[9fans] TeX: hurrah!

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* [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
@ 2010-04-16 11:57 tlaronde
  2010-04-16 12:43 ` Jacob Todd
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: tlaronde @ 2010-04-16 11:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

So it compiles without ado under Plan9! And it's pure C89 (POSIX is just
for the framework, not for the code: I have removed unneeded
dependencies). And it's all the latest versions of the programs.

So some numbers:
	- You will need to download a bundle of 4 chunks (I will put all on
	my website; I think the licence for TeX/METAFONT allows thie):

		1) Donald E. Knuth's sources: all the programs; the sources for
		the Computer Modern Typefaces and the man pages (roff) I have
		found here and there or reconstructed.
			=> < 6 Mb (compressed)

		2) kertex_M: these are the tools for the _matrix_ (the vulcan;
		the node compiling; the cpu) translating from Pascal to C.
			=> < 54 kb (compressed)

		3) kertex_T: the R.I.S.K. (see below) framework for building
		TeX/METAFONT, that is the change files, the template Makefiles,
		the PASCAL-H extensions implemented as a C library. Plus some
		public domain software: dvips [it is not compiled for now; it's
		the next in the list] and some auxiliary tools (afm2tfm etc.);
		MetaPost (not included for now: next after dvips).
			=> < 0.4 Mb

		4) The R.I.S.K. comp framework (my stuff) that is just a basic
		POSIX compliant way of configuring, compiling and installing
		software. Everything is configured via basic parameters file
		(you should not have to change something here; but it's all
		sh(1), ed(1), sed(1) and make(1)).
			=> < 125kb (compressed; the bigger par in size is D.E. Knuth
				and Silvio Levy's CWEB [not used here] that I use
				intensively).

So the sources, it is less than 12 Mb uncompressed.

And the sources can be (shall be) read-only so you can put them where
you want.

Space requirements for compilation : you will need about 33 Mb of free
space or, at least, 12 Mb of free space if you use the SAVE_SPACE=YES
option of R.I.S.K. (in this case, the intermediary products are removed
whence the target is built; and when building the package, the binaries
are not copied in the tarball, but moved in the tarball).

Time: on my old AMD Athlon (686-class), 1250.16 MHz, this takes less
than 2 minutes and a half...

The resulting package is 8 Mb. But the installation will need a little
more, since :
	1) The METAFONT plain format is compiled leading to the program that
	has the right to be called mf(1) since it passes the TRAP test.

	2) All the Computer Modern fontes are compiled, using mf(1).

	3) The TeX plain format is compiled leading to the program that has
	the right to be called tex(1) since it passes the TRIP test.

Since the work is done for allowing cross-compilation, the binaries are
not used on the matrix, but on the target, i.e. at installation time.

For the use of the stuff, I will need to put the essential in the
document describing the process in the following days.

For Plan9, one question: about the group (since for the user it will be
ignored). Which group ?

I have decided that the stuff will be installed in:

	- /lib/kertex for machine independant stuff (the macros, but the
	compiled fontes too). Plan9 users can "bind -a" to ``redirect'' what
	will be written where they want.

	- /$objtype/bin for the binaries. (idem)

	- /$objtype/lib/kertex/tex/dump/, and /$objtype/lib/kertex/mf/dump/
	for the dump of the tables (the compiled version of the macros, that
	is loaded say when you call virtex(1) mistex(1), this is virtex(1)
	but it looks to is dump mistex.fmt to load it. The dumps are not
	machine independant, even not program independant since they depend
	on options selected at compile time). (idem)


To give you a view of what is installed (and possibly where), here is
the (generic: for Unices too) map [I need to change root:wheel to
variable things) :

#========== THE MAIN DIR TREE
# Everything is relative (for the not man nor bin stuff) to PKGDIR that
# one can set as he sees fit.
#
+ d * $PKGDIR/mf root:wheel 755
# This is where we put Computer Modern _sources_ (parameters and drivers
# METAFONT's files).
#
+ d * $PKGDIR/mf/cm root:wheel 755
+ d * $PKGDIR/mf/mac root:wheel 755
# If you want to ``localize'' messages, look at D.E.K.'s pool stuff.
#
+ d * $PKGDIR/mf/pool root:wheel 755
+ d * $PKGDIR/mf/trap root:wheel 755
# Since to create a METAFONT' base file, one dumps, we call it: dump.
# But is is machine dependant.
#
+ d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib root:wheel 755
+ d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/mf root:wheel 755
+ d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/mf/dump root:wheel 755

+ d * $PKGDIR/tex root:wheel 755
+ d * $PKGDIR/tex/mac root:wheel 755
# If you want to ``localize'' messages, look at D.E.K.'s pool stuff.
#
+ d * $PKGDIR/tex/pool root:wheel 755
+ d * $PKGDIR/tex/trip root:wheel 755
# Since to create a TeX' format file, one dumps, we call it: dump.
# But it is machine dependant.
#
+ d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/tex root:wheel 755
+ d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/tex/dump root:wheel 755

# This directory is for resulting fontes, that is tfm and gf, vf and
# pk. This is used, for tfm, by TeX; for pk and t1 by dvips(1).
#
+ d * $PKGDIR/fonts root:wheel 755
+ d * $PKGDIR/fonts/gf root:wheel 755
+ d * $PKGDIR/fonts/vf root:wheel 755
+ d * $PKGDIR/fonts/tfm root:wheel 755
+ d * $PKGDIR/fonts/pk root:wheel 755
+ d * $PKGDIR/fonts/ps root:wheel 755

# The not roff man pages---the doc--- will be put in DOCDIR, under a
# dedicated subdirectory.
#
+ d * $TARGETDOCDIR/kertex root:wheel 755

#========== WEB
+ f $OBJDIR/web/bin1/tangle/tangle $TARGETBINDIR/tangle root:wheel 755
= f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/tangle.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/tangle.1 root:wheel 444
+ f $OBJDIR/web/bin1/weave/weave $TARGETBINDIR/weave root:wheel 755
= f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/weave.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/weave.1 root:wheel 444
= f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/web.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/pooltype.1 root:wheel 444

#========== WEB auxiliaries
+ f $OBJDIR/webware/bin1/pooltype/pooltype $TARGETBINDIR/pooltype root:wheel 755
= f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/pooltype.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/pooltype.1 root:wheel 444

#========== Donald E. Knuth's METAFONT.
#
+ f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/inimf/inimf $TARGETBINDIR/inimf root:wheel 755
= f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/inimf/mf.pool $PKGDIR/mf/pool/mf.pool root:wheel 444
+ f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/virmf/virmf $TARGETBINDIR/virmf root:wheel 755
= f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/mf.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/mf.1 root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/plain.mf $PKGDIR/mf/mac/plain.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/null.mf $PKGDIR/mf/mac/null.mf root:wheel 444
# TRAP stuff.
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trapman.tex $TARGETDOCDIR/kertex/trapman.tex root:wheel 444
# The special INIMF is not installed as an normal executable.
#
+ f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/trapmf/trapmf $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trapmf root:wheel 444
+ f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/trapmf/mf.pool $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.pool root:wheel 444
+ f $OBJDIR/mf/sh1/trapmf/trapmf.sh $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trapmf.sh root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.mf $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.fot $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.fot root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.log $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.log root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trapin.log $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trapin.log root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.pl $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.pl root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.typ $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.typ root:wheel 444
# for GFtoDVI.
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/slant.mf $PKGDIR/mac/slant.mf root:wheel 444
= f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftodvi.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftodvi.1 root:wheel 444

#========== METAFONT' auxiliaries
#
+ f $OBJDIR/mfware/bin1/gftype/gftype $TARGETBINDIR/gftype root:wheel 755
= f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftype.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftype.1 root:wheel 444
+ f $OBJDIR/mfware/bin1/gftodvi/gftodvi $TARGETBINDIR/gftodvi root:wheel 755
= f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftodvi.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftodvi.1 root:wheel 444
+ f $OBJDIR/mfware/bin1/mft/mft $TARGETBINDIR/mft root:wheel 755
= f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/mft.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/mft.1 root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/plain.mft $PKGDIR/tex/mac/plain.mft root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/cmbase.mft $PKGDIR/tex/mac/cmbase.mft root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/mftmac.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/mftmac.tex root:wheel 444

#========== Donald E. Knuth's Computer Modern Typefaces.
#
# The drivers.
#
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/accent.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/accent.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/bigacc.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/bigacc.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/bigdel.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/bigdel.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/bigop.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/bigop.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/calu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/calu.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbase.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbase.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cminch.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cminch.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/comlig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/comlig.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/csc.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/csc.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cscspu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cscspu.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/greekl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/greekl.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/greeku.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/greeku.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/itald.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/itald.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italig.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/itall.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/itall.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italms.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italms.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italp.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italp.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italsp.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italsp.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/mathex.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/mathex.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/mathit.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/mathit.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/mathsy.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/mathsy.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/olddig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/olddig.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/punct.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/punct.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/roman.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/roman.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romand.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romand.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romanl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romanl.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romanp.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romanp.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romanu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romanu.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romlig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romlig.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romms.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romms.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romspl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romspl.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romspu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romspu.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romsub.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romsub.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/sym.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/sym.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/symbol.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/symbol.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/texset.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/texset.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/textit.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/textit.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/title.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/title.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/tset.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/tset.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/tsetsl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/tsetsl.mf root:wheel 444
#
# The parameters.
#
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmb10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmb10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbsy10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbsy10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx12.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx5.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx6.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx7.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx8.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx9.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbxsl10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbxsl10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbxti10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbxti10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmcsc10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmcsc10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmdunh10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmdunh10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmex10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmex10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmex9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmex9.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmff10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmff10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmfi10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmfi10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmfib8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmfib8.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmitt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmitt10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi12.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi5.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi6.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi7.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi8.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi9.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmib10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmib10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr12.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr17.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr17.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr5.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr6.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr7.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr8.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr9.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl12.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl8.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl9.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsltt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsltt10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss12.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss17.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss17.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss8.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss9.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssbx10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssbx10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssdc10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssdc10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi12.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi17.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi17.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi8.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi9.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssq8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssq8.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssqi8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssqi8.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy5.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy6.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy7.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy8.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy9.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtcsc10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtcsc10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtex10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtex10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtex8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtex8.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtex9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtex9.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti12.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti7.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti8.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti9.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt12.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt8.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt9.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmu10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmu10.mf root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmvtt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmvtt10.mf root:wheel 444

#========== Donald E. Knuth's TeX.
#
+ f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/initex/initex $TARGETBINDIR/initex root:wheel 755
= f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/initex/tex.pool $PKGDIR/tex/pool/tex.pool root:wheel 444
+ f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/virtex/virtex $TARGETBINDIR/virtex root:wheel 755
= f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/tex.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/tex.1 root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/plain.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/plain.tex root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/hyphen.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/hyphen.tex root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/null.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/null.tex root:wheel 444
# Plain TeX font
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/manfnt.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/manfnt.mf root:wheel 444
# TRIP stuff.
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/tripman.tex $TARGETDOCDIR/kertex/tripman.tex root:wheel 444
# The special INITEX is not installed as an normal executable.
#
+ f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/triptex/triptex $PKGDIR/tex/trip/triptex root:wheel 755
+ f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/triptex/tex.pool $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.pool root:wheel 755
+ f $OBJDIR/tex/sh1/triptex/triptex.sh $PKGDIR/tex/trip/triptex.sh root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.tex $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.tex root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/tripos.tex $PKGDIR/tex/trip/tripos.tex root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.fot $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.fot root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.log $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.log root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/tripin.log $PKGDIR/tex/trip/tripin.log root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.pl $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.pl root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.tfm $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.tfm root:wheel 444
+ f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.typ $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.typ root:wheel 444

#========== TeX' auxiliaries
#
+ f $OBJDIR/texware/bin1/tftopl/tftopl $TARGETBINDIR/tftopl root:wheel 755
= f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/tftopl.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/tftopl.1 root:wheel 444
+ f $OBJDIR/texware/bin1/pltotf/pltotf $TARGETBINDIR/pltotf root:wheel 755
= f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/pltotf.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/pltotf.1 root:wheel 444

#========== FONTWARE
+ f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/afm2tfm/afm2tfm $TARGETBINDIR/afm2tfm root:wheel 755
= f $PROJECTDIR/fontware/bin1/afm2tfm/MAN $TARGETMANDIR/man1/afm2tfm.1 root:wheel 444
+ f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/vftovp/vftovp $TARGETBINDIR/vftovp root:wheel 755
= f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/vftovp.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/vftovp.1 root:wheel 444
+ f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/vptovf/vptovf $TARGETBINDIR/vptovf root:wheel 755
= f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/vptovf.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/vptovf.1 root:wheel 444
+ f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/gftopk/gftopk $TARGETBINDIR/gftopk root:wheel 755
= f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftopk.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftopk.1 root:wheel 444

#========== DVIWARE
+ f $OBJDIR/dviware/bin1/dvitype/dvitype $TARGETBINDIR/dvitype root:wheel 755
= f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/dvitype.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/dvitype.1 root:wheel 444


I think the web pages and the documentation will be online on monday. I
will drop a message when done.
--
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 11:57 [9fans] TeX: hurrah! tlaronde
@ 2010-04-16 12:43 ` Jacob Todd
  2010-04-16 13:20 ` David Leimbach
  2010-04-16 13:32 ` Alexander Sychev
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Jacob Todd @ 2010-04-16 12:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 162 bytes --]

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 01:57:56PM +0200, tlaronde@polynum.com wrote:
> ...
Nice work. Can't wait to try it.

-- 
I am a man who does not exist for others.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 205 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 11:57 [9fans] TeX: hurrah! tlaronde
  2010-04-16 12:43 ` Jacob Todd
@ 2010-04-16 13:20 ` David Leimbach
  2010-04-16 13:32 ` Alexander Sychev
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: David Leimbach @ 2010-04-16 13:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 20934 bytes --]

Nice work!

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 4:57 AM, <tlaronde@polynum.com> wrote:

> So it compiles without ado under Plan9! And it's pure C89 (POSIX is just
> for the framework, not for the code: I have removed unneeded
> dependencies). And it's all the latest versions of the programs.
>
> So some numbers:
>        - You will need to download a bundle of 4 chunks (I will put all on
>        my website; I think the licence for TeX/METAFONT allows thie):
>
>                1) Donald E. Knuth's sources: all the programs; the sources
> for
>                the Computer Modern Typefaces and the man pages (roff) I
> have
>                found here and there or reconstructed.
>                        => < 6 Mb (compressed)
>
>                2) kertex_M: these are the tools for the _matrix_ (the
> vulcan;
>                the node compiling; the cpu) translating from Pascal to C.
>                        => < 54 kb (compressed)
>
>                3) kertex_T: the R.I.S.K. (see below) framework for building
>                TeX/METAFONT, that is the change files, the template
> Makefiles,
>                the PASCAL-H extensions implemented as a C library. Plus
> some
>                public domain software: dvips [it is not compiled for now;
> it's
>                the next in the list] and some auxiliary tools (afm2tfm
> etc.);
>                MetaPost (not included for now: next after dvips).
>                        => < 0.4 Mb
>
>                4) The R.I.S.K. comp framework (my stuff) that is just a
> basic
>                POSIX compliant way of configuring, compiling and installing
>                software. Everything is configured via basic parameters file
>                (you should not have to change something here; but it's all
>                sh(1), ed(1), sed(1) and make(1)).
>                        => < 125kb (compressed; the bigger par in size is
> D.E. Knuth
>                                and Silvio Levy's CWEB [not used here] that
> I use
>                                intensively).
>
> So the sources, it is less than 12 Mb uncompressed.
>
> And the sources can be (shall be) read-only so you can put them where
> you want.
>
> Space requirements for compilation : you will need about 33 Mb of free
> space or, at least, 12 Mb of free space if you use the SAVE_SPACE=YES
> option of R.I.S.K. (in this case, the intermediary products are removed
> whence the target is built; and when building the package, the binaries
> are not copied in the tarball, but moved in the tarball).
>
> Time: on my old AMD Athlon (686-class), 1250.16 MHz, this takes less
> than 2 minutes and a half...
>
> The resulting package is 8 Mb. But the installation will need a little
> more, since :
>        1) The METAFONT plain format is compiled leading to the program that
>        has the right to be called mf(1) since it passes the TRAP test.
>
>        2) All the Computer Modern fontes are compiled, using mf(1).
>
>        3) The TeX plain format is compiled leading to the program that has
>        the right to be called tex(1) since it passes the TRIP test.
>
> Since the work is done for allowing cross-compilation, the binaries are
> not used on the matrix, but on the target, i.e. at installation time.
>
> For the use of the stuff, I will need to put the essential in the
> document describing the process in the following days.
>
> For Plan9, one question: about the group (since for the user it will be
> ignored). Which group ?
>
> I have decided that the stuff will be installed in:
>
>        - /lib/kertex for machine independant stuff (the macros, but the
>        compiled fontes too). Plan9 users can "bind -a" to ``redirect'' what
>        will be written where they want.
>
>        - /$objtype/bin for the binaries. (idem)
>
>        - /$objtype/lib/kertex/tex/dump/, and /$objtype/lib/kertex/mf/dump/
>        for the dump of the tables (the compiled version of the macros, that
>        is loaded say when you call virtex(1) mistex(1), this is virtex(1)
>        but it looks to is dump mistex.fmt to load it. The dumps are not
>        machine independant, even not program independant since they depend
>        on options selected at compile time). (idem)
>
>
> To give you a view of what is installed (and possibly where), here is
> the (generic: for Unices too) map [I need to change root:wheel to
> variable things) :
>
> #========== THE MAIN DIR TREE
> # Everything is relative (for the not man nor bin stuff) to PKGDIR that
> # one can set as he sees fit.
> #
> + d * $PKGDIR/mf root:wheel 755
> # This is where we put Computer Modern _sources_ (parameters and drivers
> # METAFONT's files).
> #
> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/cm root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/mac root:wheel 755
> # If you want to ``localize'' messages, look at D.E.K.'s pool stuff.
> #
> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/pool root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/trap root:wheel 755
> # Since to create a METAFONT' base file, one dumps, we call it: dump.
> # But is is machine dependant.
> #
> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib root:wheel 755
> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/mf root:wheel 755
> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/mf/dump root:wheel 755
>
> + d * $PKGDIR/tex root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/tex/mac root:wheel 755
> # If you want to ``localize'' messages, look at D.E.K.'s pool stuff.
> #
> + d * $PKGDIR/tex/pool root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/tex/trip root:wheel 755
> # Since to create a TeX' format file, one dumps, we call it: dump.
> # But it is machine dependant.
> #
> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/tex root:wheel 755
> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/tex/dump root:wheel 755
>
> # This directory is for resulting fontes, that is tfm and gf, vf and
> # pk. This is used, for tfm, by TeX; for pk and t1 by dvips(1).
> #
> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/gf root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/vf root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/tfm root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/pk root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/ps root:wheel 755
>
> # The not roff man pages---the doc--- will be put in DOCDIR, under a
> # dedicated subdirectory.
> #
> + d * $TARGETDOCDIR/kertex root:wheel 755
>
> #========== WEB
> + f $OBJDIR/web/bin1/tangle/tangle $TARGETBINDIR/tangle root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/tangle.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/tangle.1 root:wheel 444
> + f $OBJDIR/web/bin1/weave/weave $TARGETBINDIR/weave root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/weave.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/weave.1 root:wheel 444
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/web.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/pooltype.1 root:wheel 444
>
> #========== WEB auxiliaries
> + f $OBJDIR/webware/bin1/pooltype/pooltype $TARGETBINDIR/pooltype
> root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/pooltype.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/pooltype.1 root:wheel
> 444
>
> #========== Donald E. Knuth's METAFONT.
> #
> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/inimf/inimf $TARGETBINDIR/inimf root:wheel 755
> = f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/inimf/mf.pool $PKGDIR/mf/pool/mf.pool root:wheel 444
> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/virmf/virmf $TARGETBINDIR/virmf root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/mf.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/mf.1 root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/plain.mf $PKGDIR/mf/mac/plain.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/null.mf $PKGDIR/mf/mac/null.mf root:wheel 444
> # TRAP stuff.
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trapman.tex $TARGETDOCDIR/kertex/trapman.tex
> root:wheel 444
> # The special INIMF is not installed as an normal executable.
> #
> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/trapmf/trapmf $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trapmf root:wheel 444
> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/trapmf/mf.pool $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.pool root:wheel 444
> + f $OBJDIR/mf/sh1/trapmf/trapmf.sh $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trapmf.sh root:wheel
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.mf $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.fot $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.fot root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.log $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.log root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trapin.log $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trapin.log root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.pl $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.pl root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.typ $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.typ root:wheel 444
> # for GFtoDVI.
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/slant.mf $PKGDIR/mac/slant.mf root:wheel 444
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftodvi.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftodvi.1 root:wheel
> 444
>
> #========== METAFONT' auxiliaries
> #
> + f $OBJDIR/mfware/bin1/gftype/gftype $TARGETBINDIR/gftype root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftype.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftype.1 root:wheel 444
> + f $OBJDIR/mfware/bin1/gftodvi/gftodvi $TARGETBINDIR/gftodvi root:wheel
> 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftodvi.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftodvi.1 root:wheel
> 444
> + f $OBJDIR/mfware/bin1/mft/mft $TARGETBINDIR/mft root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/mft.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/mft.1 root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/plain.mft $PKGDIR/tex/mac/plain.mft root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/cmbase.mft $PKGDIR/tex/mac/cmbase.mft root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/mftmac.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/mftmac.tex root:wheel 444
>
> #========== Donald E. Knuth's Computer Modern Typefaces.
> #
> # The drivers.
> #
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/accent.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/accent.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/bigacc.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/bigacc.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/bigdel.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/bigdel.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/bigop.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/bigop.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/calu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/calu.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbase.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbase.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cminch.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cminch.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/comlig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/comlig.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/csc.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/csc.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cscspu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cscspu.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/greekl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/greekl.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/greeku.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/greeku.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/itald.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/itald.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italig.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/itall.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/itall.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italms.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italms.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italp.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italp.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italsp.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italsp.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/mathex.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/mathex.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/mathit.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/mathit.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/mathsy.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/mathsy.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/olddig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/olddig.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/punct.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/punct.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/roman.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/roman.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romand.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romand.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romanl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romanl.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romanp.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romanp.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romanu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romanu.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romlig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romlig.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romms.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romms.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romspl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romspl.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romspu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romspu.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romsub.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romsub.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/sym.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/sym.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/symbol.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/symbol.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/texset.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/texset.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/textit.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/textit.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/title.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/title.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/tset.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/tset.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/tsetsl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/tsetsl.mf root:wheel 444
> #
> # The parameters.
> #
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmb10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmb10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbsy10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbsy10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx12.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx5.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx6.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx7.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbxsl10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbxsl10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbxti10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbxti10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmcsc10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmcsc10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmdunh10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmdunh10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmex10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmex10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmex9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmex9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmff10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmff10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmfi10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmfi10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmfib8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmfib8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmitt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmitt10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi12.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi5.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi6.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi7.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmib10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmib10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr12.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr17.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr17.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr5.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr6.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr7.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl12.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsltt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsltt10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss12.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss17.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss17.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssbx10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssbx10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssdc10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssdc10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi12.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi17.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi17.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssq8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssq8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssqi8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssqi8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy5.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy6.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy7.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtcsc10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtcsc10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtex10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtex10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtex8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtex8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtex9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtex9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti12.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti7.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt12.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmu10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmu10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmvtt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmvtt10.mf root:wheel 444
>
> #========== Donald E. Knuth's TeX.
> #
> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/initex/initex $TARGETBINDIR/initex root:wheel 755
> = f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/initex/tex.pool $PKGDIR/tex/pool/tex.pool root:wheel
> 444
> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/virtex/virtex $TARGETBINDIR/virtex root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/tex.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/tex.1 root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/plain.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/plain.tex root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/hyphen.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/hyphen.tex root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/null.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/null.tex root:wheel 444
> # Plain TeX font
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/manfnt.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/manfnt.mf root:wheel 444
> # TRIP stuff.
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/tripman.tex $TARGETDOCDIR/kertex/tripman.tex
> root:wheel 444
> # The special INITEX is not installed as an normal executable.
> #
> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/triptex/triptex $PKGDIR/tex/trip/triptex root:wheel
> 755
> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/triptex/tex.pool $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.pool root:wheel
> 755
> + f $OBJDIR/tex/sh1/triptex/triptex.sh $PKGDIR/tex/trip/triptex.sh
> root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.tex $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.tex root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/tripos.tex $PKGDIR/tex/trip/tripos.tex root:wheel
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.fot $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.fot root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.log $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.log root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/tripin.log $PKGDIR/tex/trip/tripin.log root:wheel
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.pl $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.pl root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.tfm $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.tfm root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.typ $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.typ root:wheel 444
>
> #========== TeX' auxiliaries
> #
> + f $OBJDIR/texware/bin1/tftopl/tftopl $TARGETBINDIR/tftopl root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/tftopl.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/tftopl.1 root:wheel 444
> + f $OBJDIR/texware/bin1/pltotf/pltotf $TARGETBINDIR/pltotf root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/pltotf.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/pltotf.1 root:wheel 444
>
> #========== FONTWARE
> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/afm2tfm/afm2tfm $TARGETBINDIR/afm2tfm root:wheel
> 755
> = f $PROJECTDIR/fontware/bin1/afm2tfm/MAN $TARGETMANDIR/man1/afm2tfm.1
> root:wheel 444
> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/vftovp/vftovp $TARGETBINDIR/vftovp root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/vftovp.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/vftovp.1 root:wheel 444
> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/vptovf/vptovf $TARGETBINDIR/vptovf root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/vptovf.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/vptovf.1 root:wheel 444
> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/gftopk/gftopk $TARGETBINDIR/gftopk root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftopk.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftopk.1 root:wheel 444
>
> #========== DVIWARE
> + f $OBJDIR/dviware/bin1/dvitype/dvitype $TARGETBINDIR/dvitype root:wheel
> 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/dvitype.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/dvitype.1 root:wheel
> 444
>
>
> I think the web pages and the documentation will be online on monday. I
> will drop a message when done.
> --
>        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
>                      http://www.kergis.com/
> Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
>
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 11:57 [9fans] TeX: hurrah! tlaronde
  2010-04-16 12:43 ` Jacob Todd
  2010-04-16 13:20 ` David Leimbach
@ 2010-04-16 13:32 ` Alexander Sychev
  2010-04-16 13:47   ` tlaronde
  2010-04-16 14:07   ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Alexander Sychev @ 2010-04-16 13:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

Hello!

Congratulations!

Have you any plans to adapt the TeX for UTF-8 input?

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 15:57:56 +0400, tlaronde@polynum.com  
<tlaronde@polynum.com> wrote:

> So it compiles without ado under Plan9! And it's pure C89 (POSIX is just
> for the framework, not for the code: I have removed unneeded
> dependencies). And it's all the latest versions of the programs.
>
> So some numbers:
>         - You will need to download a bundle of 4 chunks (I will put all  
> on
>         my website; I think the licence for TeX/METAFONT allows thie):
>
>                 1) Donald E. Knuth's sources: all the programs; the  
> sources for
>                 the Computer Modern Typefaces and the man pages (roff) I  
> have
>                 found here and there or reconstructed.
>                         => < 6 Mb (compressed)
>
>                 2) kertex_M: these are the tools for the _matrix_ (the  
> vulcan;
>                 the node compiling; the cpu) translating from Pascal to  
> C.
>                         => < 54 kb (compressed)
>
>                 3) kertex_T: the R.I.S.K. (see below) framework for  
> building
>                 TeX/METAFONT, that is the change files, the template  
> Makefiles,
>                 the PASCAL-H extensions implemented as a C library. Plus  
> some
>                 public domain software: dvips [it is not compiled for  
> now; it's
>                 the next in the list] and some auxiliary tools (afm2tfm  
> etc.);
>                 MetaPost (not included for now: next after dvips).
>                         => < 0.4 Mb
>
>                 4) The R.I.S.K. comp framework (my stuff) that is just a  
> basic
>                 POSIX compliant way of configuring, compiling and  
> installing
>                 software. Everything is configured via basic parameters  
> file
>                 (you should not have to change something here; but it's  
> all
>                 sh(1), ed(1), sed(1) and make(1)).
>                         => < 125kb (compressed; the bigger par in size  
> is D.E. Knuth
>                                 and Silvio Levy's CWEB [not used here]  
> that I use
>                                 intensively).
>
> So the sources, it is less than 12 Mb uncompressed.
>
> And the sources can be (shall be) read-only so you can put them where
> you want.
>
> Space requirements for compilation : you will need about 33 Mb of free
> space or, at least, 12 Mb of free space if you use the SAVE_SPACE=YES
> option of R.I.S.K. (in this case, the intermediary products are removed
> whence the target is built; and when building the package, the binaries
> are not copied in the tarball, but moved in the tarball).
>
> Time: on my old AMD Athlon (686-class), 1250.16 MHz, this takes less
> than 2 minutes and a half...
>
> The resulting package is 8 Mb. But the installation will need a little
> more, since :
>         1) The METAFONT plain format is compiled leading to the program  
> that
>         has the right to be called mf(1) since it passes the TRAP test.
>
>         2) All the Computer Modern fontes are compiled, using mf(1).
>
>         3) The TeX plain format is compiled leading to the program that  
> has
>         the right to be called tex(1) since it passes the TRIP test.
>
> Since the work is done for allowing cross-compilation, the binaries are
> not used on the matrix, but on the target, i.e. at installation time.
>
> For the use of the stuff, I will need to put the essential in the
> document describing the process in the following days.
>
> For Plan9, one question: about the group (since for the user it will be
> ignored). Which group ?
>
> I have decided that the stuff will be installed in:
>
>         - /lib/kertex for machine independant stuff (the macros, but the
>         compiled fontes too). Plan9 users can "bind -a" to ``redirect''  
> what
>         will be written where they want.
>
>         - /$objtype/bin for the binaries. (idem)
>
>         - /$objtype/lib/kertex/tex/dump/, and  
> /$objtype/lib/kertex/mf/dump/
>         for the dump of the tables (the compiled version of the macros,  
> that
>         is loaded say when you call virtex(1) mistex(1), this is  
> virtex(1)
>         but it looks to is dump mistex.fmt to load it. The dumps are not
>         machine independant, even not program independant since they  
> depend
>         on options selected at compile time). (idem)
>
>
> To give you a view of what is installed (and possibly where), here is
> the (generic: for Unices too) map [I need to change root:wheel to
> variable things) :
>
> #========== THE MAIN DIR TREE
> # Everything is relative (for the not man nor bin stuff) to PKGDIR that
> # one can set as he sees fit.
> #
> + d * $PKGDIR/mf root:wheel 755
> # This is where we put Computer Modern _sources_ (parameters and drivers
> # METAFONT's files).
> #
> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/cm root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/mac root:wheel 755
> # If you want to ``localize'' messages, look at D.E.K.'s pool stuff.
> #
> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/pool root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/trap root:wheel 755
> # Since to create a METAFONT' base file, one dumps, we call it: dump.
> # But is is machine dependant.
> #
> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib root:wheel 755
> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/mf root:wheel 755
> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/mf/dump root:wheel 755
>
> + d * $PKGDIR/tex root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/tex/mac root:wheel 755
> # If you want to ``localize'' messages, look at D.E.K.'s pool stuff.
> #
> + d * $PKGDIR/tex/pool root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/tex/trip root:wheel 755
> # Since to create a TeX' format file, one dumps, we call it: dump.
> # But it is machine dependant.
> #
> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/tex root:wheel 755
> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/tex/dump root:wheel 755
>
> # This directory is for resulting fontes, that is tfm and gf, vf and
> # pk. This is used, for tfm, by TeX; for pk and t1 by dvips(1).
> #
> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/gf root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/vf root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/tfm root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/pk root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/ps root:wheel 755
>
> # The not roff man pages---the doc--- will be put in DOCDIR, under a
> # dedicated subdirectory.
> #
> + d * $TARGETDOCDIR/kertex root:wheel 755
>
> #========== WEB
> + f $OBJDIR/web/bin1/tangle/tangle $TARGETBINDIR/tangle root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/tangle.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/tangle.1 root:wheel  
> 444
> + f $OBJDIR/web/bin1/weave/weave $TARGETBINDIR/weave root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/weave.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/weave.1 root:wheel 444
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/web.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/pooltype.1 root:wheel  
> 444
>
> #========== WEB auxiliaries
> + f $OBJDIR/webware/bin1/pooltype/pooltype $TARGETBINDIR/pooltype  
> root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/pooltype.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/pooltype.1  
> root:wheel 444
>
> #========== Donald E. Knuth's METAFONT.
> #
> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/inimf/inimf $TARGETBINDIR/inimf root:wheel 755
> = f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/inimf/mf.pool $PKGDIR/mf/pool/mf.pool root:wheel 444
> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/virmf/virmf $TARGETBINDIR/virmf root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/mf.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/mf.1 root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/plain.mf $PKGDIR/mf/mac/plain.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/null.mf $PKGDIR/mf/mac/null.mf root:wheel 444
> # TRAP stuff.
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trapman.tex $TARGETDOCDIR/kertex/trapman.tex  
> root:wheel 444
> # The special INIMF is not installed as an normal executable.
> #
> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/trapmf/trapmf $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trapmf root:wheel 444
> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/trapmf/mf.pool $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.pool root:wheel  
> 444
> + f $OBJDIR/mf/sh1/trapmf/trapmf.sh $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trapmf.sh root:wheel  
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.mf $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.fot $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.fot root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.log $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.log root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trapin.log $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trapin.log root:wheel  
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.pl $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.pl root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.typ $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.typ root:wheel 444
> # for GFtoDVI.
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/slant.mf $PKGDIR/mac/slant.mf root:wheel 444
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftodvi.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftodvi.1  
> root:wheel 444
>
> #========== METAFONT' auxiliaries
> #
> + f $OBJDIR/mfware/bin1/gftype/gftype $TARGETBINDIR/gftype root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftype.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftype.1 root:wheel  
> 444
> + f $OBJDIR/mfware/bin1/gftodvi/gftodvi $TARGETBINDIR/gftodvi root:wheel  
> 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftodvi.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftodvi.1  
> root:wheel 444
> + f $OBJDIR/mfware/bin1/mft/mft $TARGETBINDIR/mft root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/mft.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/mft.1 root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/plain.mft $PKGDIR/tex/mac/plain.mft root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/cmbase.mft $PKGDIR/tex/mac/cmbase.mft root:wheel  
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/mftmac.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/mftmac.tex root:wheel  
> 444
>
> #========== Donald E. Knuth's Computer Modern Typefaces.
> #
> # The drivers.
> #
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/accent.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/accent.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/bigacc.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/bigacc.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/bigdel.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/bigdel.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/bigop.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/bigop.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/calu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/calu.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbase.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbase.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cminch.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cminch.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/comlig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/comlig.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/csc.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/csc.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cscspu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cscspu.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/greekl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/greekl.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/greeku.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/greeku.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/itald.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/itald.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italig.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/itall.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/itall.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italms.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italms.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italp.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italp.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italsp.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italsp.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/mathex.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/mathex.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/mathit.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/mathit.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/mathsy.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/mathsy.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/olddig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/olddig.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/punct.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/punct.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/roman.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/roman.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romand.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romand.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romanl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romanl.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romanp.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romanp.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romanu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romanu.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romlig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romlig.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romms.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romms.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romspl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romspl.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romspu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romspu.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romsub.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romsub.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/sym.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/sym.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/symbol.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/symbol.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/texset.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/texset.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/textit.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/textit.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/title.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/title.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/tset.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/tset.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/tsetsl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/tsetsl.mf root:wheel 444
> #
> # The parameters.
> #
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmb10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmb10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbsy10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbsy10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx12.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx5.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx6.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx7.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbxsl10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbxsl10.mf root:wheel  
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbxti10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbxti10.mf root:wheel  
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmcsc10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmcsc10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmdunh10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmdunh10.mf root:wheel  
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmex10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmex10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmex9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmex9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmff10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmff10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmfi10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmfi10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmfib8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmfib8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmitt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmitt10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi12.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi5.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi6.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi7.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmib10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmib10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr12.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr17.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr17.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr5.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr6.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr7.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl12.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsltt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsltt10.mf root:wheel  
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss12.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss17.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss17.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssbx10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssbx10.mf root:wheel  
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssdc10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssdc10.mf root:wheel  
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi12.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi17.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi17.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssq8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssq8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssqi8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssqi8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy5.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy6.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy7.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtcsc10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtcsc10.mf root:wheel  
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtex10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtex10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtex8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtex8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtex9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtex9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti12.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti7.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt12.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmu10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmu10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmvtt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmvtt10.mf root:wheel 444
>
> #========== Donald E. Knuth's TeX.
> #
> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/initex/initex $TARGETBINDIR/initex root:wheel 755
> = f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/initex/tex.pool $PKGDIR/tex/pool/tex.pool  
> root:wheel 444
> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/virtex/virtex $TARGETBINDIR/virtex root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/tex.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/tex.1 root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/plain.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/plain.tex root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/hyphen.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/hyphen.tex root:wheel  
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/null.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/null.tex root:wheel 444
> # Plain TeX font
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/manfnt.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/manfnt.mf root:wheel 444
> # TRIP stuff.
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/tripman.tex $TARGETDOCDIR/kertex/tripman.tex  
> root:wheel 444
> # The special INITEX is not installed as an normal executable.
> #
> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/triptex/triptex $PKGDIR/tex/trip/triptex root:wheel  
> 755
> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/triptex/tex.pool $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.pool  
> root:wheel 755
> + f $OBJDIR/tex/sh1/triptex/triptex.sh $PKGDIR/tex/trip/triptex.sh  
> root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.tex $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.tex root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/tripos.tex $PKGDIR/tex/trip/tripos.tex root:wheel  
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.fot $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.fot root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.log $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.log root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/tripin.log $PKGDIR/tex/trip/tripin.log root:wheel  
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.pl $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.pl root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.tfm $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.tfm root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.typ $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.typ root:wheel 444
>
> #========== TeX' auxiliaries
> #
> + f $OBJDIR/texware/bin1/tftopl/tftopl $TARGETBINDIR/tftopl root:wheel  
> 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/tftopl.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/tftopl.1 root:wheel  
> 444
> + f $OBJDIR/texware/bin1/pltotf/pltotf $TARGETBINDIR/pltotf root:wheel  
> 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/pltotf.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/pltotf.1 root:wheel  
> 444
>
> #========== FONTWARE
> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/afm2tfm/afm2tfm $TARGETBINDIR/afm2tfm  
> root:wheel 755
> = f $PROJECTDIR/fontware/bin1/afm2tfm/MAN $TARGETMANDIR/man1/afm2tfm.1  
> root:wheel 444
> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/vftovp/vftovp $TARGETBINDIR/vftovp root:wheel  
> 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/vftovp.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/vftovp.1 root:wheel  
> 444
> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/vptovf/vptovf $TARGETBINDIR/vptovf root:wheel  
> 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/vptovf.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/vptovf.1 root:wheel  
> 444
> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/gftopk/gftopk $TARGETBINDIR/gftopk root:wheel  
> 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftopk.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftopk.1 root:wheel  
> 444
>
> #========== DVIWARE
> + f $OBJDIR/dviware/bin1/dvitype/dvitype $TARGETBINDIR/dvitype  
> root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/dvitype.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/dvitype.1  
> root:wheel 444
>
>
> I think the web pages and the documentation will be online on monday. I
> will drop a message when done.
> --
>         Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
>                       http://www.kergis.com/
> Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C


-- 
Best regards,
   santucco



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 13:32 ` Alexander Sychev
@ 2010-04-16 13:47   ` tlaronde
  2010-04-16 14:07   ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: tlaronde @ 2010-04-16 13:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 05:32:04PM +0400, Alexander Sychev wrote:
>
> Have you any plans to adapt the TeX for UTF-8 input?

Let me take a rest! ;) But the condition sine qua non to tackle UTF-8 is
: run on Plan9. And it runs.

I have even some ideas to allow right to left, top to bottom etc. by
changing minimally TeX (these are just rotations or mirrors of a box,
and I think
this can be done mainly by the dvi drivers if it is possible to inform
TeX to switch width and height when it is composing boxes...)
--
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 13:32 ` Alexander Sychev
  2010-04-16 13:47   ` tlaronde
@ 2010-04-16 14:07   ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-16 14:12     ` James Chapman
  2010-04-16 14:27     ` Alexander Sychev
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Karljurgen Feuerherm @ 2010-04-16 14:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 21237 bytes --]

XeTeX/XeLaTeX do this, I believe... Perhaps they can be ported at some
point?
 
K
 
Karljürgen G. Feuerherm, PhD
Department of Archaeology and Classical Studies
Wilfrid Laurier University
75 University Avenue West
Waterloo, Ontario N2L 3C5
Tel. (519) 884-1970 x3193
Fax (519) 883-0991 (ATTN Arch. & Classics)

>>> Alexander Sychev <santucco@gmail.com> 16/04/2010 9:32:04 am >>>
Hello!

Congratulations!

Have you any plans to adapt the TeX for UTF-8 input?

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 15:57:56 +0400, tlaronde@polynum.com 
< tlaronde@polynum.com > wrote:

> So it compiles without ado under Plan9! And it's pure C89 (POSIX is
just
> for the framework, not for the code: I have removed unneeded
> dependencies). And it's all the latest versions of the programs.
>
> So some numbers:
> - You will need to download a bundle of 4 chunks (I will put all 
> on
> my website; I think the licence for TeX/METAFONT allows thie):
>
> 1) Donald E. Knuth's sources: all the programs; the 
> sources for
> the Computer Modern Typefaces and the man pages (roff) I 
> have
> found here and there or reconstructed.
> => < 6 Mb (compressed)
>
> 2) kertex_M: these are the tools for the _matrix_ (the 
> vulcan;
> the node compiling; the cpu) translating from Pascal to 
> C.
> => < 54 kb (compressed)
>
> 3) kertex_T: the R.I.S.K. (see below) framework for 
> building
> TeX/METAFONT, that is the change files, the template 
> Makefiles,
> the PASCAL-H extensions implemented as a C library. Plus 
> some
> public domain software: dvips [it is not compiled for 
> now; it's
> the next in the list] and some auxiliary tools (afm2tfm 
> etc.);
> MetaPost (not included for now: next after dvips).
> => < 0.4 Mb
>
> 4) The R.I.S.K. comp framework (my stuff) that is just a 
> basic
> POSIX compliant way of configuring, compiling and 
> installing
> software. Everything is configured via basic parameters 
> file
> (you should not have to change something here; but it's 
> all
> sh(1), ed(1), sed(1) and make(1)).
> => < 125kb (compressed; the bigger par in size 
> is D.E. Knuth
> and Silvio Levy's CWEB [not used here] 
> that I use
> intensively).
>
> So the sources, it is less than 12 Mb uncompressed.
>
> And the sources can be (shall be) read-only so you can put them
where
> you want.
>
> Space requirements for compilation : you will need about 33 Mb of
free
> space or, at least, 12 Mb of free space if you use the
SAVE_SPACE=YES
> option of R.I.S.K. (in this case, the intermediary products are
removed
> whence the target is built; and when building the package, the
binaries
> are not copied in the tarball, but moved in the tarball).
>
> Time: on my old AMD Athlon (686-class), 1250.16 MHz, this takes less
> than 2 minutes and a half...
>
> The resulting package is 8 Mb. But the installation will need a
little
> more, since :
> 1) The METAFONT plain format is compiled leading to the program 
> that
> has the right to be called mf(1) since it passes the TRAP test.
>
> 2) All the Computer Modern fontes are compiled, using mf(1).
>
> 3) The TeX plain format is compiled leading to the program that 
> has
> the right to be called tex(1) since it passes the TRIP test.
>
> Since the work is done for allowing cross-compilation, the binaries
are
> not used on the matrix, but on the target, i.e. at installation
time.
>
> For the use of the stuff, I will need to put the essential in the
> document describing the process in the following days.
>
> For Plan9, one question: about the group (since for the user it will
be
> ignored). Which group ?
>
> I have decided that the stuff will be installed in:
>
> - /lib/kertex for machine independant stuff (the macros, but the
> compiled fontes too). Plan9 users can "bind -a" to ``redirect'' 
> what
> will be written where they want.
>
> - /$objtype/bin for the binaries. (idem)
>
> - /$objtype/lib/kertex/tex/dump/, and 
> /$objtype/lib/kertex/mf/dump/
> for the dump of the tables (the compil
ed version of the macros, 
> that
> is loaded say when you call virtex(1) mistex(1), this is 
> virtex(1)
> but it looks to is dump mistex.fmt to load it. The dumps are not
> machine independant, even not program independant since they 
> depend
> on options selected at compile time). (idem)
>
>
> To give you a view of what is installed (and possibly where), here
is
> the (generic: for Unices too) map [I need to change root:wheel to
> variable things) :
>
> #========== THE MAIN DIR TREE
> # Everything is relative (for the not man nor bin stuff) to PKGDIR
that
> # one can set as he sees fit.
> #
> + d * $PKGDIR/mf root:wheel 755
> # This is where we put Computer Modern _sources_ (parameters and
drivers
> # METAFONT's files).
> #
> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/cm root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/mac root:wheel 755
> # If you want to ``localize'' messages, look at D.E.K.'s pool stuff.
> #
> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/pool root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/trap root:wheel 755
> # Since to create a METAFONT' base file, one dumps, we call it:
dump.
> # But is is machine dependant.
> #
> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib root:wheel 755
> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/mf root:wheel 755
> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/mf/dump root:wheel 755
>
> + d * $PKGDIR/tex root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/tex/mac root:wheel 755
> # If you want to ``localize'' messages, look at D.E.K.'s pool stuff.
> #
> + d * $PKGDIR/tex/pool root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/tex/trip root:wheel 755
> # Since to create a TeX' format file, one dumps, we call it: dump.
> # But it is machine dependant.
> #
> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/tex root:wheel 755
> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/tex/dump root:wheel 755
>
> # This directory is for resulting fontes, that is tfm and gf, vf and
> # pk. This is used, for tfm, by TeX; for pk and t1 by dvips(1).
> #
> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/gf root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/vf root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/tfm root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/pk root:wheel 755
> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/ps root:wheel 755
>
> # The not roff man pages---the doc--- will be put in DOCDIR, under a
> # dedicated subdirectory.
> #
> + d * $TARGETDOCDIR/kertex root:wheel 755
>
> #========== WEB
> + f $OBJDIR/web/bin1/tangle/tangle $TARGETBINDIR/tangle root:wheel
755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/tangle.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/tangle.1
root:wheel 
> 444
> + f $OBJDIR/web/bin1/weave/weave $TARGETBINDIR/weave root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/weave.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/weave.1 root:wheel
444
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/web.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/pooltype.1
root:wheel 
> 444
>
> #========== WEB auxiliaries
> + f $OBJDIR/webware/bin1/pooltype/pooltype $TARGETBINDIR/pooltype 
> root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/pooltype.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/pooltype.1 
> root:wheel 444
>
> #========== Donald E. Knuth's METAFONT.
> #
> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/inimf/inimf $TARGETBINDIR/inimf root:wheel 755
> = f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/inimf/mf.pool $PKGDIR/mf/pool/mf.pool root:wheel
444
> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/virmf/virmf $TARGETBINDIR/virmf root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/mf.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/mf.1 root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/plain.mf $PKGDIR/mf/mac/plain.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/null.mf $PKGDIR/mf/mac/null.mf root:wheel 444
> # TRAP stuff.
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trapman.tex $TARGETDOCDIR/kertex/trapman.tex 
> root:wheel 444
> # The special INIMF is not installed as an normal executable.
> #
> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/trapmf/trapmf $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trapmf root:wheel
444
> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/trapmf/mf.pool $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.pool
root:wheel 
> 444
> + f $OBJDIR/mf/sh1/trapmf/trapmf.sh $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trapmf.sh
root:wheel 
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.mf $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.fot $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.fot root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.log $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.log root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trapin.log $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trapin.log
root:wheel 
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/tr
ap.pl $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.pl root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.typ $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.typ root:wheel
444
> # for GFtoDVI.
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/slant.mf $PKGDIR/mac/slant.mf root:wheel 444
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftodvi.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftodvi.1 
> root:wheel 444
>
> #========== METAFONT' auxiliaries
> #
> + f $OBJDIR/mfware/bin1/gftype/gftype $TARGETBINDIR/gftype root:wheel
755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftype.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftype.1
root:wheel 
> 444
> + f $OBJDIR/mfware/bin1/gftodvi/gftodvi $TARGETBINDIR/gftodvi
root:wheel 
> 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftodvi.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftodvi.1 
> root:wheel 444
> + f $OBJDIR/mfware/bin1/mft/mft $TARGETBINDIR/mft root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/mft.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/mft.1 root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/plain.mft $PKGDIR/tex/mac/plain.mft root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/cmbase.mft $PKGDIR/tex/mac/cmbase.mft
root:wheel 
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/mftmac.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/mftmac.tex
root:wheel 
> 444
>
> #========== Donald E. Knuth's Computer Modern Typefaces.
> #
> # The drivers.
> #
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/accent.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/accent.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/bigacc.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/bigacc.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/bigdel.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/bigdel.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/bigop.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/bigop.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/calu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/calu.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbase.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbase.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cminch.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cminch.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/comlig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/comlig.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/csc.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/csc.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cscspu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cscspu.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/greekl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/greekl.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/greeku.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/greeku.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/itald.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/itald.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italig.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/itall.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/itall.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italms.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italms.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italp.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italp.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italsp.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italsp.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/mathex.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/mathex.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/mathit.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/mathit.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/mathsy.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/mathsy.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/olddig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/olddig.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/punct.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/punct.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/roman.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/roman.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romand.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romand.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romanl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romanl.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romanp.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romanp.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romanu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romanu.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romlig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romlig.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romms.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romms.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romspl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romspl.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romspu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romspu.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romsub.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romsub.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/sym.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/sym.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/symbol.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/symbol.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/texset.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/texset.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/textit.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/textit.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/title.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/title.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/tset.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/tset.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/tsetsl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/tsetsl.mf root:wheel

444
> #
> # The parameters.
> #
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmb10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmb10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbsy10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbsy10.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx10.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx12.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx5.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx6.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx7.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbxsl10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbxsl10.mf
root:wheel 
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbxti10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbxti10.mf
root:wheel 
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmcsc10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmcsc10.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmdunh10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmdunh10.mf
root:wheel 
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmex10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmex10.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmex9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmex9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmff10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmff10.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmfi10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmfi10.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmfib8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmfib8.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmitt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmitt10.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi10.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi12.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi5.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi6.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi7.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmib10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmib10.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr12.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr17.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr17.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr5.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr6.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr7.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl10.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl12.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsltt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsltt10.mf
root:wheel 
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss10.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss12.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss17.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss17.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssbx10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssbx10.mf
root:wheel 
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssdc10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssdc10.mf
root:wheel 
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi10.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi12.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi17.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi17.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi8.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi9.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssq8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssq8.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssqi8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssqi8.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cm
sy10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy10.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy5.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy6.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy7.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtcsc10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtcsc10.mf
root:wheel 
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtex10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtex10.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtex8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtex8.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtex9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtex9.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti10.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti12.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti7.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt10.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt12.mf root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt8.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt9.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmu10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmu10.mf root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmvtt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmvtt10.mf root:wheel
444
>
> #========== Donald E. Knuth's TeX.
> #
> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/initex/initex $TARGETBINDIR/initex root:wheel
755
> = f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/initex/tex.pool $PKGDIR/tex/pool/tex.pool 
> root:wheel 444
> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/virtex/virtex $TARGETBINDIR/virtex root:wheel
755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/tex.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/tex.1 root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/plain.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/plain.tex root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/hyphen.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/hyphen.tex
root:wheel 
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/null.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/null.tex root:wheel
444
> # Plain TeX font
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/manfnt.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/manfnt.mf root:wheel
444
> # TRIP stuff.
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/tripman.tex $TARGETDOCDIR/kertex/tripman.tex 
> root:wheel 444
> # The special INITEX is not installed as an normal executable.
> #
> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/triptex/triptex $PKGDIR/tex/trip/triptex
root:wheel 
> 755
> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/triptex/tex.pool $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.pool 
> root:wheel 755
> + f $OBJDIR/tex/sh1/triptex/triptex.sh $PKGDIR/tex/trip/triptex.sh 
> root:wheel 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.tex $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.tex root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/tripos.tex $PKGDIR/tex/trip/tripos.tex
root:wheel 
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.fot $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.fot root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.log $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.log root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/tripin.log $PKGDIR/tex/trip/tripin.log
root:wheel 
> 444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.pl $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.pl root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.tfm $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.tfm root:wheel
444
> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.typ $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.typ root:wheel
444
>
> #========== TeX' auxiliaries
> #
> + f $OBJDIR/texware/bin1/tftopl/tftopl $TARGETBINDIR/tftopl
root:wheel 
> 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/tftopl.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/tftopl.1
root:wheel 
> 444
> + f $OBJDIR/texware/bin1/pltotf/pltotf $TARGETBINDIR/pltotf
root:wheel 
> 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/pltotf.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/pltotf.1
root:wheel 
> 444
>
> #========== FONTWARE
> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/afm2tfm/afm2tfm $TARGETBINDIR/afm2tfm 
> root:wheel 755
> = f $PROJECTDIR/fontware/bin1/afm2tfm/MAN
$TARGETMANDIR/man1/afm2tfm.1 
> root:wheel 444
> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/vftovp/vftovp $TARGETBINDIR/vftovp
root:wheel 
> 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/vftovp.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/vftovp.1
root:wheel 
> 444
> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/vptovf/vptovf $TARGETBINDIR/vptov
f
root:wheel 
> 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/vptovf.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/vptovf.1
root:wheel 
> 444
> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/gftopk/gftopk $TARGETBINDIR/gftopk
root:wheel 
> 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftopk.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftopk.1
root:wheel 
> 444
>
> #========== DVIWARE
> + f $OBJDIR/dviware/bin1/dvitype/dvitype $TARGETBINDIR/dvitype 
> root:wheel 755
> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/dvitype.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/dvitype.1 
> root:wheel 444
>
>
> I think the web pages and the documentation will be online on monday.
I
> will drop a message when done.
> --
> Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
> http://www.kergis.com/ 
> Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C


-- 
Best regards,
santucco



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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 14:07   ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
@ 2010-04-16 14:12     ` James Chapman
  2010-04-16 14:27     ` Alexander Sychev
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: James Chapman @ 2010-04-16 14:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

LaTeX does too. I have used it with a recent version of TeX Live to
get greek and mathematical symbols in verbatim code listings.

James

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 5:07 PM, Karljurgen Feuerherm <kfeuerherm@wlu.ca> wrote:
> XeTeX/XeLaTeX do this, I believe... Perhaps they can be ported at some
> point?
>
> K
>
> Karljürgen G. Feuerherm, PhD
> Department of Archaeology and Classical Studies
> Wilfrid Laurier University
> 75 University Avenue West
> Waterloo, Ontario N2L 3C5
> Tel. (519) 884-1970 x3193
> Fax (519) 883-0991 (ATTN Arch. & Classics)
>
>>>> Alexander Sychev <santucco@gmail.com> 16/04/2010 9:32:04 am >>>
> Hello!
>
> Congratulations!
>
> Have you any plans to adapt the TeX for UTF-8 input?
>
> On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 15:57:56 +0400, tlaronde@polynum.com
> < tlaronde@polynum.com > wrote:
>
>> So it compiles without ado under Plan9! And it's pure C89 (POSIX is just
>> for the framework, not for the code: I have removed unneeded
>> dependencies). And it's all the latest versions of the programs.
>>
>> So some numbers:
>> - You will need to download a bundle of 4 chunks (I will put all
>> on
>> my website; I think the licence for TeX/METAFONT allows thie):
>>
>> 1) Donald E. Knuth's sources: all the programs; the
>> sources for
>> the Computer Modern Typefaces and the man pages (roff) I
>> have
>> found here and there or reconstructed.
>> => < 6 Mb (compressed)
>>
>> 2) kertex_M: these are the tools for the _matrix_ (the
>> vulcan;
>> the node compiling; the cpu) translating from Pascal to
>> C.
>> => < 54 kb (compressed)
>>
>> 3) kertex_T: the R.I.S.K. (see below) framework for
>> building
>> TeX/METAFONT, that is the change files, the template
>> Makefiles,
>> the PASCAL-H extensions implemented as a C library. Plus
>> some
>> public domain software: dvips [it is not compiled for
>> now; it's
>> the next in the list] and some auxiliary tools (afm2tfm
>> etc.);
>> MetaPost (not included for now: next after dvips).
>> => < 0.4 Mb
>>
>> 4) The R.I.S.K. comp framework (my stuff) that is just a
>> basic
>> POSIX compliant way of configuring, compiling and
>> installing
>> software. Everything is configured via basic parameters
>> file
>> (you should not have to change something here; but it's
>> all
>> sh(1), ed(1), sed(1) and make(1)).
>> => < 125kb (compressed; the bigger par in size
>> is D.E. Knuth
>> and Silvio Levy's CWEB [not used here]
>> that I use
>> intensively).
>>
>> So the sources, it is less than 12 Mb uncompressed.
>>
>> And the sources can be (shall be) read-only so you can put them where
>> you want.
>>
>> Space requirements for compilation : you will need about 33 Mb of free
>> space or, at least, 12 Mb of free space if you use the SAVE_SPACE=YES
>> option of R.I.S.K. (in this case, the intermediary products are removed
>> whence the target is built; and when building the package, the binaries
>> are not copied in the tarball, but moved in the tarball).
>>
>> Time: on my old AMD Athlon (686-class), 1250.16 MHz, this takes less
>> than 2 minutes and a half...
>>
>> The resulting package is 8 Mb. But the installation will need a little
>> more, since :
>> 1) The METAFONT plain format is compiled leading to the program
>> that
>> has the right to be called mf(1) since it passes the TRAP test.
>>
>> 2) All the Computer Modern fontes are compiled, using mf(1).
>>
>> 3) The TeX plain format is compiled leading to the program that
>> has
>> the right to be called tex(1) since it passes the TRIP test.
>>
>> Since the work is done for allowing cross-compilation, the binaries are
>> not used on the matrix, but on the target, i.e. at installation time.
>>
>> For the use of the stuff, I will need to put the essential in the
>> document describing the process in the following days.
>>
>> For Plan9, one question: about the group (since for the user it will be
>> ignored). Which group ?
>>
>> I have decided that the stuff will be installed in:
>>
>> - /lib/kertex for machine independant stuff (the macros, but the
>> compiled fontes too). Plan9 users can "bind -a" to ``redirect''
>> what
>> will be written where they want.
>>
>> - /$objtype/bin for the binaries. (idem)
>>
>> - /$objtype/lib/kertex/tex/dump/, and
>> /$objtype/lib/kertex/mf/dump/
>> for the dump of the tables (the compiled version of the macros,
>> that
>> is loaded say when you call virtex(1) mistex(1), this is
>> virtex(1)
>> but it looks to is dump mistex.fmt to load it. The dumps are not
>> machine independant, even not program independant since they
>> depend
>> on options selected at compile time). (idem)
>>
>>
>> To give you a view of what is installed (and possibly where), here is
>> the (generic: for Unices too) map [I need to change root:wheel to
>> variable things) :
>>
>> #========== THE MAIN DIR TREE
>> # Everything is relative (for the not man nor bin stuff) to PKGDIR that
>> # one can set as he sees fit.
>> #
>> + d * $PKGDIR/mf root:wheel 755
>> # This is where we put Computer Modern _sources_ (parameters and drivers
>> # METAFONT's files).
>> #
>> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/cm root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/mac root:wheel 755
>> # If you want to ``localize'' messages, look at D.E.K.'s pool stuff.
>> #
>> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/pool root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/trap root:wheel 755
>> # Since to create a METAFONT' base file, one dumps, we call it: dump.
>> # But is is machine dependant.
>> #
>> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib root:wheel 755
>> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/mf root:wheel 755
>> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/mf/dump root:wheel 755
>>
>> + d * $PKGDIR/tex root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/tex/mac root:wheel 755
>> # If you want to ``localize'' messages, look at D.E.K.'s pool stuff.
>> #
>> + d * $PKGDIR/tex/pool root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/tex/trip root:wheel 755
>> # Since to create a TeX' format file, one dumps, we call it: dump.
>> # But it is machine dependant.
>> #
>> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/tex root:wheel 755
>> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/tex/dump root:wheel 755
>>
>> # This directory is for resulting fontes, that is tfm and gf, vf and
>> # pk. This is used, for tfm, by TeX; for pk and t1 by dvips(1).
>> #
>> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/gf root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/vf root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/tfm root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/pk root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/ps root:wheel 755
>>
>> # The not roff man pages---the doc--- will be put in DOCDIR, under a
>> # dedicated subdirectory.
>> #
>> + d * $TARGETDOCDIR/kertex root:wheel 755
>>
>> #========== WEB
>> + f $OBJDIR/web/bin1/tangle/tangle $TARGETBINDIR/tangle root:wheel 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/tangle.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/tangle.1 root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/web/bin1/weave/weave $TARGETBINDIR/weave root:wheel 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/weave.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/weave.1 root:wheel 444
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/web.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/pooltype.1 root:wheel
>> 444
>>
>> #========== WEB auxiliaries
>> + f $OBJDIR/webware/bin1/pooltype/pooltype $TARGETBINDIR/pooltype
>> root:wheel 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/pooltype.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/pooltype.1
>> root:wheel 444
>>
>> #========== Donald E. Knuth's METAFONT.
>> #
>> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/inimf/inimf $TARGETBINDIR/inimf root:wheel 755
>> = f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/inimf/mf.pool $PKGDIR/mf/pool/mf.pool root:wheel 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/virmf/virmf $TARGETBINDIR/virmf root:wheel 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/mf.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/mf.1 root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/plain.mf $PKGDIR/mf/mac/plain.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/null.mf $PKGDIR/mf/mac/null.mf root:wheel 444
>> # TRAP stuff.
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trapman.tex $TARGETDOCDIR/kertex/trapman.tex
>> root:wheel 444
>> # The special INIMF is not installed as an normal executable.
>> #
>> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/trapmf/trapmf $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trapmf root:wheel 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/trapmf/mf.pool $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.pool root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/mf/sh1/trapmf/trapmf.sh $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trapmf.sh root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.mf $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.fot $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.fot root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.log $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.log root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trapin.log $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trapin.log root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.pl $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.pl root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.typ $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.typ root:wheel 444
>> # for GFtoDVI.
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/slant.mf $PKGDIR/mac/slant.mf root:wheel 444
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftodvi.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftodvi.1
>> root:wheel 444
>>
>> #========== METAFONT' auxiliaries
>> #
>> + f $OBJDIR/mfware/bin1/gftype/gftype $TARGETBINDIR/gftype root:wheel 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftype.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftype.1 root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/mfware/bin1/gftodvi/gftodvi $TARGETBINDIR/gftodvi root:wheel
>> 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftodvi.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftodvi.1
>> root:wheel 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/mfware/bin1/mft/mft $TARGETBINDIR/mft root:wheel 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/mft.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/mft.1 root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/plain.mft $PKGDIR/tex/mac/plain.mft root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/cmbase.mft $PKGDIR/tex/mac/cmbase.mft root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/mftmac.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/mftmac.tex root:wheel
>> 444
>>
>> #========== Donald E. Knuth's Computer Modern Typefaces.
>> #
>> # The drivers.
>> #
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/accent.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/accent.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/bigacc.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/bigacc.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/bigdel.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/bigdel.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/bigop.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/bigop.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/calu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/calu.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbase.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbase.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cminch.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cminch.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/comlig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/comlig.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/csc.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/csc.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cscspu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cscspu.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/greekl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/greekl.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/greeku.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/greeku.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/itald.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/itald.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italig.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/itall.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/itall.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italms.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italms.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italp.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italp.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italsp.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italsp.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/mathex.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/mathex.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/mathit.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/mathit.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/mathsy.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/mathsy.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/olddig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/olddig.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/punct.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/punct.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/roman.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/roman.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romand.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romand.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romanl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romanl.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romanp.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romanp.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romanu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romanu.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romlig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romlig.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romms.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romms.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romspl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romspl.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romspu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romspu.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romsub.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romsub.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/sym.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/sym.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/symbol.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/symbol.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/texset.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/texset.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/textit.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/textit.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/title.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/title.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/tset.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/tset.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/tsetsl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/tsetsl.mf root:wheel 444
>> #
>> # The parameters.
>> #
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmb10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmb10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbsy10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbsy10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx12.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx5.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx6.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx7.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx9.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbxsl10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbxsl10.mf root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbxti10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbxti10.mf root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmcsc10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmcsc10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmdunh10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmdunh10.mf root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmex10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmex10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmex9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmex9.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmff10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmff10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmfi10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmfi10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmfib8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmfib8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmitt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmitt10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi12.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi5.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi6.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi7.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi9.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmib10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmib10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr12.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr17.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr17.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr5.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr6.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr7.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr9.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl12.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl9.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsltt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsltt10.mf root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss12.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss17.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss17.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss9.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssbx10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssbx10.mf root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssdc10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssdc10.mf root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi12.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi17.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi17.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi9.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssq8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssq8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssqi8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssqi8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy5.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy6.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy7.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy9.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtcsc10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtcsc10.mf root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtex10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtex10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtex8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtex8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtex9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtex9.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti12.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti7.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti9.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt12.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt9.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmu10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmu10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmvtt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmvtt10.mf root:wheel 444
>>
>> #========== Donald E. Knuth's TeX.
>> #
>> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/initex/initex $TARGETBINDIR/initex root:wheel 755
>> = f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/initex/tex.pool $PKGDIR/tex/pool/tex.pool
>> root:wheel 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/virtex/virtex $TARGETBINDIR/virtex root:wheel 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/tex.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/tex.1 root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/plain.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/plain.tex root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/hyphen.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/hyphen.tex root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/null.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/null.tex root:wheel 444
>> # Plain TeX font
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/manfnt.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/manfnt.mf root:wheel 444
>> # TRIP stuff.
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/tripman.tex $TARGETDOCDIR/kertex/tripman.tex
>> root:wheel 444
>> # The special INITEX is not installed as an normal executable.
>> #
>> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/triptex/triptex $PKGDIR/tex/trip/triptex root:wheel
>> 755
>> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/triptex/tex.pool $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.pool
>> root:wheel 755
>> + f $OBJDIR/tex/sh1/triptex/triptex.sh $PKGDIR/tex/trip/triptex.sh
>> root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.tex $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.tex root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/tripos.tex $PKGDIR/tex/trip/tripos.tex root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.fot $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.fot root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.log $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.log root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/tripin.log $PKGDIR/tex/trip/tripin.log root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.pl $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.pl root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.tfm $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.tfm root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.typ $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.typ root:wheel 444
>>
>> #========== TeX' auxiliaries
>> #
>> + f $OBJDIR/texware/bin1/tftopl/tftopl $TARGETBINDIR/tftopl root:wheel
>> 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/tftopl.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/tftopl.1 root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/texware/bin1/pltotf/pltotf $TARGETBINDIR/pltotf root:wheel
>> 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/pltotf.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/pltotf.1 root:wheel
>> 444
>>
>> #========== FONTWARE
>> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/afm2tfm/afm2tfm $TARGETBINDIR/afm2tfm
>> root:wheel 755
>> = f $PROJECTDIR/fontware/bin1/afm2tfm/MAN $TARGETMANDIR/man1/afm2tfm.1
>> root:wheel 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/vftovp/vftovp $TARGETBINDIR/vftovp root:wheel
>> 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/vftovp.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/vftovp.1 root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/vptovf/vptovf $TARGETBINDIR/vptovf root:wheel
>> 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/vptovf.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/vptovf.1 root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/gftopk/gftopk $TARGETBINDIR/gftopk root:wheel
>> 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftopk.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftopk.1 root:wheel
>> 444
>>
>> #========== DVIWARE
>> + f $OBJDIR/dviware/bin1/dvitype/dvitype $TARGETBINDIR/dvitype
>> root:wheel 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/dvitype.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/dvitype.1
>> root:wheel 444
>>
>>
>> I think the web pages and the documentation will be online on monday. I
>> will drop a message when done.
>> --
>> Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
>> http://www.kergis.com/
>> Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> santucco
>
>



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 14:07   ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-16 14:12     ` James Chapman
@ 2010-04-16 14:27     ` Alexander Sychev
  2010-04-16 16:19       ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-16 18:03       ` [9fans] TeX: hurrah! Joel C. Salomon
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Alexander Sychev @ 2010-04-16 14:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 18:07:14 +0400, Karljurgen Feuerherm  
<kfeuerherm@wlu.ca> wrote:

> XeTeX/XeLaTeX do this, I believe... Perhaps they can be ported at some  
> point?

IFAIK,  XeTeX/XeLaTeX based on C++ code.

>
> K
>
> Karljürgen G. Feuerherm, PhD
> Department of Archaeology and Classical Studies
> Wilfrid Laurier University
> 75 University Avenue West
> Waterloo, Ontario N2L 3C5
> Tel. (519) 884-1970 x3193
> Fax (519) 883-0991 (ATTN Arch. & Classics)
>
>>>> Alexander Sychev <santucco@gmail.com> 16/04/2010 9:32:04 am >>>
> Hello!
>
> Congratulations!
>
> Have you any plans to adapt the TeX for UTF-8 input?
>
> On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 15:57:56 +0400,  
> tlaronde@polynum.com<mailto:tlaronde@polynum.com>
> < tlaronde@polynum.com<mailto:tlaronde@polynum.com> > wrote:
>
>> So it compiles without ado under Plan9! And it's pure C89 (POSIX is just
>> for the framework, not for the code: I have removed unneeded
>> dependencies). And it's all the latest versions of the programs.
>>
>> So some numbers:
>> - You will need to download a bundle of 4 chunks (I will put all
>> on
>> my website; I think the licence for TeX/METAFONT allows thie):
>>
>> 1) Donald E. Knuth's sources: all the programs; the
>> sources for
>> the Computer Modern Typefaces and the man pages (roff) I
>> have
>> found here and there or reconstructed.
>> => < 6 Mb (compressed)
>>
>> 2) kertex_M: these are the tools for the _matrix_ (the
>> vulcan;
>> the node compiling; the cpu) translating from Pascal to
>> C.
>> => < 54 kb (compressed)
>>
>> 3) kertex_T: the R.I.S.K. (see below) framework for
>> building
>> TeX/METAFONT, that is the change files, the template
>> Makefiles,
>> the PASCAL-H extensions implemented as a C library. Plus
>> some
>> public domain software: dvips [it is not compiled for
>> now; it's
>> the next in the list] and some auxiliary tools (afm2tfm
>> etc.);
>> MetaPost (not included for now: next after dvips).
>> => < 0.4 Mb
>>
>> 4) The R.I.S.K. comp framework (my stuff) that is just a
>> basic
>> POSIX compliant way of configuring, compiling and
>> installing
>> software. Everything is configured via basic parameters
>> file
>> (you should not have to change something here; but it's
>> all
>> sh(1), ed(1), sed(1) and make(1)).
>> => < 125kb (compressed; the bigger par in size
>> is D.E. Knuth
>> and Silvio Levy's CWEB [not used here]
>> that I use
>> intensively).
>>
>> So the sources, it is less than 12 Mb uncompressed.
>>
>> And the sources can be (shall be) read-only so you can put them where
>> you want.
>>
>> Space requirements for compilation : you will need about 33 Mb of free
>> space or, at least, 12 Mb of free space if you use the SAVE_SPACE=YES
>> option of R.I.S.K. (in this case, the intermediary products are removed
>> whence the target is built; and when building the package, the binaries
>> are not copied in the tarball, but moved in the tarball).
>>
>> Time: on my old AMD Athlon (686-class), 1250.16 MHz, this takes less
>> than 2 minutes and a half...
>>
>> The resulting package is 8 Mb. But the installation will need a little
>> more, since :
>> 1) The METAFONT plain format is compiled leading to the program
>> that
>> has the right to be called mf(1) since it passes the TRAP test.
>>
>> 2) All the Computer Modern fontes are compiled, using mf(1).
>>
>> 3) The TeX plain format is compiled leading to the program that
>> has
>> the right to be called tex(1) since it passes the TRIP test.
>>
>> Since the work is done for allowing cross-compilation, the binaries are
>> not used on the matrix, but on the target, i.e. at installation time.
>>
>> For the use of the stuff, I will need to put the essential in the
>> document describing the process in the following days.
>>
>> For Plan9, one question: about the group (since for the user it will be
>> ignored). Which group ?
>>
>> I have decided that the stuff will be installed in:
>>
>> - /lib/kertex for machine independant stuff (the macros, but the
>> compiled fontes too). Plan9 users can "bind -a" to ``redirect''
>> what
>> will be written where they want.
>>
>> - /$objtype/bin for the binaries. (idem)
>>
>> - /$objtype/lib/kertex/tex/dump/, and
>> /$objtype/lib/kertex/mf/dump/
>> for the dump of the tables (the compiled version of the macros,
>> that
>> is loaded say when you call virtex(1) mistex(1), this is
>> virtex(1)
>> but it looks to is dump mistex.fmt to load it. The dumps are not
>> machine independant, even not program independant since they
>> depend
>> on options selected at compile time). (idem)
>>
>>
>> To give you a view of what is installed (and possibly where), here is
>> the (generic: for Unices too) map [I need to change root:wheel to
>> variable things) :
>>
>> #========== THE MAIN DIR TREE
>> # Everything is relative (for the not man nor bin stuff) to PKGDIR that
>> # one can set as he sees fit.
>> #
>> + d * $PKGDIR/mf root:wheel 755
>> # This is where we put Computer Modern _sources_ (parameters and drivers
>> # METAFONT's files).
>> #
>> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/cm root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/mac root:wheel 755
>> # If you want to ``localize'' messages, look at D.E.K.'s pool stuff.
>> #
>> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/pool root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/trap root:wheel 755
>> # Since to create a METAFONT' base file, one dumps, we call it: dump.
>> # But is is machine dependant.
>> #
>> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib root:wheel 755
>> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/mf root:wheel 755
>> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/mf/dump root:wheel 755
>>
>> + d * $PKGDIR/tex root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/tex/mac root:wheel 755
>> # If you want to ``localize'' messages, look at D.E.K.'s pool stuff.
>> #
>> + d * $PKGDIR/tex/pool root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/tex/trip root:wheel 755
>> # Since to create a TeX' format file, one dumps, we call it: dump.
>> # But it is machine dependant.
>> #
>> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/tex root:wheel 755
>> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/tex/dump root:wheel 755
>>
>> # This directory is for resulting fontes, that is tfm and gf, vf and
>> # pk. This is used, for tfm, by TeX; for pk and t1 by dvips(1).
>> #
>> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/gf root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/vf root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/tfm root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/pk root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/ps root:wheel 755
>>
>> # The not roff man pages---the doc--- will be put in DOCDIR, under a
>> # dedicated subdirectory.
>> #
>> + d * $TARGETDOCDIR/kertex root:wheel 755
>>
>> #========== WEB
>> + f $OBJDIR/web/bin1/tangle/tangle $TARGETBINDIR/tangle root:wheel 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/tangle.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/tangle.1 root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/web/bin1/weave/weave $TARGETBINDIR/weave root:wheel 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/weave.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/weave.1 root:wheel  
>> 444
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/web.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/pooltype.1 root:wheel
>> 444
>>
>> #========== WEB auxiliaries
>> + f $OBJDIR/webware/bin1/pooltype/pooltype $TARGETBINDIR/pooltype
>> root:wheel 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/pooltype.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/pooltype.1
>> root:wheel 444
>>
>> #========== Donald E. Knuth's METAFONT.
>> #
>> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/inimf/inimf $TARGETBINDIR/inimf root:wheel 755
>> = f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/inimf/mf.pool $PKGDIR/mf/pool/mf.pool root:wheel 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/virmf/virmf $TARGETBINDIR/virmf root:wheel 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/mf.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/mf.1 root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/plain.mf $PKGDIR/mf/mac/plain.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/null.mf $PKGDIR/mf/mac/null.mf root:wheel 444
>> # TRAP stuff.
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trapman.tex $TARGETDOCDIR/kertex/trapman.tex
>> root:wheel 444
>> # The special INIMF is not installed as an normal executable.
>> #
>> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/trapmf/trapmf $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trapmf root:wheel 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/trapmf/mf.pool $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.pool root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/mf/sh1/trapmf/trapmf.sh $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trapmf.sh root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.mf $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.fot $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.fot root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.log $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.log root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trapin.log $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trapin.log root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.pl $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.pl root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.typ $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.typ root:wheel 444
>> # for GFtoDVI.
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/slant.mf $PKGDIR/mac/slant.mf root:wheel 444
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftodvi.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftodvi.1
>> root:wheel 444
>>
>> #========== METAFONT' auxiliaries
>> #
>> + f $OBJDIR/mfware/bin1/gftype/gftype $TARGETBINDIR/gftype root:wheel  
>> 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftype.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftype.1 root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/mfware/bin1/gftodvi/gftodvi $TARGETBINDIR/gftodvi root:wheel
>> 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftodvi.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftodvi.1
>> root:wheel 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/mfware/bin1/mft/mft $TARGETBINDIR/mft root:wheel 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/mft.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/mft.1 root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/plain.mft $PKGDIR/tex/mac/plain.mft root:wheel  
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/cmbase.mft $PKGDIR/tex/mac/cmbase.mft root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/mftmac.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/mftmac.tex root:wheel
>> 444
>>
>> #========== Donald E. Knuth's Computer Modern Typefaces.
>> #
>> # The drivers.
>> #
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/accent.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/accent.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/bigacc.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/bigacc.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/bigdel.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/bigdel.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/bigop.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/bigop.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/calu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/calu.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbase.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbase.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cminch.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cminch.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/comlig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/comlig.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/csc.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/csc.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cscspu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cscspu.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/greekl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/greekl.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/greeku.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/greeku.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/itald.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/itald.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italig.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/itall.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/itall.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italms.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italms.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italp.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italp.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italsp.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italsp.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/mathex.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/mathex.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/mathit.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/mathit.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/mathsy.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/mathsy.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/olddig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/olddig.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/punct.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/punct.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/roman.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/roman.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romand.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romand.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romanl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romanl.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romanp.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romanp.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romanu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romanu.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romlig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romlig.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romms.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romms.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romspl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romspl.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romspu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romspu.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romsub.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romsub.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/sym.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/sym.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/symbol.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/symbol.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/texset.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/texset.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/textit.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/textit.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/title.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/title.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/tset.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/tset.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/tsetsl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/tsetsl.mf root:wheel 444
>> #
>> # The parameters.
>> #
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmb10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmb10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbsy10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbsy10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx12.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx5.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx6.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx7.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx9.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbxsl10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbxsl10.mf root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbxti10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbxti10.mf root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmcsc10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmcsc10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmdunh10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmdunh10.mf root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmex10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmex10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmex9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmex9.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmff10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmff10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmfi10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmfi10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmfib8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmfib8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmitt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmitt10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi12.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi5.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi6.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi7.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi9.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmib10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmib10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr12.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr17.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr17.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr5.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr6.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr7.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr9.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl12.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl9.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsltt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsltt10.mf root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss12.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss17.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss17.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss9.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssbx10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssbx10.mf root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssdc10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssdc10.mf root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi12.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi17.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi17.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi9.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssq8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssq8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssqi8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssqi8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy5.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy6.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy7.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy9.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtcsc10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtcsc10.mf root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtex10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtex10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtex8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtex8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtex9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtex9.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti12.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti7.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti9.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt12.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt9.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmu10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmu10.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmvtt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmvtt10.mf root:wheel 444
>>
>> #========== Donald E. Knuth's TeX.
>> #
>> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/initex/initex $TARGETBINDIR/initex root:wheel 755
>> = f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/initex/tex.pool $PKGDIR/tex/pool/tex.pool
>> root:wheel 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/virtex/virtex $TARGETBINDIR/virtex root:wheel 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/tex.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/tex.1 root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/plain.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/plain.tex root:wheel  
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/hyphen.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/hyphen.tex root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/null.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/null.tex root:wheel 444
>> # Plain TeX font
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/manfnt.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/manfnt.mf root:wheel 444
>> # TRIP stuff.
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/tripman.tex $TARGETDOCDIR/kertex/tripman.tex
>> root:wheel 444
>> # The special INITEX is not installed as an normal executable.
>> #
>> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/triptex/triptex $PKGDIR/tex/trip/triptex root:wheel
>> 755
>> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/triptex/tex.pool $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.pool
>> root:wheel 755
>> + f $OBJDIR/tex/sh1/triptex/triptex.sh $PKGDIR/tex/trip/triptex.sh
>> root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.tex $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.tex root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/tripos.tex $PKGDIR/tex/trip/tripos.tex root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.fot $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.fot root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.log $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.log root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/tripin.log $PKGDIR/tex/trip/tripin.log root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.pl $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.pl root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.tfm $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.tfm root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.typ $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.typ root:wheel 444
>>
>> #========== TeX' auxiliaries
>> #
>> + f $OBJDIR/texware/bin1/tftopl/tftopl $TARGETBINDIR/tftopl root:wheel
>> 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/tftopl.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/tftopl.1 root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/texware/bin1/pltotf/pltotf $TARGETBINDIR/pltotf root:wheel
>> 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/pltotf.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/pltotf.1 root:wheel
>> 444
>>
>> #========== FONTWARE
>> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/afm2tfm/afm2tfm $TARGETBINDIR/afm2tfm
>> root:wheel 755
>> = f $PROJECTDIR/fontware/bin1/afm2tfm/MAN $TARGETMANDIR/man1/afm2tfm.1
>> root:wheel 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/vftovp/vftovp $TARGETBINDIR/vftovp root:wheel
>> 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/vftovp.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/vftovp.1 root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/vptovf/vptovf $TARGETBINDIR/vptovf root:wheel
>> 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/vptovf.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/vptovf.1 root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/gftopk/gftopk $TARGETBINDIR/gftopk root:wheel
>> 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftopk.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftopk.1 root:wheel
>> 444
>>
>> #========== DVIWARE
>> + f $OBJDIR/dviware/bin1/dvitype/dvitype $TARGETBINDIR/dvitype
>> root:wheel 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/dvitype.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/dvitype.1
>> root:wheel 444
>>
>>
>> I think the web pages and the documentation will be online on monday. I
>> will drop a message when done.
>> --
>> Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
>> http://www.kergis.com/
>> Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> santucco
>


-- 
Best regards,
   santucco



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 14:27     ` Alexander Sychev
@ 2010-04-16 16:19       ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-16 16:23         ` erik quanstrom
  2010-04-16 16:47         ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-16 18:03       ` [9fans] TeX: hurrah! Joel C. Salomon
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Karljurgen Feuerherm @ 2010-04-16 16:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 22119 bytes --]

1. "IFAIK"? Can't find that anywhere...
 
2. Is C++ a problem? Not supported by Plan9?
 
K

>>> Alexander Sychev <santucco@gmail.com> 16/04/2010 10:27:36 am >>>
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 18:07:14 +0400, Karljurgen Feuerherm 
< kfeuerherm@wlu.ca > wrote:

> XeTeX/XeLaTeX do this, I believe... Perhaps they can be ported at
some 
> point?

IFAIK, XeTeX/XeLaTeX based on C++ code.

>
> K
>
> Karljürgen G. Feuerherm, PhD
> Department of Archaeology and Classical Studies
> Wilfrid Laurier University
> 75 University Avenue West
> Waterloo, Ontario N2L 3C5
> Tel. (519) 884-1970 x3193
> Fax (519) 883-0991 (ATTN Arch. & Classics)
>
>>>> Alexander Sychev < santucco@gmail.com > 16/04/2010 9:32:04 am >>>
> Hello!
>
> Congratulations!
>
> Have you any plans to adapt the TeX for UTF-8 input?
>
> On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 15:57:56 +0400, 
> tlaronde@polynum.com < mailto:tlaronde@polynum.com >
> < tlaronde@polynum.com < mailto:tlaronde@polynum.com > > wrote:
>
>> So it compiles without ado under Plan9! And it's pure C89 (POSIX is
just
>> for the framework, not for the code: I have removed unneeded
>> dependencies). And it's all the latest versions of the programs.
>>
>> So some numbers:
>> - You will need to download a bundle of 4 chunks (I will put all
>> on
>> my website; I think the licence for TeX/METAFONT allows thie):
>>
>> 1) Donald E. Knuth's sources: all the programs; the
>> sources for
>> the Computer Modern Typefaces and the man pages (roff) I
>> have
>> found here and there or reconstructed.
>> => < 6 Mb (compressed)
>>
>> 2) kertex_M: these are the tools for the _matrix_ (the
>> vulcan;
>> the node compiling; the cpu) translating from Pascal to
>> C.
>> => < 54 kb (compressed)
>>
>> 3) kertex_T: the R.I.S.K. (see below) framework for
>> building
>> TeX/METAFONT, that is the change files, the template
>> Makefiles,
>> the PASCAL-H extensions implemented as a C library. Plus
>> some
>> public domain software: dvips [it is not compiled for
>> now; it's
>> the next in the list] and some auxiliary tools (afm2tfm
>> etc.);
>> MetaPost (not included for now: next after dvips).
>> => < 0.4 Mb
>>
>> 4) The R.I.S.K. comp framework (my stuff) that is just a
>> basic
>> POSIX compliant way of configuring, compiling and
>> installing
>> software. Everything is configured via basic parameters
>> file
>> (you should not have to change something here; but it's
>> all
>> sh(1), ed(1), sed(1) and make(1)).
>> => < 125kb (compressed; the bigger par in size
>> is D.E. Knuth
>> and Silvio Levy's CWEB [not used here]
>> that I use
>> intensively).
>>
>> So the sources, it is less than 12 Mb uncompressed.
>>
>> And the sources can be (shall be) read-only so you can put them
where
>> you want.
>>
>> Space requirements for compilation : you will need about 33 Mb of
free
>> space or, at least, 12 Mb of free space if you use the
SAVE_SPACE=YES
>> option of R.I.S.K. (in this case, the intermediary products are
removed
>> whence the target is built; and when building the package, the
binaries
>> are not copied in the tarball, but moved in the tarball).
>>
>> Time: on my old AMD Athlon (686-class), 1250.16 MHz, this takes
less
>> than 2 minutes and a half...
>>
>> The resulting package is 8 Mb. But the installation will need a
little
>> more, since :
>> 1) The METAFONT plain format is compiled leading to the program
>> that
>> has the right to be called mf(1) since it passes the TRAP test.
>>
>> 2) All the Computer Modern fontes are compiled, using mf(1).
>>
>> 3) The TeX plain format is compiled leading to the program that
>> has
>> the right to be called tex(1) since it passes the TRIP test.
>>
>> Since the work is done for allowing cross-compilation, the binaries
are
>> not used on the matrix, but on the target, i.e. at installation
time.
>>
>> For the use of the stuff, I will need to put the essential in the
>> document describing the process in the following days.
>>
>> For Plan9, one question: about
 the group (since for the user it will
be
>> ignored). Which group ?
>>
>> I have decided that the stuff will be installed in:
>>
>> - /lib/kertex for machine independant stuff (the macros, but the
>> compiled fontes too). Plan9 users can "bind -a" to ``redirect''
>> what
>> will be written where they want.
>>
>> - /$objtype/bin for the binaries. (idem)
>>
>> - /$objtype/lib/kertex/tex/dump/, and
>> /$objtype/lib/kertex/mf/dump/
>> for the dump of the tables (the compiled version of the macros,
>> that
>> is loaded say when you call virtex(1) mistex(1), this is
>> virtex(1)
>> but it looks to is dump mistex.fmt to load it. The dumps are not
>> machine independant, even not program independant since they
>> depend
>> on options selected at compile time). (idem)
>>
>>
>> To give you a view of what is installed (and possibly where), here
is
>> the (generic: for Unices too) map [I need to change root:wheel to
>> variable things) :
>>
>> #========== THE MAIN DIR TREE
>> # Everything is relative (for the not man nor bin stuff) to PKGDIR
that
>> # one can set as he sees fit.
>> #
>> + d * $PKGDIR/mf root:wheel 755
>> # This is where we put Computer Modern _sources_ (parameters and
drivers
>> # METAFONT's files).
>> #
>> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/cm root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/mac root:wheel 755
>> # If you want to ``localize'' messages, look at D.E.K.'s pool
stuff.
>> #
>> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/pool root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/mf/trap root:wheel 755
>> # Since to create a METAFONT' base file, one dumps, we call it:
dump.
>> # But is is machine dependant.
>> #
>> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib root:wheel 755
>> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/mf root:wheel 755
>> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/mf/dump root:wheel 755
>>
>> + d * $PKGDIR/tex root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/tex/mac root:wheel 755
>> # If you want to ``localize'' messages, look at D.E.K.'s pool
stuff.
>> #
>> + d * $PKGDIR/tex/pool root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/tex/trip root:wheel 755
>> # Since to create a TeX' format file, one dumps, we call it: dump.
>> # But it is machine dependant.
>> #
>> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/tex root:wheel 755
>> + d * $TARGETBINDIR/lib/tex/dump root:wheel 755
>>
>> # This directory is for resulting fontes, that is tfm and gf, vf
and
>> # pk. This is used, for tfm, by TeX; for pk and t1 by dvips(1).
>> #
>> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/gf root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/vf root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/tfm root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/pk root:wheel 755
>> + d * $PKGDIR/fonts/ps root:wheel 755
>>
>> # The not roff man pages---the doc--- will be put in DOCDIR, under
a
>> # dedicated subdirectory.
>> #
>> + d * $TARGETDOCDIR/kertex root:wheel 755
>>
>> #========== WEB
>> + f $OBJDIR/web/bin1/tangle/tangle $TARGETBINDIR/tangle root:wheel
755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/tangle.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/tangle.1
root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/web/bin1/weave/weave $TARGETBINDIR/weave root:wheel 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/weave.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/weave.1
root:wheel 
>> 444
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/web.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/pooltype.1
root:wheel
>> 444
>>
>> #========== WEB auxiliaries
>> + f $OBJDIR/webware/bin1/pooltype/pooltype $TARGETBINDIR/pooltype
>> root:wheel 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/pooltype.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/pooltype.1
>> root:wheel 444
>>
>> #========== Donald E. Knuth's METAFONT.
>> #
>> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/inimf/inimf $TARGETBINDIR/inimf root:wheel 755
>> = f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/inimf/mf.pool $PKGDIR/mf/pool/mf.pool root:wheel
444
>> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/virmf/virmf $TARGETBINDIR/virmf root:wheel 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/mf.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/mf.1 root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/plain.mf $PKGDIR/mf/mac/plain.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/null.mf $PKGDIR/mf/mac/null.mf root:wheel
444
>> # TRAP stuff.
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trapman.tex $TARGETDOCDIR/kertex/trapman.tex
>> root:wheel 444
>> # The special INIMF is not installed as an normal executable.
>>
 #
>> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/trapmf/trapmf $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trapmf root:wheel
444
>> + f $OBJDIR/mf/bin1/trapmf/mf.pool $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.pool
root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/mf/sh1/trapmf/trapmf.sh $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trapmf.sh
root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.mf $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.fot $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.fot root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.log $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.log root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trapin.log $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trapin.log
root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.pl $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.pl root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/mf/trap.typ $PKGDIR/mf/trap/trap.typ root:wheel
444
>> # for GFtoDVI.
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/slant.mf $PKGDIR/mac/slant.mf root:wheel 444
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftodvi.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftodvi.1
>> root:wheel 444
>>
>> #========== METAFONT' auxiliaries
>> #
>> + f $OBJDIR/mfware/bin1/gftype/gftype $TARGETBINDIR/gftype
root:wheel 
>> 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftype.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftype.1
root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/mfware/bin1/gftodvi/gftodvi $TARGETBINDIR/gftodvi
root:wheel
>> 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftodvi.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftodvi.1
>> root:wheel 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/mfware/bin1/mft/mft $TARGETBINDIR/mft root:wheel 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/mft.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/mft.1 root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/plain.mft $PKGDIR/tex/mac/plain.mft
root:wheel 
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/cmbase.mft $PKGDIR/tex/mac/cmbase.mft
root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/mftmac.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/mftmac.tex
root:wheel
>> 444
>>
>> #========== Donald E. Knuth's Computer Modern Typefaces.
>> #
>> # The drivers.
>> #
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/accent.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/accent.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/bigacc.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/bigacc.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/bigdel.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/bigdel.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/bigop.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/bigop.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/calu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/calu.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbase.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbase.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cminch.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cminch.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/comlig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/comlig.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/csc.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/csc.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cscspu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cscspu.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/greekl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/greekl.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/greeku.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/greeku.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/itald.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/itald.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italig.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/itall.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/itall.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italms.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italms.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italp.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italp.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/italsp.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/italsp.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/mathex.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/mathex.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/mathit.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/mathit.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/mathsy.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/mathsy.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/olddig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/olddig.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/punct.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/punct.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/roman.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/roman.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romand.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romand.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romanl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romanl.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romanp.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romanp.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romanu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romanu.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romlig.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romlig.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romms.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romms.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romspl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romspl.mf root:wheel

444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romspu.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romspu.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/romsub.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/romsub.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/sym.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/sym.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/symbol.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/symbol.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/texset.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/texset.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/textit.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/textit.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/title.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/title.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/tset.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/tset.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/tsetsl.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/tsetsl.mf root:wheel
444
>> #
>> # The parameters.
>> #
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmb10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmb10.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbsy10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbsy10.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx10.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx12.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx5.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx6.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx7.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx8.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbx9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbx9.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbxsl10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbxsl10.mf
root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmbxti10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmbxti10.mf
root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmcsc10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmcsc10.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmdunh10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmdunh10.mf
root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmex10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmex10.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmex9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmex9.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmff10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmff10.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmfi10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmfi10.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmfib8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmfib8.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmitt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmitt10.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi10.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi12.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi5.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi6.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi7.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi8.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmi9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmi9.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmmib10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmmib10.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr10.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr12.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr17.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr17.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr5.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr6.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr7.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr8.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmr9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmr9.mf root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl10.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl12.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl8.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsl9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsl9.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsltt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsltt10.mf
root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss10.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss12.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss17.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss17.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss8.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmss9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmss9.mf root:w
heel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssbx10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssbx10.mf
root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssdc10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssdc10.mf
root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi10.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi12.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi17.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi17.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi8.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssi9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssi9.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssq8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssq8.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmssqi8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmssqi8.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy10.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy5.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy5.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy6.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy6.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy7.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy8.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmsy9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmsy9.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtcsc10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtcsc10.mf
root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtex10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtex10.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtex8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtex8.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtex9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtex9.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti10.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti12.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti7.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti7.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti8.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmti9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmti9.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt10.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt12.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt12.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt8.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt8.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmtt9.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmtt9.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmu10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmu10.mf root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/cm/cmvtt10.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/cmvtt10.mf root:wheel
444
>>
>> #========== Donald E. Knuth's TeX.
>> #
>> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/initex/initex $TARGETBINDIR/initex root:wheel
755
>> = f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/initex/tex.pool $PKGDIR/tex/pool/tex.pool
>> root:wheel 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/virtex/virtex $TARGETBINDIR/virtex root:wheel
755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/tex.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/tex.1 root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/plain.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/plain.tex
root:wheel 
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/hyphen.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/hyphen.tex
root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/null.tex $PKGDIR/tex/mac/null.tex root:wheel
444
>> # Plain TeX font
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/lib/manfnt.mf $PKGDIR/mf/cm/manfnt.mf root:wheel
444
>> # TRIP stuff.
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/tripman.tex $TARGETDOCDIR/kertex/tripman.tex
>> root:wheel 444
>> # The special INITEX is not installed as an normal executable.
>> #
>> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/triptex/triptex $PKGDIR/tex/trip/triptex
root:wheel
>> 755
>> + f $OBJDIR/tex/bin1/triptex/tex.pool $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.pool
>> root:wheel 755
>> + f $OBJDIR/tex/sh1/triptex/triptex.sh $PKGDIR/tex/trip/triptex.sh
>> root:wheel 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.tex $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.tex root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/tripos.tex $PKGDIR/tex/trip/tripos.tex
root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.fot $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.fot root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.log $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.log root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/tripin.log $PKGDIR/tex/trip/tripin.log
root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.pl $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.pl root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.tfm $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.tfm root:wheel
444
>> + f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/tex/trip.typ $PKGDIR/tex/trip/trip.typ root:wheel
444
>
>
>> #========== TeX' auxiliaries
>> #
>> + f $OBJDIR/texware/bin1/tftopl/tftopl $TARGETBINDIR/tftopl
root:wheel
>> 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/tftopl.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/tftopl.1
root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/texware/bin1/pltotf/pltotf $TARGETBINDIR/pltotf
root:wheel
>> 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/pltotf.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/pltotf.1
root:wheel
>> 444
>>
>> #========== FONTWARE
>> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/afm2tfm/afm2tfm $TARGETBINDIR/afm2tfm
>> root:wheel 755
>> = f $PROJECTDIR/fontware/bin1/afm2tfm/MAN
$TARGETMANDIR/man1/afm2tfm.1
>> root:wheel 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/vftovp/vftovp $TARGETBINDIR/vftovp
root:wheel
>> 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/vftovp.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/vftovp.1
root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/vptovf/vptovf $TARGETBINDIR/vptovf
root:wheel
>> 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/vptovf.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/vptovf.1
root:wheel
>> 444
>> + f $OBJDIR/fontware/bin1/gftopk/gftopk $TARGETBINDIR/gftopk
root:wheel
>> 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/gftopk.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/gftopk.1
root:wheel
>> 444
>>
>> #========== DVIWARE
>> + f $OBJDIR/dviware/bin1/dvitype/dvitype $TARGETBINDIR/dvitype
>> root:wheel 755
>> = f $KNUTH_SRC_DIR/man1/dvitype.1 $TARGETMANDIR/man1/dvitype.1
>> root:wheel 444
>>
>>
>> I think the web pages and the documentation will be online on
monday. I
>> will drop a message when done.
>> --
>> Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
>> http://www.kergis.com/ 
>> Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> santucco
>


-- 
Best regards,
santucco



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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 16:19       ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
@ 2010-04-16 16:23         ` erik quanstrom
  2010-04-16 16:47         ` Patrick Kelly
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-04-16 16:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> 2. Is C++ a problem? Not supported by Plan9?

not supported by the plan 9 compilers.

- erik



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 16:19       ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-16 16:23         ` erik quanstrom
@ 2010-04-16 16:47         ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-16 17:05           ` Jack Johnson
  2010-04-16 17:11           ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-04-16 16:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'

>From: 9fans-bounces@9fans.net [mailto:9fans-bounces@9fans.net] On Behalf Of Karljurgen Feuerherm
>Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 12:20 PM
>To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
>Subject: Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!

>1. "IFAIK"? Can't find that anywhere...
 
>2. Is C++ a problem? Not supported by Plan9?

Object-Orientation reduces static provability. May be I'm crazy, but I like it when you can prove that a program is only going to do what it was told to do.

>IFAIK, XeTeX/XeLaTeX based on C++ code.

Not all TeX solutions are though.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 16:47         ` Patrick Kelly
@ 2010-04-16 17:05           ` Jack Johnson
  2010-04-16 17:55             ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-16 17:11           ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Jack Johnson @ 2010-04-16 17:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Patrick Kelly <kameo76890@gmail.com> wrote:
> Object-Orientation reduces static provability.

True (or true enough)?

Not to engender a flame war, but my gut says there must be some
Eiffel, Smalltalk, and LISP folk out there who are big on provability,
but I can imagine that there's a case out there for saying not all OO
implementations are the same.

Is this a Gödel question? How do you prove OO reduces static provability?

I'm totally OK with a "true enough" response like the measured
complexity introduced makes it more problematic to determine static
provability (as I talk out my ass).

-Jack

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 16:47         ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-16 17:05           ` Jack Johnson
@ 2010-04-16 17:11           ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-16 17:17             ` erik quanstrom
  2010-04-16 18:10             ` Patrick Kelly
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Karljurgen Feuerherm @ 2010-04-16 17:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'

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This doesn't make much sense to me. Object-orientation in itself is simply another level of data abstraction. And for the rest, I think "provability" is more theoretical than practical, other than the most trivial programmes.

I'm beginning to get the impression (or perhaps more accurately am increasingly getting the impression) that the plan9 community is reactionary rather than progressive... not a good characteristic if one is trying to make advances in comparison with one's predecessors...

K

>>> "Patrick Kelly" kameo76890@gmail.com> 16/04/2010 12:47:03 pm >>

Object-Orientation reduces static provability. May be I'm crazy, but I like it when you can prove that a program is only going to do what it was told to do.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 17:11           ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
@ 2010-04-16 17:17             ` erik quanstrom
  2010-04-16 17:46               ` Francisco J Ballesteros
  2010-04-16 18:10             ` Patrick Kelly
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-04-16 17:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> I'm beginning to get the impression (or perhaps
> more accurately am increasingly getting the
> impression) that the plan9 community is reactionary
> rather than progressive... not a good characteristic
> if one is trying to make advances in comparison with
> one's predecessors...

i think the plan 9 community does come off as reactionary.
we tend to fight change too often to no effect or declare
things as depricated and useless when they are not.

i don't think that object-oriented design is one of these.
especially as implemented by c++.  i think limbo or
go's approach to this (regardless of what you think of the
langage) is much more sensible.  go of course, goes a little
further in what you can do with an interface.

- erik

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 17:17             ` erik quanstrom
@ 2010-04-16 17:46               ` Francisco J Ballesteros
  2010-04-16 18:10                 ` tlaronde
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Francisco J Ballesteros @ 2010-04-16 17:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

One question. Anyone tried get LaTeX on this TeX port?
What are the missing pieces to make it run on it?

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 7:17 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
>> I'm beginning to get the impression (or perhaps
>> more accurately am increasingly getting the
>> impression) that the plan9 community is reactionary
>> rather than progressive... not a good characteristic
>> if one is trying to make advances in comparison with
>> one's predecessors...
>
> i think the plan 9 community does come off as reactionary.
> we tend to fight change too often to no effect or declare
> things as depricated and useless when they are not.
>
> i don't think that object-oriented design is one of these.
> especially as implemented by c++.  i think limbo or
> go's approach to this (regardless of what you think of the
> langage) is much more sensible.  go of course, goes a little
> further in what you can do with an interface.
>
> - erik
>
>



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 17:05           ` Jack Johnson
@ 2010-04-16 17:55             ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-16 18:14               ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-04-16 17:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'

I was just speaking generally.
One of my major programming languages is Ada, and I doubt anyone would say that isn't big on provability. I've used objects a couple times, in places where they do in fact help, but those cases are, in general, not read properly. Using an object in the wrong place, which is most places, does lead to worse code. For most people, using the wrong tool for the wrong job is foolish, but for OOP lovers...

The question isn't how do you prove it does reduce static provability, but how do you prove it does not. I can cite mathematical proof that the sun revolves around the earth, but we all know that's not true. That being said, there are studies out there about using the wrong paradigm for the wrong job, objects do come up.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: 9fans-bounces@9fans.net [mailto:9fans-bounces@9fans.net] On Behalf Of Jack Johnson
> Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 1:05 PM
> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs
> Subject: Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
> 
> On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Patrick Kelly <kameo76890@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Object-Orientation reduces static provability.
> 
> True (or true enough)?
> 
> Not to engender a flame war, but my gut says there must be some Eiffel, Smalltalk, and LISP folk out there who are big on provability,
> but I can imagine that there's a case out there for saying not all OO implementations are the same.
> 
> Is this a Gödel question? How do you prove OO reduces static provability?
> 
> I'm totally OK with a "true enough" response like the measured complexity introduced makes it more problematic to determine static
> provability (as I talk out my ass).
> 
> -Jack

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 14:27     ` Alexander Sychev
  2010-04-16 16:19       ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
@ 2010-04-16 18:03       ` Joel C. Salomon
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Joel C. Salomon @ 2010-04-16 18:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Alexander Sychev <santucco@gmail.com> wrote:
> IFAIK,  XeTeX/XeLaTeX based on C++ code.

XeTeX itself is based on patches to Knuth's WEB source code for TeX.
It's the PDF-producing section (xdvipdf or some such) that's written
using a C++ library for handling PDF.

There will be the same problem with LuaTeX; I think also with pdfTeX.

—Joel Salomon

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 17:11           ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-16 17:17             ` erik quanstrom
@ 2010-04-16 18:10             ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-16 23:58               ` [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!) Corey
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-04-16 18:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'

>From: 9fans-bounces@9fans.net [mailto:9fans-bounces@9fans.net] On Behalf Of Karljurgen Feuerherm
>Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 1:11 PM
>To: 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'
>Subject: Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
>
>This doesn't make much sense to me. Object-orientation in itself is simply another level of data abstraction. And for the rest, I think "provability" is more theoretical than practical, other than the >most trivial programmes.

You are correct in saying OOP is just another type of abstraction. I would be correct in saying a hammer is just another type of tool, but would you use a hammer to repair circuitry? I would be correct in saying a nuclear missile is just another weapon, but would you use that when a gun would suffice? Was Hiroshima and Nagasaki just simple warfare?

There are proper tools for a given job. Using the correct tool is a good thing, using the wrong tool causes problems. There are places where objects are useful, yet most OOP programmers use objects everywhere. When representing non-objects as objects, problems arise.

Quite the contrary, provability is most important in the most complex programs. Math is all about proving things, be it simple or complex. If a given formulae is not provable, it's damn near useless, but when a program isn't provable, it's just shrugged off. 

>I'm beginning to get the impression (or perhaps more accurately am increasingly getting the impression) that the plan9 community is reactionary rather than progressive... not a good characteristic >if one is trying to make advances in comparison with one's predecessors...

Do not let your impression of a few people effect your view of the Plan 9 community.

Have you look at what Plan 9 has done? I would hardly go to say we are reactive. Every other system has reacted to what Plan 9 has done, not the other way around.

Communities are made up of humans, humans are complex systems. Complex systems cannot simply be labeled reactive or progressive.

I'm beginning to get the impression people love to troll Plan 9, more than they love to better computing, more than they love to learn from what Plan 9 has done, more than they love to solve problems, the whole reason behind computer science.

>K
>
>>>> "Patrick Kelly" kameo76890@gmail.com> 16/04/2010 12:47:03 pm >>
>
>Object-Orientation reduces static provability. May be I'm crazy, but I like it when you can prove that a program is only going to do what it was told to do.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 17:46               ` Francisco J Ballesteros
@ 2010-04-16 18:10                 ` tlaronde
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: tlaronde @ 2010-04-16 18:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 07:46:08PM +0200, Francisco J Ballesteros wrote:
> One question. Anyone tried get LaTeX on this TeX port?
> What are the missing pieces to make it run on it?

I will release/publish the things on Monday I think.

In theory, if LaTeX is still a set of macros, it should work with it,
following this process (it will be put in the README) :

1)
# Dump latex.tex (whether cd to the directory where latex.tex is, or
# put latex.tex in TEXINPUTS search paths):
#
cat <<EOT | initex
\input latex
\dump
EOT

2)
# Put the dump (latex.fmt) in the directory where TeX looks for
# dumps (in kerTeX : /$objtype/lib/tex/dump/).
#
mv latex.fmt /$objtype/lib/tex/dump/

3)
# Call an instance of virtex : latex, so that looking to argv[0], it
# loads the corresponding dump:
#
cd /$objtype/bin
cp virtex latex

and you will be done... as long as what LaTeX calls is found: other
macros (set env TEXINPUTS with the ':' separated directories) and TFM
(TEXFONTS).

By default, a BIG TeX is generated, that is a binary with extended size
tables and so on. If when dumping a package---say LaTeX---it moans
"capacity exceeded", I need to adjust/increase the values in the change
file.
---
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 17:55             ` Patrick Kelly
@ 2010-04-16 18:14               ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-16 18:22                 ` Joseph Stewart
  2010-04-16 18:27                 ` [9fans] TeX: hurrah! Patrick Kelly
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Karljurgen Feuerherm @ 2010-04-16 18:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1252 bytes --]

Ok--so it's agreed that it's not OO that's the problem, it's the users, then, who don't know which tool to use when. Not at all the same thing.

And to be pedantic, since you give this example, the sun does revolve around the earth, so long as you choose the earth as your point of reference... Certain points of reference are to be preferred for certain things, as you said. So OO or not, as appropriate.

K

>>> "Patrick Kelly" <kameo76890@gmail.com> 16/04/2010 1:55:50 pm >>>
I was just speaking generally.
One of my major programming languages is Ada, and I doubt anyone would say that isn't big on provability. I've used objects a couple times, in places where they do in fact help, but those cases are, in general, not read properly. Using an object in the wrong place, which is most places, does lead to worse code. For most people, using the wrong tool for the wrong job is foolish, but for OOP lovers...

The question isn't how do you prove it does reduce static provability, but how do you prove it does not. I can cite mathematical proof that the sun revolves around the earth, but we all know that's not true. That being said, there are studies out there about using the wrong paradigm for the wrong job, objects do come up.

[-- Attachment #2: HTML --]
[-- Type: text/html, Size: 1582 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 18:14               ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
@ 2010-04-16 18:22                 ` Joseph Stewart
  2010-04-16 18:37                   ` James Chapman
  2010-04-16 18:27                 ` [9fans] TeX: hurrah! Patrick Kelly
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Joseph Stewart @ 2010-04-16 18:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1646 bytes --]

Sorry to be a grouch, but can we change this thread to OO instead of the
advertised TeX:hurrah! thread?

I'm interested in the TeX news, but not so interested in the OO/language
debate that no doubt will go on for a while...

Thanks!

-joe

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 2:14 PM, Karljurgen Feuerherm <kfeuerherm@wlu.ca>wrote:

>  Ok--so it's agreed that it's not OO that's the problem, it's the users,
> then, who don't know which tool to use when. Not at all the same thing.
>
> And to be pedantic, since you give this example, the sun does revolve
> around the earth, so long as you choose the earth as your point of
> reference... Certain points of reference are to be preferred for certain
> things, as you said. So OO or not, as appropriate.
>
> K
>
> >>> "Patrick Kelly" <kameo76890@gmail.com> 16/04/2010 1:55:50 pm >>>
>
> I was just speaking generally.
> One of my major programming languages is Ada, and I doubt anyone would say
> that isn't big on provability. I've used objects a couple times, in places
> where they do in fact help, but those cases are, in general, not read
> properly. Using an object in the wrong place, which is most places, does
> lead to worse code. For most people, using the wrong tool for the wrong job
> is foolish, but for OOP lovers...
>
> The question isn't how do you prove it does reduce static provability, but
> how do you prove it does not. I can cite mathematical proof that the sun
> revolves around the earth, but we all know that's not true. That being said,
> there are studies out there about using the wrong paradigm for the wrong
> job, objects do come up.
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2174 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 18:14               ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-16 18:22                 ` Joseph Stewart
@ 2010-04-16 18:27                 ` Patrick Kelly
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-04-16 18:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'

>From: 9fans-bounces@9fans.net [mailto:9fans-bounces@9fans.net] On Behalf Of Karljurgen Feuerherm
>Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 2:15 PM
>To: 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'
>Subject: Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!

>Ok--so it's agreed that it's not OO that's the problem, it's the users, then, who don't know which tool to use when. Not at all the same thing.

No, we don't agree. I said there were places objects were useful, I never said object orientation was useful; not at all, the same thing.

You can write imperative-style code in a functional language, and you can write functional-style code in an imperative language. That does not mean you code is auto-magically imperative or functional.

>K

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 18:22                 ` Joseph Stewart
@ 2010-04-16 18:37                   ` James Chapman
  2010-04-16 18:55                     ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: James Chapman @ 2010-04-16 18:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

This page and its links maybe be interesting for understanding the
relationship between latex and tex:

http://www.tug.org/levels.html

In my area of computer science all publications are written in latex
and for a particular conference/journal a latex class or style file (I
must admit to not really knowing what the difference is) is provided
and must be adhered to. Everybody I know also used texlive which seems
to be the standard tex distribution. It used to be tetex but this is
no longer maintained.

I would be great to be able to write on plan 9 and I'm very pleased to
see the porting effort for tex.

James

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 9:22 PM, Joseph Stewart
<joseph.stewart@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry to be a grouch, but can we change this thread to OO instead of the
> advertised TeX:hurrah! thread?
> I'm interested in the TeX news, but not so interested in the OO/language
> debate that no doubt will go on for a while...
> Thanks!
> -joe
>
> On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 2:14 PM, Karljurgen Feuerherm <kfeuerherm@wlu.ca>
> wrote:
>>
>> Ok--so it's agreed that it's not OO that's the problem, it's the users,
>> then, who don't know which tool to use when. Not at all the same thing.
>>
>> And to be pedantic, since you give this example, the sun does revolve
>> around the earth, so long as you choose the earth as your point of
>> reference... Certain points of reference are to be preferred for certain
>> things, as you said. So OO or not, as appropriate.
>>
>> K
>>
>> >>> "Patrick Kelly" <kameo76890@gmail.com> 16/04/2010 1:55:50 pm >>>
>> I was just speaking generally.
>> One of my major programming languages is Ada, and I doubt anyone would say
>> that isn't big on provability. I've used objects a couple times, in places
>> where they do in fact help, but those cases are, in general, not read
>> properly. Using an object in the wrong place, which is most places, does
>> lead to worse code. For most people, using the wrong tool for the wrong job
>> is foolish, but for OOP lovers...
>>
>> The question isn't how do you prove it does reduce static provability, but
>> how do you prove it does not. I can cite mathematical proof that the sun
>> revolves around the earth, but we all know that's not true. That being said,
>> there are studies out there about using the wrong paradigm for the wrong
>> job, objects do come up.
>
>



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 18:37                   ` James Chapman
@ 2010-04-16 18:55                     ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-16 22:10                       ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Karljurgen Feuerherm @ 2010-04-16 18:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2565 bytes --]

Thanks for this.
 
And yes, indeed, a step in the right direction!
 
Best
 
K

>>> James Chapman <james@cs.ioc.ee> 16/04/2010 2:37:20 pm >>>
This page and its links maybe be interesting for understanding the
relationship between latex and tex:

http://www.tug.org/levels.html 

In my area of computer science all publications are written in latex
and for a particular conference/journal a latex class or style file (I
must admit to not really knowing what the difference is) is provided
and must be adhered to. Everybody I know also used texlive which seems
to be the standard tex distribution. It used to be tetex but this is
no longer maintained.

I would be great to be able to write on plan 9 and I'm very pleased to
see the porting effort for tex.

James

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 9:22 PM, Joseph Stewart
< joseph.stewart@gmail.com > wrote:
> Sorry to be a grouch, but can we change this thread to OO instead of the
> advertised TeX:hurrah! thread?
> I'm interested in the TeX news, but not so interested in the OO/language
> debate that no doubt will go on for a while...
> Thanks!
> -joe
>
> On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 2:14 PM, Karljurgen Feuerherm < kfeuerherm@wlu.ca >
> wrote:
>>
>> Ok--so it's agreed that it's not OO that's the problem, it's the users,
>> then, who don't know which tool to use when. Not at all the same thing.
>>
>> And to be pedantic, since you give this example, the sun does revolve
>> around the earth, so long as you choose the earth as your point of
>> reference... Certain points of reference are to be preferred for certain
>> things, as you said. So OO or not, as appropriate.
>>
>> K
>>
>> >>> "Patrick Kelly" < kameo76890@gmail.com > 16/04/2010 1:55:50 pm >>>
>> I was just speaking generally.
>> One of my major programming languages is Ada, and I doubt anyone would say
>> that isn't big on provability. I've used objects a couple times, in places
>> where they do in fact help, but those cases are, in general, not read
>> properly. Using an object in the wrong place, which is most places, does
>> lead to worse code. For most people, using the wrong tool for the wrong job
>> is foolish, but for OOP lovers...
>>
>> The question isn't how do you prove it does reduce static provability, but
>> how do you prove it does not. I can cite mathematical proof that the sun
>> revolves around the earth, but we all know that's not true. That being said,
>> there are studies out there about using the wrong paradigm for the wrong
>> job, objects do come up.
>
>



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[-- Type: text/html, Size: 3435 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 18:55                     ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
@ 2010-04-16 22:10                       ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-16 23:00                         ` Jorden M
  2010-04-18  4:24                         ` Joel C. Salomon
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Karljurgen Feuerherm @ 2010-04-16 22:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

It occurred to me that a profitable thing to do here would be to mention some things that would be nice to see in a new improved TeX... I believe bidirectional was mentioned already.

The other thing that is essential for folk like me is complete Unicode compatibility [Yes, I know. UTC has committed many sins :]

BUT: just so it's clear to everyone that I'm not just trying to get goodies on the backs of other people's hard work--I'd be more than willing to help in due course. First I have to get a Plan9 installation, though, and I need to acknowledge that I'm relatively unfamiliar with the guts of TeX at the present.

So one step at at time :)

K

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 22:10                       ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
@ 2010-04-16 23:00                         ` Jorden M
  2010-04-18  4:24                         ` Joel C. Salomon
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Jorden M @ 2010-04-16 23:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 6:10 PM, Karljurgen Feuerherm <kfeuerherm@wlu.ca> wrote:
> It occurred to me that a profitable thing to do here would be to mention some things that would be nice to see in a new improved TeX... I believe bidirectional was mentioned already.
>
> The other thing that is essential for folk like me is complete Unicode compatibility [Yes, I know. UTC has committed many sins :]

LaTeX has the inputenc package.

>
> BUT: just so it's clear to everyone that I'm not just trying to get goodies on the backs of other people's hard work--I'd be more than willing to help in due course. First I have to get a Plan9 installation, though, and I need to acknowledge that I'm relatively unfamiliar with the guts of TeX at the present.
>
> So one step at at time :)
>
> K
>
>
>
>



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-16 18:10             ` Patrick Kelly
@ 2010-04-16 23:58               ` Corey
  2010-04-16 23:58                 ` andrey mirtchovski
                                   ` (4 more replies)
  0 siblings, 5 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Corey @ 2010-04-16 23:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

The following is not a troll. (the subject is for the sake of humor only)

On Friday 16 April 2010 11:10:28 Patrick Kelly wrote:
> Have you look at what Plan 9 has done? I would hardly go to say we are
> reactive. Every other system has reacted to what Plan 9 has done, not the
> other way around.
>

However, "what Plan 9 has done"... occurred many years ago.

But what has it done _lately_?  (that's an honest question, not a
troll)

In the mean time, that horrible, over-complex, fugly bloated mess that -
according to 9fans apparently - represents the vast majority of software
(and developers)  in the world... is in fact... _hugely_ prolific, and under
constant development and experimentation: generating untold riches in
wealth in a great number of industries and constantly increasing user and
developer productivity via a rich plethora of options in programming
languages, conceptual models, applications, and higher-level abstractions.
Messy, with high levels of noise-to-signal - certainly... but absolutely,
astoundingly productive and in constant motion.

While the radically simple, perfectly sound Plan 9 continues to focus
primarily at being an IDE and file server... for C programmers... of an
obscure/alien dialect... because POSIX sucks, and UNIX sucks, and all
Standards suck, and all other languages besides C (and rc) suck, and OOP
sucks, and amateurs suck, and higher level abstractions suck, and gui buttons
and widgets suck, and keyboard shortcuts suck, and the web sucks, and larger
scale community-driven collaboration sucks... etc. etc. ad infinitum. Clean,
certainly... but in near/relative stasis as well.

When "less is more" degenerates into "nothing is better than something"
(and "get out of my yard!")...  indicates (to me) that the community involved
could possibly bring in some outside air. (I'm referring to the abstract
community - not each individual, who I'm sure all get plenty of fresh air).
It would be great if 9fans wasn't simply a place where people congregate
partially as means to get their grognard on in full effect mode  - or
alternately, if there was a place for 9fans where they could speculate
productively on greenfield ideas regarding experimental new directions that
alternative Plan 9 _based_ operating systems might be well suited towards.

But here on 9fans, even the basic process of community meta-cognition ends
in that all too familiar "flame drizzle".

To be honest, it's a shame that Plan 9 appears, for whatever reasons, to
be firmly entrenched within the context of a particular school of C systems
programming. It seems clear that Plan 9's core model has got a
helluvalot more to offer than rio + acme + kencc and friends... but if Glenda
doesn't get the chance to produce further offspring, that theory will never be
fully realized.

So as to not merely "complain", I'll venture some obvious ideas:

Perhaps a new mailing list - to act as a lightening rod for "non-canon" Plan 9
ideas, discussion and projects.

Perhaps a linguistic convention to help mitigate the dichotomy (and perpetual
conflict) that occurs between two camps of thought regarding the official
standard Plan 9 distribution. The conflict seems to arise due to differring
ideas of just what 'Plan 9' is... there appears to be an unnecessary friction
between keeping Plan 9 mostly as it _is_, and making Plan 9 something
_different_ than it currently is.

In other words, there's a battle between "Plan 9 same" and "Plan 9 different"
- as though There Can Only Be One. But if "Plan 9 different" was called, say,
Plan X instead of Plan 9... then perhaps the "Plan 9 same" folks wouldn't feel
that Plan 9 proper was in constant jeopardy of becoming polluted/diluted.

The Plan 9ers have "successfully" prevented the Plan Xers from "encroaching",
but it's the Plan Xers who are going to find new and interesting expressions
of a Plan 9 based operating system, however in order to bootstrap, the Plan
Xers need the experience and insights of the Plan 9ers... yet there's an
antagonistic conundrum that prevents the two perspectives from peering.

Is any of this even worth discussing? Or is this just another example of
"talk, talk, talk" from yet another troll who has no intention of actually
doing something productive?

Kind regards

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-16 23:58               ` [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!) Corey
@ 2010-04-16 23:58                 ` andrey mirtchovski
  2010-04-17  4:20                 ` Federico G. Benavento
                                   ` (3 subsequent siblings)
  4 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: andrey mirtchovski @ 2010-04-16 23:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

TL;DR



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-16 23:58               ` [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!) Corey
  2010-04-16 23:58                 ` andrey mirtchovski
@ 2010-04-17  4:20                 ` Federico G. Benavento
  2010-04-17  4:29                 ` lucio
                                   ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  4 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Federico G. Benavento @ 2010-04-17  4:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: corey, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

too long for me to read, could you summarize in 3 lines?

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Corey <corey@bitworthy.net> wrote:
>
> The following is not a troll. (the subject is for the sake of humor only)
>
> On Friday 16 April 2010 11:10:28 Patrick Kelly wrote:
>> Have you look at what Plan 9 has done? I would hardly go to say we are
>> reactive. Every other system has reacted to what Plan 9 has done, not the
>> other way around.
>>
>
> However, "what Plan 9 has done"... occurred many years ago.
>
> But what has it done _lately_?  (that's an honest question, not a
> troll)
>
> In the mean time, that horrible, over-complex, fugly bloated mess that -
> according to 9fans apparently - represents the vast majority of software
> (and developers)  in the world... is in fact... _hugely_ prolific, and under
> constant development and experimentation: generating untold riches in
> wealth in a great number of industries and constantly increasing user and
> developer productivity via a rich plethora of options in programming
> languages, conceptual models, applications, and higher-level abstractions.
> Messy, with high levels of noise-to-signal - certainly... but absolutely,
> astoundingly productive and in constant motion.
>
> While the radically simple, perfectly sound Plan 9 continues to focus
> primarily at being an IDE and file server... for C programmers... of an
> obscure/alien dialect... because POSIX sucks, and UNIX sucks, and all
> Standards suck, and all other languages besides C (and rc) suck, and OOP
> sucks, and amateurs suck, and higher level abstractions suck, and gui buttons
> and widgets suck, and keyboard shortcuts suck, and the web sucks, and larger
> scale community-driven collaboration sucks... etc. etc. ad infinitum. Clean,
> certainly... but in near/relative stasis as well.
>
> When "less is more" degenerates into "nothing is better than something"
> (and "get out of my yard!")...  indicates (to me) that the community involved
> could possibly bring in some outside air. (I'm referring to the abstract
> community - not each individual, who I'm sure all get plenty of fresh air).
> It would be great if 9fans wasn't simply a place where people congregate
> partially as means to get their grognard on in full effect mode  - or
> alternately, if there was a place for 9fans where they could speculate
> productively on greenfield ideas regarding experimental new directions that
> alternative Plan 9 _based_ operating systems might be well suited towards.
>
> But here on 9fans, even the basic process of community meta-cognition ends
> in that all too familiar "flame drizzle".
>
> To be honest, it's a shame that Plan 9 appears, for whatever reasons, to
> be firmly entrenched within the context of a particular school of C systems
> programming. It seems clear that Plan 9's core model has got a
> helluvalot more to offer than rio + acme + kencc and friends... but if Glenda
> doesn't get the chance to produce further offspring, that theory will never be
> fully realized.
>
> So as to not merely "complain", I'll venture some obvious ideas:
>
> Perhaps a new mailing list - to act as a lightening rod for "non-canon" Plan 9
> ideas, discussion and projects.
>
> Perhaps a linguistic convention to help mitigate the dichotomy (and perpetual
> conflict) that occurs between two camps of thought regarding the official
> standard Plan 9 distribution. The conflict seems to arise due to differring
> ideas of just what 'Plan 9' is... there appears to be an unnecessary friction
> between keeping Plan 9 mostly as it _is_, and making Plan 9 something
> _different_ than it currently is.
>
> In other words, there's a battle between "Plan 9 same" and "Plan 9 different"
> - as though There Can Only Be One. But if "Plan 9 different" was called, say,
> Plan X instead of Plan 9... then perhaps the "Plan 9 same" folks wouldn't feel
> that Plan 9 proper was in constant jeopardy of becoming polluted/diluted.
>
> The Plan 9ers have "successfully" prevented the Plan Xers from "encroaching",
> but it's the Plan Xers who are going to find new and interesting expressions
> of a Plan 9 based operating system, however in order to bootstrap, the Plan
> Xers need the experience and insights of the Plan 9ers... yet there's an
> antagonistic conundrum that prevents the two perspectives from peering.
>
> Is any of this even worth discussing? Or is this just another example of
> "talk, talk, talk" from yet another troll who has no intention of actually
> doing something productive?
>
>
> Kind regards
>
>



-- 
Federico G. Benavento



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-16 23:58               ` [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!) Corey
  2010-04-16 23:58                 ` andrey mirtchovski
  2010-04-17  4:20                 ` Federico G. Benavento
@ 2010-04-17  4:29                 ` lucio
  2010-04-17  6:49                   ` Corey
  2010-04-17 17:09                   ` Jack Johnson
  2010-04-17  7:28                 ` SHRIZZA
  2010-04-17 19:27                 ` [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!) Bakul Shah
  4 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: lucio @ 2010-04-17  4:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> Messy, with high levels of noise-to-signal - certainly... but absolutely,
> astoundingly productive and in constant motion.

In my opinion, most of the output from the Posix developers is trash.
It's the equivalent of a cancer, polluting the body with poisons.
Somewhere in the mix there will certainly be something of value, but
it is well hidden by the bulk of the production.  The few jewels are
also corrupted by the manner in which they need to be delivered,
namely the autoconf stuff.

If you consider things more objectively you will also acknowledge that
very little new is being created, but rather many old things are being
"improved" upon (regurgitated) in manners that consume more and more
computing cycles and deliver less and less performance.

Consider further the following: porting GCC/G++ to a new platform
rather than Linux is almost inconceivable, porting more and more Linux
software to a compiler suite other than GCC/G++ is equally
inconceivable.  If you can't see anything wrong with GCC's bloat, the
dead end it leads to, there is little reason to argue with you.

++L




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17  4:29                 ` lucio
@ 2010-04-17  6:49                   ` Corey
  2010-04-17  7:41                     ` lucio
                                       ` (3 more replies)
  2010-04-17 17:09                   ` Jack Johnson
  1 sibling, 4 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Corey @ 2010-04-17  6:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Friday 16 April 2010 21:29:44 lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote:
> > Messy, with high levels of noise-to-signal - certainly... but absolutely,
> > astoundingly productive and in constant motion.
>
> In my opinion, most of the output from the Posix developers is trash.
> It's the equivalent of a cancer, polluting the body with poisons.
> Somewhere in the mix there will certainly be something of value, but
> it is well hidden by the bulk of the production.  The few jewels are
> also corrupted by the manner in which they need to be delivered,
> namely the autoconf stuff.
>

Understood.  Though I don't share your opinion quite to the degree that
you expressed. Additionally, I have no desire to debate subjective
perspectives of the overall net usefulness of POSIX, let alone autoconf -
everyone, of course, has their opinions and experiences, favorable or
otherwise.

> If you consider things more objectively you will also acknowledge that
> very little new is being created, but rather many old things are being
> "improved" upon (regurgitated) in manners that consume more and more
> computing cycles and deliver less and less performance.
>

Again, I'd prefer to not to debate the ratio of good software vs. trashy
software, or to debate what's new and useful vs. merely regurgitated and
worsened. Though it's certainly a perfectly interesting topic.

> Consider further the following: porting GCC/G++ to a new platform
> rather than Linux is almost inconceivable, porting more and more Linux
> software to a compiler suite other than GCC/G++ is equally
> inconceivable.  If you can't see anything wrong with GCC's bloat, the
> dead end it leads to, there is little reason to argue with you.
>

Finally, regarding this mention of gcc - the "Plan X" in my mind's eye
would far prefer LLVM/Clang to gcc, for precisely the reasons you
point out. (I've been considering the prospect of implementing a
kencc dialect for the clang c front-end).

(I'm using "Plan X" in the sense I mentioned in the original post - i.e.
I'm _not_ suggesting that the official releases of Plan 9 proper should
introduce the platform changes under discussion. "Plan X" means:
any alternative expression of the Plan 9 operating system. Also, I'm
using the phrase "my mind's eye", in order to stress that this is all just
speculative, science-fiction)

Regarding the POSIX situation - a "Plan X" of my mind's eye is not
concerned with fighting that particular battle.

The basic wild-eyed premise, is that an alternative Plan 9 distribution
which "features" a native, more "POSIXy" approximation than APE, in
addition to a native compiler that supported a larger number of languages
and C dialects than 9c - would lead to a much more broadly comfortable
environment for a greater number of general developers and users.

The theory, is that the Plan 9 implementations of the following concepts:

* 9P
* mutable namespaces
* union directories
* ubiquitous fileservers
* transparent distributed services
* etc

... are simply - by far - much more important and practical to a greater
number of people than these other prominent Plan 9  idioms:

* radical frugal simplicity throughout the entire system
* a stance against POSIX and other standards
* a stance against alternate programming language paradigms
* a strong bias towards a particular form of user interaction with the
system (i.e. acme, rio, etc)

Peace

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-16 23:58               ` [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!) Corey
                                   ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2010-04-17  4:29                 ` lucio
@ 2010-04-17  7:28                 ` SHRIZZA
  2010-04-17 10:21                   ` Corey
  2010-04-17 19:27                 ` [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!) Bakul Shah
  4 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: SHRIZZA @ 2010-04-17  7:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Long-windedness aside, your thought process is fairly sound.

However, keep in mind that Plan 9 represents an escape from the perversion of Unix.
Is a compromise between Plan 9 and "Plan X" worth the risk of history repeating itself?



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17  6:49                   ` Corey
@ 2010-04-17  7:41                     ` lucio
  2010-04-17  9:39                       ` Corey
  2010-04-17 16:30                       ` Jack Johnson
  2010-04-17 12:06                     ` Nick Frolov
                                       ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  3 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: lucio @ 2010-04-17  7:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> ... are simply - by far - much more important and practical to a greater
> number of people than these other prominent Plan 9  idioms:
>
> * radical frugal simplicity throughout the entire system

This would remove itself as soon as the developer base increases
beyond an indeterminate critical mass.  That's precisely how Linux
grew beyond Minix.  But there is Linux already out there, so no
clarion call to developers to move to a less popular platform.  Plan 9
and NetBSD have many philosophical issues in common and both suffer
(benefit?) from a shrinking user base because populism (fashion)
rules.  Polluting Plan 9 with fashionable toys isn't going to save the
world, isn't even going to be useful to the existing Plan 9 community,
so why do you believe it should happen, rather than allow Plan 9 as it
exists, both as a philosophy and as the implementation of this
philosophy, to demonstrate that a simpler lifestyle is also
sufficient?

What do you see in a "liberated" Plan 9 that would make it superior to
the existing tools out there?  Or, to ask the same question in a
different form, why do you pick on Plan 9 to become your target
platform through unwelcome (*) transformations instead of transforming
that which is already much closer to your objectives?

(*)	"unwelcome" both because some of us believe it to be ethically
	undesirable and because the more pragmatic ones amongst us have
	not found sufficient motive to focus on them.  Take fgb, for
	example, who found cause to port curses to Plan 9, opening the
	door to many new developments: few have done much with this, what
	changes would you effect that would increase these contributions
	significantly?

> * a stance against POSIX and other standards

The stance is against polluting Plan 9 with inconsistent,
committee-defined functionalities that often contradict even common
sense.  Posix is yet another cesspool where nothing is ever removed,
no matter how foul.

> * a stance against alternate programming language paradigms

Not at all, only against extending C in a direction that has been
shown to be counter-productive.  Alef was dropped out of necessity,
Python and Perl are available, Go has been considered, Tcl was ported
moderately easily, it is only the G++ model of C++ that has been
proved intractable.  Sadly, that is what everyone is clamouring for,
so it looks like a much bigger issue than is truly the case.  The
problem here is again not of Plan 9's making, it is that the mass of
developers have no understanding of portability and therefore paint
themselves into the Linux corner.  Again, how do you propose to alter
Plan 9 to address this form of antisocial behaviour?

> * a strong bias towards a particular form of user interaction with the
> system (i.e. acme, rio, etc)

There are already two camps in Plan 9, one that uses acme, the other
uses sam and many experiences cannot be shared because of that.  Are
you sure you'd improve on this by releasing hundreds of customised
window managers for people to share even less?  How would adding emacs
as an editor improve matters, as an example?

Now, imagine that in your Plan X context somebody actually ported
Firefox: what kind of gymnastics would it take to feed the port
upstream and make sure that the next release does not destroy all the
efforts?  And what are the chances that the various extensions to
Firefox would also be ported and maintained?  Where are you going to
find the good will and resources to maintain just one of this class of
projects, nevermind the tens of thousands out there (of which GCC/G++
is one, by the way, why is it so hard to port it to Plan 9, if it is
such a portable piece of engineering?).  And, most crucially, why
would anyone offer to do that when it's already available?

Linux filled a gap by being free at the time when there was a great
demand for inexpensive and unencumbered software to match the
ridiculously low price of computer hardware.  No analogous demand
exists today that would be satisfied by the Plan X you envisage, or,
more humbly, perhaps you can show me what such a demand is.

But if the demand is, as is my case, for a simpler, easier to
maintain, easier to understand computing platform, then Plan 9 and not
your Plan X, is the answer.

++L

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17  7:41                     ` lucio
@ 2010-04-17  9:39                       ` Corey
  2010-04-17 12:20                         ` lucio
                                           ` (2 more replies)
  2010-04-17 16:30                       ` Jack Johnson
  1 sibling, 3 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Corey @ 2010-04-17  9:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans


I appreciate your time and consideration in your responses, thanks!

You made several points and asked several questions this email,
however it's difficult for me to answer them because they appear
to be put forth under the idea that "Plan X's" purpose is to natively
host common popular consumer-level, end-user applications
of various sorts under Plan 9, and/or to port gnu to Plan 9.

There also seemed to be a lingering impression that I'm
suggesting that Plan 9 proper - the official distro - should be
subject to the changes proposed by "Plan X".

However I think it's crucial that the current official Plan 9 distro
continue as it always has. And I don't personally see enough value
in the notion of gnu gcc and autotools being ported, or firefox and gtk,
etc..

I do see  value in porting LLVM/Clang, which would help enable,
for instance, a forked  and customized _subset_ of the EFL core
libraries (not the E wm), ported and running like a native Plan 9
citizen via /dev/draw instead of X.

I'm imagining an alternative Plan 9 distro that jettisons just a couple
select characteristics of the system which drastically increase the net
sum total alien'ness that tends to obfuscate and/or divert attention
away from (what I believe to be) the more important aspects of the
Plan 9 experience, such as the ones I listed previously:

* 9P
* mutable namespaces
* union directories
* ubiquitous fileservers
* transparent distributed services

Slightly more POSIX - but not total POSIX compliance - in
addition to a non-gnu compiler that supports modern standard
C dialects and other C-based languages would be an enabler
for a greater number of people hoping to apply Plan 9 concepts
under a broader and more general variety of purposes.

But even all that begins to miss the original attempted point of my
first post: the idea that perhaps it could be beneficial if there
were some means for interested Plan 9 fans to rationally discuss and
speculate on different potential expressions of Plan 9 based operating
systems.

Attempting to do so here on 9fans continues to be a traditional source
of agitation and flames, tempered with a healthy dose of shut up and
code. (that's not an accusation or scornful judgment, just a statement
of a "thing").

I thought that perhaps talking in terms of what "a 'Plan X' _might_ look
like" would be less divisive/threatening than talking in terms of what
"Plan 9 ought or ought not become".


Cheers


On Saturday 17 April 2010 00:41:19 lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote:
> > ... are simply - by far - much more important and practical to a greater
> > number of people than these other prominent Plan 9  idioms:
> >
> > * radical frugal simplicity throughout the entire system
>
> This would remove itself as soon as the developer base increases
> beyond an indeterminate critical mass.  That's precisely how Linux
> grew beyond Minix.  But there is Linux already out there, so no
> clarion call to developers to move to a less popular platform.  Plan 9
> and NetBSD have many philosophical issues in common and both suffer
> (benefit?) from a shrinking user base because populism (fashion)
> rules.  Polluting Plan 9 with fashionable toys isn't going to save the
> world, isn't even going to be useful to the existing Plan 9 community,
> so why do you believe it should happen, rather than allow Plan 9 as it
> exists, both as a philosophy and as the implementation of this
> philosophy, to demonstrate that a simpler lifestyle is also
> sufficient?
>
> What do you see in a "liberated" Plan 9 that would make it superior to
> the existing tools out there?  Or, to ask the same question in a
> different form, why do you pick on Plan 9 to become your target
> platform through unwelcome (*) transformations instead of transforming
> that which is already much closer to your objectives?
>
> (*)	"unwelcome" both because some of us believe it to be ethically
> 	undesirable and because the more pragmatic ones amongst us have
> 	not found sufficient motive to focus on them.  Take fgb, for
> 	example, who found cause to port curses to Plan 9, opening the
> 	door to many new developments: few have done much with this, what
> 	changes would you effect that would increase these contributions
> 	significantly?
>
> > * a stance against POSIX and other standards
>
> The stance is against polluting Plan 9 with inconsistent,
> committee-defined functionalities that often contradict even common
> sense.  Posix is yet another cesspool where nothing is ever removed,
> no matter how foul.
>
> > * a stance against alternate programming language paradigms
>
> Not at all, only against extending C in a direction that has been
> shown to be counter-productive.  Alef was dropped out of necessity,
> Python and Perl are available, Go has been considered, Tcl was ported
> moderately easily, it is only the G++ model of C++ that has been
> proved intractable.  Sadly, that is what everyone is clamouring for,
> so it looks like a much bigger issue than is truly the case.  The
> problem here is again not of Plan 9's making, it is that the mass of
> developers have no understanding of portability and therefore paint
> themselves into the Linux corner.  Again, how do you propose to alter
> Plan 9 to address this form of antisocial behaviour?
>
> > * a strong bias towards a particular form of user interaction with the
> > system (i.e. acme, rio, etc)
>
> There are already two camps in Plan 9, one that uses acme, the other
> uses sam and many experiences cannot be shared because of that.  Are
> you sure you'd improve on this by releasing hundreds of customised
> window managers for people to share even less?  How would adding emacs
> as an editor improve matters, as an example?
>
> Now, imagine that in your Plan X context somebody actually ported
> Firefox: what kind of gymnastics would it take to feed the port
> upstream and make sure that the next release does not destroy all the
> efforts?  And what are the chances that the various extensions to
> Firefox would also be ported and maintained?  Where are you going to
> find the good will and resources to maintain just one of this class of
> projects, nevermind the tens of thousands out there (of which GCC/G++
> is one, by the way, why is it so hard to port it to Plan 9, if it is
> such a portable piece of engineering?).  And, most crucially, why
> would anyone offer to do that when it's already available?
>
> Linux filled a gap by being free at the time when there was a great
> demand for inexpensive and unencumbered software to match the
> ridiculously low price of computer hardware.  No analogous demand
> exists today that would be satisfied by the Plan X you envisage, or,
> more humbly, perhaps you can show me what such a demand is.
>
> But if the demand is, as is my case, for a simpler, easier to
> maintain, easier to understand computing platform, then Plan 9 and not
> your Plan X, is the answer.
>
> ++L




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17  7:28                 ` SHRIZZA
@ 2010-04-17 10:21                   ` Corey
  2010-04-17 14:00                     ` erik quanstrom
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Corey @ 2010-04-17 10:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Saturday 17 April 2010 00:28:42 SHRIZZA wrote:
> Long-windedness aside, your thought process is fairly sound.
>

Sorry for the annoying verbosity.  It's difficult for me to express the
ideas more succinctly in a manner that reduces the risk of flames
or misunderstanding.

> However, keep in mind that Plan 9 represents an escape from the
> perversion of Unix.
>

That remains a valid, useful, and extremely valuable design goal.

It's imperative that the current official Plan 9 sources and distro
remain undisturbed.

> Is a compromise between Plan 9 and "Plan X" worth the risk of
> history repeating itself?
>

I realize I'm not omniscient - heck I'm not even very talented! - but
I'm not seeing how LLVM/Clang, and a little more POSIX (where
necessary to help port and 9'ify _select_ libraries) - induces a significant
risk of folks aiming to UNIX'ify (or LINUX'ify or GNU'ify) "Plan X".

The GNU/*NIX'ification of a Plan 9 based operating system just
seems to be a completely counter-productive, non-viable endeavor.
I couldn't imagine such an act of sheer pointlessness to gain much
traction.

Though I can imagine reasonable temporary stop gaps being used when
necessary, to be deprecated once the kludges in question are replaced
with their appropriately 9'ish solutions.

Cheers

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17  6:49                   ` Corey
  2010-04-17  7:41                     ` lucio
@ 2010-04-17 12:06                     ` Nick Frolov
  2010-04-17 17:06                     ` Iruata Souza
  2010-04-17 18:55                     ` Richard Miller
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Nick Frolov @ 2010-04-17 12:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: corey, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

fre 2010-04-16 klockan 23:49 -0700 skrev Corey:
> I've been considering the prospect of implementing a
> kencc dialect for the clang c front-end).

It is more practical to start with adding LLVM IR target to kencc. You
won't get Clang's source analysis/refactoring features this way, but it
is a quite straightforward task, I plan to do it as part of my GSoC
project (which is creating a C compiler for Inferno with LLVM).




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17  9:39                       ` Corey
@ 2010-04-17 12:20                         ` lucio
  2010-04-17 13:46                           ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-17 13:39                         ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-17 17:45                         ` Albert Skye
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: lucio @ 2010-04-17 12:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: corey, 9fans

> But even all that begins to miss the original attempted point of my
> first post: the idea that perhaps it could be beneficial if there
> were some means for interested Plan 9 fans to rationally discuss and
> speculate on different potential expressions of Plan 9 based operating
> systems.
>

That's called "show us the code!" around here :-)

It is frustrating to get only negative responses whenever issues like
this are raised, but you have to realise that those who agree with you
are not prepared to do the work and thus they have learnt to shut up
as they have nothing to put up.  Those who do put up, like fgb, do not
seek approval: they deliver the goods and know that they are
appreciated and utilised.

I guess that means that you ought to do the same.  To use myself as an
example, I'd be very pleased to find support for my efforts at porting
GCC to Plan 9 (yes, I have a working version, but I'm not happy with
the results), of adding ELF capabilities to the Plan 9 kernel (done
that, but testing it is a totally different kettle of fish), of
consolidating the Plan 9 native C toolchain with the fresher Go model,
then adding mips-64 to it and producing Plan 9 native or ELF code from
it all.  But it's not something I can expect anyone else to work on
with me, although a lot of work has been done by cinap and I have
learnt much from it.  These balls are all in my court: not very communal
development, but that is the spirit of Plan 9 and many believe that
Plan 9 is what it is because of this individual effort.

You (and I, even) may disagree, but history suggests that communal
development as it is known now leads to irreversible bloat.  So if you
have a brilliant idea (not some grandiose concepts with little meat)
you have to be able to deliver on it before anybody here will adopt
it.  Putting it another way, no one believes you when you claim that
there is another path out there that will lead to Eldorado.  Bring
back some gold nuggets and you'll see an immediate attitude change.

++L

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17  9:39                       ` Corey
  2010-04-17 12:20                         ` lucio
@ 2010-04-17 13:39                         ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-17 17:45                         ` Albert Skye
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-04-17 13:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: corey, 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'

> -----Original Message-----
> From: 9fans-bounces@9fans.net [mailto:9fans-bounces@9fans.net] On Behalf Of Corey
> Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 5:39 AM
> To: 9fans@9fans.net
> Subject: Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!)
> 
> 
> I appreciate your time and consideration in your responses, thanks!
> 
> You made several points and asked several questions this email, however it's difficult for me to answer them because they appear to
> be put forth under the idea that "Plan X's" purpose is to natively host common popular consumer-level, end-user applications of
> various sorts under Plan 9, and/or to port gnu to Plan 9.
> 
> There also seemed to be a lingering impression that I'm suggesting that Plan 9 proper - the official distro - should be subject to the
> changes proposed by "Plan X".
> 
> However I think it's crucial that the current official Plan 9 distro continue as it always has. And I don't personally see enough value in
> the notion of gnu gcc and autotools being ported, or firefox and gtk, etc..

I don't see any value at all. This makes me wonder why you bring up...
 
> I do see  value in porting LLVM/Clang, which would help enable, for instance, a forked  and customized _subset_ of the EFL core
> libraries (not the E wm), ported and running like a native Plan 9 citizen via /dev/draw instead of X.

Could you elaborate? While looking into the LLVM's source, several times, is mostly garbled crud (although better than GCC), and they severely over-optimize.
I also don't understand why one would choose the EFL? It's not even stable yet.

Unless my memory fails me, the EFL was in C++. I could be wrong on this though.

You're basically asking to re-write a compiler and libraries, and call them a port. I'm not sure I understand what you're thinking.

> I'm imagining an alternative Plan 9 distro that jettisons just a couple select characteristics of the system which drastically increase the
> net sum total alien'ness that tends to obfuscate and/or divert attention away from (what I believe to be) the more important aspects
> of the Plan 9 experience, such as the ones I listed previously:
>
> * 9P
> * mutable namespaces
> * union directories
> * ubiquitous fileservers
> * transparent distributed services
> 
> Slightly more POSIX - but not total POSIX compliance - in addition to a non-gnu compiler that supports modern standard C dialects and
> other C-based languages would be an enabler for a greater number of people hoping to apply Plan 9 concepts under a broader and
> more general variety of purposes.

This I don't understand at all. Why would one need a separate Plan 9 distribution? Why don't you improve APE, and write compilers for the languages you need? There is no need for a fork.
 
> But even all that begins to miss the original attempted point of my first post: the idea that perhaps it could be beneficial if there were
> some means for interested Plan 9 fans to rationally discuss and speculate on different potential expressions of Plan 9 based operating
> systems.
>
> Attempting to do so here on 9fans continues to be a traditional source of agitation and flames, tempered with a healthy dose of shut
> up and code. (that's not an accusation or scornful judgment, just a statement of a "thing").

Yes, well no one codes. It's not so much shut up, as it is, stop asking us to do it.

A good building isn't designed by slapping any good idea into it. A good bridge isn't either. Good medicine isn't created by putting any chemical that helps in. They are engineered for ideal effectiveness. Plan 9 is in many ways, the same. All we ask for, is a reason why what people want to add is a good thing. Just simple rationale.

You're a free being and free to do as you please, no one is stopping you.
 
> I thought that perhaps talking in terms of what "a 'Plan X' _might_ look like" would be less divisive/threatening than talking in terms of
> what "Plan 9 ought or ought not become".
> 
> 
> Cheers





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17 12:20                         ` lucio
@ 2010-04-17 13:46                           ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-17 14:02                             ` lucio
  2010-04-17 14:19                             ` Patrick Kelly
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Karljurgen Feuerherm @ 2010-04-17 13:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On the other hand: doesn't individual development suffers from at least two problems?

(1) lack of a common vision leading to potentially widely divergent and incompatible solutions
(2) lack of sufficient energy (manpower etc.) behind any given project development to make any real headway.

Presumably there's a happy medium between supreme bloat and minimalism?

K

>>> <lucio@proxima.alt.za> 17/04/2010 8:20:59 am >>>

You (and I, even) may disagree, but history suggests that communal
development as it is known now leads to irreversible bloat.  So if you
have a brilliant idea (not some grandiose concepts with little meat)
you have to be able to deliver on it before anybody here will adopt
it.  Putting it another way, no one believes you when you claim that
there is another path out there that will lead to Eldorado.  Bring
back some gold nuggets and you'll see an immediate attitude change.

++L

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17 10:21                   ` Corey
@ 2010-04-17 14:00                     ` erik quanstrom
  2010-04-18 19:26                       ` [9fans] Mars Needs Women Corey
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-04-17 14:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: corey, 9fans

> It's imperative that the current official Plan 9 sources and distro
> remain undisturbed.

okay.  it may not be your intention, but now you're trolling.
you complained that the official sources were stagnant in
your opening salvo.  now you're arguing the opposite.  hard
to take this completely seriously.

> ... are simply - by far - much more important and practical to a greater
> number of people than these other prominent Plan 9  idioms:
>
> * radical frugal simplicity throughout the entire system

i think you have the ideology wrong.  from simplicity springs
forth 9p, etc.  without the frugal design none of the people who
use plan 9/inferno professionally would have any interest in plan 9.
simplicity is the key.

> * a stance against POSIX and other standards

what's your justification for this opinion?  plan 9 supports
many standards.  off the top of my head: icmp, bootp (pxe),
dhcp, ip, udp, tcp, smtp, http, ftp, imap4, pop, dns, etc.

> * a stance against alternate programming language paradigms

hmm.  doesn't Aleph count?  that language is dead and gone, but
it was a quite different language than c.

surely you don't mean that the plan 9 community should accept
(or implement) all languages.

> * a strong bias towards a particular form of user interaction with the
> system (i.e. acme, rio, etc)

suggest something better.  if it doesn't exist, then implement it.
convince people that you're ideas are better.

- erik

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17 13:46                           ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
@ 2010-04-17 14:02                             ` lucio
  2010-04-17 14:19                             ` Patrick Kelly
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: lucio @ 2010-04-17 14:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> On the other hand: doesn't individual development suffers from at least two problems?
>
> (1) lack of a common vision leading to potentially widely divergent and incompatible solutions

Yes, but the products are small enough that one can bring two
incompatible strands together.  Whereas dealing with a _single_
version of GCC is a nightmare that no one wants to tackle.  So we
swallow its insanities and call them features.  More to the point, we
let ourselves become dependent on it because we imagine that there are
no alternatives.  And in fact, there aren't any, if we measure them by
the very bloat that we have become dependent on.

> (2) lack of sufficient energy (manpower etc.) behind any given project development to make any real headway.
>
We sent man on the Moon without GCC or autoconf.  It concerns me that
the number of features we seem unable to do without is growing
according to Moore's law.

> Presumably there's a happy medium between supreme bloat and minimalism?

Maybe, but there isn't a mathematical formula defining this vague grey
area.  So when making a decision, you have to pick one of two mutually
exclusive guiding principles.

++L

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17 13:46                           ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-17 14:02                             ` lucio
@ 2010-04-17 14:19                             ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-17 14:25                               ` lucio
                                                 ` (2 more replies)
  1 sibling, 3 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-04-17 14:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'

> On the other hand: doesn't individual development suffers from at least two problems?
> 
> (1) lack of a common vision leading to potentially widely divergent and incompatible solutions
> (2) lack of sufficient energy (manpower etc.) behind any given project development to make any real headway.
> 
> Presumably there's a happy medium between supreme bloat and minimalism?
> 

Look into the farm studies of Poland.

Individual work has a benefit no community work can have; honor. That product's success or failure is going to affect the image of who created it. When an individual creates a product, it has a desire to see it succeed. When a group creates a product, they have a desire to get their paychecks.

You can be right about the manpower issue. In no way could on man build a bridge, but one man can build efficient software.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17 14:19                             ` Patrick Kelly
@ 2010-04-17 14:25                               ` lucio
  2010-04-17 14:54                                 ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-17 16:30                                 ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-17 17:01                               ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-17 17:29                               ` Albert Skye
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: lucio @ 2010-04-17 14:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> You can be right about the manpower issue. In no way could on man build a bridge, but one man can build efficient software.

Even here there is room for disagreement.  Do you think a
community-designed bridge would be preferable to one designed by a
single architect?  The seminal concept of "The Bazaar and the
Cathedral" overlooks the disasters the befell cathedrals designed by
consecutive architects.

++L




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17 14:25                               ` lucio
@ 2010-04-17 14:54                                 ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-17 16:09                                   ` lucio
  2010-04-17 16:30                                 ` Patrick Kelly
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-04-17 14:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lucio, 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'

> -----Original Message-----
> From: 9fans-bounces@9fans.net [mailto:9fans-bounces@9fans.net] On Behalf Of lucio@proxima.alt.za
> Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 10:26 AM
> To: 9fans@9fans.net
> Subject: Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!)
> 
> > You can be right about the manpower issue. In no way could on man build a bridge, but one man can build efficient software.
> 
> Even here there is room for disagreement.  Do you think a community-designed bridge would be preferable to one designed by a
> single architect?  The seminal concept of "The Bazaar and the Cathedral" overlooks the disasters the befell cathedrals designed by
> consecutive architects.

Yes there is, but the disagreement in between what I wrote, and what you read. In the quoted sentence, I was talking about the building, or implementation, process. What you then began to talk about was the design process.

> ++L





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17 14:54                                 ` Patrick Kelly
@ 2010-04-17 16:09                                   ` lucio
  2010-04-17 16:26                                     ` Patrick Kelly
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: lucio @ 2010-04-17 16:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> Yes there is, but the disagreement in between what I wrote, and what you read. In the quoted sentence, I was talking about the building, or implementation, process. What you then began to talk about was the design process.

Computer programming is much more design than implementation, unless
I'm too old to keep up with new ideas and I've missed some radical
change.  The analogy of the construction of a bridge I believe is
closer to the real thing if one considers the design rather than the
implementation.  Ergo...

++L

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17 16:09                                   ` lucio
@ 2010-04-17 16:26                                     ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-17 18:01                                       ` lucio
  2010-04-19  7:15                                       ` Tim Newsham
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-04-17 16:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lucio, 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'

> -----Original Message-----
> From: 9fans-bounces@9fans.net [mailto:9fans-bounces@9fans.net] On Behalf Of lucio@proxima.alt.za
> Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 12:10 PM
> To: 9fans@9fans.net
> Subject: Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!)
> 
> > Yes there is, but the disagreement in between what I wrote, and what you read. In the quoted sentence, I was talking about the
> > building, or implementation, process. What you then began to talk about was the design process.
> 
> Computer programming is much more design than implementation, unless I'm too old to keep up with new ideas and I've missed
> some radical change.  The analogy of the construction of a bridge I believe is closer to the real thing if one considers the design rather
> than the implementation.  Ergo...

Never said it wasn't. But you insisted on finding a part of what I said that you could troll, and began to troll.
You have repetitively ignored the heart of my e-mails, and even ignored chunks of what I've said just to criticize me.

I discussed design, and you ignored it. When I brought up implementation, you considered it as design.

Unless you have something constructive to say, rather than make up some fantastic problem in what I say, I'm done here.
 
> ++L





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17 14:25                               ` lucio
  2010-04-17 14:54                                 ` Patrick Kelly
@ 2010-04-17 16:30                                 ` Patrick Kelly
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-04-17 16:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

> > > You can be right about the manpower issue. In no way could on man build a bridge, but one man can build efficient software.
> >
> > Even here there is room for disagreement.  Do you think a
> > community-designed bridge would be preferable to one designed by a
> > single architect?  The seminal concept of "The Bazaar and the Cathedral" overlooks the disasters the befell cathedrals designed by
> consecutive architects.
> 
> Yes there is, but the disagreement in between what I wrote, and what you read. In the quoted sentence, I was talking about the
> building, or implementation, process. What you then began to talk about was the design process.

Sorry, that got a little more heated than I meant it to be.

> > ++L





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17  7:41                     ` lucio
  2010-04-17  9:39                       ` Corey
@ 2010-04-17 16:30                       ` Jack Johnson
  2010-04-17 17:41                         ` lucio
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Jack Johnson @ 2010-04-17 16:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 11:41 PM,  <lucio@proxima.alt.za> wrote:
> Polluting Plan 9 with fashionable toys isn't going to save the
> world, isn't even going to be useful to the existing Plan 9 community,
> so why do you believe it should happen, rather than allow Plan 9 as it
> exists, both as a philosophy and as the implementation of this
> philosophy, to demonstrate that a simpler lifestyle is also
> sufficient?

The image this brought to mind was Buddhism. Would Buddhism be better
if it were infused with Evangelism?  Doubtful.

The next time I say, "Not to engender a flame war," please kick me off
the list, please.

-Jack



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17 14:19                             ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-17 14:25                               ` lucio
@ 2010-04-17 17:01                               ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-17 17:46                                 ` lucio
  2010-04-17 17:29                               ` Albert Skye
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Karljurgen Feuerherm @ 2010-04-17 17:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'

I struggle with this. Groups can do things and have honour. And groups often do things without paycheques. I remember a group effort to implement Tiny C for microcomputers in the late 70s... it was a group effort and was plenty honourable...

>>> "Patrick Kelly" <kameo76890@gmail.com> 17/04/2010 10:19:40 am >>>

Individual work has a benefit no community work can have; honor. That product's success or failure is going to affect the image of who created it. When an individual creates a product, it has a desire to see it succeed. When a group creates a product, they have a desire to get their paychecks.

You can be right about the manpower issue. In no way could on man build a bridge, but one man can build efficient software.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17  6:49                   ` Corey
  2010-04-17  7:41                     ` lucio
  2010-04-17 12:06                     ` Nick Frolov
@ 2010-04-17 17:06                     ` Iruata Souza
  2010-04-18 19:45                       ` Corey
  2010-04-17 18:55                     ` Richard Miller
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Iruata Souza @ 2010-04-17 17:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: corey, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 3:49 AM, Corey <corey@bitworthy.net> wrote:
> On Friday 16 April 2010 21:29:44 lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote:
>> > Messy, with high levels of noise-to-signal - certainly... but absolutely,
>> > astoundingly productive and in constant motion.
>>
>> In my opinion, most of the output from the Posix developers is trash.
>> It's the equivalent of a cancer, polluting the body with poisons.
>> Somewhere in the mix there will certainly be something of value, but
>> it is well hidden by the bulk of the production.  The few jewels are
>> also corrupted by the manner in which they need to be delivered,
>> namely the autoconf stuff.
>>
>
> Understood.  Though I don't share your opinion quite to the degree that
> you expressed. Additionally, I have no desire to debate subjective
> perspectives of the overall net usefulness of POSIX, let alone autoconf -
> everyone, of course, has their opinions and experiences, favorable or
> otherwise.
>
>> If you consider things more objectively you will also acknowledge that
>> very little new is being created, but rather many old things are being
>> "improved" upon (regurgitated) in manners that consume more and more
>> computing cycles and deliver less and less performance.
>>
>
> Again, I'd prefer to not to debate the ratio of good software vs. trashy
> software, or to debate what's new and useful vs. merely regurgitated and
> worsened. Though it's certainly a perfectly interesting topic.
>
>> Consider further the following: porting GCC/G++ to a new platform
>> rather than Linux is almost inconceivable, porting more and more Linux
>> software to a compiler suite other than GCC/G++ is equally
>> inconceivable.  If you can't see anything wrong with GCC's bloat, the
>> dead end it leads to, there is little reason to argue with you.
>>
>
> Finally, regarding this mention of gcc - the "Plan X" in my mind's eye
> would far prefer LLVM/Clang to gcc, for precisely the reasons you
> point out. (I've been considering the prospect of implementing a
> kencc dialect for the clang c front-end).
>
> (I'm using "Plan X" in the sense I mentioned in the original post - i.e.
> I'm _not_ suggesting that the official releases of Plan 9 proper should
> introduce the platform changes under discussion. "Plan X" means:
> any alternative expression of the Plan 9 operating system. Also, I'm
> using the phrase "my mind's eye", in order to stress that this is all just
> speculative, science-fiction)
>
> Regarding the POSIX situation - a "Plan X" of my mind's eye is not
> concerned with fighting that particular battle.
>
> The basic wild-eyed premise, is that an alternative Plan 9 distribution
> which "features" a native, more "POSIXy" approximation than APE, in
> addition to a native compiler that supported a larger number of languages
> and C dialects than 9c - would lead to a much more broadly comfortable
> environment for a greater number of general developers and users.
>
> The theory, is that the Plan 9 implementations of the following concepts:
>
> * 9P
> * mutable namespaces
> * union directories
> * ubiquitous fileservers
> * transparent distributed services
> * etc
>
> ... are simply - by far - much more important and practical to a greater
> number of people than these other prominent Plan 9  idioms:
>
> * radical frugal simplicity throughout the entire system
> * a stance against POSIX and other standards
> * a stance against alternate programming language paradigms
> * a strong bias towards a particular form of user interaction with the
> system (i.e. acme, rio, etc)
>
>
> Peace
>
>
>
>

still too long.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17  4:29                 ` lucio
  2010-04-17  6:49                   ` Corey
@ 2010-04-17 17:09                   ` Jack Johnson
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Jack Johnson @ 2010-04-17 17:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 8:29 PM,  <lucio@proxima.alt.za> wrote:
> very little new is being created, but rather many old things are being
> "improved" upon (regurgitated) in manners that consume more and more
> computing cycles and deliver less and less performance.

I think this is an important observation.

When I saw Rob's presentation on concurrency and message passing in
Newsqueak, the meat of the message that stuck in my brain was hey,
there are easier ways to do a lot of the stuff we're already doing.
When you look at the infrastructure to provide D-Bus vs what D-Bus
actually does, there is a huge opportunity cost to implement D-Bus if
that infrastructure does not already exist.  Conversely, if you wanted
to implement its features from scratch on, let's say, a non-UNIXlike
system with no GCC port, why on earth would anyone import the
infrastructure just for that service?

The shared infrastructure of the GCC-bound OSes do provide certain
heritage and growth benefits to those systems at certain costs.  I
think the Plan 9 community is one of the few development communities
that questions the costs of suggested growth.  It has always struck me
a more deliberate act of change rather than an adaptation to change,
and the pace that it provides also has its own costs and benefits.

Do I like EFL? Absolutely. Are there EFL concepts and techniques that
Plan 9 could benefit from? Probably. Do we need to import the
infrastructure to import EFL to benefit from that mindshare? Probably
not.

I'm naively hoping Go will eventually take us to some future middle
ground where folks can dabble in a shared sandbox of sanity from both
sides of the fence.

-Jack

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17 14:19                             ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-17 14:25                               ` lucio
  2010-04-17 17:01                               ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
@ 2010-04-17 17:29                               ` Albert Skye
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Albert Skye @ 2010-04-17 17:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

> Individual work has a benefit no community work can have; honor. That
> product's success or failure is going to affect the image of who
> created it. When an individual creates a product, it has a desire to
> see it succeed. When a group creates a product, they have a desire to
> get their paychecks.

Human activity is prone to many problems, individually and collectively, and likewise many potentials remain available to each (and both).

Although it may be unusual, it is possible for individuals to cooperate in synergistic union, operating as a metaorganism, as it were. The making of music is one example.

Useful: empathy, communication, cooperation.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17 16:30                       ` Jack Johnson
@ 2010-04-17 17:41                         ` lucio
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: lucio @ 2010-04-17 17:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> The image this brought to mind was Buddhism. Would Buddhism be better
> if it were infused with Evangelism?  Doubtful.

As a very young Roman Catholic, I was quite taken by evangelism, I
still have embarrassing memories of shedding a tear for a missionary
amongst the lepers contracting leprosy himself.  Today, I fail to see
_any_ reason why a faith principle should even be _allowed_ to
evangelise, nevermind that if it had any value it would be embraced
automatically.

I have the same problem with Plan 9.  If the world wanted to see value
in it, it would look harder than the resistance to popularisation that
has defined Plan 9 development since 1995 when I first encountered it.
By the same token, I don't expect others to provide the services I
would find useful, even when I believe that what I would benefit from
would be of general use to the community.

Most new arrivals here fail to see that simply because Plan 9 isn't
fashionable, there just isn't an infinite number of monkeys generating
an infinite number of programs, some of which may even turn out handy.
I miss some of these exceptional developments myself, but I'm not
prepared to sacrifice the largely disciplined nature of Plan 9 to the
largely undisciplined desires of the bazaar, by whatever name it may
go.  It's also a genie that won't go back in the bottle, and that
ought to be cause to be really careful.

What does get iritating is that yes, one could drop any resistance to
change, but none of the objectives would be attained: Plan 9 would not
be any more popular - Linux is still going to be streets ahead in
popularity; the base of available programs wouldn't grow at any speed,
because we'd still need someone to make the autoconf tools, GCC, G++
and BASH work under Plan 9, and that is no small task, specially if
you include the resistance on the other side to accept Plan 9-oriented
adjustments to their code.

Reality is, Plan 9 is not a better Unix or a better Linux, it is
itself.  If you want something else, feel free to adopt Plan 9 as your
foundation, but don't expect anyone here to follow you.  Some may, but
you can be certain with only the slightest shadow of doubt that no one
here is going to _lead_ you where you think Plan 9 ought to be going.
You'll have to be the path finder in that exercise.

And if you haven't quite understood the implications, basically the
Plan 9 community isn't going to put any effort in making Plan 9 more
palatable to those who miss the features they have grown addicted to
on other platforms: we're not going to do the work you wish done,
consciously or subconsciously, on your behalf.  You know it's too big
a job, we know it's too big a job.  Difference is, we don't want to do
it while you think it may just happen if you can convince us it's for
the greater good.  That's where faith comes in and where logic walks
out.

++L

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17  9:39                       ` Corey
  2010-04-17 12:20                         ` lucio
  2010-04-17 13:39                         ` Patrick Kelly
@ 2010-04-17 17:45                         ` Albert Skye
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Albert Skye @ 2010-04-17 17:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: corey, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

> Attempting to [discuss and speculate on different potential expressions
> of Plan 9] here on 9fans continues to be a traditional source
> of agitation and flames, tempered with a healthy dose of shut up and
> code.

As it appears to me, this mailing list does tolerate such discussion, and I find the criticism to be generally useful.

As for action rather than words, indeed. In any case, this discussion (and others) might become more useful by concentrating on illustrating useful ideas, rather than reinforcing perceived problems. So, tell us more of these women.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17 17:01                               ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
@ 2010-04-17 17:46                                 ` lucio
  2010-04-17 17:58                                   ` lucio
  2010-04-17 18:33                                   ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: lucio @ 2010-04-17 17:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> I struggle with this. Groups can do things and have honour. And groups often do things without paycheques. I remember a group effort to implement Tiny C for microcomputers in the late 70s... it was a group effort and was plenty honourable...

There will always be exceptions.  Also, eadership can give a group an
identity very similar to individuality and I suspect this merely
confirms the statement you are commenting on.

And then there is the sheer size of groups and the competing interests
within any group, growing as the group grows.

++L




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17 17:46                                 ` lucio
@ 2010-04-17 17:58                                   ` lucio
  2010-04-17 18:33                                   ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: lucio @ 2010-04-17 17:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lucio, 9fans

> There will always be exceptions.  Also, eadership can give a group an

Oops, where did the "l" in leadership go?

++L




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17 16:26                                     ` Patrick Kelly
@ 2010-04-17 18:01                                       ` lucio
  2010-04-17 18:26                                         ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-19  7:15                                       ` Tim Newsham
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: lucio @ 2010-04-17 18:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> You have repetitively ignored the heart of my e-mails, and even ignored chunks of what I've said just to criticize me.

Sorry, knee-jerk response.  If I disagree with what you say, I'm much
more likely to include it and criticise it than to ignore it.  And I
see little value (to the community) in merely stating that I agree
with you on something, as was the case with the first half of your
message.  So don't shoot from the hip, I do believe that the term
"friendly fire" is an oxymoron when a bullet strikes me.

++L

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17 18:01                                       ` lucio
@ 2010-04-17 18:26                                         ` Patrick Kelly
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-04-17 18:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lucio, 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'

> -----Original Message-----
> From: 9fans-bounces@9fans.net [mailto:9fans-bounces@9fans.net] On Behalf Of lucio@proxima.alt.za
> Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 2:02 PM
> To: 9fans@9fans.net
> Subject: Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!)
> 
> > You have repetitively ignored the heart of my e-mails, and even ignored chunks of what I've said just to criticize me.
> 
> Sorry, knee-jerk response.  If I disagree with what you say, I'm much more likely to include it and criticise it than to ignore it.  And I see
> little value (to the community) in merely stating that I agree with you on something, as was the case with the first half of your
> message.  So don't shoot from the hip, I do believe that the term "friendly fire" is an oxymoron when a bullet strikes me.

Yeah, this whole thing got a little out of hand.

I was mad, not for the disagreement, but for misinterpreting what was (at least I thought) a clear statement. I tend to get that way; it's a bit of a pain.
At any rate, you are right in saying no good comes from "shooting" you. I need to learn to save ammo for the true trolls ^^.

Sorry about all this.
 
> ++L





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17 17:46                                 ` lucio
  2010-04-17 17:58                                   ` lucio
@ 2010-04-17 18:33                                   ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Karljurgen Feuerherm @ 2010-04-17 18:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Alright. Perhaps we're converging here. Small team is what I was thinking--I agree that as teams get larger they get more unmanageable and tend to produce less focused (and thus less efficient or pristine) results.

This has been a helpful discussion for me in terms of trying to get the gist of the Plan9 ideology.

K
>>> <lucio@proxima.alt.za> 17/04/2010 1:46:47 pm >>>
> I struggle with this. Groups can do things and have honour. And groups often do things without paycheques. I remember a group effort to implement Tiny C for microcomputers in the late 70s... it was a group effort and was plenty honourable...

There will always be exceptions.  Also, eadership can give a group an
identity very similar to individuality and I suspect this merely
confirms the statement you are commenting on.

And then there is the sheer size of groups and the competing interests
within any group, growing as the group grows.

++L

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re:  TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17  6:49                   ` Corey
                                       ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2010-04-17 17:06                     ` Iruata Souza
@ 2010-04-17 18:55                     ` Richard Miller
  2010-04-18 16:48                       ` Federico G. Benavento
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Richard Miller @ 2010-04-17 18:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> * a stance against alternate programming language paradigms

A few seconds rummaging through /n/sources/contrib turns up:

  scheme
  ocaml
  haskell
  lua
  limbo
  linda
  pforth
  python

All these seem fairly alternate to me.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-16 23:58               ` [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!) Corey
                                   ` (3 preceding siblings ...)
  2010-04-17  7:28                 ` SHRIZZA
@ 2010-04-17 19:27                 ` Bakul Shah
  2010-04-17 21:35                   ` C H Forsyth
  4 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Bakul Shah @ 2010-04-17 19:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 16:58:00 PDT Corey <corey@bitworthy.net>  wrote:
>
> The Plan 9ers have "successfully" prevented the Plan Xers from "encroaching",
> but it's the Plan Xers who are going to find new and interesting expressions
> of a Plan 9 based operating system, however in order to bootstrap, the Plan
> Xers need the experience and insights of the Plan 9ers... yet there's an
> antagonistic conundrum that prevents the two perspectives from peering.

You are worrying about the wrong things.

If you really believe in your ideas, go ahead, create a plan
9 fork and find time to implement your ideas.  Don't let the
naysayers distract you. If people like what you're doing,
they will follow you.  It's as simple as that. This is how
for instance DragonflyBSD came about.

And by the way, you have not articulated your vision of what
you want "plan X" to be (as opposed to what you don't want it
to be).  What use cases do you have in mind that might be
better served by plan X?  Are they important enough and
different enough to warrant a fork? Then come up with a set
of positive goals and an action plan on achieving that.  Show
that you can achieve a subset on your own and you will get a
far more sympathetic response. This will be far more
satisfying than arguing about "what plan 9 should be".

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17 19:27                 ` [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!) Bakul Shah
@ 2010-04-17 21:35                   ` C H Forsyth
  2010-04-18 15:52                     ` Scott Sullivan
  2010-04-18 18:24                     ` Bakul Shah
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: C H Forsyth @ 2010-04-17 21:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

perhaps Plan 9 is just the Black Books of software?



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-16 22:10                       ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-16 23:00                         ` Jorden M
@ 2010-04-18  4:24                         ` Joel C. Salomon
  2010-04-18  7:22                           ` [9fans] C++ support [was: TeX: hurrah!] EBo
                                             ` (2 more replies)
  1 sibling, 3 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Joel C. Salomon @ 2010-04-18  4:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 6:10 PM, Karljurgen Feuerherm <kfeuerherm@wlu.ca> wrote:
> It occurred to me that a profitable thing to do here would be to mention some things that would be nice to see in a new improved TeX... I believe bidirectional was mentioned already.
>
> The other thing that is essential for folk like me is complete Unicode compatibility [Yes, I know. UTC has committed many sins :]

There are a few projects (in the TeX world) for that, primarily XeTeX
and Omega. Omega is not much in use anymore, but its ideas live on in
LuaTeX.

The lack of C++ is going to hinder efforts to port these projects to
Plan 9 as-is; and these are significant efforts, not likely to be
duplicated by 9fans.  (Perhaps the C++ library for PDF handling can be
rewritten in C, and then XeTeX & LuaTeX can be ported.  But don't
expect the projects to use the rewrite in favor of the original
libraries.)

—Joel Salomon

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* [9fans] C++ support [was:  TeX: hurrah!]
  2010-04-18  4:24                         ` Joel C. Salomon
@ 2010-04-18  7:22                           ` EBo
  2010-04-18  8:52                             ` lucio
  2010-04-18 12:45                           ` [9fans] TeX: hurrah! Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-19  8:34                           ` [9fans] C++ support [was: TeX: hurrah!] staalmannen
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: EBo @ 2010-04-18  7:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs, Joel C. Salomon

> The lack of C++ is going to hinder efforts to port these projects to
> Plan 9 as-is; and these are significant efforts, not likely to be
> duplicated by 9fans.  (Perhaps the C++ library for PDF handling can be
> rewritten in C, and then XeTeX & LuaTeX can be ported.  But don't
> expect the projects to use the rewrite in favor of the original
> libraries.)

In the spirit of offering possible useful information while not being in the
slightest bit interested in either porting a compiler or writing a converter
at this time, I had the thought "why not write a C++ to C converter" like the
old f2c I used back before g77/g95 came out.  In anticipation of another flame
drizzle, I am not reading these threads thinking that everyone is asking me to
write these things for them, nor are my contributions necessarily asking
others to develop such projects for me.  When I have written my own posts it
was intended to ask if anyone has done this, something similar, or even tried
it.  I like orienting myself a little before spending hundreds of hours --
only to find that I have reinvented the wheel.

I poked around a little and found the following info:

http://www.programmersheaven.com/mb/CandCPP/82212/82212/c++-to-c-converter/
http://cboard.cprogramming.com/c-programming/106880-there-any-up-date-cplusplus-c-converter.html

apparently LLVM can be used to convert C++ to C; I had not know that:
  http://llvm.org/docs/FAQ.html#translatecxx

I remember seeing someone interested in porting LLVM to Plan 9.  Maybe that
would help get you going.

  EBo --

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] C++ support [was:  TeX: hurrah!]
  2010-04-18  7:22                           ` [9fans] C++ support [was: TeX: hurrah!] EBo
@ 2010-04-18  8:52                             ` lucio
  2010-04-18 14:30                               ` Jorden M
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: lucio @ 2010-04-18  8:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ebo, 9fans

> I had the thought "why not write a C++ to C converter"

CFront was the original front end and it has been enhanced somewhat
since its early days.  But I believe it isn't likely to support all of
G++'s features.  You'll find it on sources:

	/n/sources/steve/cfront/

Of course, one could try to persuade C++ developers not to exceed
CFront's capabilities, but unfortunately, those are not the ways of
the world.

++L

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-18  4:24                         ` Joel C. Salomon
  2010-04-18  7:22                           ` [9fans] C++ support [was: TeX: hurrah!] EBo
@ 2010-04-18 12:45                           ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-19 12:31                             ` James Chapman
  2010-04-19  8:34                           ` [9fans] C++ support [was: TeX: hurrah!] staalmannen
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Karljurgen Feuerherm @ 2010-04-18 12:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

Hi

I'm aware of XeTeX (I had mentioned XeLaTeX in an earlier thread), and
yes, I understand one wouldn't be looking for identity with what other
platforms support. I agree that one shouldn't be looking to ape, but
rather to provide the same or more functionality in a better way.
Perhaps I'll be able to help with that in due course.

K

>>> "Joel C. Salomon" <joelcsalomon@gmail.com> 18/04/2010 12:24 am >>>

There are a few projects (in the TeX world) for that, primarily XeTeX
and Omega. Omega is not much in use anymore, but its ideas live on in
LuaTeX.

The lack of C++ is going to hinder efforts to port these projects to
Plan 9 as-is; and these are significant efforts, not likely to be
duplicated by 9fans.  (Perhaps the C++ library for PDF handling can be
rewritten in C, and then XeTeX & LuaTeX can be ported.  But don't
expect the projects to use the rewrite in favor of the original
libraries.)

—Joel Salomon

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] C++ support [was: TeX: hurrah!]
  2010-04-18  8:52                             ` lucio
@ 2010-04-18 14:30                               ` Jorden M
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Jorden M @ 2010-04-18 14:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lucio, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 4:52 AM,  <lucio@proxima.alt.za> wrote:
>> I had the thought "why not write a C++ to C converter"
>
> CFront was the original front end and it has been enhanced somewhat
> since its early days.  But I believe it isn't likely to support all of
> G++'s features.  You'll find it on sources:
>
>        /n/sources/steve/cfront/
>
> Of course, one could try to persuade C++ developers not to exceed
> CFront's capabilities, but unfortunately, those are not the ways of
> the world.
>

But we need lambda to compete with Ruby, Python, and everyone else!

Oh, and `concepts' to fix the busted generics!



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17 21:35                   ` C H Forsyth
@ 2010-04-18 15:52                     ` Scott Sullivan
  2010-04-18 20:58                       ` C H Forsyth
  2010-04-18 18:24                     ` Bakul Shah
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Scott Sullivan @ 2010-04-18 15:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On 04/17/2010 05:35 PM, C H Forsyth wrote:
> perhaps Plan 9 is just the Black Books of software?
>

Just to clarify, you do mean the TV show?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Books

--
Scott Sullivan




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17 18:55                     ` Richard Miller
@ 2010-04-18 16:48                       ` Federico G. Benavento
  2010-04-19  2:10                         ` Jack Johnson
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Federico G. Benavento @ 2010-04-18 16:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

>  scheme
>  ocaml
>  haskell
>  lua
>  limbo
>  linda
>  pforth
>  python
>
tcl
4th
bprolog
p2c (pascal 2 c)
f2c (fortran 2 c)
extra/perl which could be easily updated


-- 
Federico G. Benavento



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17 21:35                   ` C H Forsyth
  2010-04-18 15:52                     ` Scott Sullivan
@ 2010-04-18 18:24                     ` Bakul Shah
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Bakul Shah @ 2010-04-18 18:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:35:53 BST C H Forsyth <forsyth@vitanuova.com>  wrote:
> perhaps Plan 9 is just the Black Books of software?

You mean with 9fans playing the role of Bernard Black?  Could
be -- if you squint a bit.... Black Books is an anarchic place,
with piles of books, cartons of old takeouts, an odd jam
sandwich stuck to the ceiling and so on. Not an image one
associates with Plan 9! And Bernard is more Ignatius J.
Reilly than any of the 9fans (that I know of).

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-17 14:00                     ` erik quanstrom
@ 2010-04-18 19:26                       ` Corey
  2010-04-18 20:58                         ` erik quanstrom
  2010-04-19  0:10                         ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Corey @ 2010-04-18 19:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

There have been many direct responses to my posts, every
one of them has a number of good points - even when I
disagree with some of them; and (as is natural and expected)
a number of misunderstandings as well.

I can't respond to them all without spamming the list, so I'll
refrain (wouldn't have the time to adequately respond  to
everyone anyhow).

Additionally, it's all too easy for the _holistic_ context of
what I'm trying to express to become entirely vaporised
and lost to the void if I foolishly chase after every piece
of flotsam and jetsam.

I'm hoping my response to Erik's email helps clarify my
position:

On Saturday 17 April 2010 07:00:57 erik quanstrom wrote:
> > It's imperative that the current official Plan 9 sources and distro
> > remain undisturbed.
>
> okay.  it may not be your intention, but now you're trolling.
> you complained that the official sources were stagnant in
> your opening salvo.  now you're arguing the opposite.  hard
> to take this completely seriously.
>

I didn't say that the official sources were stagnant. At any rate,
that certainly was not my intended message.

Regardless, even if the sources _were_ stagnant... and even if
Plan 9 proper was used  professionally by an even _smaller_
number of developers, it would still need to continue in its
own idiom without disruption. Why?

Nemo says it well in his book:

"The system is easy to use for programmers, and is an excellent
example of a high-quality system design and software development.
Studying its code reveals how simplicity can be more effective
by contortions made by other systems."

I wasn't joking when I said it was imperative that Plan 9 continues
as it always has.  And this is the reason why I'm using the phrase
"Plan X", as a pointer used to reference any potential alternative Plan 9
based distro... to avoid the conflict resulting from folks thinking there's
any intent to pollute/dilute Plan 9 proper.

(Regarding "Plan X" - it goes something like this:

It's impossible to talk about Plan X without talking about Plan 9 -
but talking about "Plan 9" does not always mean to imply "Plan 9 'proper',
the official distribution". Unfortunately, "Plan 9" is inherently ambiguous...
thus my use of "Plan X".)

> > * radical frugal simplicity throughout the entire system
>
> i think you have the ideology wrong.  from simplicity springs
> forth 9p, etc.  without the frugal design none of the people who
> use plan 9/inferno professionally would have any interest in plan 9.
> simplicity is the key.
>

I keep saying:  Plan 9 shouldn't be affected by any given potential
expression or discussion of a "Plan X". Plan 9 will not lose any
simplicity.

Case in point: Inferno (an example of a "Plan X" in actual
existence) did not in any way threaten or obviate Plan 9.

> > * a stance against POSIX and other standards
>
> what's your justification for this opinion?  plan 9 supports
> many standards.  off the top of my head: icmp, bootp (pxe),
> dhcp, ip, udp, tcp, smtp, http, ftp, imap4, pop, dns, etc.
>

Those are a different class of standards.

Which showcases the Plan 9 bias towards systems programming: highly
critical towards many/all platform/language standards, unconcerned/laissez
faire towards networking standards. Plan 9 chose not to fight any
network protocol standards (IL not withstanding), but it _did_ choose to fight
the POSIX/C99 et. al battle.

I theorize that there's multiple niches for various Plan 9 based operating
systems where the antagonism towards programming language
standards and C dialects, among other things, is inappropriate and/or
unsuitable - or merely unnecessary.

The above theory does not in any way suggest that the current
official Plan 9 customs and idioms are inferior/inadequate or inefficient
or illogical or unsound... etc. etc..

Pointing out the benefits and beauties of one thing does not somehow
detract from the benefits and beauties of another.

> surely you don't mean that the plan 9 community should accept
> (or implement) all languages.
>

Again, I'm not talking about Plan 9. However, a "Plan X" distribution
might very well have good reason to want to internally support and
maintain a native fork of one or more specific languages and libraries
and/or toolkits, in order to suit the goals and purposes of that particular
distribution.

> > * a strong bias towards a particular form of user interaction with the
> > system (i.e. acme, rio, etc)
>
> suggest something better.  if it doesn't exist, then implement it.
> convince people that you're ideas are better.
>

What constitutes "better" is (often) far too subjective on personal
perspectives and experiences, and far too dependent on the intended
use-cases of a project. There's no way in hell I'm going to promote
any ideas I might have regarding "Plan X", as being better than
the current 9fans rendition of the Plan 9 status quo.

The idea is not to _change_ Plan 9 proper, or its culture.

The idea is to consider whether the possibility of simply creating
an _additional_ space - for collaborating on and experimenting with
alternate expressions of the Plan 9 operating system[1] - is interesting
to anyone.

_If_ the interest is there (even if from only a couple people), the next
step is to figure out how best to stake out this additional new space.

Also, it's important to stress: if this additional new space actually
emerges (via whatever means, and through the efforts of whichever
people), it is critical that it materializes under generally good (or
at least neutral) terms.

[1] - once again, to make clear:

"Plan X" := "any, and all, potential alternate expressions of the Plan 9
operating system"

(Could be alternately phrased, for example, as:  Plan * or Plan ? , etc.)

Peace

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17 17:06                     ` Iruata Souza
@ 2010-04-18 19:45                       ` Corey
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Corey @ 2010-04-18 19:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On Friday 16 April 2010 16:58:38 andrey mirtchovski wrote:
> TL;DR

On Friday 16 April 2010 21:20:15 Federico G. Benavento wrote:
> too long for me to read, could you summarize in 3 lines?

On Saturday 17 April 2010 10:06:35 Iruata Souza wrote:
> still too long.


I'm not avoiding these requests.

I'm just waiting a bit longer until something sufficiently "summarizable"
emerges from whatever I/O occurs via this thread.


Regards




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-18 15:52                     ` Scott Sullivan
@ 2010-04-18 20:58                       ` C H Forsyth
  2010-04-19  1:43                         ` Jeff Sickel
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: C H Forsyth @ 2010-04-18 20:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

>Just to clarify, you do mean the TV show?

yes, yes i do.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-18 19:26                       ` [9fans] Mars Needs Women Corey
@ 2010-04-18 20:58                         ` erik quanstrom
  2010-04-19  0:51                           ` Corey
  2010-04-19  0:10                         ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-04-18 20:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: corey, 9fans

i don't think i understand your point at all any more.  more
verbiage isn't going to solve it for me.

two small things, though:

> Regardless, even if the sources _were_ stagnant... and even if
> Plan 9 proper was used  professionally by an even _smaller_
> number of developers, it would still need to continue in its
> own idiom without disruption. Why?

plan 9 is used professionally  i work with half a dozen plan 9
professionals.  it is a logical necessity that professionals are
<= all users.

> faire towards networking standards. Plan 9 chose not to fight any
> network protocol standards (IL not withstanding), but it _did_ choose to fight
> the POSIX/C99 et. al battle.

you are mistaken.  the general form of the plan 9 c compilers was
set almost a decade before c99.  and if you look at /sys/src/cmd/cc/c99
you will see that the plan 9 compilers have moved toward c99.

your definition of "fighting standards" seems to be not adopting
what everyone else does.  seems awful limiting for a research os.

- erik

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-18 19:26                       ` [9fans] Mars Needs Women Corey
  2010-04-18 20:58                         ` erik quanstrom
@ 2010-04-19  0:10                         ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-19  3:18                           ` erik quanstrom
  2010-04-19  8:45                           ` [9fans] C, APE, Posix C H Forsyth
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Karljurgen Feuerherm @ 2010-04-19  0:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Could you (or someone) elaborate on the "C99" battle? I'm wondering whether this implies critique of the C99 standard or something else (and how this relates to C under Plan9)

Thanks

K

>>> Corey <corey@bitworthy.net> 18/04/2010 3:26 pm >>>

Plan 9 chose not to fight any
network protocol standards (IL not withstanding), but it _did_ choose to fight
the POSIX/C99 et. al battle. 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-18 20:58                         ` erik quanstrom
@ 2010-04-19  0:51                           ` Corey
  2010-04-19  1:20                             ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-19  3:33                             ` John Floren
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Corey @ 2010-04-19  0:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Sunday 18 April 2010 13:58:19 erik quanstrom wrote:
[purposefully removed context surrounding the following statement:]
<snip>
> seems awful limiting for a research os.
>

Exactly.

Plan X proposes an extension of 9 space for the experimental purpose
of promoting and supporting an additional class of research vectors using
Plan 9 technologies.

The official Plan 9 source base is used as a seed platform from which to
build one or more alternate Plan 9 based distributions, with the goal of
fulfilling a different collection of somewhat higher-level use-cases than
what Plan 9 proper is optimized towards.

Some examples of research areas and theoretical use-cases that a
Plan X project might help foster:

* Plan 9 based handheld/phone platform

* Personal home distributed network serving 9'ified general purpose
end-user applications via a clean yet contemporary gui over 9P

* a distribution focused towards increasing the ability of
developers to comfortably run a native Plan 9 installation
as their day-to-day os at their workplaces

* Plan 9 based os for iPad/WePad-like tablet devices

The initial milestone for Plan X is simply to stake out an appropriate
space somewhere that will facilitate productive collaboration and "greenfield"
exchange of ideas between interested parties in a non-hostile environment.

If it languishes, so be it - the experiment would then be considered DOA -
but at least the space will be there for potential future collaboration: the
catalyzing spark of new communities and projects are impossible to predict.

<further explanation/ideas abridged, to prevent "TLDR" responses>

Respectfully

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-19  0:51                           ` Corey
@ 2010-04-19  1:20                             ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-19  3:33                             ` John Floren
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-04-19  1:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: corey, 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'

Then let's see it happen; I'm not sure what you're waiting for.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: 9fans-bounces@9fans.net [mailto:9fans-bounces@9fans.net] On Behalf Of Corey
> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 8:51 PM
> To: 9fans@9fans.net
> Subject: Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women
> 
> On Sunday 18 April 2010 13:58:19 erik quanstrom wrote:
> [purposefully removed context surrounding the following statement:] <snip>
> > seems awful limiting for a research os.
> >
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> 
> Plan X proposes an extension of 9 space for the experimental purpose of promoting and supporting an additional class of research
> vectors using Plan 9 technologies.
> 
> The official Plan 9 source base is used as a seed platform from which to build one or more alternate Plan 9 based distributions, with the
> goal of fulfilling a different collection of somewhat higher-level use-cases than what Plan 9 proper is optimized towards.
> 
> Some examples of research areas and theoretical use-cases that a Plan X project might help foster:
> 
> * Plan 9 based handheld/phone platform
> 
> * Personal home distributed network serving 9'ified general purpose end-user applications via a clean yet contemporary gui over 9P
> 
> * a distribution focused towards increasing the ability of developers to comfortably run a native Plan 9 installation as their day-to-day
> os at their workplaces
> 
> * Plan 9 based os for iPad/WePad-like tablet devices
> 
> 
> The initial milestone for Plan X is simply to stake out an appropriate space somewhere that will facilitate productive collaboration and
> "greenfield"
> exchange of ideas between interested parties in a non-hostile environment.
> 
> If it languishes, so be it - the experiment would then be considered DOA - but at least the space will be there for potential future
> collaboration: the catalyzing spark of new communities and projects are impossible to predict.
> 
> 
> <further explanation/ideas abridged, to prevent "TLDR" responses>
> 
> 
> Respectfully




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-18 20:58                       ` C H Forsyth
@ 2010-04-19  1:43                         ` Jeff Sickel
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Jeff Sickel @ 2010-04-19  1:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On Apr 18, 2010, at 3:58 PM, C H Forsyth wrote:

>> Just to clarify, you do mean the TV show?
> 
> yes, yes i do.

Please end this thread.  Soon you'll have someone re-implementing the 'google "write in C"' lyrics and posting yet another video to you tube.

Or better yet, the reciting all of Ed Wood's work with Theremin accompaniment.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-18 16:48                       ` Federico G. Benavento
@ 2010-04-19  2:10                         ` Jack Johnson
  2010-04-19  3:21                           ` erik quanstrom
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Jack Johnson @ 2010-04-19  2:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 8:48 AM, Federico G. Benavento
<benavento@gmail.com> wrote:
> p2c (pascal 2 c)

Anyone ever peek at one of the Oberon to C compliers?  Or maybe the
Oxford stuff?

http://spivey.oriel.ox.ac.uk/corner/Oxford_Oberon-2_compiler

-Jack



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-19  0:10                         ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
@ 2010-04-19  3:18                           ` erik quanstrom
  2010-04-19 12:14                             ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-19  8:45                           ` [9fans] C, APE, Posix C H Forsyth
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-04-19  3:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> Could you (or someone) elaborate on the "C99" battle? I'm wondering whether this implies critique of the C99 standard or something else (and how this relates to C under Plan9)

ken's c compiler has some extensions.  like unnamed structures.
you don't have to use them.  i don't think that's an issue.

/sys/src/cmd/cc/c99 has a list of basic c99 features and ken's c
compiler's status wrt these new features.

- erik



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-19  2:10                         ` Jack Johnson
@ 2010-04-19  3:21                           ` erik quanstrom
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-04-19  3:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> Anyone ever peek at one of the Oberon to C compliers?  Or maybe the
> Oxford stuff?
>
> http://spivey.oriel.ox.ac.uk/corner/Oxford_Oberon-2_compiler

why not build a native compiler?  translating to c seems such
a waste.  oberon (especially wirth's current iteration) is tiny.

unfortunately, i don't think either approach would be more
useful than a c compiler for the oberon system.   too bad.  i'd
still give it a big thumbs up as a student project.

- erik

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-19  0:51                           ` Corey
  2010-04-19  1:20                             ` Patrick Kelly
@ 2010-04-19  3:33                             ` John Floren
  2010-04-19  4:46                               ` lucio
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: John Floren @ 2010-04-19  3:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: corey, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 8:51 PM, Corey <corey@bitworthy.net> wrote:
> On Sunday 18 April 2010 13:58:19 erik quanstrom wrote:
> [purposefully removed context surrounding the following statement:]
> <snip>
>> seems awful limiting for a research os.
>>
>
> Exactly.
>
>
> Plan X proposes an extension of 9 space for the experimental purpose
> of promoting and supporting an additional class of research vectors using
> Plan 9 technologies.
>
> The official Plan 9 source base is used as a seed platform from which to
> build one or more alternate Plan 9 based distributions, with the goal of
> fulfilling a different collection of somewhat higher-level use-cases than
> what Plan 9 proper is optimized towards.
>
> Some examples of research areas and theoretical use-cases that a
> Plan X project might help foster:
>
> * Plan 9 based handheld/phone platform
>
> * Personal home distributed network serving 9'ified general purpose
> end-user applications via a clean yet contemporary gui over 9P
>
> * a distribution focused towards increasing the ability of
> developers to comfortably run a native Plan 9 installation
> as their day-to-day os at their workplaces
>
> * Plan 9 based os for iPad/WePad-like tablet devices
>
>
> The initial milestone for Plan X is simply to stake out an appropriate
> space somewhere that will facilitate productive collaboration and "greenfield"
> exchange of ideas between interested parties in a non-hostile environment.
>
> If it languishes, so be it - the experiment would then be considered DOA -
> but at least the space will be there for potential future collaboration: the
> catalyzing spark of new communities and projects are impossible to predict.
>
>
> <further explanation/ideas abridged, to prevent "TLDR" responses>
>
>
> Respectfully

The examples you give don't really need a fork of Plan 9, but if you
really want to fork it just do it. You don't need permission or
anybody's blessing, but if you're looking for somebody to say "Sounds
great, where do you want me to start?" you'll probably be waiting a
long time, because nobody's going to sign up for a project backed up
by nothing but talk.

John Floren



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-19  3:33                             ` John Floren
@ 2010-04-19  4:46                               ` lucio
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: lucio @ 2010-04-19  4:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> but if you're looking for somebody to say "Sounds
> great, where do you want me to start?" you'll probably be waiting a
> long time,

I think it's more "what a great idea, I've thought about the same and
here is what I have done".  Fact is, it's all largely there in
/n/sources/contrib(*), 9vx and p9p, with a peppering of linuxemu, but
it could do with some focussed discussion and documentation.
Documentation, particularly, is not one of Plan 9's strongest
features.  For example, Nemo's two major commentaries could do with
revision(**).  And perhaps part of the Plan 9 installation should
include easy access to salient items on the wiki.

I'm assuming, based on past discussion, that many frustrated
9fans-to-be just have not had a chance to investigate the available
information.

++L

(*)	I plea for a couple of major changes to contrib myself.  And I'm
	willing to code them, but I need some direction pointers: (a) can
	we move fgb's "contrib" back-end to a different directory so as to
	reduce the volume of the portion of contrib that is not served by
	it?  and (b) can we either adopt "contrib" for the whole of the
	contrib tree or provide some other technique possibly based on
	replica to make it possible for someone like me at the tip of a
	low-speed Internet link to maintain a copy of it?

(**) Nemo, could you publish source versions of your commentaries with
	copyright notices to protect whatever I.P.  you may need to
	protect and let others try to improve on them?  Specially the 3ed
	kernel sources commentary?  CVS or equivalent would be good, or
	even "patch", if somebody (I'll do it, if there is enough
	patience) is prepared to deal with it.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!)
  2010-04-17 16:26                                     ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-17 18:01                                       ` lucio
@ 2010-04-19  7:15                                       ` Tim Newsham
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Tim Newsham @ 2010-04-19  7:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs; +Cc: lucio

> Unless you have something constructive to say, rather than make up some
> fantastic problem in what I say, I'm done here.

Yay?

Tim Newsham | www.thenewsh.com/~newsham | thenewsh.blogspot.com



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] C++ support [was: TeX: hurrah!]
  2010-04-18  4:24                         ` Joel C. Salomon
  2010-04-18  7:22                           ` [9fans] C++ support [was: TeX: hurrah!] EBo
  2010-04-18 12:45                           ` [9fans] TeX: hurrah! Karljurgen Feuerherm
@ 2010-04-19  8:34                           ` staalmannen
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: staalmannen @ 2010-04-19  8:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

http://man.cat-v.org/plan_9_contrib/1/c++

I am not sure whether this c++ support for plan9 is for real or not
because I have never seen anything about it and I do not know whether
it would be able to compile LLVM/Clang itself.... Apparently LLVM does
not use some of the "stranger" parts of C++ (see answer in LLVM-dev
thread below).

Porting C++ code via LLVM to BC and back to C on a platform supporting
C++ for later compilation on Plan9 does apparently not work.

http://groups.google.com/group/llvm-dev/browse_thread/thread/856e02bc5b106168/2ef4822397e361ec?hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&q=llvm+plan9#2ef4822397e361ec

I am personally just a layman interested in stuff so I often come with
these very stupid questions. I have seen that there are people
interested in trying to port this to Plan9 though so I guess those
(much smarter) people must have thought of a way to get out of the hen-
and-egg problem.


On 18 Apr, 09:28, e...@sandien.com (EBo) wrote:
> > The lack of C++ is going to hinder efforts to port these projects to
> > Plan 9 as-is; and these are significant efforts, not likely to be
> > duplicated by 9fans. Â (Perhaps the C++ library for PDF handling can be
> > rewritten in C, and then XeTeX & LuaTeX can be ported. Â But don't
> > expect the projects to use the rewrite in favor of the original
> > libraries.)
>
> In the spirit of offering possible useful information while not being in the
> slightest bit interested in either porting a compiler or writing a converter
> at this time, I had the thought "why not write a C++ to C converter" like the
> old f2c I used back before g77/g95 came out. Â In anticipation of another flame
> drizzle, I am not reading these threads thinking that everyone is asking me to
> write these things for them, nor are my contributions necessarily asking
> others to develop such projects for me. Â When I have written my own posts it
> was intended to ask if anyone has done this, something similar, or even tried
> it. Â I like orienting myself a little before spending hundreds of hours --
> only to find that I have reinvented the wheel.
>
> I poked around a little and found the following info:
>
> http://www.programmersheaven.com/mb/CandCPP/82212/82212/c++-to-c-conv...http://cboard.cprogramming.com/c-programming/106880-there-any-up-date...
>
> apparently LLVM can be used to convert C++ to C; I had not know that:
> Â http://llvm.org/docs/FAQ.html#translatecxx
>
> I remember seeing someone interested in porting LLVM to Plan 9. Â Maybe that
> would help get you going.
>
> Â  EBo --



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* [9fans] C, APE, Posix
  2010-04-19  0:10                         ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-19  3:18                           ` erik quanstrom
@ 2010-04-19  8:45                           ` C H Forsyth
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: C H Forsyth @ 2010-04-19  8:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

>network protocol standards (IL not withstanding), but it _did_ choose to fight
>the POSIX/C99 et. al battle.

there are several different aspects to this:
1. the language accepted by the C compiler excluding the preprocessor and #include files
2. the C standard's include files
3. POSIX interface

for (1), there are Plan 9-specific extensions (but then, there are gcc-specific extensions).
more dramatically, Plan 9's compiler has its own simple pre-processor. i think it has
helped keep the source tree relatively free of the horrible mess that cunning or clumsy
use of the C preprocessor has made of other trees.

i don't think there is currently a deliberate intent not to implement the basic C language
as described in the standard. there are one or two significant differences. notably the
compiler doesn't implement the value-preserving rules for comparisons. the rules in
standard C are fairly awful (i'm thinking particularly of the dependency on the size of values).
instead the compiler implements the older unsigned-preserving rule, if it implements
any particular rule. still, the main reason not to implement value-preserving isn't
aesthetic, but lack of time or effort on the one hand, and a slight worry that an
explicitly `silent change' in C language semantics might break existing code in subtle ways.
since most of the code has been compiled by other compilers, probably there wouldn't
be a big problem, and the work, which is finite, should be done for completeness.

for (2), one advantage of the Plan 9 #interface to libraries
is that the #include structure is straightforward and reasonable
(in the sense that one can reason about it). generally for one library (in particular
the C library <libc.h>) there's one #include that must be included.
declarations appear in exactly one #include file.
the machine-dependent and machine-independent declarations are handled cleanly.
none of those statements apply to ANSI C's stdlib/stddef/.../.../... mess.

for (2) and (3), to allow programs to be imported, there's the APE environment,
including (for (1)) options and commands to provide an ANSI-compatible C preprocessor.
the usual reason that programs are hard to import (apart from ./configure,
which doesn't actually do what it says), is that they are not ANSI/POSIX programs
but (typically) gcc programs.

so actually the problem is not that Plan 9 has an
aversion to ANSI/POSIX but that everyone else has, differently, and as far
as (1) goes, the source code is sometimes full of extensions and special attributes.
perhaps they should consider standardisation?

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-19  3:18                           ` erik quanstrom
@ 2010-04-19 12:14                             ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-25  4:20                               ` Rahul Murmuria
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Karljurgen Feuerherm @ 2010-04-19 12:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Thank-you!

K

>>> erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> 18/04/2010 11:18:39 pm >>>
> Could you (or someone) elaborate on the "C99" battle? I'm wondering whether this implies critique of the C99 standard or something else (and how this relates to C under Plan9)

ken's c compiler has some extensions.  like unnamed structures.
you don't have to use them.  i don't think that's an issue.

/sys/src/cmd/cc/c99 has a list of basic c99 features and ken's c
compiler's status wrt these new features.

- erik





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] TeX: hurrah!
  2010-04-18 12:45                           ` [9fans] TeX: hurrah! Karljurgen Feuerherm
@ 2010-04-19 12:31                             ` James Chapman
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: James Chapman @ 2010-04-19 12:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

There is also pdftex. This is part of texlive and provides pdflatex. I
think texlive and pdftex are more popular/de-facto standard but this
is only from personal experience.

Also, it would be very nice to see some performance comparison between
tex on plan9 and tex on some other platform.

Is it fast enough to use comfortably typeset large documents? E.g. how
long does it take to spit out a dvi of the errata for volume 2 of
TAOCP (http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/taocp.html)?

James

On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Karljurgen Feuerherm <kfeuerherm@wlu.ca> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I'm aware of XeTeX (I had mentioned XeLaTeX in an earlier thread), and
> yes, I understand one wouldn't be looking for identity with what other
> platforms support. I agree that one shouldn't be looking to ape, but
> rather to provide the same or more functionality in a better way.
> Perhaps I'll be able to help with that in due course.
>
> K
>
>>>> "Joel C. Salomon" <joelcsalomon@gmail.com> 18/04/2010 12:24 am >>>
>
> There are a few projects (in the TeX world) for that, primarily XeTeX
> and Omega. Omega is not much in use anymore, but its ideas live on in
> LuaTeX.
>
> The lack of C++ is going to hinder efforts to port these projects to
> Plan 9 as-is; and these are significant efforts, not likely to be
> duplicated by 9fans.  (Perhaps the C++ library for PDF handling can be
> rewritten in C, and then XeTeX & LuaTeX can be ported.  But don't
> expect the projects to use the rewrite in favor of the original
> libraries.)
>
> —Joel Salomon
>
>
>



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-19 12:14                             ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
@ 2010-04-25  4:20                               ` Rahul Murmuria
  2010-04-25  6:14                                 ` Corey
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Rahul Murmuria @ 2010-04-25  4:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

This thread is mighty old now.. but I would like to point out that the
Glendix project has been doing something quite the opposite of what
Corey wants, but solves the same problem.

http://www.glendix.org/

Imagine running the Linux kernel and all of regular GNU, with all the
Plan 9's sweetness patched in. Helps those who seek women on Mars...
:P  ... and Plan 9 continues to remain pure for the divine...
Eventually, it would make the Plan 9's tools cooler by competition and
have them used ahead of the GNU alternatives... reduce bloat over time
by eliminating existing bloated projects (gcc?) which would eventually
be deemed out-of-fashion...

Its like people watching the Woodstock or the Monsters of Rock
festival on video, in their air-conditioned living room, in company of
closest family, and parents or kids.... they get the idea and its a
welcome change for them to listen to some good stuff in comparison to
their daily dosage of Black Eyed Peas, Lil' Wayne and Britney Spears,
and yet, their lack of understanding of the awesomeness of the real
thing does not harm those who are actually there live! ...I hear some
people did try to setup tents with air-conditioners and a couch, with
Lays chips alongside on their personal table at the Woodstock grounds,
but seriously, that's sooo awkward... same as trying to have Plan 9 do
stuff people from the Muggle world want...

--
Rahul Murmuria

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-25  4:20                               ` Rahul Murmuria
@ 2010-04-25  6:14                                 ` Corey
  2010-04-25 15:22                                   ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-25 18:55                                   ` [9fans] " blstuart
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Corey @ 2010-04-25  6:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Saturday 24 April 2010 21:20:35 Rahul Murmuria wrote:
<snip>
> I would like to point out that the Glendix project has been doing
> something quite the opposite of what Corey wants,
>

... that's not a strictly accurate statement.

It infers that "what Corey wants" is to bring GNU and Linux into
Plan 9.

Which isn't true.

The goal of the "Plan X" thought experiment was to query 9fans for
others who might also be interested in collaboration and discussion
regarding new and novel uses for Plan 9 os technologies.

I think there's lot's of potential out there for Plan 9 in "Consumer Space"...
I honestly thought that I might see more folks interested in imagining
what glenda looks like outside of the research and data center[1].

9fans does not have time for such nonsense.

[1] ... and it's funny how, should glenda ever step outside the building,
apparently everyone's paranoid that in all instances, she's going to suddenly
become some sort of outlandish *nix/GNU freak-show the moment she steps
out the door

> Imagine running the Linux kernel and all of regular GNU, with all the
> Plan 9's sweetness patched in.
>

But combining GNU and Linux with Plan 9 is not at all what I'm interested in.

> Eventually, it would make the Plan 9's tools cooler by competition and
> have them used ahead of the GNU alternatives... reduce bloat over time
> by eliminating existing bloated projects (gcc?) which would eventually
> be deemed out-of-fashion...
>

Personally, I think carefully identifying, then porting/forking just a few,
_select_ pieces of software from the *nix space, then maintained natively
in an alternative Plan 9 based distribution, is a more interesting and direct
route.

Unfortunately - that means noisy discussion and collaboration amongst
people from a variety perspectives and skillsets/experience. Which is
anathema to 9fans lone-ranger aesthetics.

> but seriously, that's sooo awkward... same as trying to have Plan 9 do
> stuff people from the Muggle world want...
>

This again shows the strange misconception I keep seeing repeated here
on this list:

The notion that the world is somehow bridled with people who hope to
somehow... transmogrify Plan 9 into Linux... and that an arena of
Plan9/Linux hybrids is the only other imaginable place that Plan 9 could
possibly end up.

It's a weird phenomenon - but it appears to be an ingrained reflex of the
9fans ethos.

Cheers

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-25  6:14                                 ` Corey
@ 2010-04-25 15:22                                   ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-25 22:33                                     ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-26  2:04                                     ` [9fans] [PlanX] " Corey
  2010-04-25 18:55                                   ` [9fans] " blstuart
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-04-25 15:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: corey, 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'

> -----Original Message-----
> From: 9fans-bounces@9fans.net [mailto:9fans-bounces@9fans.net] On Behalf Of Corey
> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 2:14 AM
> To: 9fans@9fans.net
> Subject: Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women
> 
> On Saturday 24 April 2010 21:20:35 Rahul Murmuria wrote:
> <snip>
> > I would like to point out that the Glendix project has been doing
> > something quite the opposite of what Corey wants,
> >
> 
> ... that's not a strictly accurate statement.
> 
> It infers that "what Corey wants" is to bring GNU and Linux into
> Plan 9.
> 
> Which isn't true.
> 
> The goal of the "Plan X" thought experiment was to query 9fans for
> others who might also be interested in collaboration and discussion
> regarding new and novel uses for Plan 9 os technologies.

Then experiment! So far you've just gotten into philosophical arguments rather than scientific discussion.

> I think there's lot's of potential out there for Plan 9 in "Consumer Space"...
> I honestly thought that I might see more folks interested in imagining
> what glenda looks like outside of the research and data center[1].

Yes there is, so why do you need a fork? Plan 9 would and will suffice.

> 9fans does not have time for such nonsense.

I have enough time to write a complete tool chain, and develop a system that is similar to Plan 9. The difference between you and I, is that I just start working on the project and talk later; you talk first and then work when you can find enough people to minimize the work you have to do.

> 
> [1] ... and it's funny how, should glenda ever step outside the building,
> apparently everyone's paranoid that in all instances, she's going to suddenly
> become some sort of outlandish *nix/GNU freak-show the moment she steps
> out the door
> 
> 
> > Imagine running the Linux kernel and all of regular GNU, with all the
> > Plan 9's sweetness patched in.

My imagination may be a tad strange, but I see an obese chimera, currently a mixture of the gnu, penguin, and bunny. A step in the right direction isn't adding Plan 9 goodness to Linux, it's stripping the badness out; but that’s an argument best suited for Glendix people.

> But combining GNU and Linux with Plan 9 is not at all what I'm interested in.

Good.

> > Eventually, it would make the Plan 9's tools cooler by competition and
> > have them used ahead of the GNU alternatives... reduce bloat over time
> > by eliminating existing bloated projects (gcc?) which would eventually
> > be deemed out-of-fashion...
> >
> 
> Personally, I think carefully identifying, then porting/forking just a few,
> _select_ pieces of software from the *nix space, then maintained natively
> in an alternative Plan 9 based distribution, is a more interesting and direct
> route.
> 
> Unfortunately - that means noisy discussion and collaboration amongst
> people from a variety perspectives and skillsets/experience. Which is
> anathema to 9fans lone-ranger aesthetics.

Not at all an anathema, I understand what you're suggesting completely. I just feel it's foolish and you haven't proved me wrong yet.

> > but seriously, that's sooo awkward... same as trying to have Plan 9 do
> > stuff people from the Muggle world want...
> >
> 
> This again shows the strange misconception I keep seeing repeated here
> on this list:
> 
> The notion that the world is somehow bridled with people who hope to
> somehow... transmogrify Plan 9 into Linux... and that an arena of
> Plan9/Linux hybrids is the only other imaginable place that Plan 9 could
> possibly end up.

I would like to keep Plan 9 from going down the same road UNIX went down. Now one could argue that many of us are too much against that change, but so far Plan 9 has had everything needed and is still sane.

There's never been a reason people couldn't create forks or derivatives, just because we don't "like change", doesn't mean a separate code base couldn't be changed.

> It's a weird phenomenon - but it appears to be an ingrained reflex of the
> 9fans ethos.

Ethos (ἦθος) is Greek for the accustomed place; you may have meant ethikos (ἠθικός).

The way many of us treat Plan 9, is paternal. We don't want to see our baby gluttonizing on any code base she can get her hands on and we don't want her shooting up the drug that is the FSF. But we are in this amazing age where cloning is possible, so create a 'clone' and do what you please.

> 
> Cheers

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-25  6:14                                 ` Corey
  2010-04-25 15:22                                   ` Patrick Kelly
@ 2010-04-25 18:55                                   ` blstuart
  2010-04-26  1:01                                     ` Ethan Grammatikidis
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: blstuart @ 2010-04-25 18:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: corey, 9fans

> It infers that "what Corey wants" is to bring GNU and Linux into
> Plan 9.
>
> Which isn't true.

I must admit to jumping to that conclusion too easily.  I guess it's
because the most common discussions here start either with "I've
been beating my head against a wall; has anyone seen this or can
tell me what I'm doing wrong?" or "Here's a little something I whipped
up, so if you're interested grab it and play with it."  or "You guys
need to add features X, Y, and Z to Plan 9 because it's losing the
competition (presumably for the largest number of users)."  And
anything that doesn't start out like the first two does seem to
sound like it's a discussion of the third type.

> I think there's lot's of potential out there for Plan 9 in "Consumer Space"...
> I honestly thought that I might see more folks interested in imagining
> what glenda looks like outside of the research and data center[1].

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I personally find end-user
applications and experiences to be the least interesting part of
computing.  I'm only half joking when in talks or in class, I say
that computing would be a lot easier and more fun if we didn't
have to deal with users.  Also, I don't really like the things that
seem to be the most widly accepted in the consumer space.  So
for me it's a virtue that the community doesn't find popular
acceptance to be an important factor in design decisions.

> Personally, I think carefully identifying, then porting/forking just a few,
> _select_ pieces of software from the *nix space, then maintained natively
> in an alternative Plan 9 based distribution, is a more interesting and direct
> route.

Well, a few select ones have been ported over the years, ghostscript
and TeX coming to mind first.  There was even a late unlamented
X11 port.

> Unfortunately - that means noisy discussion and collaboration amongst
> people from a variety perspectives and skillsets/experience. Which is
> anathema to 9fans lone-ranger aesthetics.

I don't really understand this part.  Why does porting something or even
building an alternative distribution require discussion and collaboration?
I can certainly understand how discussion could deveop as a result of
such a thing being done, but I don't see how discussion is a prerequisite
for it.

When discussion of a more philosophical nature does happen here,
it tends to be a) the evolution of some other conversation, and b)
focused on a fairly specific question, such as "Would there be any
value in replacing the traditional system call mechanism with a
9P system call service."

Also, it's not that collaboration is unheard of in the Plan 9 and Inferno
cultures.  But part of the shared aesthetic is an appreciation for simplicty
and elegance.  One result of this is that few particular "things" (driver,
application, library, etc) are so complex as to benefit from collaboration
as it's typically viewed.

One last observation regarding the idea of discussing before doing:
A lot of us are old enough to remember the difference between the
way the ISO approached networking and the way the IETF approached
it.  At least from the outside of the process, the ISO approach certainly
seemed to be one of discuss and nail down lots of details before ever
coding where the IETF had a basic policy that without code there wasn't
a lot to discuss.  Although we can all pick at certain aspects of TCP/IP,
I think most here would say it's better than whatever part of OSI
ever became reality.  That experience tends to feed the "show us
the code" type of response that pops up frequently.

BLS

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-25 15:22                                   ` Patrick Kelly
@ 2010-04-25 22:33                                     ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
  2010-04-25 23:07                                       ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-26  2:04                                     ` [9fans] [PlanX] " Corey
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Karljurgen Feuerherm @ 2010-04-25 22:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'

>From the Oxford Encyclopedic Dictionary:

ethos. n. the characteristic spirit or attitudes of a community,
people, or system, or of a literary work, etc.

I think Corey's use of the word certainly fit that definition, which I
would hope is what most people heard... whether or not one agrees.

K

>>> "Patrick Kelly" <kameo76890@gmail.com> 25/04/2010 11:22:24 am >>>

Ethos (θος) is Greek for the accustomed place; you may have meant
ethikos (ἠθικός).

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-25 22:33                                     ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
@ 2010-04-25 23:07                                       ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-25 23:35                                         ` Alex Lee
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-04-25 23:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'

> -----Original Message-----
> From: 9fans-bounces@9fans.net [mailto:9fans-bounces@9fans.net] On Behalf Of Karljurgen Feuerherm
> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 6:33 PM
> To: 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'
> Subject: Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women
> 
> From the Oxford Encyclopedic Dictionary:
> 
> ethos. n. the characteristic spirit or attitudes of a community, people, or system, or of a literary work, etc.

Odd considering that’s the Greek definition of ethikos. I just love how the English language can't keep things straight.
Oh well, no use getting into a language debate. Thanks for pointing that out, I'll have to remember that.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-25 23:07                                       ` Patrick Kelly
@ 2010-04-25 23:35                                         ` Alex Lee
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Alex Lee @ 2010-04-25 23:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On 04/25/2010 06:07 PM, Patrick Kelly wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: 9fans-bounces@9fans.net [mailto:9fans-bounces@9fans.net] On Behalf Of Karljurgen Feuerherm
>> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 6:33 PM
>> To: 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'
>> Subject: Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women
>>
>> From the Oxford Encyclopedic Dictionary:
>>
>> ethos. n. the characteristic spirit or attitudes of a community, people, or system, or of a literary work, etc.
> 
> Odd considering that’s the Greek definition of ethikos. I just love how the English language can't keep things straight.
> Oh well, no use getting into a language debate. Thanks for pointing that out, I'll have to remember that.

I'm not saying that English doesn't often mess things up, but in this
case I think it does all right. ἦθος only means "accustomed place" in
its most literal sense. Otherwise it can mean custom, disposition,
character, etc.:
http://artflx.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.31:3:159.LSJ

ἠθικός is the adjective form (just think of other -ικός words, like
poetic or economic).

Alex
(... hoping that it is not part of the 9fans ethos to get too annoyed
but this sort of off-topic post)

-- 
  alexlee@fastmail.net

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-25 18:55                                   ` [9fans] " blstuart
@ 2010-04-26  1:01                                     ` Ethan Grammatikidis
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Ethan Grammatikidis @ 2010-04-26  1:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On 25 Apr 2010, at 19:55, blstuart@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately - that means noisy discussion and collaboration amongst
>> people from a variety perspectives and skillsets/experience. Which is
>> anathema to 9fans lone-ranger aesthetics.
>
> I don't really understand this part.  Why does porting something or
> even
> building an alternative distribution require discussion and
> collaboration?

*nods* "Discussion" and "collaboration" are required for the infinite-
number-of-monkeys approach. That's a little sharp, perhaps, but just
from watching the results of many-people, open-discussion kind of
approach I have lost all faith in it. "Too many cooks spoil the broth"
is not a new adage, and is quite as applicable to software as it was
to was to anything in the past.

I am seriously considering a fork of sorts, if what I'd like to build
won't work with Plan 9 directly, but I want to have my goals very
clear before I invite any opinion at all.

--
Simplicity does not precede complexity, but follows it. -- Alan Perlis

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* [9fans] [PlanX] Re:  Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-25 15:22                                   ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-25 22:33                                     ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
@ 2010-04-26  2:04                                     ` Corey
  2010-04-26  4:06                                       ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-26 13:06                                       ` erik quanstrom
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Corey @ 2010-04-26  2:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'

Disclaimer: If this conversation/thread is a continued annoyance, please 
at least consider the tactic of simply ignoring it - I've placed "[PlanX]" in 
the subject to make it easy for people to filter. 

Also:  [long]

On Sunday 25 April 2010 08:22:24 Patrick Kelly wrote:
> > The goal of the "Plan X" thought experiment was to query 9fans for
> > others who might also be interested in collaboration and discussion
> > regarding new and novel uses for Plan 9 os technologies.
> 
> Then experiment!
>

I _am_ experimenting!   (c8=

Silently on my own I'm engaged in the sort of ruggedly independent,
lone cowboy style research and development which defines 9fans' 
standard operating procedure. (in this instance, it involves reducing 
the Blender 2.5 codebase down to the minimal core UI/WM framework[*], 
for the purpose of prototyping a possible alternative Plan 9 user interface)

However, the "Plan X" experiment (which was intended to occur
asynchronously to my solitarily-confined efforts), _specifically_ revolves 
around the idea of attempting to churn out some discussion and collaboration
_before_ attempting to produce anything.

Digression:
Interfering with the above concept, is the communally-held 9fans axiom
that:

Talk - Action = Zero
(which is of course sometimes true)

The problem is that ++Talk does not always mean Action-- 
(hello Captain Obvious)

When a project (or potential project) requires advice and experience 
that crosses boundaries over a variety of perspectives and skillsets, a 
front-loaded collaboration period is a logical and reasonable approach.

Before anything, "Plan X" is/was conceptualized as initially bootstrapping
itself as a thinktank. 

A "thinktank" comprised of a single individual battling through the flame
drizzles of a sensitive/reactionary social environment and/or twiddling his
thumbs on a mostly empty mailing list is...suboptimal

But, so it goes - the idea hasn't so far produced more than a few interested
parties (who've all chosen to respond offlist). I'm willing to give it "the
'ol college try"... but I'm certainly not stubborn enough to continue in the
face of near total adversity. 

> So far you've just gotten into philosophical arguments
> rather than scientific discussion.
> 

The irony here is that the philosophical arguments are largely a simple result
of me attempting to carefully confront the usual battery of misunderstandings 
and assumptions and defense-mechanisms.

Despite my best efforts, I'm still seeing folks inferring or projecting the
following fallacies:

* I'm being a troll who's objective is to embroil people in arguments
* I'm being a motormouth who wants nothing more than to gab on and on
* I'm trying/hoping to change 9fans culture in my own image
* I'm trying/hoping to change Plan 9 'proper' according to my own notions
* I'm trying/hoping to convince other people to do work on my behalf

I'm doing my absolute best to make myself understood, while attempting to 
avoid unnecessary conflict and irrelevant sub-flames. 

> > I think there's lot's of potential out there for Plan 9 in "Consumer
> > Space"... I honestly thought that I might see more folks interested in
> > imagining what glenda looks like outside of the research and data
> > center[1].
> 
> Yes there is, so why do you need a fork? Plan 9 would and will suffice.
> 

I'd prefer not to narrowly frame things in terms of my own personal needs. 

"Plan X" is more about discussing potential areas of interest with others;
for the purpose of possibly identifying a common subset of software that,
if intelligently and selectively implemented, would more easily facilitate
new vectors of research and development that are currently made difficult 
or effectively impossible for most mere mortals due to missing or
inadequate/inappropriate toolchains, libraries and/or toolkits.

> I have enough time to write a complete tool chain, and develop a system
> that is similar to Plan 9.
>

That is very cool, and I'd certainly like to hear more, if you're inclined to
provide further detail.

> The difference between you and I, is that I
> just start working on the project and talk later; you talk first and then
> work when you can find enough people to minimize the work you have to do.
> 

Another digression:
I don't think that is quite what the difference between us is.

Before you start working on a project, you _think_ about the various ways 
in which you might approach and implement things, right?

If you choose not to socially brainstorm and collaborate with others before
actively engaging on the implementation of any given project - then I can
only imagine it's because you're confident that you are sufficiently equipped
with the necessary breadth and depth of skills, abilities and knowledges
needed to effectively and efficiently fulfill the range of requirements
necessary to complete your intended project.

If I was a jealous person, I'd probably feel a bit envious of your talents.

So, to get back to the point: I think the difference between you and I, is
that you have a broader and deeper spectrum of core competencies than 
myself. Clearly: you're able to produce a complete tool chain and develop 
a system that is similar to Plan 9, but more suited to your own requirements,
all by yourself.

> > > Imagine running the Linux kernel and all of regular GNU, with all the
> > > Plan 9's sweetness patched in.
> 
> My imagination may be a tad strange, but I see an obese chimera, currently
> a mixture of the gnu, penguin, and bunny. A step in the right direction
> isn't adding Plan 9 goodness to Linux, it's stripping the badness out; but
> that’s an argument best suited for Glendix people.
> 

I agree (though, not to disparage the Glendix project - I think it is a useful
additional trajectory for Plan 9 technologies ).

> > Personally, I think carefully identifying, then porting/forking just a
> > few, _select_ pieces of software from the *nix space, then maintained
> > natively in an alternative Plan 9 based distribution, is a more
> > interesting and direct route.
> > 
> > Unfortunately - that means noisy discussion and collaboration amongst
> > people from a variety perspectives and skillsets/experience. Which is
> > anathema to 9fans lone-ranger aesthetics.
> 
> Not at all an anathema, I understand what you're suggesting completely. I
> just feel it's foolish and you haven't proved me wrong yet.
> 

I strongly disagree that the idea is inherently foolish - in fact I think that
the general idea is demonstrably sound - but I simply have no motivation
or inclination to attempt to prove you wrong by debating subjective, 
personal opinions/experiences:

The only way to approximate something that could be taken as a semblance
of 'proof', would first require that some sort of "Plan X" analog actually
manifested itself - whether it was a foolish experiment in futility or not
would depend on seeing what sorts of social and technical artifacts resulted
after a reasonable measure of time.

> I would like to keep Plan 9 from going down the same road UNIX went down.
>

Understood, and agreed.

But remember: 

Plan 9 is completely independent of Plan X - though Plan X is not necessarily
independent of Plan 9.

It does not follow that Plan X will cause Plan 9 to degenerate into UNIX.

> Now one could argue that many of us are too much against that change, 
>

I respect, admire, and fully appreciate the motivations behind Plan 9's 
intrinsic conservatism.

> but so far Plan 9 has had everything needed and is still sane.
> 

If Plan 9 has had everything that's needed and is perfectly sane - then why
was Inferno produced? The point there is not to imply that Plan 9 is lacking -
but rather to assert that different use-cases have different sets of needs,
and thus different requirements, and thus different perspectives of what
constitutes "complete, and sane". 

And did Plan 9 loose simplicity and sanity upon Inferno's entrance onto the
playing field?

> There's never been a reason people couldn't create forks or derivatives,
> just because we don't "like change", doesn't mean a separate code base
> couldn't be changed.
<snip>
> [...] we are in this amazing age where cloning is possible, so create a
> 'clone' and do what you please.
>

Of course.  

I'm confused though, because earlier you stated:

"so why do you need a fork? Plan 9 would and will suffice."

<snip>
> The way many of us treat Plan 9, is paternal. We don't want to see our baby
> gluttonizing on any code base she can get her hands on and we don't want
> her shooting up the drug that is the FSF. 
> 

Again, Plan X is not Plan 9 'proper' (the official distribution).

In fact, "Plan X" is specifically for the purpose of facilitating _various_
eXperimental/eXploratory eXpressions of alternative Plan 9 based operating
environments than what is desired and possible within the official
distribution.

Cheers, and kind regards

[*] (Blender 2.5 UI footnote from the beginning of this post):

Reference material for those interested:

http://www.blender.org/development/release-logs/blender-250/updated-gui/
http://www.blender.org/development/release-logs/blender-250/custom-keyboard-
shortcuts/

http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Doc:2.5/Manual#Starting

http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:2.5/
http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:2.5/Source/UI

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] [PlanX] Re:  Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-26  2:04                                     ` [9fans] [PlanX] " Corey
@ 2010-04-26  4:06                                       ` Patrick Kelly
  2010-04-26  5:24                                         ` Corey
  2010-04-26 13:06                                       ` erik quanstrom
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Kelly @ 2010-04-26  4:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: corey, 'Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs'

> > Then experiment!
> >
> 
> I _am_ experimenting!   (c8=
>
> Silently on my own I'm engaged in the sort of ruggedly independent, lone cowboy style research and development which defines
> 9fans'
> standard operating procedure. (in this instance, it involves reducing the Blender 2.5 codebase down to the minimal core UI/WM
> framework[*], for the purpose of prototyping a possible alternative Plan 9 user interface)

Observation ≠ Experimentation

Stripping down the blender code base might be more work than it's worth. I haven't really looked at it so I don't know, but in general that’s the case.
You may be better off with just writing from scratch.

As far as I've seen, and I may have missed this, you haven't mentioned anything about an alternate interface. You'd be more likely to get help with a specific project like that, than just say, hey lets fork Plan 9!

> However, the "Plan X" experiment (which was intended to occur asynchronously to my solitarily-confined efforts), _specifically_
> revolves around the idea of attempting to churn out some discussion and collaboration _before_ attempting to produce anything.

One thing at a time, trying to plan too many things at once wastes time.

> 
> Digression:
> Interfering with the above concept, is the communally-held 9fans axiom
> that:
> 
> Talk - Action = Zero
> (which is of course sometimes true)
> 
> The problem is that ++Talk does not always mean Action--
> (hello Captain Obvious)

That isn't obvious at all.
Time is a fixed value; you can break it down into modules, but when you increase once module you must decrease the other.

Module ∈ Float;
Time ∈ constant Float ≡ Module {[+ Module]};

⇒ Time allocated for talk means less time allocated for action, just like time allocated for the gym means less time allocated for coding.

> When a project (or potential project) requires advice and experience
> that crosses boundaries over a variety of perspectives and skillsets, a
> front-loaded collaboration period is a logical and reasonable approach.

If a project is that complex, then it should be modulated, with each module assigned to an individual. Finish your modules and others may join in.

> Before anything, "Plan X" is/was conceptualized as initially bootstrapping
> itself as a thinktank.
> 
> A "thinktank" comprised of a single individual battling through the flame
> drizzles of a sensitive/reactionary social environment and/or twiddling his
> thumbs on a mostly empty mailing list is...suboptimal

So my work is suboptimal?

> But, so it goes - the idea hasn't so far produced more than a few interested
> parties (who've all chosen to respond offlist). I'm willing to give it "the
> 'ol college try"... but I'm certainly not stubborn enough to continue in the
> face of near total adversity.

Good, I think you will notice much better results as you progress more and more. Work breeds work, conversation breeds conversation.

> The irony here is that the philosophical arguments are largely a simple result
> of me attempting to carefully confront the usual battery of misunderstandings
> and assumptions and defense-mechanisms.

The confrontations, at least from me, were related to what I felt might be needless work. By what I understood, you wanted to create a fork for the sake of creating a fork. If I misunderstood then I am terribly sorry.

We get a good deal of people who come here wanting us to do the work to implement their ideas. That isn't how the real world operates, so we get defensive about it, not just because we don't want to do other peoples work, but because it would be better for them to do the work themselves.

> Despite my best efforts, I'm still seeing folks inferring or projecting the
> following fallacies:
> 
> * I'm being a troll who's objective is to embroil people in arguments
> * I'm being a motormouth who wants nothing more than to gab on and on
	Yes, a bit.
> * I'm trying/hoping to change 9fans culture in my own image
> * I'm trying/hoping to change Plan 9 'proper' according to my own notions
> * I'm trying/hoping to convince other people to do work on my behalf

> I'm doing my absolute best to make myself understood, while attempting to
> avoid unnecessary conflict and irrelevant sub-flames.

Well I'm still not sure I understand the whole Plan X thing. You haven't given a good reason for why a fork would be needed. You're completely free to do what you want though, you don't need permission.

There are two ways to make your ideas understood. One is to complete the project, creating that "oh~ okay, I see now" effect. The other is to rationally explain in great detail. We advocate the first because it kills two birds with one stone.
But you've said you've started some development, or at least have a group, and that is a start.

> I'd prefer not to narrowly frame things in terms of my own personal needs.

Everything we do is personal, even if it's also social.

> "Plan X" is more about discussing potential areas of interest with others;
> for the purpose of possibly identifying a common subset of software that,
> if intelligently and selectively implemented, would more easily facilitate
> new vectors of research and development that are currently made difficult
> or effectively impossible for most mere mortals due to missing or
> inadequate/inappropriate toolchains, libraries and/or toolkits.

I thought that was part of the point behind the mailing list.

> That is very cool, and I'd certainly like to hear more, if you're inclined to
> provide further detail.

I would ask that you send a private message, just to avoid clobbering up 9fans, but I'm more than happy to share ideas.
I would also be more than happy to bounce ideas around, assuming that they are concrete ideas and not just 'hey what about porting this'.

> Another digression:
> I don't think that is quite what the difference between us is.
> 
> Before you start working on a project, you _think_ about the various ways
> in which you might approach and implement things, right?

Not purely, I read A LOT of research papers in which other people have discovered and repetitively proven various ideas. There is still some thinking, but it's just about which ideas fit my goals, not new ideas.

> If you choose not to socially brainstorm and collaborate with others before
> actively engaging on the implementation of any given project - then I can
> only imagine it's because you're confident that you are sufficiently equipped
> with the necessary breadth and depth of skills, abilities and knowledges
> needed to effectively and efficiently fulfill the range of requirements
> necessary to complete your intended project.

Nope, I let others do the brainstorming; I just dig through the chaos.

My work in hardware is another story though…

> If I was a jealous person, I'd probably feel a bit envious of your talents.

Don't be jealous, it's not good for anyone.

> So, to get back to the point: I think the difference between you and I, is
> that you have a broader and deeper spectrum of core competencies than
> myself. Clearly: you're able to produce a complete tool chain and develop
> a system that is similar to Plan 9, but more suited to your own requirements,
> all by yourself.

Anyone is capable, given enough time. I don't plan on doing it all by myself though. Just the core stuff: tool-chain, kernel, firmware, and the little things to get it self-hosting. After that, anyone who feels like it can develop.

> I strongly disagree that the idea is inherently foolish - in fact I think that
> the general idea is demonstrably sound - but I simply have no motivation
> or inclination to attempt to prove you wrong by debating subjective,
> personal opinions/experiences:
> 
> The only way to approximate something that could be taken as a semblance
> of 'proof', would first require that some sort of "Plan X" analog actually
> manifested itself - whether it was a foolish experiment in futility or not
> would depend on seeing what sorts of social and technical artifacts resulted
> after a reasonable measure of time.

You can't know something is false until proven false. I would assume that statement would be equally valid considering foolishness. I could very well be the fool though, only time will tell.

> If Plan 9 has had everything that's needed and is perfectly sane - then why
> was Inferno produced? The point there is not to imply that Plan 9 is lacking -
> but rather to assert that different use-cases have different sets of needs,
> and thus different requirements, and thus different perspectives of what
> constitutes "complete, and sane".

Last thing I knew, there was a Limbo compiler for Plan 9.

> And did Plan 9 loose simplicity and sanity upon Inferno's entrance onto the
> playing field?

Nothing I'm aware of.

> I'm confused though, because earlier you stated:
> 
> "so why do you need a fork? Plan 9 would and will suffice."

It means; I don't understand why you want to create a fork but just go ahead and create it.
"Plan 9 would and will suffice" ∘ ", but" ∘ "we are in this amazing age where cloning is possible, so create a 'clone' and do what you please."

> Again, Plan X is not Plan 9 'proper' (the official distribution).
> 
> In fact, "Plan X" is specifically for the purpose of facilitating _various_
> eXperimental/eXploratory eXpressions of alternative Plan 9 based operating
> environments than what is desired and possible within the official
> distribution.

So if I understand now, Plan X is just a test bed. Should your hypotheoretical ideas be valid and welcome, they could then be merged back.

Remember to be thorough in your propositions, it helps everyone out.

> Cheers, and kind regards

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] [PlanX] Re:  Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-26  4:06                                       ` Patrick Kelly
@ 2010-04-26  5:24                                         ` Corey
  2010-04-26  8:08                                           ` hiro
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: Corey @ 2010-04-26  5:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Sunday 25 April 2010 21:06:11 Patrick Kelly wrote:

> > A "thinktank" comprised of a single individual battling through the flame
> > drizzles of a sensitive/reactionary social environment and/or twiddling
> > his thumbs on a mostly empty mailing list is...suboptimal
> 
> So my work is suboptimal?
> 

You seriously managed to interpret that as an indirect sleight towards your
work?

> > Despite my best efforts, I'm still seeing folks inferring or projecting
> > the following fallacies:
> > 
> > * I'm being a troll who's objective is to embroil people in arguments
> > * I'm being a motormouth who wants nothing more than to gab on and on
> 
> 	Yes, a bit.
> 

No longer an issue - I'll keep further responses, if any, short.

> Stripping down the blender code base might be more work than it's worth. I
> haven't really looked at it so I don't know, but in general that’s the
> case. You may be better off with just writing from scratch.
> 

???

It doesn't matter to me that it _might_ be this, or it _might_ be that - 
I'm doing it, as in - work in progress - for my own set of reasons. 

> As far as I've seen, and I may have missed this, you haven't mentioned
> anything about an alternate interface. You'd be more likely to get help
> with a specific project like that, than just say, hey lets fork Plan 9!
> 

I've already made it clear several times over that I'm not covertly
lobbying for some specific project of my own specific ideas. 

Additionally, "hey lets fork Plan 9!" is an extremely inaccurate summary.

> > In fact, "Plan X" is specifically for the purpose of facilitating
> > _various_ eXperimental/eXploratory eXpressions of alternative Plan 9
> > based operating environments than what is desired and possible within
> > the official distribution.
> 
> So if I understand now, Plan X is just a test bed. Should your
> hypotheoretical ideas be valid and welcome, they could then be merged
> back.
> 
> Remember to be thorough in your propositions, it helps everyone out.
> 
 
Won't be necessary - too much hostility, too much sensitivity, too much
suspicion is in the air for any sort of productive dialog to emerge from
this thread. 

I'm going to drop the subject so that I don't make too much of a  pariah out
of myself - because I'll likely hope to still get help and advice regarding
Plan 9 in the future. 


Peace







^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] [PlanX] Re: Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-26  5:24                                         ` Corey
@ 2010-04-26  8:08                                           ` hiro
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: hiro @ 2010-04-26  8:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: corey, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

> too much hostility, too much sensitivity, too much suspicion is in the air for any sort of productive dialog to emerge from this thread.

fortune worthy :D



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] [PlanX] Re:  Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-26  2:04                                     ` [9fans] [PlanX] " Corey
  2010-04-26  4:06                                       ` Patrick Kelly
@ 2010-04-26 13:06                                       ` erik quanstrom
  2010-04-26 18:42                                         ` Corey
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-04-26 13:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: corey, 9fans

> I'd prefer not to narrowly frame things in terms of my own personal needs.

that kind of thinking made linux what it is today.

if you build something you need, then at least one person
will use it.  if you build something you think people need,
there's no such guarentee.

since we're not selling a product, the best and most direct
"customer feedback," is one's own use of the software.

> Despite my best efforts, I'm still seeing folks inferring or projecting the
> following fallacies:
>
> * I'm being a troll who's objective is to embroil people in arguments
> * I'm being a motormouth who wants nothing more than to gab on and on
> * I'm trying/hoping to change 9fans culture in my own image
> * I'm trying/hoping to change Plan 9 'proper' according to my own notions
> * I'm trying/hoping to convince other people to do work on my behalf

i believe in duck typing.

- erik



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] [PlanX] Re:  Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-26 13:06                                       ` erik quanstrom
@ 2010-04-26 18:42                                         ` Corey
  2010-04-26 19:24                                           ` erik quanstrom
  2010-04-27  9:25                                           ` Ethan Grammatikidis
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Corey @ 2010-04-26 18:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Monday 26 April 2010 06:06:11 erik quanstrom wrote:
> > I'd prefer not to narrowly frame things in terms of my own personal
> > needs.
>
> that kind of thinking made linux what it is today.
>

You can quit being obstinate now, the threat has been eliminated - sleep
soundly, knowing that Plan 9 is once again safe... from being turned into...
linux?

The. mind. reels.

> > Despite my best efforts, I'm still seeing folks inferring or projecting
> > the following fallacies:
> >
> > * I'm being a troll who's objective is to embroil people in arguments
> > * I'm being a motormouth who wants nothing more than to gab on and on
> > * I'm trying/hoping to change 9fans culture in my own image
> > * I'm trying/hoping to change Plan 9 'proper' according to my own notions
> > * I'm trying/hoping to convince other people to do work on my behalf
>
> i believe in duck typing.
>

Is this your sad attempt at leaving a snarky hook?

Your implementation automatically treats all but a very narrow and somewhat
arbitrary set of values as type Troll.That's the problem with duck typing.
Better to have a message outright fail than to have it interpreted and applied
incorrectly. Sounds like you could benefit from some unit tests.

The problem is that in this case there's a massive bug in your program logic -
your knee_jerk_reaction(), tunnel_vision() and dogma() methods appear
hardcoded somewhere to intercept and override  all messages that would be
better handled by your benefit_of_the_doubt() or think_rationally() methods.

No doubt we can play insult-one-another-via-programming-analogy ping-pong
all day long, but I'm done with this thread, and the subject in general: the
vocal minority who have taken it upon themselves to purposefully sabotage
communication have finally become impossible to tolerate.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] [PlanX] Re:  Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-26 18:42                                         ` Corey
@ 2010-04-26 19:24                                           ` erik quanstrom
  2010-04-26 19:55                                             ` Corey
  2010-04-27  9:25                                           ` Ethan Grammatikidis
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 106+ messages in thread
From: erik quanstrom @ 2010-04-26 19:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: corey, 9fans

> On Monday 26 April 2010 06:06:11 erik quanstrom wrote:
> > > I'd prefer not to narrowly frame things in terms of my own personal
> > > needs.
> >
> > that kind of thinking made linux what it is today.
> >
>
> You can quit being obstinate now, the threat has been eliminated - sleep
> soundly, knowing that Plan 9 is once again safe... from being turned into...
> linux?
>
> The. mind. reels.

interestingly, you cut out of your quote the three arguments
i had for programming for one's own needs.

i'd like to add that unix was written this way at bell labs.
a lot of good can come of solving one's own problem well.
multics (hopefully no one is personally vested in it) by
contrast tried to solve problems more in the abstract.

perhaps you're talking my comments personally?  i don't
see why you would, since there is no person that can claim
responsibility for what linux is.

> The problem is that in this case there's a massive bug in your program logic -
> your knee_jerk_reaction(), tunnel_vision() and dogma() methods appear
> hardcoded somewhere to intercept and override  all messages that would be
> better handled by your benefit_of_the_doubt() or think_rationally() methods.

do you have any evidence for this assertion?  the topic here
is if one should program for one's own needs or not.

neither i nor the list deserve this ad hominem.

> but I'm done with this thread, and the subject in general

you said that already.

- erik

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] [PlanX] Re:  Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-26 19:24                                           ` erik quanstrom
@ 2010-04-26 19:55                                             ` Corey
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Corey @ 2010-04-26 19:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans


Response sent offlist.

On Monday 26 April 2010 12:24:02 erik quanstrom wrote:
> > On Monday 26 April 2010 06:06:11 erik quanstrom wrote:
> > > > I'd prefer not to narrowly frame things in terms of my own personal
> > > > needs.
> > >
> > > that kind of thinking made linux what it is today.
> >
> > You can quit being obstinate now, the threat has been eliminated - sleep
> > soundly, knowing that Plan 9 is once again safe... from being turned
> > into... linux?
> >
> > The. mind. reels.
>
> interestingly, you cut out of your quote the three arguments
> i had for programming for one's own needs.
>
> i'd like to add that unix was written this way at bell labs.
> a lot of good can come of solving one's own problem well.
> multics (hopefully no one is personally vested in it) by
> contrast tried to solve problems more in the abstract.
>
> perhaps you're talking my comments personally?  i don't
> see why you would, since there is no person that can claim
> responsibility for what linux is.
>
> > The problem is that in this case there's a massive bug in your program
> > logic - your knee_jerk_reaction(), tunnel_vision() and dogma() methods
> > appear hardcoded somewhere to intercept and override  all messages that
> > would be better handled by your benefit_of_the_doubt() or
> > think_rationally() methods.
>
> do you have any evidence for this assertion?  the topic here
> is if one should program for one's own needs or not.
>
> neither i nor the list deserve this ad hominem.
>
> > but I'm done with this thread, and the subject in general
>
> you said that already.
>
> - erik




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] [PlanX] Re:  Mars Needs Women
  2010-04-26 18:42                                         ` Corey
  2010-04-26 19:24                                           ` erik quanstrom
@ 2010-04-27  9:25                                           ` Ethan Grammatikidis
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: Ethan Grammatikidis @ 2010-04-27  9:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: corey, Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

On 26 Apr 2010, at 19:42, Corey wrote:

> On Monday 26 April 2010 06:06:11 erik quanstrom wrote:
>>> I'd prefer not to narrowly frame things in terms of my own personal
>>> needs.
>>
>> that kind of thinking made linux what it is today.
>>
>
> You can quit being obstinate now, the threat has been eliminated -
> sleep
> soundly, knowing that Plan 9 is once again safe... from being turned
> into...
> linux?
>
> The. mind. reels.

Your utter inability to see the problems GNU and Linux are riddled
with is one very good reason for not following your work. I looked at
the thread this morning with the idea that while I may not join in it
could be very interesting to follow further, but after this post? Ugh!
Read on.

It's precisely the kind of thinking that wants to include stuff for
other people that leads to problems. You want to be select about the
technologies you incorporate into Plan X? Well, Linus Torvalds and the
Linux kernel team are very careful about what they put into their
kernel. They are actually one of the best open-source kernel teams
around, but they have STILL ended up with a kernel that Linus Torvalds
himself admits is so bloated it will be very hard to put right.

--
Simplicity does not precede complexity, but follows it. -- Alan Perlis

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!)
@ 2010-04-19 12:13 John Stalker
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 106+ messages in thread
From: John Stalker @ 2010-04-19 12:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

Well that was a very long discussion, and a fairly pointless one
for the following reasons:
- It doesn't matter whether Plan X is a good idea or not, unless
  someone is actually going to try to implement it.  That is not
  at all clear at this point.
- Most of the discussion seems not to have been about the topic,
  but about each individual's personal pet peeves.
- This is all being discussed in the wrong place.  If there is
  a problem which Plan X could solve then it is that almost no
  one uses Plan 9.  To caricature, it would provide private
  namespaces to people who don't like pastel colours and
  bunnies.  But those people aren't on this list, so this is
  the wrong place to guage their level of interest.
--
John Stalker
School of Mathematics
Trinity College Dublin
tel +353 1 896 1983
fax +353 1 896 2282



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 106+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2010-04-27  9:25 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 106+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2010-04-16 11:57 [9fans] TeX: hurrah! tlaronde
2010-04-16 12:43 ` Jacob Todd
2010-04-16 13:20 ` David Leimbach
2010-04-16 13:32 ` Alexander Sychev
2010-04-16 13:47   ` tlaronde
2010-04-16 14:07   ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
2010-04-16 14:12     ` James Chapman
2010-04-16 14:27     ` Alexander Sychev
2010-04-16 16:19       ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
2010-04-16 16:23         ` erik quanstrom
2010-04-16 16:47         ` Patrick Kelly
2010-04-16 17:05           ` Jack Johnson
2010-04-16 17:55             ` Patrick Kelly
2010-04-16 18:14               ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
2010-04-16 18:22                 ` Joseph Stewart
2010-04-16 18:37                   ` James Chapman
2010-04-16 18:55                     ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
2010-04-16 22:10                       ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
2010-04-16 23:00                         ` Jorden M
2010-04-18  4:24                         ` Joel C. Salomon
2010-04-18  7:22                           ` [9fans] C++ support [was: TeX: hurrah!] EBo
2010-04-18  8:52                             ` lucio
2010-04-18 14:30                               ` Jorden M
2010-04-18 12:45                           ` [9fans] TeX: hurrah! Karljurgen Feuerherm
2010-04-19 12:31                             ` James Chapman
2010-04-19  8:34                           ` [9fans] C++ support [was: TeX: hurrah!] staalmannen
2010-04-16 18:27                 ` [9fans] TeX: hurrah! Patrick Kelly
2010-04-16 17:11           ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
2010-04-16 17:17             ` erik quanstrom
2010-04-16 17:46               ` Francisco J Ballesteros
2010-04-16 18:10                 ` tlaronde
2010-04-16 18:10             ` Patrick Kelly
2010-04-16 23:58               ` [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!) Corey
2010-04-16 23:58                 ` andrey mirtchovski
2010-04-17  4:20                 ` Federico G. Benavento
2010-04-17  4:29                 ` lucio
2010-04-17  6:49                   ` Corey
2010-04-17  7:41                     ` lucio
2010-04-17  9:39                       ` Corey
2010-04-17 12:20                         ` lucio
2010-04-17 13:46                           ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
2010-04-17 14:02                             ` lucio
2010-04-17 14:19                             ` Patrick Kelly
2010-04-17 14:25                               ` lucio
2010-04-17 14:54                                 ` Patrick Kelly
2010-04-17 16:09                                   ` lucio
2010-04-17 16:26                                     ` Patrick Kelly
2010-04-17 18:01                                       ` lucio
2010-04-17 18:26                                         ` Patrick Kelly
2010-04-19  7:15                                       ` Tim Newsham
2010-04-17 16:30                                 ` Patrick Kelly
2010-04-17 17:01                               ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
2010-04-17 17:46                                 ` lucio
2010-04-17 17:58                                   ` lucio
2010-04-17 18:33                                   ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
2010-04-17 17:29                               ` Albert Skye
2010-04-17 13:39                         ` Patrick Kelly
2010-04-17 17:45                         ` Albert Skye
2010-04-17 16:30                       ` Jack Johnson
2010-04-17 17:41                         ` lucio
2010-04-17 12:06                     ` Nick Frolov
2010-04-17 17:06                     ` Iruata Souza
2010-04-18 19:45                       ` Corey
2010-04-17 18:55                     ` Richard Miller
2010-04-18 16:48                       ` Federico G. Benavento
2010-04-19  2:10                         ` Jack Johnson
2010-04-19  3:21                           ` erik quanstrom
2010-04-17 17:09                   ` Jack Johnson
2010-04-17  7:28                 ` SHRIZZA
2010-04-17 10:21                   ` Corey
2010-04-17 14:00                     ` erik quanstrom
2010-04-18 19:26                       ` [9fans] Mars Needs Women Corey
2010-04-18 20:58                         ` erik quanstrom
2010-04-19  0:51                           ` Corey
2010-04-19  1:20                             ` Patrick Kelly
2010-04-19  3:33                             ` John Floren
2010-04-19  4:46                               ` lucio
2010-04-19  0:10                         ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
2010-04-19  3:18                           ` erik quanstrom
2010-04-19 12:14                             ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
2010-04-25  4:20                               ` Rahul Murmuria
2010-04-25  6:14                                 ` Corey
2010-04-25 15:22                                   ` Patrick Kelly
2010-04-25 22:33                                     ` Karljurgen Feuerherm
2010-04-25 23:07                                       ` Patrick Kelly
2010-04-25 23:35                                         ` Alex Lee
2010-04-26  2:04                                     ` [9fans] [PlanX] " Corey
2010-04-26  4:06                                       ` Patrick Kelly
2010-04-26  5:24                                         ` Corey
2010-04-26  8:08                                           ` hiro
2010-04-26 13:06                                       ` erik quanstrom
2010-04-26 18:42                                         ` Corey
2010-04-26 19:24                                           ` erik quanstrom
2010-04-26 19:55                                             ` Corey
2010-04-27  9:25                                           ` Ethan Grammatikidis
2010-04-25 18:55                                   ` [9fans] " blstuart
2010-04-26  1:01                                     ` Ethan Grammatikidis
2010-04-19  8:45                           ` [9fans] C, APE, Posix C H Forsyth
2010-04-17 19:27                 ` [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!) Bakul Shah
2010-04-17 21:35                   ` C H Forsyth
2010-04-18 15:52                     ` Scott Sullivan
2010-04-18 20:58                       ` C H Forsyth
2010-04-19  1:43                         ` Jeff Sickel
2010-04-18 18:24                     ` Bakul Shah
2010-04-16 18:03       ` [9fans] TeX: hurrah! Joel C. Salomon
2010-04-19 12:13 [9fans] Mars Needs Women (was Re: TeX: hurrah!) John Stalker

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