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* [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-03-10 23:59 Alex Danilo
  2002-03-11  0:07 ` Alexander Viro
  2002-03-11  0:45 ` Andrew Simmons
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 189+ messages in thread
From: Alex Danilo @ 2002-03-10 23:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

>If you just prefer GUIs to composition of commands, just say so.

I don't prefer GUIs.  What does sam itself do - provide a GUI
where grep, find, ed, and sed would have worked just fine:-)

Rob states:

>make grandiose philosophical statements about it.  Well, I have tried
>samuel and I didn't like it, partly because it didn't seem to help all
>that much (because grep could do a lot of the work for you just fine);
>partly because added a set of special-purpose features rather than a
>general-purpose approach; partly because it cluttered up the menus to
>have that extra functionality, making it less useful as an editor; and
>partly because it just wasn't very well done.

The last point is the correct one.  It was badly done, but it was an
experiment.  I quote myself:

>The whole point of samuel was an experiment in application development
>environments.  Nothing more.

Rob:
>You won't get me to say I don't like tools and don't want to add to
>the the toolkit.  I will say, however, that I demand the tools be good
>and that they should increase the set of problems to be solved or
>significantly increase the ease with which they can be solved.

True - most of samuel was junk - the interpreter didn't work, the
advisor was ill-advised.  But the browser (one whole extra menu entry,
gee) added a wonderful code navigation tool.  'grep' can't parse and
so arguing that layout is a substitute for the language aware cscope
is _really_ misguided.  Heck, what are most of you coding in anyway?
Limbo and C probably.  Not much has changed since the 70's huh!

The point of my post is that as supposedly intelligent beings we should
apply that to make everyones job easier.  If you can get "90% of the
functionality with grep" and you're happy with that - then fine.

But, if you insist on building systems which require an IQ of more
than 100 to operate, then by definition you are excluding more
than 1/2 of the world's population from using the system.

>Samuel didn't make the grade.  If it had, I think it would still be
>around.

Well it is, you just have to know where.

Alex



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* [9fans] E attribute in libsec/port/x509.c
@ 2003-03-10 13:13 Claude BONFANTI
  2003-03-11 17:41 ` Eric Grosse
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 189+ messages in thread
From: Claude BONFANTI @ 2003-03-10 13:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Various attributes could be specified this way.

% diff .../new.x509.c x509.c
2222c2222
< 	int		data[7];
---
> 	int		data[4];
2226,2232c2226,2231
< 	{4, 2, 5, 4, 6, 0, 0, 0, "C="},
< 	{4, 2, 5, 4, 8, 0, 0, 0, "ST="},
< 	{4, 2, 5, 4, 7, 0, 0, 0, "L="},
< 	{4, 2, 5, 4, 10, 0, 0, 0, "O="},
< 	{4, 2, 5, 4, 11, 0, 0, 0, "OU="},
< 	{7, 1,2,840,113549,1,9,1, "E="},
< 	{4, 2, 5, 4, 3, 0, 0, 0, "CN="},
---
> 	{4, 2, 5, 4, 6,  "C="},
> 	{4, 2, 5, 4, 8,  "ST="},
> 	{4, 2, 5, 4, 7,  "L="},
> 	{4, 2, 5, 4, 10, "O="},
> 	{4, 2, 5, 4, 11, "OU="},
> 	{4, 2, 5, 4, 3,  "CN="},
%


% aux/X509gen -p your_key.secret 'C=FR O=''-'' OU=''-'' E=''guess@nowere.fr'' CN=''Your_NAME'' ' >your_x509certificate.der



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* [9fans] 9 in the news
@ 2002-09-21  2:01 matt
  2002-09-21 11:16 ` Lucio De Re
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 189+ messages in thread
From: matt @ 2002-09-21  2:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

 How Apache & Plan 9 will defeat Microsoft's Passport

http://www.linuxworld.com/site-stories/2002/0918.plan9.html

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/09/20/1532208&mode=nested&tid=156


---
Outgoing mail is certified as idiotic.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 21/08/2002



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] sam and ssh
@ 2002-03-27 20:12 Geoff Collyer
  2002-03-27 20:18 ` Lucio De Re
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 189+ messages in thread
From: Geoff Collyer @ 2002-03-27 20:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Sorry, I thought Lucio was talking about Unix sam.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-03-18 10:39 Joel Salomon
  2002-03-18 14:53 ` AMSRL-CI-CN
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 189+ messages in thread
From: Joel Salomon @ 2002-03-18 10:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Simple searching with regexps works in sam just fine.  However, I
would like to see regexp 'macros' or something similar, so I can
search for (c:ident) instead of /[A-Za-z_][A-Za-z_0-9]*/


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-03-13 14:31 bwc
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 189+ messages in thread
From: bwc @ 2002-03-13 14:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Laura,

It is true that just building a better technology won't, in itself, create
a demand.  It's not the current owner of market share.  True, they won't
help and will go out of their way to protect their space, but the bigger
problem is that just having the better technology, by itself, doesn't
do anyone any good.  The full cycle is
	1) better way,
	2) communication better way to the people who will benefit
	3) provide channel for people who will benefit to purchase
	4) be able to provide better way at an acceptable price
	5) help the people who will benefit learn how to use new way

I'm sure in my haste this morning I'm leaving something out.  (2) and (3)
are functions of marketing, (4) is manufactoring, (5) is marketing and
support.  A lot has to happen, and the ultimate choice is the
people who will potentially benefit.

There are always counter examples, such as monopolies.  But, having
taken on some real big guys and won, (they gave in and bought us), I can
say you can do all this--don't dispare.  It's just a whole lot of work.

  Brantley Coile

BTW, I turned off my prototype PIX firewall last week after over six
years of service.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-03-11 15:54 rob pike
  2002-03-11 17:59 ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 189+ messages in thread
From: rob pike @ 2002-03-11 15:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

To save us all a little time, here is the Universal Editor Post:

==

The editor I use is the best.  It's the one I use, which helps make it
the best.  I like it because I use it.  Because I use it, it's wired
right into my fingertips.  This also helps make it best.  Anyone who
thinks otherwise is a moron, and therefore not me.  Now can we please
stop talking about editors?

==

-rob



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-03-11 15:22 Russ Cox
  2002-03-11 17:49 ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 189+ messages in thread
From: Russ Cox @ 2002-03-11 15:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> Emacs is not an editor, it's a comprehensive user interface
> environment.  

And it's also an editor.

[snip religious arguments for emacs the comprehensive,
emacs the all-encompassing, emacs the chameleon.]

> So I find editor wars singularly boring.

Of course they're boring: they perfectly fit Needham's
definition of a religious war -- one in which there is no
content.

Yet you try to turn this thread into an editor war.

> Actually, the most important reason I don't use vi is that I use the
> Dvorak keyboard, and the use of positional keys in vi (hjkl) is a pain
> when you are using a different key layout.

Speaking of which, maybe you can clear up some other things.
What's the One True Byte Order?  Are PCs really better
than Macintoshes?  Is Linux really better than Windows?
Is worse really better?

More religious wars!

Russ



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-03-11  8:50 Bengt Kleberg
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 189+ messages in thread
From: Bengt Kleberg @ 2002-03-11  8:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans


> Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
> From: presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com
> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu

> to find functions.  The most important part of the declaration
> for me is the function name.  The rest is a description of what
> that name represents which I can find pretty easily once I find the
> function in my visual field.

this sounds logical, and will hopefully help to put limbo in front of c
when it comes to language usage.


bengt



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-03-11  4:50 Geoff Collyer
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 189+ messages in thread
From: Geoff Collyer @ 2002-03-11  4:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Sorry, that's an American-ism; Fahrenheit.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-03-11  1:08 Russ Cox
  2002-03-11 10:10 ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
  2002-03-11 17:16 ` ozan s. yigit
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 189+ messages in thread
From: Russ Cox @ 2002-03-11  1:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

I'm impressed.  We're in the middle of a religious war
over editors and neither emacs nor vi is involved.

As was pointed out earlier, it's trivial to use cscope-like
tools quite naturally with acme.  The same was not true
of sam when samuel got written; now that sam has
plumbing it might fit better, but it still pales in
comparison to acme.  For many acme users, the
cscope-like tool of choice is grep, especially
since cscope doesn't compile on Plan 9 (it's too tied
to curses [sic]).

If you really care, give acme+grep or acme+cscope
a try before you knock it -- acme's great strength
is how well it integrates external commands.

AFAICT, rob is the only person who has tried both
samuel and acme+grep and expressed an opinion.
Thus far, consensus among the informed seems to
be unanimous: acme+grep beats samuel.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-03-11  0:15 Geoff Collyer
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 189+ messages in thread
From: Geoff Collyer @ 2002-03-11  0:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

sam provides more than a GUI; the other face of its user interface is
a command language in which composition from simpler commands provides
considerable power.

I wasn't aware that Limbo existed in the '70s; can you cite a
reference?  One could argue that Java is merely Limbo done badly and
with lots of complex yet unhelpful class libraries piled on.  And who
cares if we're using languages and tools from the '70s?  The good ones
survive.  Or are we just not hep enough?  Following fashion has never
interested me.

> But, if you insist on building systems which require an IQ of more
> than 100 to operate, then by definition you are excluding more than
> 1/2 of the world's population from using the system.

This is a stunning statement.  If we prefer systems that haven't been
dumbed-down, we're horrible elitist scum.  Given the plentiful supply
of stupidity on this planet, I'll take the systems that require an IQ
above room temperature to understand and use.  There are lots of other
existing systems for the bottom half of the IQ curve to use.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-03-11  0:04 Geoff Collyer
  2002-03-11 10:09 ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 189+ messages in thread
From: Geoff Collyer @ 2002-03-11  0:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Assigned gotos, COBOL "alter" verbs, writing large programs in
assembler, self-modifying code, and many other things in this young
field are bad ideas, but they aren't archaic, even if they are
wretched mistakes.  Old != bad, and New != good; quality and age are
largely unrelated, though with luck we learn things with experience.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-03-10 22:51 forsyth
  2002-03-11  0:21 ` Andrew Simmons
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 189+ messages in thread
From: forsyth @ 2002-03-10 22:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

>>(i know, i know, i could use something that
>>puts the function names in chartreuse.)

which isn't to say i think that putting everything in Courier
for ever and ever is right too.    i sometimes think that the
silliness that gets established (syntax colouring) tends to divert
people from more interesting applications of available technology.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-03-10 22:20 forsyth
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 189+ messages in thread
From: forsyth @ 2002-03-10 22:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 502 bytes --]

actually, quite apart from the understandable desire to
have improvements in the programming environment,
i have to say that given C's syntax, i still find
	static int
	burble(stuff)
	{
easier to spot at a glance than
	static int burble(stuff)
	{
even when the aim is not to grep for things, but perhaps
that's just me.  i thought lcc was
a good program, but i found it harder to read for that reason.
(i know, i know, i could use something that
puts the function names in chartreuse.)


[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1998 bytes --]

To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] samuel
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 10:13:49 +1300
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020311101349.00998010@pop3.clear.net.nz>

>Samuel didn't make the grade.  If it had, I think it would still be
>around.
>
Fair enough. I'd just like some way to find function definitions without
changing the way I lay them out. grep ^nurdge *.c does have the appeal of
simplicity, but I don't like adjusting my style to suit the machine.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-03-10 21:42 presotto
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 189+ messages in thread
From: presotto @ 2002-03-10 21:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1028 bytes --]

Actually, I started using the style before I started using grep
to find functions.  The most important part of the declaration
for me is the function name.  The rest is a description of what
that name represents which I can find pretty easily once I find the
function in my visual field.  Anything that hides it from me,
I find distracting.  The big difference for me when I started coding on
plan 9 was putting the formal parameters on the same line as the
function name.  I used to separate them onto subesequent lines,
one per line with comments.  However, I bent to local practice
on that.

However, if you don't like it, I see no reason why you should do
it.  I automaticly reformat other people's code to meet my
particular nuances before I try to understand it, especially
if it's rather complex.

I'm not quite sure why anyone is railing against samuel; if
samuel helps some people manage code a bit better, use it.
I prefer the plumber to do similar things since it's not
oriented to a single editor.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2203 bytes --]

From: Andrew Simmons <andrew@mbmnz.co.nz>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] samuel
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 09:17:07 +1300
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020311091707.00998010@pop3.clear.net.nz>

>
>Dinosaurs didn't have grep.
>
They do now.

Sorry, that was really cheap, but I do think Alex has a point. It ties in
with a query I made re coding layout. If people lay out function
definitions with the return type on a separate line because they find it
makes them easier to read, then fine. If, however, they find that style
ugly and distracting (and maybe I'm the only one who does) but do it
anyway, because it allows then to find the function definition using grep,
then maybe the tail has started to wag the dog a little, and it's time to
consider extending the toolkit?


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-03-10 20:32 rob pike
  2002-03-10 21:13 ` Andrew Simmons
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 189+ messages in thread
From: rob pike @ 2002-03-10 20:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> maybe the tail has started to wag the dog a little, and it's time to
> consider extending the toolkit?

Yesterday it was claimed that those who hadn't tried samuel shouldn't
make grandiose philosophical statements about it.  Well, I have tried
samuel and I didn't like it, partly because it didn't seem to help all
that much (because grep could do a lot of the work for you just fine);
partly because added a set of special-purpose features rather than a
general-purpose approach; partly because it cluttered up the menus to
have that extra functionality, making it less useful as an editor; and
partly because it just wasn't very well done.

You won't get me to say I don't like tools and don't want to add to
the the toolkit.  I will say, however, that I demand the tools be good
and that they should increase the set of problems to be solved or
significantly increase the ease with which they can be solved.

Samuel didn't make the grade.  If it had, I think it would still be
around.

-rob



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-03-10  3:38 rob pike
  2002-03-10 20:17 ` Andrew Simmons
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 189+ messages in thread
From: rob pike @ 2002-03-10  3:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> If you haven't used it, then I suggest you try it before making
> grandiose philosophical remarks about the purity of little tools
> combined with archaic regular expression munging.  You sound like
> dinosaurs.

Dinosaurs didn't have grep.

-rob



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-03-10  3:27 geoff
  2002-03-10 19:42 ` Andrew Simmons
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 189+ messages in thread
From: geoff @ 2002-03-10  3:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> If you haven't used it, then I suggest you try it before making
> grandiose philosophical remarks about the purity of little tools
> combined with archaic regular expression munging.  You sound like
> dinosaurs.

``In computer science, we stand on each other's feet.'''  - Brian Reid

The modern field of computing (using stored-program electronic digital
computers) is just over 50 years old.  How anything in the field can
be considered archaic is beyond me.  If we're dinosaurs for using
something as relatively recent as regular expression searches, what
hope is there for building on the work of others?

If you just prefer GUIs to composition of commands, just say so.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-03-10  2:46 Alex Danilo
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 189+ messages in thread
From: Alex Danilo @ 2002-03-10  2:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Most of the discussion here shows no-one ever used samuel.

Most of you are confusing samuel with 'samx'.

'samx' was a bunch of hacks to give auto-indent and other awful
features to sam.

'samuel' does not change the behaviour of 'sam' at all - it just adds
more menu items which give you access to cscope.  When the samuel
features aren't in use, you just get an extra menu entry called 'browser'.
(There was an interface to a C interpreter too, but I could never get
any sense out of it).

The whole point of samuel was an experiment in application development
environments.  Nothing more.

But if you do use it, you get the nice facility that you can do stuff
like 'search for calls to <function>'.  This builds a cascading menu
that can be looked at, and you can see which file/function/line the
function call is in.  Yes, this can all be done with grep, etc, but
that approach is clumsy by comparison, unless you are stubbornly
bent on intellectual masturbation.  The single fastest way to navigate
a huge unknown codebase is samuel.

If you haven't used it, then I suggest you try it before making
grandiose philosophical remarks about the purity of little tools
combined with archaic regular expression munging.  You sound like
dinosaurs.

Anyway, the one glitch with samuel was that it was done on the old
ASCII sam, and was never integrated with the utf version in Plan
9 or the one Rob released for UNIX, so you're stuffed anyway.

Alex




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-02-27 23:05 seanq
  2002-02-27 23:15 ` William Josephson
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 189+ messages in thread
From: seanq @ 2002-02-27 23:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

     EMACS(1)                                                 EMACS(1)

     NAME
          emacs - editor macros

     SYNOPSIS
          emacs [ options ]

     DESCRIPTION
          This page intentionally left blank.

     SOURCE
          MIT

     SEE ALSO
          sam(1), vi(1)

     BUGS
          Yes.

     Page 1                       Plan 9             (printed 2/27/02)


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-02-27 15:24 forsyth
  2002-02-27 15:23 ` Boyd Roberts
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 189+ messages in thread
From: forsyth @ 2002-02-27 15:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

>This was the 10th Ed version of sam that understood C/C++ (written

samuel UNDERSTOOD C++?  respect!


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-02-27 14:30 Fco.J.Ballesteros
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 189+ messages in thread
From: Fco.J.Ballesteros @ 2002-02-27 14:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

It's funny how acme can also be used to do that kind of stuff,
without knowing a bit about C. 
With a few scripts, you generate prototypes from functions,
locate struct definitions and the like. 


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-02-27 14:26 rob pike
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 189+ messages in thread
From: rob pike @ 2002-02-27 14:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> In any case, what did exactly samuel with its knowledge of
> the C syntax to help editing? Something like the C mode used
> in Emacs? 

It kept a database on the side to make it easy to look up declarations
and that sort of thing.  The database needed to be updated whenever
you changed the program.

-rob



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-02-27 14:23 Fco.J.Ballesteros
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 189+ messages in thread
From: Fco.J.Ballesteros @ 2002-02-27 14:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

In any case, what did exactly samuel with its knowledge of
the C syntax to help editing? Something like the C mode used
in Emacs? 


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-02-27 14:21 rob pike
  2002-02-28 13:19 ` Jim Kelleman
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 189+ messages in thread
From: rob pike @ 2002-02-27 14:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> Yes please, release it. I'd love to try samuel. 

I have no idea where the code is.  It was done by a Mr. Puttress,
who was working for Ted Kowalski at the time.  I don't know where
those people are any more, but they might be at AT&T.

I looked around the Lucent and AT&T sites with no luck.  The code
has never been part of our tree, as far as I know.

-rob



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-02-27 14:16 Fco.J.Ballesteros
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 189+ messages in thread
From: Fco.J.Ballesteros @ 2002-02-27 14:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

Yes please, release it. I'd love to try samuel. 



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* [9fans] samuel
@ 2002-02-27 13:17 Boyd Roberts
  2002-02-27 23:04 ` skipt
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 189+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2002-02-27 13:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

This was the 10th Ed version of sam that understood C/C++ (written
by Tom Cargill/Killian?).  Can we get the source released?

I'd like to teach it about python, much as I hate syntax directed
editors, but I want to be able to get to classes without typing.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Rant (was Re: Plan9 and Ada95?)
@ 2001-11-07 21:34 anothy
  2001-11-08  5:30 ` Lucio De Re
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 189+ messages in thread
From: anothy @ 2001-11-07 21:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

// ...continuous criticism... ...of everything beyond the boundaries
// of Plan 9/Inferno, no matter how justified, isn't healthy.

i'd agree with the implication but disagree with the statement.

i think constant criticism is a very good thing, provided it's done in a
productive manner, and the criticism is somewhat more concrete than
"not invented here." it is this ongoing criticism that will help all these
systems change, correct their flaws or failures of vision, and improve.

which brings me to my point of agreement. you say "everything beyond
the boundaries of Plan 9/Inferno" and i think that's a good observation.
Plan 9 and Inferno are by no means perfect. as someone noted some
time ago, the alt.sysadmin.recovery FAQ gets it right: no systems don't
suck, plan 9 simply sucks less than others. i think it's important that
_everybody_ needs to be occasionally reminded that they suck in some
fashion or other. but with that needs to come info on _how_ one sucks,
and how to suck less.

take the current compiler discussion. i would say the contention here is
not that GCC is worthless and ?c/?l are perfect, but rather that one can
be more productive improving ?c/?l than GCC. you correctly note that
the Plan 9 tools don't deal with cross-OS compiling (except in very
limited cases), whereas GCC does (to some degree, anyway). i don't
believe anyone is disputing this, nor claiming it doesn't matter. but i bet
most people here would say it'd require less overall man-hours to get
8c/8l to build Linux binaries than to get GCC to build Plan 9 ones, and
that the results would enable people on whatever platform to develop
things better and more quickly.

// Perl would open another [door], Python a third, Apache a fourth, etc.

Perl and Python i can see, for sure. they're languages, with apps
written in them, that people want to be able to use. and for good reason.
Perl and Python each have benefits one cannot get with C, rc, or Limbo.
i'd love to see them supported better on Plan 9.

Apache's a harder sell. do people want "Apache" or a web server with a
certain feature set? if the later, one has a decision to make: port (and
maybe improve) Apache, improve Plan 9's httpd, or build something
new. there's a legitamate cost/gain analysis here; the fact that we didn't
build Apache shouldn't enter into it.

i agree everyone could benefit by more active exchange between Plan 9
and other systems. but i think it's a big leap to go from there to saying
we should spend more time improving GCC or porting Apache.
ア



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: Plan 9 annoyances (was: Re: [9fans] mv vs cp)
@ 2001-10-09 13:18 bwc
  2001-10-10  8:57 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 189+ messages in thread
From: bwc @ 2001-10-09 13:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

>>Inferno != Plan 9.
>>There is no web browser in Plan 9---and that's got to be a big obstacle.

I have an iMAC for that.  One OS doesn't have to do everything.

Brantley Coile


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] mv vs cp
@ 2001-10-07 16:23 jmk
  2001-10-08  4:28 ` Lucio De Re
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 189+ messages in thread
From: jmk @ 2001-10-07 16:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

As Dave points out, there are a lot of balls in the air during
an atomic 'rename'. 4.2BSD introduced the 'rename' system call,
and as an alpha/beta tester for 4.1[abc] and 4.2BSD I can testify
to how long it took to get it right and how much ugly code was
involved.

--jim


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Sam question
@ 2001-08-18  7:38 nigel
  2001-08-18  8:31 ` Steve Kilbane
                   ` (3 more replies)
  0 siblings, 4 replies; 189+ messages in thread
From: nigel @ 2001-08-18  7:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

OK, so 8 space tabs, ridiculously long variable names, unnecessary
nesting, hungarian notation, and insuffcient use of subfunctions
blows the 80 column limit too quickly.

So use more columns! When did you last use a VT100?

As for clarity, a consistent style is all that is required. Within bounds, it
doesn't matter so much what the style is. The assistance it gives in
reading other people's code is immense.

Programmers should be flexible enough to communicate in the local
dialect whether it be OTB, or something widly different.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <lucio@proxima.alt.za>]
* Re: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
@ 2000-11-13 20:19 anothy
  2000-11-14  9:58 ` Wladimir Mutel
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 189+ messages in thread
From: anothy @ 2000-11-13 20:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

//Local caching would be great, I think.

okay, let me say off the bat i have no idea how
AFS handles caching, so this comparison may be
totally inapropriate. but for fs caching in
Plan 9 (without 9p↔AFS), take a look at cfs(4)
and the -C option to mount in bind(1).

if your goal is talking to AIX or other Unix
boxes, take a look at u9fs(4).
-α.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] /n/smtp
@ 2000-11-01 20:47 Russ Cox
  2000-11-01 21:48 ` Boyd Roberts
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 189+ messages in thread
From: Russ Cox @ 2000-11-01 20:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

	russ told me that it would serve no purpose, but i
	'counter attacked' :-) importing it off the firewall.
	a free proxy; code running on the the firewall with
	9P/styx gluing it to wherever it's needed.

even after all this discussion,
i still don't think it serves any purpose.
the data only flows in one direction, and
only in one format.  file servers are good
for handling interactive resources or 
resources with complex presentations.
mail delivery is neither.

people have pointed out that it's like 
sendmail -t.  so have upas/marshal -t,
which i agree would be useful.

want to get the service from a firewall?
instead of marshal -t, do rx firewall marshal -t.

to me, it feels a lot more like a good
pipeline piece than a full-blown filesystem.

russ


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] file server problems
@ 2000-07-12  9:04 ianb
  2000-07-13  1:33 ` Eric Dorman
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 189+ messages in thread
From: ianb @ 2000-07-12  9:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans


>i've not had any trouble with my IDE fileserver,

I thought that fileservers had to be SCSI?

Ian



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 189+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2003-03-14  5:06 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 189+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2002-03-10 23:59 [9fans] samuel Alex Danilo
2002-03-11  0:07 ` Alexander Viro
2002-03-11  7:44   ` Steve Kilbane
2002-03-11  0:45 ` Andrew Simmons
2002-03-11 10:10   ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2003-03-10 13:13 [9fans] E attribute in libsec/port/x509.c Claude BONFANTI
2003-03-11 17:41 ` Eric Grosse
2003-03-12  9:33   ` [9fans] hardware support for the fs kernel Conor Williams
2003-03-12  9:52     ` Geoff Collyer
2003-03-12 10:01     ` Lucio De Re
2003-03-12 10:12       ` Geoff Collyer
2003-03-12 10:28         ` Lucio De Re
2003-03-12 17:15           ` Russ Cox
2003-03-13  7:59             ` Lucio De Re
2003-03-13 15:45               ` Russ Cox
2003-03-14  5:06                 ` Lucio De Re
2003-03-12 10:52         ` James A. Robinson
2003-03-12 11:11           ` Lucio De Re
2003-03-12 22:59             ` Geoff Collyer
2003-03-12 23:20               ` Jack Johnson
2002-09-21  2:01 [9fans] 9 in the news matt
2002-09-21 11:16 ` Lucio De Re
2002-09-21 15:21   ` Arnaud SAHUGUET
2002-09-21 15:57   ` Jack Johnson
2002-09-21 16:01   ` Ronald G Minnich
2002-09-21 21:55   ` Steve Kilbane
2002-10-01 12:45 ` matt
2002-10-03  1:47 ` [9fans] did a replica/pull, now "mk 'CONF='pc" fails? Eric Dorman
2002-03-27 20:12 [9fans] sam and ssh Geoff Collyer
2002-03-27 20:18 ` Lucio De Re
2002-03-27 20:31   ` Scott Schwartz
2002-03-18 10:39 [9fans] samuel Joel Salomon
2002-03-18 14:53 ` AMSRL-CI-CN
2002-04-08 12:53   ` Joel Salomon
2002-03-13 14:31 bwc
2002-03-11 15:54 rob pike
2002-03-11 17:59 ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2002-03-11 15:22 Russ Cox
2002-03-11 17:49 ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2002-03-11  8:50 Bengt Kleberg
2002-03-11  4:50 Geoff Collyer
2002-03-11  1:08 Russ Cox
2002-03-11 10:10 ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2002-03-11 17:16 ` ozan s. yigit
2002-03-11  0:15 Geoff Collyer
2002-03-11  0:04 Geoff Collyer
2002-03-11 10:09 ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2002-03-13 14:13   ` Laura Creighton
2002-03-13 14:23     ` Lucio De Re
2002-03-13 18:08       ` Laura Creighton
2002-03-14  5:53         ` Lucio De Re
2002-03-14  9:56     ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2002-03-10 22:51 forsyth
2002-03-11  0:21 ` Andrew Simmons
2002-03-10 22:20 forsyth
2002-03-10 21:42 presotto
2002-03-10 20:32 rob pike
2002-03-10 21:13 ` Andrew Simmons
2002-03-10 21:25   ` William Josephson
2002-03-11 10:09   ` Ralph Corderoy
2002-03-11 18:06   ` ozan s. yigit
2002-03-10  3:38 rob pike
2002-03-10 20:17 ` Andrew Simmons
2002-03-10 22:15   ` Steve Kilbane
2002-03-10  3:27 geoff
2002-03-10 19:42 ` Andrew Simmons
2002-03-10  2:46 Alex Danilo
2002-02-27 23:05 seanq
2002-02-27 23:15 ` William Josephson
2002-02-28  4:49 ` Lucio De Re
2002-02-28 12:53   ` Boyd Roberts
2002-03-11 10:04   ` Escape Clause
2002-03-19 13:25     ` Harri J Haataja
2002-03-20 14:00       ` Boyd Roberts
2002-03-21 11:02         ` Ralph Corderoy
2002-02-28 12:51 ` Boyd Roberts
2002-02-27 15:24 forsyth
2002-02-27 15:23 ` Boyd Roberts
2002-02-27 14:30 Fco.J.Ballesteros
2002-02-27 14:26 rob pike
2002-02-27 14:23 Fco.J.Ballesteros
2002-02-27 14:21 rob pike
2002-02-28 13:19 ` Jim Kelleman
2002-02-27 14:16 Fco.J.Ballesteros
2002-02-27 13:17 Boyd Roberts
2002-02-27 23:04 ` skipt
2001-11-07 21:34 [9fans] Rant (was Re: Plan9 and Ada95?) anothy
2001-11-08  5:30 ` Lucio De Re
2001-11-08  5:43   ` George Michaelson
2001-11-08  7:07     ` Jim Choate
2001-11-08  7:40     ` Lucio De Re
2001-11-08 10:40       ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-11-08 20:15       ` Quinn Dunkan
2001-11-08  5:59   ` Andrey A Mirtchovski
2001-11-08  7:16 ` Steve Kilbane
2001-11-29  4:44 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-10-09 13:18 Plan 9 annoyances (was: Re: [9fans] mv vs cp) bwc
2001-10-10  8:57 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-10-10 10:02   ` Browsers (was: Re: Plan 9 annoyances (was: Re: [9fans] mv vs cp)) Lucio De Re
2001-10-10 18:38     ` Steve Kilbane
2001-10-11  8:31       ` John Murdie
2001-10-11 17:26         ` Steve Kilbane
2001-10-12  6:31         ` [9fans] Re: Browsers Boyd Roberts
2001-10-07 16:23 [9fans] mv vs cp jmk
2001-10-08  4:28 ` Lucio De Re
2001-10-08  4:49   ` Alexander Viro
2001-10-08  6:10     ` George Michaelson
2001-10-08  6:34       ` Alexander Viro
2001-10-08  6:49         ` George Michaelson
2001-10-08  7:00           ` Lucio De Re
2001-10-08  7:13             ` George Michaelson
2001-10-08  7:44               ` Alexander Viro
2001-10-08  7:28             ` Alexander Viro
2001-10-08  6:54       ` Lucio De Re
2001-10-08  7:10         ` George Michaelson
2001-10-08  8:28           ` Lucio De Re
2001-10-08  9:51     ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-10-08 10:30       ` Alexander Viro
2001-10-09  9:03         ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-10-09  9:33           ` Alexander Viro
2001-10-09 15:58             ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-10-09 16:43               ` davel
2001-10-10  8:49                 ` Ralph Corderoy
2001-10-10  8:49                 ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-10-10  9:48                   ` davel
2001-10-11  9:10                     ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-10-11 10:54                       ` davel
2001-10-12  9:19                         ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-10-09 16:46               ` Alexander Viro
2001-10-10  8:50                 ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-10-10 10:29                   ` Alexander Viro
2001-10-10  1:05               ` erik quanstrom
2001-10-10  2:15                 ` david presotto
2001-10-10  4:54                   ` Skip Tavakkolian
2001-10-10  8:30                 ` davel
2001-10-08 10:34       ` Boyd Roberts
2001-10-08  9:50   ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-10-08 11:13     ` Lucio De Re
2001-10-08  9:42 ` Thomas Bushnell, BSG
2001-10-08 17:43 ` [9fans] rewriting paths [was: mv vs cp] Richard Uhtenwoldt
2001-08-18  7:38 [9fans] Sam question nigel
2001-08-18  8:31 ` Steve Kilbane
2001-08-20  8:57   ` Luis Fernandes
2001-08-20 11:10     ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-18 11:06 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-19  6:57 ` Lucio De Re
2001-08-19 10:54   ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-19 11:13     ` Lucio De Re
2001-08-19 12:02       ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-19 12:23         ` Lucio De Re
2001-08-19 16:17           ` Steve Kilbane
2001-08-19 20:57 ` Dan Cross
     [not found] <lucio@proxima.alt.za>
2001-04-23  5:53 ` [9fans] PGP Lucio De Re
2001-04-23  6:01   ` Scott Schwartz
2001-04-23 16:13     ` Dan Cross
2002-03-27 18:14 ` [9fans] sam and ssh Lucio De Re
2002-03-27 19:08   ` Scott Schwartz
2002-03-28  1:28   ` Micah Stetson
2002-03-27 20:15     ` Lucio De Re
2002-03-27 20:22       ` Lucio De Re
2002-03-27 20:36         ` Lucio De Re
2002-03-27 20:41           ` Lucio De Re
2002-04-08 12:47           ` peter huang
2000-11-13 20:19 [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ? anothy
2000-11-14  9:58 ` Wladimir Mutel
     [not found]   ` <mwg@alkar.net>
2000-11-14 22:33     ` Tom Duff
2000-11-14 22:41       ` Boyd Roberts
2000-11-14 22:41       ` Alexander Viro
2000-11-14 22:51         ` Boyd Roberts
     [not found]           ` <boyd@planete.net>
2000-11-14 23:02             ` Tom Duff
2000-11-20 10:55           ` Chris Locke
2000-11-20 10:56           ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2000-11-20 13:24             ` Boyd Roberts
     [not found]         ` <viro@math.psu.edu>
2000-11-14 23:00           ` Tom Duff
2000-11-14 23:15             ` Alexander Viro
2000-11-14 23:54           ` Tom Duff
2000-11-15  0:31             ` Alexander Viro
2000-11-15  0:38               ` Boyd Roberts
2000-11-01 20:47 [9fans] /n/smtp Russ Cox
2000-11-01 21:48 ` Boyd Roberts
2000-11-01 22:02   ` Boyd Roberts
2000-11-01 22:10     ` Scott Schwartz
2000-11-01 22:23       ` Boyd Roberts
2000-07-12  9:04 [9fans] file server problems ianb
2000-07-13  1:33 ` Eric Dorman
2000-07-13  2:28   ` Eric Dorman
2000-07-13  4:15     ` Lucio De Re
2000-07-13  4:33       ` Scott Schwartz
2000-07-13 12:19         ` Lucio De Re

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