[9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Blake McBride]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 286 bytes --]

Greetings,

I've searched the net to find a way to add a new user.  The following
command doesn't work:

con -l /srv/fscons

I gather that command is for fossil, and fossil isn't used anymore.  I
poked around /srv but couldn't find a substitute.  Appreciate any help.

Blake

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 510 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Sergey Zhilkin]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1466 bytes --]

Hello !
>From - https://code.google.com/p/plan9front/wiki/admin
Adding Users

Add a new user on the file server:

echo newuser username >>/srv/cwfs.cmd

If needed, make the new user a member of the upas (email) group:

echo newuser upas +username >>/srv/cwfs.cmd

The newuser filesystem command is described in the
fs(8)<http://man.aiju.de/8/fs> manpage.
Examine the '/adm/users' file to investigate the results.

To add a new user to the auth server, make sure auth/keyfs is running, then
set an auth password for the user:

auth/changeuser username

New users are created without a profile, mail directory, tmp directory
(needed to edit files with sam) or other confections. To install a default
profile for a new user, upon first login, run:

. /sys/lib/newuser

then edit /usr/username/lib/profile to your own specifications.

See cwfs(4) <http://man.aiju.de/4/cwfs> and fs(8) <http://man.aiju.de/8/fs>
 and auth(8) <http://man.aiju.de/8/auth>.




2013/12/23 Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>

> Greetings,
>
> I've searched the net to find a way to add a new user.  The following
> command doesn't work:
>
> con -l /srv/fscons
>
> I gather that command is for fossil, and fossil isn't used anymore.  I
> poked around /srv but couldn't find a substitute.  Appreciate any help.
>
> Blake
>
>


-- 
С наилучшими пожеланиями
Жилкин Сергей
With best regards
Zhilkin Sergey

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6176 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Matthew Veety]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1735 bytes --]

It's not super required to add a new user on standalone systems. Obviously file/auth servers have more of a need. You're system isn't less secure using Glenda. You're going to be host owner no matter what user you use.

> On Dec 23, 2013, at 0:19, Sergey Zhilkin <szhilkin@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello ! 
> 
> From - https://code.google.com/p/plan9front/wiki/admin
> Adding Users
> 
> Add a new user on the file server:
> 
> 
> echo newuser username >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
> If needed, make the new user a member of the upas (email) group:
> 
> 
> echo newuser upas +username >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
> The newuser filesystem command is described in the fs(8) manpage. Examine the '/adm/users' file to investigate the results.
> 
> To add a new user to the auth server, make sure auth/keyfs is running, then set an auth password for the user:
> 
> 
> auth/changeuser username
> New users are created without a profile, mail directory, tmp directory (needed to edit files with sam) or other confections. To install a default profile for a new user, upon first login, run:
> 
> 
> . /sys/lib/newuser
> then edit /usr/username/lib/profile to your own specifications.
> 
> See cwfs(4) and fs(8) and auth(8).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2013/12/23 Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>
>> Greetings,
>> 
>> I've searched the net to find a way to add a new user.  The following command doesn't work:
>> 
>> con -l /srv/fscons
>> 
>> I gather that command is for fossil, and fossil isn't used anymore.  I poked around /srv but couldn't find a substitute.  Appreciate any help.
>> 
>> Blake
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> С наилучшими пожеланиями
> Жилкин Сергей
> With best regards
> Zhilkin Sergey

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6559 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Richard Miller]

> I gather that command is for fossil, and fossil isn't used anymore.

Fossil is still the standard disk file system for Plan 9.

Trying to use 9front by following Plan 9 documentation, or vice versa,
is likely to lead to much frustration.

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[erik quanstrom]

> It's not super required to add a new user on standalone systems.
> Obviously file/auth servers have more of a need.  You're system isn't
> less secure using Glenda.  You're going to be host owner no matter
> what user you use.
>

ah, but being hostowner gives you no special status on the file
server.  this is a key difference with unix "root".  so even on
a single-user machine, one may wish to run as a user with fewer
permissions.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Richard Miller]

> ah, but being hostowner gives you no special status on the file
> server.

Which file server are you referring to?  In the case of Plan 9 and fossil,
hostowner can talk to /srv/fscons which is effectively root power.

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[erik quanstrom]

On Mon Dec 23 08:47:19 EST 2013, 9fans@hamnavoe.com wrote:
> > ah, but being hostowner gives you no special status on the file
> > server.
>
> Which file server are you referring to?  In the case of Plan 9 and fossil,
> hostowner can talk to /srv/fscons which is effectively root power.

i considered that, but felt it was still worth pointing out because
a)  on unix, root can remove nearly everything with rm; being the hostowner
itself gives you no such priviliges.  the fact that there is often a fscons
to override this is not quite the same thing.  at a minimum, it provides
fat-finger protection.  and but for the fact there is no other way to
safely shutdown fossil, it could be omitted.
b)  if you do add terminals or other cpu servers, #s/fscons will not be
accessable if a different hostowner is used.

perhaps i've missed the point, but they don't quite look the same to me.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Blake McBride]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1668 bytes --]

Thanks.  I ended up editing /adm/users directly.  That seemed to work.


On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Sergey Zhilkin <szhilkin@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello !
> From - https://code.google.com/p/plan9front/wiki/admin
> Adding Users
>
> Add a new user on the file server:
>
> echo newuser username >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
>
> If needed, make the new user a member of the upas (email) group:
>
> echo newuser upas +username >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
>
> The newuser filesystem command is described in the fs(8)<http://man.aiju.de/8/fs> manpage.
> Examine the '/adm/users' file to investigate the results.
>
> To add a new user to the auth server, make sure auth/keyfs is running,
> then set an auth password for the user:
>
> auth/changeuser username
>
> New users are created without a profile, mail directory, tmp directory
> (needed to edit files with sam) or other confections. To install a
> default profile for a new user, upon first login, run:
>
> . /sys/lib/newuser
>
> then edit /usr/username/lib/profile to your own specifications.
>
> See cwfs(4) <http://man.aiju.de/4/cwfs> and fs(8)<http://man.aiju.de/8/fs>
>  and auth(8) <http://man.aiju.de/8/auth>.
>
>
>
>
> 2013/12/23 Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>
>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> I've searched the net to find a way to add a new user.  The following
>> command doesn't work:
>>
>> con -l /srv/fscons
>>
>> I gather that command is for fossil, and fossil isn't used anymore.  I
>> poked around /srv but couldn't find a substitute.  Appreciate any help.
>>
>> Blake
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> С наилучшими пожеланиями
> Жилкин Сергей
> With best regards
> Zhilkin Sergey
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6338 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Blake McBride]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 500 bytes --]

On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Sergey Zhilkin <szhilkin@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello !
> From - https://code.google.com/p/plan9front/wiki/admin
> Adding Users
>
> Add a new user on the file server:
>
> echo newuser username >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
>
> The newuser filesystem command is described in the fs(8)<http://man.aiju.de/8/fs>
>  manpage. Examine the '/adm/users' file to investigate the results.
>

The above echo command did nothing to the /adm/users file for me on
vanilla 9front.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3072 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Bence Fábián]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 644 bytes --]

Did you append or truncate. That command should work.


2013/12/23 Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>

>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Sergey Zhilkin <szhilkin@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hello !
>> From - https://code.google.com/p/plan9front/wiki/admin
>> Adding Users
>>
>> Add a new user on the file server:
>>
>> echo newuser username >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
>>
>> The newuser filesystem command is described in the fs(8)<http://man.aiju.de/8/fs>
>>  manpage. Examine the '/adm/users' file to investigate the results.
>>
>
> The above echo command did nothing to the /adm/users file for me on
> vanilla 9front.
>
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2760 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[cinap_lenrek]

that command file is really a bidirectional pipe. you didnt
read the pipe so you do not see the command response.

to get in a interactive dialog with the fileserver, you can run:

con -Cl /srv/cwfs.cmd

to leave this dialog, enter <Ctrl>+\<enter> and on cons >>>
prompt, type q

the fileserver console commands for cwfs are described in fs(8).

note, this is for the cwfs fileserver. the standard labs plan9
uses a the fossil fileserver which has different set of commands
and uses /srv/fscons command file by convention.

please take your time. read nemos book, the manuals and the
the wiki. do some exploration before you want to setup everything
to your liking. this is the 2nd step before the first.

--
cinap

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[sl]

> The above echo command did nothing to the /adm/users file for me on
> vanilla 9front.

Has anyone verified that he's even running cwfs?

sl

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Blake McBride]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1245 bytes --]

It works now.  The docs were unclear to me.  For example, this works:

echo newuser george >>/srv/cwfs.cmd

And this does not work (unsupprisingly):

echo george george >>/srv/cwfs.cmd

Unless you really look at it, it is unclear when to make a substitution (or
fill in a variable), and when to type it literally.  Perhaps the docs
should say:

echo newuser <username>  >>/srv/cwfs.cmd

where <username> is the name of the new user (without the <>).

Thanks.

Blake



On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Bence Fábián <begnoc@gmail.com> wrote:

> Did you append or truncate. That command should work.
>
>
> 2013/12/23 Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Sergey Zhilkin <szhilkin@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Hello !
>>> From - https://code.google.com/p/plan9front/wiki/admin
>>> Adding Users
>>>
>>> Add a new user on the file server:
>>>
>>> echo newuser username >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
>>>
>>> The newuser filesystem command is described in the fs(8)<http://man.aiju.de/8/fs>
>>>  manpage. Examine the '/adm/users' file to investigate the results.
>>>
>>
>> The above echo command did nothing to the /adm/users file for me on
>> vanilla 9front.
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5657 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Blake McBride]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1617 bytes --]

Or perhaps:

echo newuser USER-NAME  >>/srv/cwfs.cmd

replace USER-NAME with the new user's name.  If most commands are in
lowercase, it might make sense to use uppercase names as things that need
to be specified.


On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name> wrote:

> It works now.  The docs were unclear to me.  For example, this works:
>
> echo newuser george >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
>
> And this does not work (unsupprisingly):
>
> echo george george >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
>
> Unless you really look at it, it is unclear when to make a substitution
> (or fill in a variable), and when to type it literally.  Perhaps the docs
> should say:
>
> echo newuser <username>  >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
>
> where <username> is the name of the new user (without the <>).
>
> Thanks.
>
> Blake
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Bence Fábián <begnoc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Did you append or truncate. That command should work.
>>
>>
>> 2013/12/23 Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Sergey Zhilkin <szhilkin@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello !
>>>> From - https://code.google.com/p/plan9front/wiki/admin
>>>> Adding Users
>>>>
>>>> Add a new user on the file server:
>>>>
>>>> echo newuser username >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
>>>>
>>>> The newuser filesystem command is described in the fs(8)<http://man.aiju.de/8/fs>
>>>>  manpage. Examine the '/adm/users' file to investigate the results.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The above echo command did nothing to the /adm/users file for me on
>>> vanilla 9front.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6142 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Kurt H Maier]

Quoting Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>:

> Or perhaps:
>
> echo newuser USER-NAME  >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
>
> replace USER-NAME with the new user's name.  If most commands are in
> lowercase, it might make sense to use uppercase names as things that need
> to be specified.

Or perhaps we use the documentation as a way to weed out people who cannot
reason.

khm

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Richard Miller]

> If most commands are in
> lowercase, it might make sense to use uppercase names as things that need
> to be specified.

If you view man pages as typeset with troff, you will see them
in their full glory with syntactic categories suggested by different
fonts.  Instead of typing 'man cmd'  try 'man -t cmd | page'.

[Replace 'cmd' with the name of a command ... ]

[[But don't type the 's]]

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[cinap_lenrek]

or man -p

--
cinap

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[erik quanstrom]

On Mon Dec 23 14:30:58 EST 2013, cinap_lenrek@felloff.net wrote:
> or man -p

an equiv would be "man -P", but "man -p" does work, though it's
a completely different approach and looks different due to font
handling.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Blake McBride]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1004 bytes --]

Documentation is always clear to people who already know the material but
use the documentation as a reminder.  It is difficult for a newbie to
differentiate out-of-date material, branch specific material, and valid
documentation.  I am providing feedback from a newbie's perspective.  You
can either take advantage of some of the feedback to make it easier for a
newbie (that cannot reason) thus increasing the number of users, or you can
insult them until they leave.  I apologize for not being as smart as you.


On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:

> Quoting Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>:
>
>  Or perhaps:
>>
>> echo newuser USER-NAME  >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
>>
>> replace USER-NAME with the new user's name.  If most commands are in
>> lowercase, it might make sense to use uppercase names as things that need
>> to be specified.
>>
>
> Or perhaps we use the documentation as a way to weed out people who cannot
> reason.
>
> khm
>
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2434 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[erik quanstrom]

On Mon Dec 23 15:04:54 EST 2013, blake@mcbride.name wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
> > Or perhaps we use the documentation as a way to weed out people who cannot
> > reason.
>
> Documentation is always clear to people who already know the material but
> use the documentation as a reminder.  It is difficult for a newbie to
> differentiate out-of-date material, branch specific material, and valid
> documentation.  I am providing feedback from a newbie's perspective.  You
> can either take advantage of some of the feedback to make it easier for a
> newbie (that cannot reason) thus increasing the number of users, or you can
> insult them until they leave.  I apologize for not being as smart as you.

i see no need for an exclusive community.

i was attracted to plan 9 by simplicity; the concepts were easy to
understand.  if you can explain how to get to wall-mart, you can
explain why plan 9 is interesting.

plan 9 4th ed had really excellent documentation.  we haven't done
as good a job keeping up as we could have, and there is room for
improvement.  i am not sure if this particular example follows them,
but man(6) should explain some of the typograpic conventions.
there may be better references, but they don't come to mind.

happy hacking season.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Rubén Berenguel]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2133 bytes --]

I somewhat agree that some of the answers you are getting have somewhat
been (sometimes, not all, and not constantly) been insulting. But a year or
so ago I was also a Plan9 newbie, and I just read the manuals when I didn't
know how to do something. I followed some long-ago-read advice of first
smashing my head against the keyboard before asking the "online guru." And
by no means I'm an expert in systems programming, other *nixes or anything
beside a small branch of mathematics (and this is fading, since I'm no
longer actively researching) and a lot of stuff used in SEO and related
areas by constant daily use at work.

 I have probably read acme(1) and acme(4) more than 70 times in the past
year, and probably double that for plumb and plumber (in all of their
sections.) And there are still a lot of things I don't understand when
interacting with them, just the other day dove into acme's source to answer
a question in #plan9 (about what the Abort command does.)

Ruben


On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name> wrote:

> Documentation is always clear to people who already know the material but
> use the documentation as a reminder.  It is difficult for a newbie to
> differentiate out-of-date material, branch specific material, and valid
> documentation.  I am providing feedback from a newbie's perspective.  You
> can either take advantage of some of the feedback to make it easier for a
> newbie (that cannot reason) thus increasing the number of users, or you can
> insult them until they leave.  I apologize for not being as smart as you.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
>
>> Quoting Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>:
>>
>>  Or perhaps:
>>>
>>> echo newuser USER-NAME  >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
>>>
>>> replace USER-NAME with the new user's name.  If most commands are in
>>> lowercase, it might make sense to use uppercase names as things that
>>> need
>>> to be specified.
>>>
>>
>> Or perhaps we use the documentation as a way to weed out people who cannot
>> reason.
>>
>> khm
>>
>>
>>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3185 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[cinap_lenrek]

right right. my mistake. :)

--
cinap

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Blake McBride]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2574 bytes --]

Thanks for the input.  I am making an increased effort to search before
asking.  I intuitively sense that Plan 9 has something significant to offer
based on the little I know.  The actual mechanics have been a challenge for
me.  Constructive feedback is deeply appreciated.


On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Rubén Berenguel <ruben@mostlymaths.net>wrote:

> I somewhat agree that some of the answers you are getting have somewhat
> been (sometimes, not all, and not constantly) been insulting. But a year or
> so ago I was also a Plan9 newbie, and I just read the manuals when I didn't
> know how to do something. I followed some long-ago-read advice of first
> smashing my head against the keyboard before asking the "online guru." And
> by no means I'm an expert in systems programming, other *nixes or anything
> beside a small branch of mathematics (and this is fading, since I'm no
> longer actively researching) and a lot of stuff used in SEO and related
> areas by constant daily use at work.
>
>  I have probably read acme(1) and acme(4) more than 70 times in the past
> year, and probably double that for plumb and plumber (in all of their
> sections.) And there are still a lot of things I don't understand when
> interacting with them, just the other day dove into acme's source to answer
> a question in #plan9 (about what the Abort command does.)
>
> Ruben
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name> wrote:
>
>> Documentation is always clear to people who already know the material but
>> use the documentation as a reminder.  It is difficult for a newbie to
>> differentiate out-of-date material, branch specific material, and valid
>> documentation.  I am providing feedback from a newbie's perspective.  You
>> can either take advantage of some of the feedback to make it easier for a
>> newbie (that cannot reason) thus increasing the number of users, or you can
>> insult them until they leave.  I apologize for not being as smart as you.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Quoting Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>:
>>>
>>>  Or perhaps:
>>>>
>>>> echo newuser USER-NAME  >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
>>>>
>>>> replace USER-NAME with the new user's name.  If most commands are in
>>>> lowercase, it might make sense to use uppercase names as things that
>>>> need
>>>> to be specified.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Or perhaps we use the documentation as a way to weed out people who
>>> cannot
>>> reason.
>>>
>>> khm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3892 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Kurt H Maier]

Quoting Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>:

> Documentation is always clear to people who already know the material but
> use the documentation as a reminder.  It is difficult for a newbie to
> differentiate out-of-date material, branch specific material, and valid
> documentation.  I am providing feedback from a newbie's perspective.  You
> can either take advantage of some of the feedback to make it easier for a
> newbie (that cannot reason) thus increasing the number of users, or you can
> insult them until they leave.  I apologize for not being as smart as you.


The documentation was not out-of-date or branch specific.  The only problems
you had with adding a user were born of your assumptions.  You keep googling
things, but google only helps you find information when you don't already
know where it is.  9front has a wiki, doc.cat-v.org exists, /sys/doc exists,
and man pages come free with each installation.

Speaking of assumptions, I'm not convinced 'increasing the number of users'
does anyone any good.  It didn't help Windows any.

khm

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Steve Simon]

	There is too much to learn, so one must be selective.

	Much published is not worth learning.

	Plan9 is worthy.

	Persevere!


Almost a haiku...

-Steve

PS: Been on the whiskey, sorry. Merry Christmas everyone.

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Blake McBride]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 809 bytes --]

On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:

> ...
>
> Speaking of assumptions, I'm not convinced 'increasing the number of users'
> does anyone any good.  It didn't help Windows any.
>
> khm
>

Although number of users may not translate into a quality system (Microsoft
is a prime example), number of users does translate into testers with some
valid feedback, code contributors, vendor driver support, and money to pay
core contributors (you?) among many other advantages.  The best advantage
of any networking system comes when an increased number of people use it so
that the value offered by the networking system can be utilized and
appreciated.  There is value in a community.  On the other hand, you can
live in a cave and do whatever you like if you wish.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1382 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Matthew Veety]

On Dec 23, 2013, at 16:45, Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name> wrote:
> money to pay core contributors (you?)

http://mveety.com/just-send-the-money

All proceeds go to me, the majority of which then go to khm.

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[sl]

> There is value in a community.

What remains of Plan 9 might be a better example of failing to seek
out community in order to preserve the value, which is sometimes
not clearly perceived by the interested few who show up at the party.

Conversely, UNIX diverged from its original design philosophy and was
adopted by progressively larger communities, finally becoming something
of a global standard, where it still enjoys great popularity.

What remains of UNIX is sometimes difficult to recognize.

http://harmful.cat-v.org/cat-v

sl

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[erik quanstrom]

On Mon Dec 23 17:10:13 EST 2013, sl@9front.org wrote:
> > There is value in a community.
>
> What remains of Plan 9 might be a better example of failing to seek
> out community in order to preserve the value, which is sometimes
> not clearly perceived by the interested few who show up at the party.

isn't this a false dichotomy?  rudeness doesn't preserve value.

> Conversely, UNIX diverged from its original design philosophy and was
> adopted by progressively larger communities, finally becoming something
> of a global standard, where it still enjoys great popularity.
>
> What remains of UNIX is sometimes difficult to recognize.

it's easy to point out past mistakes.  do you think these were obvious
at the time they were made?

the relevance for me is i don't want to help repeat these mistakes.
the ucb and system iii, and system v distributions intended to make
the labs' distributions more useful.  it's easy now to point out where
mistakes were made.  how do we guard against making the
same ones ourselves?  trying to guide 9atom along, i worry a lot
about this.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[sl]

>> What remains of Plan 9 might be a better example of failing to seek
>> out community in order to preserve the value, which is sometimes
>> not clearly perceived by the interested few who show up at the party.
>
> isn't this a false dichotomy?  rudeness doesn't preserve value.

The TUPE[0] -related material is a valuable reference point in this discussion
specifically because it's all thirty years old. This tension between technical
and social pressures is nothing new.

I'm not specifically advocating rudeness, but it's worth pointing out that
more than one book written by former Bell Labs staff specifically accuses
our 1127 heroes of indulging in precisely this sort of conceitedness (not
my word) and condescension towards outsiders. I bring this up only to
illustrate what people choose to focus upon, and what they choose to
ignore. The complaints are always the same, whether it is Rob Pike or
Theo de Raadt who has made someone cry. The objections, -- no,
demands -- are always the same sort of "I'm new new guy, treat my bad
ideas as if they were good ideas, or I'll tell everyone you're a jerk" attempts
at social extortion that are familiar to anyone who has ever worked on an
open source software project. Worse, now, as "community" has become the
central concern of many such projects. How many times have you seen
someone declare that they refuse to use OpenBSD simply because Theo
made some crazy remark? This is the level at which the discourse occurs.

Meanwhile, there is the code. Which operating system with lots of
developers and lots of users is not terrible? Do we posit some connection
between the social structure of operating system development (as we've
observed it) and the end result? What are the lessons learned?

Ken referred to open source as "open sewers." Theo runs his project with
an iron fist, and if you don't like it, you're free to spend your time somewhere
else. Neither of these attitudes are conducive to the type of inclusiveness
sought after by those who concern themselves primarily with community.
In the case of Bell Labs, their code was not even widely circulated to
the general public for much of the period in question. Thought exercise:
Try to recall how gladly fools were suffered in the early days of the 9fans
mailing list.

At some point, you have to stop entertaining the bad ideas and work on
the good ones, even if that makes some people unhappy. This is how we
got UNIX (and later, Plan 9) in the first place.

It is possible this perspective has been expressed more gracefully elsewhere.


>> What remains of UNIX is sometimes difficult to recognize.
>
> it's easy to point out past mistakes.  do you think these were obvious
> at the time they were made?

The class of mistakes we are dealing with today were not acknowedged in
1983 and are still not acknowledged today. The entire "software tools"
philosophy was rejected, long ago, and as Rob pointed out, perl delivered
the elegy. This is rendered obvious when a longtime UNIX user tries out
Plan 9 for the first time. Go on, I'm sure you can predict the first several
complaints that will be voiced.

Was this rejection intentional? Did they (the perpetrators) really disagree
with the perspective of the UNIX authors, or were they simply ignorant of
the arguments being presented? I certainly was, until the existence of the
documents I keep linking to was brought to my attention. In your
experience, how well does the average UNIX enthusiast understand
these ideas, and how are they received, when explained?

Well, there are hordes of these people at the gate, and they are insisting that
we honor their demands as a matter of course. All of their bad ideas MUST
go into the system. NOW. Or else you're a jerk. What? You think our ideas
need more time to develop? That's not a very nice thing to say. I demand that
you take us seriously, RIGHT NOW. Gee, you guys think you're so smart! Your
privilege is showing!

What if we open the gate, just a crack...

The whole question of rudeness is based upon the false premise that it makes
sense to treat each new airing of a bad idea as if it were the first expression
of a potential breakthrough. Limited resources are quickly consumed by public
relations. Projects that have produced material of value typically eschew these
exercises in favor of doing the real work.

sl

[0] The UNIX Programming Environment, by Brian W. Kernighan and Rob Pike

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Kurt H Maier]

Quoting erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>:

> On Mon Dec 23 17:10:13 EST 2013, sl@9front.org wrote:

> isn't this a false dichotomy?  rudeness doesn't preserve value.

Neither does gladhanding.

> it's easy to point out past mistakes.  do you think these were obvious
> at the time they were made?

Whether they were obvious is too subjective to determine.  They were
(often very loudly) recognized as mistakes.  The problem, as usual,
is that a well-funded mistake is far more likely to succeed than an
impoverished masterpiece.

Obvious?  I'll never know.  But people I respect decried lots of these
decisions at the time they were made.  Without getting into the chicken-
and-egg problem of how I came to respect some of these people, in a lot
of cases, stumbling across an angry netnews missive from a usenet address
I trusted was catalytic in my process of coming to grips with some
understanding of correct software design.

The Unix Hater's Handbook is a collection of articles in this vein; there
are systems eulogized therein which were displaced by the rise of unix,
and whose passing makes me truly sad to have missed out on an era of
computing with real diversity in system design.

This is why harmful.cat-v.org is so important, and it's why I don't have
any interest in suffering fools on internet mailing lists.  If community
is important in guiding software trends, it's important to nip encroaching
macrocultures in the bud; otherwise we wind up with POSIX everywhere, and
an entire generation of computer users who can't even conceive of a world
without it.

People like Blake can present me with bullshit about 'living in a cave' all
day long -- but the surest way to prevent mistakes is to cause people to
defend proposed change within an inch of their lives.  That's the original
point of a thesis defense, and the principal is no less valid on a mail
list.  Most people seem to take such challenges personally;  this is just
because they're not used to being challenged.  It will pass.

khm

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Kurt H Maier]

Quoting Blake McBride <blake@mcbride.name>:

> There is value in a community.

Irrelevant; the question at hand is whether your specific participation
in a community enhances its value.

> On the other hand, you can live in a cave and do whatever you like
> if you wish.

*This* is a false dichotomy. I choose *not* to live in a cave *and* to do
whatever I like.

khm

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[andrey mirtchovski]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 171 bytes --]

I feel a "community code of conduct" doc forthcoming in this list's future.

I'll copy/pasta the one from go-nuts, where the discussion surrounding
it was very lively

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 226 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Skip Tavakkolian]

Please make sure to include "tact sucks" on the list.

> On Dec 23, 2013, at 4:57 PM, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchovski@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I feel a "community code of conduct" doc forthcoming in this list's future.
> 
> I'll copy/pasta the one from go-nuts, where the discussion surrounding it was very lively

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Bruce Ellis]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 703 bytes --]

A quote I like from the 80s at the Labs - "netnews is like standing up in a
crowded theater and shouting 'anyone wanna buy a used car?'".

Please consider when posting to his list that you might be doing the same.
(Not directed at anyone specifically).

brucee




On 24 December 2013 13:49, Skip Tavakkolian <skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com>wrote:

> Please make sure to include "tact sucks" on the list.
>
> > On Dec 23, 2013, at 4:57 PM, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchovski@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I feel a "community code of conduct" doc forthcoming in this list's
> future.
> >
> > I'll copy/pasta the one from go-nuts, where the discussion surrounding
> it was very lively
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1243 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Steffen Daode Nurpmeso]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 855 bytes --]

Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
 |This is why harmful.cat-v.org is so important, and it's why I don't have

These pages contain indeed several of the most stupid things
i have read in a very long time.

 |macrocultures in the bud; otherwise we wind up with POSIX everywhere, and
 |an entire generation of computer users who can't even conceive of a world
 |without it.

Never has there been a more versatile freely accessible
environment than today, both, systems and languages.
And cheap, energy efficient computers for poor kids, which is
a good thing, though indeed wasting resources is per se not a good
thing, which intelligent tribes with highly sophisticated cultures
knew several thousand years ago already.  That is why we have
superseeded them.  And that is why harmful is harmful, imho.
Not that it matters.

--steffen

[-- Attachment #2: Original message content --]
[-- Type: message/rfc822, Size: 6148 bytes --]

From: Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net>
Subject: Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:54:19 +0000
Message-ID: <20131223235419.Horde.Ld29eJHbaIBoe0oX_BOLhQ2@ssl.eumx.net>

Quoting erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>:

> On Mon Dec 23 17:10:13 EST 2013, sl@9front.org wrote:

> isn't this a false dichotomy?  rudeness doesn't preserve value.

Neither does gladhanding.

> it's easy to point out past mistakes.  do you think these were obvious
> at the time they were made?

Whether they were obvious is too subjective to determine.  They were
(often very loudly) recognized as mistakes.  The problem, as usual,
is that a well-funded mistake is far more likely to succeed than an
impoverished masterpiece.

Obvious?  I'll never know.  But people I respect decried lots of these
decisions at the time they were made.  Without getting into the chicken-
and-egg problem of how I came to respect some of these people, in a lot
of cases, stumbling across an angry netnews missive from a usenet address
I trusted was catalytic in my process of coming to grips with some
understanding of correct software design.

The Unix Hater's Handbook is a collection of articles in this vein; there
are systems eulogized therein which were displaced by the rise of unix,
and whose passing makes me truly sad to have missed out on an era of
computing with real diversity in system design.

This is why harmful.cat-v.org is so important, and it's why I don't have
any interest in suffering fools on internet mailing lists.  If community
is important in guiding software trends, it's important to nip encroaching
macrocultures in the bud; otherwise we wind up with POSIX everywhere, and
an entire generation of computer users who can't even conceive of a world
without it.

People like Blake can present me with bullshit about 'living in a cave' all
day long -- but the surest way to prevent mistakes is to cause people to
defend proposed change within an inch of their lives.  That's the original
point of a thesis defense, and the principal is no less valid on a mail
list.  Most people seem to take such challenges personally;  this is just
because they're not used to being challenged.  It will pass.

khm

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[lucio]

> And cheap, energy efficient computers for poor kids, which is
> a good thing,

I have access to a few thousands "poor kids", age 0 to 18.  Could I
please have some of these "cheap, energy efficient computers" for
them?

Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Lucio.

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Steffen Daode Nurpmeso]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1095 bytes --]

lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote:
 |> And cheap, energy efficient computers for poor kids, which is
 |> a good thing,
 |
 |I have access to a few thousands "poor kids", age 0 to 18.  Could I
 |please have some of these "cheap, energy efficient computers" for
 |them?

I can't help you there -- not from me.

 |Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I can't say anything about Africa, though let me doubt wether all
african chiefs would agree with you.  Nor wether those which don't
possibly would be right or not.

Since it's Christmas today, one of the most interesting and likely
true things i've ever read from a Christian is quoted in Peter
Scholl-Latour's «Mord am großen Fluß. Ein Vierteljahrhundert
afrikanische Unabhängigkeit» («Murder at the big river. A quarter
of a century of African Independence»), somewhen in the 60s
a (black) african Bishop stated something like «In the year 2700
the white people will have wasted all resources.  Then the era of
the black people will begin».

Anyway: no real kind of starvation over here, on my side.

--steffen

[-- Attachment #2: Original message content --]
[-- Type: message/rfc822, Size: 4518 bytes --]

From: lucio@proxima.alt.za
To: 9fans@9fans.net
Subject: Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 14:24:52 +0200
Message-ID: <a338860353ab50dc706d6d8aa3f2a5a7@proxima.alt.za>

> And cheap, energy efficient computers for poor kids, which is
> a good thing,

I have access to a few thousands "poor kids", age 0 to 18.  Could I
please have some of these "cheap, energy efficient computers" for
them?

Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Lucio.

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[lucio]

> Anyway: no real kind of starvation over here, on my side.

That makes you an authority in some field, but none that can shed
light on the future of computing for poor children.

++L

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Federico G. Benavento]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 242 bytes --]


> This is why harmful.cat-v.org is so important, and it's why I don't have
> any interest in suffering fools on internet mailing lists. 

I can’t stop laughing.

PS: kudos to Ruben
—
Federico G. Benavento
benavento@gmail.com




[-- Attachment #2: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 859 bytes --]