* Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
2011-05-17 17:23 ` Peter A. Cejchan
@ 2011-05-17 17:31 ` John Floren
2011-05-17 18:18 ` erik quanstrom
2011-05-17 22:49 ` errno
2011-05-17 18:16 ` Skip Tavakkolian
2011-05-18 6:31 ` Peter A. Cejchan
2 siblings, 2 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: John Floren @ 2011-05-17 17:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 10:23 AM, Peter A. Cejchan <tyapca7@gmail.com> wrote:
> Folks,
> i am very unhappy seeing this kind of discussions here (and, the wasted
> potential to do something more useful in my eyes, sorry, but IMHO)... it
> resembles me very much the times when Steve Jobbs compromised the ideas of
> the NeXTstep, first downgrading it to the OpenStep for Windoze users, then
> downgrading to MacOS X...... look, what happened to linux, bsd, etc: it's
> all approaching the silly model of windoze, you'll kill me but its IMHO... i
> don't want zillion of comp. languages to learn when they are capable of
> mostly the same ... please, please, Bell Labs people, please, do not
> compromise the ideas... believe me, it was not very much easy to me to throw
> away all the boilerplate apps served on linux and do the C port of many
> (>70) of them to switch to native plan9, but i feel it was one of the best
> decisions in my (professional) life, and remember, i am not a programmer, i
> am a paleobiologist, hence , user...
> Just my sad feelings... native plan9 deserves more focus than it gets,
> imho... i would hate to see plan9 as a plugin for Mozilla 20.0
>
> Sincerely, Peter, aka
> ++pac
> a proud user of plan9 since 2001...
>
What the hell? They're not saying, "Screw running on hardware, let's
just boot the whole system in Javascript under a browser", they want
to let you connect to your Plan 9 system from a web browser, because
you can find a Javascript-supporting web browser anywhere (except Plan
9) these days.
As fgb would say, relax. No "Bell Labs people" have even commented on
this thread, and if anybody wants to implement this, it's their own
damn business. Writing a drawterm replacement in Javascript is not
going to "downgrade" Plan 9. In fact, it would be rather useful--now
when you're away from home, you can use somebody else's computer to
connect to your CPU server and read your mail, for example.
John
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
2011-05-17 17:31 ` John Floren
@ 2011-05-17 18:18 ` erik quanstrom
2011-05-17 18:46 ` a z
2011-05-18 9:15 ` dorin bumbu
2011-05-17 22:49 ` errno
1 sibling, 2 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: erik quanstrom @ 2011-05-17 18:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> What the hell? They're not saying, "Screw running on hardware, let's
> just boot the whole system in Javascript under a browser", they want
> to let you connect to your Plan 9 system from a web browser, because
> you can find a Javascript-supporting web browser anywhere (except Plan
> 9) these days.
>
> As fgb would say, relax. No "Bell Labs people" have even commented on
> this thread, and if anybody wants to implement this, it's their own
> damn business. Writing a drawterm replacement in Javascript is not
> going to "downgrade" Plan 9. In fact, it would be rather useful--now
> when you're away from home, you can use somebody else's computer to
> connect to your CPU server and read your mail, for example.
relax, man. i understand peter's perspective. and i don't think
it's unreasonable. just think about how dbus has downgraded linux.
on the other hand, i think a js virtual machine (mips would be nicer
than x86) might be interesting. drawterm has always been a clever
hack. it would be nice to have emulated environment that's more
portable than 9vx and not tied to 32-bit x86.
one would then be able to write applications for non-plan 9 users
in plan 9. clearly they will have a browser.
not that i'm signing up or anything. :-)
- erik
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
2011-05-17 18:18 ` erik quanstrom
@ 2011-05-17 18:46 ` a z
2011-05-17 19:04 ` Skip Tavakkolian
2011-05-17 23:05 ` David Leimbach
2011-05-18 9:15 ` dorin bumbu
1 sibling, 2 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: a z @ 2011-05-17 18:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
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Ugh, I have to comment because to my noobness this sounds like an easy
project, and an easy project to over-think. Teach a java app how to draw
boxes like rio, and plug it in. Right?
I would love to use Rio on a touchscreen, unfortunately I need to eat. So if
I get that eating thing figured out Ill download Android SDK and make it
start reading data from what rio listens to and attaching markup to it.
On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 12:18 PM, erik quanstrom
<quanstro@labs.coraid.com>wrote:
> > What the hell? They're not saying, "Screw running on hardware, let's
> > just boot the whole system in Javascript under a browser", they want
> > to let you connect to your Plan 9 system from a web browser, because
> > you can find a Javascript-supporting web browser anywhere (except Plan
> > 9) these days.
> >
> > As fgb would say, relax. No "Bell Labs people" have even commented on
> > this thread, and if anybody wants to implement this, it's their own
> > damn business. Writing a drawterm replacement in Javascript is not
> > going to "downgrade" Plan 9. In fact, it would be rather useful--now
> > when you're away from home, you can use somebody else's computer to
> > connect to your CPU server and read your mail, for example.
>
> relax, man. i understand peter's perspective. and i don't think
> it's unreasonable. just think about how dbus has downgraded linux.
>
> on the other hand, i think a js virtual machine (mips would be nicer
> than x86) might be interesting. drawterm has always been a clever
> hack. it would be nice to have emulated environment that's more
> portable than 9vx and not tied to 32-bit x86.
>
> one would then be able to write applications for non-plan 9 users
> in plan 9. clearly they will have a browser.
>
> not that i'm signing up or anything. :-)
>
> - erik
>
>
--
⎼⎺⎺├@┼␊├├≤-␍⎼␊▒␍:/⎺└␊/⎼⎺#
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
2011-05-17 18:46 ` a z
@ 2011-05-17 19:04 ` Skip Tavakkolian
2011-05-17 23:05 ` David Leimbach
1 sibling, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Skip Tavakkolian @ 2011-05-17 19:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
other's have done what you're suggesting:
http://code.google.com/p/styxbrowser/
also drawterm port to iphone was one of last year's successful gsoc projects.
that's not the point though; the point is to have something that runs
natively in the browser. if chrome can run angry birds, why not
drawterm!
-Skip
On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 11:46 AM, a z <rhoyerboat@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ugh, I have to comment because to my noobness this sounds like an easy
> project, and an easy project to over-think. Teach a java app how to draw
> boxes like rio, and plug it in. Right?
>
> I would love to use Rio on a touchscreen, unfortunately I need to eat. So if
> I get that eating thing figured out Ill download Android SDK and make it
> start reading data from what rio listens to and attaching markup to it.
>
> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 12:18 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@labs.coraid.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> > What the hell? They're not saying, "Screw running on hardware, let's
>> > just boot the whole system in Javascript under a browser", they want
>> > to let you connect to your Plan 9 system from a web browser, because
>> > you can find a Javascript-supporting web browser anywhere (except Plan
>> > 9) these days.
>> >
>> > As fgb would say, relax. No "Bell Labs people" have even commented on
>> > this thread, and if anybody wants to implement this, it's their own
>> > damn business. Writing a drawterm replacement in Javascript is not
>> > going to "downgrade" Plan 9. In fact, it would be rather useful--now
>> > when you're away from home, you can use somebody else's computer to
>> > connect to your CPU server and read your mail, for example.
>>
>> relax, man. i understand peter's perspective. and i don't think
>> it's unreasonable. just think about how dbus has downgraded linux.
>>
>> on the other hand, i think a js virtual machine (mips would be nicer
>> than x86) might be interesting. drawterm has always been a clever
>> hack. it would be nice to have emulated environment that's more
>> portable than 9vx and not tied to 32-bit x86.
>>
>> one would then be able to write applications for non-plan 9 users
>> in plan 9. clearly they will have a browser.
>>
>> not that i'm signing up or anything. :-)
>>
>> - erik
>>
>
>
>
> --
> ⎼⎺⎺├@┼␊├├≤-␍⎼␊▒␍:/⎺└␊/⎼⎺#
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
2011-05-17 18:46 ` a z
2011-05-17 19:04 ` Skip Tavakkolian
@ 2011-05-17 23:05 ` David Leimbach
1 sibling, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: David Leimbach @ 2011-05-17 23:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: rhoyerboat, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
Cc: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2072 bytes --]
JavaScript is not java...
Sent from my iPhone
On May 17, 2011, at 11:46 AM, a z <rhoyerboat@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ugh, I have to comment because to my noobness this sounds like an easy project, and an easy project to over-think. Teach a java app how to draw boxes like rio, and plug it in. Right?
>
> I would love to use Rio on a touchscreen, unfortunately I need to eat. So if I get that eating thing figured out Ill download Android SDK and make it start reading data from what rio listens to and attaching markup to it.
>
> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 12:18 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@labs.coraid.com> wrote:
> > What the hell? They're not saying, "Screw running on hardware, let's
> > just boot the whole system in Javascript under a browser", they want
> > to let you connect to your Plan 9 system from a web browser, because
> > you can find a Javascript-supporting web browser anywhere (except Plan
> > 9) these days.
> >
> > As fgb would say, relax. No "Bell Labs people" have even commented on
> > this thread, and if anybody wants to implement this, it's their own
> > damn business. Writing a drawterm replacement in Javascript is not
> > going to "downgrade" Plan 9. In fact, it would be rather useful--now
> > when you're away from home, you can use somebody else's computer to
> > connect to your CPU server and read your mail, for example.
>
> relax, man. i understand peter's perspective. and i don't think
> it's unreasonable. just think about how dbus has downgraded linux.
>
> on the other hand, i think a js virtual machine (mips would be nicer
> than x86) might be interesting. drawterm has always been a clever
> hack. it would be nice to have emulated environment that's more
> portable than 9vx and not tied to 32-bit x86.
>
> one would then be able to write applications for non-plan 9 users
> in plan 9. clearly they will have a browser.
>
> not that i'm signing up or anything. :-)
>
> - erik
>
>
>
>
> --
> ⎼⎺⎺├@┼␊├├≤-␍⎼␊▒␍:/⎺└␊/⎼⎺#
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
2011-05-17 18:18 ` erik quanstrom
2011-05-17 18:46 ` a z
@ 2011-05-18 9:15 ` dorin bumbu
2011-05-18 9:40 ` a z
1 sibling, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: dorin bumbu @ 2011-05-18 9:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
it seems somebody already done a js virtual machine :)
http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/05/17/0242244/Boot-Linux-In-Your-Browser
Dorin
> on the other hand, i think a js virtual machine (mips would be nicer
> than x86) might be interesting. drawterm has always been a clever
> hack. it would be nice to have emulated environment that's more
> portable than 9vx and not tied to 32-bit x86.
>
> one would then be able to write applications for non-plan 9 users
> in plan 9. clearly they will have a browser.
>
> not that i'm signing up or anything. :-)
>
> - erik
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
2011-05-18 9:15 ` dorin bumbu
@ 2011-05-18 9:40 ` a z
0 siblings, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: a z @ 2011-05-18 9:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
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So any more thoughts on whether or not this would be useful?
I have to revise: that I did point to a java sdk and really should have
constrained my contents to something like jquery api instead.
So- why? (why build a website of drawterm)
(I think) I like plan9 as a potential network controller. Not sure if I have
the right idea or not. It is 'experimental,' after all. Having a full blown
web interface to acme.dump and the things it can do to read and respond to
routers of all varieties seems like it could be kind of useful. But I could
be misguided, uninformed and tired.
And StyxBrowser seems to lack auth code of any kind, and doesn't connect, or
make any useful complaints that I can find right now. Oh it connects to the
ip/port that it ships with, and is a file browser not a drawterm port, but
that was in the docs. Yeah I would much rather run from (from within, or
away from) an ajax app anyway.
much happyness all,
hroyerboat
misguided, uninformed and tired.
On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 3:15 AM, dorin bumbu <bumbudorin@gmail.com> wrote:
> it seems somebody already done a js virtual machine :)
>
> http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/05/17/0242244/Boot-Linux-In-Your-Browser
>
> Dorin
>
>
> > on the other hand, i think a js virtual machine (mips would be nicer
> > than x86) might be interesting. drawterm has always been a clever
> > hack. it would be nice to have emulated environment that's more
> > portable than 9vx and not tied to 32-bit x86.
> >
> > one would then be able to write applications for non-plan 9 users
> > in plan 9. clearly they will have a browser.
> >
> > not that i'm signing up or anything. :-)
> >
> > - erik
> >
> >
>
>
--
⎼⎺⎺├@┼␊├├≤-␍⎼␊▒␍:/⎺└␊/⎼⎺#
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
2011-05-17 17:31 ` John Floren
2011-05-17 18:18 ` erik quanstrom
@ 2011-05-17 22:49 ` errno
2011-05-17 23:40 ` Jacob Todd
1 sibling, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: errno @ 2011-05-17 22:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 10:31:32 AM John Floren wrote:
> they want to let you connect to your Plan 9 system from a web
> browser, because you can find a Javascript-supporting web browser
> anywhere (except Plan 9) these days.
>
On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 12:00:15 AM Adrian Tritschler wrote:
> Serve it over http and access your CPU server from anywhere
> that's got a web browser.
>
Is it really all that often when a Plan 9 user is in the precarious
situation of needing to access his plan9 system from some
other person's/party's pc or laptop?
Is this for when you glide into a coffee shop and forget your
laptop or something? "Hey, Mr.... may I borrow your laptop's
web browser for a sec... I really need to hack some code on
my plan9 system."
On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 12:04:02 PM Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
> that's not the point though; the point is to have something
> that runs natively in the browser.
>
On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 10:31:32 AM John Floren wrote:
> Writing a drawterm replacement in Javascript is not
> going to "downgrade" Plan 9.
>
Ok, who slipped me the Cr@zy Pills? Just a couple weeks ago,
javascript and web technologies were THE DEVIL INCARNATE...
but suddenly, here's something we can all get behind...
javascript + html5 + browsers and other web standards
are now OK[tm]?
So.... it's cool to have "the 9" running 'native' in a browser
(via javascript!)... but to have "the web" running 'native' in
Plan 9... is stark full of controversy, fear, uncertainty and
doubt?
On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 11:18:45 AM erik quanstrom wrote:
> one would then be able to write applications for non-plan 9
> users in plan 9.
>
I realize I'm being unimaginative, but I'm having a very difficult
time conceiving what sort of plan 9 application could possibly
be appealing to non-plan 9 users.
On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 11:18:45 AM erik quanstrom wrote:
> it would be nice to have emulated environment that's more
> portable than 9vx and not tied to 32-bit x86.
>
Well now this at least actually makes some modicum of sense
to me.
The web is the key.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
2011-05-17 22:49 ` errno
@ 2011-05-17 23:40 ` Jacob Todd
2011-05-17 23:58 ` errno
2011-05-18 8:33 ` Balwinder S Dheeman
0 siblings, 2 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Jacob Todd @ 2011-05-17 23:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2391 bytes --]
Writing/porting web stuff to plan 9 will be hard. Writing something that
accesses plan 9 from the web will be less hard.
On May 17, 2011 6:53 PM, "errno" <errno@cox.net> wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 10:31:32 AM John Floren wrote:
>> they want to let you connect to your Plan 9 system from a web
>> browser, because you can find a Javascript-supporting web browser
>> anywhere (except Plan 9) these days.
>>
> On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 12:00:15 AM Adrian Tritschler wrote:
>> Serve it over http and access your CPU server from anywhere
>> that's got a web browser.
>>
>
> Is it really all that often when a Plan 9 user is in the precarious
> situation of needing to access his plan9 system from some
> other person's/party's pc or laptop?
>
> Is this for when you glide into a coffee shop and forget your
> laptop or something? "Hey, Mr.... may I borrow your laptop's
> web browser for a sec... I really need to hack some code on
> my plan9 system."
>
> On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 12:04:02 PM Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
>> that's not the point though; the point is to have something
>> that runs natively in the browser.
>>
> On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 10:31:32 AM John Floren wrote:
>> Writing a drawterm replacement in Javascript is not
>> going to "downgrade" Plan 9.
>>
>
> Ok, who slipped me the Cr@zy Pills? Just a couple weeks ago,
> javascript and web technologies were THE DEVIL INCARNATE...
> but suddenly, here's something we can all get behind...
> javascript + html5 + browsers and other web standards
> are now OK[tm]?
>
> So.... it's cool to have "the 9" running 'native' in a browser
> (via javascript!)... but to have "the web" running 'native' in
> Plan 9... is stark full of controversy, fear, uncertainty and
> doubt?
>
> On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 11:18:45 AM erik quanstrom wrote:
>> one would then be able to write applications for non-plan 9
>> users in plan 9.
>>
>
> I realize I'm being unimaginative, but I'm having a very difficult
> time conceiving what sort of plan 9 application could possibly
> be appealing to non-plan 9 users.
>
> On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 11:18:45 AM erik quanstrom wrote:
>> it would be nice to have emulated environment that's more
>> portable than 9vx and not tied to 32-bit x86.
>>
>
> Well now this at least actually makes some modicum of sense
> to me.
>
> The web is the key.
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
2011-05-17 23:40 ` Jacob Todd
@ 2011-05-17 23:58 ` errno
2011-05-18 0:18 ` David Leimbach
2011-05-18 8:33 ` Balwinder S Dheeman
1 sibling, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: errno @ 2011-05-17 23:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 04:40:50 PM Jacob Todd wrote:
> Writing/porting web stuff to plan 9 will be hard. Writing
> something that accesses plan 9 from the web will be less
> hard.
>
Correct; but also somewhat ancillary to the general areas
of concern:
> Is it really all that often when a Plan 9 user is in the precarious
> situation of needing to access his plan9 system from some
> other person's/party's pc or laptop?
> Ok, who slipped me the Cr@zy Pills? Just a couple weeks ago,
> javascript and web technologies were THE DEVIL INCARNATE...
> I realize I'm being unimaginative, but I'm having a very difficult
> time conceiving what sort of plan 9 application could possibly
> be appealing to non-plan 9 users.
> The web is the key.
Cheers
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
2011-05-17 23:58 ` errno
@ 2011-05-18 0:18 ` David Leimbach
2011-05-18 1:02 ` errno
0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: David Leimbach @ 2011-05-18 0:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1715 bytes --]
On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 4:58 PM, errno <errno@cox.net> wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 04:40:50 PM Jacob Todd wrote:
> > Writing/porting web stuff to plan 9 will be hard. Writing
> > something that accesses plan 9 from the web will be less
> > hard.
> >
>
> Correct; but also somewhat ancillary to the general areas
> of concern:
>
> > Is it really all that often when a Plan 9 user is in the precarious
> > situation of needing to access his plan9 system from some
> > other person's/party's pc or laptop?
>
Instead of a "traditional web server platform" for web applications this
could be an alternative deployment target.
Use a grid of Plan 9 machines with a "native" interface in JavaScript.
JavaScript front end to a distributed Go application on Plan 9 sounds like a
potentially useful medium to work in.
>
> > Ok, who slipped me the Cr@zy Pills? Just a couple weeks ago,
> > javascript and web technologies were THE DEVIL INCARNATE...
>
> > I realize I'm being unimaginative, but I'm having a very difficult
> > time conceiving what sort of plan 9 application could possibly
> > be appealing to non-plan 9 users.
>
The one that doesn't look like a Plan 9 application, but instead looks like
a useful application?
I don't think Linux was appealing to very many people before it was obvious
one could host a cheap http server on it either.
>
> > The web is the key.
>
>
That's part of it likely, but I think we have to be able to imagine how Plan
9 makes something easier for someone with a web browser. Technology in
search of a use is almost always the wrong way to go, but I think it did
work out in Linux's case.
Dave
> Cheers
>
>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
2011-05-18 0:18 ` David Leimbach
@ 2011-05-18 1:02 ` errno
0 siblings, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: errno @ 2011-05-18 1:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Hey David, thanks for responding.
The sci-fi you write below is exactly the sort of fiction I'd find
very interesting in "9 space", and corresponds rather closely
to what I premised in a past thread[1].
So, I believe we're speaking the same language; but the picture
you've painted seems out-of-band to the drawterm-in-browser
idea presented by the OP; for instance:
> Instead of a "traditional web server platform" for web applications
> this could be an alternative deployment target.
>
If we're talking in terms of alternative deployment targets, then
we're talking about a controlled environment where we have
control over the installed software and hardware; but the
drawterm-in-javascript idea is intended for pre-deployed,
3rd-party accessibility to plan 9.
> Use a grid of Plan 9 machines with a "native" interface in JavaScript.
>
and:
> The one that doesn't look like a Plan 9 application, but instead looks
> like a useful application?
>
The drawterm-in-javascript-on-web-browser idea doesn't actually
provide a general-consumer-friendly interface to plan 9 - it just
amounts to window into the currently-existing plan 9 ui... we're still
talking text + libdraw, libpanel, libcontrol, libframe, etc..
I agree that an html + css + javascript ui on Plan 9 would be a
good and familiar way to get native Plan 9 applications into the
hands of general users; but this drawterm-in-javascript idea
does not facilitate the goal of a more "accessible/familiar"
WIMP environment for a general consumer market; though it
would be a useful tool once we finally did have a "native web"
within plan 9 itself, because then 'we' _could_ make good on
erik's:
> one would then be able to write applications for non-plan 9
> users in plan 9.
... in a way that would actually be appealing to non-plan 9
users.
[1] http://www.mail-archive.com/9fans@9fans.net/msg19990.html
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
2011-05-17 23:40 ` Jacob Todd
2011-05-17 23:58 ` errno
@ 2011-05-18 8:33 ` Balwinder S Dheeman
2011-05-18 9:49 ` Peter A. Cejchan
2011-05-18 12:24 ` blstuart
1 sibling, 2 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Balwinder S Dheeman @ 2011-05-18 8:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On 05/18/2011 05:12 AM, Jacob Todd wrote:
> Writing/porting web stuff to plan 9 will be hard. Writing something that
> accesses plan 9 from the web will be less hard.
"The KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) acronym has been popular in business
for decades, but its message has never been more important and, or
useful for many." -- Rob Tannen
"When simplifying, is's critical to target the right features for
excision, based on the customers' actual needs" -- Rob Tannen
"Solve simple problems and leave the hairy, difficult ones for everyone
else. Instead of one-upping, try one-downing" -- Rob Tannen
But, IMHO, we still need a good web-browser for Plan 9 as well.
BTW, I hate porting bloatware to clean, compact and efficient Plan 9.
--
Balwinder S "bdheeman" Dheeman
(http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
2011-05-18 8:33 ` Balwinder S Dheeman
@ 2011-05-18 9:49 ` Peter A. Cejchan
2011-05-18 12:24 ` blstuart
1 sibling, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Peter A. Cejchan @ 2011-05-18 9:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 841 bytes --]
> "The KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) acronym has been popular in business
for decades, but its message has never been more important and, or useful
for many." -- Rob Tannen
yes!!
>
> > BTW, I hate porting bloatware to clean, compact and efficient Plan 9.
>
so do i, however, sometimes time (and, in my case, skills) is not
sufficient to clean-up the mess that accumulated in the code over years, and
different maintainers), sigh...
So, instead of trying to port (the language part) of GNU R, I am learning
S+/R and rewriting to plain C, just now...
BTW, S(+) language originated in Bell Labs, didn't it? However, its clone,
R, has grown into monstrous all-capable all-inclusive application, or
platform per se.
"i hate applications. true computing is black. c++ is to c, as lung cancer
is to lung ;-)"
++pac
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread* Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
2011-05-18 8:33 ` Balwinder S Dheeman
2011-05-18 9:49 ` Peter A. Cejchan
@ 2011-05-18 12:24 ` blstuart
2011-05-18 14:23 ` David Leimbach
` (2 more replies)
1 sibling, 3 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: blstuart @ 2011-05-18 12:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> On 05/18/2011 05:12 AM, Jacob Todd wrote:
>> Writing/porting web stuff to plan 9 will be hard. Writing something that
>> accesses plan 9 from the web will be less hard.
>
> "The KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) acronym has been popular in business
> for decades, but its message has never been more important and, or
> useful for many." -- Rob Tannen
>
> "When simplifying, is's critical to target the right features for
> excision, based on the customers' actual needs" -- Rob Tannen
I'm confused. Why are we using business ideas to constrain what
we are doing with a research system? It seems to me that what
we work on (outside what puts food on the table) should be driven
primarily by what we find intellectually stimulating. I personally
get no stimulation over the idea of porting an existing web browser.
However, the idea of an emulator in a highly portable environment
was interesting enough that I looked around some and found a
PDP-11 emulator running 6th Edition (also in js). I couldn't help
but think about extending Bellard's work to include a drawable
device and a network interface and then building a Plan 9 terminal
for it, or running native Inferno on it, or using the same ideas to
build a Dis VM in js, or... It's true that utility can be a meaningful
motivator for what questions we look at, but if all you care about
is utility, it's hard to beat an android tablet. Like most of us, I
worry about what customers want in my day job. But what
customers want is boring to the point of suicide. To borrow from
the bard; "There is more in the computing universe than is dreamt
of in the PC/Web philosophy." Plan 9 and Inferno are the best
places I've found to glimpse that hidden beauty.
BLS
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread* Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
2011-05-18 12:24 ` blstuart
@ 2011-05-18 14:23 ` David Leimbach
2011-05-18 15:37 ` Balwinder S Dheeman
2011-05-18 15:58 ` ComeauAt9Fans@gmail.com
2 siblings, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: David Leimbach @ 2011-05-18 14:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs; +Cc: 9fans
Sent from my iPhone
On May 18, 2011, at 5:24 AM, blstuart@bellsouth.net wrote:
>> On 05/18/2011 05:12 AM, Jacob Todd wrote:
>>> Writing/porting web stuff to plan 9 will be hard. Writing something that
>>> accesses plan 9 from the web will be less hard.
>>
>> "The KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) acronym has been popular in business
>> for decades, but its message has never been more important and, or
>> useful for many." -- Rob Tannen
>>
>> "When simplifying, is's critical to target the right features for
>> excision, based on the customers' actual needs" -- Rob Tannen
>
> I'm confused. Why are we using business ideas to constrain what
> we are doing with a research system? It seems to me that what
> we work on (outside what puts food on the table) should be driven
> primarily by what we find intellectually stimulating. I personally
> get no stimulation over the idea of porting an existing web browser.
> However, the idea of an emulator in a highly portable environment
> was interesting enough that I looked around some and found a
> PDP-11 emulator running 6th Edition (also in js). I couldn't help
> but think about extending Bellard's work to include a drawable
> device and a network interface and then building a Plan 9 terminal
> for it, or running native Inferno on it, or using the same ideas to
> build a Dis VM in js, or... It's true that utility can be a meaningful
> motivator for what questions we look at, but if all you care about
> is utility, it's hard to beat an android tablet. Like most of us, I
> worry about what customers want in my day job. But what
> customers want is boring to the point of suicide. To borrow from
> the bard; "There is more in the computing universe than is dreamt
> of in the PC/Web philosophy." Plan 9 and Inferno are the best
> places I've found to glimpse that hidden beauty.
>
> BLS
>
>
I don't think there's any real constraints. Bottom line is the code is there and it's pretty nice. You can do what you want. If you seek outside approval to chase an idea, you've already failed the most important person in the equation - yourself.
Who cares what anyone else thinks?
Or as Homer Simpson said, "I'm sure Einstein turned himself all kinds of colors before he invented the light bulb".
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
2011-05-18 12:24 ` blstuart
2011-05-18 14:23 ` David Leimbach
@ 2011-05-18 15:37 ` Balwinder S Dheeman
2011-05-18 15:46 ` erik quanstrom
2011-05-19 1:04 ` blstuart
2011-05-18 15:58 ` ComeauAt9Fans@gmail.com
2 siblings, 2 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Balwinder S Dheeman @ 2011-05-18 15:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On 05/18/2011 05:56 PM, blstuart@bellsouth.net wrote:
>> On 05/18/2011 05:12 AM, Jacob Todd wrote:
>>> Writing/porting web stuff to plan 9 will be hard. Writing something that
>>> accesses plan 9 from the web will be less hard.
>>
>> "The KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) acronym has been popular in business
>> for decades, but its message has never been more important and, or
>> useful for many." -- Rob Tannen
>>
>> "When simplifying, is's critical to target the right features for
>> excision, based on the customers' actual needs" -- Rob Tannen
>
> I'm confused. Why are we using business ideas to constrain what
> we are doing with a research system? It seems to me that what
> we work on (outside what puts food on the table) should be driven
> primarily by what we find intellectually stimulating. I personally
> get no stimulation over the idea of porting an existing web browser.
> However, the idea of an emulator in a highly portable environment
> was interesting enough that I looked around some and found a
> PDP-11 emulator running 6th Edition (also in js). I couldn't help
> but think about extending Bellard's work to include a drawable
> device and a network interface and then building a Plan 9 terminal
> for it, or running native Inferno on it, or using the same ideas to
> build a Dis VM in js, or... It's true that utility can be a meaningful
> motivator for what questions we look at, but if all you care about
> is utility, it's hard to beat an android tablet. Like most of us, I
> worry about what customers want in my day job. But what
> customers want is boring to the point of suicide. To borrow from
> the bard; "There is more in the computing universe than is dreamt
> of in the PC/Web philosophy." Plan 9 and Inferno are the best
> places I've found to glimpse that hidden beauty.
How useful a research could be which is not backed by a business idea?
Who will fund such projects, why and for how long?
OTOH, nobody is going to stop anyone going his/her own way; everyone has
a right to beat his/her drum and that too either at any rhythm or no
rhythm at all ;)
However, the *real* programmers are different and they should/must know
well what they are doing and why?
--
Balwinder S "bdheeman" Dheeman
(http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
2011-05-18 15:37 ` Balwinder S Dheeman
@ 2011-05-18 15:46 ` erik quanstrom
2011-05-20 12:41 ` Balwinder S Dheeman
2011-05-19 1:04 ` blstuart
1 sibling, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: erik quanstrom @ 2011-05-18 15:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>
> How useful a research could be which is not backed by a business idea?
> Who will fund such projects, why and for how long?
>
you mean a research project like unix or plan 9?
- erik
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
2011-05-18 15:46 ` erik quanstrom
@ 2011-05-20 12:41 ` Balwinder S Dheeman
0 siblings, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Balwinder S Dheeman @ 2011-05-20 12:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On 05/18/2011 09:37 PM, erik quanstrom wrote:
>>
>> How useful a research could be which is not backed by a business idea?
>> Who will fund such projects, why and for how long?
>>
>
> you mean a research project like unix or plan 9?
Yes, even Minix and Linux kernel also.
If I'm not wrong Andrew S. Tanenbaum started Minix for educational and,
or research purpose, which inspired the creation of Linux kernel and
Linus Torvalds started it as a hobby and, or research project.
--
Balwinder S "bdheeman" Dheeman
(http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/)
Choosing a distro-comp.os.linux.misc|Google Groups http://bit.ly/hEq1Z
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
2011-05-18 15:37 ` Balwinder S Dheeman
2011-05-18 15:46 ` erik quanstrom
@ 2011-05-19 1:04 ` blstuart
1 sibling, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: blstuart @ 2011-05-19 1:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> How useful a research could be which is not backed by a business idea?
That's kind of the point I was getting at. Asking how research
is useful isn't asking the most telling question. Research isn't
always about utility; it's about intellectual contribution. Of
course, it's great when research results find their way into
application, but not having direct application (yet) doesn't
devalue the research.
> Who will fund such projects, why and for how long?
Although this seems to have been systematically ignored for
the last 30 years or so, I would argue that an enlightened
organization will recognize that to be innovative in the future,
they must ask the questions no one knows the answers to
now. Some fraction of those questions will lead to practical
applications and some won't. Whether you are measuring
success in competitive advantage or in papers published,
that's why an organization will invest in research.
One way I've described it before is that if you gather together
smart people, give them resources and freedom, you won't
know ahead of time what they'll come up with, but you can
count on them coming up with something. In some cases,
what they come up with is driven by application, like with
the transistor. In some cases, the main applications will
be discovered later as people study the results. To some
extent the LASER falls into that category. And in some cases,
the result has little or no practical application, but it becomes
part of what defines us and our understanding of ourselves.
I'd count the discovery of the cosmic background radiation
in that. IMHO we would all be diminished had any of those
avenues of research been cut off because they were a "cost"
that didn't have a short-term ROI.
> OTOH, nobody is going to stop anyone going his/her own way; everyone has
> a right to beat his/her drum and that too either at any rhythm or no
> rhythm at all ;)
Absolutely, and from where I sit, that's a key part of the 9fans
ethos. If someone has a good idea, then they are encouraged
to implement it and report on what they learn. The results
might get ignored, or they might spark somone else's creativity
to take it further. If it's a practical application that sparks the
idea, great. If it's pure curiosity, that's great too.
BLS
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
2011-05-18 12:24 ` blstuart
2011-05-18 14:23 ` David Leimbach
2011-05-18 15:37 ` Balwinder S Dheeman
@ 2011-05-18 15:58 ` ComeauAt9Fans@gmail.com
2 siblings, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: ComeauAt9Fans@gmail.com @ 2011-05-18 15:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
On May 18, 2011, at 8:24 AM, blstuart@bellsouth.net wrote:
> ...I'm confused. Why are we using business ideas to constrain what
> we are doing with a research system?
Probably good point. But that said did not Lucent try to market Plan 9 beyond that at some point, or do I have that wrong?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
2011-05-17 17:23 ` Peter A. Cejchan
2011-05-17 17:31 ` John Floren
@ 2011-05-17 18:16 ` Skip Tavakkolian
2011-05-18 6:31 ` Peter A. Cejchan
2 siblings, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Skip Tavakkolian @ 2011-05-17 18:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
i don't know what compromise you're talking about; anything that can
implement and use 9P is a legitimate component to attach to Plan 9.
browsers are the predominant way that users connect to the Net;
websockets in html5 provide the ability to establish a full duplex tcp
connection. why shouldn't we want to use the browser as a 9P server or
client?
On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 10:23 AM, Peter A. Cejchan <tyapca7@gmail.com> wrote:
> Folks,
> i am very unhappy seeing this kind of discussions here (and, the wasted
> potential to do something more useful in my eyes, sorry, but IMHO)... it
> resembles me very much the times when Steve Jobbs compromised the ideas of
> the NeXTstep, first downgrading it to the OpenStep for Windoze users, then
> downgrading to MacOS X...... look, what happened to linux, bsd, etc: it's
> all approaching the silly model of windoze, you'll kill me but its IMHO... i
> don't want zillion of comp. languages to learn when they are capable of
> mostly the same ... please, please, Bell Labs people, please, do not
> compromise the ideas... believe me, it was not very much easy to me to throw
> away all the boilerplate apps served on linux and do the C port of many
> (>70) of them to switch to native plan9, but i feel it was one of the best
> decisions in my (professional) life, and remember, i am not a programmer, i
> am a paleobiologist, hence , user...
> Just my sad feelings... native plan9 deserves more focus than it gets,
> imho... i would hate to see plan9 as a plugin for Mozilla 20.0
>
> Sincerely, Peter, aka
> ++pac
> a proud user of plan9 since 2001...
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] crazy idea - drawterm in javascript?
2011-05-17 17:23 ` Peter A. Cejchan
2011-05-17 17:31 ` John Floren
2011-05-17 18:16 ` Skip Tavakkolian
@ 2011-05-18 6:31 ` Peter A. Cejchan
2011-05-18 7:28 ` Charles Forsyth
2 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Peter A. Cejchan @ 2011-05-18 6:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
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i was overly emotional, sorry. i also overlooked that the debate is about
drawterm, a non-plan9 program. doubly sorry.
still, to my taste, to much effort is devoted to things outside the
system... however, i am not an MBA, maybe, it is all right.
wishing a fantastic day,
++pac
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread