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* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
@ 2021-04-07  0:59 Jason Stevens
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Jason Stevens @ 2021-04-07  0:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 'Clem Cole ', 'M Douglas McIlroy '
  Cc: 'TUHS main list '

 There is some information and demos of the early 8086/80286 Xenix,
including the IBM rebranded PC Xenix 1.0 on pcjs.org

https://www.pcjs.org/software/pcx86/sys/unix/ibm/xenix/1.0/

And if you have a modern enough browser you can run them from the browser as
well!

It's amazing that CPU's are fast enough to run interpreted emulation that is
faster than the old machines of the day.

-----Original Message-----
From: Clem Cole
To: M Douglas McIlroy
Cc: TUHS main list
Sent: 4/7/21 1:09 AM
Subject: Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference

Doug -- IIRC IBM private-labeled a Microsoft put out a version of Xenix,
although I think it required an PC/AT (286)
 
<https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=aY2xlbWNAY2NjLmNvbQ%3D%3D&type=
zerocontent&guid=6f435ae6-0f2c-4fbd-bfe2-adcbf3edac32> ?

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 11:36 AM M Douglas McIlroy <
m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu <mailto:m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu>
> wrote:


> I wonder. IBM introduced the IBM PC in August of 1981.
> That was years after a non-memory managed version of
> Unix was created by Heinze Lycklama,  LSX. Is anyone
> on this list familiar with Bell Labs management thoughts
> on  selling IBM on LSX rather than "dos"?

IBM famously failed to buy the well-established CP/M in
1980. (CP/M had been introduced in 1974, before the
advent of the LSI-11 on which LSX ran.) By then IBM had
settled on Basic and Intel.  I do not believe they ever
considered Unix and DEC, nor that AT&T considered
selling to IBM. (AT&T had--fortunately--long since been
rebuffed in an attempt to sell to DEC.)

Doug



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
@ 2021-04-10 18:12 Paul Ruizendaal via TUHS
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Paul Ruizendaal via TUHS @ 2021-04-10 18:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list

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> On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 11:34 PM Ed Bradford <egbegb2 at gmail.com <https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tuhs>> wrote:
> 
> > Why did a Ph.D., an academic, and a computer scientist not know about UNIX
> > in 1974 or so? 1976? In 1976, some (many?) universities had source code.
> >
> 
> Some knowns/givens at the time ...
> 1.) He was a language/compiler type person -- he had created PL/M and that
> was really what he was originally trying to show off.  As I understand it
> and has been reported in other interviews, originally CP/M was an attempt
> to show off what you could do with PL/M.
> 2.) The 8080/Z80 S-100 style machines we quite limited, they had very
> little memory, no MMU, and extremely limited storage in the 8" floppies
> 3.) He was familiar with RT/11 and DOS-11, many Universities had it on
> smaller PDP-11s as they ran on an 11/20 without an MMU also with limited
> memory, and often used simple (primarily tape) storage (DECtape and
> Cassette's) as the default 'laboratory' system, replacing the earlier PDP-8
> for the same job which primarily ran DOS-8 in those settings.
> 4.) Fifth and Sixth Edition of Unix was $150 for university but to run it,
> it took a larger at least 11/40 or 45, with a minimum of 64Kbytes to boot
> and really need the full 256Kbytes to run acceptably and the cost of a 2.5M
> byte RK05 disk was much greater per byte than tape -- thus the base system
> it took to run it was at least $60K (in 1975 dollars) and typically cost
> about two to four times that in practice.   Remember the cost of
> acquisition of the HW dominated many (most) choices.
> 
> *I**'ll take a guess, but it is only that.*  I *suspect* he saw the S-100
> system as closer to a PDP-11/20 'lab' system than as a small
> timesharing machine.  He set out with CP/M to duplication the functionality
> from RT/11.  He even the naming of the commands was the same as what DEC
> used (*e.g.* PIP) and used the basic DEC style command syntax and parsing
> rules.

That is about it. CP/M predates the Altair / S-100 bus, and was designed for a heavily hacked Intellec-8 system.

CP/M was developed on a PDP-10 based 8080 simulator in 1974. It was developed for the dual purposes of creating a “native” PL/M compiler and to create the “astrology machine”.

The first versions of CP/M were written (mostly) in PL/M. To some extent, in 1974 both Unix and CP/M were research systems, with a kernel coded in a portable language — but aimed at very different levels of hardware capability.

In 1975 customers started to show up and paid serious money for CP/M (Omron, IMSAI) - from that point on the course for Kildall / DRI was set.

The story is here: https://computerhistory.org/blog/in-his-own-words-gary-kildall/?key=in-his-own-words-gary-kildall <https://computerhistory.org/blog/in-his-own-words-gary-kildall/?key=in-his-own-words-gary-kildall>



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* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-10 15:12       ` Clem Cole
@ 2021-04-10 15:41         ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2021-04-10 15:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 11:12:51AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 11:34 PM Ed Bradford <egbegb2@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Why did a Ph.D., an academic, and a computer scientist not know about UNIX
> > in 1974 or so? 1976? In 1976, some (many?) universities had source code.
> >
> 
> 4.) Fifth and Sixth Edition of Unix was $150 for university but to run it,
> it took a larger at least 11/40 or 45, with a minimum of 64Kbytes to boot
> and really need the full 256Kbytes to run acceptably and the cost of a 2.5M
> byte RK05 disk was much greater per byte than tape -- thus the base system
> it took to run it was at least $60K (in 1975 dollars) and typically cost
> about two to four times that in practice.   Remember the cost of
> acquisition of the HW dominated many (most) choices.

It was around 1983 or so when I bought a CP/M system, I think an
Okidata.  It was a weird, but fun, machine, had a printer built
into the base behind the keyboard, dual 5" floppies, 128K less
the bitmapped color display.  $2000.

It was slow but dramatically faster than 1/32-164th of a 1MB VAX 780.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-10  3:33     ` Ed Bradford
@ 2021-04-10 15:12       ` Clem Cole
  2021-04-10 15:41         ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2021-04-10 15:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ed Bradford; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 11:34 PM Ed Bradford <egbegb2@gmail.com> wrote:

> Why did a Ph.D., an academic, and a computer scientist not know about UNIX
> in 1974 or so? 1976? In 1976, some (many?) universities had source code.
>

Some knowns/givens at the time ...
1.) He was a language/compiler type person -- he had created PL/M and that
was really what he was originally trying to show off.  As I understand it
and has been reported in other interviews, originally CP/M was an attempt
to show off what you could do with PL/M.
2.) The 8080/Z80 S-100 style machines we quite limited, they had very
little memory, no MMU, and extremely limited storage in the 8" floppies
3.) He was familiar with RT/11 and DOS-11, many Universities had it on
smaller PDP-11s as they ran on an 11/20 without an MMU also with limited
memory, and often used simple (primarily tape) storage (DECtape and
Cassette's) as the default 'laboratory' system, replacing the earlier PDP-8
for the same job which primarily ran DOS-8 in those settings.
4.) Fifth and Sixth Edition of Unix was $150 for university but to run it,
it took a larger at least 11/40 or 45, with a minimum of 64Kbytes to boot
and really need the full 256Kbytes to run acceptably and the cost of a 2.5M
byte RK05 disk was much greater per byte than tape -- thus the base system
it took to run it was at least $60K (in 1975 dollars) and typically cost
about two to four times that in practice.   Remember the cost of
acquisition of the HW dominated many (most) choices.

*I**'ll take a guess, but it is only that.*  I *suspect* he saw the S-100
system as closer to a PDP-11/20 'lab' system than as a small
timesharing machine.  He set out with CP/M to duplication the functionality
from RT/11.  He even the naming of the commands was the same as what DEC
used (*e.g.* PIP) and used the basic DEC style command syntax and parsing
rules.




>
> Bill Joy, where are you?
>
Some of us, know how to find him.  I know that at least at one time,
was made aware of this mailing list and have been invited to join it.  It
is his choice to not be a part.
ᐧ

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* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-09 21:24   ` Michael Parson
@ 2021-04-10  3:33     ` Ed Bradford
  2021-04-10 15:12       ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Ed Bradford @ 2021-04-10  3:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Michael Parson; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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The Kildall biography video is WAYYYYY informative. THANK YOU!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVqBokd3l2E

Why did a Ph.D., an academic, and a computer scientist not know about UNIX
in 1974 or so? 1976? In 1976, some (many?) universities had source code. I
had an account ("egb") on  ucbunix (University of California, Berkeley) in
1978 or so. I was one of the initial "customers" of Bill Joy's "vi".

We really need to add Bill Joy to this community. He has a LOT to add to
the history of UNIX -- especially from the view from UCB folks.

Where is Bill Joy today? Of all the folks I've ever met, Bill Joy is the
only one who, had he joined BTL 127, would have had major contributions. He
didn't. He went the route of being a founding person with Sun Microsystems.
I would have done the same.

Bill Joy, where are you?

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 4:32 PM Michael Parson <mparson@bl.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Apr 2021, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>
> > Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:41:21
> > From: Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org>
> > To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <tuhs@tuhs.org>
> > Subject: Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
> >
> > On Tue, 6 Apr 2021, M Douglas McIlroy wrote:
> >
> >> IBM famously failed to buy the well-established CP/M in 1980. (CP/M had
> >> been introduced in 1974, before the advent of the LSI-11 on which LSX
> ran.)
> >> [...]
> >
> > And unlike the popular urban myth, Gary Kildall was not out playing golf
> when
> > IBM tried to contact him.
>
> Gary Killdall was a host on PBS' "The Computer Chronicles" and they did
> a story on him after his death that covers this, as well as other info
> on his life and work with DRI.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVqBokd3l2E
>
> --
> Michael Parson
> Pflugerville, TX
>


-- 
Advice is judged by results, not by intentions.
  Cicero

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* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-06 22:41 ` Dave Horsfall
  2021-04-07  1:10   ` Jon Steinhart
@ 2021-04-09 21:24   ` Michael Parson
  2021-04-10  3:33     ` Ed Bradford
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Michael Parson @ 2021-04-09 21:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Wed, 7 Apr 2021, Dave Horsfall wrote:

> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:41:21
> From: Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org>
> To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <tuhs@tuhs.org>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
> 
> On Tue, 6 Apr 2021, M Douglas McIlroy wrote:
>
>> IBM famously failed to buy the well-established CP/M in 1980. (CP/M had 
>> been introduced in 1974, before the advent of the LSI-11 on which LSX ran.) 
>> [...]
>
> And unlike the popular urban myth, Gary Kildall was not out playing golf when 
> IBM tried to contact him.

Gary Killdall was a host on PBS' "The Computer Chronicles" and they did
a story on him after his death that covers this, as well as other info
on his life and work with DRI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVqBokd3l2E

-- 
Michael Parson
Pflugerville, TX

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-07 16:42           ` Josh Good
@ 2021-04-07 18:04             ` Charles H. Sauer
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Charles H. Sauer @ 2021-04-07 18:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

I think a few other people got mail through ibmchs while I ran it, but I 
don't remember if/who/how. I don't know anything about ibmchs after May 
1989.

On 4/7/2021 11:42 AM, Josh Good wrote:
> On 2021 Apr  6, 15:47, Charles H Sauer wrote:
> 
>> - it looks like someone kept it in place after I left IBM in 1989, since
>> http://web.mit.edu/kolya/sipb/afs/root.afs/athena.mit.edu/reference/net-directory/maps/uucp.bak/u.usa.tx.4
>> lists it in 1991
> 
> Very interesting. So I understand the email-through-UUCP duties of that
> Xenix machine were to handle not just your personal email, but the email of
> several people in a Department, was that so?
> 
> If that was the case, how did the other people read their email in the same
> Xenix machine, through serial consoles or taking turns at the VGA/CGA
> console?
> 

-- 
voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer@technologists.com
fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-06 20:47         ` Charles H Sauer
@ 2021-04-07 16:42           ` Josh Good
  2021-04-07 18:04             ` Charles H. Sauer
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Josh Good @ 2021-04-07 16:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 2021 Apr  6, 15:47, Charles H Sauer wrote:

> - it looks like someone kept it in place after I left IBM in 1989, since 
> http://web.mit.edu/kolya/sipb/afs/root.afs/athena.mit.edu/reference/net-directory/maps/uucp.bak/u.usa.tx.4 
> lists it in 1991

Very interesting. So I understand the email-through-UUCP duties of that
Xenix machine were to handle not just your personal email, but the email of
several people in a Department, was that so?

If that was the case, how did the other people read their email in the same
Xenix machine, through serial consoles or taking turns at the VGA/CGA
console?

-- 
Josh Good


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-07  6:04         ` arnold
@ 2021-04-07 16:01           ` heinz
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: heinz @ 2021-04-07 16:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: arnold; +Cc: tuhs, pepe

May 1991.

Heinz

On 2021-04-06 23:04, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> Jim Capp <jcapp@anteil.com> wrote:
> 
>> Josh,
>> 
>> At the time (1982-83), Xenix was the only Unix available to me. By 
>> 1984,
>> we upgraded to a full-fledged NCR 1632 system, with Unix SVR4.
> 
> 1984 was SVR2 time frame. SVR4 wasn't released until 1989....
> 
> At what point did AT&T buy NCR?  More like early 90s, no?
> 
> Arnold

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-06 20:26       ` Jim Capp
  2021-04-06 20:47         ` Charles H Sauer
  2021-04-07  2:49         ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2021-04-07  6:04         ` arnold
  2021-04-07 16:01           ` heinz
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2021-04-07  6:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: pepe, jcapp; +Cc: tuhs

Jim Capp <jcapp@anteil.com> wrote:

> Josh, 
>
> At the time (1982-83), Xenix was the only Unix available to me. By 1984,
> we upgraded to a full-fledged NCR 1632 system, with Unix SVR4.

1984 was SVR2 time frame. SVR4 wasn't released until 1989....

At what point did AT&T buy NCR?  More like early 90s, no?

Arnold

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-07  1:37       ` Warner Losh
@ 2021-04-07  3:38         ` Dave Horsfall
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2021-04-07  3:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Tue, 6 Apr 2021, Warner Losh wrote:

> As the author of LSX and MiniUnix, are you aware of anybody porting them 
> to another non PDP-11 architecture? ISC didn't do that at all, but maybe 
> you heard of something through the years?

hat depends on whether you count that horrible DEC mini-box or not (name 
thankfully forgotten); it was pure floppy, and we had to disable "update" 
somehow as otherwise it would wear a hole into wherever the superblock 
was.

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-06 20:26       ` Jim Capp
  2021-04-06 20:47         ` Charles H Sauer
@ 2021-04-07  2:49         ` Dave Horsfall
  2021-04-07  6:04         ` arnold
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2021-04-07  2:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Tue, 6 Apr 2021, Jim Capp wrote:

> Xenix was my first experience with *nix.  I "caught the bug" and have 
> been working with *nix ever since.

Our Xenix box (out of many Unix boxen) was called "toy" for a reason; it 
was horribly primitive (OK, it was just a '286), and no longer exists, 
thank Babbage.

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-07  2:30     ` Ed Bradford
@ 2021-04-07  2:44       ` Charles H. Sauer
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Charles H. Sauer @ 2021-04-07  2:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ed Bradford; +Cc: TUHS main list

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Not sure when started, probably 1986, continued through my departure in May 1989, and apparently the machine continued after that.

> On Apr 6, 2021, at 9:30 PM, Ed Bradford <egbegb2@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> What year was this, Charles?
> 
> Ed
> 
> 
> On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 12:33 PM Charles H Sauer <sauer@technologists.com <mailto:sauer@technologists.com>> wrote:
> For much of my last few years at IBM, my uucp machine, ibmchs, was an AT 
> running Xenix, probably that version of Xenix.
> 
> On 4/6/2021 12:09 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
> > Doug -- IIRC IBM private-labeled a Microsoft put out a version of Xenix, 
> > although I think it required an PC/AT (286)
> > ᐧ
> > 
> > On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 11:36 AM M Douglas McIlroy 
> > <m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu <mailto:m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> 
> > <mailto:m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu <mailto:m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu>>> wrote:
> > 
> >      > I wonder. IBM introduced the IBM PC in August of 1981.
> >      > That was years after a non-memory managed version of
> >      > Unix was created by Heinze Lycklama,  LSX. Is anyone
> >      > on this list familiar with Bell Labs management thoughts
> >      > on  selling IBM on LSX rather than "dos"?
> > 
> >     IBM famously failed to buy the well-established CP/M in
> >     1980. (CP/M had been introduced in 1974, before the
> >     advent of the LSI-11 on which LSX ran.) By then IBM had
> >     settled on Basic and Intel.  I do not believe they ever
> >     considered Unix and DEC, nor that AT&T considered
> >     selling to IBM. (AT&T had--fortunately--long since been
> >     rebuffed in an attempt to sell to DEC.)
> > 
> >     Doug
> > 
> 
> -- 
> voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer@technologists.com <mailto:sauer@technologists.com>
> fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
> Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter <https://technologists.com/sauer/Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter>: CharlesHSauer
> 
> 
> -- 
> Advice is judged by results, not by intentions.
>   Cicero
> 

--
voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer@technologists.com <mailto:sauer@technologists.com>           
fax: +1.512.346.5240         web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ <http://technologists.com/sauer/>
Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer


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* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-07  1:58         ` Larry McVoy
@ 2021-04-07  2:31           ` Serge Burjak
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Serge Burjak @ 2021-04-07  2:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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Serial port performance did not scale well on early pcs, so an industry was
grown with smart serial cards. There were a few serial cards, but most
 didn't have the smarts, just shared interrupts. Best performing, in my
usage, was the Stallion brand, an Australian company. These cards had their
own processor, uarts and ram. Had used 4-32 ports. I am guessing they did
high speed transfers via the high speed bus on the PC, relieving the main
CPU from getting interrupts, doing queuing, caching etc. These cards were
supported by SCO products like Xenix and Unix, some others and ran on a PC.

Flying aircraft could be efficient for some visits that didn't have direct
city pairs served by airlines, especially the US. Plus a lot of fun, if you
do it yourself.

I used to push statistical and financial data around Australia in the 80s
via dial up using automated scripting with Zmodem, Sun hosts, PC remotes.
Was very reliable.

IBM NDAs and legals can feel overwhelming in meetings....

Serge

On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 at 11:59, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 06:49:31PM -0700, Jon Steinhart wrote:
> > Greg 'groggy' Lehey writes:
> > >
> > > Another hypothesis I had ties in with this: both he and Bill Gates
> > > were speakers at Euromicro 1980 in London, from 16 to 18 September.
> > > Bill Gates was a no-show.  Would that fit in with Gary's "gone
> > > flying"?
> > >
> > > Greg
> >
> > According to Tom, no, he was visiting a somewhat local customer, I
> > think in the bay area, which is why he was flying his plane.  This
> > wasn't the modern times when CEOs owned fancy jets.
>
> Yeah, I went and looked, it was a small $5M/year (not that small)
> business and for some reason he was delivering software with his
> small plane.
>

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* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-06 17:32   ` Charles H Sauer
  2021-04-06 20:11     ` Josh Good
  2021-04-07  0:58     ` heinz
@ 2021-04-07  2:30     ` Ed Bradford
  2021-04-07  2:44       ` Charles H. Sauer
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Ed Bradford @ 2021-04-07  2:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Charles H Sauer; +Cc: TUHS main list

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What year was this, Charles?

Ed


On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 12:33 PM Charles H Sauer <sauer@technologists.com>
wrote:

> For much of my last few years at IBM, my uucp machine, ibmchs, was an AT
> running Xenix, probably that version of Xenix.
>
> On 4/6/2021 12:09 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
> > Doug -- IIRC IBM private-labeled a Microsoft put out a version of Xenix,
> > although I think it required an PC/AT (286)
> > ᐧ
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 11:36 AM M Douglas McIlroy
> > <m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu
> > <mailto:m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu>> wrote:
> >
> >      > I wonder. IBM introduced the IBM PC in August of 1981.
> >      > That was years after a non-memory managed version of
> >      > Unix was created by Heinze Lycklama,  LSX. Is anyone
> >      > on this list familiar with Bell Labs management thoughts
> >      > on  selling IBM on LSX rather than "dos"?
> >
> >     IBM famously failed to buy the well-established CP/M in
> >     1980. (CP/M had been introduced in 1974, before the
> >     advent of the LSI-11 on which LSX ran.) By then IBM had
> >     settled on Basic and Intel.  I do not believe they ever
> >     considered Unix and DEC, nor that AT&T considered
> >     selling to IBM. (AT&T had--fortunately--long since been
> >     rebuffed in an attempt to sell to DEC.)
> >
> >     Doug
> >
>
> --
> voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer@technologists.com
> fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
> Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter
> <https://technologists.com/sauer/Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter>:
> CharlesHSauer
>


-- 
Advice is judged by results, not by intentions.
  Cicero

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-07  1:49       ` Jon Steinhart
@ 2021-04-07  1:58         ` Larry McVoy
  2021-04-07  2:31           ` Serge Burjak
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2021-04-07  1:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jon Steinhart; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 06:49:31PM -0700, Jon Steinhart wrote:
> Greg 'groggy' Lehey writes:
> >
> > Another hypothesis I had ties in with this: both he and Bill Gates
> > were speakers at Euromicro 1980 in London, from 16 to 18 September.
> > Bill Gates was a no-show.  Would that fit in with Gary's "gone
> > flying"?
> >
> > Greg
> 
> According to Tom, no, he was visiting a somewhat local customer, I
> think in the bay area, which is why he was flying his plane.  This
> wasn't the modern times when CEOs owned fancy jets.

Yeah, I went and looked, it was a small $5M/year (not that small)
business and for some reason he was delivering software with his 
small plane.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-07  1:47     ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
@ 2021-04-07  1:49       ` Jon Steinhart
  2021-04-07  1:58         ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Jon Steinhart @ 2021-04-07  1:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Greg 'groggy' Lehey writes:
>
> Another hypothesis I had ties in with this: both he and Bill Gates
> were speakers at Euromicro 1980 in London, from 16 to 18 September.
> Bill Gates was a no-show.  Would that fit in with Gary's "gone
> flying"?
>
> Greg

According to Tom, no, he was visiting a somewhat local customer, I
think in the bay area, which is why he was flying his plane.  This
wasn't the modern times when CEOs owned fancy jets.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-07  1:10   ` Jon Steinhart
@ 2021-04-07  1:47     ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
  2021-04-07  1:49       ` Jon Steinhart
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey @ 2021-04-07  1:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jon Steinhart; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Tuesday,  6 April 2021 at 18:10:48 -0700, Jon Steinhart wrote:
> Dave Horsfall writes:
>> And unlike the popular urban myth, Gary Kildall was not out playing golf
>> when IBM tried to contact him.
>
> The myth that I had always heard was that he was out flying his airplane.
> I asked Tom Rolander about it a few years ago, and it turns out that it
> is true but misleading; he was coming back from a customer visit, not
> goofing off.

Another hypothesis I had ties in with this: both he and Bill Gates
were speakers at Euromicro 1980 in London, from 16 to 18 September.
Bill Gates was a no-show.  Would that fit in with Gary's "gone
flying"?

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-07  0:58     ` heinz
@ 2021-04-07  1:37       ` Warner Losh
  2021-04-07  3:38         ` Dave Horsfall
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2021-04-07  1:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: heinz; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1508 bytes --]

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 7:31 PM <heinz@osta.com> wrote:

> I developed LSX at Bell Labs in Murray Hill NJ in the 1974-1975
> timeframe.
> An existing C compiler made it possible without too much effort. The
> UNIX
> source was available to Universities by then. I also developed Mini-UNIX
> for the PDP11/10  (also no memory protection) in the 1976 timeframe.
> This source code was also made available to Universities, but the source
> code for LSX was not.
>
> Peter Weiner, the founder of INTERACTIVE Systems Corp.(ISC) in June
> 1977,
> the first commercial company to license UNIX source from Western
> Electric for $20,000. Binary licenses were available at the same time.
> I joined ISC in May of 1978 when ISC was the first company to offer
> UNIX support services to third parties. There was never any talk about
> licensing  UNIX source code from Western Electric (WE) from the founding
> of ISC to when the Intel 8086 micro became available in 1981.
> DEC never really targeted the PC market with the LSI-11 micro,
> and WE never made it easy to license binary copies of the UNIX
> source code, So LSX never really caught on in the commercial market.
> ISC was in the business of porting the UNIX source code to other
> computers, micro to mainframe, as new computer architectures
> were developed.
>

As the author of LSX and MiniUnix, are you aware of anybody porting
them to another non PDP-11 architecture? ISC didn't do that at all, but
maybe you heard of something through the years?

Warner

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-06 22:41 ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2021-04-07  1:10   ` Jon Steinhart
  2021-04-07  1:47     ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
  2021-04-09 21:24   ` Michael Parson
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Jon Steinhart @ 2021-04-07  1:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Dave Horsfall writes:
> And unlike the popular urban myth, Gary Kildall was not out playing golf 
> when IBM tried to contact him.

The myth that I had always heard was that he was out flying his airplane.
I asked Tom Rolander about it a few years ago, and it turns out that it
is true but misleading; he was coming back from a customer visit, not
goofing off.

Another thing that Tom told me was that the reason that DRI didn't sign
with IBM was that IBM wanted "we own all your stuff and you have liability
for everything" terms.  DRI wasn't willing to do that because they had a
real business; Gates had nothing and therefore had nothing to lose.

IBM was pretty heavy-handed.  A while ago a kid that I mentored asked me
to review an NDA that IBM wanted him to sign for a summer internship.  It
defined confidential material as "anything that is being done, has ever
been done, or is being contemplated by IBM, any of its subsidiaries or
assigns".  I told him not to sign it unless they were willing to add
"that we make you aware of" because there was probably nobody at IBM who
knew all of that.  So he went to Mozilla for the summer instead, got
jazzed about open source, and made a good contribution.  Then, his company
was purchased by Red Hat and then by IBM, so I guess one can't escape.

Jon

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-06 17:32   ` Charles H Sauer
  2021-04-06 20:11     ` Josh Good
@ 2021-04-07  0:58     ` heinz
  2021-04-07  1:37       ` Warner Losh
  2021-04-07  2:30     ` Ed Bradford
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: heinz @ 2021-04-07  0:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Charles H Sauer; +Cc: tuhs

I developed LSX at Bell Labs in Murray Hill NJ in the 1974-1975 
timeframe.
An existing C compiler made it possible without too much effort. The 
UNIX
source was available to Universities by then. I also developed Mini-UNIX
for the PDP11/10  (also no memory protection) in the 1976 timeframe.
This source code was also made available to Universities, but the source
code for LSX was not.

Peter Weiner, the founder of INTERACTIVE Systems Corp.(ISC) in June 
1977,
the first commercial company to license UNIX source from Western
Electric for $20,000. Binary licenses were available at the same time.
I joined ISC in May of 1978 when ISC was the first company to offer
UNIX support services to third parties. There was never any talk about
licensing  UNIX source code from Western Electric (WE) from the founding
of ISC to when the Intel 8086 micro became available in 1981.
DEC never really targeted the PC market with the LSI-11 micro,
and WE never made it easy to license binary copies of the UNIX
source code, So LSX never really caught on in the commercial market.
ISC was in the business of porting the UNIX source code to other
computers, micro to mainframe, as new computer architectures
were developed.

Heinz


On 2021-04-06 10:32, Charles H Sauer wrote:
> For much of my last few years at IBM, my uucp machine, ibmchs, was an
> AT running Xenix, probably that version of Xenix.
> 
> On 4/6/2021 12:09 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
>> Doug -- IIRC IBM private-labeled a Microsoft put out a version of 
>> Xenix, although I think it required an PC/AT (286)
>> ᐧ
>> 
>> On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 11:36 AM M Douglas McIlroy 
>> <m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu 
>> <mailto:m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu>> wrote:
>> 
>>      > I wonder. IBM introduced the IBM PC in August of 1981.
>>      > That was years after a non-memory managed version of
>>      > Unix was created by Heinze Lycklama,  LSX. Is anyone
>>      > on this list familiar with Bell Labs management thoughts
>>      > on  selling IBM on LSX rather than "dos"?
>> 
>>     IBM famously failed to buy the well-established CP/M in
>>     1980. (CP/M had been introduced in 1974, before the
>>     advent of the LSI-11 on which LSX ran.) By then IBM had
>>     settled on Basic and Intel.  I do not believe they ever
>>     considered Unix and DEC, nor that AT&T considered
>>     selling to IBM. (AT&T had--fortunately--long since been
>>     rebuffed in an attempt to sell to DEC.)
>> 
>>     Doug
>> 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-06 15:35 M Douglas McIlroy
  2021-04-06 17:09 ` Clem Cole
@ 2021-04-06 22:41 ` Dave Horsfall
  2021-04-07  1:10   ` Jon Steinhart
  2021-04-09 21:24   ` Michael Parson
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2021-04-06 22:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Tue, 6 Apr 2021, M Douglas McIlroy wrote:

> IBM famously failed to buy the well-established CP/M in 1980. (CP/M had 
> been introduced in 1974, before the advent of the LSI-11 on which LSX 
> ran.) [...]

And unlike the popular urban myth, Gary Kildall was not out playing golf 
when IBM tried to contact him.

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-06 20:11     ` Josh Good
  2021-04-06 20:26       ` Jim Capp
@ 2021-04-06 21:06       ` Clem Cole
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2021-04-06 21:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Josh Good; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2424 bytes --]

Like a lot of things, it depends.  In the early 80s, they tried to break
the 'small' computer market that had been using minis like PDP-11s or DG
Novas.   A saw a lot of small installations at places like car
dealerships and repair houses.   You strapped a cheap terminal [Wyse
25/50/60/75 were very popular].  My local Chinese restaurant still runs
with 3 Wyse 60s talking to something in the back.   It used to be a Wyse
386:16 running Xenix.

As Charlie said he ran a UUCP server on one.    Someone (3COM maybe) added
an ethernet and an 8/16 line serial board like the Rocket Board (which I
think I may still have one around) and sold them as terminal servers. to
larger systems.

A few things happen ---  the 68000 style machines such as Masscomp, Apollo,
and Sun could do the same thing much better and were not much different in
price (remember an original PC/AT 286 with max memory and DOS cost $5K at
computerland and it was another $1k for Xenix plus whatever the app cost).
Compaq was cheaper but not much.   A diskless Sun3 was 7.5K also, but you
needed at least one full Sun3 to be the server (and they also sucked, most
people bought add-in disk Unix for another 4K -- another good story for
another time]. The Apps cost the same between Xenix and Sun and that sort
of sealed the deal, particularly when the apps moved to DOS and then were
cheaper still.

So if you wanted a timing sharing box there were options that were in the
same price range and basically 'better' AND IBM/Compaq started to push DOS
and that ecosystem which was cheaper.
ᐧ

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 4:12 PM Josh Good <pepe@naleco.com> wrote:

> On 2021 Apr  6, 12:32, Charles H Sauer wrote:
> > For much of my last few years at IBM, my uucp machine, ibmchs, was an AT
> > running Xenix, probably that version of Xenix.
>
> Hi. I'm curious about that Xenix vintage. How did you use that machine:
> headless from a serial terminal?, or at the VGA console? Was it "single
> user" or shared among several people? Did you run Xenix and only SCO
> provided software, or did you had third party software in it? Were you
> using it by choice as your favourite Unix, or merely because it was the
> only Unix you could have? Did you like living with Xenix? Did it have
> problems, o was it "setup and forget"?
>
> If you feel like sharing that experience, thank you very much.
>
> --
> Josh Good
>
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-06 20:26       ` Jim Capp
@ 2021-04-06 20:47         ` Charles H Sauer
  2021-04-07 16:42           ` Josh Good
  2021-04-07  2:49         ` Dave Horsfall
  2021-04-07  6:04         ` arnold
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Charles H Sauer @ 2021-04-06 20:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

To try to answer Josh's questions:
- I used the machine from console, certainly pre-VGA, probably CGA
- I don't recall anyone else using it directly
- The primary purpose was uucp for mail and news, dialing into machines 
at UT-Austin
- I can't imagine having anything on it besides what was needed for mail 
and news
- my primary focus was AIX at the time, but hardware for AIX was scarce 
(https://notes.technologists.com/notes/2017/03/08/lets-start-at-the-very-beginning-801-romp-rtpc-aix-versions/) 
-- after I got an RT in my office, and, eventually, at home, the Xenix 
machine persisted for uucp, IIRC
- my memory was that the AT & Xenix were ok for the intended purpose
- I remember a friend questioning whether the AT was really adequate for 
9600 baud uucp, but I don't recall having problems with that
- it looks like someone kept it in place after I left IBM in 1989, since 
http://web.mit.edu/kolya/sipb/afs/root.afs/athena.mit.edu/reference/net-directory/maps/uucp.bak/u.usa.tx.4 
lists it in 1991

Charlie

On 4/6/2021 3:26 PM, Jim Capp wrote:
> Josh,
> 
> At the time (1982-83), Xenix was the only Unix available to me.  By 
> 1984, we upgraded to a full-fledged NCR 1632 system, with Unix SVR4.
> 
> Installation was through a VGA console and after it was up and running, 
> you could add serial terminals to your heart's content.
> 
> We mostly wrote our own software, but had productivity packages for word 
> processing, spreadsheets, and databases (non-SQL).
> 
> Xenix was my first experience with *nix.  I "caught the bug" and have 
> been working with *nix ever since.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From: *"Josh Good" <pepe@naleco.com>
> *To: *tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org
> *Sent: *Tuesday, April 6, 2021 4:11:19 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
> 
> On 2021 Apr  6, 12:32, Charles H Sauer wrote:
>  > For much of my last few years at IBM, my uucp machine, ibmchs, was an AT
>  > running Xenix, probably that version of Xenix.
> 
> Hi. I'm curious about that Xenix vintage. How did you use that machine:
> headless from a serial terminal?, or at the VGA console? Was it "single
> user" or shared among several people? Did you run Xenix and only SCO
> provided software, or did you had third party software in it? Were you
> using it by choice as your favourite Unix, or merely because it was the
> only Unix you could have? Did you like living with Xenix? Did it have
> problems, o was it "setup and forget"?
> 
> If you feel like sharing that experience, thank you very much.
> 
> -- 
> Josh Good
> 

-- 
voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer@technologists.com
fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-06 20:11     ` Josh Good
@ 2021-04-06 20:26       ` Jim Capp
  2021-04-06 20:47         ` Charles H Sauer
                           ` (2 more replies)
  2021-04-06 21:06       ` Clem Cole
  1 sibling, 3 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Jim Capp @ 2021-04-06 20:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Josh Good; +Cc: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1440 bytes --]

Josh, 


At the time (1982-83), Xenix was the only Unix available to me. By 1984, we upgraded to a full-fledged NCR 1632 system, with Unix SVR4. 


Installation was through a VGA console and after it was up and running, you could add serial terminals to your heart's content. 


We mostly wrote our own software, but had productivity packages for word processing, spreadsheets, and databases (non-SQL). 


Xenix was my first experience with *nix. I "caught the bug" and have been working with *nix ever since. 


Cheers, 


Jim 





From: "Josh Good" <pepe@naleco.com> 
To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org 
Sent: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 4:11:19 PM 
Subject: Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference 

On 2021 Apr 6, 12:32, Charles H Sauer wrote: 
> For much of my last few years at IBM, my uucp machine, ibmchs, was an AT 
> running Xenix, probably that version of Xenix. 

Hi. I'm curious about that Xenix vintage. How did you use that machine: 
headless from a serial terminal?, or at the VGA console? Was it "single 
user" or shared among several people? Did you run Xenix and only SCO 
provided software, or did you had third party software in it? Were you 
using it by choice as your favourite Unix, or merely because it was the 
only Unix you could have? Did you like living with Xenix? Did it have 
problems, o was it "setup and forget"? 

If you feel like sharing that experience, thank you very much. 

-- 
Josh Good 


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-06 17:09 ` Clem Cole
  2021-04-06 17:32   ` Charles H Sauer
@ 2021-04-06 20:20   ` Boyd Lynn Gerber
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Lynn Gerber @ 2021-04-06 20:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list

On Tuesday 2021-04-06 13:09, Clem Cole wrote:
> Doug -- IIRC IBM private-labeled a Microsoft put out a version of Xenix,
> although I think it required an PC/AT (286)

I had the SCO Xeinx 286 version.  It was OK, but lacked a lot of 
features.  I ran it on the Sperry IT macine.  I think was there 
equivealant machine tot the IBM AT.

-- 
Boyd Gerber <gerberb@zenez.com> 801 849-0213
ZENEZ   1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah  84047


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-06 17:32   ` Charles H Sauer
@ 2021-04-06 20:11     ` Josh Good
  2021-04-06 20:26       ` Jim Capp
  2021-04-06 21:06       ` Clem Cole
  2021-04-07  0:58     ` heinz
  2021-04-07  2:30     ` Ed Bradford
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Josh Good @ 2021-04-06 20:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 2021 Apr  6, 12:32, Charles H Sauer wrote:
> For much of my last few years at IBM, my uucp machine, ibmchs, was an AT 
> running Xenix, probably that version of Xenix.

Hi. I'm curious about that Xenix vintage. How did you use that machine:
headless from a serial terminal?, or at the VGA console? Was it "single
user" or shared among several people? Did you run Xenix and only SCO
provided software, or did you had third party software in it? Were you
using it by choice as your favourite Unix, or merely because it was the
only Unix you could have? Did you like living with Xenix? Did it have
problems, o was it "setup and forget"?

If you feel like sharing that experience, thank you very much.

-- 
Josh Good


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-06 17:09 ` Clem Cole
@ 2021-04-06 17:32   ` Charles H Sauer
  2021-04-06 20:11     ` Josh Good
                       ` (2 more replies)
  2021-04-06 20:20   ` Boyd Lynn Gerber
  1 sibling, 3 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Charles H Sauer @ 2021-04-06 17:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

For much of my last few years at IBM, my uucp machine, ibmchs, was an AT 
running Xenix, probably that version of Xenix.

On 4/6/2021 12:09 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
> Doug -- IIRC IBM private-labeled a Microsoft put out a version of Xenix, 
> although I think it required an PC/AT (286)
> ᐧ
> 
> On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 11:36 AM M Douglas McIlroy 
> <m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu 
> <mailto:m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu>> wrote:
> 
>      > I wonder. IBM introduced the IBM PC in August of 1981.
>      > That was years after a non-memory managed version of
>      > Unix was created by Heinze Lycklama,  LSX. Is anyone
>      > on this list familiar with Bell Labs management thoughts
>      > on  selling IBM on LSX rather than "dos"?
> 
>     IBM famously failed to buy the well-established CP/M in
>     1980. (CP/M had been introduced in 1974, before the
>     advent of the LSI-11 on which LSX ran.) By then IBM had
>     settled on Basic and Intel.  I do not believe they ever
>     considered Unix and DEC, nor that AT&T considered
>     selling to IBM. (AT&T had--fortunately--long since been
>     rebuffed in an attempt to sell to DEC.)
> 
>     Doug
> 

-- 
voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer@technologists.com
fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
  2021-04-06 15:35 M Douglas McIlroy
@ 2021-04-06 17:09 ` Clem Cole
  2021-04-06 17:32   ` Charles H Sauer
  2021-04-06 20:20   ` Boyd Lynn Gerber
  2021-04-06 22:41 ` Dave Horsfall
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2021-04-06 17:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: M Douglas McIlroy; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 911 bytes --]

Doug -- IIRC IBM private-labeled a Microsoft put out a version of Xenix,
although I think it required an PC/AT (286)
ᐧ

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 11:36 AM M Douglas McIlroy <
m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> wrote:

> > I wonder. IBM introduced the IBM PC in August of 1981.
> > That was years after a non-memory managed version of
> > Unix was created by Heinze Lycklama,  LSX. Is anyone
> > on this list familiar with Bell Labs management thoughts
> > on  selling IBM on LSX rather than "dos"?
>
> IBM famously failed to buy the well-established CP/M in
> 1980. (CP/M had been introduced in 1974, before the
> advent of the LSI-11 on which LSX ran.) By then IBM had
> settled on Basic and Intel.  I do not believe they ever
> considered Unix and DEC, nor that AT&T considered
> selling to IBM. (AT&T had--fortunately--long since been
> rebuffed in an attempt to sell to DEC.)
>
> Doug
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference
@ 2021-04-06 15:35 M Douglas McIlroy
  2021-04-06 17:09 ` Clem Cole
  2021-04-06 22:41 ` Dave Horsfall
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: M Douglas McIlroy @ 2021-04-06 15:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list

> I wonder. IBM introduced the IBM PC in August of 1981.
> That was years after a non-memory managed version of
> Unix was created by Heinze Lycklama,  LSX. Is anyone
> on this list familiar with Bell Labs management thoughts
> on  selling IBM on LSX rather than "dos"?

IBM famously failed to buy the well-established CP/M in
1980. (CP/M had been introduced in 1974, before the
advent of the LSI-11 on which LSX ran.) By then IBM had
settled on Basic and Intel.  I do not believe they ever
considered Unix and DEC, nor that AT&T considered
selling to IBM. (AT&T had--fortunately--long since been
rebuffed in an attempt to sell to DEC.)

Doug

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2021-04-10 18:13 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 30+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2021-04-07  0:59 [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference Jason Stevens
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2021-04-10 18:12 Paul Ruizendaal via TUHS
2021-04-06 15:35 M Douglas McIlroy
2021-04-06 17:09 ` Clem Cole
2021-04-06 17:32   ` Charles H Sauer
2021-04-06 20:11     ` Josh Good
2021-04-06 20:26       ` Jim Capp
2021-04-06 20:47         ` Charles H Sauer
2021-04-07 16:42           ` Josh Good
2021-04-07 18:04             ` Charles H. Sauer
2021-04-07  2:49         ` Dave Horsfall
2021-04-07  6:04         ` arnold
2021-04-07 16:01           ` heinz
2021-04-06 21:06       ` Clem Cole
2021-04-07  0:58     ` heinz
2021-04-07  1:37       ` Warner Losh
2021-04-07  3:38         ` Dave Horsfall
2021-04-07  2:30     ` Ed Bradford
2021-04-07  2:44       ` Charles H. Sauer
2021-04-06 20:20   ` Boyd Lynn Gerber
2021-04-06 22:41 ` Dave Horsfall
2021-04-07  1:10   ` Jon Steinhart
2021-04-07  1:47     ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2021-04-07  1:49       ` Jon Steinhart
2021-04-07  1:58         ` Larry McVoy
2021-04-07  2:31           ` Serge Burjak
2021-04-09 21:24   ` Michael Parson
2021-04-10  3:33     ` Ed Bradford
2021-04-10 15:12       ` Clem Cole
2021-04-10 15:41         ` Larry McVoy

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