Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

[sirjofri <sirjofri+ml-9fans@sirjofri.de>]

So, with that definition, the system described in the paper "Plan 9 from bell labs" is not plan9, because it describes any system that uses the same concepts?

So, plan9 is like UNIX™ and there's no such thing as a concept about plan 9?

Note that 9front never claimed to be a continuation, but a fork. The people who desperately cry for a continuation of plan 9 either claim 9front as a continuation, or explicitly not.

People who want a continuation of plan 9 missed the train a long time ago. There won't be an official continuation of plan 9, and that's a fact, because p9f won't do it.

It's not the devs who claim a continuation of plan9, it's the people asking for it.

And if people want just a continuation of the concepts (the concepts which are commonly understood as "plan 9"), 9front is also one of those continuations, same as 9legacy or any other fork that tries to live those concepts.

So, you could say, plan 9 from bell labs is the last released version, 4th edition. The others (9legacy, 9front, ...) are also plan 9, just not plan 9 from bell labs.

Similar to how UNIX™ is a unix, as is any linux system, bsd and mac.

13.05.2024 11:23:16 ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>:

>> I would make a big difference between what plan 9 is and what the licenses are. Software doesn't care about licenses. People do (and they should!).
>> 
>> So what is plan 9 even? Can we compare it to UNIX™ or unix or posix? Who knows...
>> 
>> I guess I could say a lot more about that topic, but I guess that's enough and you can puzzle everything else yourself.
> 
> plan9 is simply the final release made by bell labs and now owned by p9f. Thats not my interpretation this is a fact. Everything beyond that point is a fork based on plan9. 
> 
> Everyone is allowed to derive his/her work from this provided version of plan9.
> 
> 9front is a fork, 9legacy is a fork and there were other forks. I have my own fork. If tomorrow another one decides to fork plan9 than thats okay.
> 
> 9front isn't plan9. 9front is a fork based on plan9. Why is it that you can't accept this fact. You aren't the owners of plan9 and you don't  even own the trademark plan9.
> 
> Your fork is called 9front and its absolutely okay to fork from code with a license that allows this.
> 
> Your fork based on plan9 is extremely close to the original. But that doesn't mean you are the continuation of plan9.
> 
> The only thing we can agree on as fork developers is what is officially called plan9 as a basement for exchange of code ideas aso. Code that can be compiled and executed on the official release is one that can be exchanged.
> 
> There is only one group on this messaging board which has a problem with this definition of plan9 thats 9front. You insist on being seen as the continuation of plan9 but you aren't. You could have become this by buying plan9 from nokia and the trademark or nokia could have chosen you to hand it over to you but they didn't. p9f owns plan9 and if they ever decide to hand it over to you than you become officially the owner and continuation of plan9 but this won't change the fact that meanwhile others have forked from plan9 and call themselves fork xyz based on plan9 and you to respect this.
> 
> Why is it so difficult for folks of 9front to accept that they are providing a fork based on plan9.
> 
>> [1] (I would be very careful with such bold words. I feel like 9front people have heard this phrase a lot and it's probably very thin ice for a few people.)
>> 
> 
> And so what ? Compared to the replies of some folks from 9front regarding simple questions there is nothing bold about my statements. This is 9fans and if you start the same discussions over and over again than you have to live with answers like mine. Neither you nor I own plan9 while people outside 9front have no problem with facts you have this problem. You can't just accept the fact that 9front is a fork like many others. You may do a good job for your users and many enjoy using 9front as stated many times here on this board but but you do your job others do their job and you are in no position to give directions to others. I respect your work continue with it but don't act as if you are the ones who are in possession of plan9 or can dictate directions you can't and I also can't. I'm fed up with the regularly disputes you search with people who don't want to use your fork. I'm not using it and nothing will change my mind.
> 
>> About another topic: you mentioned that plan 9 is in use for commercial products, and you explicitly mention german medical sensors. I've never heard about that and I'd like to learn more, as well as about other companies who actually use plan 9.
>> 
>> Everything I always hear in the industry is that plan 9 is outdated and nobody uses it and nobody wants to hear about it. I only know of a single company that uses it (coraid), plus a few little projects by taw that could evolve into commercial products.
> 
> I am and have acted as an advisor for many of these projects. The license change made it attractive for such projects cause you can keep your code closed source. The only duty to fulfill is providing the terms of the MIT license. You don't have to make your technology open source like you would have to if you used Linux.
> 
> Don't underestimate the potential. Another example for a tiny os which is wide spread is Xinu which no one would expect. Plan9 has advantages over other systems that makes it attractive. I can only talk about those projects I know but be assured there are millions of devices around which run plan9 without anyone noticing.
> 
> 
> Again for the x-th time : I don't have a problem with 9front. I don't use it but I respect your work. The only think I dislike is the never ending discussions about plan9 being dead and 9front being the only choice and the attitude in some replies to questions of people on this board in an harsh and aggressive way. The moment one asks about 9legacy or plan9 and one from 9front advices to use 9front without success many of 9front getting aggressive and thats not right.
> 
> 
> 
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