, uparrow goes up a line,
downarrow goes down, they move the cursor.

We've got page up and page down; we could always use them. It was bad
enough when right arrow and left arrow did what they did ....

If we're halfway to readline, well, then, maybe people want it, and we
should have it, and not having it was a mistake all along.  You should
be different if it makes sense; otherwise, don't.

But the worst thing we can do is fall into the 'it's always worked
this way' mantra. At that point, you might as well be a Fortran
programmer.

ron

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[erik quanstrom]

On Tue Nov 14 08:25:37 EST 2006, rminnich@gmail.com wrote:
> I guess we can worry about internal consistency in plan 9, but fact
> is, in the rest of the known universe, uparrow goes up a line,
> downarrow goes down, they move the cursor.

who said we have to be like the rest of the world.  i thought the
point of plan 9 was to be different.  the rest of the world uses sockets
and nfs, too. ;-)

> But the worst thing we can do is fall into the 'it's always worked
> this way' mantra. At that point, you might as well be a Fortran
> programmer.

this is a goofy argument.  i haven't seen "we've always done it this
way" trotted out as an argument.  perhaps i missed it.

plus, are you really saying that if you don't want cursor keys, your
just an old fortran programmer in plan 9 disguise? ☺

- erik

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[ron minnich]

On 11/14/06, erik quanstrom <quanstro@coraid.com> wrote:

> who said we have to be like the rest of the world.  i thought the
> point of plan 9 was to be different.  the rest of the world uses sockets
> and nfs, too. ;-)

;-) taken :-)

we have to be, not just different, but better. Some aspects of Plan 9
strike me as different for difference's sake. I don't see a point to
it.


> this is a goofy argument.  i haven't seen "we've always done it this
> way" trotted out as an argument.  perhaps i missed it.

"If you change sam this way, it's inconsistent with rio and acme".

reads to me like
"But it's always worked this way".

> plus, are you really saying that if you don't want cursor keys, your
> just an old fortran programmer in plan 9 disguise? ☺

I'm just being difficult.

ron

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[erik quanstrom]

On Tue Nov 14 08:45:16 EST 2006, rminnich@gmail.com wrote:
> On 11/14/06, erik quanstrom <quanstro@coraid.com> wrote:
> 
> > who said we have to be like the rest of the world.  i thought the
> > point of plan 9 was to be different.  the rest of the world uses sockets
> > and nfs, too. ;-)
> 
> ;-) taken :-)
> 
> we have to be, not just different, but better. Some aspects of Plan 9
> strike me as different for difference's sake. I don't see a point to
> it.

i agree with this in general, but the cursor keys just don't bother me.
i actually never use them.  i was suprised that they go ⅓ of a page up
or ⅓ of a page down.

i'm always willing to give plan 9 the benefit of the doubt.  it's been
right more often that i have.  i thought unicode would be pretty 
unmanagable.  i thought it would end up looking like the wctomb stuff.  
i tried it and i'm pretty sure ken and rob prooved me wrong.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Martin Neubauer]

* ron minnich (rminnich@gmail.com) wrote:
> >this is a goofy argument.  i haven't seen "we've always done it this
> >way" trotted out as an argument.  perhaps i missed it.
>
> "If you change sam this way, it's inconsistent with rio and acme".
>
> reads to me like
> "But it's always worked this way".

I'm just questioning _gratuitious_ changes. One way to prevent those is to
kick loose a discussion about them. (Side effects may include complete loss
of focus on the subject at hand.)

Martin

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[maht]

Perhaps you long for a line printer and ^j and ^k or have played too
much nethack :)

Using up arrow and down arrow to scroll is IMHO (eventually) a better plan.

Jumping around the text based on the length of the lines and where the
nearest \r is seems odd now.

If I have a long line of wrapped text, pressing down arrow doesn't go
down one line, it goes down one paragraph, Lunix's vi's confusing
jumping cursor should tell you that.

YMMV of course.

But please, and I'm sure no-one will, don't change the cursor keys in Acme.

And while you discuss it, don't forget that Home and End are also
different in plan9 in that they refer to the document not the current line.

matt

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Joel Salomon]

> And while you discuss it, don't forget that Home and End are also
> different in plan9 in that they refer to the document not the current line.

Also don't forget what selecting text and hitting Backspace does…

Under Windows and lunix I've found myself selecting text, hitting
backspace—then hitting backspace again to delete the character rio
would have.  I guess that means I'm learning the Plan 9 Way™. ☺

--Joel

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[maht]

you're telling the UI to replace the current text with a backspace, and
as such the behaviour makes perfect sense :)

> Also don't forget what selecting text and hitting Backspace does…
>
> Under Windows and lunix I've found myself selecting text, hitting
> backspace—then hitting backspace again to delete the character rio
> would have.  I guess that means I'm learning the Plan 9 Way™. ☺
>
> --Joel

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Joey Makar]

Well, I am a long time vi user :)  I do understand why Plan9 is
mouse-based, I plan on picking up a copy of 'Tog on Interface', it's
just the behavior of the up/down keys were too jarring for me and page
up/down does the same thing anyways.

I don't use acme, but for rio windows making the up/down keys scroll
seems ok to me because the cursor would normally be on the bottom line
anyways.

To each his own :)

Joey


On 11/14/06, maht <mattmobile@proweb.co.uk> wrote:
> Perhaps you long for a line printer and ^j and ^k or have played too
> much nethack :)
>
> Using up arrow and down arrow to scroll is IMHO (eventually) a better plan.
>
> Jumping around the text based on the length of the lines and where the
> nearest \r is seems odd now.
>
> If I have a long line of wrapped text, pressing down arrow doesn't go
> down one line, it goes down one paragraph, Lunix's vi's confusing
> jumping cursor should tell you that.
>
> YMMV of course.
>
> But please, and I'm sure no-one will, don't change the cursor keys in Acme.
>
> And while you discuss it, don't forget that Home and End are also
> different in plan9 in that they refer to the document not the current line.
>
> matt
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[John Floren]

On 11/14/06, maht <mattmobile@proweb.co.uk> wrote:
> Perhaps you long for a line printer and ^j and ^k or have played too
> much nethack :)
>
> Using up arrow and down arrow to scroll is IMHO (eventually) a better plan.

I don't see what's wrong with an interface that allows you to move
forward or backwards a line/character without removing your hands from
the home row (emacs, vi). When I'm editing, removing my hands from the
home row is death. I don't want to have to take my hands away from the
typing position unless I'm doing something like copying and pasting
(which I don't do that often). Maybe I'm just emacs-broke; I often
find myself hitting ^N and ^P in Notepad or Firefox (argggh, no new
windows please, and no printing!).

> Jumping around the text based on the length of the lines and where the
> nearest \r is seems odd now.
>
> If I have a long line of wrapped text, pressing down arrow doesn't go
> down one line, it goes down one paragraph, Lunix's vi's confusing
> jumping cursor should tell you that.

Think about what you're saying here. A line is a string of characters
that ends with a special character (carriage return/line feed,
whatever your O.S. likes to do). If I'm sitting at an 80-column
terminal and I type 130 characters, my text may show up split across
two rows on the screen, but it's still one line. If I type a
600-character line, go to the start, and press ^N (assuming emacs), I
expect to be put at the character *after* the next newline, regardless
of what my screen is telling me.

> YMMV of course.
>
> But please, and I'm sure no-one will, don't change the cursor keys in Acme.
>
> And while you discuss it, don't forget that Home and End are also
> different in plan9 in that they refer to the document not the current line.
>
> matt
>

Yes, I'm a UNIX apologist. Bite my NFS-mounted core file ;-)
VMS, now, *there's* a horse of a different color. Plan 9 may not be
UNIX, but when you're looking at them from the far land of VMS, Plan 9
and UNIX melt into one big mush :-) You may all consider killing me,
as I considered converting my Plan 9 machine into a Linux-based
simh/VMS box until I found out that performance would be terrible.


John
--
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Russ Cox]

Days like this sure make me glad I read 9fans.

Russ

Re: Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[David Leimbach]

On 11/14/06, Russ Cox <rsc@swtch.com> wrote:
> Days like this sure make me glad I read 9fans.
>
> Russ
>

We need a UTF-8 encoding for sarcasm methinks.

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Matt]

> Think about what you're saying here. A line is a string of characters
> that ends with a special character (carriage return/line feed,
> whatever your O.S. likes to do).
I'm not a computer. I can't see \r  But when I have a string of 600
characters wrapped I can see multiple lines.

Word processors will move you up a screen line at a time. Vi (and the
patch) will move me up a paragraph at a time.

You do understand the difference ?


 > If I'm sitting at an 80-column terminal and I type 130 characters,

I don't use plan9 on an  80 column terminal.

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Harri Haataja]

On Tue, Nov 14, 2006 at 03:03:35PM -0500, John Floren wrote:
> On 11/14/06, maht <mattmobile@proweb.co.uk> wrote:
> Maybe I'm just emacs-broke; I often find myself hitting ^N and ^P in
> Notepad or Firefox (argggh, no new windows please, and no printing!).

Ever erase the form/dialog text lines with ^U? Remove words from same
with ^W and notice your focus wasn't on the right element or whatnot?

--
The problem is, there are so many things you can't say.
If you said them all you'd have no time left for your real work.
		-- http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[John Stalker]

I use both vi and sam, so my most common problem is typing ESC something
in sam and seeing all of my recent changes replaced by something.  Thank
god sam has a proper undo command.

John
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2006 at 03:03:35PM -0500, John Floren wrote:
> > On 11/14/06, maht <mattmobile@proweb.co.uk> wrote:
> > Maybe I'm just emacs-broke; I often find myself hitting ^N and ^P in
> > Notepad or Firefox (argggh, no new windows please, and no printing!).
>
> Ever erase the form/dialog text lines with ^U? Remove words from same
> with ^W and notice your focus wasn't on the right element or whatnot?
--
John Stalker
School of Mathematics
Trinity College Dublin
tel +353 1 896 1983
fax +353 1 896 2282

Re: Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[David Leimbach]

On 11/14/06, ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/14/06, erik quanstrom <quanstro@coraid.com> wrote:
>
> > who said we have to be like the rest of the world.  i thought the
> > point of plan 9 was to be different.  the rest of the world uses sockets
> > and nfs, too. ;-)
>
> ;-) taken :-)
>
> we have to be, not just different, but better. Some aspects of Plan 9
> strike me as different for difference's sake. I don't see a point to
> it.

I didn't immediately either.  However I've been organizing my data in
hierarchies thanks to the Unix filesystem for a long long time now,
people are starting to realize that searching for data based on
metadata and getting fuzzy results is sometimes better when you have
92 Terrabytes of data in your iMac.  Ok, that's an exaggeration, but
you get my point I'd hope.

I think a lot of the way editors were written in the 80s was due to
the fact that people probably didn't really "get" the mouse the way I
think it was intended to be uhm... gotten.

If you look back at the englebart demos, I see a lot of things that
make me think more of Acme than emacs or vi.  I also kind of want a
chording keyboard on my left now as a result.

The necessary momentum to make people change their minds on some
things can be really difficult to achieve, and sometimes the effort to
learn something better does distract from the focus of getting work
done.  In effect better becomes the enemy of good enough (Voltaire?)

So that's why people still use Fortran on giant MPI clusters :-).  And
why Lisp will never take over the world, and why Acme will always be
subject to patches to make cursors move with arrow keys.

I think it's just human nature.

Re: Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Sape Mullender]

> i thought the point of plan 9 was to be different.

No, the point of plan 9 is to be right.

	Sape

Re: Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[erik quanstrom]

touché.  

but i thought that was implied, since networking (e.g.) in unix
is clearly misguided.

also, what makes an operating system is not correctness, but
style.

- erik

On Tue Nov 14 13:21:45 EST 2006, sape@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
> > i thought the point of plan 9 was to be different.
> 
> No, the point of plan 9 is to be right.
> 
> 	Sape

Re: Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Bruce Ellis]

shoenberg's "Style and Idea" is a good reference.
he had lots of both, and knew how to distill them.
none of his music had ifdefs in it.

brucee

On 11/15/06, erik quanstrom <quanstro@coraid.com> wrote:
> touché.
>
> but i thought that was implied, since networking (e.g.) in unix
> is clearly misguided.
>
> also, what makes an operating system is not correctness, but
> style.
>
> - erik
>
> On Tue Nov 14 13:21:45 EST 2006, sape@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
> > > i thought the point of plan 9 was to be different.
> >
> > No, the point of plan 9 is to be right.
> >
> >       Sape
>

Re: Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Sape Mullender]

> shoenberg's "Style and Idea" is a good reference.
> he had lots of both, and knew how to distill them.
> none of his music had ifdefs in it.

But I discovered macro expansion in Rossini's Barbieri di Seviglia
Overture.  Where the woodwinds come in to do their second pa pa pa PAdam,
pa pa pa PAdam, Rossini, lazy bastard he was, merely circled the first
occurrence and drew arrows from each subsequent one.

	Sape

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Paul Lalonde]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

But that's good style - if he changes the fundamental theme, he can
fix it in just one place!

On 14-Nov-06, at 11:14 AM, Sape Mullender wrote:

>> shoenberg's "Style and Idea" is a good reference.
>> he had lots of both, and knew how to distill them.
>> none of his music had ifdefs in it.
>
> But I discovered macro expansion in Rossini's Barbieri di Seviglia
> Overture.  Where the woodwinds come in to do their second pa pa pa
> PAdam,
> pa pa pa PAdam, Rossini, lazy bastard he was, merely circled the first
> occurrence and drew arrows from each subsequent one.
>
> 	Sape
>

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Re: Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[rog]

> shoenberg's "Style and Idea" is a good reference.
> he had lots of both, and knew how to distill them.
> none of his music had ifdefs in it.

... but much of schoenberg's tone row based music is not
exactly what one might be called ``user friendly''.

Re: Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[csant]

>> shoenberg's "Style and Idea" is a good reference.
>> he had lots of both, and knew how to distill them.
>> none of his music had ifdefs in it.
>
> ... but much of schoenberg's tone row based music is not
> exactly what one might be called ``user friendly''.

...and the "user" here would be the performing musician, or rather the
listener?

Re: Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Bruce Ellis]

some people consider elevator music "user friendly".
i don't.  it's not the notes, it's what you do with them.

brucee

On 11/15/06, csant <csant@csant.info> wrote:
> >> shoenberg's "Style and Idea" is a good reference.
> >> he had lots of both, and knew how to distill them.
> >> none of his music had ifdefs in it.
> >
> > ... but much of schoenberg's tone row based music is not
> > exactly what one might be called ``user friendly''.
>
> ...and the "user" here would be the performing musician, or rather the
> listener?
>

Re: Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Bruce Ellis]

Berlioz recounts his first sighting of orchestral velum.

"oh what wonderful music can be written on this ..."

I had a similar reaction when I first sat in front of a blit,
and rob couldn't drag me away from it.  23 years later
I still embrace the simplicity.  A UI that isn't in your face.
I'd bannish the ctrl-key but sometimes you wanta reboot.

brucee

On 11/15/06, David Leimbach <leimy2k@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/14/06, ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 11/14/06, erik quanstrom <quanstro@coraid.com> wrote:
> >
> > > who said we have to be like the rest of the world.  i thought the
> > > point of plan 9 was to be different.  the rest of the world uses sockets
> > > and nfs, too. ;-)
> >
> > ;-) taken :-)
> >
> > we have to be, not just different, but better. Some aspects of Plan 9
> > strike me as different for difference's sake. I don't see a point to
> > it.
>
> I didn't immediately either.  However I've been organizing my data in
> hierarchies thanks to the Unix filesystem for a long long time now,
> people are starting to realize that searching for data based on
> metadata and getting fuzzy results is sometimes better when you have
> 92 Terrabytes of data in your iMac.  Ok, that's an exaggeration, but
> you get my point I'd hope.
>
> I think a lot of the way editors were written in the 80s was due to
> the fact that people probably didn't really "get" the mouse the way I
> think it was intended to be uhm... gotten.
>
> If you look back at the englebart demos, I see a lot of things that
> make me think more of Acme than emacs or vi.  I also kind of want a
> chording keyboard on my left now as a result.
>
> The necessary momentum to make people change their minds on some
> things can be really difficult to achieve, and sometimes the effort to
> learn something better does distract from the focus of getting work
> done.  In effect better becomes the enemy of good enough (Voltaire?)
>
> So that's why people still use Fortran on giant MPI clusters :-).  And
> why Lisp will never take over the world, and why Acme will always be
> subject to patches to make cursors move with arrow keys.
>
> I think it's just human nature.
>

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

On Nov 14, 2006, at 5:34 AM, erik quanstrom wrote:

> plus, are you really saying that if you don't want cursor keys, your
> just an old fortran programmer in plan 9 disguise?

Don't tell me you've never written a FORTRAN program that calls into  
curses :-)  Although that's not as bad as having to debug one after  
the fact ...

Anyway ... my take is that "page up" says – quite explicitly – go up  
more than a line, whereas the keyboard arrow keys have had the  
entrenched behaviour of "move one character cell in the stated  
direction" for as long as we've had glass terminals.  (The up-arrow  
vi vs. 3270 line-end column selection debate can take place else 
{where,when} :-)

Where is the research data that backs the claim that navigating via  
the mouse is more efficient than navigating via the keyboard?  I know  
my own experience says this is nonsense.  My physical context switch  
time between the keyboard and mouse is at least 300 ms; my fingers  
move quite a bit faster than that on the keyboard.  I know that when  
I'm in one of the two modes – kbd vs. mouse – I'm very quick in that  
context.  But as soon as I have to switch between them: yikes!  To  
bounce back and forth from typing source code to repositioning a few  
lines via the mouse to typing again is horribly inefficient.  And  
while I've come to grow and love acme over the last few months now  
that I use it regularly at work, that back-and-forth makes me want to  
hurl (only the keyboard and mouse, mostly, but there are days ...)

And chording on three-button mice that are really two-button+scroll- 
wheel is an exercise in carpal tunnel ... :-(

--lyndon

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[John Floren]

On 11/14/06, Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote:
> Where is the research data that backs the claim that navigating via
> the mouse is more efficient than navigating via the keyboard?  I know
> my own experience says this is nonsense.  My physical context switch
> time between the keyboard and mouse is at least 300 ms; my fingers
> move quite a bit faster than that on the keyboard.  I know that when
> I'm in one of the two modes – kbd vs. mouse – I'm very quick in that
> context.  But as soon as I have to switch between them: yikes!  To
> bounce back and forth from typing source code to repositioning a few
> lines via the mouse to typing again is horribly inefficient.  And
> while I've come to grow and love acme over the last few months now
> that I use it regularly at work, that back-and-forth makes me want to
> hurl (only the keyboard and mouse, mostly, but there are days ...)

Finally, another user that doesn't drink the mouse Kool-Aid; although
I use the mouse a moderate amount, using the mouse for cursor
positioning while editing code is indeed a terrible waste. I've looked
at the papers linked from the Plan 9 wiki about speed of mouse vs.
keyboard, and while it may be faster to go from point A to point B
using the mouse when A and B are far apart, the context switch and the
fact that often you're not moving that far kinda makes the point void.



John
-- 
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Russ Cox]

If you want to do everything with the keyboard,
you know where to find Emacs.
This mail is a good summary of the mouse timing argument:
http://9fans.net/archive/2002/04/313

When I'm doing a lot of typing and mouse motion
at the same time, I typically just type with one hand
and leave the other hand on the mouse.
It's not as fast but it's just fine.

In response to Lyndon's comment about chording
on a scroll wheel mouse, yes you definitely don't
want to do that.  It's well worth it to buy a good mouse.
I used to swear by the three-button Logitech ones
(I still have a stash) but now I prefer the IBM
three-button + scroll knob that has been mentioned
on the list before.
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-39116
Also IBM makes external mouse/keyboards with the
3-button thinkpad trackpoints on them.

Russ

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[John Floren]

On 11/15/06, Russ Cox <rsc@swtch.com> wrote:
> If you want to do everything with the keyboard,
> you know where to find Emacs.
> This mail is a good summary of the mouse timing argument:
> http://9fans.net/archive/2002/04/313
>
> When I'm doing a lot of typing and mouse motion
> at the same time, I typically just type with one hand
> and leave the other hand on the mouse.
> It's not as fast but it's just fine.
>
> In response to Lyndon's comment about chording
> on a scroll wheel mouse, yes you definitely don't
> want to do that.  It's well worth it to buy a good mouse.
> I used to swear by the three-button Logitech ones
> (I still have a stash) but now I prefer the IBM
> three-button + scroll knob that has been mentioned
> on the list before.
> http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-39116
> Also IBM makes external mouse/keyboards with the
> 3-button thinkpad trackpoints on them.
>
> Russ
>

When you think about it, if it drives you nuts using the mouse because
it feels slower, I'd say it's more productive to use the keyboard.
Besides, if using keys and commands requires more higher brain
activity, I guess you could say that emacs prevents Alzhiemer's.

Somehow, I got op in #plan9. Don't ask how, but here's some recent comments:
<fgb> I think I'm going to subscribe to some linux/ncurses/vi mailing
list to talk how better is using the mouse than up and down arrow keys
<fgb> hmm... if I do that maybe I get to be an op in #linux ;)

All I have to say is: DO IT.



John
--
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Gorka guardiola]

On 11/15/06, John Floren <slawmaster@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> When you think about it, if it drives you nuts using the mouse because
> it feels slower, I'd say it's more productive to use the keyboard.

It is what you get used to. The mouse used to drive me nuts. Now
the keyboard does. Anyway, when I use emacs I have to rest my fingers
now and then (not joking) and that is counter-productive too. The only
things I miss are macros which you can test interactively and so are
faster to get right than scripts/ Edit commands in some cases.

> Besides, if using keys and commands requires more higher brain
> activity, I guess you could say that emacs prevents Alzhiemer's.

I may go back to it when I start to feel senile.

> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

Tekelili Tekelili Nyarlotep Tekelili.
--
- curiosity sKilled the cat

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[David Arnold]

-->"Russ" == Russ Cox <rsc@swtch.com> writes:

  Russ> When I'm doing a lot of typing and mouse motion at the same
  Russ> time, I typically just type with one hand and leave the other
  Russ> hand on the mouse. It's not as fast but it's just fine.

i've always found mice inefficient.

my plan is to build a sprung foot-rest with two-dimensional tilt sensors
to replace my mouse.  i think it would need to be more like a joystick
than a mouse, probably with acceleration proportional to the tilt (and
pressure).

i haven't figured out the buttons yet: thumb-operated keys below the
space bar seems like the best option for me.

"when i get some spare time"




d

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[erik quanstrom]

it appears that ibm no longer produces these goodies,
unfortunately.  i would like to try a desktop trackpoint
keyboard.  especially if it could be used in conjunction
with a real mouse.

- erik

On Wed Nov 15 00:13:41 EST 2006, rsc@swtch.com wrote:
> http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-39116
> Also IBM makes external mouse/keyboards with the
> 3-button thinkpad trackpoints on them.
>
> Russ

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[plan9]

On Wed, Nov 15, 2006 at 09:49:56PM -0500, erik quanstrom wrote:
> On Wed Nov 15 00:13:41 EST 2006, rsc@swtch.com wrote:
>> http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-39116
>> Also IBM makes external mouse/keyboards with the
>> 3-button thinkpad trackpoints on them.
>
> it appears that ibm no longer produces these goodies,
> unfortunately.  i would like to try a desktop trackpoint
> keyboard.  especially if it could be used in conjunction
> with a real mouse.

Maybe they're not as good an idea as they seem.  According to Douglas and
Mithal, it's faster to reach for the mouse than to use a TrackPoint.
Isometric joysticks are too hard to control due to their sensitivity to
involuntary tremors in the actuating finger, which means you'll spend
more time trying to put the cursor where you want it that you'll save
by not reaching your hand to the mouse and back.

Still, it might be nice for gross movements like scrolling or selecting
a window.  Pie menus would be an ideal application.


The Effect of Reducing Homing Time on the Speed of a Finger-Controlled
Isometric Pointing Device [1]

Differences in Movement Microstructure of the Mouse and the Finger-Controlled
Isometric Joystick [2]

[1] http://portal.acm.org/ft_gateway.cfm?id=191805&type=pdf&coll=&dl=acm&CFID=15151515&CFTOKEN=6184618
[2] http://portal.acm.org/ft_gateway.cfm?id=238533&type=pdf

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Abhey Shah]

Well nobodies mentioned the fingerworks touchstream yet, but I thought
it was the ideal thing for acme/plan 9 use.
Basically it's two large touchpads that can be used as a keyboard and
mouse combined. You tap with a single finger on "buttons" painted onto
the keyboard, but using 2 fingers turns it into a mouse. Chording can
be programmed in by using 3 fingers.
Unfortunately the two founders are now working for apple and have
stopped making the keyboards (which occasionally crop up on ebay for
1000 pounds+).


On 16 Nov 2006, at 13:46, plan9@sigint.cs.purdue.edu wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 15, 2006 at 09:49:56PM -0500, erik quanstrom wrote:
>> On Wed Nov 15 00:13:41 EST 2006, rsc@swtch.com wrote:
>>> http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR
>>> -39116
>>> Also IBM makes external mouse/keyboards with the
>>> 3-button thinkpad trackpoints on them.
>>
>> it appears that ibm no longer produces these goodies,
>> unfortunately.  i would like to try a desktop trackpoint
>> keyboard.  especially if it could be used in conjunction
>> with a real mouse.
>
> Maybe they're not as good an idea as they seem.  According to Douglas
> and
> Mithal, it's faster to reach for the mouse than to use a TrackPoint.
> Isometric joysticks are too hard to control due to their sensitivity to
> involuntary tremors in the actuating finger, which means you'll spend
> more time trying to put the cursor where you want it that you'll save
> by not reaching your hand to the mouse and back.
>
> Still, it might be nice for gross movements like scrolling or selecting
> a window.  Pie menus would be an ideal application.
>
>
> The Effect of Reducing Homing Time on the Speed of a Finger-Controlled
> Isometric Pointing Device [1]
>
> Differences in Movement Microstructure of the Mouse and the
> Finger-Controlled
> Isometric Joystick [2]
>
> [1]
> http://portal.acm.org/ft_gateway.cfm?
> id=191805&type=pdf&coll=&dl=acm&CFID=15151515&CFTOKEN=6184618
> [2] http://portal.acm.org/ft_gateway.cfm?id=238533&type=pdf
>

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[erik quanstrom]

in a general sense, i'm sure this is correct.  but there are some special
cases that are pretty important.  like when you're fixing syntax errors,
you need easy access to the mouse without getting too far from ';'.

perhaps i should learn to mouse left-handed instead.

- erik

On Thu Nov 16 08:47:21 EST 2006, plan9@sigint.cs.purdue.edu wrote:
> Maybe they're not as good an idea as they seem.  According to Douglas and
> Mithal, it's faster to reach for the mouse than to use a TrackPoint.
> Isometric joysticks are too hard to control due to their sensitivity to
> involuntary tremors in the actuating finger, which means you'll spend
> more time trying to put the cursor where you want it that you'll save
> by not reaching your hand to the mouse and back.
>
> Still, it might be nice for gross movements like scrolling or selecting
> a window.  Pie menus would be an ideal application.

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Noah Evans]

Russ,

Would you or another acme wizard, be willing to put up a screen cast
of what you guys consider to be good acme and sam usage? I for one
would be very interested in seeing that, and it would do a lot of good
quieting the inevitable "mouse vs keyboard" arguments that pop up on
9fans every couple of months or so.

Noah

On 11/15/06, Russ Cox <rsc@swtch.com> wrote:
> If you want to do everything with the keyboard,
> you know where to find Emacs.
> This mail is a good summary of the mouse timing argument:
> http://9fans.net/archive/2002/04/313
>
> When I'm doing a lot of typing and mouse motion
> at the same time, I typically just type with one hand
> and leave the other hand on the mouse.
> It's not as fast but it's just fine.
>
> In response to Lyndon's comment about chording
> on a scroll wheel mouse, yes you definitely don't
> want to do that.  It's well worth it to buy a good mouse.
> I used to swear by the three-button Logitech ones
> (I still have a stash) but now I prefer the IBM
> three-button + scroll knob that has been mentioned
> on the list before.
> http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-39116
> Also IBM makes external mouse/keyboards with the
> 3-button thinkpad trackpoints on them.
>
> Russ
>

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Harri Haataja]

On Wed, Nov 15, 2006 at 12:13:08AM -0500, Russ Cox wrote:
> If you want to do everything with the keyboard,
> you know where to find Emacs.
For plan9/Inferno? No. Must have missed that.

I'm also somewhat convinced that holding down anything
is annoying, stressing and possibly damaging. I especially
hate waiting for chords and menus to work over a very high
latency drawterm connection. Sending something and waiting
for it to complete (keypress, click) is easier.

I have used vi/ed over quite massive lags. It's only annoying
if your mental model gets out of synch with the receiver :)

> Also IBM makes external mouse/keyboards with the
> 3-button thinkpad trackpoints on them.

That might be nice.

--
Comparing apples with oranges is perfectly reasonable when you've
decided to replace your apples with oranges.
	-- Juliusz Chroboczek, on darcs-users

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Russ Cox]

> I'm also somewhat convinced that holding down anything
> is annoying, stressing and possibly damaging. I especially
> hate waiting for chords and menus to work over a very high
> latency drawterm connection. Sending something and waiting
> for it to complete (keypress, click) is easier.

You want sam -r.  Now you know.

Russ

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Gabriel Diaz]

Hello

and having B running on the remote side is a great plus for sam -r :),
look for the tricks in 9fans archives.

gabi


On 1/30/07, Russ Cox <rsc@swtch.com> wrote:
> > I'm also somewhat convinced that holding down anything
> > is annoying, stressing and possibly damaging. I especially
> > hate waiting for chords and menus to work over a very high
> > latency drawterm connection. Sending something and waiting
> > for it to complete (keypress, click) is easier.
>
> You want sam -r.  Now you know.
>
> Russ
>

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

On Nov 14, 2006, at 8:43 PM, I wrote:

> Where is the research data that backs the claim that navigating via  
> the mouse is more efficient than navigating via the keyboard?  I  
> know my own experience says this is nonsense.  My physical context  
> switch time between the keyboard and mouse is at least 300 ms; my  
> fingers move quite a bit faster than that on the keyboard.  I know  
> that when I'm in one of the two modes – kbd vs. mouse – I'm very  
> quick in that context.  But as soon as I have to switch between  
> them: yikes!

I need to clarify this.  I'm not trying to claim that mouse and  
keyboard are exclusive.  What I notice are the patterns of behaviour  
of how I use the mouse/kbd vs. what I'm trying to accomplish.

To shoot down the claim in my last message, I find mouse-B3 in the  
compiler diagnostics window combined with a left-hand-on-the-keyboard  
attack to be *very* efficient.  I'm trying to understand why.  It's  
as if there is overlapped context (ala overlapped I/O) going on, it  
works for me.  But as soon as I have to shut down both hands, well,  
to quote Boyd: I'm fucked.

I'll note that I can't play piano (two handed) either, so maybe this  
is just a mental block.

Asking for the research data isn't rhetorical.  Having read the P9  
papers, and having experienced the underlying environment, I'm  
conflicted.  Some of it works (for me), and some doesn't.  I just  
want to know why (and why not).

And I do know where to find emacs, Russ.  But thanks for asking :-)   
(I too no longer know where to find the 3-button Logitech's.  I  
stopped at London Drugs on the way home from work today.  They've  
never let me down before, but today, alas ...)

--lyndon

Re: Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[David Leimbach]

>
> And I do know where to find emacs, Russ.  But thanks for asking :-)
> (I too no longer know where to find the 3-button Logitech's.  I
> stopped at London Drugs on the way home from work today.  They've
> never let me down before, but today, alas ...)
>

It's a bit pricey, but I love this trackball.  I don't like really
using anything else.

http://www.amazon.com/Kensington-Expert-Mouse-Optical-Trackball/dp/B00009KH63/sr=8-1/qid=1163607770/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-0020716-2518348?ie=UTF8&s=electronics

4 buttons, a scroll ring and a wrist wrest, and I can chord copy and
paste in Mac OS X with the software (for 2 pairs of buttons anyway)
and configure it on a per-application basis.

It's pretty neat.

> --lyndon

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Martin Neubauer]

* ron minnich (rminnich@gmail.com) wrote:
> On 11/14/06, Martin Neubauer <m.ne@gmx.net> wrote:
> >Hello,
> >
> >I'm not quite convinced of the merit of that behaviour. The most direct
> >consequence is that it makes sam inconsistent with acme and rio windows.
>
> But maybe rio and acme are wrong.

Then so is sam (the standard one).

>
> I guess we can worry about internal consistency in plan 9, but fact
> is, in the rest of the known universe, uparrow goes up a line,
> downarrow goes down, they move the cursor.

Don't I know it. Admittedly, it took me a while to get used to the way it
is, but the fact is I _like_ it that way. The last thing I want to start is
a cursor war. (I try to keep in mind I'm still considering my computer
ideology-free.)

>
> We've got page up and page down; we could always use them. It was bad
> enough when right arrow and left arrow did what they did ....
>
> If we're halfway to readline, well, then, maybe people want it, and we
> should have it, and not having it was a mistake all along.  You should
> be different if it makes sense; otherwise, don't.
>
> But the worst thing we can do is fall into the 'it's always worked
> this way' mantra. At that point, you might as well be a Fortran
> programmer.

There isn't much to do than to agree with that. Perhaps I should work on not
getting around as too harsh. I didn't want to dismiss the change per se, but
just state my current opinion (which is liable to change any time without
prior notice).

	Martin

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Wes Kussmaul]

Ron, you are the missing link between rational programming and
montaigne-ism (living with the living.)

Are you swinging by here on your way back from Tampa?

Wes
>
> But maybe rio and acme are wrong.
>
> I guess we can worry about internal consistency in plan 9, but fact
> is, in the rest of the known universe, uparrow goes up a line,
> downarrow goes down, they move the cursor.
>
> We've got page up and page down; we could always use them. It was bad
> enough when right arrow and left arrow did what they did ....
>
> If we're halfway to readline, well, then, maybe people want it, and we
> should have it, and not having it was a mistake all along.  You should
> be different if it makes sense; otherwise, don't.
>
> But the worst thing we can do is fall into the 'it's always worked
> this way' mantra. At that point, you might as well be a Fortran
> programmer.
>
> ron
>

Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[Wes Kussmaul]

Sorry, that was supposed to be private.

Wes Kussmaul wrote:
>
> Ron, you are the missing link between rational programming and
> montaigne-ism (living with the living.)
>
> Are you swinging by here on your way back from Tampa?
>
> Wes
>>
>> But maybe rio and acme are wrong.
>>
>> I guess we can worry about internal consistency in plan 9, but fact
>> is, in the rest of the known universe, uparrow goes up a line,
>> downarrow goes down, they move the cursor.
>>
>> We've got page up and page down; we could always use them. It was bad
>> enough when right arrow and left arrow did what they did ....
>>
>> If we're halfway to readline, well, then, maybe people want it, and we
>> should have it, and not having it was a mistake all along.  You should
>> be different if it makes sense; otherwise, don't.
>>
>> But the worst thing we can do is fall into the 'it's always worked
>> this way' mantra. At that point, you might as well be a Fortran
>> programmer.
>>
>> ron
>>
>
>

Re: Re: [9fans] Samterm up down key patch

[David Leimbach]

On 11/14/06, ron minnich <rminnich@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/14/06, Martin Neubauer <m.ne@gmx.net> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I'm not quite convinced of the merit of that behaviour. The most direct
> > consequence is that it makes sam inconsistent with acme and rio windows.
>
> But maybe rio and acme are wrong.
>
> I guess we can worry about internal consistency in plan 9, but fact
> is, in the rest of the known universe, uparrow goes up a line,
> downarrow goes down, they move the cursor.
>
> We've got page up and page down; we could always use them. It was bad
> enough when right arrow and left arrow did what they did ....
>
> If we're halfway to readline, well, then, maybe people want it, and we
> should have it, and not having it was a mistake all along.  You should
> be different if it makes sense; otherwise, don't.
>
> But the worst thing we can do is fall into the 'it's always worked
> this way' mantra. At that point, you might as well be a Fortran
> programmer.

But isn't that just what you're saying?  You're used to the way
everyone else does everything, so therefore this new way is wrong?  My
original PCs didn't have mice, and I really don't think the first
mouse intefaces I had on DOS were that good.

What Acme does with the mouse is a big step from what any other editor
I've used has tried to do with it, in terms of the clickable text,
chord-based editing and the way it makes you think differently about
the keyboard.

I agree it takes a good deal of discipline to learn to use acme the
way it is effectively if you come from a different background, and I'm
by no means an expert (see my winclear script... :-) ) but I'm trying
to learn it the way it was meant to be used, and I find surprises that
make me wish Emacs were more like it sometimes.  (especially in
simplicity)

However, it's very clear that people are always going to want to morph
Sam and Acme into the editor they're used to, so why doesn't someone
either fork it, or make some editors that are more familiar to these
folks.  Acme will still be useful to those who know it, and there will
probably always be an Acme community or is there fear of the loss of
that too?

>
> ron
>