[TUHS] Current Ownership of 3B/WECo Computer IPs

[TUHS] Current Ownership of 3B/WECo Computer IPs

[segaloco via TUHS]

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Hello folks, I'm here today with a question that sprung off of some 3B20 research.

When 1984 happened and ATTIS rose from the ashes of former Bell System computing efforts, presumably ATTIS received all IP rights from Western Electric for 3B processors, WE32000, and so on, and continued to sell related products through to the 3B2 line. Is this the case, is ATTIS the formal recipient of both computing software *and* hardware IPs after the breakup?

Given that, plus subsequent market flow, "old AT&T" scooped up and paraded around in effigy by SBC, other old Bell stuff cannibalized by other RBOCs, spinoffs of stuff to Novell, then Caldera/SCO on the other side...who all wound up with the hardware IPs? The story as it "concludes" concerning UNIX is of course tied up in all the subsequent lawsuits, what with Novell and Caldera conflicts on ownership, transfer to the Open Group, so on and so forth, and SCO and progeny wind up with the Sys V "trunk."

Is there a clear, current owner of these WECo hardware IPs, or have those waters grown even murkier than those of UNIX in the times after AT&T proper?

Thanks everyone!

- Matt G.

P.S. As an aside (even though it's the more directly UNIX thing...) is anything after SVR4 developments that would've involved the same folks as were working up to that point in the USL group? Or did the transfer of System V to Novell also involve their own in house folks starting to take it over, then over to SCO, is there anything post SVR4 (4.2, 5, UnixWare stuff) that would even remotely be considered the logical next step by the same folks that engineered SVR4, or was it basically just another face in the crowd of "UNIX <xyz>" when USL wasn't involved anymore? Probably not the first time this has been asked either so to a finer point I'm basically fishing for whether anything post the initial SVR4 releases in the early 90s is generally considered "pure" in any way or if the Bell streams pretty much terminate with Research V10 and SVR4, (and IX) at the turn of the 90s.

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[TUHS] Re: Current Ownership of 3B/WECo Computer IPs

[alan]

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My understanding is all the WE IP was retained through the 
Alcatel-Lucent mergers and is now owned by Nokia.  That would include 
all the 3Bx systems and WE32k.

-A

On 2023-09-10 21:11, segaloco via TUHS wrote:

> Hello folks, I'm here today with a question that sprung off of some 
> 3B20 research.
> 
> When 1984 happened and ATTIS rose from the ashes of former Bell System 
> computing efforts, presumably ATTIS received all IP rights from Western 
> Electric for 3B processors, WE32000, and so on, and continued to sell 
> related products through to the 3B2 line. Is this the case, is ATTIS 
> the formal recipient of both computing software *and* hardware IPs 
> after the breakup?
> 
> Given that, plus subsequent market flow, "old AT&T" scooped up and 
> paraded around in effigy by SBC, other old Bell stuff cannibalized by 
> other RBOCs, spinoffs of stuff to Novell, then Caldera/SCO on the other 
> side...who all wound up with the hardware IPs? The story as it 
> "concludes" concerning UNIX is of course tied up in all the subsequent 
> lawsuits, what with Novell and Caldera conflicts on ownership, transfer 
> to the Open Group, so on and so forth, and SCO and progeny wind up with 
> the Sys V "trunk."
> 
> Is there a clear, current owner of these WECo hardware IPs, or have 
> those waters grown even murkier than those of UNIX in the times after 
> AT&T proper?
> 
> Thanks everyone!
> 
> - Matt G.
> 
> P.S. As an aside (even though it's the more directly UNIX thing...) is 
> anything after SVR4 developments that would've involved the same folks 
> as were working up to that point in the USL group? Or did the transfer 
> of System V to Novell also involve their own in house folks starting to 
> take it over, then over to SCO, is there anything post SVR4 (4.2, 5, 
> UnixWare stuff) that would even remotely be considered the logical next 
> step by the same folks that engineered SVR4, or was it basically just 
> another face in the crowd of "UNIX <xyz>" when USL wasn't involved 
> anymore? Probably not the first time this has been asked either so to a 
> finer point I'm basically fishing for whether anything post the initial 
> SVR4 releases in the early 90s is generally considered "pure" in any 
> way or if the Bell streams pretty much terminate with Research V10 and 
> SVR4, (and IX) at the turn of the 90s.

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[TUHS] Re: Current Ownership of 3B/WECo Computer IPs

[Clem Cole]

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On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 9:11 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:

> Is there a clear, current owner of these WECo hardware IPs, or have those
> waters grown even murkier than those of UNIX in the times after AT&T proper?

I have never seen an unofficial, much less an official, reckoning, but if
you discover/unearth something, it will be interesting to read.

That said, you left out one piece of history.  Please remember that AT&T
bought NCR in the mid-1980s (and eventually spun it off a few years later).
The UNIX HW development was moved into the new division of the old NCR,
including the 3B series work, the WE32000, and some other semiconductor IPs.

FWIW: That occurred when I consulted for NCR's Chief Architect (Lee Hovel)
in the mid-late 80s (I did some of the analysis for Lee on what IP was
there).  But that all settled out after my contract expired, so I don't
know how it finally settled - other than I'm reasonably sure that most of
the 3B and chip development reported up through an ex-NCR exec after
purchase. Those teams and their associated IP were folded into things like
the old NCR semi-conductor, NCR Computer, *etc*..   IIRC Also, a few NCR
communications products were moved out of the old NCR team and into the old
WE folks.

So ....  I would not be surprised if when NCR was later spun back out, some
of the old AT&T IP (such as the computer HW and chip IP) went with them,
just as when Novell was sold the UNIX SW IP.  Of course, later, Lucent, ney
Alcatel, ney Nokia - got the communications IP.


ᐧ

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[TUHS] Re: Current Ownership of 3B/WECo Computer IPs

[alan]

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Let me clarify.  A few of us have reached out to various people about 
both 3B2 and WE32k information.  The main response them has been it's 
still in-use to varying degrees by customers.  I assume through 
emulation to keep legacy systems running.  And they cannot release any 
details.

The two people that would know the most about the status of that IP is 
William Caughlin [1] at the AT&T Archives and Ed Eckert - Archivist at 
Nokia Bell Labs.

-Alan

On 2023-09-10 21:35, alan@alanlee.org wrote:

> My understanding is all the WE IP was retained through the 
> Alcatel-Lucent mergers and is now owned by Nokia.  That would include 
> all the 3Bx systems and WE32k.
> 
> -A


Links:
------
[1] https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-caughlin-59571546/

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[TUHS] Re: Current Ownership of 3B/WECo Computer IPs

[segaloco via TUHS]

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Whoops, my bad, hadn't considered NCR in this train of thought.

And it sounds like the Nokia stream is a compelling direction, what with the 3B20 emulation and all that, it was a telecom processor after all. Glad to see I'm not just stumped, that it can be a little unclear.

- Matt G.

P.S. I realize my last P.S. may be more opinion oriented and/or controversial..just wanna recognize that oversight, no harm intended, different discussion for a different time

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, September 10th, 2023 at 6:43 PM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 9:11 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
>
>> Is there a clear, current owner of these WECo hardware IPs, or have those waters grown even murkier than those of UNIX in the times after AT&T proper?
>
> I have never seen an unofficial, much less an official, reckoning, but if you discover/unearth something, it will be interesting to read.
>
> That said, you left out one piece of history. Please remember that AT&T bought NCR in the mid-1980s (and eventually spun it off a few years later). The UNIX HW development was moved into the new division of the old NCR, including the 3B series work, the WE32000, and some other semiconductor IPs.
>
> FWIW: That occurred when I consulted for NCR's Chief Architect (Lee Hovel) in the mid-late 80s (I did some of the analysis for Lee on what IP was there). But that all settled out after my contract expired, so I don't know how it finally settled - other than I'm reasonably sure that most of the 3B and chip development reported up through an ex-NCR exec after purchase. Those teams and their associated IP were folded into things like the old NCR semi-conductor, NCR Computer, etc.. IIRC Also, a few NCR communications products were moved out of the old NCR team and into the old WE folks.
>
> So .... I would not be surprised if when NCR was later spun back out, some of the old AT&T IP (such as the computer HW and chip IP) went with them, just as when Novell was sold the UNIX SW IP. Of course, later, Lucent, ney Alcatel, ney Nokia - got the communications IP.
>
> ᐧ

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[TUHS] Re: Current Ownership of 3B/WECo Computer IPs

[Kevin Bowling]

On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 6:36 PM <alan@alanlee.org> wrote:
>
> My understanding is all the WE IP was retained through the Alcatel-Lucent mergers and is now owned by Nokia.  That would include all the 3Bx systems and WE32k.

I agree with this.  Lucent was supporting 3B systems at least into the
millennium, they would certainly have some rights to do so.  WE32k
I've less certainty.

> -A
>
> On 2023-09-10 21:11, segaloco via TUHS wrote:
>
> Hello folks, I'm here today with a question that sprung off of some 3B20 research.
>
> When 1984 happened and ATTIS rose from the ashes of former Bell System computing efforts, presumably ATTIS received all IP rights from Western Electric for 3B processors, WE32000, and so on, and continued to sell related products through to the 3B2 line. Is this the case, is ATTIS the formal recipient of both computing software *and* hardware IPs after the breakup?
>
> Given that, plus subsequent market flow, "old AT&T" scooped up and paraded around in effigy by SBC, other old Bell stuff cannibalized by other RBOCs, spinoffs of stuff to Novell, then Caldera/SCO on the other side...who all wound up with the hardware IPs? The story as it "concludes" concerning UNIX is of course tied up in all the subsequent lawsuits, what with Novell and Caldera conflicts on ownership, transfer to the Open Group, so on and so forth, and SCO and progeny wind up with the Sys V "trunk."
>
> Is there a clear, current owner of these WECo hardware IPs, or have those waters grown even murkier than those of UNIX in the times after AT&T proper?
>
> Thanks everyone!
>
> - Matt G.
>
> P.S. As an aside (even though it's the more directly UNIX thing...) is anything after SVR4 developments that would've involved the same folks as were working up to that point in the USL group? Or did the transfer of System V to Novell also involve their own in house folks starting to take it over, then over to SCO, is there anything post SVR4 (4.2, 5, UnixWare stuff) that would even remotely be considered the logical next step by the same folks that engineered SVR4, or was it basically just another face in the crowd of "UNIX <xyz>" when USL wasn't involved anymore? Probably not the first time this has been asked either so to a finer point I'm basically fishing for whether anything post the initial SVR4 releases in the early 90s is generally considered "pure" in any way or if the Bell streams pretty much terminate with Research V10 and SVR4, (and IX) at the turn of the 90s.
>
>

[TUHS] Re: Current Ownership of 3B/WECo Computer IPs

[Clem Cole]

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My point was it was not clear at all other than then NCR deal would have
added to the confusion. For instance I know that one of my brothers who was
doing communications chips at ATT Allentown PA that we originally for the
3B but later licensed to Apple (became FireWire I think) stayed with ATT
but one or more of his buddies ended up moving to Ohio to become part of
NCR because that was were more SCSI and FC chips were being done.


So like lots of big firms things were added and subtracted as different
deals were made.  So I’m not sure there is an easy linear progression and
while Nokia at this point clearly owns some of this but don’t be surprised
that like Unix - there are multiple firms with IP claims and unless
something happens where it takes a court to sort it out, I’m not so sure
any of here is going to be able to give you a definitive answer.




Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual


On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 10:58 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:

> Whoops, my bad, hadn't considered NCR in this train of thought.
>
> And it sounds like the Nokia stream is a compelling direction, what with
> the 3B20 emulation and all that, it was a telecom processor after all. Glad
> to see I'm not just stumped, that it can be a little unclear.
>
> - Matt G.
>
> P.S. I realize my last P.S. may be more opinion oriented and/or
> controversial..just wanna recognize that oversight, no harm intended,
> different discussion for a different time
>
> ------- Original Message -------
>
> On Sunday, September 10th, 2023 at 6:43 PM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 9:11 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
>
>> Is there a clear, current owner of these WECo hardware IPs, or have those
>> waters grown even murkier than those of UNIX in the times after AT&T proper?
>
> I have never seen an unofficial, much less an official, reckoning, but if
> you discover/unearth something, it will be interesting to read.
>
> That said, you left out one piece of history. Please remember that AT&T
> bought NCR in the mid-1980s (and eventually spun it off a few years later).
> The UNIX HW development was moved into the new division of the old NCR,
> including the 3B series work, the WE32000, and some other semiconductor IPs.
>
> FWIW: That occurred when I consulted for NCR's Chief Architect (Lee Hovel)
> in the mid-late 80s (I did some of the analysis for Lee on what IP was
> there). But that all settled out after my contract expired, so I don't know
> how it finally settled - other than I'm reasonably sure that most of the 3B
> and chip development reported up through an ex-NCR exec after purchase.
> Those teams and their associated IP were folded into things like the old
> NCR semi-conductor, NCR Computer, *etc*.. IIRC Also, a few NCR
> communications products were moved out of the old NCR team and into the old
> WE folks.
>
> So .... I would not be surprised if when NCR was later spun back out, some
> of the old AT&T IP (such as the computer HW and chip IP) went with them,
> just as when Novell was sold the UNIX SW IP. Of course, later, Lucent, ney
> Alcatel, ney Nokia - got the communications IP.
>
> ᐧ
>
>
>

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[TUHS] Re: Current Ownership of 3B/WECo Computer IPs

[Paul Winalski]

Regarding the possible Western Electric -> Lucent -> Nokia IP path,
has anyone tried contacting Nokia's legal department and asking
whether they think they own the rights to the 3B/WECo computer IP, and
if not, do they know who does (or might) own it?

-Paul W.

[TUHS] nassau smelting was Re: Current Ownership of 3B/WECo Computer IPs

[Mark Seiden]

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hi, old friends (and i mean that both figuratively and literally)

the recent/continuing brouhaha involving lead sheathed cables made me wonder about
nassau smelting and refining in staten island (a sub of WEco which ended up with Lucent) 
(and apparently another location at  W. 29th st which was a superfund site for a while.)

wonderful chaplainesque photo:

https://www.facebook.com/classicstatenisland/photos/a.286586221935407/516688818925145/?type=3

also regarding the Staten Island location, quoting from

https://www.silive.com/news/2020/02/former-nassau-smelting-site-sells-for-306m.html

"The cleanup was to entail covering 450,000 cubic yards of contaminated soil with a thick, unbreakable plastic liner, as well as layers of clean soil.”

(hah, what could go wrong with that?)

> On Sep 11, 2023, at 11:34 AM, Paul Winalski <paul.winalski@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Regarding the possible Western Electric -> Lucent -> Nokia IP path,
> has anyone tried contacting Nokia's legal department and asking
> whether they think they own the rights to the 3B/WECo computer IP, and
> if not, do they know who does (or might) own it?
> 
> -Paul W.


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[TUHS] Re: nassau smelting was Re: Current Ownership of 3B/WECo Computer IPs

[Douglas McIlroy]

Way off topic, but too nostalgic to pass up. I was involved in
after-hours training courses and persuaded Bob Morris to organize the
first one ever to be held off campus, "Bell System with field trips".
The highlight of the series was Nassau Smelting and Refining. They
proudly told us about their new environmental consciousness: aqua
regia (used to reclaim gold) was now being adjusted to pH 7 before
being dumped into the Kill van Kull, and stack emissions of lead had
been reduced from  hundreds of pounds per year to eight.

The scene was almost straight out of Agricola. An enormous steel
jousting pole mounted on a backhoe was used to shove scrap copper and
live-cut tree trunks into a ferocious green-flaming furnace. Men in
moon suits and respirators puddled slag floating on open vats of
molten lead. A Dickensian crone snipped gold tips off the old relays
cradled in her lap. Clothes, including shoes, exchanged at the door of
the gloomy gold room, were collected periodically and thrown into the
aqua regia pots to extract every last milligram.

The only process that really deviated from Agricola was pyrolysis, for
reclaiming modern cable cladding. But he surely would have been
impressed by the mechanism for casting continuous copper bar and
collecting it on a giant spool. They delighted in telling about the
time the spool stopped turning while the copper feed continued,
filling the hall with an enormous tangle of 1" copper stock.

Doug


On Mon, Sep 11, 2023 at 1:47 PM Mark Seiden <mis@seiden.com> wrote:
>
> hi, old friends (and i mean that both figuratively and literally)
>
> the recent/continuing brouhaha involving lead sheathed cables made me wonder about
> nassau smelting and refining in staten island (a sub of WEco which ended up with Lucent)
> (and apparently another location at  W. 29th st which was a superfund site for a while.)
>
> wonderful chaplainesque photo:
>
> https://www.facebook.com/classicstatenisland/photos/a.286586221935407/516688818925145/?type=3
>
> also regarding the Staten Island location, quoting from
>
> https://www.silive.com/news/2020/02/former-nassau-smelting-site-sells-for-306m.html
>
> "The cleanup was to entail covering 450,000 cubic yards of contaminated soil with a thick, unbreakable plastic liner, as well as layers of clean soil.”
>
> (hah, what could go wrong with that?)
>
> On Sep 11, 2023, at 11:34 AM, Paul Winalski <paul.winalski@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Regarding the possible Western Electric -> Lucent -> Nokia IP path,
> has anyone tried contacting Nokia's legal department and asking
> whether they think they own the rights to the 3B/WECo computer IP, and
> if not, do they know who does (or might) own it?
>
> -Paul W.
>
>

[TUHS] Re: nassau smelting was Re: Current Ownership of 3B/WECo Computer IPs

[Douglas McIlroy]

> i’m having trouble identifying “Agricola”.

See WIkipedia on "De re metallica", or for the real thing
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/38015/38015-h/38015-h.htm

On Mon, Sep 11, 2023 at 4:29 PM Mark Seiden <mis@seiden.com> wrote:
>
>  i’m so happy you replied.
>
> have you considered a memoir?
>
> your writing is very vivid (and literate).
>
> but i’m having trouble identifying “Agricola”.
>
> the strategy board game?  the roman emperor? the farm to table restaurant in princeton?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 11, 2023, at 3:58 PM, Douglas McIlroy <douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Way off topic, but too nostalgic to pass up. I was involved in
> > after-hours training courses and persuaded Bob Morris to organize the
> > first one ever to be held off campus, "Bell System with field trips".
> > The highlight of the series was Nassau Smelting and Refining. They
> > proudly told us about their new environmental consciousness: aqua
> > regia (used to reclaim gold) was now being adjusted to pH 7 before
> > being dumped into the Kill van Kull, and stack emissions of lead had
> > been reduced from  hundreds of pounds per year to eight.
> >
> > The scene was almost straight out of Agricola. An enormous steel
> > jousting pole mounted on a backhoe was used to shove scrap copper and
> > live-cut tree trunks into a ferocious green-flaming furnace. Men in
> > moon suits and respirators puddled slag floating on open vats of
> > molten lead. A Dickensian crone snipped gold tips off the old relays
> > cradled in her lap. Clothes, including shoes, exchanged at the door of
> > the gloomy gold room, were collected periodically and thrown into the
> > aqua regia pots to extract every last milligram.
> >
> > The only process that really deviated from Agricola was pyrolysis, for
> > reclaiming modern cable cladding. But he surely would have been
> > impressed by the mechanism for casting continuous copper bar and
> > collecting it on a giant spool. They delighted in telling about the
> > time the spool stopped turning while the copper feed continued,
> > filling the hall with an enormous tangle of 1" copper stock.
> >
> > Doug
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 11, 2023 at 1:47 PM Mark Seiden <mis@seiden.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> hi, old friends (and i mean that both figuratively and literally)
> >>
> >> the recent/continuing brouhaha involving lead sheathed cables made me wonder about
> >> nassau smelting and refining in staten island (a sub of WEco which ended up with Lucent)
> >> (and apparently another location at  W. 29th st which was a superfund site for a while.)
> >>
> >> wonderful chaplainesque photo:
> >>
> >> https://www.facebook.com/classicstatenisland/photos/a.286586221935407/516688818925145/?type=3
> >>
> >> also regarding the Staten Island location, quoting from
> >>
> >> https://www.silive.com/news/2020/02/former-nassau-smelting-site-sells-for-306m.html
> >>
> >> "The cleanup was to entail covering 450,000 cubic yards of contaminated soil with a thick, unbreakable plastic liner, as well as layers of clean soil.”
> >>
> >> (hah, what could go wrong with that?)
> >>
> >> On Sep 11, 2023, at 11:34 AM, Paul Winalski <paul.winalski@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Regarding the possible Western Electric -> Lucent -> Nokia IP path,
> >> has anyone tried contacting Nokia's legal department and asking
> >> whether they think they own the rights to the 3B/WECo computer IP, and
> >> if not, do they know who does (or might) own it?
> >>
> >> -Paul W.
> >>
> >>
>