[TUHS] First ARPAnet transmission

[TUHS] First ARPAnet transmission

[Dave Horsfall]

Of interest to the old farts here...

At 22:30 (but which timezone?) on this day in 1969 the first packet got as 
far as "LO" ("LOGIN"?) then crashed.  More details, anyone?

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."

[TUHS] First ARPAnet transmission

[William Cheswick]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 617 bytes --]

The third character was “g”, and the ensuing “log" command crashed the server at SRI. As
I recall, the connection was made from UCLA to SRI.  Leonard Kleinrock
tells this story sometimes.

> On 28Oct 2017, at 6:13 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> 
> Of interest to the old farts here...
> 
> At 22:30 (but which timezone?) on this day in 1969 the first packet got as far as "LO" ("LOGIN"?) then crashed. More details, anyone?

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20171028/f23cfbad/attachment.html>

[TUHS] First ARPAnet transmission

[Dave Horsfall]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1248 bytes --]

On Sat, 28 Oct 2017, William Cheswick wrote:

> The third character was “g”, and the ensuing “log" command crashed the 
> server at SRI. AsI recall, the connection was made from UCLA to SRI. 
> Leonard Kleinrocktells this story sometimes.

Thanks; here we are:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Kleinrock#ARPANET

The first message on the ARPANET was sent by UCLA student programmer 
Charley Kline, at 10:30 p.m, on October 29, 1969 from Boelter Hall 3420, 
the school's main engineering building.  Supervised by Kleinrock, Kline 
transmitted from the university's SDS Sigma 7 host computer to the 
Stanford Research Institute's SDS 940 host computer.  The message text was 
the word "login"; the "l" and the "o" letters were transmitted, but the 
system then crashed.  Hence, the literal first message over the ARPANET 
was "lo".  About an hour later, having recovered from the crash, the SDS 
Sigma 7 computer effected a full "login".  The first permanent ARPANET 
link was established on November 21, 1969, between the IMP at UCLA and the 
IMP at the Stanford Research Institute.  By December 5, 1969, the entire 
four-node network was established.

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."

Re: [TUHS] First ARPAnet transmission

[Steffen Nurpmeso]

Lars Brinkhoff wrote in <7w7ei0gkap.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>:
 |Bakul Shah wrote:
 |> Dave Horsfall wrote:
 |>> Abolish DST, I say; it was introduced as a temporary measure during \
 |>> one of 
 |>> the World Wars to increase production or something.
 |> Agree it should be abolished. 
 |
 |Being done in EU.
 --End of <7w7ei0gkap.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Jaaa, but with alarming language, and i wonder how many of all
those who voted had simply been trapped by that.
I commented in the according field, that children should not go to
school in the dark, and that i have seen a real night sky only two
times in my life, because of the overexposure through human light
pollution, and the rest i have forgotten.

But whatever, it does not matter of course.  For one i hope that
LED street lights will save a lot of prescious power, and they do
reduce the amount of light that is, how do you say that in
english, streamed upwards.  Of course children must be broken, and
need to learn to find their way through the darkness, to school.

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,                The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter           he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)

Re: [TUHS] First ARPAnet transmission

[Greg 'groggy' Lehey]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 628 bytes --]

On Tuesday, 30 October 2018 at  6:50:12 -0600, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog@lemis.com> wrote:
>
>> Years ago I tried ignoring DST.  It ended badly.
>
> It couldn't have been as bad as for these guys:
>
> 	https://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1999-38.html

Indeed.  I'm still here to tell the tale.

But then, all my bombs are based on time_t.

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 163 bytes --]

Re: [TUHS] First ARPAnet transmission

[Dave Horsfall]

On Tue, 30 Oct 2018, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:

>>> ...it appears that DST was *not* in effect on October 30, 1969.
>>
>> Which is another reason why I don't use UTC; ...
>
> UTC or DST?

Both; if I use UTC then I have to figure out whether DST was in effect at 
that time (apart from working out the UTC offset), and people can do that 
for themselves if they care enough (and assuming that I keep posting 
these).

And this thread is rapidly becoming off-topic...

-- Dave

Re: [TUHS] First ARPAnet transmission

[arnold]

"Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog@lemis.com> wrote:

> Years ago I tried ignoring DST.  It ended badly.

It couldn't have been as bad as for these guys:

	https://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1999-38.html

Not that I have any sympathy at all.

Arnold

Re: [TUHS] First ARPAnet transmission

[Arno Griffioen]

On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 03:55:42AM +0000, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> Bakul Shah wrote:
> > Dave Horsfall wrote:
> >> Abolish DST, I say; it was introduced as a temporary measure during one of 
> >> the World Wars to increase production or something.
> > Agree it should be abolished. 
> 
> Being done in EU.

Going *really* off-topic here, but in true EU style it may well end
up a total mess with all different countries choosing to either stay in DST
or 'regular' time permanently.

So that could potentially lead to an 'interesting' patchwork of timezones 
across the region.

Slowly some noises in the EU halls of power starting to appear now that it's 
likely better to take some more time for this and try to reach a single 
agreed-on 'time selection' decision for the whole region.

So there may be some hope for a sane result..

Now back to your regular scheduled UN*X history channel programming!

								Bye, Arno.

Re: [TUHS] First ARPAnet transmission

[Lars Brinkhoff]

Bakul Shah wrote:
> Dave Horsfall wrote:
>> Abolish DST, I say; it was introduced as a temporary measure during one of 
>> the World Wars to increase production or something.
> Agree it should be abolished. 

Being done in EU.

Re: [TUHS] First ARPAnet transmission

[Bakul Shah]

On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 08:13:09 +1100 Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> wrote:
>
> Abolish DST, I say; it was introduced as a temporary measure during one of 
> the World Wars to increase production or something.

Agree it should be abolished. 

\tangent{
 In California we will have a chance to do something about
 this on Nov 6. If proposition 7 passes it will *allow* the
 CA legislature to change the DST law by a 2/3 majority --
 either to repeal it or, more likely, to a year around DST.
 And even then we'd have to get Federal approval. Madness!
}

Re: [TUHS] First ARPAnet transmission

[Greg 'groggy' Lehey]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 565 bytes --]

On Tuesday, 30 October 2018 at  8:13:09 +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Oct 2018, John Labovitz wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> ...it appears that DST was *not* in effect on October 30, 1969.
>
> Which is another reason why I don't use UTC; ...

UTC or DST?

Years ago I tried ignoring DST.  It ended badly.

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 163 bytes --]

Re: [TUHS] First ARPAnet transmission

[Greg 'groggy' Lehey]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2187 bytes --]

On Monday, 29 October 2018 at 11:34:50 -0400, John Labovitz wrote:
> On Oct 29, 2018, at 10:19 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

Ah, damn, you got there first.  Thanks for the zdump reference.

>> I >>think<< it is more likely 06:30 UTC, as IIRC Daylight Saving
>> Time finished mid-month so I think it would have been UTC+8:00 [not
>> +7:00 which it would be now].  That said, Nixon [...shutter...] was
>> in office and he put the US went on DST in the winter at some point
>> due to the oil crisis (but I thought that was a year or so later).
>> I remember it all happening at the time - but I can do not put
>> precise dates on any of it.
>
> According to tzdata...
>
> $ zdump -v America/Los_Angeles | grep 1969
> America/Los_Angeles  Sun Apr 27 09:59:59 1969 UTC = Sun Apr 27 01:59:59 1969 PST isdst=0
> America/Los_Angeles  Sun Apr 27 10:00:00 1969 UTC = Sun Apr 27 03:00:00 1969 PDT isdst=1
> America/Los_Angeles  Sun Oct 26 08:59:59 1969 UTC = Sun Oct 26 01:59:59 1969 PDT isdst=1
> America/Los_Angeles  Sun Oct 26 09:00:00 1969 UTC = Sun Oct 26 01:00:00 1969 PST isdst=0
>
> ...it appears that DST was *not* in effect on October 30, 1969.
>
>> A caveat: tzdata???s docs warn that dates before 1970 may not be
>> accurate. But because I???m fascinated by the cultural history
>> embedded within that database, I downloaded the latest tzdata files
>> to check. The relevant rules are in the ???northamerica??? file:
>
# Rule	NAME	FROM	TO	TYPE	IN	ON	AT	SAVE	LETTER
> Rule	CA	1948	only	-	Mar	14	2:01	1:00	D
> Rule	CA	1949	only	-	Jan	 1	2:00	0	S
> Rule	CA	1950	1966	-	Apr	lastSun	1:00	1:00	D
> Rule	CA	1950	1961	-	Sep	lastSun	2:00	0	S
> Rule	CA	1962	1966	-	Oct	lastSun	2:00	0	S
> Zone America/Los_Angeles -7:52:58 -	LMT	1883 Nov 18 12:07:02
> 			-8:00	US	P%sT	1946
> 			-8:00	CA	P%sT	1967
> 			-8:00	US	P%sT

Yes, but the key here is the US in the last line.  That refers to the
rules further up (US) that I referred to.

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 163 bytes --]

Re: [TUHS] First ARPAnet transmission

[Greg 'groggy' Lehey]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1630 bytes --]

On Monday, 29 October 2018 at 10:19:43 -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 4:01 AM Michael Kjörling <michael@kjorling.se>
> wrote:
>
>> So 1969-10-30 05:30 UTC?
>
> I >>think<< it is more likely 06:30 UTC, as IIRC Daylight Saving Time
> finished mid-month so I think it would have been UTC+8:00 [not +7:00 which
> it would be now].

Yes, correct:

  $ TZ=America/Los_Angeles date -j 196910292230 +%s
  5419800
  $ TZ=UTC date -r -5419800
  Thu 30 Oct 1969 06:30:00 UTC

> If you want to be be 100% accurate and use UTC, then you would need to
> check a precise calendar that had all those details to see how the US had
> its clocks set on October 30, 1969.  The good news was the transmission
> stayed with the same time zone, which as I said was Pacific (UCLA is in Los
> Angeles area and SRI in the Bay Area - but both are California - which
> follows US, DST rules).  The question is what were the rules that were in
> effect that night.

That's in the time zone sources:

  # Rule NAME	FROM	TO	TYPE	IN	ON	AT	SAVE	LETTER/S
  Rule	US	1967	2006	-	Oct	lastSun	2:00	0	S
  Rule	US	2007	max	-	Nov	Sun>=1	2:00	0	S

So in 1969, DST ended on 26 October.

Greg

Of course, this didn't happen at *exactly* 22:30/6:30, but presumably
nobody at the time thought that people would still be talking about it
50 years later.

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 163 bytes --]

Re: [TUHS] First ARPAnet transmission

[Dave Horsfall]

On Mon, 29 Oct 2018, John Labovitz wrote:

[...]

> ...it appears that DST was *not* in effect on October 30, 1969.

Which is another reason why I don't use UTC; not only do I have to be 
familiar with every timezone in the world (how many does Russia have 
again?  At least China has just the one) but I also have to see whether 
DST applied at the time.

Did you know, for example, that in Australia, DST was changed to 
accommodate the Sydney 2000 Olympics, otherwise the foreign athletes 
would've been confused as hell?

Abolish DST, I say; it was introduced as a temporary measure during one of 
the World Wars to increase production or something.

-- Dave

Re: [TUHS] First ARPAnet transmission

[John Labovitz]

On Oct 29, 2018, at 10:19 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

> I >>think<< it is more likely 06:30 UTC, as IIRC Daylight Saving Time finished mid-month so I think it would have been UTC+8:00 [not +7:00 which it would be now].   That said, Nixon [...shutter...] was in office and he put the US went on DST in the winter at some point due to the oil crisis (but I thought that was a year or so later).  I remember it all happening at the time - but I can do not put precise dates on any of it.

According to tzdata...

% zdump -v America/Los_Angeles | grep 1969
America/Los_Angeles  Sun Apr 27 09:59:59 1969 UTC = Sun Apr 27 01:59:59 1969 PST isdst=0
America/Los_Angeles  Sun Apr 27 10:00:00 1969 UTC = Sun Apr 27 03:00:00 1969 PDT isdst=1
America/Los_Angeles  Sun Oct 26 08:59:59 1969 UTC = Sun Oct 26 01:59:59 1969 PDT isdst=1
America/Los_Angeles  Sun Oct 26 09:00:00 1969 UTC = Sun Oct 26 01:00:00 1969 PST isdst=0

...it appears that DST was *not* in effect on October 30, 1969.

A caveat: tzdata’s docs warn that dates before 1970 may not be accurate. But because I’m fascinated by the cultural history embedded within that database, I downloaded the latest tzdata files to check. The relevant rules are in the ‘northamerica’ file:

Rule	CA	1948	only	-	Mar	14	2:01	1:00	D
Rule	CA	1949	only	-	Jan	 1	2:00	0	S
Rule	CA	1950	1966	-	Apr	lastSun	1:00	1:00	D
Rule	CA	1950	1961	-	Sep	lastSun	2:00	0	S
Rule	CA	1962	1966	-	Oct	lastSun	2:00	0	S
Zone America/Los_Angeles -7:52:58 -	LMT	1883 Nov 18 12:07:02
			-8:00	US	P%sT	1946
			-8:00	CA	P%sT	1967
			-8:00	US	P%sT

I wouldn’t say that’s definitive, but usually tzdata is a pretty good source.

Best,
—John

Re: [TUHS] First ARPAnet transmission

[Clem Cole]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1029 bytes --]

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 4:01 AM Michael Kjörling <michael@kjorling.se>
wrote:

>
>
> So 1969-10-30 05:30 UTC?
>
I >>think<< it is more likely 06:30 UTC, as IIRC Daylight Saving Time
finished mid-month so I think it would have been UTC+8:00 [not +7:00 which
it would be now].   That said, Nixon [...shutter...] was in office and he
put the US went on DST in the winter at some point due to the oil crisis
(but I thought that was a year or so later).  I remember it all happening
at the time - but I can do not put precise dates on any of it.

If you want to be be 100% accurate and use UTC, then you would need to
check a precise calendar that had all those details to see how the US had
its clocks set on October 30, 1969.  The good news was the transmission
stayed with the same time zone, which as I said was Pacific (UCLA is in Los
Angeles area and SRI in the Bay Area - but both are California - which
follows US, DST rules).  The question is what were the rules that were in
effect that night.

Clem

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1971 bytes --]

Re: [TUHS] First ARPAnet transmission

[Michael Kjörling]

On 29 Oct 2018 13:10 +1100, from grog@lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey):
> On Monday, 29 October 2018 at 12:05:06 +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>> At 22:30 (but which timezone?) on this day in 1969 the first packet got as
>> far as "lo" (for "login") then crashed on the "g".
> 
> The time zone was Pacific Time.  For me it happened on the following
> day, coincidentally the day I first interacted with a computer.

So 1969-10-30 05:30 UTC?

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael@kjorling.se
  “The most dangerous thought that you can have as a creative person
              is to think you know what you’re doing.” (Bret Victor)

Re: [TUHS] First ARPAnet transmission

[Dave Horsfall]

On Mon, 29 Oct 2018, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:

> The time zone was Pacific Time.  For me it happened on the following 
> day, coincidentally the day I first interacted with a computer.

Thanks; I try and use local time whenever possible, to respect those who 
were there at the time.

-- Dave

Re: [TUHS] First ARPAnet transmission

[Greg 'groggy' Lehey]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 630 bytes --]

On Monday, 29 October 2018 at 12:05:06 +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> Of interest to the old farts here...
>
> At 22:30 (but which timezone?) on this day in 1969 the first packet got as
> far as "lo" (for "login") then crashed on the "g".

The time zone was Pacific Time.  For me it happened on the following
day, coincidentally the day I first interacted with a computer.

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 163 bytes --]

[TUHS] First ARPAnet transmission

[Dave Horsfall]

Of interest to the old farts here...

At 22:30 (but which timezone?) on this day in 1969 the first packet got as 
far as "lo" (for "login") then crashed on the "g".

More details over on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Kleinrock#ARPANET
(with thanks to Bill Cheswick for the link).

-- Dave