Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

[vester.thacker@fastmail.fm]

Thank you, Hiro, for your insights.

I apologize to everyone for my intense and fervent approach; I acknowledge that I often overlook subtleties. To add a bit of humor, even my son has saved my contact as "Rambo" in his mobile phone. :-)

Vic


On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 00:55, hiro wrote:
> this is mostly wild speculation. further, the numbers are not
> representative at all.
> since the import of the (possibly redundent) 9k amd64 work from "labs"
> (which in this case might mean geoff+charles?) 2 years ago there were
> zero active developers contributing to 9legacy.
>
> please note, that stuff has been developed in the dark and without any
> kind of open community process, also not in 9legacy but in some other
> fork (that is unknown to me). it was pulled in by 9legacy but i have
> no clue from where and why.
> there was near zero communication about that other fork, and what it's
> plan was, or who might want to use 9k nowadays, and for what purposes.
> since this was not developed in the open and not discussed with 9front
> people we are at this point largely ignorant of what 9k can do. i
> would appreciate a more in-depth comparison if possible, though i fear
> 9k is about as dead as plan9 4th edition (and 9legacy for that matter)
> at this point. sorry for my doubts.
>
> On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 5:13 PM <vic.thacker@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>
>> My understanding is that the initial request came from a 9legacy member to the 9front community, and the responses were quite intriguing. It has led me to ponder how we might bridge the gap between these communities. There seems to be conflict on both sides, and for some reason, I hold 9front to higher standards—perhaps because of our more idealistic roots. The core mission of 9front was always to advance the Plan 9 tradition, but not at the cost of alienating others.
>>
>> From what I observe, there seem to be only a handful of active developers remaining in each group. Initially, I believed we had around 30 active developers in 9front and about 7 in 9legacy, but I now think I may have overestimated these numbers. It appears that many are staying on the sidelines, possibly due to past grievances, which could explain the responses I've seen. The developers who are active might be overextended, while those who are less active might feel marginalized.
>>
>> Vic
>>
>>
>> On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 22:23, qwx@nopenopenope.net wrote:
>> > On Sun May 12 14:43:17 +0200 2024, vester.thacker@fastmail.fm wrote:
>> >> I don't mind the ad hominem attacks.  I just hope things improve. I do find it ironic that I'm addressing the 9front community about collaboration and inclusiveness when I recall those as being two reasons for the inception of 9front.
>> >>
>> >> Vic
>> >
>> > You hit the nail on the head there.  Why *are* you addressing just the
>> > 9front community or assuming there is no willingness to collaborate on
>> > its part?  9legacy users so far have expressed interest in someone
>> > else porting dp9ik (David for instance) or demanded explanations about
>> > DES cracking (Richard) or asked for others to port or fix fossil on
>> > 9front (Lucio), but who explicitely said that they would like to put
>> > in some work themselves and collaborate with 9front people?  Maybe I'm
>> > beginning to misremember the rest of the thread, am I missing
>> > anything?  Could you point to *specific examples*?
>> >
>> > 9front users demand code because they've already put in a lot of work
>> > and it has been often ignored or dismissed, and because it would be up
>> > to them to backport it to 9legacy -- why would they do double duty for
>> > a system they don't use and a community which is generally not
>> > receptive to their work?  Also, do you realize that 9front right now
>> > has upwards of 10500 changes in the repository, after 13 years?
>> > Bringing 9legacy up to date as you've proposed would require a
>> > colossal amount of work, all just to obtain...  9front.  Do you
>> > believe it has diverged to the point where backporting hardware
>> > support, fixing bugs and broken or incomplete implementations and so
>> > on will result in anything other than what 9front already is?
>> >
>> > You yourself demand everyone, especially the 9front community, to make
>> > suggestions, start projects, etc.  What about you?  What do you
>> > suggest to do and which projects would you take part in?  That's what
>> > "just send the code" implies.  Promises don't fix bugs or help
>> > implement programs, nor help fix this one-sided conversation.
>> >
>> > I'm asking these questions yet I fear that they will meet radio
>> > silence or more empty walls of text, as it happens too often here
>> > when asking "why" or how it came to this.  I hope I'm wrong.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > qwx
>> >
>> > PS: I was about to hit send when I received Richard's mail.
>> > Richard, thank you for the constructive and detailed response.
>> > I hope this marks a turn of the tide.

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