[TUHS] Documentation for Sys-V basic interpreter

[TUHS] Documentation for Sys-V basic interpreter

[KenUnix]

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Hi.

Was any documentation ever done for the basic interpreter
that was on System-V?

Things like allowed keywords or special keywords.

Thanks
Ken


-- 
WWL 📚 Okey Dokey OK Boss

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[TUHS] Documentation for Sys-V basic interpreter

[josh]

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On Friday, May 19, 2023, KenUnix <ken.unix.guy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Was any documentation ever done for the basic interpreter
> that was on System-V?
>

Not exactly what you’re asking for but you’ll probably find these videos
interesting / relevant:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LZUMNZTUJos&feature=youtu.be

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ELICIa3L22o&feature=youtu.be

Dave (the creator of the videos) shared these on TUHS some time ago.

Josh

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[TUHS] Re: Documentation for Sys-V basic interpreter

[Clem Cole]

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Sure the sources and a man page or two exists.  Ken Thompson wrote bas(1)
and bs(1) was Dick Haight - which IIRC correctly, was ~78/79.  Haight's
program which would go out as part of System V ---  was first distributed
outside of the labs in System III. I would have expected man pages in
either source distribution.  I don't have those online to check and I don't
tend to bother with System V as its historically less interesting.

That said, one thing I do remember is that the primary version of bs from
the PWB family (certainly the one we had at UCB) was a little different
from the version I saw in a couple of the BTL sites later.  My >>memory<<
here (which could be flawed) was the CB Unix folks added a few features --
like a set of plotting function that Whippany picked up etc.  I only
remember this because we were working with a number of different places
(from different AT&T labs to IBM, Intel, NS, HP, Tek, etc.) when we
developed the UCB CAD tools.   I remember and an incident where one of the
Bell folks we had at UCB had brought some thing with him that relied on the
strange bs dialec -- i.e. did not run on the UCB CAD systems - which had
the version of PWB. It was close, but made calls to some extra stuff (plot
and the like IIRC).

My suggestion, as always start in the TUHS archives and look there -- that
will be the most complete of what was released. That said,  Disk4 of Kirk's
set will have all the stuff we had in /usr/local (like cpio etc..) on the
UCB systems.  FWIW: I'm fairly sure the sources and the man pages will be
with Kirk's trove. But I don't believe BSD ever released it, as it was not
part of V7, so you will not find it in a formal BSD distribution tape.

ᐧ

On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 11:07 AM KenUnix <ken.unix.guy@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi.
>
> Was any documentation ever done for the basic interpreter
> that was on System-V?
>
> Things like allowed keywords or special keywords.
>
> Thanks
> Ken
>
>
> --
> WWL 📚 Okey Dokey OK Boss
>
>
>

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[TUHS] Re: Documentation for Sys-V basic interpreter

[Clem Cole]

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s/which had the version of PWB/which had the version of bs(1) from PWB
running on 4.xBSD/
ᐧ

On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 4:15 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

> Sure the sources and a man page or two exists.  Ken Thompson wrote bas(1)
> and bs(1) was Dick Haight - which IIRC correctly, was ~78/79.  Haight's
> program which would go out as part of System V ---  was first distributed
> outside of the labs in System III. I would have expected man pages in
> either source distribution.  I don't have those online to check and I don't
> tend to bother with System V as its historically less interesting.
>
> That said, one thing I do remember is that the primary version of bs from
> the PWB family (certainly the one we had at UCB) was a little different
> from the version I saw in a couple of the BTL sites later.  My >>memory<<
> here (which could be flawed) was the CB Unix folks added a few features --
> like a set of plotting function that Whippany picked up etc.  I only
> remember this because we were working with a number of different places
> (from different AT&T labs to IBM, Intel, NS, HP, Tek, etc.) when we
> developed the UCB CAD tools.   I remember and an incident where one of the
> Bell folks we had at UCB had brought some thing with him that relied on the
> strange bs dialec -- i.e. did not run on the UCB CAD systems - which had
> the version of PWB. It was close, but made calls to some extra stuff (plot
> and the like IIRC).
>
> My suggestion, as always start in the TUHS archives and look there -- that
> will be the most complete of what was released. That said,  Disk4 of Kirk's
> set will have all the stuff we had in /usr/local (like cpio etc..) on the
> UCB systems.  FWIW: I'm fairly sure the sources and the man pages will be
> with Kirk's trove. But I don't believe BSD ever released it, as it was
> not part of V7, so you will not find it in a formal BSD distribution tape.
>
> ᐧ
>
> On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 11:07 AM KenUnix <ken.unix.guy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi.
>>
>> Was any documentation ever done for the basic interpreter
>> that was on System-V?
>>
>> Things like allowed keywords or special keywords.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Ken
>>
>>
>> --
>> WWL 📚 Okey Dokey OK Boss
>>
>>
>>

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[TUHS] Re: Documentation for Sys-V basic interpreter

[segaloco via TUHS]

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The earliest documentation I can spot is the bs(1) man page dated November, 1979 in the CB-UNIX 2.3 Manual (although the page itself is tagged CB-UNIX 2.1.)

This appears to be the same lineage as what we see in the commercial PWB releases, however, the earliest backstop I have on that is June, 1980 with 3.0. PWB 1.0 contains no such page, and unfortunately the situation right around 1979 is still a bit fuzzy re: PWB 2.0 and UNIX/TS. That said, the preface to the CB-UNIX 2.3 manual (which is also a 2.1 page from 1979) pays no credit to the UNIX/TS 1.1 nor PWB 2.0 manuals the way the PWB 3.0 preface does, so perhaps bs(1) started in CB?

Looking forward, this utility persists up til SVR2, but is gone as of the SVR3 globe-with-UNIX-lines manual series. Curiously, it was also omitted from the 3B20 PWB 4.1 manual, but the 5.0 and subsequent System V 1 and 2 manuals don't have a hardware-exclusivity masthead mark, so this was likely made portable/ported to 3B20 sometime around '81. In any case, none of the man pages in any of these manuals indicate any memoranda or other papers in the SEE ALSO. Doesn't mean one doesn't exist, but points to the likelihood that the manpage is really all you get documentation-wise. Even the BTL versions don't mention any papers.

In any case, that's what I could turn up, there is a bs(1) manpage in the following versions:

- 1979 - CB-UNIX 2.1
- 1980 - PWB 3.0/System III
- 1981 - PWB 4.x (Non 3B20)
- 1981 - CB-UNIX 2.3 (unmodified from 2.1)
- 1982 - PWB 5.0
- 1983 - System V
- 1984 - System V Release 2

Hope that helps. All of these save the 4.x version should be in various places around. I don't remember seeing anything outrageously different between 3.0 and 5.0, so it very well may be that the 4.x manpage could be easily synthesized with a diff, but I don't have a physical page to prove anything.

- Matt G.
------- Original Message -------
On Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 8:06 AM, KenUnix <ken.unix.guy@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi.
>
> Was any documentation ever done for the basic interpreter
> that was on System-V?
>
> Things like allowed keywords or special keywords.
>
> Thanks
> Ken
>
> --
>
> WWL 📚 Okey Dokey OK Boss

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[TUHS] Re: Documentation for Sys-V basic interpreter

[KenUnix]

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Thanks to all for the input!

Ken

On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 4:19 PM segaloco <segaloco@protonmail.com> wrote:

> The earliest documentation I can spot is the bs(1) man page dated
> November, 1979 in the CB-UNIX 2.3 Manual (although the page itself is
> tagged CB-UNIX 2.1.)
>
> This appears to be the same lineage as what we see in the commercial PWB
> releases, however, the earliest backstop I have on that is June, 1980 with
> 3.0. PWB 1.0 contains no such page, and unfortunately the situation right
> around 1979 is still a bit fuzzy re: PWB 2.0 and UNIX/TS. That said, the
> preface to the CB-UNIX 2.3 manual (which is also a 2.1 page from 1979) pays
> no credit to the UNIX/TS 1.1 nor PWB 2.0 manuals the way the PWB 3.0
> preface does, so perhaps bs(1) started in CB?
>
> Looking forward, this utility persists up til SVR2, but is gone as of the
> SVR3 globe-with-UNIX-lines manual series. Curiously, it was also omitted
> from the 3B20 PWB 4.1 manual, but the 5.0 and subsequent System V 1 and 2
> manuals don't have a hardware-exclusivity masthead mark, so this was likely
> made portable/ported to 3B20 sometime around '81. In any case, none of the
> man pages in any of these manuals indicate any memoranda or other papers in
> the SEE ALSO. Doesn't mean one doesn't exist, but points to the likelihood
> that the manpage is really all you get documentation-wise. Even the BTL
> versions don't mention any papers.
>
> In any case, that's what I could turn up, there is a bs(1) manpage in the
> following versions:
>
> - 1979 - CB-UNIX 2.1
> - 1980 - PWB 3.0/System III
> - 1981 - PWB 4.x (Non 3B20)
> - 1981 - CB-UNIX 2.3 (unmodified from 2.1)
> - 1982 - PWB 5.0
> - 1983 - System V
> - 1984 - System V Release 2
>
> Hope that helps. All of these save the 4.x version should be in various
> places around. I don't remember seeing anything outrageously different
> between 3.0 and 5.0, so it very well may be that the 4.x manpage could be
> easily synthesized with a diff, but I don't have a physical page to prove
> anything.
>
> - Matt G.
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 8:06 AM, KenUnix <ken.unix.guy@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi.
>
> Was any documentation ever done for the basic interpreter
> that was on System-V?
>
> Things like allowed keywords or special keywords.
>
> Thanks
> Ken
>
>
> --
> WWL 📚 Okey Dokey OK Boss
>
>
>
>

-- 
End of line
JOB TERMINATED Okey Dokey OK Boss

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[TUHS] Re: Documentation for Sys-V basic interpreter

[Clem Cole]

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Matt.

Does the CB man page match the PWB 3 version?   I may be mixing something
up in my memory so I ask because I seem to remember there were some
differences between some scripts that came from different places ( We did a
lot with graphics in the cad group and when we had tools that came from
other places it was often graphics that bit us which is why I think that
sticks in my mind).   I’ll have to try looking at the version we had at UCB
in a bit.

As for doc the only thing I remember was a man page for the tool.

Clem

On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 4:19 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:

> The earliest documentation I can spot is the bs(1) man page dated
> November, 1979 in the CB-UNIX 2.3 Manual (although the page itself is
> tagged CB-UNIX 2.1.)
>
> This appears to be the same lineage as what we see in the commercial PWB
> releases, however, the earliest backstop I have on that is June, 1980 with
> 3.0. PWB 1.0 contains no such page, and unfortunately the situation right
> around 1979 is still a bit fuzzy re: PWB 2.0 and UNIX/TS. That said, the
> preface to the CB-UNIX 2.3 manual (which is also a 2.1 page from 1979) pays
> no credit to the UNIX/TS 1.1 nor PWB 2.0 manuals the way the PWB 3.0
> preface does, so perhaps bs(1) started in CB?
>
> Looking forward, this utility persists up til SVR2, but is gone as of the
> SVR3 globe-with-UNIX-lines manual series. Curiously, it was also omitted
> from the 3B20 PWB 4.1 manual, but the 5.0 and subsequent System V 1 and 2
> manuals don't have a hardware-exclusivity masthead mark, so this was likely
> made portable/ported to 3B20 sometime around '81. In any case, none of the
> man pages in any of these manuals indicate any memoranda or other papers in
> the SEE ALSO. Doesn't mean one doesn't exist, but points to the likelihood
> that the manpage is really all you get documentation-wise. Even the BTL
> versions don't mention any papers.
>
> In any case, that's what I could turn up, there is a bs(1) manpage in the
> following versions:
>
> - 1979 - CB-UNIX 2.1
> - 1980 - PWB 3.0/System III
> - 1981 - PWB 4.x (Non 3B20)
> - 1981 - CB-UNIX 2.3 (unmodified from 2.1)
> - 1982 - PWB 5.0
> - 1983 - System V
> - 1984 - System V Release 2
>
> Hope that helps. All of these save the 4.x version should be in various
> places around. I don't remember seeing anything outrageously different
> between 3.0 and 5.0, so it very well may be that the 4.x manpage could be
> easily synthesized with a diff, but I don't have a physical page to prove
> anything.
>
> - Matt G.
> ------- Original Message -------
>
> On Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 8:06 AM, KenUnix <ken.unix.guy@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi.
>
> Was any documentation ever done for the basic interpreter
> that was on System-V?
>
> Things like allowed keywords or special keywords.
>
> Thanks
> Ken
>
>
> --
> WWL 📚 Okey Dokey OK Boss
>
>
>
> --
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual

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[TUHS] Re: Documentation for Sys-V basic interpreter

[segaloco via TUHS]

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Here are raw[1] and nroff-d[2] restorations of the CB-UNIX 2.1 stamped page:

[1] - https://pastebin.com/EAjMyvSn
[2] - https://pastebin.com/Dgh1g5q8

According to a diff with the 3.0 manpage in the tree[3], these are some changes of note from CB 2.1 to PWB 3.0:

- Added ibase, obase
- Added elif and using a single fi to end an if elif else chain
- Added return for returning from function calls
- Added support for tables (arrays based on key-value pairs)
- The plot(11) routine swaps the corners about the y axis
- A bug is removed indicating a limit of 250 lines, 250 variables, and artificial truncation of names to six characters.

Unfortunately the CB 2.1 page on the archive[4] doesn't indicate anything of particular note that wasn't pretty much the same in PWB 3.0.

[3] - https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=SysIII/usr/src/man/man1/bs.1
[4] - https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/USDL/CB_Unix/cbunix_man1_01.pdf (Page 32-39)

- Matt G.
------- Original Message -------
On Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 5:31 PM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

> Matt.
>
> Does the CB man page match the PWB 3 version? I may be mixing something up in my memory so I ask because I seem to remember there were some differences between some scripts that came from different places ( We did a lot with graphics in the cad group and when we had tools that came from other places it was often graphics that bit us which is why I think that sticks in my mind). I’ll have to try looking at the version we had at UCB in a bit.
>
> As for doc the only thing I remember was a man page for the tool.
>
> Clem
>
> On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 4:19 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
>
>> The earliest documentation I can spot is the bs(1) man page dated November, 1979 in the CB-UNIX 2.3 Manual (although the page itself is tagged CB-UNIX 2.1.)
>>
>> This appears to be the same lineage as what we see in the commercial PWB releases, however, the earliest backstop I have on that is June, 1980 with 3.0. PWB 1.0 contains no such page, and unfortunately the situation right around 1979 is still a bit fuzzy re: PWB 2.0 and UNIX/TS. That said, the preface to the CB-UNIX 2.3 manual (which is also a 2.1 page from 1979) pays no credit to the UNIX/TS 1.1 nor PWB 2.0 manuals the way the PWB 3.0 preface does, so perhaps bs(1) started in CB?
>>
>> Looking forward, this utility persists up til SVR2, but is gone as of the SVR3 globe-with-UNIX-lines manual series. Curiously, it was also omitted from the 3B20 PWB 4.1 manual, but the 5.0 and subsequent System V 1 and 2 manuals don't have a hardware-exclusivity masthead mark, so this was likely made portable/ported to 3B20 sometime around '81. In any case, none of the man pages in any of these manuals indicate any memoranda or other papers in the SEE ALSO. Doesn't mean one doesn't exist, but points to the likelihood that the manpage is really all you get documentation-wise. Even the BTL versions don't mention any papers.
>>
>> In any case, that's what I could turn up, there is a bs(1) manpage in the following versions:
>>
>> - 1979 - CB-UNIX 2.1
>> - 1980 - PWB 3.0/System III
>> - 1981 - PWB 4.x (Non 3B20)
>> - 1981 - CB-UNIX 2.3 (unmodified from 2.1)
>> - 1982 - PWB 5.0
>> - 1983 - System V
>> - 1984 - System V Release 2
>>
>> Hope that helps. All of these save the 4.x version should be in various places around. I don't remember seeing anything outrageously different between 3.0 and 5.0, so it very well may be that the 4.x manpage could be easily synthesized with a diff, but I don't have a physical page to prove anything.
>>
>> - Matt G.
>> ------- Original Message -------
>>
>> On Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 8:06 AM, KenUnix <ken.unix.guy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi.
>>>
>>> Was any documentation ever done for the basic interpreter
>>> that was on System-V?
>>>
>>> Things like allowed keywords or special keywords.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Ken
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> WWL 📚 Okey Dokey OK Boss
>
> --
>
> Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual

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[TUHS] Re: Documentation for Sys-V basic interpreter

[Clem Cole]

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Matt - again, thank you.  I just did a diff between the man pages from
the System III version on TUHS and the version I have from Kirk's CD set
[which was what we had a UCB].  The System III version looks different from
the UCB man page (*e.g*., no plot() functions and a few other things).
 So, I did a little checking last night and wrote a couple of emails to
some folks.  The evidence I have found does seem to me that Dick Haight wrote
the original bs(1) command.  Note that Dolotta, Haight, Piskorik, and
Mashey were the original PWB 1.0 core team, as it were.   But ... looking
at my printed PWB 1.0 manual, there does not seem to be a bs(1) man page.
However, we know that while PWB was never released officially outside of
the Bell System - although parts of PWB 'leaked' to MIT, CMU, and UCB
[probably via the OYOC's -- Noel's MIT system is clearly influenced by PWB
1.0 and I know the CMU system we had was also thanks to folks like tjk and
Phil Karn].   The point is that many/most of the commands from PWB [with
SCCS being the most important], if not the full kernel itself, arrived in
those places.

So a semi-educated >>WAG<< ...  with the evidence being that

   1. Haight's bs(1) was different from Ken's bas(1) which was in V7,
   2. bs(1) is on Kirk's CD (disk4),
   3. we know parts of PWB leaked from Bell,
   4. I personally remember having it at UCB;

Kirk's version at UCB predated the System III/V one you have, and it is
likely an either Haight version from PWB 1.0 somehow.    We know a Dale and
their team in Columbus not only wrote their own enhancements, but they also
took the source from all over: Research, PWB, and some of the
universities.    The CB/UNIX folks likely updated bs(1), and later, when
some of the CB UNIX enhancement made it back to Summit and in PWB 2, 3, and
the like - that's where the updated version appeared.

Clem
ᐧ

On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 12:29 AM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:

> Here are raw[1] and nroff-d[2] restorations of the CB-UNIX 2.1 stamped
> page:
>
> [1] - https://pastebin.com/EAjMyvSn
> [2] - https://pastebin.com/Dgh1g5q8
>
> According to a diff with the 3.0 manpage in the tree[3], these are some
> changes of note from CB 2.1 to PWB 3.0:
>
> - Added ibase, obase
> - Added elif and using a single fi to end an if elif else chain
> - Added return for returning from function calls
> - Added support for tables (arrays based on key-value pairs)
> - The plot(11) routine swaps the corners about the y axis
> - A bug is removed indicating a limit of 250 lines, 250 variables, and
> artificial truncation of names to six characters.
>
> Unfortunately the CB 2.1 page on the archive[4] doesn't indicate anything
> of particular note that wasn't pretty much the same in PWB 3.0.
>
> [3] -
> https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=SysIII/usr/src/man/man1/bs.1
> [4] -
> https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/USDL/CB_Unix/cbunix_man1_01.pdf
> (Page 32-39)
>
> - Matt G.
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 5:31 PM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>
> Matt.
>
> Does the CB man page match the PWB 3 version? I may be mixing something up
> in my memory so I ask because I seem to remember there were some
> differences between some scripts that came from different places ( We did a
> lot with graphics in the cad group and when we had tools that came from
> other places it was often graphics that bit us which is why I think that
> sticks in my mind). I’ll have to try looking at the version we had at UCB
> in a bit.
>
> As for doc the only thing I remember was a man page for the tool.
>
> Clem
>
> On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 4:19 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
>
>> The earliest documentation I can spot is the bs(1) man page dated
>> November, 1979 in the CB-UNIX 2.3 Manual (although the page itself is
>> tagged CB-UNIX 2.1.)
>>
>> This appears to be the same lineage as what we see in the commercial PWB
>> releases, however, the earliest backstop I have on that is June, 1980 with
>> 3.0. PWB 1.0 contains no such page, and unfortunately the situation right
>> around 1979 is still a bit fuzzy re: PWB 2.0 and UNIX/TS. That said, the
>> preface to the CB-UNIX 2.3 manual (which is also a 2.1 page from 1979) pays
>> no credit to the UNIX/TS 1.1 nor PWB 2.0 manuals the way the PWB 3.0
>> preface does, so perhaps bs(1) started in CB?
>>
>> Looking forward, this utility persists up til SVR2, but is gone as of the
>> SVR3 globe-with-UNIX-lines manual series. Curiously, it was also omitted
>> from the 3B20 PWB 4.1 manual, but the 5.0 and subsequent System V 1 and 2
>> manuals don't have a hardware-exclusivity masthead mark, so this was likely
>> made portable/ported to 3B20 sometime around '81. In any case, none of the
>> man pages in any of these manuals indicate any memoranda or other papers in
>> the SEE ALSO. Doesn't mean one doesn't exist, but points to the likelihood
>> that the manpage is really all you get documentation-wise. Even the BTL
>> versions don't mention any papers.
>>
>> In any case, that's what I could turn up, there is a bs(1) manpage in the
>> following versions:
>>
>> - 1979 - CB-UNIX 2.1
>> - 1980 - PWB 3.0/System III
>> - 1981 - PWB 4.x (Non 3B20)
>> - 1981 - CB-UNIX 2.3 (unmodified from 2.1)
>> - 1982 - PWB 5.0
>> - 1983 - System V
>> - 1984 - System V Release 2
>>
>> Hope that helps. All of these save the 4.x version should be in various
>> places around. I don't remember seeing anything outrageously different
>> between 3.0 and 5.0, so it very well may be that the 4.x manpage could be
>> easily synthesized with a diff, but I don't have a physical page to prove
>> anything.
>>
>> - Matt G.
>> ------- Original Message -------
>>
>> On Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 8:06 AM, KenUnix <ken.unix.guy@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi.
>>
>> Was any documentation ever done for the basic interpreter
>> that was on System-V?
>>
>> Things like allowed keywords or special keywords.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Ken
>>
>>
>> --
>> WWL 📚 Okey Dokey OK Boss
>>
>>
>>
>> --
> Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
>
>
>

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[TUHS] Re: Documentation for Sys-V basic interpreter

[KenUnix]

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Again, thanks for the help. It is appreciated.

Ken

On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 9:44 AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

> Matt - again, thank you.  I just did a diff between the man pages from
> the System III version on TUHS and the version I have from Kirk's CD set
> [which was what we had a UCB].  The System III version looks different from
> the UCB man page (*e.g*., no plot() functions and a few other things).
>  So, I did a little checking last night and wrote a couple of emails to
> some folks.  The evidence I have found does seem to me that Dick Haight wrote
> the original bs(1) command.  Note that Dolotta, Haight, Piskorik, and
> Mashey were the original PWB 1.0 core team, as it were.   But ... looking
> at my printed PWB 1.0 manual, there does not seem to be a bs(1) man page.
> However, we know that while PWB was never released officially outside of
> the Bell System - although parts of PWB 'leaked' to MIT, CMU, and UCB
> [probably via the OYOC's -- Noel's MIT system is clearly influenced by PWB
> 1.0 and I know the CMU system we had was also thanks to folks like tjk and
> Phil Karn].   The point is that many/most of the commands from PWB [with
> SCCS being the most important], if not the full kernel itself, arrived in
> those places.
>
> So a semi-educated >>WAG<< ...  with the evidence being that
>
>    1. Haight's bs(1) was different from Ken's bas(1) which was in V7,
>    2. bs(1) is on Kirk's CD (disk4),
>    3. we know parts of PWB leaked from Bell,
>    4. I personally remember having it at UCB;
>
> Kirk's version at UCB predated the System III/V one you have, and it is
> likely an either Haight version from PWB 1.0 somehow.    We know a Dale and
> their team in Columbus not only wrote their own enhancements, but they
> also took the source from all over: Research, PWB, and some of the
> universities.    The CB/UNIX folks likely updated bs(1), and later, when
> some of the CB UNIX enhancement made it back to Summit and in PWB 2, 3, and
> the like - that's where the updated version appeared.
>
> Clem
> ᐧ
>
> On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 12:29 AM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
>
>> Here are raw[1] and nroff-d[2] restorations of the CB-UNIX 2.1 stamped
>> page:
>>
>> [1] - https://pastebin.com/EAjMyvSn
>> [2] - https://pastebin.com/Dgh1g5q8
>>
>> According to a diff with the 3.0 manpage in the tree[3], these are some
>> changes of note from CB 2.1 to PWB 3.0:
>>
>> - Added ibase, obase
>> - Added elif and using a single fi to end an if elif else chain
>> - Added return for returning from function calls
>> - Added support for tables (arrays based on key-value pairs)
>> - The plot(11) routine swaps the corners about the y axis
>> - A bug is removed indicating a limit of 250 lines, 250 variables, and
>> artificial truncation of names to six characters.
>>
>> Unfortunately the CB 2.1 page on the archive[4] doesn't indicate anything
>> of particular note that wasn't pretty much the same in PWB 3.0.
>>
>> [3] -
>> https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=SysIII/usr/src/man/man1/bs.1
>> [4] -
>> https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/USDL/CB_Unix/cbunix_man1_01.pdf
>> (Page 32-39)
>>
>> - Matt G.
>> ------- Original Message -------
>> On Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 5:31 PM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>>
>> Matt.
>>
>> Does the CB man page match the PWB 3 version? I may be mixing something
>> up in my memory so I ask because I seem to remember there were some
>> differences between some scripts that came from different places ( We did a
>> lot with graphics in the cad group and when we had tools that came from
>> other places it was often graphics that bit us which is why I think that
>> sticks in my mind). I’ll have to try looking at the version we had at UCB
>> in a bit.
>>
>> As for doc the only thing I remember was a man page for the tool.
>>
>> Clem
>>
>> On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 4:19 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
>>
>>> The earliest documentation I can spot is the bs(1) man page dated
>>> November, 1979 in the CB-UNIX 2.3 Manual (although the page itself is
>>> tagged CB-UNIX 2.1.)
>>>
>>> This appears to be the same lineage as what we see in the commercial PWB
>>> releases, however, the earliest backstop I have on that is June, 1980 with
>>> 3.0. PWB 1.0 contains no such page, and unfortunately the situation right
>>> around 1979 is still a bit fuzzy re: PWB 2.0 and UNIX/TS. That said, the
>>> preface to the CB-UNIX 2.3 manual (which is also a 2.1 page from 1979) pays
>>> no credit to the UNIX/TS 1.1 nor PWB 2.0 manuals the way the PWB 3.0
>>> preface does, so perhaps bs(1) started in CB?
>>>
>>> Looking forward, this utility persists up til SVR2, but is gone as of
>>> the SVR3 globe-with-UNIX-lines manual series. Curiously, it was also
>>> omitted from the 3B20 PWB 4.1 manual, but the 5.0 and subsequent System V 1
>>> and 2 manuals don't have a hardware-exclusivity masthead mark, so this was
>>> likely made portable/ported to 3B20 sometime around '81. In any case, none
>>> of the man pages in any of these manuals indicate any memoranda or other
>>> papers in the SEE ALSO. Doesn't mean one doesn't exist, but points to the
>>> likelihood that the manpage is really all you get documentation-wise. Even
>>> the BTL versions don't mention any papers.
>>>
>>> In any case, that's what I could turn up, there is a bs(1) manpage in
>>> the following versions:
>>>
>>> - 1979 - CB-UNIX 2.1
>>> - 1980 - PWB 3.0/System III
>>> - 1981 - PWB 4.x (Non 3B20)
>>> - 1981 - CB-UNIX 2.3 (unmodified from 2.1)
>>> - 1982 - PWB 5.0
>>> - 1983 - System V
>>> - 1984 - System V Release 2
>>>
>>> Hope that helps. All of these save the 4.x version should be in various
>>> places around. I don't remember seeing anything outrageously different
>>> between 3.0 and 5.0, so it very well may be that the 4.x manpage could be
>>> easily synthesized with a diff, but I don't have a physical page to prove
>>> anything.
>>>
>>> - Matt G.
>>> ------- Original Message -------
>>>
>>> On Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 8:06 AM, KenUnix <ken.unix.guy@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi.
>>>
>>> Was any documentation ever done for the basic interpreter
>>> that was on System-V?
>>>
>>> Things like allowed keywords or special keywords.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Ken
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> WWL 📚 Okey Dokey OK Boss
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>> Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
>>
>>
>>

-- 
End of line
JOB TERMINATED Okey Dokey OK Boss

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[TUHS] Re: Documentation for Sys-V basic interpreter

[Jon Forrest]

On 5/20/2023 6:43 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
> However, we know that while PWB was never 
> released officially outside of the Bell System

I've mentioned this before. We had PWB at Ford Aerospace in
the late 1970s. This was in the group that Mike Padlipsky and
John Nagle were part of.

Jon

[TUHS] Re: Documentation for Sys-V basic interpreter

[Tom Perrine]

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I was at Logicon - we inherited some of that - including the PWB install -
when we continued their KSOS work.

That would have been around 1982-1983; when I got there the KSOS work
(hosted on PWB) was already underway.

If I could find that darned Modula compiler - I've got the original KSOS
source code for PDP-11.

Tom


On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 9:05 AM Jon Forrest <nobozo@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 5/20/2023 6:43 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
> > However, we know that while PWB was never
> > released officially outside of the Bell System
>
> I've mentioned this before. We had PWB at Ford Aerospace in
> the late 1970s. This was in the group that Mike Padlipsky and
> John Nagle were part of.
>
> Jon
>
>

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[TUHS] Re: Documentation for Sys-V basic interpreter

[Tom Perrine]

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KSOS and related work was sponsored by several DoD activities, at least the
part that I worked on - after 1983.

We've wandered a bit afar for TUHS(?), but, the PWB and other software
wasn't pirated, it was supplied as "government furnished equipment" as part
of each contract.

PWB and other software we got via the NSA's Tycho site, etc. NRL (and then
others) funded later KSOS work, including the Advanced  Command and Control
Testbed (ACCAT) and various multi-level secure "Guard" systems, for the
Navy, Air Force, USAFE, etc.

All of which ran on PDP-11s, using the KSOS kernel and userspace, almost
all built by using PWB as the build platform.





On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 12:09 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

> I don't think it was pirated. I'm think it was a special license Ford Aero
> got due to the work with the USG. I sort of remember KSOS and if I'm
> correct that was a DoD funded effort for the Orange Book.  So it would make
> absolute sense that Ford Aero might have used the USG connections to
> convince AT&T to release it to them.  As I said, Al was very skittish about
> anything that might be misinterpreted by the Justice dept.  But if DoD was
> asking for it, Al could show the Jusitce -- "hey -- your people asked for
> it -- we were not selling it."
> ᐧ
>
> On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 3:03 PM Jon Forrest <nobozo@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 5/20/2023 11:50 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
>> > Taking this off list.
>> >
>> > I've always wondered about that.  Thank you bad word choice -- but it
>> > was not officially released outside the Bell System.   Since Ford Aero
>> > had it, it must have been a very special license.
>>
>> It was already there when I arrived so I don't know how it got there.
>> I doubt it was pirated.
>>
>> > Was Ford Aero doing something on a Gvt bid when you were using it?
>>
>> Yes. It was creating KSOS which Tom Ferrine has also mentioned on the
>> TUHS list. This was a "provably" secure version of Unix.
>>
>> You might want to ask John Nagle. His email is probably
>> nagle@sitetruth.com, and his GitHub is https://github.com/John-Nagle.
>> He was there when I arrived and he was a key developer of KSOS.
>> If he doesn't know the answer then he might be able to refer you to
>> someone who does.
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
>>
>>

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