Re: [9fans] acme + mh

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[quanstro]

the version in p9p is not what you want. 

- erik

On Tue Feb  7 22:54:03 CST 2006, tim@nop.cx wrote:
> 
>     that's great to hear. nice job on the work done so far.
>     if i have some time this weekend i'd like to start playing with
>     what's there.
> 

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[quanstro]

for the brave, maybe the foolhardy, my current version
is on sources in contrib/quanstro/upas.tar.bz2. 

complaints to me.

- erik

On Wed Feb  8 06:07:57 CST 2006, quanstro@quanstro.net wrote:
> the version in p9p is not what you want. 
> 
> - erik
> 
> On Tue Feb  7 22:54:03 CST 2006, tim@nop.cx wrote:
> > 
> >     that's great to hear. nice job on the work done so far.
> >     if i have some time this weekend i'd like to start playing with
> >     what's there.
> > 

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[quanstro]

you hit the nail on the head. currently ned's "dot" is always the whole
message.

to fix this one needs to figure out how to cleanly express the currently selected
- text
- header field or message body
- mimepart(s)
- message(s)

On Fri Feb 10 13:40:57 CST 2006, rog@vitanuova.com wrote:
> > nedmail works pretty well. but i think that an interface that low-level
> > needs to be more easily programmable. 
> 
> i wouldn't mind just a little enhancement of the current nedmail
> command language.  i often find myself wishing i could build up
> regexps sam-style:
> 
> .,$g/\[9fans]/v/acme \+ mh/{s stuff; d}
> 

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[quanstro]

i have been using upas pretty much fulltime on p9p.
although the porting work isn't very presentable, 
faces, plumber, acme/mail, upas/^(alias fs marshal ned send smtp)
do work well enough to get by.

- erik

On Tue Feb  7 00:06:03 CST 2006, tim@nop.cx wrote:
> 
>     no and i wasn't suggesting that mh is capable of providing as a
>     rich an interface as upas/fs. just that it is what i prefer when
>     i can't use upas/fs, since people were asking. and Russ was
>     wondering if he was the only one around here using it. :)
> 

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Tim Wiess]

> i have been using upas pretty much fulltime on p9p.
> although the porting work isn't very presentable, 
> faces, plumber, acme/mail, upas/^(alias fs marshal ned send smtp)
> do work well enough to get by.

    that's great to hear. nice job on the work done so far.
    if i have some time this weekend i'd like to start playing with
    what's there.

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[quanstro]

can you cat /mail/fs/mbox/113/subject?

On Mon Feb  6 10:32:25 CST 2006, tim@nop.cx wrote:
> 
>     i've always used mh for mail on unix. i like it, as it gives you
>     many of the same benefits to having a fs interface to your mail
>     that upas/fs does.
> 
>     tim

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Tim Wiess]

> can you cat /mail/fs/mbox/113/subject?
> 
> On Mon Feb  6 10:32:25 CST 2006, tim@nop.cx wrote:
>> 
>>     i've always used mh for mail on unix. i like it, as it gives you
>>     many of the same benefits to having a fs interface to your mail
>>     that upas/fs does.
>> 
>>     tim

    no and i wasn't suggesting that mh is capable of providing as a
    rich an interface as upas/fs. just that it is what i prefer when
    i can't use upas/fs, since people were asking. and Russ was
    wondering if he was the only one around here using it. :)

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[quanstro]

nedmail works pretty well. but i think that an interface that low-level
needs to be more easily programmable. 

i've experimented a bit with splitting nedmail into seperate programs
and using the shell to glue it back together. the jury is still out.
there's some unix only junk^wcode on sources (mail.pkg.tar.bz2)

- erik

On Mon Feb  6 10:46:16 CST 2006, uriel@cat-v.org wrote:
> I think some people swear by nedmail(1), but it feels bit too rudimentary,
> or maybe I'm just an acme junkie.
> 
> I always liked the design of boyd's mace, there is a port to Plan 9
> here: http://www.sitetronics.com/www.insultant.net/code/9mace.bundle
> but it doesn't seem to compile in 4th edition, I have somewhere in my
> TODO list to get it running...  a reimplementation in Limbo is another
> idea I have been toying with.
> 
> uriel
> 

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[rog]

> nedmail works pretty well. but i think that an interface that low-level
> needs to be more easily programmable. 

i wouldn't mind just a little enhancement of the current nedmail
command language.  i often find myself wishing i could build up
regexps sam-style:

.,$g/\[9fans]/v/acme \+ mh/{s stuff; d}

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[quanstro]

that's an outragous amount of spam

On Sat Feb  4 18:37:10 CST 2006, bruce.ellis@gmail.com wrote:
> i find gmail to be a good spam meter.  just never read or delete
> what goes in spam - then the spam folder count tells how many
> you got in the last month (they get auto-trashed after a month).
> 

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Bruce Ellis]

most of it forwarded from chunder.com that has a presence .

they must be glad i don't read them ... oops 1697 -we are on an up.

On 2/5/06, quanstro@quanstro.net <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> that's an outragous amount of spam
>
> On Sat Feb  4 18:37:10 CST 2006, bruce.ellis@gmail.com wrote:
> > i find gmail to be a good spam meter.  just never read or delete
> > what goes in spam - then the spam folder count tells how many
> > you got in the last month (they get auto-trashed after a month).

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Micah Stetson]

> that's an outragous amount of spam

I was just thinking how little it is.  My GMail spam count is at 6714
right now, and I get about 20 per day that it doesn't catch.

Micah

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Bruce Ellis]

wow!  spam city.  mine has risen 60 since last e-mail.

brucee

On 2/6/06, Micah Stetson <micah@stetsonnet.org> wrote:
> > that's an outragous amount of spam
>
> I was just thinking how little it is.  My GMail spam count is at 6714
> right now, and I get about 20 per day that it doesn't catch.
>
> Micah

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[ems]

Might have something to do with the recent Mozilla related security
holes.

http://secunia.com/advisories/18703/

-- ems
On Mon, 2006-02-06 at 05:08 +1100, Bruce Ellis wrote:
> wow!  spam city.  mine has risen 60 since last e-mail.
> 
> brucee
> 
> On 2/6/06, Micah Stetson <micah@stetsonnet.org> wrote:
> > > that's an outragous amount of spam
> >
> > I was just thinking how little it is.  My GMail spam count is at 6714
> > right now, and I get about 20 per day that it doesn't catch.
> >
> > Micah

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Bruce Ellis]

firefox/tunderbird ... update every day!

brucee

On 2/6/06, ems <oat@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> Might have something to do with the recent Mozilla related security
> holes.
>
> http://secunia.com/advisories/18703/
>
> -- ems
> On Mon, 2006-02-06 at 05:08 +1100, Bruce Ellis wrote:
> > wow!  spam city.  mine has risen 60 since last e-mail.
> >
> > brucee
> >
> > On 2/6/06, Micah Stetson <micah@stetsonnet.org> wrote:
> > > > that's an outragous amount of spam
> > >
> > > I was just thinking how little it is.  My GMail spam count is at 6714
> > > right now, and I get about 20 per day that it doesn't catch.
> > >
> > > Micah
>

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[ems]

Still hasn't been patched.

-- ems

P.S. Brucee if you get a call around 4PM, checking if you want some free
beer. ;)
On Mon, 2006-02-06 at 05:23 +1100, Bruce Ellis wrote:
> firefox/tunderbird ... update every day!
> 
> brucee
> 
> On 2/6/06, ems <oat@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> > Might have something to do with the recent Mozilla related security
> > holes.
> >
> > http://secunia.com/advisories/18703/
> >
> > -- ems
> > On Mon, 2006-02-06 at 05:08 +1100, Bruce Ellis wrote:
> > > wow!  spam city.  mine has risen 60 since last e-mail.
> > >
> > > brucee
> > >
> > > On 2/6/06, Micah Stetson <micah@stetsonnet.org> wrote:
> > > > > that's an outragous amount of spam
> > > >
> > > > I was just thinking how little it is.  My GMail spam count is at 6714
> > > > right now, and I get about 20 per day that it doesn't catch.
> > > >
> > > > Micah
> >

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Bruce Ellis]

it's 5:30am here but sure ...

brucee

On 2/6/06, ems <oat@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> Still hasn't been patched.
>
> -- ems
>
> P.S. Brucee if you get a call around 4PM, checking if you want some free
> beer. ;)
> On Mon, 2006-02-06 at 05:23 +1100, Bruce Ellis wrote:
> > firefox/tunderbird ... update every day!
> >
> > brucee
> >
> > On 2/6/06, ems <oat@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> > > Might have something to do with the recent Mozilla related security
> > > holes.
> > >
> > > http://secunia.com/advisories/18703/
> > >
> > > -- ems
> > > On Mon, 2006-02-06 at 05:08 +1100, Bruce Ellis wrote:
> > > > wow!  spam city.  mine has risen 60 since last e-mail.
> > > >
> > > > brucee
> > > >
> > > > On 2/6/06, Micah Stetson <micah@stetsonnet.org> wrote:
> > > > > > that's an outragous amount of spam
> > > > >
> > > > > I was just thinking how little it is.  My GMail spam count is at 6714
> > > > > right now, and I get about 20 per day that it doesn't catch.
> > > > >
> > > > > Micah
> > >
>

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[quanstro]

i've thought about it. the hard part is esentially having the web server
login as the user to access upas/fs.

- erik

On Fri Feb  3 22:11:21 CST 2006, 9nut@9netics.com wrote:
> Funny you should mention this today.  I've been setting up eudora
> and tbird to use imap4 (tls work is yet to be completed)
> 
> this made me think.  Is anyone working on a webmail interface? I
> looked at squirrelmail, but it's in php.
> 
> another potentially useful thing would be to add 9P to a good smtp
> agent (whatever that is) and wrap it in activex or mozilla plugin.
> 

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[quanstro]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 52 bytes --]

you can see how well that sometimes works!

- erik

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From: erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu, Ronald G Minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov>
Cc: 
Subject: Re: [9fans] acme + mh
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 21:29:31 -0600
Message-ID: <704b5673ed62375bb6488be1d9fbdce7@quanstro.net>

References: <43E41892.70506@lanl.gov>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
In-Reply-To: <43E41892.70506@lanl.gov>
Subject: [9fans] acme + mh

i'm using upas. (well sometimes i cheat and use contrib/quanstro/mail.pkg.tar.bz2
for reply and mime parsing. upas/fs doesn't believe in References or appledouble.)

what upas has on plan9 works pretty well on unix. however, what upas doesn't
do well is folders. search works pretty well, but is limited to "search body" or 
"search headers".

upas/fs should support indexed search.

- erik

Ronald G Minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> writes

| 
| how easy is it to read mail, refile mail, search mail, etc. Any comments 
| on usability? If you do like it, what other mail clients have you used? 
| Inquiring, happy-puppy-fatigued minds want to know!
| 
| thanks
| 
| ron

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[erik quanstrom]

References: <43E41892.70506@lanl.gov>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
In-Reply-To: <43E41892.70506@lanl.gov>
Subject: [9fans] acme + mh

i'm using upas. (well sometimes i cheat and use contrib/quanstro/mail.pkg.tar.bz2
for reply and mime parsing. upas/fs doesn't believe in References or appledouble.)

what upas has on plan9 works pretty well on unix. however, what upas doesn't
do well is folders. search works pretty well, but is limited to "search body" or 
"search headers".

upas/fs should support indexed search.

- erik

Ronald G Minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> writes

| 
| how easy is it to read mail, refile mail, search mail, etc. Any comments 
| on usability? If you do like it, what other mail clients have you used? 
| Inquiring, happy-puppy-fatigued minds want to know!
| 
| thanks
| 
| ron

[9fans] acme + mh

[Ronald G Minnich]

how is it working out for people? I have been using Sirius Cybernetics 
Thunderbird, which was supposed to be some kind of Miracle Mail program, 
and am finding it to be less than perfect. Actually, it kinda sucks. It 
has an autocomplete that is wrong in a very annoying fashion, since it 
is usually right, but goes wrong in very strange ways, and your mail to 
andrey goes to andrew before you know it -- you type andrey, it 
autocompletes in some strange way, it ignores the 'y' -- I've tested 
this a few times. Happy People Movers have nothing on the Sirius 
Cybernetics Thunderbird mail program!

It has a way of deciding that once the network is gone, and you send, 
you can never retry the send again in some cases without exiting the 
damned thing (it just happened again while editing this message: "the 
mail server is gone. It won't be back ever again. It's hopeless. I won't 
even try. You humans really enjoy this kind of thing, don't you? I'm so 
depressed. I'll just go in a corner and rust" -- I wish!).

The list goes on, but I am overall finding that it is a very happy-puppy 
like piece of software, anxious to get in there and do things for you, 
making you trip over it, and most of the time making you want to tell it 
to shut up and go hide in a corner before you get out a rolled-up 
newspaper.

I especially like the way, when viewing messages, you hit 'delete' to 
kill the message and move on, and it somehow loses track of what it was 
doing, so it's no longer pointing to any message, and you have to grab 
the mouse and find a message to select so you can proceeed. Weird. The 
gnome library seems to have a lot of this strange corner case behavior. 
(the list goes on .... it's interesting to have to resize ethereal 
windows so you can get the vertical scrollbar to realize that you just 
traced 10,000 packets, and want to see more than the 12 currently shown)

What I want is a mail reader that will ... oh, never mind, I think I 
want the macos x mail reader. But who knows, maybe that's as bad as all 
the others.

how easy is it to read mail, refile mail, search mail, etc. Any comments 
on usability? If you do like it, what other mail clients have you used? 
Inquiring, happy-puppy-fatigued minds want to know!

thanks

ron

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[andrey mirtchovski]

> What I want is a mail reader that will ... oh, never mind, I think I
> want the macos x mail reader. But who knows, maybe that's as bad as all
> the others.

the osx mail reader doesn't do autocompletion. instead, you need to
keep a separate addressbook application open, from which to pick the
addresses you want. not any addressbook app, mind you, osx' default
addressbook.

it also hides the real email address you're sending to unless you
configure it out of preferences, showing you only the 'name'.

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Rob Pike]

> the osx mail reader doesn't do autocompletion.

yes it does.

-rob

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[andrey mirtchovski]

On 2/3/06, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > the osx mail reader doesn't do autocompletion.
>
> yes it does.

true. i found it under Preferences. missed it the first time because
of the huge "Configure LDAP" button right next to it.

i retract my original statement. how do you like OSX by the way?

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Bruce Ellis]

great if you are in sudo land.  not impressed.

brucee

On 2/4/06, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchovski@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/3/06, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > the osx mail reader doesn't do autocompletion.
> >
> > yes it does.
>
> true. i found it under Preferences. missed it the first time because
> of the huge "Configure LDAP" button right next to it.
>
> i retract my original statement. how do you like OSX by the way?
>

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Dan Cross]

On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 10:03:45PM -0700, andrey mirtchovski wrote:
> true. i found it under Preferences. missed it the first time because
> of the huge "Configure LDAP" button right next to it.

Yet another case of being smacked in the eye by LDAP.

> i retract my original statement. how do you like OSX by the way?

I'm not Rob, but OS X is pretty nice.  It makes me wonder why I ever
sat in front of a Unix worstation all those years....

	- Dan C.

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[David Leimbach]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1080 bytes --]

On 2/3/06, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchovski@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What I want is a mail reader that will ... oh, never mind, I think I
> > want the macos x mail reader. But who knows, maybe that's as bad as all
> > the others.
>
> the osx mail reader doesn't do autocompletion. instead, you need to
> keep a separate addressbook application open, from which to pick the
> addresses you want. not any addressbook app, mind you, osx' default
> addressbook.



Hmmm that's not true at all from my 4 years of using it almost exclusively
:)  It always autocompletes for me it uses not just entries from the address
book but emails I've sent to before.  My boss has about 10 email addresses
for instance... only one is the address book, however when I type his first
name I get a big list of all the people with the same first name whom I've
emailed.


it also hides the real email address you're sending to unless you
> configure it out of preferences, showing you only the 'name'.
>

Sure, but it also gives you a drop down list to choose from as you type.

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Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Skip Tavakkolian]

Funny you should mention this today.  I've been setting up eudora
and tbird to use imap4 (tls work is yet to be completed)

this made me think.  Is anyone working on a webmail interface? I
looked at squirrelmail, but it's in php.

another potentially useful thing would be to add 9P to a good smtp
agent (whatever that is) and wrap it in activex or mozilla plugin.

Ronald G Minnich wrote:
> how is it working out for people? I have been using Sirius Cybernetics 
> Thunderbird, which was supposed to be some kind of Miracle Mail program, 
> and am finding it to be less than perfect. Actually, it kinda sucks. It 
> has an autocomplete that is wrong in a very annoying fashion, since it 
> is usually right, but goes wrong in very strange ways, and your mail to 
> andrey goes to andrew before you know it -- you type andrey, it 
> autocompletes in some strange way, it ignores the 'y' -- I've tested 
> this a few times. Happy People Movers have nothing on the Sirius 
> Cybernetics Thunderbird mail program!
> 
> It has a way of deciding that once the network is gone, and you send, 
> you can never retry the send again in some cases without exiting the 
> damned thing (it just happened again while editing this message: "the 
> mail server is gone. It won't be back ever again. It's hopeless. I won't 
> even try. You humans really enjoy this kind of thing, don't you? I'm so 
> depressed. I'll just go in a corner and rust" -- I wish!).
> 
> The list goes on, but I am overall finding that it is a very happy-puppy 
> like piece of software, anxious to get in there and do things for you, 
> making you trip over it, and most of the time making you want to tell it 
> to shut up and go hide in a corner before you get out a rolled-up 
> newspaper.
> 
> I especially like the way, when viewing messages, you hit 'delete' to 
> kill the message and move on, and it somehow loses track of what it was 
> doing, so it's no longer pointing to any message, and you have to grab 
> the mouse and find a message to select so you can proceeed. Weird. The 
> gnome library seems to have a lot of this strange corner case behavior. 
> (the list goes on .... it's interesting to have to resize ethereal 
> windows so you can get the vertical scrollbar to realize that you just 
> traced 10,000 packets, and want to see more than the 12 currently shown)
> 
> What I want is a mail reader that will ... oh, never mind, I think I 
> want the macos x mail reader. But who knows, maybe that's as bad as all 
> the others.
> 
> how easy is it to read mail, refile mail, search mail, etc. Any comments 
> on usability? If you do like it, what other mail clients have you used? 
> Inquiring, happy-puppy-fatigued minds want to know!
> 
> thanks
> 
> ron
> 

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Ronald G Minnich]

Skip Tavakkolian wrote:

> this made me think.  Is anyone working on a webmail interface? I
> looked at squirrelmail, but it's in php.

oh, boy, it is SLOW. You can get gray hairs just reading mail in 
squirrelmail.

it's weird, our machines, and networks, and servers, and just about 
every measure, are at least 100x, and sometimes 1000x, faster than they 
used to be just 10 years ago. But the software is getting SLOWER. Now 
there's a magic trick. (oh well, that rant has already been visited by 
ousterhout, 10 years ago, when ... never mind).

"No matter how fast I make the hardware, the software guys piss it away" 
-- famous superomputer designer.


ron

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Bruce Ellis]

i agree.  squirrelmail has nevr been my friend.

brucee

On 2/5/06, Ronald G Minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> wrote:
> Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
>
> > this made me think.  Is anyone working on a webmail interface? I
> > looked at squirrelmail, but it's in php.
>
> oh, boy, it is SLOW. You can get gray hairs just reading mail in
> squirrelmail.
>
> it's weird, our machines, and networks, and servers, and just about
> every measure, are at least 100x, and sometimes 1000x, faster than they
> used to be just 10 years ago. But the software is getting SLOWER. Now
> there's a magic trick. (oh well, that rant has already been visited by
> ousterhout, 10 years ago, when ... never mind).
>
> "No matter how fast I make the hardware, the software guys piss it away"
> -- famous superomputer designer.
>
>
> ron
>

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Ronald G Minnich]

Bruce Ellis wrote:
> i agree.  squirrelmail has nevr been my friend.

BTW, w.r.t. mail, I think the answer so far, is, sadly, start using 
macos x mailer.

Ain't gonna work for me, I still need this linux laptop for work, and I 
can't lug around two laptops. So, it's Sirius Cybernetics Thunderbird 
for me.

Or, bite the bullet and run yellowdog on the mac with macosx in their 
emulation-like environment. I guess I'll give that one a shot.

thanks

ron

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Bruce Ellis]

don't say Mac to me ... use gmail.

brucee

On 2/5/06, Ronald G Minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> wrote:
> Bruce Ellis wrote:
> > i agree.  squirrelmail has nevr been my friend.
>
> BTW, w.r.t. mail, I think the answer so far, is, sadly, start using
> macos x mailer.
>
> Ain't gonna work for me, I still need this linux laptop for work, and I
> can't lug around two laptops. So, it's Sirius Cybernetics Thunderbird
> for me.
>
> Or, bite the bullet and run yellowdog on the mac with macosx in their
> emulation-like environment. I guess I'll give that one a shot.
>
> thanks
>
> ron
>

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Skip Tavakkolian]

ok, shot squirrel in the head.  but i don't think that takes away
from the good reasons for webmail.  one of the best reasons is
support for unicode/right-left languages.

maybe google will open their gmail backend (what is the right
emoticon for "it could happen"?)

i've been thinking about getting a mac, but i'm not sure
if i'm mac-worthy. now that they're using pentiums, perhaps
i can try to put on mac airs.

> don't say Mac to me ... use gmail.
> 
> brucee
> 
> On 2/5/06, Ronald G Minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> wrote:
>> Bruce Ellis wrote:
>> > i agree.  squirrelmail has nevr been my friend.
>>
>> BTW, w.r.t. mail, I think the answer so far, is, sadly, start using
>> macos x mailer.

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Russ Cox]

> don't say Mac to me ...  use gmail.

the nice thing about imap is that you can use multiple mail
reading programs at once as long as you keep the data on
the server.  so you can use os x mail or sylpheed or whatever
else when you absolutely need to, but acme mail (if you like it)
for most reading.  that is, once there is a better imap upas/fs.

right now i download my mail via pop3 from gmail and read
it using my hacked up acme mail+mh, but in a pinch i can still
go to gmail.

russ

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Bruce Ellis]

the nice thing about gmail is that spam never gets downloaded.
the bad thing about multiple mail reading programs is getting
them to agree/work.  gmail followed me around the world and
will again soon.

and if you get a message from "joe bloggs" saying "what about
that mail i sent you last week" you can search spam for joe -
maybe he used the word enlargement or something similar.

brucee

On 2/6/06, Russ Cox <rsc@swtch.com> wrote:
> > don't say Mac to me ...  use gmail.
>
> the nice thing about imap is that you can use multiple mail
> reading programs at once as long as you keep the data on
> the server.  so you can use os x mail or sylpheed or whatever
> else when you absolutely need to, but acme mail (if you like it)
> for most reading.  that is, once there is a better imap upas/fs.
>
> right now i download my mail via pop3 from gmail and read
> it using my hacked up acme mail+mh, but in a pinch i can still
> go to gmail.
>
> russ
>

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Bakul Shah]

> Bruce Ellis wrote:
> > i agree.  squirrelmail has nevr been my friend.
> 
> BTW, w.r.t. mail, I think the answer so far, is, sadly, start using 
> macos x mailer.
> 
> Ain't gonna work for me, I still need this linux laptop for work, and I 
> can't lug around two laptops. So, it's Sirius Cybernetics Thunderbird 
> for me.

I have been using MH for a very long time now and on the
whole I am very happy with it.  ssh+screen+MH allows me to be
lazy and be in the middle of reading/composing any number of
messages from any machine that can do ssh and from anywhere
in the world (even on a dialup line) without losing any
context (as long as the "server" running MH stays up --
usually years unless I foolishly decide to "upgrade" the
server).  It is a bit clunky now and not as well integrated
as some of the newfangled MUAs but it is quite customizable
and my setup & emails have survived multiple machine moves
well (the first one was on a 5.5Mhz 68k unix box).

Why would you want to trust your email to a new kid on the
block?

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Russ Cox]

> Why would you want to trust your email to a new kid on the
> block?

This is a senseless argument.  It shouldn't matter whether the 
programs are old or new.  If they work better for you, you
should use them.  If ssh+screen+mh is your ideal setup, fine.
If I want to use programs like acme mail (or even thunderbird)
because they're better for me, then it shouldn't matter how old
or `proven' they are.

(I assume you use ed to compose your mail - why would you
want to trust your editing to the new kid on the block?)

Russ

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Bakul Shah]

> > Why would you want to trust your email to a new kid on the
> > block?
> 
> This is a senseless argument.  It shouldn't matter whether the 
> programs are old or new.  If they work better for you, you
> should use them.  If ssh+screen+mh is your ideal setup, fine.
> If I want to use programs like acme mail (or even thunderbird)
> because they're better for me, then it shouldn't matter how old
> or `proven' they are.

Use what works for you.  I was merely pointing out that if,
like me, you want to be able to search/read very old email
many years from now, you want a stable format to store email
and associated meta data in.  If you have to convert every
few years you may to lose some context that relied on the
peculiarities of the program you are converting from.

> (I assume you use ed to compose your mail - why would you
> want to trust your editing to the new kid on the block?)

I don't really care if you use a web browser or a kernel
debugger's peek/poke to compose mail.  It is about formats.
If the format is standardized you can upgrade without
worrying about the tool.  Unfortunately the email storage
format is not standardized.  And I also include things like
folders, message tags (read, replied, forwarded etc.) in
that.  Worse, MUAs of the day don't always document the
on-disk format or promise to not beak it in a new version.
So you are pretty much at the mercy of the MUA.  MH is no
different but it is relatively bug free and many of these
things have settled down.

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[John Stalker]

> (I assume you use ed to compose your mail - why would you
> want to trust your editing to the new kid on the block?)
> 
> Russ

I do this regularly, but not for the reason you mention.
On a dodgy network connection with odd terminal settings
ed has its advantages.  Besides, with the exception of
/bin/true and /bin/false ed has the most consistent user
interface I've ever encountered.

--
John Stalker
University of Dublin, Trinity College
School of Mathematics

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Marina Brown]

John Stalker wrote:

>>(I assume you use ed to compose your mail - why would you
>>want to trust your editing to the new kid on the block?)
>>
>>Russ
>>    
>>
>
>I do this regularly, but not for the reason you mention.
>On a dodgy network connection with odd terminal settings
>ed has its advantages.  Besides, with the exception of
>/bin/true and /bin/false ed has the most consistent user
>interface I've ever encountered.
>
>  
>
Not uncommon here for me to use ed or even cat to create
small files.

-- Marina Brown

>--
>John Stalker
>University of Dublin, Trinity College
>School of Mathematics
>
>  
>

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Richard Bilson]

On 2/7/06, John Stalker <stalker@maths.tcd.ie> wrote:
>
> Besides, with the exception of
> /bin/true and /bin/false ed has the most consistent user
> interface I've ever encountered.

Except for GNU ed, of course, which "helpfully" pauses after
every 24 lines of output when writing to a terminal. Helpful
indeed when using rio or 9term. And there's no way to turn
it off!

- Richard

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Brantley Coile]

compile the real ed from v7 or plan 9.

> On 2/7/06, John Stalker <stalker@maths.tcd.ie> wrote:
>>
>> Besides, with the exception of
>> /bin/true and /bin/false ed has the most consistent user
>> interface I've ever encountered.
> 
> Except for GNU ed, of course, which "helpfully" pauses after
> every 24 lines of output when writing to a terminal. Helpful
> indeed when using rio or 9term. And there's no way to turn
> it off!
> 
> - Richard

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Charles Forsyth]

> Except for GNU ed, of course, which "helpfully" pauses after
> every 24 lines of output when writing to a terminal. Helpful
> indeed when using rio or 9term. And there's no way to turn
> it off!

got to cope with those glass ttys; it annoys me too.  what's more, they've got audio and could make
it look and sound like a flexowriter, 2741 or tty37, all of which offered more lines and noise,
but as usual they are just no fun at all.

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Bruce Ellis]

i wrote something like that to annoy a class i was teaching.
some of the terminals had bells that could be turned down to
sound a bit like the decwriter.  it caused a bit of a stir when
i unleashed it (emulating 300 baud of course).

idle stuff.

brucee

On 2/8/06, Charles Forsyth <forsyth@terzarima.net> wrote:
> > Except for GNU ed, of course, which "helpfully" pauses after
> > every 24 lines of output when writing to a terminal. Helpful
> > indeed when using rio or 9term. And there's no way to turn
> > it off!
>
> got to cope with those glass ttys; it annoys me too.  what's more, they've got audio and could make
> it look and sound like a flexowriter, 2741 or tty37, all of which offered more lines and noise,
> but as usual they are just no fun at all.
>
>

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Brantley Coile]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 173 bytes --]

Has someone recorded the actual sounds of these terminals?
Also, the sounds of a model 33 TTY would be great to have.
I've been looking for a model 33 for quite a while.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3767 bytes --]

From: Bruce Ellis <bruce.ellis@gmail.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] acme + mh
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 09:21:08 +1100
Message-ID: <775b8d190602071421qfaee6cbga617223c1514a1ec@mail.gmail.com>

i wrote something like that to annoy a class i was teaching.
some of the terminals had bells that could be turned down to
sound a bit like the decwriter.  it caused a bit of a stir when
i unleashed it (emulating 300 baud of course).

idle stuff.

brucee

On 2/8/06, Charles Forsyth <forsyth@terzarima.net> wrote:
> > Except for GNU ed, of course, which "helpfully" pauses after
> > every 24 lines of output when writing to a terminal. Helpful
> > indeed when using rio or 9term. And there's no way to turn
> > it off!
>
> got to cope with those glass ttys; it annoys me too.  what's more, they've got audio and could make
> it look and sound like a flexowriter, 2741 or tty37, all of which offered more lines and noise,
> but as usual they are just no fun at all.
>
>

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Bruce Ellis]

i have a recording of a high-speed card-reader i did years ago.
it's pretty funny played loud in a good studio.

brucee

On 2/8/06, Brantley Coile <brantley@coraid.com> wrote:
> Has someone recorded the actual sounds of these terminals?
> Also, the sounds of a model 33 TTY would be great to have.
> I've been looking for a model 33 for quite a while.
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Bruce Ellis <bruce.ellis@gmail.com>
> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 09:21:08 +1100
> Subject: Re: [9fans] acme + mh
> i wrote something like that to annoy a class i was teaching.
> some of the terminals had bells that could be turned down to
> sound a bit like the decwriter.  it caused a bit of a stir when
> i unleashed it (emulating 300 baud of course).
>
> idle stuff.
>
> brucee
>
> On 2/8/06, Charles Forsyth <forsyth@terzarima.net> wrote:
> > > Except for GNU ed, of course, which "helpfully" pauses after
> > > every 24 lines of output when writing to a terminal. Helpful
> > > indeed when using rio or 9term. And there's no way to turn
> > > it off!
> >
> > got to cope with those glass ttys; it annoys me too.  what's more, they've got audio and could make
> > it look and sound like a flexowriter, 2741 or tty37, all of which offered more lines and noise,
> > but as usual they are just no fun at all.
> >
> >
>
>

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[rog]

> > (I assume you use ed to compose your mail - why would you
> > want to trust your editing to the new kid on the block?)
> > 
> > Russ
> 
> I do this regularly, but not for the reason you mention.
> On a dodgy network connection with odd terminal settings
> ed has its advantages.

it's also good from within a cpu connection over a slow
network link, because you get local editing (including hold
mode) - one hardly notices the network latency at all.

for small files, i often do:
,p
,c
then enter hold mode, paste in contents of file, edit to
heart's content, and exit hold mode, w and q.

it's a pity acme win doesn't support hold mode, otherwise
one could have undo too!

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Enrique Soriano]

Am I the only one using Evolution on a linux box? Why (besides the fact
that it's a xml-monster, but you are talking about Mac Mail and
Thunderbird)? Did I miss anything? I think Evolution is enough (good|
bad) for me.

q


El dom, 05-02-2006 a las 01:16 -0800, Bakul Shah escribió:
> > Bruce Ellis wrote:
> > > i agree.  squirrelmail has nevr been my friend.
> > 
> > BTW, w.r.t. mail, I think the answer so far, is, sadly, start using 
> > macos x mailer.
> > 
> > Ain't gonna work for me, I still need this linux laptop for work, and I 
> > can't lug around two laptops. So, it's Sirius Cybernetics Thunderbird 
> > for me.

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Ronald G Minnich]

Enrique Soriano wrote:
> Am I the only one using Evolution on a linux box? Why (besides the fact
> that it's a xml-monster, but you are talking about Mac Mail and
> Thunderbird)? Did I miss anything? I think Evolution is enough (good|
> bad) for me.

I was transferring my mailboxes from pine-land to evolution-land, and at 
some point evolution got an E2MANY. All I could guess was a missing 
close() somewhere in the deep tree of class libraries. That qualified it 
as a toy in my book.


Too much of the linux-land software is of this ilk: push it a bit, it 
falls over.

Anyway, I have taken us off-topic, sorry. I was mainly interested in 
whether there is a nicer mail environment for me on plan 9 than acme 
mail alone. It's just not quite there (for me). But it'd like to get off 
the stuff I use on linux becuase it is kind of painful at times.

Anyway, folks, thanks for the info :-)

ron

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[uriel]

> Anyway, I have taken us off-topic, sorry. I was mainly interested in 
> whether there is a nicer mail environment for me on plan 9 than acme 
> mail alone. It's just not quite there (for me).

What is wrong with acme/Mail?  I 'm not saying is even close to
perfect, but it would be nice to know what should/could be improved.

I think some people swear by nedmail(1), but it feels bit too rudimentary,
or maybe I'm just an acme junkie.

I always liked the design of boyd's mace, there is a port to Plan 9
here: http://www.sitetronics.com/www.insultant.net/code/9mace.bundle
but it doesn't seem to compile in 4th edition, I have somewhere in my
TODO list to get it running...  a reimplementation in Limbo is another
idea I have been toying with.

uriel

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Ronald G Minnich]

uriel@cat-v.org wrote:

> What is wrong with acme/Mail?  I 'm not saying is even close to
> perfect, but it would be nice to know what should/could be improved.

- want a more convenient way to name folders - i have a lot
- want threaded emails when viewing
- want a better compose mail interface than what I get with 'new'
- want a better directory for sending 'To:' -- e.g., a selection
	of all user names I have ever sent to, with some kind of
	interaction (auto-complete?)
- want a way to select a bunch of messages and say 'move them to this
	folder' -- but want to either type a name or something like
	this: select with left, click middle, move to folder name,
	click left-right (i.e. paste) -- in other words, the
	acme left+middle, move somewhere, left+right sequence so
	I can move messages
- want to be able to select a bunch of different messages, then
	forward them all
- want automated refiling rules -- I wonder, can I select a bunch of
	messages, say 'plumb', and run it through special
	mail-folder-plumber rules? Not sure.

So, to me, lots is missing, or I just don't know how to use it. But the 
foundation seems more solid.

ron

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Joel Salomon]

On 2/6/06, Ronald G Minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> wrote:
> > What is wrong with acme/Mail?  I 'm not saying is even close to
> > perfect, but it would be nice to know what should/could be improved.
>
> - want a more convenient way to name folders - i have a lot
<snipped list>

acme/Gmail?   ;)

--Joel

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[andrey mirtchovski]

gmail reads your mail.

> acme/Gmail?   ;)
>
> --Joel
>

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[geoff]

> - want a more convenient way to name folders - i have a lot

Could you elaborate?  You need to use Put rather than Save to create a
`folder' (alternate mailbox); is that your objection?  You should be
able to create hierarchies too; though I have done only a very limited
form of this.

> - want automated refiling rules

I do this in my pipeto filter.  Here's a shortened version of it:

#!/bin/rc
# pipeto local!$user /mail/box/$user/mbox - file incoming spam
rfork en
bind -c /mail/tmp /tmp

ml=/mail/box/geoff		# use your login name here, or get it from $1
check=/tmp/check.$pid
incoming=/tmp/incoming.$pid

cd $ml || exit 'no '^$ml

>$check
cat >$incoming
# -h: search header; -b: search header & body.
# delivers to $2 if nothing matches.
# note that filter locks my main mail box while it runs.
upas/filter -h $1 $2 <$incoming \
 '(^|\n)Content-Type: text/plain;charset="GB2312"' /dev/null \
 '(^|\n)From:.*[^a-z]enemy@([^!@]+\.)?fools\.com($|[>, ])' /dev/null \
 '^cse\.psu\.edu!(9fans)-admin$'	l-\1 \
 '(^|\n)([Tt]o|[Cc][Cc]|List-Id):.*[^a-z](9grid)([@.]nwn\.definitive\.org)' l-\3 \
 '([^!@]+\.)?(efax|eziba|itsj|musicmatch)\.com!' /dev/null \
 'collyer\.net!claudia'			$check \
 '^([^!]+\.)?(acm|ieee|maps|usenix)\.(org|ORG)!' l-\2 \
 '^([^!]+\.)?(acm)queue\.(com|COM)!'	l-\2 \
 '^([^!]+\.)?(comsoc|svtii)\.(org|ORG)!' l-ieee \
 '^([^!]+\.)?ACM\.(org|ORG)!'		l-acm \
 '(^|\n)[Ss]ubject: IEEE '		l-ieee \
 '(^|\n)([Tt]o|[Cc][Cc]):.*[	, "''<]geoff\.ieee@collyer.net' l-ieee \
 '(^|\n)([Tt]o|[Cc][Cc]):.*@listserv\.ieee\.org' l-ieee \
 '(^|\n)([Tt]o|[Cc][Cc]):.*@LISTSERV\.IEEE\.ORG' l-ieee \
 '^(sans)\.org!'			l-\1 \
 '(^|\n)([Tt]o|[Cc][Cc]|From):.*[	, "''<]((geoff|postmaster|mailer-daemon|MAILER-DAEMON)[@,.]|(geoff|postmaster|mailer-daemon|MAILER-DAEMON)$|[^	, ]+!(geoff|postmaster|mailer-daemon|MAILER-DAEMON))' $check \
 '^'					$check \


rv=$status
if (test -s $check) {	# message wasn't auto-filed, see if we know the sender
	./pipeto.token $* <$incoming
	rv=$status
}
rm -f $check $incoming
exit $rv

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Jason Gurtz]

On 2/5/2006 01:00, Ronald G Minnich wrote:

> Ain't gonna work for me, I still need this linux laptop for work, and I 
> can't lug around two laptops. So, it's Sirius Cybernetics Thunderbird 
> for me.

You may want to try the current 1.5 version, it fixes a lot of the bugs.
 ...unfortunately, not the one having to do with losing its place after
hitting delete sometimes.  That and threading that's not quite right are
my irks.

~Jason

-- 

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Marina Brown]

Bruce Ellis wrote:

>i agree.  squirrelmail has nevr been my friend.
>
>brucee
>  
>

At my old job i dodged squirrel by using OpenWebmail. Unfortunatly
the new setup there is squirrel - sigh...

---Marina Brown

>On 2/5/06, Ronald G Minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> wrote:
>  
>
>>Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>this made me think.  Is anyone working on a webmail interface? I
>>>looked at squirrelmail, but it's in php.
>>>      
>>>
>>oh, boy, it is SLOW. You can get gray hairs just reading mail in
>>squirrelmail.
>>
>>it's weird, our machines, and networks, and servers, and just about
>>every measure, are at least 100x, and sometimes 1000x, faster than they
>>used to be just 10 years ago. But the software is getting SLOWER. Now
>>there's a magic trick. (oh well, that rant has already been visited by
>>ousterhout, 10 years ago, when ... never mind).
>>
>>"No matter how fast I make the hardware, the software guys piss it away"
>>-- famous superomputer designer.
>>
>>
>>ron
>>
>>    
>>
>
>  
>

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Skip Tavakkolian]

did you try typing "audrey"?

Ronald G Minnich wrote:
> you type andrey, it 
> autocompletes in some strange way, it ignores the 'y' 

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Serge Gagnon]

On Fri, 2006-02-03 at 19:59 -0700, Ronald G Minnich wrote:
> If you do like it, what other mail clients have you used?

Exmh was the best MUA I have ever use. It is written in TCL, but no need
to know TCL to custumize it. It have autocompletion with no problem.
Since I moved my mail in an imap server, I'm using a lot of MUA that
never make me happy. I think that I change my MUA as often as I change
my underware :O
I'm currently searching something to sync my mail from an imap server
and mhdir on an other box and re-using exmh.

Sylpheed is not bad. 
-- 
GAGNON serge <serge.gagnon@b2b2c.ca>
PGP KEY-ID: 0xBBC1478F
PGP Fingerprint: B48B 4633 28F5 28F6 7A62 5650 69C8 E293 BBC1 478F
PPG Key: http://quenix2.dyndns.org:7777 | telnet quenix2.dyndns.org 7777

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Martin C. Atkins]

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:29:00 -0500 Serge Gagnon <serge.gagnon@b2b2c.ca> wrote:
>...
> Sylpheed is not bad. 

I've been using sylpheed-claws for about 4 years now. It has good
points, and bad points, but mostly it's OK. I had been wondering
about changing to t'bird, in order to get dynamic folders, but having
read this, maybe I'll stay put!

Martin

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[uriel]

> On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:29:00 -0500 Serge Gagnon <serge.gagnon@b2b2c.ca> wrote:
>>...
>> Sylpheed is not bad. 
> 
> I've been using sylpheed-claws for about 4 years now. It has good
> points, and bad points, but mostly it's OK. I had been wondering
> about changing to t'bird, in order to get dynamic folders, but having
> read this, maybe I'll stay put!
> 
> Martin

I am a (mostly) happy acme/Mail user, but I am always interested in
finding better ways to do things, where can I find all this mail
readers everyone is talking about?  I don't see any of them in
sources/contrib...

uriel

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Russ Cox]

> > On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:29:00 -0500 Serge Gagnon
> <serge.gagnon@b2b2c.ca> wrote:
> >>...
> >> Sylpheed is not bad.
> >
> > I've been using sylpheed-claws for about 4 years now.  It has good
> > points, and bad points, but mostly it's OK. I had been wondering
> > about changing to t'bird, in order to get dynamic folders, but
> having
> > read this, maybe I'll stay put!
> >
> > Martin
> 
> I am a (mostly) happy acme/Mail user, but I am always interested in
> finding better ways to do things, where can I find all this mail
> readers everyone is talking about?  I don't see any of them in
> sources/contrib...

believe it or not, there are operating systems besides plan 9.
these tend to have much more software available.

russ

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[uriel]

>> > On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:29:00 -0500 Serge Gagnon
>> <serge.gagnon@b2b2c.ca> wrote:
>> >>...
>> >> Sylpheed is not bad.
>> >
>> > I've been using sylpheed-claws for about 4 years now.  It has good
>> > points, and bad points, but mostly it's OK. I had been wondering
>> > about changing to t'bird, in order to get dynamic folders, but
>> having
>> > read this, maybe I'll stay put!
>> >
>> > Martin
>> 
>> I am a (mostly) happy acme/Mail user, but I am always interested in
>> finding better ways to do things, where can I find all this mail
>> readers everyone is talking about?  I don't see any of them in
>> sources/contrib...
> 
> believe it or not, there are operating systems besides plan 9.
> these tend to have much more software available.
And we all know that more is always better.

So why are we are using this OS that doesn't have so "much more
software available"?  or are we?  maybe I got lost and into the wrong
mailing list...

uriel

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Christopher Nielsen]

On 2/4/06, uriel@cat-v.org <uriel@cat-v.org> wrote:
> > believe it or not, there are operating systems besides plan 9.
> > these tend to have much more software available.
> And we all know that more is always better.
>
> So why are we are using this OS that doesn't have so "much more
> software available"?  or are we?  maybe I got lost and into the wrong
> mailing list...
>
> uriel

who died and made you moderator? i mean really. we talk about other
systems all the time.

--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Ronald G Minnich]

uriel@cat-v.org wrote:

> So why are we are using this OS that doesn't have so "much more
> software available"?  or are we?  maybe I got lost and into the wrong
> mailing list...

because it is interesting, but hardly perfect, and certainly lacking in 
software. I certainly can't do ECAD on Plan 9!

ron

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Christoph Lohmann]

Good day.

Am Fri, 03 Feb 2006 19:59:30 -0700
schrieb Ronald G Minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov>:

> how easy is it to read mail, refile mail, search mail, etc. Any
> comments on usability? If you do like it, what other mail clients have
> you used? Inquiring, happy-puppy-fatigued minds want to know!

I found a really new mail system out there! It stops Spam, is easy to use
and you don't need a special mail client for it. The mail gets to your
mail box in front of your house and you only need to collect it, when you
come back from work. The client consists of the ability to read and write
and - for newcomers - hand it to some employer of a post office, who will
describe, how to create a well-formed letter. That you have to pay money
for it, is for the global spam filter, that applies to the whole system.

Surely your country does have that too.

Sincerely,

Christoph

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[andrey mirtchovski]

> I found a really new mail system out there! It stops Spam, is easy to use
> and you don't need a special mail client for it. The mail gets to your
> mail box in front of your house and you only need to collect it, when you
> come back from work.

"Junk mail is an ongoing problem for the average American.
Here are facts and figures, as well as ways to reduce junk mail at home…

THE FACTS:
- The average American receives 677 sales pitches per year. This uses
28 billion gallons of water and more than 68 million trees!
- 44% of unsolicited junk mail is never read or opened. Most of this
waste isn't recycled.
- Eight months of the average American life is spent sifting through junk mail!"

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[David Leimbach]

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On 2/4/06, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchovski@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I found a really new mail system out there! It stops Spam, is easy to
> use
> > and you don't need a special mail client for it. The mail gets to your
> > mail box in front of your house and you only need to collect it, when
> you
> > come back from work.
>
> "Junk mail is an ongoing problem for the average American.
> Here are facts and figures, as well as ways to reduce junk mail at home…
>
> THE FACTS:
> - The average American receives 677 sales pitches per year. This uses
> 28 billion gallons of water and more than 68 million trees!
> - 44% of unsolicited junk mail is never read or opened. Most of this
> waste isn't recycled.



I am really glad my apartment complex has a mixed waste paper receptacle by
our mailboxes :)... That stuff lasts about 2 seconds in my hands.


- Eight months of the average American life is spent sifting through junk
> mail!"
>

And one seventh of everyone's life is spent on Monday... even more
depressing.

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Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Skip Tavakkolian]

Thanks for the depressing stats. For a time I got into the habit of
sending junk back in the self-addressed return envelopes that usually
accompany junk mail. Make sure to blackout any identifying
information on the envelop (e.g. barcode) I used to send newspaper
clippings or coupons found in other junk mail.

as for reading mail, very occasionally i need to read mail over slower
links (dialup); this is when a webmail or mail agent might win over
drawterm/acme/Mail. drawterm/nedmail is pretty reasonable, even at
those speeds.

andrey mirtchovski wrote:
> 
> "Junk mail is an ongoing problem for the average American.
> Here are facts and figures, as well as ways to reduce junk mail at home…
> 
> THE FACTS:
> - The average American receives 677 sales pitches per year. This uses
> 28 billion gallons of water and more than 68 million trees!
> - 44% of unsolicited junk mail is never read or opened. Most of this
> waste isn't recycled.
> - Eight months of the average American life is spent sifting through junk mail!"

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Bruce Ellis]

i find gmail to be a good spam meter.  just never read or delete
what goes in spam - then the spam folder count tells how many
you got in the last month (they get auto-trashed after a month).

it was 600 last may, after i'd been using gmail exclusively for a month.
it peaked at 2300 around xmas and is fell below 1700 this week.

my paper junk mail is fun to.  all my mail *should* go to my PO box.
so the stuf that goes to be residence is 95% junk and the mail box
is near the recycle bin (i did find a largish dividend cheque on
shares i didn't know i owned the other day - so i do a brief scan).

brucee

On 2/5/06, Skip Tavakkolian <9nut@9netics.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the depressing stats. For a time I got into the habit of
> sending junk back in the self-addressed return envelopes that usually
> accompany junk mail. Make sure to blackout any identifying
> information on the envelop (e.g. barcode) I used to send newspaper
> clippings or coupons found in other junk mail.
>
> as for reading mail, very occasionally i need to read mail over slower
> links (dialup); this is when a webmail or mail agent might win over
> drawterm/acme/Mail. drawterm/nedmail is pretty reasonable, even at
> those speeds.
>
> andrey mirtchovski wrote:
> >
> > "Junk mail is an ongoing problem for the average American.
> > Here are facts and figures, as well as ways to reduce junk mail at home…
> >
> > THE FACTS:
> > - The average American receives 677 sales pitches per year. This uses
> > 28 billion gallons of water and more than 68 million trees!
> > - 44% of unsolicited junk mail is never read or opened. Most of this
> > waste isn't recycled.
> > - Eight months of the average American life is spent sifting through junk mail!"
>

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Russ Cox]

I don't know that anyone is using the mh Mail program
but me, but I'm happy with it.  I made a few changes 
and bug fixes - http://swtch.com/Mail.  The major
drawback is that using mh commits you to one machine,
unless you do some clever synchronization behind 
the scenes.  I've been carrying my laptop around just to
read mail, which I hadn't done in years.  Anyway, I think
that the Mail+mh was a useful experiment but is not
a good long-term solution.

In spare cycles, I have been working on a new upas/fs
built around IMAP.  It holds all the message headers in
memory but not the bodies and attachments.  It will also
have search and moving messages between mailboxes,
so that you can run it without storing any mail locally.
(It will also cache information across runs to avoid 
re-downloading lots of stuff.)

Once all this is working it should not be hard to add back
in support for POP and local mailboxes but keep the 
other benefits.

Russ

$ 9p ls mail
---w--w--w- M 0 upas upas 0 Feb  4 09:22 ctl
d-r-xr-xr-x M 0 upas upas 0 Feb  4 09:22 Trash
d-r-xr-xr-x M 0 upas upas 0 Feb  4 09:22 .mailboxlist
d-r-xr-xr-x M 0 upas upas 0 Feb  4 09:22 Spam
d-r-xr-xr-x M 0 upas upas 0 Feb  4 09:22 P9P
d-r-xr-xr-x M 0 upas upas 0 Feb  4 09:22 'Bell Labs'
d-r-xr-xr-x M 0 upas upas 0 Feb  4 09:22 Archive
d-r-xr-xr-x M 0 upas upas 0 Feb  4 09:22 CVS
d-r-xr-xr-x M 0 upas upas 0 Feb  4 09:22 E-Biz
d-r-xr-xr-x M 0 upas upas 0 Feb  4 09:22 Sent
d-r-xr-xr-x M 0 upas upas 0 Feb  4 09:22 MIT
d-rwxrwxr-x M 0 upas upas 0 Feb  4 09:22 INBOX
$ 9p read mail/INBOX/80/info
unixdate 1139055507 Sat Feb  4 07:18:27 EST 2006
from 'New Account' NewAccounts@119.opnletters.com
to '' rsc@swtch.com
replyto 'New Account' NewAccounts@119.opnletters.com
date Sat, 4 Feb 2006 04:33:56 -0800 (PST)
sender 'New Account' NewAccounts@119.opnletters.com
messageid <200602041202.EAA33045@119.opnletters.com>
subject XBOX 360 - Offer Confirmation #048Q-VXEC6795 for rsc@swtch.com 
type text/html
lines 64
$ 

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Tim Wiess]

> I don't know that anyone is using the mh Mail program
> but me, but I'm happy with it.  I made a few changes 
> and bug fixes - http://swtch.com/Mail.  The major
> drawback is that using mh commits you to one machine,
> unless you do some clever synchronization behind 
> the scenes.  I've been carrying my laptop around just to
> read mail, which I hadn't done in years.  Anyway, I think
> that the Mail+mh was a useful experiment but is not
> a good long-term solution.

    i've always used mh for mail on unix. i like it, as it gives you
    many of the same benefits to having a fs interface to your mail
    that upas/fs does.

    tim

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Gabriel Ivanes]

On 2/6/06, Tim Wiess <tim@nop.cx> wrote:
> > I don't know that anyone is using the mh Mail program
> > but me, but I'm happy with it.  I made a few changes
> > and bug fixes - http://swtch.com/Mail.  The major
> > drawback is that using mh commits you to one machine,
> > unless you do some clever synchronization behind
> > the scenes.  I've been carrying my laptop around just to
> > read mail, which I hadn't done in years.  Anyway, I think
> > that the Mail+mh was a useful experiment but is not
> > a good long-term solution.
>
>     i've always used mh for mail on unix. i like it, as it gives you
>     many of the same benefits to having a fs interface to your mail
>     that upas/fs does.
>
>     tim
>

The saner the better ?

gab

--
"I know no way of judging the future but by the past."      Patrick Henry

"You can never plan the future by the past."      Edmund Burke

Re: [9fans] acme + mh

[Marina Brown]

Ronald G Minnich wrote:

> how is it working out for people? I have been using Sirius Cybernetics 
> Thunderbird, which was supposed to be some kind of Miracle Mail 
> program, and am finding it to be less than perfect. Actually, it kinda 
> sucks. It has an autocomplete that is wrong in a very annoying 
> fashion, since it is usually right, but goes wrong in very strange 
> ways, and your mail to andrey goes to andrew before you know it -- you 
> type andrey, it autocompletes in some strange way, it ignores the 'y' 
> -- I've tested this a few times. Happy People Movers have nothing on 
> the Sirius Cybernetics Thunderbird mail program!
>
> It has a way of deciding that once the network is gone, and you send, 
> you can never retry the send again in some cases without exiting the 
> damned thing (it just happened again while editing this message: "the 
> mail server is gone. It won't be back ever again. It's hopeless. I 
> won't even try. You humans really enjoy this kind of thing, don't you? 
> I'm so depressed. I'll just go in a corner and rust" -- I wish!).
>
> The list goes on, but I am overall finding that it is a very 
> happy-puppy like piece of software, anxious to get in there and do 
> things for you, making you trip over it, and most of the time making 
> you want to tell it to shut up and go hide in a corner before you get 
> out a rolled-up newspaper.
>
> I especially like the way, when viewing messages, you hit 'delete' to 
> kill the message and move on, and it somehow loses track of what it 
> was doing, so it's no longer pointing to any message, and you have to 
> grab the mouse and find a message to select so you can proceeed. 
> Weird. The gnome library seems to have a lot of this strange corner 
> case behavior. (the list goes on .... it's interesting to have to 
> resize ethereal windows so you can get the vertical scrollbar to 
> realize that you just traced 10,000 packets, and want to see more than 
> the 12 currently shown)
>
> What I want is a mail reader that will ... oh, never mind, I think I 
> want the macos x mail reader. But who knows, maybe that's as bad as 
> all the others.
>
> how easy is it to read mail, refile mail, search mail, etc. Any 
> comments on usability? If you do like it, what other mail clients have 
> you used? Inquiring, happy-puppy-fatigued minds want to know!
>
> thanks
>
> ron
>
>
>
At work and for my lists i use mozilla thunderbird which sucks - but 
less than other
stuff that can view html. I wish i could turn off all fonts. I hate fonts.

For my personal mail it's pine, which sucks but feels like home.

-- Marina Brown