[9fans] fortune-worthy

[9fans] fortune-worthy

[andrey mirtchovski]

this one comes from a heated slashdot discussion someone had with somebody
else:

	"Plan9 is just another Hurd -- a theoretically great OS that
	only gets used by a few people. The most it can hope for is that
	its best principles are adopted by a real OS."

just letting you know where you are: andrey

ps: i'll gladly accept suggestions as to what this OS may be (inferno is
honorably excluded) and promise to summarize it in the Wiki :)

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[ron minnich]

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, andrey mirtchovski wrote:

> 	"Plan9 is just another Hurd -- a theoretically great OS that
> 	only gets used by a few people. The most it can hope for is that
> 	its best principles are adopted by a real OS."

all the same stupid shit people always say. maybe they're right, maybe
wrong.

But they all said the same thing about Unix, long ago ...

ron

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[okamoto]

> all the same stupid shit people always say. maybe they're right, maybe 
> wrong. 
> 
> But they all said the same thing about Unix, long ago ...

However, now, things have been changed, that is,
now most of computer users are naive users, and they
don't want to LEARN computers.   So, I don't worry about the
number of Plan 9 users, because it's very natural in these days.
So, I use Plan 9 for developping, and anything other Linux, and
Windows at home.  ☺

Kenji

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[ron minnich]

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp wrote:

> However, now, things have been changed, that is, now most of computer
> users are naive users, and they don't want to LEARN computers.

In the great days of the 70s, I was a card punch/tape jockey. People were
pretty naive users then, believe me. The expectation then was that unix
was a nice toy, but the real work would always be done on OS/370. Unix
even had to have a JCL command for a while (according to an old V5 man set
I once had) for submitting batch jobs to "real" computers.

Some things never change, and resistance to new technology is one of them.
But, sooner or later, better new stuff will beat out older crap stuff. It
just always takes too long, and its easy to get discouraged. Plus, Plan 9
has this artificial and unnecessary 10-year delay thrown in -- it would
have been easier had Plan 9 made it out in '91, as we all hoped it would.

ron

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[okamoto]

> In the great days of the 70s, I was a card punch/tape jockey. People were 
> pretty naive users then, believe me. 

Now, people who have interest to something intelligent toys can select
Linux or BSDs, where too many of sources are there to play with.
Why thet do so, because more imformations are available for those unices
than Plan 9.   Just image how hard to make Plan 9 network for them.

> Some things never change, and resistance to new technology is one of them. 
> But, sooner or later, better new stuff will beat out older crap stuff. It 
> just always takes too long, and its easy to get discouraged. 

Yes, I agree.

>Plus, Plan 9 
> has this artificial and unnecessary 10-year delay thrown in -- it would 
> have been easier had Plan 9 made it out in '91, as we all hoped it would.

probably most parts of the delay came from License matter of Plan 9...
It has been too expensive to those who has much time but money.☺

Kenji

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[bs]

> Some things never change, and resistance to new technology is one of them.
IMO resistance to something new or different is one of them.

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[Fco.J.Ballesteros]

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IMHO, what will happen is that some years from now someone will
re-invent the technology Plan 9 users were using 20 years before,
give it a name like Java^H^H^H^H KJT9, and pretend that it's brand
new technology. At that point, people would probably adopt it.

My argument to support this claim is the history of CS.

Couldn't resist.

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From: okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 13:47:26 +0900
Message-ID: <ec94c93f9317b1c8700d2a125647ffab@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>

> all the same stupid shit people always say. maybe they're right, maybe 
> wrong. 
> 
> But they all said the same thing about Unix, long ago ...

However, now, things have been changed, that is,
now most of computer users are naive users, and they
don't want to LEARN computers.   So, I don't worry about the
number of Plan 9 users, because it's very natural in these days.
So, I use Plan 9 for developping, and anything other Linux, and
Windows at home.  ☺

Kenji

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[Matthias Teege]

Fco.J.Ballesteros <nemo@plan9.escet.urjc.es> writes:

> IMHO, what will happen is that some years from now someone will
> re-invent the technology Plan 9 users were using 20 years before,
> give it a name like Java^H^H^H^H KJT9, and pretend that it's brand
> new technology. At that point, people would probably adopt it.

It happens now. One of my customers rebuild his network with SAN
(fileserver), 20 Windows Terminalservers (CPU servers) and diskless
terminals. Oracle announced better support for "grid computing" in
10g.

Bis dann
Matthias

--
Matthias Teege -- http://www.mteege.de
make world not war

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[Brantley Coile]

Every few years I try something new.  I'm typing this on an XP system
using drawterm.  I tried the cygwin stuff (don't get me started!).  I've done
Oberon (which I really liked, but ...), New Linux, FreeBSD, and a years back
SUN with NCD Xterminals.  I always come back to Plan 9, and I'm thankful
that I can.

I don't just smell this way, I'm spoiled.

Brantley

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[Anastasopoulos S]

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, andrey mirtchovski wrote:

> this one comes from a heated slashdot discussion someone had with somebody
> else:
>
> 	"Plan9 is just another Hurd -- a theoretically great OS that
> 	only gets used by a few people. The most it can hope for is that
> 	its best principles are adopted by a real OS."
>
> just letting you know where you are: andrey
>
> ps: i'll gladly accept suggestions as to what this OS may be (inferno is
> honorably excluded) and promise to summarize it in the Wiki :)
>
>

I think that the main advantage of Plan9 is that it revived OS research
which was more or less irrelevant as Rob Pike pointed out. Its design and
implementation is very simple and you can try new ideas without having to
break the thick wall(COM, CORBA, Heavy APIs, 1G lines of source code...)
the other OSes happily provide.

Obviously it is not yet ready for prime time. It lacks a web brownser, a
better web server, quicktime, C++( I really like it ), GUI, a DBMS etc...
The core OS is however designed very well and all these can be integrated
very smoothly.

I think however that its main design goal---easy distribution of services
and resources and the shared environment it presents to the users---has
been 'superseded? replaced? ignored?(pick your favorite)' in the real
world by the web, and that is another discipline.

Nowadays the tendency is to provide web based distributed services and use
the brownser as the terminal. I can't say if that is good or bad but this
is how business are done today. In a plan9 world we would have a data base
server that would serve something like SQL/, we would import it in our
name space and then use our toolchain to manipulate it(cat, echo, awk or
custom ones). In the other world this is done with mozilla, PHP, MySQL.

It is my opinion that until Plan9 decides how to approach the web it will
continue to be used only for specialized domains(Question: how plan9 is
used as Bell-Labs and for what type of jobs? There isn't much information
about its real world usage).

An a final note, i completely disagree that is can survive if the other
OSes adopt its best features. Because we have one architecture(x86) that
means we must have one OS(linux i suppose). Plan9 is another design(better
or not you decide) and i would like to see more new OSes or ideas rather
than see linux take the world.

I think that the main reason plan9 is behind in development is that most
members of its community are more interested in the core OS(kernel, venti,
fossil) than in applications. The problem is that is very diffucult to
build from scratch applications like apache, MySQL, GIMP, OpenGL etc using
the native plan9 environment(not ape ports) and then compare the results
with the UNIX world but that would be the ultimate crash test.

Spyros

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[David Presotto]

> continue to be used only for specialized domains(Question: how plan9 is
> used as Bell-Labs and for what type of jobs? There isn't much information
> about its real world usage).

At the labs, its used as a development system for approximately 8 people.
It used to be a bigger crowd but Lucent, and to a lesser extent our lab,
has shrunk a lot over the last 3 years.

To a larger community (50 people) it is their main web server (about
100000 hits a day).

It is a mail server to yet a different subset of our lab, using imap
and pop3, as well as to those of us who use plan9 exclusively.  We depend on it
as our DNS server for cs.bell-labs.com and as the DHCP server for a handful
of networks (100 systems or so).  There are currently 3 large file servers,
about 10 CPU servers of various flavors (about half of them multiprocessors
of 2 to 16 cpus), and a few dozen terminals.

It is the authentication server used by both Unix and Plan 9 systems
so that people can use their netkeys (+ssh for example) to get into the
company from the outside internet.

We're using it as the embedded OS in telephony things we do in the lab.
For example, an encrypted home ethernet bridge, and a wireless base station.

And, of course, its still our music jukebox.

Given all that, if we had to make a business case for Plan 9, the company
would probably force us onto Windows for living and Linux for an embedded
OS.  In fact, they're on the campaign trail again to move the whole
company onto an environment that's cheaper for them to support.  We'll
survive that because we do things they can't (like DNS hacks, IP
protocol stack hacking, etc) but they'll take away some of users that
don't hack kernels.  It gets harder and harder to do business with the
rest of the company unless you live 100% of the time on the same Windows
OS that they use.   We see the ratcheting effect of proprietary tools
and formats, especially when the company decides on a single solution and
feeds it to the majority of employees.

While I'm happy about links, it doesn't really solve many of my problems.
It simply can't deal with the (ever changing) Microsoft based web environment
that Lucent has.  I have windows of time when the latest and greatest
mozilla/netcape can but those windows close over time (Firebird is currently
holding its own but I'm already seeing fraying at the edges).
We have a couple of NT and XP systems in our lab just so we can walk over,
log on, and deal with corporate administrative stuff every now and then.
A better multiuser version of VNC on windows would go a long way to
making life bearable on that front.

There's also the constant friction caused by not using the solution of the
day for embedded systems.  It used to be only Vxworks.  Now its slowly opening
up to Linux because its the flavor of the week at IBM and Lucent looks at
IBM as the model of a reincarnated big company.  The GPL scares management
somewhat which acts as a damping force.

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[suspect]

I am saddened by the fact that Inferno did not become
the primary research focus after its initial commercial
demise via the inferno BU.

My reason for saying this is, there is more incentive to
develop applications for Inferno than there is for Plan 9,
since those applications could be used on a multitude
of platforms.

It seems to me that with Inferno, it was said "we took all
the lessons we learned from Plan 9 and built a better system",
and then, it was all just discarded (by the primary researchers,
(politely disregarding for the moment, VN)).

Given how little manpower is left at the labs, unrealistic
as it might seem to some, I'd be glad to see the two systems
merged, for the sake of both surviving. The silly thing is, this
is already happening to a certain extent with Inferno 4e picking
up 9P2000, and slivers of  factotum, venti etc., as well as
drivers. Why duplicate the effort ? Why not take the best
of both worlds ?

cheers,



On Dec 17, 2003, at 9:29 AM, David Presotto wrote:

> While I'm happy about links, it doesn't really solve many of my
> problems.

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[Russ Cox]

> Given how little manpower is left at the labs, unrealistic
> as it might seem to some, I'd be glad to see the two systems
> merged, for the sake of both surviving. The silly thing is, this
> is already happening to a certain extent with Inferno 4e picking
> up 9P2000, and slivers of  factotum, venti etc., as well as
> drivers. Why duplicate the effort ? Why not take the best
> of both worlds ?

inferno can't run unix c programs.

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[suspect]

On Dec 17, 2003, at 12:41 AM, Russ Cox wrote:
>
> inferno can't run unix c programs.

That's a point, though many would admit for writing new
applications, many would prefer to write them in Limbo
(and know they will be available on other platforms too),
than to write them from scratch in C. The effort to be put into,
say, a web browser (to pick a recent example) is one case.

For already existing applications, there is the C to Limbo
translator, and then there is :

; date
Wed Dec 17 16:01:10 GMT 2003
; bind -a '#*myrmigki' /dev
; cd /dev/myrmigki/
; cat new
; cd 0
; echo -n srecl /srecs/dhrystone.sr > ctl
; tail -f stdout &
; echo -n run > ctl
;
Dhrystone Benchmark, Version 2.1 (Language: C)
Program compiled without 'register' attribute
Execution starts, 65536 runs through Dhrystone
...

Which lets you run compiled C programs, albeit not as
fast in as JIT compiled Limbo on Dis, over Inferno.

But what do I care, my livelihood depends neither on
Inferno nor Plan 9, and I'm neither a zealot nor a bigot :-)


cheers,



On Dec 17, 2003, at 12:41 AM, Russ Cox wrote:

>> Given how little manpower is left at the labs, unrealistic
>> as it might seem to some, I'd be glad to see the two systems
>> merged, for the sake of both surviving. The silly thing is, this
>> is already happening to a certain extent with Inferno 4e picking
>> up 9P2000, and slivers of  factotum, venti etc., as well as
>> drivers. Why duplicate the effort ? Why not take the best
>> of both worlds ?
>
> inferno can't run unix c programs.
>

inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[Geoff Collyer]

> For already existing applications, there is the C to Limbo translator,

This is news to me; where could one find more information?

> It seems to me that with Inferno, it was said "we took all the lessons
> we learned from Plan 9 and built a better system",

I wouldn't have included the words `all' and `better'.  The Inferno
that was handed to the BU was clearly inspired by Plan 9, but had a
lot missing, which was obvious to Plan 9 people, but most of the
people in the BU, especially management, were not Plan 9 people, and
thought they had a complete, ready-to-sell system.  As you can see
from all the work that Vitanuova have done since, that was not true.

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[Charles Forsyth]

>>thought they had a complete, ready-to-sell system.  As you can see
>>from all the work that Vitanuova have done since, that was not true.

it depends: for what their customers often had in mind to do with it, it was usable.
(what was sometimes done with it wasn't sufficiently inspired, i suppose.)
i have had some experience of VxWorks source
code, and `BSPs' for a few other systems, let alone `embedded' Linux,
and inferno as it was was a good order of magnitude beyond that.  it
had (has) bugs but the space in which they were (are) located was
finite.  `you can always think of something better to do'.
it didn't make much progress because too much time was spent chasing Sun's tales.

fear, uncertainty, doubt: these are the feelings i get when i must wade
through Linux code to find out how some device works.
fear that i'll not remain sane (temper long since lost); uncertainty where to
look next for what i want; doubt that it will be worth finding when i finally locate it.

instead of yet more bloody web browsers, if they've got time why don't people get
a DVD player going (so i needn't boot up windows at all)?  i find films more entertaining than games.
i looked at porting one briefly, but Plan 9 doesn't run unix c programs either.
actually, APE does manage unix programs but this was something else again.

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[Geoff Collyer]

What's the state of the law with respect to software DVD players?
Johansen, the kid who wrote decss, is being prosecuted again in
Norway, with a verdict expected December 22nd.  Perhaps the more
relevant question is: what's the state of MPAA FUD w.r.t. software
DVD players?

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[a]

// What's the state of the law with respect to software DVD players?

software DVD players are unquestionably fine, as long as they don't
decode the (stupidly trivial) CSS encoding. that only gets you some
small percentage of commercial DVDs, but it's a start. i'd say do
that and have the source able to include the standrd decss.c via
compile-time option. it's easy enough to find.
ア

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[mirtchov]

> What's the state of the law with respect to software DVD players?
> Johansen, the kid who wrote decss, is being prosecuted again in
> Norway, with a verdict expected December 22nd.  Perhaps the more
> relevant question is: what's the state of MPAA FUD w.r.t. software
> DVD players?

mplayer is going to be much more difficult to plan9-ise than links :)
and it doesn't even have a gui (unless you really want one)...  we
know it could be done now, but we need to be much more careful because
mplayer is a very fast moving target we don't want to split from :)

audio support! i've never had audio on Plan 9, few people do...

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[David Presotto]

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vis a vis audio...

Plug in usb devices are cheap enough that I don't mind not using the
fancy audio chips on my t23.  mpg123 gives me mp3.  I'm halfway through
a generic wav player to get us a bunch more formats.

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From: mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:09:58 -0700
Message-ID: <1ff7bc37f7308aa3c5b63688751bfb4f@plan9.ucalgary.ca>

> What's the state of the law with respect to software DVD players?
> Johansen, the kid who wrote decss, is being prosecuted again in
> Norway, with a verdict expected December 22nd.  Perhaps the more
> relevant question is: what's the state of MPAA FUD w.r.t. software
> DVD players?

mplayer is going to be much more difficult to plan9-ise than links :)
and it doesn't even have a gui (unless you really want one)...  we
know it could be done now, but we need to be much more careful because
mplayer is a very fast moving target we don't want to split from :)

audio support! i've never had audio on Plan 9, few people do...

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[rog]

speaking of audio, has anyone ported any mp3 ripping s/w to plan9.
i've got a zillion cds that would be great to be able to play under
plan 9 (and one of those usb audio devices).

i guess the question is how much venti space do i want to sacrifice...

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[Russ Cox]

> speaking of audio, has anyone ported any mp3 ripping s/w to plan9.
> i've got a zillion cds that would be great to be able to play under
> plan 9 (and one of those usb audio devices).
>
> i guess the question is how much venti space do i want to sacrifice...

i did lame a while ago.  i don't know how good the encoding actually is.

http://pdos.lcs.mit.edu/~rsc/lame.tar.gz

i've been using itunes to do aac ripping and am very happy with it.
it's very fast and it is currently the winner for 128kB aac audio
public listening tests.  i trust dolby to do a good job a lot more
than i trust gnu software.  of course that requires a mac or windows,
but it's not bad.

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[okamoto]

> i did lame a while ago.  i don't know how good the encoding actually is.

I don't know the accuracy, however, I cann't hear difference
between the two, CD and converted mp3, if I hear POP music.
For classic music, I don't want to hear it from PCs. ☺

Kenji

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[a]

// ...has anyone ported any mp3 ripping s/w to plan9.

i have, for one. i got BladeEnc 0.94.1 to work quite easily a good long
while ago. i tried with LAME, but got bad results. after announcing that
to the list, i seem to recall someone else saying they'd done LAME with
good results. my notes can be had at:
	http://9srv.net/mpeg/index.html
but note that the binary there is for 3e; i've simply not had time to
spend on it in quite a while.

ア

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[boyd, rounin]

> ... i tried with LAME, but got bad results.

QED :)

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[a]

// > ... i tried with LAME, but got bad results.

// QED :)

heh. maybe i should specify "...got valid mp3 files with
nothing but static in them, regardless of input content.".

i make no comment about LAME itself.

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[Russ Cox]

> // > ... i tried with LAME, but got bad results.
>
> // QED :)
>
> heh. maybe i should specify "...got valid mp3 files with
> nothing but static in them, regardless of input content.".
>
> i make no comment about LAME itself.

ah.  you weren't using -x to swap bytes properly.

cat /bin/cdenc
#!/bin/rc

fn enc {
	if(! test -f $dir/$b.mp3){
		rm /tmp/a
		cp $1 /tmp/a
		lame -v -rx -S --preset cd /tmp/a $dir/$b.mp3
	}
}
fn raw {
	if(! test -f $dir/$b.raw)
		cp $1 $dir/$b.raw
}

rfork n

conv=enc

if(~ $1 -r){
	shift
	conv=raw
}

if(! ~ $#* 1 || ! test -d $1) {
	echo 'usage: cdenc base' >[1=2]
	exit usage
}

dir=$1
if(! test -f $dir/toc)
	cdplay -f /dev/sdD0 toc >$dir/toc
cat $dir/toc
cdfs -d /dev/sdD0 && @{
	for (i in /mnt/cd/[au]*)	{
		b=`{basename $i}
		# games/pacenc -s44100 -b190000 $i $dir/$b.pac
		$conv $i
	}
}

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[David Presotto]

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ripping is easy, its called 'cdfs' + 'cp'.

we're running an mp3 encoder that, brucee I think, made from
an old mp123 release.  I know that the lastest mp123 decoder
ports with almost no work.  I've sent them the diffs so that
even that work doesn't have to be done.

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From: rog@vitanuova.com
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:34:27 0000
Message-ID: <df573cf5f32864018866d0cd659bea74@vitanuova.com>

speaking of audio, has anyone ported any mp3 ripping s/w to plan9.
i've got a zillion cds that would be great to be able to play under
plan 9 (and one of those usb audio devices).

i guess the question is how much venti space do i want to sacrifice...

cd ripping (was Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy))

[Christopher Nielsen]

i ported libparanoia, which i was going to use with the native
scsi library to write a wrapper similar to cdparanoia. as usual,
paying work interfered, and i haven't finished it.

pretty much all the other ripping software doesn't create an
accurate image of the cd (including using cdfs and cp). also,
(yes, i am being pedantic) converting to mp3 (or any other
compression format) is called encoding. ripping is converting
from the cd format to wav.

for most users, none of what i have said matters, but for
someone (like me) that is archiving a collection of cds, these
issues matter. so solutions others have presented may be
sufficient for most. :)

On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 04:34:27PM +0000, rog@vitanuova.com wrote:
> speaking of audio, has anyone ported any mp3 ripping s/w to plan9.
> i've got a zillion cds that would be great to be able to play under
> plan 9 (and one of those usb audio devices).
>
> i guess the question is how much venti space do i want to sacrifice...

--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

Re: cd ripping (was Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy))

[David Presotto]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 71 bytes --]

Just curious, what do you looking for that cdfs + cp doesn't
give you?

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3258 bytes --]

From: Christopher Nielsen <cnielsen@pobox.com>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: cd ripping (was Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy))
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 17:20:02 -0800
Message-ID: <20031220012002.GI74278@cassie.foobarbaz.net>

i ported libparanoia, which i was going to use with the native
scsi library to write a wrapper similar to cdparanoia. as usual,
paying work interfered, and i haven't finished it.

pretty much all the other ripping software doesn't create an
accurate image of the cd (including using cdfs and cp). also,
(yes, i am being pedantic) converting to mp3 (or any other
compression format) is called encoding. ripping is converting
from the cd format to wav.

for most users, none of what i have said matters, but for
someone (like me) that is archiving a collection of cds, these
issues matter. so solutions others have presented may be
sufficient for most. :)

On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 04:34:27PM +0000, rog@vitanuova.com wrote:
> speaking of audio, has anyone ported any mp3 ripping s/w to plan9.
> i've got a zillion cds that would be great to be able to play under
> plan 9 (and one of those usb audio devices).
>
> i guess the question is how much venti space do i want to sacrifice...

--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

Re: cd ripping (was Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy))

[Christopher Nielsen]

a way to generate a single image and cuesheet for a whole cd
that, when used as the image for burning a cd, will produce an
exact copy (or as close as possible) of the original cd.

iirc (which i may not since it's been several months), cdfs
assumes the tracks of the cd have a two-second pre-track gap
that is not true of most live or mix cds. i know for certain
that it writes in track-at-once mode, which introduces the
two-second pre-track gap. the only way around that is to write
in dao (disc-at-once) mode.

i started modifying cdfs to handle this and also to write in
dao (disc-at-once) mode. i got pretty far before i realised i
needed to let the design percolate more before continuing. my
initial idea for handling cuesheets was to make it a directory
hierarchy; to create a cue sheet for a cd to burn, you would
just create directories and files that would correspond to the
cuesheet field names and place the desired values in a text file.
without actually implementing it, i don't know if it would prove
to be too clunky, though.

the idea is to produce a suite of cd mastering tools for music
production. i think it would be much more powerful and simpler
than what's available for windows and macos.

On Fri, Dec 19, 2003 at 08:43:32PM -0500, David Presotto wrote:
> Just curious, what do you looking for that cdfs + cp doesn't
> give you?

--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[Joel Salomon]

David Presotto said:
> vis a vis audio...
>
> Plug in usb devices are cheap enough that I don't mind not using the
> fancy audio chips on my t23.

Can't find them for <$70 - not that much, but still a bit steep on a
student budget
--Joel

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[jmk]

On Thu Dec 18 10:07:29 EST 2003, mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca wrote:
> > What's the state of the law with respect to software DVD players?
> > Johansen, the kid who wrote decss, is being prosecuted again in
> > Norway, with a verdict expected December 22nd.  Perhaps the more
> > relevant question is: what's the state of MPAA FUD w.r.t. software
> > DVD players?
>
> mplayer is going to be much more difficult to plan9-ise than links :)
> and it doesn't even have a gui (unless you really want one)...  we
> know it could be done now, but we need to be much more careful because
> mplayer is a very fast moving target we don't want to split from :)
>
> audio support! i've never had audio on Plan 9, few people do...
>

That's really sad, and shows how we've lost our way. The only reason
there was a Plan 9 is because someone wanted a way to store and play chess
endgames and old rock and roll.

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[boyd, rounin]

> That's really sad, and shows how we've lost our way. The only reason
> there was a Plan 9 is because someone wanted a way to store and play chess
> endgames and old rock and roll.

ken has left the building ... :(

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[Fco.J.Ballesteros]

>> audio support! i've never had audio on Plan 9, few people do...
>>
>
> That's really sad, and shows how we've lost our way. The only reason
> there was a Plan 9 is because someone wanted a way to store and play chess
> endgames and old rock and roll.

Wait wait wait. I use plan 9 to play stuff from our /n/music using usb devices; not to
talk that I used the ipaq as an mp3 player for a long time.

These days we have touch screen support in Plan 9, among other things,
to select alan parson's tracks to play :-)

That's why I'm surprised to hear there's no audio support in plan 9.

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[Geoff Collyer]

The word `support' is now as meaningless as `system', so I'm not sure
what constitutes `audio support' for you.  Plan 9 has long been able
to drive SoundBlaster 16s and clones and now can drive USB audio
devices.  Ken collected ~160GB of PAC-encoded music on choline, our
old file server.  PAC is Perceptual Audio Coding, also developed at
the labs.  pacenc and pac[1-4]dec are not distributed, nor is the
`audio' GUI command to control playing PAC-encoded music.  PAC
nominally compresses music 14:1 and the sound quality is quite good.
So those 160GB correspond to about 2.24TB, probably a little less.  A
PAC-encoded album might take 45-65MB, with songs taking about 3-9MB.
Ken ended up using an 8-processor x86 (Pentium Pro, I think) system to
rip CDs by handing a track to each processor to encode, which really
sped up the process.

So from my perspective, there's lots of audio support in Plan 9,
though it may appear less so to most people.

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[Dan Cross]

"Fco.J.Ballesteros" <nemo@plan9.escet.urjc.es> writes:
> These days we have touch screen support in Plan 9, among other things,
> to select alan parson's tracks to play :-)

Aurgh!

	- Dan C.

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[a]

// ...for what their customers often had in mind to do with it, it was usable.

huh. i was in the BU; we had customers? ;-)

seriously, i think you're right, but solely because of your follow on statement:
they weren't doing anything very interesting. more and more screen phones, with
no particularly interesting software. and the software it did have wasn't really
very good, for the most part; we had a (um, two!) crappy browser, a crappy mail
program, a decent message center...

it's fairly disapointing that the Jetsons-inspired "Concept Phones" tended to
make for better demos than the Shannon phones (aside from the fact that the
Shannon hardware was much more reasonable), and the demo apps shipped with the
prefab module made a better demo than any of them, even towards the end of the
BU (especially with the mpeg stuff).

mind you, PathStar was amazing, but even though it chronologically overlapped
with the BU, it had basically nothing to do with it.
ア

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[boyd, rounin]

> I wouldn't have included the words `all' and `better'.

i'd say 'better' or we could go back to 9th Ed:

    http://www.insultant.net/images/9Ed-vol1.jpg

;)

--
MGRS 56H LJ 78915 53260

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[Geoff Collyer]

Limbo is arguably superior to C for writing at least some
applications, but that doesn't make the system that the BU got
originally superior to Plan 9.  There was no sam and no ed; how would
you have edited when running Inferno standalone (the only fair
comparison with Plan 9)?  That's just one of many such examples.

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[boyd, rounin]

> There was no sam and no ed; how would
> you have edited when running Inferno standalone (the only fair
> comparison with Plan 9)?  That's just one of many such examples.

exactly

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[Brantley Coile]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 101 bytes --]

My copy of the manual is just as dirty.
I bet the spine is fadded as well.

And I'd vote for V9.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2469 bytes --]

From: "boyd, rounin" <boyd@insultant.net>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 12:24:36 +0100
Message-ID: <022801c3c559$8602af70$70079486@SOMA>

> I wouldn't have included the words `all' and `better'.

i'd say 'better' or we could go back to 9th Ed:

    http://www.insultant.net/images/9Ed-vol1.jpg

;)

--
MGRS 56H LJ 78915 53260

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[boyd, rounin]

> My copy of the manual is just as dirty.

i think it's just faded (but i'm not sure) 'cos i covered it in self
adhesive clear plastic.

Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)

[Brantley Coile]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 35 bytes --]

Ooou, I wish I had thought of that.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2407 bytes --]

From: "boyd, rounin" <boyd@insultant.net>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: inferno (was Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:57:48 +0100
Message-ID: <00b701c3c5b1$fa51e460$a4079486@SOMA>

> My copy of the manual is just as dirty.

i think it's just faded (but i'm not sure) 'cos i covered it in self
adhesive clear plastic.

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[Brantley Coile]

	There's also the constant friction caused by not using the solution of the
	day for embedded systems.  It used to be only Vxworks.  Now its slowly opening
	up to Linux because its the flavor of the week at IBM and Lucent looks at
	IBM as the model of a reincarnated big company.  The GPL scares management
	somewhat which acts as a damping force.

A problem with using Linux in embedded systems, and this would be true of any
large source-only system, is that while it give the developers ready made tools,
it also limits their solution to those tools.  I watched one company use Linux
pretty closely and it worked, but the solution is couched very high up.
My first Embedded Unix product was shipped in 1988.  It was based on V7 and
was only 70K or so of kernel and a couple of small programs.  The kernel was
adapted to the applicaion.  Worked really well.  I recently looked into
using Linux for an embedded system, but that didn't work out.  It's not
documented.  I found it frustrating.  Dropped it and went back to my
own small kernels and just wrote more code, which I did faster than
I could figure out how to get Linux to do what I wanted.

Observation: A sufficently large amount of source == no source at all.

(Hard to believe that the birthplace of Unix will be forced by management
to use Windows!)

Brantley

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[David Presotto]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 856 bytes --]

>
> (Hard to believe that the birthplace of Unix will be forced by management
> to use Windows!)

Research won't be forced to live on it.  However we already are forced to
use it to communicate with those who don't really care what the solution
is, which is most of the company.  Also, if we want to solve peoples'
problems within the company, we have to do it in their context even if
our initial experiments are on Plan 9.  To boldly go, we can use Plan 9.
If we want anyone in our corporate world to follow, we have (or
someone else has) to figure out how to use our solutions in the
other contexts.

For most people, a keyboard and a manual are both fearful things to be
avoided at all cost.  Windows does a pretty good job of making an interface
that can be more or less guessed at by trial pointing and clicking and
lots of prompting.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3033 bytes --]

From: Brantley Coile <bwc@borf.com>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 09:52:50 -0500
Message-ID: <05765b085429865f54c42d315b473a94@borf.com>

	There's also the constant friction caused by not using the solution of the
	day for embedded systems.  It used to be only Vxworks.  Now its slowly opening
	up to Linux because its the flavor of the week at IBM and Lucent looks at
	IBM as the model of a reincarnated big company.  The GPL scares management
	somewhat which acts as a damping force.

A problem with using Linux in embedded systems, and this would be true of any
large source-only system, is that while it give the developers ready made tools,
it also limits their solution to those tools.  I watched one company use Linux
pretty closely and it worked, but the solution is couched very high up.
My first Embedded Unix product was shipped in 1988.  It was based on V7 and
was only 70K or so of kernel and a couple of small programs.  The kernel was
adapted to the applicaion.  Worked really well.  I recently looked into
using Linux for an embedded system, but that didn't work out.  It's not
documented.  I found it frustrating.  Dropped it and went back to my
own small kernels and just wrote more code, which I did faster than
I could figure out how to get Linux to do what I wanted.

Observation: A sufficently large amount of source == no source at all.

(Hard to believe that the birthplace of Unix will be forced by management
to use Windows!)

Brantley

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[Skip Tavakkolian]

>> (Hard to believe that the birthplace of Unix will be forced by management
>> to use Windows!)
>
> Research won't be forced to live on it.  However we already are forced to
> use it to communicate with those who don't really care what the solution
> is, which is most of the company.  Also, if we want to solve peoples'
> problems within the company, we have to do it in their context even if
> our initial experiments are on Plan 9.

Isn't this an argument for stronger drawterm effort (or something
more ambitious)?

BTW, I'm assuming this is referring to Windows for desktop environments
and not for running servers. right?

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[David Presotto]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 544 bytes --]

No the flavor of the week is a move to Windows servers with
users getting thin clients that connect to them.  I'ld rather
write something that talks their thin client protocol (if only
I can figure out what it is).

In general though, if your premise is that I always want to use
windows and sometimes plan 9, it is an argument for a stronger
drawterm.  Mine is that I want to live on plan9 and sometimes
use windows.  I'ld rather the inverse of drawterm.  Vnc is
a step in the right direction, though the windows server for
it sucks.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2632 bytes --]

From: "Skip Tavakkolian" <fst@centurytel.net>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:57:56 -0800
Message-ID: <577fd0c726f326714323074c32cead74@centurytel.net>

>> (Hard to believe that the birthplace of Unix will be forced by management
>> to use Windows!)
>
> Research won't be forced to live on it.  However we already are forced to
> use it to communicate with those who don't really care what the solution
> is, which is most of the company.  Also, if we want to solve peoples'
> problems within the company, we have to do it in their context even if
> our initial experiments are on Plan 9.

Isn't this an argument for stronger drawterm effort (or something
more ambitious)?

BTW, I'm assuming this is referring to Windows for desktop environments
and not for running servers. right?

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[David Arnold]

-->"David" == David Presotto <presotto@closedmind.org> writes:

  David> No the flavor of the week is a move to Windows servers with
  David> users getting thin clients that connect to them.  I'ld rather
  David> write something that talks their thin client protocol (if
  David> only I can figure out what it is).

seems to be called RDP.

  David> Vnc is a step in the right direction, though the windows
  David> server for it sucks.

www.rdesktop.org




d

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[boyd, rounin]

> seems to be called RDP.

Reliable Datagram Protcol?  never implemented.

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[bs]

boyd, rounin wrote:
>>seems to be called RDP.
>
>
> Reliable Datagram Protcol?  never implemented.
>
Remote Desktop Protocol

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[boyd, rounin]

> Isn't this an argument for stronger drawterm effort (or something
> more ambitious)?

i thought that was the whole point; no disk, no fan.  put the servers
somewhere and [draw]term [9P] to 'em.

the [windows] drawterm 'postnote' popup is less than obvious, but
it means that your connection has died.  i have a _bad feeling_ that
the windoze TCP/IP stack sends FINs, to each connection, when
some trivial RJ-45 to [A]DSL cable 'fall on the floor' / removal is
seen.

Drawterm and Inferno? Was: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[Martin C.Atkins]

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:57:56 -0800 "Skip Tavakkolian" <fst@centurytel.net> wrote:
> Isn't this an argument for stronger drawterm effort (or something
> more ambitious)?

This is probably a silly thought, since I haven't researched it, but...

Given the recent changes to Inferno (fileserving, graphics, etc), would
it not be relatively easy (or at least, easier than it was) to rewrite
drawterm in limbo?

The advantages are obvious - a single drawterm binary would work
identically on all the platforms supported by Inferno!

Martin
--
Martin C. Atkins			martin@parvat.com
Parvat Infotech Private Limited		http://www.parvat.com{/,/martin}

Re: Drawterm and Inferno? Was: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[Charles Forsyth]

>>it not be relatively easy (or at least, easier than it was) to rewrite
>>drawterm in limbo?

i'd have thought it would be close to a shell script,
given some commands that roger has done to interact
with rio, that might (or might not) even be in the current distribution.

much of drawterm is similar to a large subset of emu
(and supporting libraries).

Re: Drawterm and Inferno? Was: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[Martin C.Atkins]

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:18:00 0000 Charles Forsyth <forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> i'd have thought it would be close to a shell script,

That would reduce the complexity somewhat - assuming it isn't a
*really* horrendous shell script :-)

> given some commands that roger has done to interact
> with rio, that might (or might not) even be in the current distribution.

Yes, I was remembering Roger's Charon-in-a-window work, and hoping
that it implied good things about the possibility of reversing the roles,
which is, I think, mostly what drawterm would involve.

> much of drawterm is similar to a large subset of emu
> (and supporting libraries).

I wish all my shower-time ideas turned out so good!

Martin
--
Martin C. Atkins			martin@parvat.com
Parvat Infotech Private Limited		http://www.parvat.com{/,/martin}

Re: Drawterm and Inferno? Was: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[boyd, rounin]

> Given the recent changes to Inferno (fileserving, graphics, etc), would
> it not be relatively easy (or at least, easier than it was) to rewrite
> drawterm in limbo?
>
> The advantages are obvious - a single drawterm binary would work
> identically on all the platforms supported by Inferno!

sounds like a plan and you could bugfix it without, say, a µ$loth SDK.

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[Charles Forsyth]

>>(Hard to believe that the birthplace of Unix will be forced by management
>>to use Windows!)

they slipped up once and Unix use got away from them
but i'm sure they are careful that will never ever happen again.

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[ron minnich]

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Charles Forsyth wrote:

> >>(Hard to believe that the birthplace of Unix will be forced by management
> >>to use Windows!)
>
> they slipped up once and Unix use got away from them
> but i'm sure they are careful that will never ever happen again.


well, in '91, someone who shall remain nameless told me just that: that
a lot of people at ATT felt that letting Unix out was a huge mistake, and
that was a mistake they would never repeat with Plan 9. Talk about a bad
call!

ron

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[David Presotto]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 498 bytes --]

That's an oversimplification of reality but close enough, I guess.
There was a lot of chagrine that we'ld never managed to make money off
of Unix while everyone else did; that was just sour grapes.  There was
a feeling that we should hold any other software (not Plan 9
specificly) a lot closer and try to exploit them before they started
making money for everyone else in the hopes it would give us a leg up
in the pocketing of filthy lucre.  Absent open-source, they might have
been right.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2946 bytes --]

From: ron minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 10:56:01 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0312171055090.1623-100000@maxroach.lanl.gov>

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Charles Forsyth wrote:

> >>(Hard to believe that the birthplace of Unix will be forced by management
> >>to use Windows!)
>
> they slipped up once and Unix use got away from them
> but i'm sure they are careful that will never ever happen again.


well, in '91, someone who shall remain nameless told me just that: that
a lot of people at ATT felt that letting Unix out was a huge mistake, and
that was a mistake they would never repeat with Plan 9. Talk about a bad
call!

ron

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[Lucio De Re]

On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 09:29:33AM -0500, David Presotto wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
> It is the authentication server used by both Unix and Plan 9 systems
> so that people can use their netkeys (+ssh for example) to get into the
> company from the outside internet.
>
Am I to understand that it is possible to auth to Plan 9 from Unix?
Are such tools broadly available?  PAM, perhaps?

> A better multiuser version of VNC on windows would go a long way to
> making life bearable on that front.
>
Remote desktop <http://www.rdesktop.org> (I think) is one of the
tools I've been looking at (I mentioned it as a client of ASN.1
earlier today) and whereas my priority is SPAM (hence S/MIME - are
you aware that rsa2x509(1) claims to add a DN, but doesn't,
incidentally?  I'll work on the docs once I have something to show)
I wouldn't mind returning to rdesktop if BL have a real need for
it.  On my side, I want to see Plan 9 serve the protocol, so thin
clients can be used unmodified, but I'm nearly ready to tackle the
client.

In case remote desktop means nothing to you (Ron Minnich wasn't
familiar with the concept) it's also known as Terminal Server Client
and originally was Cytrix.

In fact, if time is of the essence to prove a point, I managed to
compile rdesktop 1.10 (I seem to recall) but the graphics module
(that package seems quite elegantly contructed) was way above my
skills level. Still, it was only one file, and not a very large
one at that.

> There's also the constant friction caused by not using the solution of the
> day for embedded systems.  It used to be only Vxworks.  Now its slowly opening
> up to Linux because its the flavor of the week at IBM and Lucent looks at
> IBM as the model of a reincarnated big company.  The GPL scares management
> somewhat which acts as a damping force.

The BSD licence ought to appeal to management more, despite a recent
clash with UCB.  Go figure.  I actually assumed Lucent would be
reluctant to follow in IBM's footsteps.

What would be the official fate of Plan 9 if Bell Labs migrated to
a new platform?

++L

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[Lucio De Re]

On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 06:54:42PM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote:
>
> On Wed, Dec 17, 2003 at 09:29:33AM -0500, David Presotto wrote:
> >
> > [ ... ]
> >
> > It is the authentication server used by both Unix and Plan 9 systems
> > so that people can use their netkeys (+ssh for example) to get into the
> > company from the outside internet.
> >
Oops, meant as private mail, excuse the liberties...

++L

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[a]

// In fact, they're on the campaign trail again to move the whole
// company onto an environment that's cheaper for them to support.

and what does that have to do with windows? unless they're moving
people *off* of it? windows generally looses the TCO war, unless
you're willing to undersupport your users and have things in a
perpetually broken state. in which case it can win, because
moderatly-bad windows admins are cheaper than moderatly-bad unix
admins.
ア

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[Sam]

> and what does that have to do with windows? unless they're moving
> people *off* of it? windows generally looses the TCO war, unless
> you're willing to undersupport your users and have things in a
> perpetually broken state. in which case it can win, because
> moderatly-bad windows admins are cheaper than moderatly-bad unix
> admins.

I have a friend who has been doing server/user support for
windows/linux/novell for about five years.  His latest job
is for a school system that is windows only.  This past
weekend he claimed that he's "going to the darkside."  After
a few moments of awkward silence he explained that XP is
heads and tails above all other MS operating systems in terms
of support.  Secured properly with third party lockdown
software, it apparently just "works."

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[George Michaelson]

> I have a friend who has been doing server/user support for
> windows/linux/novell for about five years.  His latest job
> is for a school system that is windows only.  This past
> weekend he claimed that he's "going to the darkside."  After
> a few moments of awkward silence he explained that XP is
> heads and tails above all other MS operating systems in terms
> of support.  Secured properly with third party lockdown
> software, it apparently just "works."

Our finance package, written to work on Windows 2000, died on XP and on XP with
patches required for security.

yes. XP is much better. XP has some rational behaviours. XP will be firewall on
with SP2. ignore the bouncy gui, the lipgloss, looking at the core engineering
its better, its complex, its huge, but within those compellingly non-better
constraints it is better :-)

but just works is over-stating it. there is much which doesn't just work. IPSEC
to unix for instance. wireless roaming can be fraught. Everybody is badly
affected by Centrino, more Intel wierd shit lockin.

Office is getting way way way way way too complex.

I think M$ trying to End-of-life Win98 is going to be very amusing. I doubt if
this will boost sales in China. pirate XP will persist for much time.

-George

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[boyd, rounin]

> Secured properly with third party lockdown
> software, it apparently just "works."

yeah, but it only takes a gazillion hz/bytes cpu/ram to do it.

i'd like to see a vax 750 [comet] port of XP ;)

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[Dan Cross]

a@9srv.net writes:
> // In fact, they're on the campaign trail again to move the whole
> // company onto an environment that's cheaper for them to support.
>
> and what does that have to do with windows? unless they're moving
> people *off* of it? windows generally looses the TCO war, unless
> you're willing to undersupport your users and have things in a
> perpetually broken state. in which case it can win, because
> moderatly-bad windows admins are cheaper than moderatly-bad unix
> admins.

Windows is the sticky tar that killed the dinosaurs.  Once you stick a
finger in, you're not going to get out.  And the finger that everyone
got stuck with was Microsoft Word.  I can't count the number of times
someone tells me, `I'll send you a text file!' and I get a Word
document.  It's stupid, but it's reality.

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[okamoto]

> I can't count the number of times
> someone tells me, `I'll send you a text file!' and I get a Word
> document.  It's stupid, but it's reality.

Indeed, also excel 'documents', too.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[boyd, rounin]

> Windows is the sticky tar that killed the dinosaurs.  Once you stick a
> finger in, you're not going to get out.

yup, straight out of _the mythical man month_.

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[boyd, rounin]

> people *off* of it? windows generally looses the TCO war, ...

tso(6)?

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[John Stalker]

> I think however that its main design goal---easy distribution of services
> and resources and the shared environment it presents to the users---has
> been 'superseded? replaced? ignored?(pick your favorite)' in the real
> world by the web, and that is another discipline.

I disagree somewhat.  Per machine namespaces are really a great nuisance.
I have three and a half machines at home and one at work and I already
feel the strain of keeping everything in sync.  Web interfaces are not
much good for this, and the standard solutions--NSF, rsync, etc.--feel
like the hacks that they are.  I can only imagine what administering
a large network is like.

The problem is, I think, a bit more subtle.  The per process namespace
idea and largely transparent networking are still as good an idea now
as they were originally.  Plan9 doesn't work as seemlessly as I would
like, however, in a network whose topology is continually changing.
My laptop, for example, may be part of my LAN, the internet, my
employer's LAN, or operating stand-alone.  Other OSes are no better
at this, but it seems that this is the sort of thing to which plan9
should be well suited.  Plan B has some interesting ideas in this
area.

Plan9 also has some problems at small scales.  It really wants a
dedicated file server, though not quite as badly as in the old days.

--
John Stalker
Department of Mathematics
Princeton University
(609)258-6469

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[John Stalker]

> I think that the main reason plan9 is behind in development is that most
> members of its community are more interested in the core OS(kernel, venti,
> fossil) than in applications. The problem is that is very diffucult to
> build from scratch applications like apache, MySQL, GIMP, OpenGL etc using
> the native plan9 environment(not ape ports) and then compare the results
> with the UNIX world but that would be the ultimate crash test.

Not to mention that last time I checked we have only one game, snake.
Even my old Vic20 had a choice of 8.
--
John Stalker
Department of Mathematics
Princeton University
(609)258-6469

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[mirtchov]

> Not to mention that last time I checked we have only one game, snake.
> Even my old Vic20 had a choice of 8.

MesaGL is the next port in the pipeline.  I really hope we'll be able
to run the basic demos in software rendering.  May have to wait a bit
for faster processors though...

:)

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[Micah Stetson]

> Not to mention that last time I checked we have only one game, snake.
> Even my old Vic20 had a choice of 8.

Somebody had a pipe dream like game.  I've compiled rogue
under ape and run it in vt (I know, cursor addressing
Berkeley software polluting Plan 9, but it is an
entertaining little game).  I've also got most of a Tetris
clone -- it works fine, it's just missing features.  That
would make four, if I ever posted the source.  And I
imagine others here have a toy or two hidden on their
disks.  I've thought off and on of porting an Atari 2600
or NES emulator, and that would certainly open up the
possibilities.  (Assuming, of course, that you have legal
access to some ROM images.)

Micah

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[mirtchov]

> disks.  I've thought off and on of porting an Atari 2600
> or NES emulator, and that would certainly open up the
> possibilities.  (Assuming, of course, that you have legal
> access to some ROM images.)

too much assembly code in those things... though the idea is good :)

Re: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[Dennis D. Jensen]

Spreading a little FUD are we?

OK. I couldn't help it...

--- Anastasopoulos S <anastas@ceid.upatras.gr> wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, andrey mirtchovski wrote:
>
> > this one comes from a heated slashdot discussion
> someone had with somebody
> > else:
> >
> > 	"Plan9 is just another Hurd -- a theoretically
> great OS that
> > 	only gets used by a few people. The most it can
> hope for is that
> > 	its best principles are adopted by a real OS."
> >
> > just letting you know where you are: andrey
> >
> > ps: i'll gladly accept suggestions as to what this
> OS may be (inferno is
> > honorably excluded) and promise to summarize it in
> the Wiki :)
> >
> >
>
> Obviously it is not yet ready for prime time. It
> lacks a web brownser, a
> better web server, quicktime, C++( I really like it
> ), GUI, a DBMS etc...
> The core OS is however designed very well and all
> these can be integrated
> very smoothly.

What was the quote? "Fashion is such a abomination
that it must change every 6 months." -- cannot
remember the name of the author.

> Nowadays the tendency is to provide web based
> distributed services and use
> the brownser as the terminal. I can't say if that is
> good or bad but this
> is how business are done today. In a plan9 world we
> would have a data base
> server that would serve something like SQL/, we
> would import it in our
> name space and then use our toolchain to manipulate
> it(cat, echo, awk or
> custom ones). In the other world this is done with
> mozilla, PHP, MySQL.

I wouldn't be to sure. Consider Apple's IPod.

James Robertson of Cincom (smalltalk) has an
interesting blog on the subject:

"Years ago, the Smalltalk development team used a tool
called Scopus (long since chewed up by Siebel) for bug
tracking. Engineering was never happy with that, and
built a homebrew system called MARS (Minimal Action
Request System). It was first deployed back around
1995, right after VisualWave was developed - as a web
application. This was nifty - it was easily accessible
to any of the development staff that needed to get to
the bug system, and ran in any browser. The only
problem was speed - things like Query By Example were
none too speedy when the steps included:

Send the query
Server processes the query
Client browser has to render the query results

For a long time, we just put up with this. Then a few
months ago, I hacked together a simple UI client that
hit the back end (query by AR number only) via a
servlet. Interestingly, getting results displayed
outside a browser was much, much simpler. I integrated
the simple client tool as an internal plugin for
BottomFeeder. A couple of our engineers ran with this
idea, and started working on a more capable client
using Opentalk - our Smalltalk-Smalltalk distribution
framework. Now, using an ssh tunnel or VPN connection,
any of the internal users can query and update the
system much more easily.

This is interesting because it represents a move away
from a browser based interface and over to a smart
client - back to the future, as it were. Using this
approach, using the bug tool is far less painful,
because the roundtrip communication with the server is
so much faster. MS is moving this way in LongHorn; I
wonder how many other people are doing similar
things?"

Web clients only you say? Not necessarily.

> An a final note, i completely disagree that is can
> survive if the other
> OSes adopt its best features. Because we have one
> architecture(x86) that
> means we must have one OS(linux i suppose). Plan9 is
> another design(better
> or not you decide) and i would like to see more new
> OSes or ideas rather
> than see linux take the world.

Have you looked at the number of small
gnu/linux-distributions lately? You can find a mini
gnu/linux dist just for the purpose of multimedia :)
And what about OpenBeOS and it's cousins? Hurd is
progressing although it's only a plan9-clone on the
surface, if there's any similarity at all. Recently
Squeak SmallTalk was put on compact flash card on top
of a modified linux-kernel, and some lispers (SBCL --
Steel Bank Common Lisp) are trying something similar.
A smaller or more specialized environment, while
general enough for common use, seems to be the goal.

One architecture == one OS? It sounds like nonsens to
me. On my stationary mascine there is four OS'es and I
know people who regularly use five different OS'es.

These days more ordinary people come to me for LiveCDs
filled with a small or "polished" gnu/linux and even
some of my technical friends have shifted to Mac OS/X
in hope of a more consistent environment.

I think plan9 still has a place.

Put another way: It doesn't look anymore dead to me
than five years ago. Claims of death usually comes
from people using different systems. It depends on the
community, and plan9 will attract it's share, side by
side with the many gnu/linux distros.

--
Dennis Decker Jensen


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Re: Drawterm and Inferno? Was: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[Skip Tavakkolian]

>>>it not be relatively easy (or at least, easier than it was) to rewrite
>>>drawterm in limbo?
>
> i'd have thought it would be close to a shell script,
> given some commands that roger has done to interact
> with rio, that might (or might not) even be in the current distribution.
>
> much of drawterm is similar to a large subset of emu
> (and supporting libraries).

What about a VM for the simplest machine possible that can run Plan9?
Add a C compiler for the architecture and then everyhting just runs.

Re: Drawterm and Inferno? Was: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[paurea]

Skip Tavakkolian writes:
 > What about a VM for the simplest machine possible that can run Plan9?
 > Add a C compiler for the architecture and then everyhting just runs.

Vmware does that job for the moment :-).
--
                 Saludos,
                         Gorka

"Curiosity sKilled the cat"

Re: Drawterm and Inferno? Was: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[Skip Tavakkolian]

>> What about a VM for the simplest machine possible that can run Plan9?
>  > Add a C compiler for the architecture and then everyhting just runs.
>
> Vmware does that job for the moment :-).

It doesn't need everything in VMware. Something simpler.

Re: Drawterm and Inferno? Was: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[boyd, rounin]

> It doesn't need everything in VMware. Something simpler.

    Boris the Blade:  Heavy is good, heavy is reliable.  If it does not work
    you can always hit him with it.

,x/[Hh]eavy/c/simple/
,x/hit him with/c/debug/

Re: Drawterm and Inferno? Was: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[Skip Tavakkolian]

What if the VM presented some things at a higher level, not devices
but filesystems.  Leaving authentication aside, on the kernel side,
they would look like foreign filesystem imported at boot.  With well
defined interfaces one could add new filesystems to the VM by
adding a dll; not much different than what is done in drawterm
anyway.

Re: Drawterm and Inferno? Was: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[Charles Forsyth]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 397 bytes --]

might as well use/do an emulator for an existing architecture that's
reasonably straightforward, such as MIPS (perhaps with simpler
`kernel mode' interfaces).   unfortunately, you'd still need to do
virtual devices and those would need to turn round and invoke
the underlying systems's primitives, to access graphics and files for instance,
so it's not clear that it simplifies things much.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2629 bytes --]

From: "Skip Tavakkolian" <fst@centurytel.net>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: Drawterm and Inferno? Was: [9fans] fortune-worthy
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:16:58 -0800
Message-ID: <56a2faa27b020228835e32308bc0acb2@centurytel.net>

>>>it not be relatively easy (or at least, easier than it was) to rewrite
>>>drawterm in limbo?
>
> i'd have thought it would be close to a shell script,
> given some commands that roger has done to interact
> with rio, that might (or might not) even be in the current distribution.
>
> much of drawterm is similar to a large subset of emu
> (and supporting libraries).

What about a VM for the simplest machine possible that can run Plan9?
Add a C compiler for the architecture and then everyhting just runs.

Re: Drawterm and Inferno? Was: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[Russ Cox]

> What about a VM for the simplest machine possible that can run Plan9?
> Add a C compiler for the architecture and then everyhting just runs.

crawls, perhaps.

Re: Drawterm and Inferno? Was: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[Skip Tavakkolian]

> crawls, perhaps.

ha! ☺

Yes, but then the requirement to run on faster and faster machines
puts in good standing with Intel.

Re: Drawterm and Inferno? Was: [9fans] fortune-worthy

[phillip stanley-marbell]

I recently (yesterday) got most of the inferno/utils to compile
for a device (a second VM for inferno, models Hitachi SH3)
that i did a few years ago. The obvious neat thing is that these
C programs can do things like draw on the screen via /dev/draw.

This means I now have [01258k][acl] which run over inferno.
I currently build the device into the Windows, MacOS and Linux
emu binaries. Integration into a native kernel is next (I had some
issues when i originally tried a few years ago, and lost interest).
It will be nice to have a native inferno that can build itself.

There are still a few rough edges i need to clear up, and I'm obviously
doing this for reasons best understood by myself. The speed is not
that great (currently about 10 MIPS on a P4 1GHz), but there are
ways to get almost an order of magnitude speed improvement.

I have a few other unix programs already running on it:
	bzip2, gzip, mpeg2enc, gcc (actually, just cc1).

The source for the device has been on my web page for a while,
I just recently upgraded it to fit into inferno4e.

cheers,
pip


On Dec 20, 2003, at 7:40 AM, Charles Forsyth wrote:
> might as well use/do an emulator for an existing architecture that's
> reasonably straightforward, such as MIPS (perhaps with simpler
> `kernel mode' interfaces).   unfortunately, you'd still need to do
> virtual devices and those would need to turn round and invoke
> the underlying systems's primitives, to access graphics and files for
> instance,
> so it's not clear that it simplifies things much.
>
> From: "Skip Tavakkolian" <fst@centurytel.net>
> Date: December 20, 2003 1:16:58 AM EST
> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
> Subject: Re: Drawterm and Inferno? Was: [9fans] fortune-worthy
> Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
>
>
>>>> it not be relatively easy (or at least, easier than it was) to
>>>> rewrite
>>>> drawterm in limbo?
>>
>> i'd have thought it would be close to a shell script,
>> given some commands that roger has done to interact
>> with rio, that might (or might not) even be in the current
>> distribution.
>>
>> much of drawterm is similar to a large subset of emu
>> (and supporting libraries).
>
> What about a VM for the simplest machine possible that can run Plan9?
> Add a C compiler for the architecture and then everyhting just runs.
>