RE: [Caml-list] Who controls INRIA mailserv filters?

RE: [Caml-list] Who controls INRIA mailserv filters?

[Brandon J. Van Every]

Brandon J. Van Every
>
> > Two things are clear here: the filter think that discussions of food
> > and restaurants aren't on topic here; moreover, your attempt to
> > disguise Yahoo into something else clearly backfired.  If you write
> > like spammers, you'll be filtered like spammers, that's for sure.
>
> I did not discuss Yahoo.  Ergo, no attempt on my part to
> disguise anything.

I forgot that I did indeed do that, at 5 in the morning.


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brand*n Van Every               S*attle, WA

Praise Be to the caml-list Bayesian filter! It blesseth
my postings, it is evil crap!  evil crap!  Bigarray!
Unboxed overhead group!  Wondering!  chant chant chant...

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Re: [Caml-list] Who controls INRIA mailserv filters?

[Xavier Leroy]

> I am irritated, yet again, that I cannot get my announcement for ML
> S*attle to pass the mailserv filters.  Who do I e-mail to do something
> about this?  I also want the words "Brand*n" and "S*attle" removed from
> the bayesian filter.  They are an unreasonable detriment to my ongoing
> organization of OCaml local discussion groups and mailing lists, and
> frankly I'm suspicious that someone put them there deliberately.

Don't get paranoid, please.  If we wanted to prevent you from posting
on this list, you'd be blacklisted for good and none of your posts
would show up.  That happened once for a really abusive poster.  Your
messages aren't abusive, just very repetitive, devoid of technical
content, and full of misconceptions.  Some of your recent Usenet
postings left me shaking my head in disbelief, not knowing whether to
laugh or cry.  But again that's not reason for blacklisting.

It's amusing (as usual) to look at why your announcements are
rejected.  Below are the words on which the filter latched, thinly
disguised.  First attempt:

b r a n d o n : 99
m e e t s : 99
s t u m b l i n g : 01
c a p i t o l : 99
s t u m b l i n g : 01
1 6 3 5: 99
r e s t a u r a n t : 99
s p e c i a l t y : 99
s p e c i a l t y : 99
p a r k i n g : 99
c a p i t o l : 99
p a r k i n g : 99
c a m l -l i s t : 01
b a y e s i a n : 01
c r a p : 01 

Second attempt: 

b r a n d o n : 99
m e e t s : 99
s t u m b l i n g : 01
c a p i t o l : 99
y a h : 99
s t u m b l i n g : 01
1 6 3 5: 99
r e s t a u r a n t : 99
s p e c i a l t y : 99
s p e c i a l t y : 99
p a r k i n g : 99
c a p i t o l : 99
p a r k i n g : 99
c a m l -l i s t : 01
b a y e s i a n: 01 

Two things are clear here: the filter think that discussions of food
and restaurants aren't on topic here; moreover, your attempt to
disguise Yahoo into something else clearly backfired.  If you write
like spammers, you'll be filtered like spammers, that's for sure.

My feeling is that the filter is doing its job quite well (if it
wasn't, there would be several dozens spams a day on this list) and
the last thing I wish to do is offset its delicate balance.  Besides,
I have more interesting things to do.  

Finally, my parents taught me not to use "I want" in polite company,
so I find your demands somewhat rude.  Posting to caml-list isn't a
right, it's a privilege.

Why don't you just put the details of your meeting on a web page and
post a short message "Next meeting on <such date>, see http://URL for
practical details"?  You do realize that > 95% of the subscribers don't
leave in Seattle and couldn't care less about the delicacies and car
park available there, right?

In one of your several follow-ups, you add:

> When I look back over my posts, I see sufficient technical
> content.  You may not like business or organizational issues, or the
> kinds of theatrics they can precipitate, but that's the growing pains of
> any language.  You show me a serious caml-biz list, and I will take the
> traffic there.  Until then, you're stuck with me here.

Sorry if I'm going to flame you, but you should be aware of the following:

- I and many other caml-list regulars don't see sufficient technical
  content.  Your grasp of technical stuff seems quite thin.
- I and many other caml-list regulars don't wish to discuss business
  issues with you.  I don't discuss business on open mailing lists.
- I and many other caml-list regulars don't like your theatrics.
  This isn't Actor's studio.
- The growing pains you mention weren't apparent to us before you
  started making such a noise on this list.
- You're most welcome to create your caml-biz list and discuss whatever
  you want there.  Actually, I feel you aren't interested in discussions
  as much as in asserting your preconceptions, which makes you prime
  material for blogging.
- As I explained above, posting to this list isn't a right, so we
  are not at all "stuck with you here".

Thanks for your attention.

- Xavier Leroy

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RE: [Caml-list] Who controls INRIA mailserv filters?

[Brandon J. Van Every]

Diego Olivier
>
> When I recommend you to make your post more technical it means :
>
> - adding blocks of Caml code in your signature instead of the current
> one that just says the Caml filter is a crap (exercice : make a Caml
> program that chooses randomly 20 lines of code in the Caml compiler
> and adds them to your signature)

Not a bad idea, and less audacious than using Xavier as my trojan.  :-)
Testfiring now.

> - using more specifically Caml oriented words - something like "In the
> next Seattle meeting we will discuss how inclusion polymorphism /
> functors < add technical content here > can be applied to 3D rendering
> for real-time games < add technical content here >"

I'm not interested in watering down the brevity and clarity of the
announcement.  We meet *in person* to discuss such things.


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA


// return an array of 100 packed tuples
temps
  int $[tvar0][2*100]; // what the c function needs
  value $[tvar1]; // one int
  value $[tvar2]; // one tuple
  int $[tvar3] // loop control var
oncePre
eachPre
  $[cvar0]=&($[tvar0][0]);
eachPost
  $[lvar0] = alloc(2*100, 0 /*NB: zero-tagged block*/ );
  for(int $[tvar3]=0;$[tvar3]<100;$[tvar3]++) {
    $[tvar2] = alloc_tuple(2);
    $[tvar1] = Val_int($[cvar0][0+2*$[tvar3]]);
    Store_field($[tvar2],0,$[tvar1]);
    $[tvar1] = Val_int($[cvar0][1]);
    Store_field($[tvar2],1,$[tvar1+2*$[tvar3]]);
    Array_store($[lvar0],$[tvar3],$[tvar0]);
  }
oncePost

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RE: [Caml-list] Who controls INRIA mailserv filters?

[Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons]

    Bonjour,

> What's getting filtered are announces of ML S*attle, which is
> legitimate traffic

[...]

> Also do you really believe this bayesian filter retrains if I
> exercise "good behavior?"  I don't; I think it's dumb as bricks.

[...]

> You may not like business or organizational issues, or the kinds of
> theatrics they can precipitate, but that's the growing pains of any
> language

The point is not what I (or whoever) think but what the bayesian
filter does or does not filter. It is _just_ a bayesian filter, not a
semantic based natural language parser.

When I recommend you to make your post more technical it means :

- adding blocks of Caml code in your signature instead of the current
one that just says the Caml filter is a crap (exercice : make a Caml
program that chooses randomly 20 lines of code in the Caml compiler
and adds them to your signature)

- using more specifically Caml oriented words - something like "In the
next Seattle meeting we will discuss how inclusion polymorphism /
functors < add technical content here > can be applied to 3D rendering
for real-time games < add technical content here >"


        Diego Olivier

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Re: [Caml-list] Who controls INRIA mailserv filters?

[Sven Luther]

On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 12:36:02AM -0700, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> don groves wrote:
> > At 14:22 8/11/2004, don groves wrote:
> > >At 13:29 8/11/2004, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> > >
> > >Maybe if you spelled S*attle correctly the filter would pass it.
> > >Most, if not all, words with embedded non-alpha characters these
> > >days are ads for V!agr@ or C!@lis so the filter gets trained
> > on those.
> >
> > Nope, that's not it ;)
> 
> I am unsure of your antecedant, so I'm unsure what you mean by your
> followup.
> 
> If you look at the X-Sp*m header of your 2 posts, you will see a list of
> words.  Those with high values like 99's increase the likelihood that
> your post will be classified as sp*m.  That is why I use an asterisk
> with them.  The problem words in your own posts are:
> 
>   brand*n
>   spell*d
>   s*attle
>   agggggr (only 1 g, probably part of vairga (letters transposed to
> protect us all))
>   addddds (only 1 d)
>   traff*c
> 
> Bear in mind that each and every one of my posts carries an automatic
> strike against me.  Even though I'm willing to use Brand*n in my
> signature, I'm totally unwilling to create a separate e-mail identity
> just for caml-list.  So every one of my posts has 1 correctly spelled
> occurrance of Brand*n in it.
> 
> I bet, furthermore, that you will not see the word S*attle (correctly
> spelled) in the X-sp*m header of this post.  This would disprove your
> claim about * being a red flag for the filter, unless the filter does
> not in fact report full information about how it makes its decisions.

Bah, just do as spammers do, and quote a considerable portion of one of
Xavier's posts to this list as a signature. Works like a charm for spammers to
defeat bayesian filters, so should be ok for you too.

Friendly,

Sven Luther

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RE: [Caml-list] Who controls INRIA mailserv filters?

[Brandon J. Van Every]

don groves wrote:
> At 14:22 8/11/2004, don groves wrote:
> >At 13:29 8/11/2004, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> >
> >Maybe if you spelled S*attle correctly the filter would pass it.
> >Most, if not all, words with embedded non-alpha characters these
> >days are ads for V!agr@ or C!@lis so the filter gets trained
> on those.
>
> Nope, that's not it ;)

I am unsure of your antecedant, so I'm unsure what you mean by your
followup.

If you look at the X-Sp*m header of your 2 posts, you will see a list of
words.  Those with high values like 99's increase the likelihood that
your post will be classified as sp*m.  That is why I use an asterisk
with them.  The problem words in your own posts are:

  brand*n
  spell*d
  s*attle
  agggggr (only 1 g, probably part of vairga (letters transposed to
protect us all))
  addddds (only 1 d)
  traff*c

Bear in mind that each and every one of my posts carries an automatic
strike against me.  Even though I'm willing to use Brand*n in my
signature, I'm totally unwilling to create a separate e-mail identity
just for caml-list.  So every one of my posts has 1 correctly spelled
occurrance of Brand*n in it.

I bet, furthermore, that you will not see the word S*attle (correctly
spelled) in the X-sp*m header of this post.  This would disprove your
claim about * being a red flag for the filter, unless the filter does
not in fact report full information about how it makes its decisions.


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brand*n Van Every               S*attle, WA

Praise Be to the caml-list Bayesian filter! It blesseth
my postings, it is evil crap!  evil crap!  Bigarray!
Unboxed overhead group!  Wondering!  chant chant chant...

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RE: [Caml-list] Who controls INRIA mailserv filters?

[don groves]

At 14:22 8/11/2004, don groves wrote:
>At 13:29 8/11/2004, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>>Diego Olivier wrote:
>> >
>> > My advice : make you posts more technical.
>>
>>What's getting filtered are announces of ML S*attle, which is legitimate
>>traffic.
>
>
>Maybe if you spelled Seattle correctly the filter would pass it.
>Most, if not all, words with embedded non-alpha characters these
>days are ads for V!agr@ or C!@lis so the filter gets trained on those.
>--
>dg


Nope, that's not it ;)
--
dg


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RE: [Caml-list] Who controls INRIA mailserv filters?

[don groves]

At 13:29 8/11/2004, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>Diego Olivier wrote:
> >
> > My advice : make you posts more technical.
>
>What's getting filtered are announces of ML S*attle, which is legitimate
>traffic.


Maybe if you spelled Seattle correctly the filter would pass it.
Most, if not all, words with embedded non-alpha characters these
days are ads for V!agr@ or C!@lis so the filter gets trained on those.
--
dg



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RE: [Caml-list] Who controls INRIA mailserv filters?

[Brandon J. Van Every]

Diego Olivier wrote:
>
> My advice : make you posts more technical.

What's getting filtered are announces of ML S*attle, which is legitimate
traffic.  That means it contains some secret problem word I don't know
about.  Once I started using my anti-bayesian signature, all my other
posts have been getting through just fine.

Also do you really believe this bayesian filter retrains if I exercise
"good behavior?"  I don't; I think it's dumb as bricks.  In any event I
don't care about your personal tastes as to what constitutes "good
behavior."  When I look back over my posts, I see sufficient technical
content.  You may not like business or organizational issues, or the
kinds of theatrics they can precipitate, but that's the growing pains of
any language.  You show me a serious caml-biz list, and I will take the
traffic there.  Until then, you're stuck with me here.

The point of a bayesian filter is to eliminate naykid laydees and
whatnot, not censor as a pseudo-moderator.  I hope nobody ever arrives
at the world view that this postblocking nonsense I'm experiencing is a
legitimate judgement of content.  That would be a sad day for diversity
of opinion, or frankly, for human intelligence.  And with that, I recite
the liturgy:


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brand*n Van Every               S*attle, WA

Praise Be to the caml-list Bayesian filter! It blesseth
my postings, it is evil crap!  evil crap!  Bigarray!
Unboxed overhead group!  Wondering!  chant chant chant...

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Re: [Caml-list] Who controls INRIA mailserv filters?

[Diego Olivier Fernandez Pons]

    Bonjour,

> I am irritated, yet again, that I cannot get my announcement for ML
> S*attle to pass the mailserv filters.

Your announcements and more generally speaking most of your posts have
very low 'technical' content. You spend much more time discussing
general considerations on Caml than specific technical problems.

It is then not very surprising that a bayesian filter find your post
quite strange with respect to usual caml-list traffic.

> frankly I'm suspicious that someone put them there deliberately.

Someone at Cristal group will surely answer to that one, but in my
opinion it is just 'delirium tremens' or paranoïa if you prefer.

Consider also there might be caml users who do not want undesirable
emails to arrive by the caml-list. And I am one of those.

My advice : make you posts more technical.


        Diego Olivier

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[Caml-list] Who controls INRIA mailserv filters?

[Brandon J. Van Every]

I am irritated, yet again, that I cannot get my announcement for ML
S*attle to pass the mailserv filters.  Who do I e-mail to do something
about this?  I also want the words "Brand*n" and "S*attle" removed from
the bayesian filter.  They are an unreasonable detriment to my ongoing
organization of OCaml local discussion groups and mailing lists, and
frankly I'm suspicious that someone put them there deliberately.  Either
that or the bayesian filter is stupid enough to assume that any high
volume of posts must by needs be filtered.


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brand*n Van Every               S*attle, WA

Praise Be to the caml-list Bayesian filter! It blesseth
my postings, it is evil crap!  evil crap!  Bigarray!
Unboxed overhead group!  Wondering!  chant chant chant...

-------------------
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