[9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

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On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:55 AM, trebol <trebol55555@aol.com> wrote:

> .....  The lack of a
> web browser capable of deal with today's madness and the portability
> limitation of ape (at least for a ignorant like me) forcesme to deal
> with other OS I have to install and maintaining, so the simplicity and
> cleanness I like so much of plan9 become useless.  Thanks to Russ Cox for
> P9P!

....
>

This is a great segue into a point I was hoping to make.  I read Rob Pike's
comments at:

    http://rob.pike.usesthis.com/

and it really got me thinking.  What a great idea he talked about!  I think
this may be at the heart of the Plan-9 idea.

Mind-share and markets rarely move with sense or logic.  The better
approach rarely wins. It is more a matter of critical mass of mind-share.
 Linux, for a lot of really good reasons, has that mind-share (in the
technical arena).  (Of course Windows has much more mind-share do largely
to the fact that most users are non-technical and don't understand the
difference - not to mention Microsoft's bullying of the market...)

I think Plan-9 suffered from two big issues.  The first was lack of
mind-share (crowd acceptance).  It is very hard to compete with Windows &
Linux.  The second was lack of support for a huge need - a fully functional
browser.

In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9 has
no real future.  On the other hand, I believe that some of the best ideas
Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future.  I think the best,
most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and availability
is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel.  I understand that, since
Linux is not Plan-9, there would be compromises and limitations, but it
would be a huge step in the right direction.  Plan-9 proved those ideas in
an ideal environment.  Just like what Smalltalk did to the world - creating
C++, Java, the mouse, etc., Plan-9 can bring its ideas to the mainstream
through additions and improvements to existing technology like Linux.

Just some thoughts.

Blake McBride

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Bence Fábián]

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If bringing Plan 9 to the masses will bring forth stuff like C++ and Java,
I will fight against it till my dying breath.

Jokes aside. People don't want to use computers. People want to use apps.
Noone will like Plan 9. Where you have to read manuals. They hate that. If
you like Plan 9, and there's a usecase for it, use it. And write device
drivers. That is much more helpful than trying to convince LKML folks that
they need userlevel namespaces. People already tried this.


2013/12/15 Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>

> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:55 AM, trebol <trebol55555@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> .....  The lack of a
>> web browser capable of deal with today's madness and the portability
>> limitation of ape (at least for a ignorant like me) forcesme to deal
>> with other OS I have to install and maintaining, so the simplicity and
>> cleanness I like so much of plan9 become useless.  Thanks to Russ Cox for
>> P9P!
>
> ....
>>
>
> This is a great segue into a point I was hoping to make.  I read Rob
> Pike's comments at:
>
>     http://rob.pike.usesthis.com/
>
> and it really got me thinking.  What a great idea he talked about!  I
> think this may be at the heart of the Plan-9 idea.
>
> Mind-share and markets rarely move with sense or logic.  The better
> approach rarely wins. It is more a matter of critical mass of mind-share.
>  Linux, for a lot of really good reasons, has that mind-share (in the
> technical arena).  (Of course Windows has much more mind-share do largely
> to the fact that most users are non-technical and don't understand the
> difference - not to mention Microsoft's bullying of the market...)
>
> I think Plan-9 suffered from two big issues.  The first was lack of
> mind-share (crowd acceptance).  It is very hard to compete with Windows &
> Linux.  The second was lack of support for a huge need - a fully functional
> browser.
>
> In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9
> has no real future.  On the other hand, I believe that some of the best
> ideas Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future.  I think the
> best, most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and
> availability is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel.  I understand
> that, since Linux is not Plan-9, there would be compromises and
> limitations, but it would be a huge step in the right direction.  Plan-9
> proved those ideas in an ideal environment.  Just like what Smalltalk did
> to the world - creating C++, Java, the mouse, etc., Plan-9 can bring its
> ideas to the mainstream through additions and improvements to existing
> technology like Linux.
>
> Just some thoughts.
>
> Blake McBride
>
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

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I, respectfully, disagree.  The end purpose of any OS, platform, or program
is to perform some sort of function.  That end function is called an app.
 An app can be targeted at a programmer or a dumb user. The underlying
environment (including tools) determines the available facilities a
programmer has in order to construct said app.  Unix brings far, far better
facilities for the programmer than does Window for the construction and
operation of an app.  The new ideas embodied in Plan-9 bring considerable
enhancements to such an environment.

If I am not going to build an app of some sort or another, what is the
value of Plan-9?  Am I just going to spend all day playing with the cool
ideas with no end or purpose in mind?

Blake



On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Bence Fábián <begnoc@gmail.com> wrote:

> If bringing Plan 9 to the masses will bring forth stuff like C++ and Java,
> I will fight against it till my dying breath.
>
> Jokes aside. People don't want to use computers. People want to use apps.
> Noone will like Plan 9. Where you have to read manuals. They hate that. If
> you like Plan 9, and there's a usecase for it, use it. And write device
> drivers. That is much more helpful than trying to convince LKML folks that
> they need userlevel namespaces. People already tried this.
>
>
> 2013/12/15 Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>
>
>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:55 AM, trebol <trebol55555@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> .....  The lack of a
>>> web browser capable of deal with today's madness and the portability
>>> limitation of ape (at least for a ignorant like me) forcesme to deal
>>> with other OS I have to install and maintaining, so the simplicity and
>>> cleanness I like so much of plan9 become useless.  Thanks to Russ Cox
>>> for P9P!
>>
>> ....
>>>
>>
>> This is a great segue into a point I was hoping to make.  I read Rob
>> Pike's comments at:
>>
>>     http://rob.pike.usesthis.com/
>>
>> and it really got me thinking.  What a great idea he talked about!  I
>> think this may be at the heart of the Plan-9 idea.
>>
>> Mind-share and markets rarely move with sense or logic.  The better
>> approach rarely wins. It is more a matter of critical mass of mind-share.
>>  Linux, for a lot of really good reasons, has that mind-share (in the
>> technical arena).  (Of course Windows has much more mind-share do largely
>> to the fact that most users are non-technical and don't understand the
>> difference - not to mention Microsoft's bullying of the market...)
>>
>> I think Plan-9 suffered from two big issues.  The first was lack of
>> mind-share (crowd acceptance).  It is very hard to compete with Windows &
>> Linux.  The second was lack of support for a huge need - a fully functional
>> browser.
>>
>> In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9
>> has no real future.  On the other hand, I believe that some of the best
>> ideas Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future.  I think the
>> best, most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and
>> availability is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel.  I understand
>> that, since Linux is not Plan-9, there would be compromises and
>> limitations, but it would be a huge step in the right direction.  Plan-9
>> proved those ideas in an ideal environment.  Just like what Smalltalk did
>> to the world - creating C++, Java, the mouse, etc., Plan-9 can bring its
>> ideas to the mainstream through additions and improvements to existing
>> technology like Linux.
>>
>> Just some thoughts.
>>
>> Blake McBride
>>
>>
>>
>

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Bence Fábián]

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Bottomline is this: People would never use software like that. The ones who
do are already familiar with Plan 9 and weighted pros and cons years ago.
99,9% of the potential users are already on this mailing list and watched
this exact same exchange a dozen times.


2013/12/15 Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>

> I, respectfully, disagree.  The end purpose of any OS, platform, or
> program is to perform some sort of function.  That end function is called
> an app.  An app can be targeted at a programmer or a dumb user. The
> underlying environment (including tools) determines the available
> facilities a programmer has in order to construct said app.  Unix brings
> far, far better facilities for the programmer than does Window for the
> construction and operation of an app.  The new ideas embodied in Plan-9
> bring considerable enhancements to such an environment.
>
> If I am not going to build an app of some sort or another, what is the
> value of Plan-9?  Am I just going to spend all day playing with the cool
> ideas with no end or purpose in mind?
>
> Blake
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Bence Fábián <begnoc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If bringing Plan 9 to the masses will bring forth stuff like C++ and
>> Java, I will fight against it till my dying breath.
>>
>> Jokes aside. People don't want to use computers. People want to use apps.
>> Noone will like Plan 9. Where you have to read manuals. They hate that. If
>> you like Plan 9, and there's a usecase for it, use it. And write device
>> drivers. That is much more helpful than trying to convince LKML folks that
>> they need userlevel namespaces. People already tried this.
>>
>>
>> 2013/12/15 Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>
>>
>>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:55 AM, trebol <trebol55555@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> .....  The lack of a
>>>> web browser capable of deal with today's madness and the portability
>>>> limitation of ape (at least for a ignorant like me) forcesme to deal
>>>> with other OS I have to install and maintaining, so the simplicity and
>>>> cleanness I like so much of plan9 become useless.  Thanks to Russ Cox
>>>> for P9P!
>>>
>>> ....
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is a great segue into a point I was hoping to make.  I read Rob
>>> Pike's comments at:
>>>
>>>     http://rob.pike.usesthis.com/
>>>
>>> and it really got me thinking.  What a great idea he talked about!  I
>>> think this may be at the heart of the Plan-9 idea.
>>>
>>> Mind-share and markets rarely move with sense or logic.  The better
>>> approach rarely wins. It is more a matter of critical mass of mind-share.
>>>  Linux, for a lot of really good reasons, has that mind-share (in the
>>> technical arena).  (Of course Windows has much more mind-share do largely
>>> to the fact that most users are non-technical and don't understand the
>>> difference - not to mention Microsoft's bullying of the market...)
>>>
>>> I think Plan-9 suffered from two big issues.  The first was lack of
>>> mind-share (crowd acceptance).  It is very hard to compete with Windows &
>>> Linux.  The second was lack of support for a huge need - a fully functional
>>> browser.
>>>
>>> In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9
>>> has no real future.  On the other hand, I believe that some of the best
>>> ideas Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future.  I think the
>>> best, most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and
>>> availability is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel.  I understand
>>> that, since Linux is not Plan-9, there would be compromises and
>>> limitations, but it would be a huge step in the right direction.  Plan-9
>>> proved those ideas in an ideal environment.  Just like what Smalltalk did
>>> to the world - creating C++, Java, the mouse, etc., Plan-9 can bring its
>>> ideas to the mainstream through additions and improvements to existing
>>> technology like Linux.
>>>
>>> Just some thoughts.
>>>
>>> Blake McBride
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

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Okay.  Got it.


On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Bence Fábián <begnoc@gmail.com> wrote:

> Bottomline is this: People would never use software like that. The ones
> who do are already familiar with Plan 9 and weighted pros and cons years
> ago. 99,9% of the potential users are already on this mailing list and
> watched this exact same exchange a dozen times.
>
>
> 2013/12/15 Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>
>
>> I, respectfully, disagree.  The end purpose of any OS, platform, or
>> program is to perform some sort of function.  That end function is called
>> an app.  An app can be targeted at a programmer or a dumb user. The
>> underlying environment (including tools) determines the available
>> facilities a programmer has in order to construct said app.  Unix brings
>> far, far better facilities for the programmer than does Window for the
>> construction and operation of an app.  The new ideas embodied in Plan-9
>> bring considerable enhancements to such an environment.
>>
>> If I am not going to build an app of some sort or another, what is the
>> value of Plan-9?  Am I just going to spend all day playing with the cool
>> ideas with no end or purpose in mind?
>>
>> Blake
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Bence Fábián <begnoc@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> If bringing Plan 9 to the masses will bring forth stuff like C++ and
>>> Java, I will fight against it till my dying breath.
>>>
>>> Jokes aside. People don't want to use computers. People want to use
>>> apps. Noone will like Plan 9. Where you have to read manuals. They hate
>>> that. If you like Plan 9, and there's a usecase for it, use it. And write
>>> device drivers. That is much more helpful than trying to convince LKML
>>> folks that they need userlevel namespaces. People already tried this.
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/12/15 Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>
>>>
>>>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:55 AM, trebol <trebol55555@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> .....  The lack of a
>>>>> web browser capable of deal with today's madness and the portability
>>>>> limitation of ape (at least for a ignorant like me) forcesme to deal
>>>>> with other OS I have to install and maintaining, so the simplicity and
>>>>> cleanness I like so much of plan9 become useless.  Thanks to Russ Cox
>>>>> for P9P!
>>>>
>>>> ....
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is a great segue into a point I was hoping to make.  I read Rob
>>>> Pike's comments at:
>>>>
>>>>     http://rob.pike.usesthis.com/
>>>>
>>>> and it really got me thinking.  What a great idea he talked about!  I
>>>> think this may be at the heart of the Plan-9 idea.
>>>>
>>>> Mind-share and markets rarely move with sense or logic.  The better
>>>> approach rarely wins. It is more a matter of critical mass of mind-share.
>>>>  Linux, for a lot of really good reasons, has that mind-share (in the
>>>> technical arena).  (Of course Windows has much more mind-share do largely
>>>> to the fact that most users are non-technical and don't understand the
>>>> difference - not to mention Microsoft's bullying of the market...)
>>>>
>>>> I think Plan-9 suffered from two big issues.  The first was lack of
>>>> mind-share (crowd acceptance).  It is very hard to compete with Windows &
>>>> Linux.  The second was lack of support for a huge need - a fully functional
>>>> browser.
>>>>
>>>> In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9
>>>> has no real future.  On the other hand, I believe that some of the best
>>>> ideas Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future.  I think the
>>>> best, most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and
>>>> availability is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel.  I understand
>>>> that, since Linux is not Plan-9, there would be compromises and
>>>> limitations, but it would be a huge step in the right direction.  Plan-9
>>>> proved those ideas in an ideal environment.  Just like what Smalltalk did
>>>> to the world - creating C++, Java, the mouse, etc., Plan-9 can bring its
>>>> ideas to the mainstream through additions and improvements to existing
>>>> technology like Linux.
>>>>
>>>> Just some thoughts.
>>>>
>>>> Blake McBride
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[erik quanstrom]

> I, respectfully, disagree.  The end purpose of any OS, platform, or program
> is to perform some sort of function.  That end function is called an app.

the distinction between the os an application is illusionary.  redefineing terms
a little bit doesn't clear anything up.

what an os allows one to accomplish may also be meta.  trying new ideas out
is certanly useful even if it doesn't result in something useful.

>  An app can be targeted at a programmer or a dumb user. The underlying
> environment (including tools) determines the available facilities a
> programmer has in order to construct said app.  Unix brings far, far better
> facilities for the programmer than does Window for the construction and
> operation of an app.

[citation needed]

> If I am not going to build an app of some sort or another, what is the
> value of Plan-9?  Am I just going to spend all day playing with the cool
> ideas with no end or purpose in mind?

your caricature is actually a pretty good use for plan 9.  there's nothing
illegitimate about research.  but not knowing what you're doing doesn't
mean fooling around all day.

but more directly to the point, plan 9 is a excellent platform for building
products.  i've been involved in building a number of plan 9 products, and
imho the work would have been much harder with the other oses i'm familiar
with.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Steve Simon]

I have no desire to develope c++ code on plan9 but if there was a simple way to
cross compile c++ applications for plan9 that would be great - firefox being
the obvious one.

This has been done to death, and the closest we ever came to it (IMHO) was
cinap's linuxemu - this allowed you to run the linux firefox, or even opera
on plan9. I required the use of fgb's x11 port as a display engine, and so
it is perhaps not the most minimal solution however it works.

-Steve

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

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Linux, android, Windows, and iOS all reached a critical mass in terms of
programmer and end-user apps in order to survive.  Plan-9 did not.  A
quality web browser on Plan-9 is critical to its usefullness by many.  But
this is just one major piece among many.


On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net> wrote:

> I have no desire to develope c++ code on plan9 but if there was a simple
> way to
> cross compile c++ applications for plan9 that would be great - firefox
> being
> the obvious one.
>
> This has been done to death, and the closest we ever came to it (IMHO) was
> cinap's linuxemu - this allowed you to run the linux firefox, or even opera
> on plan9. I required the use of fgb's x11 port as a display engine, and so
> it is perhaps not the most minimal solution however it works.
>
> -Steve
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Steve Simon]

 But this is just one major piece among many.

Perhaps for you but not for me, the only thing is really missi s a browser.

Very occasuinally I need to edit word documents but this is rare
enough that I don't really care.

-Steve

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

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"major piece among many" can be more precisely stated as "many pieces among
many in order for the platform to achieve a critical mass of users".


On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net> wrote:

>  But this is just one major piece among many.
>
> Perhaps for you but not for me, the only thing is really missi s a browser.
>
> Very occasuinally I need to edit word documents but this is rare
> enough that I don't really care.
>
> -Steve
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[erik quanstrom]

> "major piece among many" can be more precisely stated as "many pieces among
> many in order for the platform to achieve a critical mass of users".

the metaphor "critical mass" is really tiresome one.  it does not apply
to operating systems.  if one person finds the os useful, then that's enough.

i'm not entirely clear how this metaphor is supposed to be interpreted, but
perhaps the idea is that with lots of users, lots of software gets written and
clearly more is better.

or maybe not.  plan 9 is a research system.  for me that means we use it as
it makes doing new and interesting things, or the same thing in an interesting
way easy.  so having piles of ported software is at best a distraction.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

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This whole discussion has devolved into a political left vs. right like
debate.  Suffice it to say that without a critical mass of users, Bell Labs
and/or Alcatel-Lucent will drop it, it will experience insufficient support
from the user base at large, and it will suffer bit-rot until it won't boot
anywhere anymore.

Here is an exercise for fun too.  Create your own written language, and
write a bunch of books in it.  Have fun.

Blake



On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 2:17 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>wrote:

> > "major piece among many" can be more precisely stated as "many pieces
> among
> > many in order for the platform to achieve a critical mass of users".
>
> the metaphor "critical mass" is really tiresome one.  it does not apply
> to operating systems.  if one person finds the os useful, then that's
> enough.
>
> i'm not entirely clear how this metaphor is supposed to be interpreted, but
> perhaps the idea is that with lots of users, lots of software gets written
> and
> clearly more is better.
>
> or maybe not.  plan 9 is a research system.  for me that means we use it as
> it makes doing new and interesting things, or the same thing in an
> interesting
> way easy.  so having piles of ported software is at best a distraction.
>
> - erik
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Bence Fábián]

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Schooling Erik on this list is priceless. Such entertainment.

Well if it dies it dies. It wasn't a bad run. Plan 9 has been around longer
than Linux. But now that we have failed to heed your warning. Woe us.

This whole discussion has devolved into all the exact same discussions when
someone comes to save us from ourselves.
If you are too lazy to look into the archives at least read this:
http://jfloren.net/b/2012/4/27/0


2013/12/15 Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>

> This whole discussion has devolved into a political left vs. right like
> debate.  Suffice it to say that without a critical mass of users, Bell Labs
> and/or Alcatel-Lucent will drop it, it will experience insufficient support
> from the user base at large, and it will suffer bit-rot until it won't
> boot anywhere anymore.
>
> Here is an exercise for fun too.  Create your own written language, and
> write a bunch of books in it.  Have fun.
>
> Blake
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 2:17 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>wrote:
>
>> > "major piece among many" can be more precisely stated as "many pieces
>> among
>> > many in order for the platform to achieve a critical mass of users".
>>
>> the metaphor "critical mass" is really tiresome one.  it does not apply
>> to operating systems.  if one person finds the os useful, then that's
>> enough.
>>
>> i'm not entirely clear how this metaphor is supposed to be interpreted,
>> but
>> perhaps the idea is that with lots of users, lots of software gets
>> written and
>> clearly more is better.
>>
>> or maybe not.  plan 9 is a research system.  for me that means we use it
>> as
>> it makes doing new and interesting things, or the same thing in an
>> interesting
>> way easy.  so having piles of ported software is at best a distraction.
>>
>> - erik
>>
>>
>

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

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On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 3:23 PM, Bence Fábián <begnoc@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> This whole discussion has devolved into all the exact same discussions
> when someone comes to save us from ourselves.
> If you are too lazy to look into the archives at least read this:
> http://jfloren.net/b/2012/4/27/0
>
>
Yes, that surely fits me at this point. Sorry.  I'll try to heed the advice.

BTW, I downloaded 9front and it installed on VMware without a problem.  Not
surprisingly, I'm pretty lost.  Looking around, there is a lot of
information around the net.  The problem is that some of it is out of date.
 I'll try to keep the questions to a minimum.  I appreciate the help.

Blake

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Lee Fallat]

...Tell that to the people who are maintaining 9front and 9atom.

Oh wait, you just did.

My personal opinion: Plan 9 in its forked form will continue to be
used and worked for a long time. Hell, there are people still using
Amigas for "serious" computing! I too many times thinking about
bringing Plan 9 ideas to Linux or UNIX systems, with the conclusion
that the design principals are just too different. You have parts of
Plan 9 making it over to the other side, but Linux or BSD will never
be a Plan 9-like operating system- forever UNIX.

Regards,

Lee

On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name> wrote:
> This whole discussion has devolved into a political left vs. right like
> debate.  Suffice it to say that without a critical mass of users, Bell Labs
> and/or Alcatel-Lucent will drop it, it will experience insufficient support
> from the user base at large, and it will suffer bit-rot until it won't boot
> anywhere anymore.
>
> Here is an exercise for fun too.  Create your own written language, and
> write a bunch of books in it.  Have fun.
>
> Blake
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 2:17 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> > "major piece among many" can be more precisely stated as "many pieces
>> > among
>> > many in order for the platform to achieve a critical mass of users".
>>
>> the metaphor "critical mass" is really tiresome one.  it does not apply
>> to operating systems.  if one person finds the os useful, then that's
>> enough.
>>
>> i'm not entirely clear how this metaphor is supposed to be interpreted,
>> but
>> perhaps the idea is that with lots of users, lots of software gets written
>> and
>> clearly more is better.
>>
>> or maybe not.  plan 9 is a research system.  for me that means we use it
>> as
>> it makes doing new and interesting things, or the same thing in an
>> interesting
>> way easy.  so having piles of ported software is at best a distraction.
>>
>> - erik
>>
>

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

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On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Lee Fallat <ircsurfer33@gmail.com> wrote:

> ...Tell that to the people who are maintaining 9front and 9atom.
>
>
I wasn't aware of those two.  Thanks!

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Kurt H Maier]

Quoting Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>:

> This whole discussion has devolved into a political left vs. right like
> debate.  Suffice it to say that without a critical mass of users, Bell Labs
> and/or Alcatel-Lucent will drop it, it will experience insufficient support
> from the user base at large, and it will suffer bit-rot until it won't boot
> anywhere anymore.
>

you're a very silly person and you don't know anything at all

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Matthew Veety]

On 12/15/2013 4:17 PM, Blake McBride wrote:
> This whole discussion has devolved into a political left vs. right like
> debate.  Suffice it to say that without a critical mass of users, Bell
> Labs and/or Alcatel-Lucent will drop it, it will experience insufficient
> support from the user base at large, and it will suffer bit-rot until it
> won't boot anywhere anymore.

No. We forked it. If you could google better maybe you would know this.

> Here is an exercise for fun too.  Create your own written language, and
> write a bunch of books in it.  Have fun.

Fuck you. I have better shit to do like make vt(1) work with OpenVMS.

> Blake

--
Veety

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Tristan]

> Suffice it to say that without a critical mass of users, Bell Labs
> and/or Alcatel-Lucent will drop it, it will experience insufficient
> support from the user base at large, and it will suffer bit-rot until
> it won't boot anywhere anymore.

plan 9 is sane enough that one person can maintain it for their own use.
given the state of other systems that probably doesn't appear possible.

that's probably the most important idea that i've taken from plan 9.

software can be sane.

and then there's chuck moore.

tristan

-- 
All original matter is hereby placed immediately under the public domain.

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[erik quanstrom]

> plan 9 is sane enough that one person can maintain it for their own use.
> given the state of other systems that probably doesn't appear possible.
>
> that's probably the most important idea that i've taken from plan 9.

+1.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Jeff Sickel]

On Dec 15, 2013, at 4:48 PM, Tristan <9p-st@imu.li> wrote:

> and then there's chuck moore.

I’m still rooting for GreenArrays as there are a few projects
where they chips would actually do well.  But now that they’re
accepting bitcoin, who knows, who knows.

-jas

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Bruce Ellis]

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GreenArrays rocks. I still have no idea what to with all the cores. I've
found that writing a go package that generates fun forth is fun.

brucee
On 17/12/2013 11:32 AM, "Jeff Sickel" <jas@corpus-callosum.com> wrote:

>
> On Dec 15, 2013, at 4:48 PM, Tristan <9p-st@imu.li> wrote:
>
> > and then there's chuck moore.
>
> I’m still rooting for GreenArrays as there are a few projects
> where they chips would actually do well.  But now that they’re
> accepting bitcoin, who knows, who knows.
>
> -jas
>
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Conor Williams]

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i'm getting an error code 87 writing usbdisk to my key:

according to the web: The second fix prevents USB Image Tool from restoring
invalid images in device mode. A valid device mode image has to be multiple
of 512. If that’s not the case, the write operation will fail with error
code 87 close to the end of the process. To prevent this, USB Image Tool
now checks, if the image file size is a multiple of 512.
http://www.alexpage.de/tag/usb-image-tool/

9atom doesn't support my hard drive un-fortunately... (see attached
photo...)

going to try 9front now but i don't have a kernel... can i request one that
supports my AMD 2 core 1.8GHZ "Altec Lansing" HP Laptop?




On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 4:09 AM, Bruce Ellis <bruce.ellis@gmail.com> wrote:

> GreenArrays rocks. I still have no idea what to with all the cores. I've
> found that writing a go package that generates fun forth is fun.
>
> brucee
> On 17/12/2013 11:32 AM, "Jeff Sickel" <jas@corpus-callosum.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Dec 15, 2013, at 4:48 PM, Tristan <9p-st@imu.li> wrote:
>>
>> > and then there's chuck moore.
>>
>> I’m still rooting for GreenArrays as there are a few projects
>> where they chips would actually do well.  But now that they’re
>> accepting bitcoin, who knows, who knows.
>>
>> -jas
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[erik quanstrom]

On Wed Dec 18 04:48:29 EST 2013, conor.williams@gmail.com wrote:


> i'm getting an error code 87 writing usbdisk to my key:
> 
> according to the web: The second fix prevents USB Image Tool from
> restoring invalid images in device mode.  A valid device mode image
> has to be multiple of 512.  If that’s not the case, the write
> operation will fail with error code 87 close to the end of the
> process.  To prevent this, USB Image Tool now checks, if the image
> file size is a multiple of 512.
> http://www.alexpage.de/tag/usb-image-tool/

i'm not sure what tool you're using, but the image is a multiple of
512 bytes long.

	; </n/atom/ftp/usbinstamd64.bz2 >/tmp/usbinstamd64 bunzip2
	; ls -ltr /tmp
	--rw-rw-r-- M 788 quanstro quanstro 524288000 Dec 18 15:48 /tmp/usbinstamd64
	; echo 524288000 % 512 | hoc
	0

perhaps something got corrupted.

the crash dump is good information but in this case the pc does not appear
to be valid, so i don't see what's wrong yet.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Conor Williams]

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cool man, nice follow up... it's the bell-labs one is code 87... your one
was fine but it crashed... and that was the pic I sent...

don't worry too much about it... gonna get some of my old hardware after
christmas, that I know is supported... I will let you know what happens
then my friend...


On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 8:51 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@labs.coraid.com>wrote:

> On Wed Dec 18 04:48:29 EST 2013, conor.williams@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> > i'm getting an error code 87 writing usbdisk to my key:
> >
> > according to the web: The second fix prevents USB Image Tool from
> > restoring invalid images in device mode.  A valid device mode image
> > has to be multiple of 512.  If that’s not the case, the write
> > operation will fail with error code 87 close to the end of the
> > process.  To prevent this, USB Image Tool now checks, if the image
> > file size is a multiple of 512.
> > http://www.alexpage.de/tag/usb-image-tool/
>
> i'm not sure what tool you're using, but the image is a multiple of
> 512 bytes long.
>
>         ; </n/atom/ftp/usbinstamd64.bz2 >/tmp/usbinstamd64 bunzip2
>         ; ls -ltr /tmp
>         --rw-rw-r-- M 788 quanstro quanstro 524288000 Dec 18 15:48
> /tmp/usbinstamd64
>         ; echo 524288000 % 512 | hoc
>         0
>
> perhaps something got corrupted.
>
> the crash dump is good information but in this case the pc does not appear
> to be valid, so i don't see what's wrong yet.
>
> - erik
>

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[erik quanstrom]

On Thu Dec 19 17:36:48 EST 2013, conor.williams@gmail.com wrote:

> cool man, nice follow up... it's the bell-labs one is code 87... your one
> was fine but it crashed... and that was the pic I sent...
>
> don't worry too much about it... gonna get some of my old hardware after
> christmas, that I know is supported... I will let you know what happens
> then my friend...

if you could grab the original faulting pc, even by taking a movie
of the booting screen, that would be pretty helpful.  i'm sure i have
some bugs.  ;-)

- erik

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Conor Williams]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 763 bytes --]

and would you believe, i have the very movie... but... it 43MB... gonna
convert it now.. wts!


On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 10:53 PM, erik quanstrom
<quanstro@labs.coraid.com>wrote:

> On Thu Dec 19 17:36:48 EST 2013, conor.williams@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > cool man, nice follow up... it's the bell-labs one is code 87... your one
> > was fine but it crashed... and that was the pic I sent...
> >
> > don't worry too much about it... gonna get some of my old hardware after
> > christmas, that I know is supported... I will let you know what happens
> > then my friend...
>
> if you could grab the original faulting pc, even by taking a movie
> of the booting screen, that would be pretty helpful.  i'm sure i have
> some bugs.  ;-)
>
> - erik
>

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Conor Williams]

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wmv ok?...

they are also on my google+


On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 11:15 PM, Conor Williams
<conor.williams@gmail.com>wrote:

> and would you believe, i have the very movie... but... it 43MB... gonna
> convert it now.. wts!
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 10:53 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@labs.coraid.com
> > wrote:
>
>> On Thu Dec 19 17:36:48 EST 2013, conor.williams@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> > cool man, nice follow up... it's the bell-labs one is code 87... your
>> one
>> > was fine but it crashed... and that was the pic I sent...
>> >
>> > don't worry too much about it... gonna get some of my old hardware after
>> > christmas, that I know is supported... I will let you know what happens
>> > then my friend...
>>
>> if you could grab the original faulting pc, even by taking a movie
>> of the booting screen, that would be pretty helpful.  i'm sure i have
>> some bugs.  ;-)
>>
>> - erik
>>
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Conor Williams]

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sorry, that went horribly wrong, give me a minute...


On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 12:29 AM, Conor Williams
<conor.williams@gmail.com>wrote:

> wmv ok?...
>
> they are also on my google+
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 11:15 PM, Conor Williams <conor.williams@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> and would you believe, i have the very movie... but... it 43MB... gonna
>> convert it now.. wts!
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 10:53 PM, erik quanstrom <
>> quanstro@labs.coraid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu Dec 19 17:36:48 EST 2013, conor.williams@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> > cool man, nice follow up... it's the bell-labs one is code 87... your
>>> one
>>> > was fine but it crashed... and that was the pic I sent...
>>> >
>>> > don't worry too much about it... gonna get some of my old hardware
>>> after
>>> > christmas, that I know is supported... I will let you know what happens
>>> > then my friend...
>>>
>>> if you could grab the original faulting pc, even by taking a movie
>>> of the booting screen, that would be pretty helpful.  i'm sure i have
>>> some bugs.  ;-)
>>>
>>> - erik
>>>
>>
>>
>

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Conor Williams]

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here you go... effectless...

apologies from "Windows Movie Maker"

... also on google+


On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 12:37 AM, Conor Williams
<conor.williams@gmail.com>wrote:

> sorry, that went horribly wrong, give me a minute...
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 12:29 AM, Conor Williams <conor.williams@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> wmv ok?...
>>
>> they are also on my google+
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 11:15 PM, Conor Williams <
>> conor.williams@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> and would you believe, i have the very movie... but... it 43MB... gonna
>>> convert it now.. wts!
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 10:53 PM, erik quanstrom <
>>> quanstro@labs.coraid.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu Dec 19 17:36:48 EST 2013, conor.williams@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > cool man, nice follow up... it's the bell-labs one is code 87... your
>>>> one
>>>> > was fine but it crashed... and that was the pic I sent...
>>>> >
>>>> > don't worry too much about it... gonna get some of my old hardware
>>>> after
>>>> > christmas, that I know is supported... I will let you know what
>>>> happens
>>>> > then my friend...
>>>>
>>>> if you could grab the original faulting pc, even by taking a movie
>>>> of the booting screen, that would be pretty helpful.  i'm sure i have
>>>> some bugs.  ;-)
>>>>
>>>> - erik
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[erik quanstrom]

> here you go... effectless...
>
> apologies from "Windows Movie Maker"
>
> ... also on google+

problem diagnosed.  "mwait required".  perhaps i got a bit exuberant
requiring mwait support.  i'll take a look at this but this evening i'm
taking a look at a few bits with the 40gbe driver.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Conor Williams]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 435 bytes --]

ack, thanks...


On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 1:44 AM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>wrote:

> > here you go... effectless...
> >
> > apologies from "Windows Movie Maker"
> >
> > ... also on google+
>
> problem diagnosed.  "mwait required".  perhaps i got a bit exuberant
> requiring mwait support.  i'll take a look at this but this evening i'm
> taking a look at a few bits with the 40gbe driver.
>
> - erik
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[erik quanstrom]

On Thu Dec 19 20:54:04 EST 2013, conor.williams@gmail.com wrote:

> ack, thanks...
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 1:44 AM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>wrote:
>
> > > here you go... effectless...
> > >
> > > apologies from "Windows Movie Maker"
> > >
> > > ... also on google+
> >
> > problem diagnosed.  "mwait required".  perhaps i got a bit exuberant
> > requiring mwait support.  i'll take a look at this but this evening i'm
> > taking a look at a few bits with the 40gbe driver.

please try the test image @ http://www.9atom.org/other/+usbinstamd64.bz2
this should fix this issue, and update everything to current.  sorry for the long
delay.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 900 bytes --]

I am having trouble with that link.  Is it correct?

Thanks.

Blake



On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 5:11 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>wrote:

> On Thu Dec 19 20:54:04 EST 2013, conor.williams@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > ack, thanks...
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 1:44 AM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net
> >wrote:
> >
> > > > here you go... effectless...
> > > >
> > > > apologies from "Windows Movie Maker"
> > > >
> > > > ... also on google+
> > >
> > > problem diagnosed.  "mwait required".  perhaps i got a bit exuberant
> > > requiring mwait support.  i'll take a look at this but this evening i'm
> > > taking a look at a few bits with the 40gbe driver.
>
> please try the test image @ http://www.9atom.org/other/+usbinstamd64.bz2
> this should fix this issue, and update everything to current.  sorry for
> the long
> delay.
>
> - erik
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[David Arnold]

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http://newftp.9atom.org/other/+usbinstamd64.bz2 resolves (www vs. newftp).



d

On 24/12/2013, at 9:44 AM, Blake McBride wrote:

> I am having trouble with that link.  Is it correct?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Blake
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 5:11 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote:
> On Thu Dec 19 20:54:04 EST 2013, conor.williams@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> > ack, thanks...
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 1:44 AM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>wrote:
> >
> > > > here you go... effectless...
> > > >
> > > > apologies from "Windows Movie Maker"
> > > >
> > > > ... also on google+
> > >
> > > problem diagnosed.  "mwait required".  perhaps i got a bit exuberant
> > > requiring mwait support.  i'll take a look at this but this evening i'm
> > > taking a look at a few bits with the 40gbe driver.
> 
> please try the test image @ http://www.9atom.org/other/+usbinstamd64.bz2
> this should fix this issue, and update everything to current.  sorry for the long
> delay.
> 
> - erik
> 
> 


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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[erik quanstrom]

> http://newftp.9atom.org/other/+usbinstamd64.bz2 resolves (www vs. newftp).

i'm sorry should be ftp, though.  thanks for the correction!

- erik

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 534 bytes --]

Thanks for the new boot trial.  I am still getting an error on my HP as
follows:

ehci ..... qh ..... timed out (no inter?)

It did boot but I am getting those errors on the screen.  Please let me
know if more info would be helpful.

Hope this helps.  Thanks!

Blake



On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 7:03 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>wrote:

> > http://newftp.9atom.org/other/+usbinstamd64.bz2 resolves (www vs.
> newftp).
>
> i'm sorry should be ftp, though.  thanks for the correction!
>
> - erik
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[erik quanstrom]

On Mon Dec 23 22:14:10 EST 2013, blake@mcbride.name wrote:

> Thanks for the new boot trial.  I am still getting an error on my HP as
> follows:
>
> ehci ..... qh ..... timed out (no inter?)
>
> It did boot but I am getting those errors on the screen.  Please let me
> know if more info would be helpful.

sorry to have set the expectation that this error would have been resolved.
there are still a few limitations in the ehci implementation.  these are high on the
list, but not quite the top yet.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 736 bytes --]

Hope my feedback is a help.  I'm ready to try more whenever you are.

Thanks!

Blake



On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 9:30 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>wrote:

> On Mon Dec 23 22:14:10 EST 2013, blake@mcbride.name wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the new boot trial.  I am still getting an error on my HP as
> > follows:
> >
> > ehci ..... qh ..... timed out (no inter?)
> >
> > It did boot but I am getting those errors on the screen.  Please let me
> > know if more info would be helpful.
>
> sorry to have set the expectation that this error would have been resolved.
> there are still a few limitations in the ehci implementation.  these are
> high on the
> list, but not quite the top yet.
>
> - erik
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[erik quanstrom]

On Mon Dec 23 22:37:27 EST 2013, blake@mcbride.name wrote:

> Hope my feedback is a help.  I'm ready to try more whenever you are.

it is, but also as anyone else is, you are welcome to submit patches
fixing issues.  apatch/create issuename email@sub.domain file ....

- erik

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Oleg]

On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 11:05:53AM -0600, Blake McBride wrote:
> In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9 has
> no real future.  On the other hand, I believe that some of the best ideas
> Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future.  I think the best,
> most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and availability
> is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel.  I understand that, since

  Hm. The most progressive ideas in plan9 kernel. So, replacing plan9 kernel
with linux kernel, you will get something strange and not very useful at all.

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

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All of this talk sound like someone saying:  imagine the hurdles of sending
a man to the moon.....  how can man fly when his weight to strength ratio
is so poor....

The only limit is ones imagination and creativity.

Blake



On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 12:59 PM, Oleg <lego12239@yandex.ru> wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 11:05:53AM -0600, Blake McBride wrote:
> > In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9
> has
> > no real future.  On the other hand, I believe that some of the best ideas
> > Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future.  I think the
> best,
> > most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and
> availability
> > is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel.  I understand that,
> since
>
>   Hm. The most progressive ideas in plan9 kernel. So, replacing plan9
> kernel
> with linux kernel, you will get something strange and not very useful at
> all.
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Oleg]

On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 01:13:38PM -0600, Blake McBride wrote:
> All of this talk sound like someone saying:  imagine the hurdles of sending
> a man to the moon.....  how can man fly when his weight to strength ratio
> is so poor....

No. This sounds like: why do much of useless work?

To not lose plan9 benefits, we better will grow (or porting) many of useful
and non-existent now software.

Linux already has many good things, like a namespaces, sysfs and normal procfs
(comparing to bsd). May be in the feature it will eliminate ioctl() and other
ugly syscalls and introduce /dev/ttyctl + /dev/tty instead of this. But when
will this happen? We have it all now in plan9.

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Bence Fábián]

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> Linux already has many good things, like a namespaces,

Have you tried using *CLONE_NEWNS* in Linux? I did. It's a joke.
You need to have *CAP_SYS_ADMIN.* And you need to hack back Constants what
has since have been missing from headers. You need to allocate your stack.
Backwards! It's not even funny as a joke to claim that works. It is
certeainly not easier than swiping out a new window.


2013/12/15 Oleg <lego12239@yandex.ru>

> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 01:13:38PM -0600, Blake McBride wrote:
> > All of this talk sound like someone saying:  imagine the hurdles of
> sending
> > a man to the moon.....  how can man fly when his weight to strength ratio
> > is so poor....
>
> No. This sounds like: why do much of useless work?
>
> To not lose plan9 benefits, we better will grow (or porting) many of useful
> and non-existent now software.
>
> Linux already has many good things, like a namespaces, sysfs and normal
> procfs
> (comparing to bsd). May be in the feature it will eliminate ioctl() and
> other
> ugly syscalls and introduce /dev/ttyctl + /dev/tty instead of this. But
> when
> will this happen? We have it all now in plan9.
>
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Oleg]

On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 09:43:27PM +0100, Bence F??bi??n wrote:
> > Linux already has many good things, like a namespaces,
>
> Have you tried using *CLONE_NEWNS* in Linux? I did. It's a joke.

I didn't say that this things are implemented well :-). I just say that
linux has good things in direction of plan9, but it's not plan9. And this
is a thankless job to make plan9 kernel from linux kernel.

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Bence Fábián]

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Ok. Make wonders, then demo them next year on iwp9.


2013/12/15 Oleg <lego12239@yandex.ru>

> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 09:43:27PM +0100, Bence F??bi??n wrote:
> > > Linux already has many good things, like a namespaces,
> >
> > Have you tried using *CLONE_NEWNS* in Linux? I did. It's a joke.
>
> I didn't say that this things are implemented well :-). I just say that
> linux has good things in direction of plan9, but it's not plan9. And this
> is a thankless job to make plan9 kernel from linux kernel.
>
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Kurt H Maier]

Quoting Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>:

> All of this talk sound like someone saying:  imagine the hurdles of sending
> a man to the moon.....  how can man fly when his weight to strength ratio
> is so poor....
>
> The only limit is ones imagination and creativity.
>
> Blake
>

No.  Lack of training, an inability to learn from documentation, and
an unwarranted overestimation of personal ability are all much more
immediate limits.  Imagination and creativity rarely enhance computing.

khm

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Oleksandr Iakovliev]

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On 2013-12-15 18:05 , Blake McBride wrote:
> In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that
> Plan-9 has no real future.

I would not agree about that. If you would try to have a look at coming
future tendencies, you would be notified that there is coming what is
now named as "internet of things" where a lot of material objects in
your environment will have very small chips which would like to
communicate to each other and so on (there are already "scary" news
about arrested china transport containers of electric-irons and kettles
which have some extra less 1cm chip/device to listen for open wifi nets
and spy on them or do whatever they are programmed ;) ).

Another tendency which is not so clear now but it is also coming:
computers/devices/systems/grids which perform actions being same time
what is called interface-less (good example is your car which
automatically identify you by sensors and wireless key/cellphone in your
pocket when you touch cardoor and then system just unlocks that - lot of
computations, communications and same time interfaceless).

When you try to add these two tendencies to each other it would look
like that the next generation OSes should be much close to Plan9/Inferno
because it should easily cover connectivity and inter-communications of
these grids of tens/hundred/thousands of chips/soc/devices per 10 cubic
meters around you  or worldwide (btw you can just read story about "bad
bios" and suspect of ultrasonic communications). They(OS) should be
simple regarding internal design. Parallel programming,
computing/resource sharing, CSP, etc is highly required and should not
be complicated as it is now in world of Unix/Linux/MS/Apple and should
be possible to be programmed by individuals or small groups.
Why not MS/Apple-like solution - because then such "nets" will be closed
and not really manageable at all.
Why not Linux - it is already over-sized and overcomplicated and highly
resistive to design changes, so even an admin with 1meter beard cannot
see all especialities of these such system/nets and cannot administering
such grids manually. Also consider the security of these complicated
systems as effect of simplicity of design of each part.
Regarding Apps - Plan9/Inferno have "reverse" idea: instead of App to
support environment where it has to run, it makes the environment to fit
the App needs - much more productive, stable, manageable.
It should be something simple, easy to join in swarm. Then interface
part does not have such huge value - even if it is ms system with
browser - this part does not play "key" role anymore. Plan9/Inferno or
their derivatives now have great chance for resurrection aka phoenix,
but not as your laptop OS with nicely drawn weather/news widgets or
animated icons, though even this is possible.

just my 2cents for what we may see next

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

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I apologize for that statement.  I made it before I knew of 9Front and
9Atom.  From what I saw, the code hadn't changed in a long time, and
wouldn't boot in any environment I had.  All that is false when you take
into account 9Front and 9Atom.  I now have 9Front running fine, and, in
fact, I am renewing a port of an OO language extension to it.

Blake



On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:26 PM, Oleksandr Iakovliev
<yshurik@lynxline.com>wrote:

>  On 2013-12-15 18:05 , Blake McBride wrote:
>
> In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9
> has no real future.
>
>
> I would not agree about that. If you would try to have a look at coming
> future tendencies, you would be notified that there is coming what is now
> named as "internet of things" where a lot of material objects in your
> environment will have very small chips which would like to communicate to
> each other and so on (there are already "scary" news about arrested china
> transport containers of electric-irons and kettles which have some extra
> less 1cm chip/device to listen for open wifi nets and spy on them or do
> whatever they are programmed ;) ).
>
> Another tendency which is not so clear now but it is also coming:
> computers/devices/systems/grids which perform actions being same time what
> is called interface-less (good example is your car which automatically
> identify you by sensors and wireless key/cellphone in your pocket when you
> touch cardoor and then system just unlocks that - lot of computations,
> communications and same time interfaceless).
>
> When you try to add these two tendencies to each other it would look like
> that the next generation OSes should be much close to Plan9/Inferno because
> it should easily cover connectivity and inter-communications of these grids
> of tens/hundred/thousands of chips/soc/devices per 10 cubic meters around
> you  or worldwide (btw you can just read story about "bad bios" and suspect
> of ultrasonic communications). They(OS) should be simple regarding internal
> design. Parallel programming, computing/resource sharing, CSP, etc is
> highly required and should not be complicated as it is now in world of
> Unix/Linux/MS/Apple and should be possible to be programmed by individuals
> or small groups.
> Why not MS/Apple-like solution - because then such "nets" will be closed
> and not really manageable at all.
> Why not Linux - it is already over-sized and overcomplicated and highly
> resistive to design changes, so even an admin with 1meter beard cannot see
> all especialities of these such system/nets and cannot administering such
> grids manually. Also consider the security of these complicated systems as
> effect of simplicity of design of each part.
> Regarding Apps - Plan9/Inferno have "reverse" idea: instead of App to
> support environment where it has to run, it makes the environment to fit
> the App needs - much more productive, stable, manageable.
> It should be something simple, easy to join in swarm. Then interface part
> does not have such huge value - even if it is ms system with browser - this
> part does not play "key" role anymore. Plan9/Inferno or their derivatives
> now have great chance for resurrection aka phoenix, but not as your laptop
> OS with nicely drawn weather/news widgets or animated icons, though even
> this is possible.
>
> just my 2cents for what we may see next
>

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Anthony Sorace]

On Dec 16, 2013, at 16:47 , Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name> wrote:

> All that is false when you take into account 9Front and 9Atom.

I run and highly recommend 9atom, but what you'd said is false even
just taking into account the mainline distribution from Bell Labs. It is
updated regularly, but via internal work and in the form of processing
patches from external contributors.

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Kurt H Maier]

Quoting Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>:

> From what I saw, the code hadn't changed in a long time, and
> wouldn't boot in any environment I had.

You are not a statistical universe.

> I now have 9Front running fine, and, in
> fact, I am renewing a port of an OO language extension to it.

We already have python, unfortunately.

khm

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Keith]

Who here remembers/knows of the vision for the apple newton? The iPad realized it when the technology was able and the time was right. Who is to say the same couldn't be said for 9? 

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

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Couldn't agree more.


On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 2:57 AM, Keith <orangecalx01@gmail.com> wrote:

> Who here remembers/knows of the vision for the apple newton? The iPad
> realized it when the technology was able and the time was right. Who is to
> say the same couldn't be said for 9?

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[David Arnold]

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On 24/10/2013, at 5:57 PM, Keith wrote:

> Who here remembers/knows of the vision for the apple newton? The iPad realized it when the technology was able and the time was right. Who is to say the same couldn't be said for 9?

I suspect that Plan9ers will be as disappointed as Newtonians at the debased concepts embodied in their "successful" offspring.



d


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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[tyrrell t]

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Well if you can't compile limbo code with GCC, then hey, the idea is the immortal virus.

> From: davida@pobox.com
> Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 14:54:12 +1000
> To: 9fans@9fans.net
> CC: davida@pobox.com
> Subject: Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
> 
> On 24/10/2013, at 5:57 PM, Keith wrote:
> 
> > Who here remembers/knows of the vision for the apple newton? The iPad realized it when the technology was able and the time was right. Who is to say the same couldn't be said for 9?
> 
> I suspect that Plan9ers will be as disappointed as Newtonians at the debased concepts embodied in their "successful" offspring.
> 
> 
> 
> d
> 
 		 	   		  

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Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Charles Forsyth]

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On 16 December 2013 19:51, tyrrell t <tyrrellt@live.com> wrote:

> compile limbo code with GCC


gcc? clang, surely!

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