* [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter @ 2020-11-12 21:36 Skip Tavakkolian 2020-11-13 3:50 ` Lucio De Re ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: Skip Tavakkolian @ 2020-11-12 21:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 527 bytes --] Hi, FYI, for those of you who are on twitter, I've set up the twitter handle @Plan9_OS to push news and announcements to the community. Please consider following it; and if you tweet about Plan 9 or related topics, please try to include this handle in your announcements. Thanks, -Skip ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-Mae23f11df987b95ea2e25b67 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1065 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-11-12 21:36 [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter Skip Tavakkolian @ 2020-11-13 3:50 ` Lucio De Re 2020-11-13 3:55 ` Don A. Bailey 2020-11-13 18:45 ` [9fans] " Kim Shrier ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: Lucio De Re @ 2020-11-13 3:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On 11/12/20, Skip Tavakkolian <skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > FYI, for those of you who are on twitter, I've set up the twitter handle > @Plan9_OS to push news and announcements to the community. Please > consider following it; and if you tweet about Plan 9 or related topics, > please try to include this handle in your announcements. > Is that a good idea? I, for one, have no intention of ever sharing a medium with Donald Trump. Lucio. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-M1b6eccfdd6454d3dd503050e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-11-13 3:50 ` Lucio De Re @ 2020-11-13 3:55 ` Don A. Bailey 2020-11-13 3:57 ` Calvin Morrison 0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: Don A. Bailey @ 2020-11-13 3:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans You know Trump has email, right? ;-) D > On Nov 12, 2020, at 8:51 PM, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 11/12/20, Skip Tavakkolian <skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com> wrote: >> Hi, >> >> FYI, for those of you who are on twitter, I've set up the twitter handle >> @Plan9_OS to push news and announcements to the community. Please >> consider following it; and if you tweet about Plan 9 or related topics, >> please try to include this handle in your announcements. >> > Is that a good idea? I, for one, have no intention of ever sharing a > medium with Donald Trump. > > Lucio. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-M7785163ebf947b25e3596cd3 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-11-13 3:55 ` Don A. Bailey @ 2020-11-13 3:57 ` Calvin Morrison 2020-11-13 6:31 ` sirjofri+ml-9fans 2020-11-16 0:03 ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans 0 siblings, 2 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: Calvin Morrison @ 2020-11-13 3:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: g_patrickb via 9fans It's ok, plan9 will get disputed by twitter fact checkers before a twitter presence is established. On Thu, Nov 12, 2020, at 10:55 PM, Don A. Bailey wrote: > You know Trump has email, right? ;-) > > D > > > On Nov 12, 2020, at 8:51 PM, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On 11/12/20, Skip Tavakkolian <skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> FYI, for those of you who are on twitter, I've set up the twitter handle > >> @Plan9_OS to push news and announcements to the community. Please > >> consider following it; and if you tweet about Plan 9 or related topics, > >> please try to include this handle in your announcements. > >> > > Is that a good idea? I, for one, have no intention of ever sharing a > > medium with Donald Trump. > > > > Lucio. -- Calvin ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-M74b25051675f47b25aeef1e2 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-11-13 3:57 ` Calvin Morrison @ 2020-11-13 6:31 ` sirjofri+ml-9fans 2020-11-16 0:03 ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans 1 sibling, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: sirjofri+ml-9fans @ 2020-11-13 6:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Hey, I didn't get the initial mail in this thread in my sirjofri.de mailbox. Only in my gmail box... I am on twitter, but not actively at the moment. I'll follow it, but don't expect too much from me. You can retweet my plan9 related posts if you want, maybe this brings some attention after all this time... sirjofri ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-Me7c071974e5f5f2482b6b6ad Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-11-13 3:57 ` Calvin Morrison 2020-11-13 6:31 ` sirjofri+ml-9fans @ 2020-11-16 0:03 ` cigar562hfsp952fans 1 sibling, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: cigar562hfsp952fans @ 2020-11-16 0:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans >> > On Nov 12, 2020, at 8:51 PM, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > On 11/12/20, Skip Tavakkolian <skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> FYI, for those of you who are on twitter, I've set up the twitter handle >> >> @Plan9_OS to push news and announcements to the community. Please >> >> consider following it; and if you tweet about Plan 9 or related topics, >> >> please try to include this handle in your announcements. >> >> >> > Is that a good idea? I, for one, have no intention of ever sharing a >> > medium with Donald Trump. > On Thu, Nov 12, 2020, at 10:55 PM, Don A. Bailey wrote: >> You know Trump has email, right? ;-) I don't know about that. He's never responded to e-mail from me. :-/ "Calvin Morrison" <calvin@fastmailteam.com> writes: > It's ok, plan9 will get disputed by twitter fact checkers before a > twitter presence is established. LOL Nothing that good could possible be true, could it? ;) "Pouya Tafti" <pouya+lists.9fans@nohup.io> writes: > Concerning LinkedIn as a platform, IMHO, it may be useful for > recruitment but as a social medium it's a toxic wasteland of > self-promotion and marketing hype ...just like Twitter. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-M09b8ee16e5bee88003b2f19d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-11-12 21:36 [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter Skip Tavakkolian 2020-11-13 3:50 ` Lucio De Re @ 2020-11-13 18:45 ` Kim Shrier 2020-11-13 19:05 ` Skip Tavakkolian 2020-11-16 0:09 ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans 2020-11-18 2:34 ` [9fans] " ori 3 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: Kim Shrier @ 2020-11-13 18:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > On Nov 12, 2020, at 2:36 PM, Skip Tavakkolian <skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > FYI, for those of you who are on twitter, I've set up the twitter handle @Plan9_OS to push news and announcements to the community. Please consider following it; and if you tweet about Plan 9 or related topics, please try to include this handle in your announcements. > > Thanks, > -Skip I hope this does not become the preferred method for news and announcements. I don’t have a twitter account and have no plans to change that. Kim ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-Me7d620d814f62b463b82153b Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-11-13 18:45 ` [9fans] " Kim Shrier @ 2020-11-13 19:05 ` Skip Tavakkolian 2020-11-13 19:09 ` Skip Tavakkolian 2020-11-13 23:23 ` Pouya Tafti 0 siblings, 2 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: Skip Tavakkolian @ 2020-11-13 19:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1206 bytes --] It is in addition to existing channels, including 9fans list. BTW, there are two groups on LinkedIn (both named "Plan 9 from Bell Labs"). One is managed by John Floren and the other by Sergey, Charles and myself. It probably has the least traffic. (also, perhaps we should combine them?) -Skip On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:47 AM Kim Shrier <kim@westryn.net> wrote: > > On Nov 12, 2020, at 2:36 PM, Skip Tavakkolian < > skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > FYI, for those of you who are on twitter, I've set up the twitter handle > @Plan9_OS to push news and announcements to the community. Please > consider following it; and if you tweet about Plan 9 or related topics, > please try to include this handle in your announcements. > > > > Thanks, > > -Skip > > I hope this does not become the preferred method for news and > announcements. > > I don’t have a twitter account and have no plans to change that. > > Kim > ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-Mc40f3998f2e12b6b22548e2e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2632 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-11-13 19:05 ` Skip Tavakkolian @ 2020-11-13 19:09 ` Skip Tavakkolian 2020-11-13 23:23 ` Pouya Tafti 1 sibling, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: Skip Tavakkolian @ 2020-11-13 19:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 568 bytes --] > > > > BTW, there are two groups on LinkedIn (both named "Plan 9 from Bell > Labs"). One is managed by John Floren and the other by Sergey, Charles and > myself. It probably has the least traffic. (also, perhaps we should combine > them?) > The second LinkedIn group I mentioned also includes nemo, djc and ericvh as managers. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-M91a66d7a86a335e858e1cb18 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1273 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-11-13 19:05 ` Skip Tavakkolian 2020-11-13 19:09 ` Skip Tavakkolian @ 2020-11-13 23:23 ` Pouya Tafti 1 sibling, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: Pouya Tafti @ 2020-11-13 23:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 933 bytes --] On Fri, 13 Nov 2020, at 20:05, Skip Tavakkolian wrote: > It is in addition to existing channels, including 9fans list. > > BTW, there are two groups on LinkedIn (both named "Plan 9 from Bell Labs"). One is managed by John Floren and the other by Sergey, Charles and myself. It probably has the least traffic. (also, perhaps we should combine them?) > > -Skip Thank you for setting up the Twitter account. I started following it. Concerning LinkedIn as a platform, IMHO, it may be useful for recruitment but as a social medium it's a toxic wasteland of self-promotion and marketing hype (or at least it was when I stopped visiting). I'm sure the Plan 9 groups are still great though. Pouya ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-M2408f5cf6b8f0d78ed1106a3 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1754 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-11-12 21:36 [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter Skip Tavakkolian 2020-11-13 3:50 ` Lucio De Re 2020-11-13 18:45 ` [9fans] " Kim Shrier @ 2020-11-16 0:09 ` cigar562hfsp952fans 2020-12-03 3:09 ` cigar562hfsp952fans 2020-11-18 2:34 ` [9fans] " ori 3 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: cigar562hfsp952fans @ 2020-11-16 0:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Skip Tavakkolian <skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com> writes: > FYI, for those of you who are on twitter, I've set up the twitter handle > @Plan9_OS to push news and announcements to the community. Please > consider following it; and if you tweet about Plan 9 or related topics, > please try to include this handle in your announcements. I actually think this is a REALLY good idea. We can use Twitter to stir-up mass hysteria about zombies from outer space planning to invade Earth by bombarding it with electromagnetic "Tmsgs." As long as these "Tmsgs" are invisible, the people on Twitter will believe it. We can lock-down the entire world, and make people shut off all the computers on Earth! We'll use the Defense Production Act to manufacture millions of tinfoil hats (called "Mount Points") to block all the Tmsgs from Outer Space, and tell people that it's dangerous to come within 6 feet of a smartphone without wearing a Mount Point. Then, exactly one week after Skip Tavakkolian is declared Supreme Commander of the Internet, Bell Labs (which Twitter users will believe still exists) announces its developement of a "9front Space Force Edition" which is 90% effective at generating Rmsgs that neutralize the deadly Tmsgs. Because the ISOs need to be stored in liquid nitrogen, however, we'll have to mobilize the military to blanket the countryside, reaming every HPFS partition it can find. Then, every computer will be running Plan 9! Plan 9 will conquor Georgia, and then conquer the world! Mwwwwahaaahaahaaa! Sounds like a great way to promote our favorite operating system. Wouldn't you agree? ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-M95ba1a529acfa945674164ba Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-11-16 0:09 ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans @ 2020-12-03 3:09 ` cigar562hfsp952fans 2020-12-03 4:01 ` Lucio De Re 0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: cigar562hfsp952fans @ 2020-12-03 3:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans cigar562hfsp952fans@icebubble.org writes: > I actually think this is a REALLY good idea. We can use Twitter to > stir-up mass hysteria about zombies from outer space planning to invade ... > Sounds like a great way to promote our favorite operating system. > Wouldn't you agree? OK, so, obviously, I was joking. But the COVID-19 playbook does suggest an interesting way to promote Plan 9. The steps required to do this would be, roughly: (1) Identify a worm that spreads from computer-to-computer and causes ZERO harm, 99.9% of the time, but causes TOTAL DESTRUCTION AND DATA LOSS in 0.1% of the computers it infests. (2) Get video of people in a panic, screaming and wailing about all their data being destroyed, and post it on the Internet. (3) Post lots of tweets about how dangerous the worm is, re-tweet, share, and generally hype-up the videos, along with dire predictions about how the worm will destroy the Internet. (4) Come up with a "test" to "detect" the worm, which has the following three characteristics: (A) Has a positive result whenever the worm is present; (B) Has a positive result whenever the CRC32 of the system's base-level page tables is less than 210210210; and (C) Only runs in Plan 9, installed to a vm image or live CD, so the test can only be run, in person, by a trained Plan 9 technician with physical access to the computer being tested. (5) Release a new version of 9front named after the dreaded worm, and tell people that installing it will make their device immune to the worm. It would require a little bit of coding, and a LOT of Tweeting, but if 9fans now have a Twitter account... creating a 9-demic is within the realm of possibility. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-M62191ae5f4fd8b4582fd9b9e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-12-03 3:09 ` cigar562hfsp952fans @ 2020-12-03 4:01 ` Lucio De Re 2020-12-03 7:25 ` Mart Zirnask 2020-12-05 22:25 ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans 0 siblings, 2 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: Lucio De Re @ 2020-12-03 4:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On 12/3/20, cigar562hfsp952fans@icebubble.org <cigar562hfsp952fans@icebubble.org> wrote: > cigar562hfsp952fans@icebubble.org writes: > > [ ... ] > It would require a little bit of coding, and a LOT of Tweeting, but if > 9fans now have a Twitter account... creating a 9-demic is within the > realm of possibility. > But do we want a flock of 9front-wielding droids flooding the 9fans mailing list? Lucio. PS: I concur with the late Dijkstra that the programming language(s) you learn shape(s) your ability to construct abstractions in your mind. We're kind of safe for as long as C remains the base language for development. All bets are off when Objective C takes over. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-M403ae6c9d4b56d90928e95ab Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-12-03 4:01 ` Lucio De Re @ 2020-12-03 7:25 ` Mart Zirnask 2020-12-03 8:50 ` Lucio De Re 2020-12-05 22:25 ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans 1 sibling, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: Mart Zirnask @ 2020-12-03 7:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > PS: I concur with the late Dijkstra that the programming language(s) > you learn shape(s) your ability to construct abstractions in your > mind. We're kind of safe for as long as C remains the base language > for development. All bets are off when Objective C takes over. Would you mind posting a link to the manuscript/transcript of the essay where he discusses this? Thanks, Mart ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-Mab3a5fdc03422047494d4075 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-12-03 7:25 ` Mart Zirnask @ 2020-12-03 8:50 ` Lucio De Re 2020-12-03 9:28 ` [9fans] " Bakul Shah 0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: Lucio De Re @ 2020-12-03 8:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans ewd498 - should suffice for a search. cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/index00xx.html seems an interesting place to look. And I may have paraphrased Dijkstra more strongly than he would have intended, but I'm sure he'll forgive me. Lucio. On 12/3/20, Mart Zirnask <martzirnask@gmail.com> wrote: >> PS: I concur with the late Dijkstra that the programming language(s) >> you learn shape(s) your ability to construct abstractions in your >> mind. We're kind of safe for as long as C remains the base language >> for development. All bets are off when Objective C takes over. > > Would you mind posting a link to the manuscript/transcript of the > essay where he discusses this? > > Thanks, > Mart -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 71 471 3694 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-M8e29de85dc46d335ddf9a6ed Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-12-03 8:50 ` Lucio De Re @ 2020-12-03 9:28 ` Bakul Shah 2020-12-04 9:37 ` Lucio De Re 0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: Bakul Shah @ 2020-12-03 9:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1839 bytes --] In his Turing Award lecture "The Humber Programmer" he expresses this sentiment. "the tools we are trying to use and the language or notation we are using to express or record our thoughts, are the major factors determining what we can think or express at all!" You all may enjoy listening to him! https://youtu.be/jDvaEiK__B8?list=PL99C1C9F94FB8FA4B&t=127 The above clip is positioned at "Now for the fifth argument." if you just want to read the relevant paragraph in the transcription below: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD03xx/EWD340.html Finally, I very much doubt he would have liked C! > On Dec 3, 2020, at 12:50 AM, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote: > > ewd498 - should suffice for a search. > cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/index00xx.html seems an interesting place to look. > > And I may have paraphrased Dijkstra more strongly than he would have > intended, but I'm sure he'll forgive me. > > Lucio. > > On 12/3/20, Mart Zirnask <martzirnask@gmail.com> wrote: >>> PS: I concur with the late Dijkstra that the programming language(s) >>> you learn shape(s) your ability to construct abstractions in your >>> mind. We're kind of safe for as long as C remains the base language >>> for development. All bets are off when Objective C takes over. >> >> Would you mind posting a link to the manuscript/transcript of the >> essay where he discusses this? >> >> Thanks, >> Mart > > > -- > Lucio De Re > 2 Piet Retief St > Kestell (Eastern Free State) > 9860 South Africa > > Ph.: +27 71 471 3694 > Cell: +27 83 251 5824 ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-M1128d932a79d53537e8d3e73 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4513 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-12-03 9:28 ` [9fans] " Bakul Shah @ 2020-12-04 9:37 ` Lucio De Re 2020-12-04 13:20 ` hiro 0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: Lucio De Re @ 2020-12-04 9:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On 12/3/20, Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote: > > Finally, I very much doubt he would have liked C! > I had an electrical engineering friend, back at university, who used array subscripts in C because he couldn't get his head around pointers. Like me, his migration was from Pascal to C. I would prefer a Modula-2 derived language for code I need to share with others (that's about all code, in my tradition), but Go is a good alternative, although I'm not missing it right now, having decided to punish my colleagues by using their own choice: PHP. I'd like to find a community that discusses the pros and cons of programming notations in an objective fashion, rather than the more common approach to solve some immediate problem with time to market as the only actual target criterion. I guess that is like Science Fiction, it keeps slipping into Fantasy. A revised version of "A Discipline of Programming" could provide a pretty sound foundation for that kind of discussion, in my opinion. Go seems to be taking steroids, at the moment, and I have no preference past it. It's a shame, because a lot of great design was spent on Go. I don't think anything really valuable was rejected, but a lot was included that opened far too many doors, in my opinion, of course. Lucio. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-Mc2558e37824facff420258c8 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-12-04 9:37 ` Lucio De Re @ 2020-12-04 13:20 ` hiro 2020-12-05 9:12 ` Lucio De Re 0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: hiro @ 2020-12-04 13:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans "discipline" is a good keyword. it's not about the language IMO. sure, in some edge-cases sometimes things are 2-3 times harder, but it's rather bad culture and bad conventions that waste my time than the language itself. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-M3b5476963bad1454e16f423d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-12-04 13:20 ` hiro @ 2020-12-05 9:12 ` Lucio De Re 0 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: Lucio De Re @ 2020-12-05 9:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On 12/4/20, hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote: > "discipline" is a good keyword. > it's not about the language IMO.\ > [ ... ] I watched Uncle Tom, whoever he may be, dissing practically every language under the sun with very little substance to what he was presenting. Didn't convince me that he really knew what he was talking about. I get the impression he is a promoter of the "agile" development style? I have an idea of where the common paradigms get in the way, but I need to figure a way - Fermat's style - to condense my thinking into a brief description and I don't think I'm up to the task. But I like to hear about other people's experiences and opinions, even if I tend to seek the weaknesses in other people's arguments, rather that to reinforce them. By all means mail me privately if you want a sounding board. Lucio. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-Me6447e0ac4ca12f24a2a4d0c Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-12-03 4:01 ` Lucio De Re 2020-12-03 7:25 ` Mart Zirnask @ 2020-12-05 22:25 ` cigar562hfsp952fans 2020-12-06 3:56 ` Lucio De Re 2020-12-06 19:52 ` Ethan Gardener 1 sibling, 2 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: cigar562hfsp952fans @ 2020-12-05 22:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> writes: > But do we want a flock of 9front-wielding droids flooding the 9fans > mailing list? Good point. Making something popular usually destroys it. E-mail used to be good, prior to The September That Never Ended. Linux used to be good, until about 2005. The World Wide Web used to be good, too... until it became popular. Maybe we should keep Plan 9 a secret. ;) It would be nice if there was some way to translate between technology intended for idiots and technology intended for experts. Imagine if, for example, every Android app automatically exported its functionality over 9P. The cell phone idiots would have all their flashy toasts and swipes, but the apps would still be usable by command line nerds. > PS: I concur with the late Dijkstra that the programming language(s) > you learn shape(s) your ability to construct abstractions in your > mind. We're kind of safe for as long as C remains the base language That sounds like a variant of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (which applies to natural languages) as applied to computer languages. > I had an electrical engineering friend, back at university, who used > array subscripts in C because he couldn't get his head around > pointers. Like me, his migration was from Pascal to C. Pascal has pointers, too, and they make alot more sense than pointers in C. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-Ma094670d72d166f7810b11bb Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-12-05 22:25 ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans @ 2020-12-06 3:56 ` Lucio De Re 2020-12-07 4:45 ` Devon H. O'Dell 2020-12-06 19:52 ` Ethan Gardener 1 sibling, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: Lucio De Re @ 2020-12-06 3:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On 12/6/20, cigar562hfsp952fans@icebubble.org <cigar562hfsp952fans@icebubble.org> wrote: > Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> writes: > >> But do we want a flock of 9front-wielding droids flooding the 9fans >> mailing list? > > Good point. [ ... ] Maybe we should keep Plan 9 a secret. ;) Well, that's one way of spreading it, yes. > > It would be nice if there was some way to translate between technology > intended for idiots and technology intended for experts. Imagine if, > for example, every Android app automatically exported its functionality > over 9P. The cell phone idiots would have all their flashy toasts and > swipes, but the apps would still be usable by command line nerds. > I like that idea. Might not be as far-fetched as it may seem at a glance: surely, a human organism could be "generated" from a simpler DNA than the present one (merged chromosome-2 in humans suggests I'm not wrong, but I rate rank amateur regarding genetics), if one removes all the twists and turns of evolution from it. The same may be possible with, say, Linux. Much less so with Plan 9, so a deep, enlightened comparison should be instructive. Something like Lion's or Nemo's Commentaries, maybe as a black room redevelopment as was done with the IBM PC BIOS. Or as a brand new mathematical theory of Information. [ ... ] > That sounds like a variant of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (which applies > to natural languages) as applied to computer languages. > Thanks, I need to look that one up. As a very under-educated, remote "scholar", such nuggets only reach me by accident. But seSotho is the local "vernacular", one of nine "official" African ("tribal" is close to the truth) languages in this country. I cannot fathom what kind of hoops people taught in these languages need to go through to comprehend modern science. I find my native Italian pretty close to stultifying when technology is involved. Poetic, certainly, emotional, definitely, good for songs, but below inadequate, as compared to English to express scientific and technological concepts, but that used to be until quite recently, German's role, too. I guess we have to thank the Yanks for shifting that, or the Yanks have to thank the colonising Brits for beating the French. Twists and turns, indeed. > Pascal has pointers, too, and they make alot more sense than pointers in > C. > Not to me, they don't. They do belong in C, which is a partially successful, glorified assembler, not a programming language. Partially successful as applied to being an assembler. No one can deny C's success in getting computers to do what is demanded of them. But the key is that we build computers to do what we want, not what we ask and C allows that in spades, by making us think like the machines. Hm, more accurately, forcing us to model the target automaton in our head. Solving problems, seems to me, ought to ignore the target instruction set as long as possible. It's tempting to think of human relationships, which also pretty much rely on assumptions rather than statements - I presume that "proving" the validity of code in this sense may mean simply removing all kinds of "lies" that lurk in the model it is meant to reproduce (simplistically, of course). Lucio. PS: Rambling, as usual. It helps me thinking, my hope is that it will be confirmed or denied by the "crowd" so I can move on from there. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-Mf498142699b81d3110aed41d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-12-06 3:56 ` Lucio De Re @ 2020-12-07 4:45 ` Devon H. O'Dell 0 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: Devon H. O'Dell @ 2020-12-07 4:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4080 bytes --] On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 19:57 Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote: > On 12/6/20, cigar562hfsp952fans@icebubble.org > <cigar562hfsp952fans@icebubble.org> wrote: > > Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> writes: > > > >> But do we want a flock of 9front-wielding droids flooding the 9fans > >> mailing list? > > > > Good point. [ ... ] Maybe we should keep Plan 9 a secret. ;) > > Well, that's one way of spreading it, yes. > > > > It would be nice if there was some way to translate between technology > > intended for idiots and technology intended for experts. Imagine if, > > for example, every Android app automatically exported its functionality > > over 9P. The cell phone idiots would have all their flashy toasts and > > swipes, but the apps would still be usable by command line nerds. > > > I like that idea. Might not be as far-fetched as it may seem at a > glance: surely, a human organism could be "generated" from a simpler > DNA than the present one (merged chromosome-2 in humans suggests I'm > not wrong, but I rate rank amateur regarding genetics), if one removes > all the twists and turns of evolution from it. The same may be > possible with, say, Linux. Much less so with Plan 9, so a deep, > enlightened comparison should be instructive. Something like Lion's or > Nemo's Commentaries, maybe as a black room redevelopment as was done > with the IBM PC BIOS. Or as a brand new mathematical theory of > Information. > > [ ... ] > > That sounds like a variant of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (which applies > > to natural languages) as applied to computer languages. > > > Thanks, I need to look that one up. As a very under-educated, remote > "scholar", such nuggets only reach me by accident. But seSotho is the > local "vernacular", one of nine "official" African ("tribal" is close > to the truth) languages in this country. I cannot fathom what kind of > hoops people taught in these languages need to go through to > comprehend modern science. I find my native Italian pretty close to Let's not overemphasize sapir-whorf. Many folks taught primarily in English find modern science impossible to understand. And SW ends up being a vector for beguiled racism. --dho > stultifying when technology is involved. Poetic, certainly, emotional, > definitely, good for songs, but below inadequate, as compared to > English to express scientific and technological concepts, but that > used to be until quite recently, German's role, too. I guess we have > to thank the Yanks for shifting that, or the Yanks have to thank the > colonising Brits for beating the French. > > Twists and turns, indeed. > > > Pascal has pointers, too, and they make alot more sense than pointers in > > C. > > > Not to me, they don't. They do belong in C, which is a partially > successful, glorified assembler, not a programming language. Partially > successful as applied to being an assembler. No one can deny C's > success in getting computers to do what is demanded of them. But the > key is that we build computers to do what we want, not what we ask and > C allows that in spades, by making us think like the machines. Hm, > more accurately, forcing us to model the target automaton in our head. > Solving problems, seems to me, ought to ignore the target instruction > set as long as possible. > > It's tempting to think of human relationships, which also pretty much > rely on assumptions rather than statements - I presume that "proving" > the validity of code in this sense may mean simply removing all kinds > of "lies" that lurk in the model it is meant to reproduce > (simplistically, of course). > > Lucio. > > PS: Rambling, as usual. It helps me thinking, my hope is that it will > be confirmed or denied by the "crowd" so I can move on from there. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-M520449ab9fec573baf32cfb7 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6310 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-12-05 22:25 ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans 2020-12-06 3:56 ` Lucio De Re @ 2020-12-06 19:52 ` Ethan Gardener 2020-12-07 4:28 ` Lucio De Re 1 sibling, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread From: Ethan Gardener @ 2020-12-06 19:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Sat, Dec 5, 2020, at 10:25 PM, cigar562hfsp952fans@icebubble.org wrote: > > It would be nice if there was some way to translate between technology > intended for idiots and technology intended for experts. Imagine if, > for example, every Android app automatically exported its functionality > over 9P. The cell phone idiots would have all their flashy toasts and > swipes, but the apps would still be usable by command line nerds. I recently learned most Amiga programs had "Rexx ports". They'd accept commands in the scripting language Rexx (or rather Arexx) from other programs or the user. It's another way of doing the same thing. It also avoids some GUI bloat: if a program wanted to open a file selector, it would call the file manager to do it. > > PS: I concur with the late Dijkstra that the programming language(s) > > you learn shape(s) your ability to construct abstractions in your > > mind. We're kind of safe for as long as C remains the base language > > That sounds like a variant of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (which applies > to natural languages) as applied to computer languages. I don't know the hypothesis, but very much agree different languages influence how you think and even feel. > > I had an electrical engineering friend, back at university, who used > > array subscripts in C because he couldn't get his head around > > pointers. Like me, his migration was from Pascal to C. > > Pascal has pointers, too, and they make alot more sense than pointers in > C. To me, C pointers are just another way of indexing the Great Memory Array -- it's a union of arrays of all different types. ;) I am much more comfortable with the syntax of array subscripts, too. I came to C from BASIC and assembly language. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-M45f25095dd8e2da7aa645f47 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-12-06 19:52 ` Ethan Gardener @ 2020-12-07 4:28 ` Lucio De Re 0 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: Lucio De Re @ 2020-12-07 4:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On 12/6/20, Ethan Gardener <eekee57@fastmail.fm> wrote: > > I don't know the hypothesis, but very much agree different languages > influence how you think and even feel. > You know, my most memorable and influential mentor was Daniel Friedman. I'm not sure I have the spelling right and he's probably in his seventies, today. His field was anthropology, but he also lectured adults at SUNY, Buffalo (NY) who wanted a formal qualification after having learnt the computer programming ropes on the job. What reminds me of him is that he had written a book on APL programming and I had just started to get comfortable with the language. I can almost feel my own mental transition from "before APL" to "after" all these years ago. Daniel's repertoire of anecdotes was astounding and extremely instructive. His theme was pretty much "team programming" and I have borne that burden with me through decades of operating more or less alone as a programmer, consultant and analyst. But the most significant anecdote of my own regards "team programming". After a fortnight of practically indoctrination from Daniel, the entire final year CS class was sold on working together exclusively. So when some droid came along looking for sharp programmers to develop some financial software in various distant locations (Switzerland was one such - I bet it was a scam, but that was the last I heard of it), we all stood together and refused to accept an offer that would see us working individually. I don't remember anyone breaking rank, but I can't be certain. The prospective employers would have none of it, they felt that teams of people who already knew each other would be a threat to their organisation - and they were probably right. I believe I know what happened in that situation and I seriously believe that with the mindset of the 1970s, today's hardware and a batch of bright developers who are keen and willing to work tightly together, we'd be living in a very different world. But we couldn't have that, could we? Only those who are no threat to the Establishment are allowed to succeed. And the Establishment, specially the financial organisations, is certainly able and willing to identify them and suppress anything that might threaten their domination. A conspiracy theory? More likely simply "social evolution". I'm hoping the next massive asteroid will hit this planet before we have a chance to sterilise it beyond recovery. Lucio. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-Mdbea50e3d7f1d82597fefd6d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter 2020-11-12 21:36 [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter Skip Tavakkolian ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2020-11-16 0:09 ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans @ 2020-11-18 2:34 ` ori 3 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread From: ori @ 2020-11-18 2:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: skip.tavakkolian, 9fans Quoth Skip Tavakkolian <skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com>: > Hi, > > FYI, for those of you who are on twitter, I've set up the twitter handle > @Plan9_OS to push news and announcements to the community. Please > consider following it; and if you tweet about Plan 9 or related topics, > please try to include this handle in your announcements. I don't generally twatter, but feel free to tweet about anything I post. ------------------------------------------ 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-M09a59cf3c10b7b2124f0b702 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2020-12-07 4:45 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 25+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2020-11-12 21:36 [9fans] Plan 9 announcements on twitter Skip Tavakkolian 2020-11-13 3:50 ` Lucio De Re 2020-11-13 3:55 ` Don A. Bailey 2020-11-13 3:57 ` Calvin Morrison 2020-11-13 6:31 ` sirjofri+ml-9fans 2020-11-16 0:03 ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans 2020-11-13 18:45 ` [9fans] " Kim Shrier 2020-11-13 19:05 ` Skip Tavakkolian 2020-11-13 19:09 ` Skip Tavakkolian 2020-11-13 23:23 ` Pouya Tafti 2020-11-16 0:09 ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans 2020-12-03 3:09 ` cigar562hfsp952fans 2020-12-03 4:01 ` Lucio De Re 2020-12-03 7:25 ` Mart Zirnask 2020-12-03 8:50 ` Lucio De Re 2020-12-03 9:28 ` [9fans] " Bakul Shah 2020-12-04 9:37 ` Lucio De Re 2020-12-04 13:20 ` hiro 2020-12-05 9:12 ` Lucio De Re 2020-12-05 22:25 ` [9fans] " cigar562hfsp952fans 2020-12-06 3:56 ` Lucio De Re 2020-12-07 4:45 ` Devon H. O'Dell 2020-12-06 19:52 ` Ethan Gardener 2020-12-07 4:28 ` Lucio De Re 2020-11-18 2:34 ` [9fans] " ori
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox; as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).