\showmakeup adds unwanted space despite accurate readings; \qquad mandatory before \TeX\

\showmakeup adds unwanted space despite accurate readings; \qquad mandatory before \TeX\

[Carlos]

\showmakeup on \TeX\ shows a 

tSP:3.282
THK:-1.721
H__E
X
HK:-1.291
SP:3.282

I assume that SP stands for space. Correct me if I'm wrong

After reading some of the manuals that mention \showmakeup with and
without [spaces] and so forth, I couldn't find any more info related
to this.

If anyone can provide me more information as to what does HK means there? 

Anyhow

If I were to have, say, a control _word_ such as \TeX\, the sequence of
TeX kerning is thrown off. The only remedy would be to have a a \qquad
preceding the control sequence e.g., {\qquad
\TeX\ significantly} to sort of ameliorate this side-effect. But then
again. Spacing is off. e.g., 

The separation of any of these four components would have
hurt {\qquad\TeX\ significantly}. If I had not participated fully in

But it's interesting that \showmakeup, kerning and spaces would
display what's to be expected. And yet, the aformentioned set of  

tSP:3.282
THK:-1.721
H__E
X
HK:-1.291
SP:3.282

is accurate nevertheless. And a very nice implementation at that,
but one I fear can't be included on a final document either.

With that being said, the introduction of a \qquad, in addition to
\showmakeup with, say, redundancy aside, whatever is preceding the \TeX\
alongside the file would also introduce a space where no space was ever
there before.

Because of all of this, and unfortunately, \showmakeup is not quite helpful
here either. Although it does so displays the amount of spaces and
so forth, any addition of a \qquad also adds a very subtle unwanted
space.

And since we're looking here, I pressume, solely for accuracy and
perfection, we're left here with neither: zero, zip. It evaporates.


-- 
Dear Emily:
	I'm still confused as to what groups articles should be posted
to.  How about an example?
		-- Still Confused

Dear Still:
	Ok.  Let's say you want to report that Gretzky has been traded from
the Oilers to the Kings.  Now right away you might think rec.sport.hockey
would be enough.  WRONG.  Many more people might be interested.  This is a
big trade!  Since it's a NEWS article, it belongs in the news.* hierarchy
as well.  If you are a news admin, or there is one on your machine, try
news.admin.  If not, use news.misc.
	The Oilers are probably interested in geology, so try sci.physics.
He is a big star, so post to sci.astro, and sci.space because they are also
interested in stars.  Next, his name is Polish sounding.  So post to
soc.culture.polish.  But that group doesn't exist, so cross-post to
news.groups suggesting it should be created.  With this many groups of
interest, your article will be quite bizarre, so post to talk.bizarre as
well.  (And post to comp.std.mumps, since they hardly get any articles
there, and a "comp" group will propagate your article further.)
	You may also find it is more fun to post the article once in each
group.  If you list all the newsgroups in the same article, some newsreaders
will only show the article to the reader once!  Don't tolerate this.
		-- Emily Postnews Answers Your Questions on Netiquette

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: \showmakeup adds unwanted space despite accurate readings; \qquad mandatory before \TeX\

[Carlos]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3872 bytes --]

On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 09:18:35AM -0400, Carlos wrote:
> \showmakeup on \TeX\ shows a 
> 
> tSP:3.282
> THK:-1.721
> H__E
> X
> HK:-1.291
> SP:3.282
> 
> I assume that SP stands for space. Correct me if I'm wrong
> 
> After reading some of the manuals that mention \showmakeup with and
> without [spaces] and so forth, I couldn't find any more info related
> to this.
> 
> If anyone can provide me more information as to what does HK means there? 
> 
> Anyhow
> 
> If I were to have, say, a control _word_ such as \TeX\, the sequence of
> TeX kerning is thrown off. The only remedy would be to have a a \qquad
> preceding the control sequence e.g., {\qquad
> \TeX\ significantly} to sort of ameliorate this side-effect. But then
> again. Spacing is off. e.g., 
> 
> The separation of any of these four components would have
> hurt {\qquad\TeX\ significantly}. If I had not participated fully in
> 
> But it's interesting that \showmakeup, kerning and spaces would
> display what's to be expected. And yet, the aformentioned set of  
> 
> tSP:3.282
> THK:-1.721
> H__E
> X
> HK:-1.291
> SP:3.282
> 
> is accurate nevertheless. And a very nice implementation at that,
> but one I fear can't be included on a final document either.
> 
> With that being said, the introduction of a \qquad, in addition to
> \showmakeup with, say, redundancy aside, whatever is preceding the \TeX\
> alongside the file would also introduce a space where no space was ever
> there before.
> 
> Because of all of this, and unfortunately, \showmakeup is not quite helpful
> here either. Although it does so displays the amount of spaces and
> so forth, any addition of a \qquad also adds a very subtle unwanted
> space.
> 
> And since we're looking here, I pressume, solely for accuracy and
> perfection, we're left here with neither: zero, zip. It evaporates.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dear Emily:
> 	I'm still confused as to what groups articles should be posted
> to.  How about an example?
> 		-- Still Confused
> 
> Dear Still:
> 	Ok.  Let's say you want to report that Gretzky has been traded from
> the Oilers to the Kings.  Now right away you might think rec.sport.hockey
> would be enough.  WRONG.  Many more people might be interested.  This is a
> big trade!  Since it's a NEWS article, it belongs in the news.* hierarchy
> as well.  If you are a news admin, or there is one on your machine, try
> news.admin.  If not, use news.misc.
> 	The Oilers are probably interested in geology, so try sci.physics.
> He is a big star, so post to sci.astro, and sci.space because they are also
> interested in stars.  Next, his name is Polish sounding.  So post to
> soc.culture.polish.  But that group doesn't exist, so cross-post to
> news.groups suggesting it should be created.  With this many groups of
> interest, your article will be quite bizarre, so post to talk.bizarre as
> well.  (And post to comp.std.mumps, since they hardly get any articles
> there, and a "comp" group will propagate your article further.)
> 	You may also find it is more fun to post the article once in each
> group.  If you list all the newsgroups in the same article, some newsreaders
> will only show the article to the reader once!  Don't tolerate this.
> 		-- Emily Postnews Answers Your Questions on Netiquette
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : https://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 

-- 
As of next Tuesday, C will be flushed in favor of COBOL.
Please update your programs.

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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wiki     : https://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: \showmakeup adds unwanted space despite accurate readings; \qquad mandatory before \TeX\

[Carlos]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2661 bytes --]

On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 09:32:51AM -0400, Carlos wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 09:18:35AM -0400, Carlos wrote:
> > \showmakeup on \TeX\ shows a 
> > 
> > tSP:3.282
> > THK:-1.721
> > H__E
> > X
> > HK:-1.291
> > SP:3.282
> > 
> > I assume that SP stands for space. Correct me if I'm wrong
> > 
> > After reading some of the manuals that mention \showmakeup with and
> > without [spaces] and so forth, I couldn't find any more info related
> > to this.
> > 
> > If anyone can provide me more information as to what does HK means there? 
> > 
> > Anyhow
> > 
> > If I were to have, say, a control _word_ such as \TeX\, the sequence of
> > TeX kerning is thrown off. The only remedy would be to have a a \qquad
> > preceding the control sequence e.g., {\qquad
> > \TeX\ significantly} to sort of ameliorate this side-effect. But then
> > again. Spacing is off. e.g., 
> > 
> > The separation of any of these four components would have
> > hurt {\qquad\TeX\ significantly}. If I had not participated fully in
> > 
> > But it's interesting that \showmakeup, kerning and spaces would
> > display what's to be expected. And yet, the aformentioned set of  
> > 
> > tSP:3.282
> > THK:-1.721
> > H__E
> > X
> > HK:-1.291
> > SP:3.282
> > 
> > is accurate nevertheless. And a very nice implementation at that,
> > but one I fear can't be included on a final document either.
> > 
> > With that being said, the introduction of a \qquad, in addition to
> > \showmakeup with, say, redundancy aside, whatever is preceding the \TeX\
> > alongside the file would also introduce a space where no space was ever
> > there before.
> > 
> > Because of all of this, and unfortunately, \showmakeup is not quite helpful
> > here either. Although it does so displays the amount of spaces and
> > so forth, any addition of a \qquad also adds a very subtle unwanted
> > space.

this is the space I referred to here. Please see the attached screenshot

> > 
> > And since we're looking here, I pressume, solely for accuracy and
> > perfection, we're left here with neither: zero, zip. It evaporates.
> > 
> > 

> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : https://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________


-- 
It's ten o'clock; do you know where your processes are?

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : https://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: \showmakeup adds unwanted space despite accurate readings; \qquad mandatory before \TeX\

[Hans Hagen]

On 7/5/2023 3:18 PM, Carlos wrote:
> \showmakeup on \TeX\ shows a
> 
> tSP:3.282
> THK:-1.721
> H__E
> X
> HK:-1.291
> SP:3.282

no MWE includes so clueless

  > I assume that SP stands for space. Correct me if I'm wrong
> 
> After reading some of the manuals that mention \showmakeup with and
> without [spaces] and so forth, I couldn't find any more info related
> to this.
> 
> If anyone can provide me more information as to what does HK means there?

horizontal kern

> Anyhow
> 
> If I were to have, say, a control _word_ such as \TeX\, the sequence of
> TeX kerning is thrown off. The only remedy would be to have a a \qquad
> preceding the control sequence e.g., {\qquad
> \TeX\ significantly} to sort of ameliorate this side-effect. But then
> again. Spacing is off. e.g.,

no MWE so a space cam come from anywhwere

> The separation of any of these four components would have
> hurt {\qquad\TeX\ significantly}. If I had not participated fully in

x{\showmakeup[glue]x\qquad x}x

imo \qquad is okay

> But it's interesting that \showmakeup, kerning and spaces would
> display what's to be expected. And yet, the aformentioned set of
> 
> tSP:3.282
> THK:-1.721
> H__E
> X
> HK:-1.291
> SP:3.282
> 
> is accurate nevertheless. And a very nice implementation at that,
> but one I fear can't be included on a final document either.
> 
> With that being said, the introduction of a \qquad, in addition to
> \showmakeup with, say, redundancy aside, whatever is preceding the \TeX\
> alongside the file would also introduce a space where no space was ever
> there before.
> 
> Because of all of this, and unfortunately, \showmakeup is not quite helpful
> here either. Although it does so displays the amount of spaces and
> so forth, any addition of a \qquad also adds a very subtle unwanted
> space.

qquad is not that subtle: 2em

> And since we're looking here, I pressume, solely for accuracy and
> perfection, we're left here with neither: zero, zip. It evaporates.
puzzled

 > Dear Emily:
 >	I'm still confused as to what groups articles should be posted
 > to.  How about an example?
 >		-- Still Confused
 >
 > Dear Still:

can we omit these confusing additions in mails to the list? looks / 
sounds like a 'bot' to me

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : https://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: \showmakeup adds unwanted space despite accurate readings; \qquad mandatory before \TeX\

[Carlos]

On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 04:43:56PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 7/5/2023 3:18 PM, Carlos wrote:
> > \showmakeup on \TeX\ shows a
> > 
> > tSP:3.282
> > THK:-1.721
> > H__E
> > X
> > HK:-1.291
> > SP:3.282
> 
> no MWE includes so clueless

\starttypescript[mylucidaserif]
  \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightRegular]    [file:LucidaBrightRegular]
  \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightItalic]     [file:LucidaBrightItalic]
  \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightDemiBold]       [file:LucidaBrightDemiBold]
  \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightDemiItalic] [file:LucidaBrightDemiItalic]
\stoptypescript

\starttypescript [mylucidaserif]
  \setups[font:fallback:serif]
  \definefontsynonym[Serif]                [LucidaBrightRegular]    [features=default]
  \definefontsynonym[SerifItalic]          [LucidaBrightItalic]     [features=default]
  \definefontsynonym[SerifBold]            [LucidaBrightDemiBold]       [features=default]
  \definefontsynonym[SerifBoldItalic]      [LucidaBrightDemiItalic] [features=default]
\stoptypescript

\starttypescript[mylucidasans]
  \definefontsynonym[LucidaSansRegular]    [file:LucidaSansRegular]
  \definefontsynonym[LucidaSansOblique]    [file:LucidaSansOblique]
  \definefontsynonym[LucidaSansDemiBold]    [file:LucidaSansDemiBold]
\stoptypescript

\starttypescript[mylucidasans]
  \setups[font:fallback:sans]
  \definefontsynonym[Sans]      [LucidaSansRegular] [features=default]
  \definefontsynonym[LucidaSansItalic]      [LucidaSansOblique] [features=default]
  \definefontsynonym[LucidaSansSansBold]      [LucidaSansDemiBold] [features=default]
\stoptypescript

\starttypescript [mylucidaserif]
  \definetypeface [mylucidaserif]    [rm] [serif] [mylucidaserif]    [default]
  \definetypeface [mylucidaserif]    [ss] [sans] [mylucidasans]    [default]
\stoptypescript

\setupbodyfont[mylucidaserif]
%\setupbodyfont[mylucidasans]
%\setupbodyfont[14pt]

\starttext

Thus, I came to the conclusion that the designer of a new
system must not only be the implementer and first
large||scale user; the designer should also write the first
user manual.

The separation of any of these four components would have
hurt \TeX\ significantly. If I had not participated fully in
all these activities, literally hundreds of improvements
would never have been made, because I would never have
thought of them or perceived why they were important.

But a system cannot be successful if it is too strongly
influenced by a single person. Once the initial design is
complete and fairly robust, the real test begins as people
with many different viewpoints undertake their own
experiments.

\stoptext

> 
>  > I assume that SP stands for space. Correct me if I'm wrong
> > 
> > After reading some of the manuals that mention \showmakeup with and
> > without [spaces] and so forth, I couldn't find any more info related
> > to this.
> > 
> > If anyone can provide me more information as to what does HK means there?
> 
> horizontal kern

thanks 

(sorry for duplicate messages. sending out to mailing list works
sporadically Sometimes works, other times doesn't).
> 
> > Anyhow
> > 
> > If I were to have, say, a control _word_ such as \TeX\, the sequence of
> > TeX kerning is thrown off. The only remedy would be to have a a \qquad
> > preceding the control sequence e.g., {\qquad
> > \TeX\ significantly} to sort of ameliorate this side-effect. But then
> > again. Spacing is off. e.g.,
> 
> no MWE so a space cam come from anywhwere
> 
> > The separation of any of these four components would have
> > hurt {\qquad\TeX\ significantly}. If I had not participated fully in
> 
> x{\showmakeup[glue]x\qquad x}x
> 
> imo \qquad is okay
> 
> > But it's interesting that \showmakeup, kerning and spaces would
> > display what's to be expected. And yet, the aformentioned set of
> > 
> > tSP:3.282
> > THK:-1.721
> > H__E
> > X
> > HK:-1.291
> > SP:3.282
> > 
> > is accurate nevertheless. And a very nice implementation at that,
> > but one I fear can't be included on a final document either.
> > 
> > With that being said, the introduction of a \qquad, in addition to
> > \showmakeup with, say, redundancy aside, whatever is preceding the \TeX\
> > alongside the file would also introduce a space where no space was ever
> > there before.
> > 
> > Because of all of this, and unfortunately, \showmakeup is not quite helpful
> > here either. Although it does so displays the amount of spaces and
> > so forth, any addition of a \qquad also adds a very subtle unwanted
> > space.
> 
> qquad is not that subtle: 2em
> 
> > And since we're looking here, I pressume, solely for accuracy and
> > perfection, we're left here with neither: zero, zip. It evaporates.
> puzzled
> 
> > Dear Emily:
> >	I'm still confused as to what groups articles should be posted
> > to.  How about an example?
> >		-- Still Confused
> >
> > Dear Still:
> 
> can we omit these confusing additions in mails to the list? looks / sounds
> like a 'bot' to me
> 
> Hans
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : https://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 

-- 
Imagine that Cray computer decides to make a personal computer.  It has
a 150 MHz processor, 200 megabytes of RAM, 1500 megabytes of disk
storage, a screen resolution of 4096 x 4096 pixels, relies entirely on
voice recognition for input, fits in your shirt pocket and costs $300.
What's the first question that the computer community asks?

"Is it PC compatible?"

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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wiki     : https://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: \showmakeup adds unwanted space despite accurate readings; \qquad mandatory before \TeX\

[Carlos]

On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 11:53:47AM -0400, Carlos wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 04:43:56PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> > On 7/5/2023 3:18 PM, Carlos wrote:
> > > \showmakeup on \TeX\ shows a
> > > 
> > > tSP:3.282
> > > THK:-1.721
> > > H__E
> > > X
> > > HK:-1.291
> > > SP:3.282
> > 
> > no MWE includes so clueless
> 
> \starttypescript[mylucidaserif]
>   \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightRegular]    [file:LucidaBrightRegular]
>   \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightItalic]     [file:LucidaBrightItalic]
>   \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightDemiBold]       [file:LucidaBrightDemiBold]
>   \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightDemiItalic] [file:LucidaBrightDemiItalic]
> \stoptypescript
> 
> \starttypescript [mylucidaserif]
>   \setups[font:fallback:serif]
>   \definefontsynonym[Serif]                [LucidaBrightRegular]    [features=default]
>   \definefontsynonym[SerifItalic]          [LucidaBrightItalic]     [features=default]
>   \definefontsynonym[SerifBold]            [LucidaBrightDemiBold]       [features=default]
>   \definefontsynonym[SerifBoldItalic]      [LucidaBrightDemiItalic] [features=default]
> \stoptypescript
> 
> \starttypescript[mylucidasans]
>   \definefontsynonym[LucidaSansRegular]    [file:LucidaSansRegular]
>   \definefontsynonym[LucidaSansOblique]    [file:LucidaSansOblique]
>   \definefontsynonym[LucidaSansDemiBold]    [file:LucidaSansDemiBold]
> \stoptypescript
> 
> \starttypescript[mylucidasans]
>   \setups[font:fallback:sans]
>   \definefontsynonym[Sans]      [LucidaSansRegular] [features=default]
>   \definefontsynonym[LucidaSansItalic]      [LucidaSansOblique] [features=default]
>   \definefontsynonym[LucidaSansSansBold]      [LucidaSansDemiBold] [features=default]
> \stoptypescript
> 
> \starttypescript [mylucidaserif]
>   \definetypeface [mylucidaserif]    [rm] [serif] [mylucidaserif]    [default]
>   \definetypeface [mylucidaserif]    [ss] [sans] [mylucidasans]    [default]
> \stoptypescript
> 
> \setupbodyfont[mylucidaserif]
> %\setupbodyfont[mylucidasans]
> %\setupbodyfont[14pt]
> 
> \starttext
> 
> Thus, I came to the conclusion that the designer of a new
> system must not only be the implementer and first
> large||scale user; the designer should also write the first
> user manual.
> 
> The separation of any of these four components would have
> hurt \TeX\ significantly. If I had not participated fully in
> all these activities, literally hundreds of improvements
> would never have been made, because I would never have
> thought of them or perceived why they were important.
> 
> But a system cannot be successful if it is too strongly
> influenced by a single person. Once the initial design is
> complete and fairly robust, the real test begins as people
> with many different viewpoints undertake their own
> experiments.
> 
> \stoptext

Loading only one font this time around, but it makes no difference. 

Also. thought of forgot to mention that the above with
\starttypescript[mylucida] or \starttypescript [mylucida]
yields the same results every time  

and here is the log 

system          > 
system          > ConTeXt  ver: 2023.06.04 18:58 LMTX  fmt: 2023.6.5  int: english/english
system          > 
system          > 'cont-new.mkxl' loaded
open source     > level 1, order 1, name '/context-lmtx-2/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/cont-new.mkxl'
system          > beware: some patches loaded from cont-new.mkiv
close source    > level 1, order 1, name '/context-lmtx-2/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/cont-new.mkxl'
system          > files > jobname './atestinlucida-OTF-99', input './atestinlucida-OTF-99.mkiv', result './atestinlucida-OTF-99'
fonts           > latin modern fonts are not preloaded
languages       > language 'en' is active
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> 
> > 
> >  > I assume that SP stands for space. Correct me if I'm wrong
> > > 
> > > After reading some of the manuals that mention \showmakeup with and
> > > without [spaces] and so forth, I couldn't find any more info related
> > > to this.
> > > 
> > > If anyone can provide me more information as to what does HK means there?
> > 
> > horizontal kern
> 
> thanks 
> 
> (sorry for duplicate messages. sending out to mailing list works
> sporadically Sometimes works, other times doesn't).
> > 
> > > Anyhow
> > > 
> > > If I were to have, say, a control _word_ such as \TeX\, the sequence of
> > > TeX kerning is thrown off. The only remedy would be to have a a \qquad
> > > preceding the control sequence e.g., {\qquad
> > > \TeX\ significantly} to sort of ameliorate this side-effect. But then
> > > again. Spacing is off. e.g.,
> > 
> > no MWE so a space cam come from anywhwere
> > 
> > > The separation of any of these four components would have
> > > hurt {\qquad\TeX\ significantly}. If I had not participated fully in
> > 
> > x{\showmakeup[glue]x\qquad x}x
> > 
> > imo \qquad is okay
> > 
> > > But it's interesting that \showmakeup, kerning and spaces would
> > > display what's to be expected. And yet, the aformentioned set of
> > > 
> > > tSP:3.282
> > > THK:-1.721
> > > H__E
> > > X
> > > HK:-1.291
> > > SP:3.282
> > > 
> > > is accurate nevertheless. And a very nice implementation at that,
> > > but one I fear can't be included on a final document either.
> > > 
> > > With that being said, the introduction of a \qquad, in addition to
> > > \showmakeup with, say, redundancy aside, whatever is preceding the \TeX\
> > > alongside the file would also introduce a space where no space was ever
> > > there before.
> > > 
> > > Because of all of this, and unfortunately, \showmakeup is not quite helpful
> > > here either. Although it does so displays the amount of spaces and
> > > so forth, any addition of a \qquad also adds a very subtle unwanted
> > > space.
> > 
> > qquad is not that subtle: 2em
> > 
> > > And since we're looking here, I pressume, solely for accuracy and
> > > perfection, we're left here with neither: zero, zip. It evaporates.
> > puzzled
> > 
> > > Dear Emily:
> > >	I'm still confused as to what groups articles should be posted
> > > to.  How about an example?
> > >		-- Still Confused
> > >
> > > Dear Still:
> > 
> > can we omit these confusing additions in mails to the list? looks / sounds
> > like a 'bot' to me
> > 
> > Hans
> > 
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> >                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
> >               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
> >        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > ___________________________________________________________________________________
> > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> > 
> > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> > webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> > archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> > wiki     : https://contextgarden.net
> > ___________________________________________________________________________________
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Imagine that Cray computer decides to make a personal computer.  It has
> a 150 MHz processor, 200 megabytes of RAM, 1500 megabytes of disk
> storage, a screen resolution of 4096 x 4096 pixels, relies entirely on
> voice recognition for input, fits in your shirt pocket and costs $300.
> What's the first question that the computer community asks?
> 
> "Is it PC compatible?"
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : https://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 

-- 
Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code.
		-- Dave Olson

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Re: \showmakeup adds unwanted space despite accurate readings; \qquad mandatory before \TeX\

[Hans Hagen]

On 7/5/2023 5:53 PM, Carlos wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 04:43:56PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> On 7/5/2023 3:18 PM, Carlos wrote:
>>> \showmakeup on \TeX\ shows a
>>>
>>> tSP:3.282
>>> THK:-1.721
>>> H__E
>>> X
>>> HK:-1.291
>>> SP:3.282
>>
>> no MWE includes so clueless
> 
> \starttypescript[mylucidaserif]
>    \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightRegular]    [file:LucidaBrightRegular]
>    \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightItalic]     [file:LucidaBrightItalic]
>    \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightDemiBold]       [file:LucidaBrightDemiBold]
>    \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightDemiItalic] [file:LucidaBrightDemiItalic]
> \stoptypescript
Hm, isn't that this lucida rip off again? Maybe bad metricks then but 
I'm not going to look into that as the official TUG lucida opentype 
fonts perform okay.

Hans


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

___________________________________________________________________________________
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: \showmakeup adds unwanted space despite accurate readings; \qquad mandatory before \TeX\

[Carlos]

On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 06:12:32PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 7/5/2023 5:53 PM, Carlos wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 04:43:56PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> > > On 7/5/2023 3:18 PM, Carlos wrote:
> > > > \showmakeup on \TeX\ shows a
> > > > 
> > > > tSP:3.282
> > > > THK:-1.721
> > > > H__E
> > > > X
> > > > HK:-1.291
> > > > SP:3.282
> > > 
> > > no MWE includes so clueless
> > 
> > \starttypescript[mylucidaserif]
> >    \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightRegular]    [file:LucidaBrightRegular]
> >    \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightItalic]     [file:LucidaBrightItalic]
> >    \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightDemiBold]       [file:LucidaBrightDemiBold]
> >    \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightDemiItalic] [file:LucidaBrightDemiItalic]
> > \stoptypescript
> Hm, isn't that this lucida rip off again? Maybe bad metricks then but I'm
> not going to look into that as the official TUG lucida opentype fonts
> perform okay.
> 
> Hans

The first sentence is irrelevant. And a guess. Bad metrics is not the
culprit

if it were true, the same problem would be under lualatex, correct? 

But it's not there. 
 
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : https://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 

-- 
C is quirky, flawed, and an enormous success.
    -- Dennis Ritchie (1941-2011), creator of the C programming language and of
    UNIX

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: \showmakeup adds unwanted space despite accurate readings; \qquad mandatory before \TeX\

[Hans Hagen]

On 7/5/2023 6:38 PM, Carlos wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 06:12:32PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> On 7/5/2023 5:53 PM, Carlos wrote:
>>> On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 04:43:56PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
>>>> On 7/5/2023 3:18 PM, Carlos wrote:
>>>>> \showmakeup on \TeX\ shows a
>>>>>
>>>>> tSP:3.282
>>>>> THK:-1.721
>>>>> H__E
>>>>> X
>>>>> HK:-1.291
>>>>> SP:3.282
>>>>
>>>> no MWE includes so clueless
>>>
>>> \starttypescript[mylucidaserif]
>>>     \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightRegular]    [file:LucidaBrightRegular]
>>>     \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightItalic]     [file:LucidaBrightItalic]
>>>     \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightDemiBold]       [file:LucidaBrightDemiBold]
>>>     \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightDemiItalic] [file:LucidaBrightDemiItalic]
>>> \stoptypescript
>> Hm, isn't that this lucida rip off again? Maybe bad metricks then but I'm
>> not going to look into that as the official TUG lucida opentype fonts
>> perform okay.
>>
>> Hans
> 
> The first sentence is irrelevant. And a guess. Bad metrics is not the
> culprit
> 
> if it were true, the same problem would be under lualatex, correct?

well, who knows what (me)tricks those fonts have embedded .. are these 
the official TUG lucida open type fonts? if so,

\setupbodyfont[lucida]

should just work (btw, you also don't set up math)

> But it's not there.
I can't (and won't) check that as I don't have (lua)latex installed nor 
have those fonts. I also don't see where this \qquad is in your example.

As for the \showmakup ... it is used extensively and afaiks there are no 
issues with it.

Hans


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

___________________________________________________________________________________
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: \showmakeup adds unwanted space despite accurate readings; \qquad mandatory before \TeX\

[Carlos]

On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 06:52:30PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 7/5/2023 6:38 PM, Carlos wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 06:12:32PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> > > On 7/5/2023 5:53 PM, Carlos wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 04:43:56PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> > > > > On 7/5/2023 3:18 PM, Carlos wrote:
> > > > > > \showmakeup on \TeX\ shows a
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > tSP:3.282
> > > > > > THK:-1.721
> > > > > > H__E
> > > > > > X
> > > > > > HK:-1.291
> > > > > > SP:3.282
> > > > > 
> > > > > no MWE includes so clueless
> > > > 
> > > > \starttypescript[mylucidaserif]
> > > >     \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightRegular]    [file:LucidaBrightRegular]
> > > >     \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightItalic]     [file:LucidaBrightItalic]
> > > >     \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightDemiBold]       [file:LucidaBrightDemiBold]
> > > >     \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightDemiItalic] [file:LucidaBrightDemiItalic]
> > > > \stoptypescript
> > > Hm, isn't that this lucida rip off again? Maybe bad metricks then but I'm
> > > not going to look into that as the official TUG lucida opentype fonts
> > > perform okay.
> > > 
> > > Hans
> > 
> > The first sentence is irrelevant. And a guess. Bad metrics is not the
> > culprit
> > 
> > if it were true, the same problem would be under lualatex, correct?
> 
> well, who knows what (me)tricks those fonts have embedded .. are these the
> official TUG lucida open type fonts? if so,
> 
> \setupbodyfont[lucida]
> 
> should just work (btw, you also don't set up math)
> 
> > But it's not there.
> I can't (and won't) check that as I don't have (lua)latex installed nor have
> those fonts. I also don't see where this \qquad is in your example.


Using the same fonts under lualatex yields \TeX\ without an issue. 

\documentclass{article}

\usepackage{unicode-math}

\defaultfontfeatures{Ligatures=TeX}

\setmainfont[
      ItalicFont=LucidaBrightItalic,
        BoldFont=LucidaBrightDemiBold,
  BoldItalicFont=LucidaBrightDemiItalic,
  ]{LucidaBrightRegular}
%
\setsansfont[
      ItalicFont=LucidaSansOblique,
        BoldFont=LucidaSansDemiBold,
  BoldItalicFont=LucidaSansDemiOblique,
  ]{LucidaSansRegular}
%
\setmonofont[
%      ItalicFont=LucidaTypewriterOblique,
        BoldFont=LucidaTypewriterBold,
%  BoldItalicFont=LucidaTypewriterBoldOblique,
  ]{LucidaTypewriterRegular}

\begin{document}

{\rm    \input{knuth}}

\textsf{\input{knuth}}

\end{document}

> 
> As for the \showmakup ... it is used extensively and afaiks there are no
> issues with it.

After running lualatex the problem dissappears. Or it seems like it. 

> 
> Hans
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 

-- 
You will lose an important disk file.

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Re: \showmakeup adds unwanted space despite accurate readings; \qquad mandatory before \TeX\

[Carlos]

On Thu, Jul 06, 2023 at 09:16:58AM -0400, Carlos wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 06:52:30PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> > On 7/5/2023 6:38 PM, Carlos wrote:
> > > On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 06:12:32PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> > > > On 7/5/2023 5:53 PM, Carlos wrote:
> > > > > On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 04:43:56PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> > > > > > On 7/5/2023 3:18 PM, Carlos wrote:
> > > > > > > \showmakeup on \TeX\ shows a
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > tSP:3.282
> > > > > > > THK:-1.721
> > > > > > > H__E
> > > > > > > X
> > > > > > > HK:-1.291
> > > > > > > SP:3.282
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > no MWE includes so clueless
> > > > > 
> > > > > \starttypescript[mylucidaserif]
> > > > >     \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightRegular]    [file:LucidaBrightRegular]
> > > > >     \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightItalic]     [file:LucidaBrightItalic]
> > > > >     \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightDemiBold]       [file:LucidaBrightDemiBold]
> > > > >     \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightDemiItalic] [file:LucidaBrightDemiItalic]
> > > > > \stoptypescript
> > > > Hm, isn't that this lucida rip off again? Maybe bad metricks then but I'm
> > > > not going to look into that as the official TUG lucida opentype fonts
> > > > perform okay.
> > > > 
> > > > Hans
> > > 
> > > The first sentence is irrelevant. And a guess. Bad metrics is not the
> > > culprit
> > > 
> > > if it were true, the same problem would be under lualatex, correct?
> > 
> > well, who knows what (me)tricks those fonts have embedded .. are these the
> > official TUG lucida open type fonts? if so,
> > 
> > \setupbodyfont[lucida]
> > 
> > should just work (btw, you also don't set up math)
> > 
> > > But it's not there.
> > I can't (and won't) check that as I don't have (lua)latex installed nor have
> > those fonts. I also don't see where this \qquad is in your example.
> 
> 
> Using the same fonts under lualatex yields \TeX\ without an issue. 
> 
> \documentclass{article}
> 
> \usepackage{unicode-math}
> 
> \defaultfontfeatures{Ligatures=TeX}
> 
> \setmainfont[
>       ItalicFont=LucidaBrightItalic,
>         BoldFont=LucidaBrightDemiBold,
>   BoldItalicFont=LucidaBrightDemiItalic,
>   ]{LucidaBrightRegular}
> %
> \setsansfont[
>       ItalicFont=LucidaSansOblique,
>         BoldFont=LucidaSansDemiBold,
>   BoldItalicFont=LucidaSansDemiOblique,
>   ]{LucidaSansRegular}
> %
> \setmonofont[
> %      ItalicFont=LucidaTypewriterOblique,
>         BoldFont=LucidaTypewriterBold,
> %  BoldItalicFont=LucidaTypewriterBoldOblique,
>   ]{LucidaTypewriterRegular}
> 
> \begin{document}
> 
> {\rm    \input{knuth}}
> 
> \textsf{\input{knuth}}
> 
> \end{document}
> 
> > 
> > As for the \showmakup ... it is used extensively and afaiks there are no
> > issues with it.
> 
> After running lualatex the problem dissappears. Or it seems like it. 
> 

I take it back. It doesn't disappear. It's still there.  \showmakeup
yields the right readings but yet the kerning is off on \TeX\.

With \showmakeup everything ‹seems› correct. I guess the readings
output are correct, and also, amazingly, the horizontal kerning,
as you aptly named it, for \TeX\

Not under lualatex. Everytihng seems fine there.

But I perfectly understand that there would not be any support for these
fonts. Thanks though! 

(trying to send this message with an attachment as before but it wouldn't
go through) 


-- 
We are experiencing system trouble -- do not adjust your terminal.

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Re: \showmakeup adds unwanted space despite accurate readings; \qquad mandatory before \TeX\

[Carlos]

On Thu, Jul 06, 2023 at 12:57:57PM -0400, Carlos wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 06, 2023 at 09:16:58AM -0400, Carlos wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 06:52:30PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> > > On 7/5/2023 6:38 PM, Carlos wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 06:12:32PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> > > > > On 7/5/2023 5:53 PM, Carlos wrote:
> > > > > > On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 04:43:56PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> > > > > > > On 7/5/2023 3:18 PM, Carlos wrote:
> > > > > > > > \showmakeup on \TeX\ shows a
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > tSP:3.282
> > > > > > > > THK:-1.721
> > > > > > > > H__E
> > > > > > > > X
> > > > > > > > HK:-1.291
> > > > > > > > SP:3.282
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > no MWE includes so clueless
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > \starttypescript[mylucidaserif]
> > > > > >     \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightRegular]    [file:LucidaBrightRegular]
> > > > > >     \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightItalic]     [file:LucidaBrightItalic]
> > > > > >     \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightDemiBold]       [file:LucidaBrightDemiBold]
> > > > > >     \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightDemiItalic] [file:LucidaBrightDemiItalic]
> > > > > > \stoptypescript
> > > > > Hm, isn't that this lucida rip off again? Maybe bad metricks then but I'm
> > > > > not going to look into that as the official TUG lucida opentype fonts
> > > > > perform okay.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Hans
> > > > 
> > > > The first sentence is irrelevant. And a guess. Bad metrics is not the
> > > > culprit
> > > > 
> > > > if it were true, the same problem would be under lualatex, correct?
> > > 
> > > well, who knows what (me)tricks those fonts have embedded .. are these the
> > > official TUG lucida open type fonts? if so,
> > > 
> > > \setupbodyfont[lucida]
> > > 
> > > should just work (btw, you also don't set up math)
> > > 
> > > > But it's not there.
> > > I can't (and won't) check that as I don't have (lua)latex installed nor have
> > > those fonts. I also don't see where this \qquad is in your example.
> > 
> > 
> > Using the same fonts under lualatex yields \TeX\ without an issue. 
> > 
> > \documentclass{article}
> > 
> > \usepackage{unicode-math}
> > 
> > \defaultfontfeatures{Ligatures=TeX}
> > 
> > \setmainfont[
> >       ItalicFont=LucidaBrightItalic,
> >         BoldFont=LucidaBrightDemiBold,
> >   BoldItalicFont=LucidaBrightDemiItalic,
> >   ]{LucidaBrightRegular}
> > %
> > \setsansfont[
> >       ItalicFont=LucidaSansOblique,
> >         BoldFont=LucidaSansDemiBold,
> >   BoldItalicFont=LucidaSansDemiOblique,
> >   ]{LucidaSansRegular}
> > %
> > \setmonofont[
> > %      ItalicFont=LucidaTypewriterOblique,
> >         BoldFont=LucidaTypewriterBold,
> > %  BoldItalicFont=LucidaTypewriterBoldOblique,
> >   ]{LucidaTypewriterRegular}
> > 
> > \begin{document}
> > 
> > {\rm    \input{knuth}}
> > 
> > \textsf{\input{knuth}}
> > 
> > \end{document}
> > 
> > > 
> > > As for the \showmakup ... it is used extensively and afaiks there are no
> > > issues with it.
> > 
> > After running lualatex the problem dissappears. Or it seems like it. 
> > 
> 
> I take it back. It doesn't disappear. It's still there.  \showmakeup
> yields the right readings but yet the kerning is off on \TeX\.
> 
> With \showmakeup everything ‹seems› correct. I guess the readings
> output are correct, and also, amazingly, the horizontal kerning,
> as you aptly named it, for \TeX\
> 
> Not under lualatex. Everytihng seems fine there.
> 
> But I perfectly understand that there would not be any support for these
> fonts. Thanks though! 
> 
> (trying to send this message with an attachment as before but it wouldn't
> go through) 


In other words, and please, just ignore my message. 

But it seems as if \showmakeup masks the problem. Dont' get me wrong, I
find \showmakeup output as one of the best indicators out there. 

But if one were to say 

{\rm \qquad{\!\!\!\!\!\!\!\!\!\!\!hurt \TeX\ significantly}}

the readings are quite probably as accurate as readings can ever be, but
at the same time, \TeX\ is displayed perfectly, which shouldn't have. 

It really doesn't matter how many quad quad quad quad happened to be, or
how many negative spaces happened to be included, because it never gets
it quite right unless \showmakeup is used 

This is quite interesting actually. 

If, for example, with \showmakeup, one were to say within the same document 

\hbox to 1cm{\ss \input{knuth}}

or rather, \vbox to 1cm{\ss \input{knuth}} or whatever

\showmakeup displays it astonishingly correctly indeed

anyhow


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Re: \showmakeup adds unwanted space despite accurate readings; \qquad mandatory before \TeX\

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 7/7/2023 1:09 PM, Carlos wrote:

> \showmakeup displays it astonishingly correctly indeed
probably a side effect of the fact that injected stuff resynchronizes 
the character progression in the pdf file (every char start with 
explicit coordinates) while without showing it depends on the width 
array so when that one is wrong (could be a side effect of some bad 
metric in the font file like units, possibly reported in the log) you 
can get wrong positioning

Hans

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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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Re: \showmakeup adds unwanted space despite accurate readings; \qquad mandatory before \TeX\

[Carlos]

On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 06:12:32PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 7/5/2023 5:53 PM, Carlos wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 04:43:56PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> > > On 7/5/2023 3:18 PM, Carlos wrote:
> > > > \showmakeup on \TeX\ shows a
> > > > 
> > > > tSP:3.282
> > > > THK:-1.721
> > > > H__E
> > > > X
> > > > HK:-1.291
> > > > SP:3.282
> > > 
> > > no MWE includes so clueless
> > 
> > \starttypescript[mylucidaserif]
> >    \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightRegular]    [file:LucidaBrightRegular]
> >    \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightItalic]     [file:LucidaBrightItalic]
> >    \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightDemiBold]       [file:LucidaBrightDemiBold]
> >    \definefontsynonym[LucidaBrightDemiItalic] [file:LucidaBrightDemiItalic]
> > \stoptypescript
> Hm, isn't that this lucida rip off again? Maybe bad metricks then but I'm
> not going to look into that as the official TUG lucida opentype fonts
> perform okay.
> 
> Hans

Coincidentally speaking, a while ago (as a matter of fact this was last week),
I was reading about a heated discussion that happened a few decades
ago in which you said:

«i don't know the difference between input and font encoding and i
don't know what tfm and afm files contain and what they are used for,
and i don't know how to implement and use the right font /char handling
macros  etc etc; but i *do* know and listen when a user who actually
uses some glyphs complains about something»

And I don't want to stir up anything here either, but if the convention of
using non-official vs official fonts is the new de facto under lmtx, 
I guess my opening question is invalid by all acounts  


> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
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Re: \showmakeup adds unwanted space despite accurate readings; \qquad mandatory before \TeX\

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 7/5/2023 7:05 PM, Carlos wrote:

> And I don't want to stir up anything here either, but if the convention of
> using non-official vs official fonts is the new de facto under lmtx,
> I guess my opening question is invalid by all acounts
Well, the policy wrt font is quite simple:

(1) one can define a typescript for any font, and one is free to mess 
around in these as much as possible

(2) a proper font will normally work ok but of course there can be 
exceptions

(3) if a font behaves bad one can ask on the list but then you need to 
give a mwe + output + indication where something is wrong

(4) if you're lucky someone else has that font and can try, but keep in 
mind that one cannot assume someone to spend time (it is not everyones 
hobby to solve issues)

(5) if nothing works out you need to provide an official (properly 
licenced copy, which in the case of a commercial font means that you 
have to buy an extra copy)

(6) you have to keep in mind that you ask someone to spend time on 
something that is not worth spending time on (in the case of lucida: the 
ones from tug work fine, and we send quite some time on the math too, so 
we see no reason to spend more time on it ... there is only so much you 
can expect for free)

(7) you cannot claim someones time and to what extend questions get 
answered also depends on the tone of the email, the way questions are 
formulates, etc etc

that said ... if you think that you can deduce conventions from the fact 
that it is impossible or hard to answer a (somewhat vague) question, 
some introspection is needed ... i get the impressions that you have no 
clue what the de-facto conventions are under lmtx so i'd be careful in 
drawing conclusions

also said: i do know the difference between input and font encoding and 
i do know what tfm and afm files contain and i also do know how to 
implement font/char handling (unless i have to guess what encoding, 
fonts, chars, engine an dmacro package a user is using in which case I 
don't - want to - know any of this) but when a user complain in certain 
ways i tend to not listen

(let's see what chat gpt mnakes of that in the future)

anyway, i don't have these fonts, i have working lucida setup as do 
other users, so i see no problem

and, as your fonts work fine in lualatex, you have a way out of this 
persistent font issue,

Hans

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Re: \showmakeup adds unwanted space despite accurate readings; \qquad mandatory before \TeX\

[Carlos]

On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 07:37:56PM +0200, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:
> On 7/5/2023 7:05 PM, Carlos wrote:
> 
> > And I don't want to stir up anything here either, but if the convention of
> > using non-official vs official fonts is the new de facto under lmtx,
> > I guess my opening question is invalid by all acounts
> Well, the policy wrt font is quite simple:
> 
> (1) one can define a typescript for any font, and one is free to mess around
> in these as much as possible
> 
> (2) a proper font will normally work ok but of course there can be
> exceptions
> 
> (3) if a font behaves bad one can ask on the list but then you need to give
> a mwe + output + indication where something is wrong
> 
> (4) if you're lucky someone else has that font and can try, but keep in mind
> that one cannot assume someone to spend time (it is not everyones hobby to
> solve issues)
> 
> (5) if nothing works out you need to provide an official (properly licenced
> copy, which in the case of a commercial font means that you have to buy an
> extra copy)
> 
> (6) you have to keep in mind that you ask someone to spend time on something
> that is not worth spending time on (in the case of lucida: the ones from tug
> work fine, and we send quite some time on the math too, so we see no reason
> to spend more time on it ... there is only so much you can expect for free)
> 
> (7) you cannot claim someones time and to what extend questions get answered
> also depends on the tone of the email, the way questions are formulates, etc
> etc

I agree with everything. Except (5). 

Last time I checked Oracle, Corporation, one of the greediest money
hungry behemoth eavesdropping corporate shithole to ever set foot on
planet earth, owned or included the Lucida family on every java runtime
environment that there was. This piece of software was also
involuntarily required to run quite a few of programs. 

Anyhow. Heck. Let's check the company's revenue:

Revenue	Increase US$49.95 billion (2023)
Operating income	Increase US$13.09 billion (2023)
Net income	Increase US$8.503 billion (2023)
Total assets	Increase US$134.4 billion (2023)
Total equity	Increase US$1.556 billion (2023)

ouch. Billions, right?  

So no. Let's stop the pretty lawyerish talk and rethoric and enough
with licenses too.

When you said ‹ripoff›, I'm not going to take it personally, and I
guess, and rightly so, you must have been referring to these
folks above rather than an end-user of lmtx like myself.  

So no. The metrics are perfectly fine with the Lucida family from jre. 

> 
> that said ... if you think that you can deduce conventions from the fact
> that it is impossible or hard to answer a (somewhat vague) question, some
> introspection is needed ... i get the impressions that you have no clue what
> the de-facto conventions are under lmtx so i'd be careful in drawing
> conclusions
> 
> also said: i do know the difference between input and font encoding and i do
> know what tfm and afm files contain and i also do know how to implement
> font/char handling (unless i have to guess what encoding, fonts, chars,
> engine an dmacro package a user is using in which case I don't - want to -
> know any of this) but when a user complain in certain ways i tend to not
> listen
> 
> (let's see what chat gpt mnakes of that in the future)
> 
> anyway, i don't have these fonts, i have working lucida setup as do other
> users, so i see no problem
> 
> and, as your fonts work fine in lualatex, you have a way out of this
> persistent font issue,
> 
> Hans
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
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> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
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Re: \showmakeup adds unwanted space despite accurate readings; \qquad mandatory before \TeX\

[Alan Braslau via ntg-context]

On 05/07/23 05/07/23, 17:53, Carlos wrote:
> (sorry for duplicate messages. sending out to mailing list works
> sporadically Sometimes works, other times doesn't).

As reported, the contextgarden server was down following a disk 
controller failure and had taken some time to be reconfigured with new 
hardware and brought back online.

However, the request that I read was not about duplicate messages but 
rather to avoid superfluous signature additions when posting to a 
mailing list.

Alan
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Re: \showmakeup adds unwanted space despite accurate readings; \qquad mandatory before \TeX\

[Carlos]

On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 06:15:41PM +0200, Alan Braslau via ntg-context wrote:
> On 05/07/23 05/07/23, 17:53, Carlos wrote:
> > (sorry for duplicate messages. sending out to mailing list works
> > sporadically Sometimes works, other times doesn't).
> 
> As reported, the contextgarden server was down following a disk controller
> failure and had taken some time to be reconfigured with new hardware and
> brought back online.
> 
> However, the request that I read was not about duplicate messages but rather
> to avoid superfluous signature additions when posting to a mailing list.
> 
> Alan

I have no clue what the heck you're talking about about the superflous
or whatever signature. Much less about you read or did not read.  

Not related to my question.

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> 

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