Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[ori]

> This is a good idea. Let me know how do you want to proceed.

I will be busy working on other systems until December,
but when I get back, I'll just make the chages to the
wiki. If it's not editable,  I'll email a patch to the
9fans list.

> 9p.io is a mirror of the former Bell Labs website.
> 
> We're still accepting patches and people can
> update their contrib directory. However, the
> rest is mostly read-only.

It may be worth making it clear *on* 9p.io, then,
that the site is a historical monument, and not a
place to go for a living system. A link to 9legacy
on the front page, flagging it as the place to go
if someone wants to use "Plan 9 from Bell Labs",
would probably be in order.

Personally, I'd prefer to treat the site, and the
system itself, as a living thing, and not as a
historical preservation project. Treating the main
page as "The world stopped when bell labs died"
doesn't indicate a healthy ecosystem to me.

But that's not my call to make, and since I'm not
the one doing the work, I'm not going to argue
about that too much.

> > Is there anywhere that people would be comfortable
> > blessing as a source for building new ISO images,
> > to put behind the download link, with the accepted
> > patches integrated?
> 
> That's mostly what 9legacy is.

It's a collection of patches, but it's unclear from the
site that it's the successor to 9p.io. It would be good
to clarify that this is where the labs distribution of
Plan 9 lives.

You can see that confusion in greemngreek's questions.

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Fazlul Shahriar]

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On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 12:32 PM <ori@eigenstate.org> wrote:

> > This is a good idea. Let me know how do you want to proceed.
>
> I will be busy working on other systems until December,
> but when I get back, I'll just make the chages to the
> wiki. If it's not editable,  I'll email a patch to the
> 9fans list.


The wiki seems to be editable. Run within acme:

    Local srv net!9p.io!wiki wiki /mnt/wiki
    Wiki /mnt/wiki/

I've updated few pages, include the mailing list page (
https://9p.io/wiki/plan9/mailing_lists/index.html) to link to 9fans
Topicbox.
All the man page links are broken, and this will require a change in
wikifs(4). Links to bell-labs.com in the html files in /sys/lib/wiki also
need to be updated.

fhs

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Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[David du Colombier]

> All the man page links are broken, and this will require a change in 
> wikifs(4). Links to bell-labs.com in the html files in /sys/lib/wiki 
> also need to be updated.

Thanks. I've fixed the remaining issues.

-- 
David du Colombier

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Steven Stallion]

On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 2:49 AM David du Colombier <0intro@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks. I've fixed the remaining issues.

For the most part, I'm glad for the thread. At the very least it
convinced me to pull my fileserver out of cold storage last night and
bring a couple of CPU servers back online. I'm hoping over the holiday
I'll have some time to move over to 9p.io and submit patches for any
outstanding diffs. I know I have a few that have been collecting dust,
namely IPMI support for KCS-style BMCs and a basic collectd agent that
should probably be rewritten in Go. I also have a partial kernel port
to the Samsung Exynos I started 5-6 years ago.

Out of curiosity, what's the process for reclaiming your contrib
directory on 9p.io? I'm happy to spend some time working on polishing
the wiki as well.

Cheers,
Steve

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[David du Colombier]

> Out of curiosity, what's the process for reclaiming your contrib
> directory on 9p.io? I'm happy to spend some time working on polishing
> the wiki as well.

Please send me and email.

-- 
David du Colombier

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Richard Miller]

> Might be worth posting what wasn't working, and what
> you changed to make it work

An update to Broadcom's (now Cypress's) firmware for the
wifi chip on some pi models caused it to start inserting
an extra optional header in event packets from the chip
to the cpu.  My testing when I updated this firmware on
the 9pi image hadn't been sufficient, so I didn't realise
that it broke wifi on the pi3B.

I've now updated the ether4330.c driver on 9p.io to deal
with this extra header.  Later today I'll update the 9pi
image, to add this and to incorporate pi4 support.

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[kokamoto]

> Might be worth posting what wasn't working, and what
> you changed to make it work, so that others can figure
> it out if they run into the same issue. :)

This is Richard's work not mine, so he could write it
if neccessary, I think.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[ori]

> Ok, I got success by Richard's very kind help.
> Now, I can use wifi on rpi3B (ARM Cortex-A53) device
> using NEC WARPSTAR Aterm WR8170N.

Might be worth posting what wasn't working, and what
you changed to make it work, so that others can figure
it out if they run into the same issue. :)

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[kokamoto]

> Ok, I got success by Richard's very kind help.
> Now, I can use wifi on rpi3B (ARM Cortex-A53) device
> using NEC WARPSTAR Aterm WR8170N.

I forgot.
It is working on vanilla plan9 by Richard not on 9front
device.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[kokamoto]

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Ok, I got success by Richard's very kind help.
Now, I can use wifi on rpi3B (ARM Cortex-A53) device
using NEC WARPSTAR Aterm WR8170N.

Kenji

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From: kokamoto@hera.eonet.ne.jp
To: 9fans@9fans.net
Subject: Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 18:46:37 +0900
Message-ID: <08995824A82CC0C4160EE97DBC62B071@hera.eonet.ne.jp>

> Current raspberry pi kernel source is on 9p.io in /sources/contrib/miller/9/bcm

Hi, Richard.

I'm now working to make your ether4330.c to work on 9front system, which is
now my base sysytem.

Your current source can work with wpa2/psk?
I tried your 2018 version, but failed.

Kenji


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Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[kokamoto]

> ether0=type=4330 essid=<My router's essid> wificrypt=wpa2 fs=<fs's ip address> auth=<auth server's ip address>

Sorry, s/ether0/ether1/

I confused the cmdline.txt for 9front test.
I tested your codes by ether1=type=4330 on your bcm system..

Kenji

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[kokamoto]

> What's in your cmdline.txt?

---
ether0=type=4330 essid=<My router's essid> wificrypt=wpa2 fs=<fs's ip address> auth=<auth server's ip address>
---

Kenji

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Richard Miller]

> I'm using NEC WARPSTAR WR8170N router, and got the error like:
> I compiled 9pi3wifi by using your  pi3wifi definition file.

I'll look at this tomorrow when I'm back home.

What's in your cmdline.txt?

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[kokamoto]

Thank you very much Richard san.

> Yes, it does with my two routers (buffalo n300 and fritz!box).

I'm using NEC WARPSTAR WR8170N router, and got the error like:
I compiled 9pi3wifi by using your  pi3wifi definition file.

Plan9 from Bell Labs
board rev: 0xa02082 firmware rev: 1521643642
cpu0: 1200MHz ARM Cortex-A53 r0p4
...
#l1: 4330: 10Mbps port 0x0 itq -1: 000000000000
998M memory: 202M kernel data, 795M user, 3780M swap
...
ether4330: chip 43430 rev 1 type 1
ether4330: firmware ready
ether4330: addr <my rpi3's MAC address>
...
user[none]: sys
ether4330: [?] error status 23 flags 0x1 reason 0
event:
10 18 00 01 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 17 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 01 00 00 00 03 00 00 00 00 00 3a 9d 2b
b6 51 77 6c 30 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00
event:
10 18 00 01 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 17 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 01 00 00 00 03 00 00 00 00 34 3d c4 ee
1e  68 77 6c 30 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00

Kenji

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Richard Miller]

> Hi, Richard.

Konnichi wa Okamoto san,

> Your current source can work with wpa2/psk?

Yes, it does with my two routers (buffalo n300 and fritz!box).
I haven't tested it with anything else.  Please let me know if
it works for you now.

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[kokamoto]

> Current raspberry pi kernel source is on 9p.io in /sources/contrib/miller/9/bcm

Hi, Richard.

I'm now working to make your ether4330.c to work on 9front system, which is
now my base sysytem.

Your current source can work with wpa2/psk?
I tried your 2018 version, but failed.

Kenji

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Richard Miller]

>> cpu% srv -n 9p.io sources /n/sources
> 
> Usually, that's not what people mean when they
> say 'site'.

Oh, well https://9p.io/sources/patch is another way in, as
I expect you know.  This is a plan 9 mailing list so it seemed
more natural for me to describe things in plan 9 terms, sorry.

I can't speak in general for "people", but this grizzled old
plan 9 user thinks of a plan 9 site as something to connect to
with 9p.

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Richard Miller]

Lucio -

> BTW, I miss SSH a lot more often than I miss a browser when using
> legacy Plan 9.

Do you mean using Plan 9 as a ssh server, or client?

I haven't tried server mode lately, but I use it often as
a client with current linux and mac hosts with no trouble.

Have you applied the 2018 patches from the 9p.io "museum"?
If you have done that and ssh client doesn't work for you,
you might simply need to adjust the sshd configuration on
your host (if it's under your control) to allow an encryption
algorithm that Plan 9 supports.

Get in touch off list after Thursday when I get home from
Vienna -- since we're showing off our connections to cities
of High European Culture :) -- and I'll see if we can sort
it out.

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Lucio De Re]

BTW, I miss SSH a lot more often than I miss a browser when using
legacy Plan 9. It keeps being what I would port from 9front
immediately if I simply had the skills, the time and the persistence.

There are one or two more things that may only pop up once caffeine
has had its impact on my rather slow brain. I am very extremely
grateful for 9legacy, even though I don't really understand what is
and what is not possible using it, so I stick to my own modified
version of Plan 9 which occasionally leaps from one antiquated host to
anotherless antiquated one and were I at total leisure, my dream would
be of threading into that, in a repeatable experiment, all the useful
imported beads (from 9legacy, 9front and 9atom, more or less in that
priority sequence) that I would deem appropriate for 2019 and the
future.

But there are many directions to take and only one that this mailing
list's membership would find it convenient to support. Such a standard
(that I had recently named 9heritage in my personal notes) will need a
lot of contributing by people who are willing to collaborate where
they are instead tempted to compete, to follow when they instead wish
to lead.

Keep in mind that I live in a country that has unofficially declared
my kind "colonials of a special kind" to pamper to a majority that is
split in nine cultural groups (plus a few less despised minorities)
whose resentment towards whites is their only binding force. I have
personal experience of where competing interests lead and of how hard
it is to promote common interests in their place. Plan 9 right now is
in a similar place, mostly through a similar lack of respected
leadership, if my political opinion is to be trusted.

Lucio.

PS: Is Ori's Git and a plethora of "git forks" (I see that Git itselfs
calls them "heads", how appropriate!) the way to go? I can see some
merit in stripping Labs' system down to the bone and fleshing it up
from the bottom (or is that the top) with the best the community has
already contributed. In 24 years, this has not happened, what is most
likely to do it today?

PPS: I think it was Hiro that contrary to expectations sang the praise
of Richard's Raspberry PI developments and opened one more interesting
door for me. It is precisely these pearls (both Hiro's and Richard's)
that keep me a perhaps undeserving 9fan.

On 11/25/19, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/24/19, Ori Bernstein <ori@eigenstate.org> wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 08:34:32 +0200, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> We just got a mouthful from sl and you about the lack of explanation
>>> for the state  of the various plan 9 "distributions". It all smacks of
>>> expecting Da Vinci to update the Mona Lisa because somebody would
>>> prefer a high-rise landscape in the background and because someone
>>> actually did photoshop the Mona Lisa in that guise, but was not
>>> accepted as the most significant contributor to the painting.
>>
>> I'm not sure that analogy serves the purpose intended.
>>
>> The Mona Lisa is something sitting in a museum for
>> people to gawk at a bit before getting on with their
>> day to day business, using tools that they either
>> adapt to their needs, or replace with ones that are
>> already suitable.
>>
> Having grown up in the country that spawned many Mona Lisa thieves, I
> simply disagree with your evaluation, Ori. That is no reflection of
> the worth of your contribution(s), just a cultural chasm between the
> two us.
>
> And having spent a week visiting Florence (sorry, can't resist
> first-hand anecdotes), I can see both your more pragmatic point of
> view and my own interest in archaeology. I would like to persuade you
> otherwise, but maybe that will happen to you without my help.
>
> Until then (a) I'll be happy but cautious to help you bring the ONE
> Plan 9 to term and will provide all resources at my disposal to do
> that and (b) will continue to ensure that the reasons and rationales
> for Plan 9 are not lost in the quest for Shiny New Features.
>
> 9p.io is a museum piece, I grant, let it stay. If the Mona Lisa or the
> Lamborghini Miura or some similar monuments to human creativity do not
> appeal to you, let me appeal to you on behalf of those who feel like
> me, so that you do not contribute to their destruction.
>
> In my opinion and my philosophy, without history there is no future. I
> can see how that may seem pointless to some, at least for a time.
>
> Lucio.
>


-- 
Lucio De Re
2 Piet Retief St
Kestell (Eastern Free State)
9860 South Africa

Ph.: +27 71 471 3694
Cell: +27 83 251 5824

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Lucio De Re]

On 11/24/19, Ori Bernstein <ori@eigenstate.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 08:34:32 +0200, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> We just got a mouthful from sl and you about the lack of explanation
>> for the state  of the various plan 9 "distributions". It all smacks of
>> expecting Da Vinci to update the Mona Lisa because somebody would
>> prefer a high-rise landscape in the background and because someone
>> actually did photoshop the Mona Lisa in that guise, but was not
>> accepted as the most significant contributor to the painting.
>
> I'm not sure that analogy serves the purpose intended.
>
> The Mona Lisa is something sitting in a museum for
> people to gawk at a bit before getting on with their
> day to day business, using tools that they either
> adapt to their needs, or replace with ones that are
> already suitable.
>
Having grown up in the country that spawned many Mona Lisa thieves, I
simply disagree with your evaluation, Ori. That is no reflection of
the worth of your contribution(s), just a cultural chasm between the
two us.

And having spent a week visiting Florence (sorry, can't resist
first-hand anecdotes), I can see both your more pragmatic point of
view and my own interest in archaeology. I would like to persuade you
otherwise, but maybe that will happen to you without my help.

Until then (a) I'll be happy but cautious to help you bring the ONE
Plan 9 to term and will provide all resources at my disposal to do
that and (b) will continue to ensure that the reasons and rationales
for Plan 9 are not lost in the quest for Shiny New Features.

9p.io is a museum piece, I grant, let it stay. If the Mona Lisa or the
Lamborghini Miura or some similar monuments to human creativity do not
appeal to you, let me appeal to you on behalf of those who feel like
me, so that you do not contribute to their destruction.

In my opinion and my philosophy, without history there is no future. I
can see how that may seem pointless to some, at least for a time.

Lucio.

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Ori Bernstein]

On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 08:34:32 +0200, Lucio De Re <lucio.dere@gmail.com> wrote:

> We just got a mouthful from sl and you about the lack of explanation
> for the state  of the various plan 9 "distributions". It all smacks of
> expecting Da Vinci to update the Mona Lisa because somebody would
> prefer a high-rise landscape in the background and because someone
> actually did photoshop the Mona Lisa in that guise, but was not
> accepted as the most significant contributor to the painting.
 
I'm not sure that analogy serves the purpose intended.

The Mona Lisa is something sitting in a museum for
people to gawk at a bit before getting on with their
day to day business, using tools that they either
adapt to their needs, or replace with ones that are
already suitable.

-- 
    Ori Bernstein

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[David Butler]

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9fans,

First let me agree that 9legacy.org <http://9legacy.org/> is the best destination for this thread, is there a living “vanilla" Plan9. And by “vanilla” I’m talking about what was released and maintained by AT&T / Lucent / Alcatel, to the end, on January 2015. I applaud the strategy of separating the patches from the base code because it help clarify license issues. It leaves it to the user of the code to resolve each patch’s ownership, accepting those you can get reasonable license terms from and rejecting those that you can’t. Look at the very last paragraph of http://www.9legacy.org/patch.html <http://www.9legacy.org/patch.html>. David du Colombier explicitly provides a license for his patches. But leaves all other submissions to the author. For example, I don’t see a similar grant from another frequent patch supplier, Erik Quanstrom. For interesting complexities, look at patch http://www.9legacy.org/9legacy/patch/upas-nfs-p9p.diff <http://www.9legacy.org/9legacy/patch/upas-nfs-p9p.diff>. It was supplied by Russ Cox that says “This port is the work of David du Colombier with contributions from Justin Bedo.” What is the license grant?

As you can imagine, so goes every other Plan9 based code. As a result, none of them are a good place to start, nor continue. I won’t bore you with the details of my attempt to get reasonable license terms (you can research the 9fans messages from many years ago), but corporate lawyers kill great software.

The situation was finally resolved in February 2014 when The University of California, Berkeley received permission to release Plan9 under GPLv2. (http://akaros.cs.berkeley.edu/akaros-web/news.php <http://akaros.cs.berkeley.edu/akaros-web/news.php>). From that page you can download the distribution here <http://akaros.cs.berkeley.edu/files/plan9.tar.bz2> or clone it from the git repo <https://github.com/brho/plan9>. Dislike GPL all you like, but it provides one, very fundamental, feature lacking in almost every other “free” software license. The license is in force by reading. There is no chase to figure out if a patch submitter granted a compatible license. Or even if they have the right to! (You may be surprised what you have to get your corporate employer to agree to in this regard.)

So, IMHO, all future work on Plan9 should be applied to the GPLv2 release. Yes, orphaning all other Plan9 progress. They are only good for hobby use. If you ever want to use Plan9 for profit, it better be based on the GPLv2 code.

David Butler

> On Nov 24, 2019, at 11:07 AM, David du Colombier <0intro@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Actually, you know what, I should put my money
>> where my mouth is. Would there be objections to
>> me going through and fixing the links in the
>> wiki so they point to 9p.io?
> 
> This is a good idea. Let me know how do you want to proceed.
> 
>> Is there anyone who would be comfortable explaining
>> to me exactly the relationship between 9p.io and
>> 9legacy, as well as how people are expected to use
>> the two, so that I can put that into the wiki?
> 
> 9p.io is a mirror of the former Bell Labs website.
> 
> We're still accepting patches and people can
> update their contrib directory. However, the
> rest is mostly read-only.
> 
> 9legacy is the latest Plan 9 from Bell Labs sources
> (2015-01-10) with addition of a few hundreds patches.
> It's regularly updated.
> 
>> Is there anywhere that people would be comfortable
>> blessing as a source for building new ISO images,
>> to put behind the download link, with the accepted
>> patches integrated?
> 
> That's mostly what 9legacy is.
> 
> -- 
> David du Colombier
> 
> ------------------------------------------
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Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[David L. Craig]

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On 19Nov24:0830-0800, ori@eigenstate.org wrote:

> >> The most official looking site for vanilla plan9 is 9p.io.  It
> >> doesn't show any sign of activity since 2015.
> > 
> > Please look more closely:
> > 
> > cpu% srv -n 9p.io sources /n/sources
> 
> Usually, that's not what people mean when they
> say 'site'.
> 
> It's good to see patches being posted, but for
> someone who is interested in experimenting with
> plan 9 for the first time, it's not clear that
> these exist, let alone which are important.
> 
> Actually, you know what, I should put my money
> where my mouth is. Would there be objections to
> me going through and fixing the links in the
> wiki so they point to 9p.io?
> 
> Is there anyone who would be comfortable explaining
> to me exactly the relationship between 9p.io and
> 9legacy, as well as how people are expected to use
> the two, so that I can put that into the wiki?
> 
> Is there anywhere that people would be comfortable
> blessing as a source for building new ISO images,
> to put behind the download link, with the accepted
> patches integrated?
> 
> (Yes, I do use 9front, but I'm not religious. I'd
> be happy to take some time to improve labs, too.
> I also hate people who complain without doing the
> work to improve things.)
> 
> > "Usable" is a function of who's doing the using.
> > I use the Labs version every day and it does what
> > I need.
> 
> The impression I got was that many users (in the
> 9front world, at least) have a system patched
> to their desires, and don't run things fully
> vanilla, direct from the ISO.

Over five years ago I was compelled to stop work on my
cookbook for newbies to implement a working Plan 9 virtual
server with a drawterm interface on a GNU/Linux platform
supporting virtual machines.  I have received one email
from someone who successfully got started thereby and it's
still available at http://dlcusa.net/vp9cb-9pio, but after
reading this thread, I wonder if it's worth the effort to
get back to it eventually and finish the job.
-- 
<not cent from sell>
May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly!

Dave_Craig______________________________________________
"So the universe is not quite as you thought it was.
 You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then.
 Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe."
__--from_Nightfall_by_Asimov/Silverberg_________________

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Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[David du Colombier]

> Actually, you know what, I should put my money
> where my mouth is. Would there be objections to
> me going through and fixing the links in the
> wiki so they point to 9p.io?

This is a good idea. Let me know how do you want to proceed.

> Is there anyone who would be comfortable explaining
> to me exactly the relationship between 9p.io and
> 9legacy, as well as how people are expected to use
> the two, so that I can put that into the wiki?

9p.io is a mirror of the former Bell Labs website.

We're still accepting patches and people can
update their contrib directory. However, the
rest is mostly read-only.

9legacy is the latest Plan 9 from Bell Labs sources
(2015-01-10) with addition of a few hundreds patches.
It's regularly updated.

> Is there anywhere that people would be comfortable
> blessing as a source for building new ISO images,
> to put behind the download link, with the accepted
> patches integrated?

That's mostly what 9legacy is.

-- 
David du Colombier

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[ori]

>> The most official looking site for vanilla plan9 is 9p.io.  It
>> doesn't show any sign of activity since 2015.
> 
> Please look more closely:
> 
> cpu% srv -n 9p.io sources /n/sources

Usually, that's not what people mean when they
say 'site'.

It's good to see patches being posted, but for
someone who is interested in experimenting with
plan 9 for the first time, it's not clear that
these exist, let alone which are important.

Actually, you know what, I should put my money
where my mouth is. Would there be objections to
me going through and fixing the links in the
wiki so they point to 9p.io?

Is there anyone who would be comfortable explaining
to me exactly the relationship between 9p.io and
9legacy, as well as how people are expected to use
the two, so that I can put that into the wiki?

Is there anywhere that people would be comfortable
blessing as a source for building new ISO images,
to put behind the download link, with the accepted
patches integrated?

(Yes, I do use 9front, but I'm not religious. I'd
be happy to take some time to improve labs, too.
I also hate people who complain without doing the
work to improve things.)

> "Usable" is a function of who's doing the using.  I use the Labs
> version every day and it does what I need.

The impression I got was that many users (in the
9front world, at least) have a system patched
to their desires, and don't run things fully
vanilla, direct from the ISO.

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[hiro]

ok, that is undeniably activity.

now i'm giving an even more *horrible* metric of activity, to defend
our confusion at least slightly. 9front activity during the same
period:
hg log|sed -n '1,/Mar 18.*2016/p'|grep changeset|wc -l
2282

here i give only the count of commits, and hope somebody will feel
motivated to check the actual content instead of me reciting them all
here. in the end what matters is what is inside. there have been lots
of improvements to plan 9 you can find 9front.

9front contributions in my opinion are far from superficial or
cosmetic as the art analogy earlier seemed to suggest. it's not only
new drivers, there are also deeper changes, lots of bugfixes,
updating, polishing has been done. quality has generally improved a
lot - i wonder what gave anybody the opposite impression...

it makes me sad to believe that regardless of our cultural differences
you cannot see the technical merit of what has been contributed to
9front.

how about more people try to actually use the software that has been
contributed, so that we together have a chance to at least praise all
the guys doing the heavy lifting (not me). apart from miller, i don't
feel like most people having this discussion here are at all invested,
i.e. contributing any code...

thanks for your work, too, richard miller, i finally got a rpi4, and
i'm enjoying 4k@60hz native plan9. it's something none of the much
more expensive modern intel igpu can even deliver via hdmi :)
and the usb is working, and the gigabit ethernet is working. it's phenomenal.
i never gave you much thanks before this because i had such awful
experiences with rpi hardware that i could not even fathom anybody's
investment in such flawed hardware.
but now that they have fixed their hardware i can truly make use of
your software, too. turns out to be a great choice after all: a niche
product/form-factor, but well worth it.
and so, thanks again.

with enough space to put all the thinkpads and rpi4 and big 4k screen
and keyboard and mouse, i hope i will sooner rather than later not
only administer, but instead use plan 9 as intended as a development
environment and contribute something back. i hope people can relate in
the meantime.

On 11/24/19, Richard Miller <9fans@hamnavoe.com> wrote:
>> The most official looking site for vanilla plan9 is 9p.io.  It
>> doesn't show any sign of activity since 2015.
>
> Please look more closely:
>
> cpu% srv -n 9p.io sources /n/sources
> post...
> cpu% ls -lrt /n/sources/patch/*/files|tail -24
> --rw-rw-r-- M 2032 fst        sys 160 Mar 18  2016
> /n/sources/patch/kexportfs/files
> --rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys 102 Apr 19  2016
> /n/sources/patch/segment-overlap/files
> --rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys  30 Apr 19  2016
> /n/sources/patch/proc-smp-fixes/files
> --rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys 172 Apr 19  2016
> /n/sources/patch/armv7-atomic/files
> --rw-rw-r-- M 2032 djc        sys  36 Apr 19  2016
> /n/sources/patch/pread-offset/files
> --rw-rw-r-- M 2032 fst        sys  33 May 22  2016
> /n/sources/patch/dial-await-bug/files
> --rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys  38 May 29  2016
> /n/sources/patch/usbserial-ftdi-writelen/files
> --rw-rw-r-- M 2032 bootes     sys  76 May 29  2016
> /n/sources/patch/usbether-rpi/files
> --rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys  29 May 30  2016
> /n/sources/patch/ramfs-fixes/files
> --rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys 272 Nov  6  2016
> /n/sources/patch/wpa-psk/files
> --rw-rw-r-- M 2032 fst        sys  43 Feb  9  2017
> /n/sources/patch/tcp-halfduplex-close/files
> --rw-rw-r-- M 2032 stevesimon sys  44 Feb 21  2017
> /n/sources/patch/sed-unbuffered/files
> --rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys 102 Mar 13  2017
> /n/sources/patch/usb-ether-cdc/files
> --rw-rw-r-- M 2032 stevesimon sys  38 Mar 14  2017
> /n/sources/patch/httpfile-suicide/files
> --rw-rw-rw- M 2032 none       sys  41 Jun 29  2017
> /n/sources/patch/ndb-remove-cast/files
> --rw-rw-rw- M 2032 none       sys  27 Aug 30  2017
> /n/sources/patch/comm-utf-sort/files
> --rw-rw-rw- M 2032 none       sys  29 Aug 30  2017
> /n/sources/patch/ascii-extra-newline/files
> --rw-rw-rw- M 2032 none       sys  35 Aug 31  2017
> /n/sources/patch/gmtime-tzoff-unset/files
> --rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys 297 Apr  5  2018
> /n/sources/patch/usb-ether-lan78xx/files
> --rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys  36 Apr  5  2018
> /n/sources/patch/exec-postnote-race/files
> --rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys  30 Apr  5  2018
> /n/sources/patch/exit-wrong-parent/files
> --rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys  28 Apr  9  2018
> /n/sources/patch/ssh2-dh-group14/files
> --rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys  33 Apr  9  2018
> /n/sources/patch/aes-ctr/files
> --rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys 114 Apr  9  2018
> /n/sources/patch/ssh2-aes-ctr/files
> cpu%
>
> Not a huge amount of churn there, but still a "sign of activity".
>
>> I've been around for a while and I
>> would have trouble finding the bits needed for a day-to-day usable
>> system outside of the 9front world.
>
> "Usable" is a function of who's doing the using.  I use the Labs version
> every day and it does what I need. If another version suits somebody else,
> that's great.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------
> 9fans: 9fans
> Permalink:
> https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-M052a3e3f58db7d6a230a0a5a
> Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
>

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Richard Miller]

> The most official looking site for vanilla plan9 is 9p.io.  It
> doesn't show any sign of activity since 2015.

Please look more closely:

cpu% srv -n 9p.io sources /n/sources
post...
cpu% ls -lrt /n/sources/patch/*/files|tail -24
--rw-rw-r-- M 2032 fst        sys 160 Mar 18  2016 /n/sources/patch/kexportfs/files
--rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys 102 Apr 19  2016 /n/sources/patch/segment-overlap/files
--rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys  30 Apr 19  2016 /n/sources/patch/proc-smp-fixes/files
--rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys 172 Apr 19  2016 /n/sources/patch/armv7-atomic/files
--rw-rw-r-- M 2032 djc        sys  36 Apr 19  2016 /n/sources/patch/pread-offset/files
--rw-rw-r-- M 2032 fst        sys  33 May 22  2016 /n/sources/patch/dial-await-bug/files
--rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys  38 May 29  2016 /n/sources/patch/usbserial-ftdi-writelen/files
--rw-rw-r-- M 2032 bootes     sys  76 May 29  2016 /n/sources/patch/usbether-rpi/files
--rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys  29 May 30  2016 /n/sources/patch/ramfs-fixes/files
--rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys 272 Nov  6  2016 /n/sources/patch/wpa-psk/files
--rw-rw-r-- M 2032 fst        sys  43 Feb  9  2017 /n/sources/patch/tcp-halfduplex-close/files
--rw-rw-r-- M 2032 stevesimon sys  44 Feb 21  2017 /n/sources/patch/sed-unbuffered/files
--rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys 102 Mar 13  2017 /n/sources/patch/usb-ether-cdc/files
--rw-rw-r-- M 2032 stevesimon sys  38 Mar 14  2017 /n/sources/patch/httpfile-suicide/files
--rw-rw-rw- M 2032 none       sys  41 Jun 29  2017 /n/sources/patch/ndb-remove-cast/files
--rw-rw-rw- M 2032 none       sys  27 Aug 30  2017 /n/sources/patch/comm-utf-sort/files
--rw-rw-rw- M 2032 none       sys  29 Aug 30  2017 /n/sources/patch/ascii-extra-newline/files
--rw-rw-rw- M 2032 none       sys  35 Aug 31  2017 /n/sources/patch/gmtime-tzoff-unset/files
--rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys 297 Apr  5  2018 /n/sources/patch/usb-ether-lan78xx/files
--rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys  36 Apr  5  2018 /n/sources/patch/exec-postnote-race/files
--rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys  30 Apr  5  2018 /n/sources/patch/exit-wrong-parent/files
--rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys  28 Apr  9  2018 /n/sources/patch/ssh2-dh-group14/files
--rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys  33 Apr  9  2018 /n/sources/patch/aes-ctr/files
--rw-rw-r-- M 2032 miller     sys 114 Apr  9  2018 /n/sources/patch/ssh2-aes-ctr/files
cpu% 

Not a huge amount of churn there, but still a "sign of activity".  

> I've been around for a while and I
> would have trouble finding the bits needed for a day-to-day usable
> system outside of the 9front world.

"Usable" is a function of who's doing the using.  I use the Labs version
every day and it does what I need. If another version suits somebody else,
that's great.

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 08:34:32AM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote:
> We just got a mouthful from sl and you about the lack of explanation
> for the state  of the various plan 9 "distributions". It all smacks of
> expecting Da Vinci to update the Mona Lisa because somebody would
> prefer a high-rise landscape in the background and because someone
> actually did photoshop the Mona Lisa in that guise, but was not
> accepted as the most significant contributor to the painting.

I'm not really following the art analogy here, but nothing I've said on
this list is new.  It's all documented either on 9front.org or (more
frequently) in the manual, which comes with the operating system.  The
9front ISO also contains the complete mercurial history of 9front, but
does not include or refer to the 'ports' repo. 

Most of the developers of 9front don't use (or even like) the 'ports' 
repository.  As far as I know the software in it works on any Plan 9
system.  Regardless, I'll work with its maintainers to clarify the
non-relationship in the README file.

If you have any other suggestions for improving the state of things, let
me know.  

If I'm honest, I suspect most of 9fans doesn't really give a shit about
most of these issues.  If anyone did, they probably would have said
something before now, or done something to ameliorate any of them.
Instead, they only seem to show up when someone gets mad about something
else and then decides to air unrelated grievances -- which is a shame, 
because the sooner they're voiced the easier it is to fix things.  I'm
sure the performative outrage is much more gratifying in the moment.

If anyone wants anything fixed, I'm available for that.  If I have to
wait until someone whatabouts something else, that's fine too, it's just
slower.  Either way, I'll try.

khm

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Lucio De Re]

On 11/23/19, hiro <23hiro@gmail.com> wrote:

> i'm not sure you got sl's philosophy here. of course he will deny i
> do, but here's my interpretation anyway: the public generally seems to
> frown upon technology. people don't even want products any more. all
> they need is a flashy name. a future idea to be had. just buy another
> app, download it. don't even use it. try it out another day when it is
> actually more convenient for you.
>
This here is a "Plan 9 contributors mutual admiration society" mailing
list, a lot like a very large marriage; with all the thorns that
complement the occasional budding rose and all the pain the hopefully
rare divorce brings.

Somebody coming along to promote 9front as the real heir to some
totally inappropriate throne, to lord it over a scattering of
communities that like to play with the one exotic toy they managed to
salvage when they escaped from the clutches of Bill Gates first and
Linus Torvalds second, well, that someone should at least show some
manners.

Failing which, I think it is reasonable for them to get escoriated, as
there seem to be few if any other mechanism for the local team
supporters to express their annoyance.

Of course, I presume none of us "bitter old hypocrites (of the male
variety)" - as Aram seems to have felt a need to label us - would risk
trying to bully the 9front mailing list participants, in our frailty.
Nevertheless, maybe just pointing out that bullying is so 1980s will
have some positive effect, at least for a couple of days.

Lucio.

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Lucio De Re]

On 11/24/19, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
>
> The other repos on that site are either user repos run by random people
> who asked me for access, or else various code I've collected around the
> internet and did not want to lose.  Some of those repos came from Uriel
> and I never have figured out what they are or where they came from.  If
> anyone can help with those, I'd appreciate it.
>
We just got a mouthful from sl and you about the lack of explanation
for the state  of the various plan 9 "distributions". It all smacks of
expecting Da Vinci to update the Mona Lisa because somebody would
prefer a high-rise landscape in the background and because someone
actually did photoshop the Mona Lisa in that guise, but was not
accepted as the most significant contributor to the painting.

I really don't feel like being kind to that sentiment, but I will
refrain to lower myself to the level of disrespect that sl
demonstrated. You used to have that position, Kurt with Hiro a close
second (no offence intended, Kurt or Hiro, we are what we are and I
find much of it stimulating), but between sl and Aram, they have left
the two of you standing!

Lucio.

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Bakul Shah]

On Nov 23, 2019, at 9:25 PM, greemngreek@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> I was just curious if it had any chances of coming back or were 9legacy and 9front the only options.

Ah. :-) But why? It is just out of idle curiosity, such
as wondering about an old friend you haven't seen in
decades or you actually wanted to use plan9?

Personally I'd recommend 9pi. Raspi + 9pi is a great
combination and there is plenty to explore, plenty of real
world things to control. There are a lot of pi "hats" that
would be fun to play with or use.

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[greemngreek]

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I was just curious if it had any chances of coming back or were 9legacy and 9front the only options.

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Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Bakul Shah]

On Nov 21, 2019, at 10:29 PM, greemngreek@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> The site hasn't been updated since 2014-2015. If it's dead, is there any chance of it coming back into development?

Why do you ask? What do you want to do?

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 04:35:25PM -0600, Steven Stallion wrote:
> The upstream version of Mercurial in the 9front ports collection is
> based on my work, not bichued's:
> https://code.9front.org/hg/ports/file/5f994209e142/dev-vcs/mercurial/mkfile
> 

That repo is run by 9front users; I just host it.  That's why the
contact point is mveety in the repo listing.  9front doesn't ship any of
that code.  

> The amount of work wasn't much, but if you're going to dredge up
> ancient history, at least be accurate:

I wasn't aware I was dredging anything up.  You complained about
something, and I went looking to see if I could fix the problem.

This repo is 9front:  http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/

Nothing else is 9front, and all of 9front is in that repo.  Here is the
revision history for the mercurial mkfile in 9front:
http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/log/tip/sys/src/cmd/hg/mkfile

Obviously the people who work on the ports appreciate your effort, but
it is not the same port of mercurial that 9front uses.  I hope this
clears up the issue.

In the future, if anyone is dissatisfied with any of the attribution or
use of any of the code in 9front, please feel free to contact the 9front
mailing list, and I'll do my best to verify & fix any such problems.
Complete archives are available over 9p; there's a script to make
accessing them easier at
https://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/file/tip/rc/bin/9fs

If you'd prefer, you can also email me directly.

The other repos on that site are either user repos run by random people
who asked me for access, or else various code I've collected around the
internet and did not want to lose.  Some of those repos came from Uriel
and I never have figured out what they are or where they came from.  If
anyone can help with those, I'd appreciate it.

thanks,
khm

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Skip Tavakkolian]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3267 bytes --]

It is unfortunate that some believe that being caustic is a prerequisite
for 9front advocacy.

Worse, many 9front advocates become offended by any challenge to claims
they make, while at the same time administering personal insults with ease.

Fixing the fragmentation doesn't come from starting yet another fork.



On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 3:10 PM Ori Bernstein <ori@eigenstate.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 08:24:41 -0600, Steven Stallion <sstallion@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Against my better judgement...
>
> On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 08:24:41 -0600, Steven Stallion <sstallion@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 3:30 AM Richard Miller <9fans@hamnavoe.com>
> wrote:
> > > Grow up.
> >
> > Indeed. It's interesting that folks from 9front like to tout their
> > development as "open" using tools that others in the community have
> > developed in addition to their own. To wit, you seem to have gotten
> > along quite nicely using the porting work I did for Mercurial in 2012.
>
> Yes, and thank you. I mean that.
>
> You put your code in the open, and people that found it useful
> were able to use it.
>
> > The Plan 9 community is certainly fragmented, but there are still a
> > number of people that are willing to share their knowledge and work
> > with others and it benefits no one to cast aspersions.
>
> It's frustrating. I *want* to see a healthy, active Labs
> distribution.
>
> From my viewpoint, fragmentation doesn't capture the nature of the
> difficulty. The problem is that the fragments are invisible.
>
> The most official looking site for vanilla plan9 is 9p.io.  It
> doesn't show any sign of activity since 2015.  The wiki not only
> fails to point to a more up to date location, it confuses the
> issue by exclusively pointing at dead links.
>
> 9legacy exists. It doesn't bill itself as living continuation of
> Plan 9.  It claims it's a patch set for the last image to come
> out of the moldering corpse of Bell Labs. Even there, '9fs sources'
> tries to connect to the long-gone sources.cs.bell-labs.com.
>
> There's code scattered on contrib, but as for who has the most up
> to date/maintained/functioinal version of something -- it's
> hearsay, and usually, I haven't heard anyone say.
>
> There's the plan9-contrib github repository, but the last commit
> on that was over a year ago, and until recently, there was no way
> to use it *from* plan 9 -- now, lufia has ported git, and I wrote
> git9.  Lufia's patches seem to be stalled in review.
>
> There are contrib directories, but projects are haphazardly thrown
> in, often duplicated them, with no indication of what's working,
> up to date, or maintained.
>
> Code may exist, but...  where?  I've been around for a while and I
> would have trouble finding the bits needed for a day-to-day usable
> system outside of the 9front world.
>
> God have mercy on someone trying to use the system seriously for the
> first time.
>
> --
>     Ori Bernstein
>
> ------------------------------------------
> 9fans: 9fans
> Permalink:
> https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-Mb9b516149f01370f96ffb6b8
> Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4422 bytes --]

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Ori Bernstein]

On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 08:24:41 -0600, Steven Stallion <sstallion@gmail.com> wrote:

Against my better judgement...

On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 08:24:41 -0600, Steven Stallion <sstallion@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 3:30 AM Richard Miller <9fans@hamnavoe.com> wrote:
> > Grow up.
> 
> Indeed. It's interesting that folks from 9front like to tout their
> development as "open" using tools that others in the community have
> developed in addition to their own. To wit, you seem to have gotten
> along quite nicely using the porting work I did for Mercurial in 2012.

Yes, and thank you. I mean that.

You put your code in the open, and people that found it useful
were able to use it.

> The Plan 9 community is certainly fragmented, but there are still a
> number of people that are willing to share their knowledge and work
> with others and it benefits no one to cast aspersions.

It's frustrating. I *want* to see a healthy, active Labs
distribution.

From my viewpoint, fragmentation doesn't capture the nature of the
difficulty. The problem is that the fragments are invisible.

The most official looking site for vanilla plan9 is 9p.io.  It
doesn't show any sign of activity since 2015.  The wiki not only
fails to point to a more up to date location, it confuses the
issue by exclusively pointing at dead links.

9legacy exists. It doesn't bill itself as living continuation of
Plan 9.  It claims it's a patch set for the last image to come
out of the moldering corpse of Bell Labs. Even there, '9fs sources'
tries to connect to the long-gone sources.cs.bell-labs.com.

There's code scattered on contrib, but as for who has the most up
to date/maintained/functioinal version of something -- it's
hearsay, and usually, I haven't heard anyone say.

There's the plan9-contrib github repository, but the last commit
on that was over a year ago, and until recently, there was no way
to use it *from* plan 9 -- now, lufia has ported git, and I wrote
git9.  Lufia's patches seem to be stalled in review.

There are contrib directories, but projects are haphazardly thrown
in, often duplicated them, with no indication of what's working,
up to date, or maintained.

Code may exist, but...  where?  I've been around for a while and I
would have trouble finding the bits needed for a day-to-day usable
system outside of the 9front world.

God have mercy on someone trying to use the system seriously for the
first time.

-- 
    Ori Bernstein

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[hiro]

> The amount of work wasn't much

then why bring it up?

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[hiro]

oh. nobody uses that. i wish that stupid ports repo didn't exist :)

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Steven Stallion]

The upstream version of Mercurial in the 9front ports collection is
based on my work, not bichued's:
https://code.9front.org/hg/ports/file/5f994209e142/dev-vcs/mercurial/mkfile

The amount of work wasn't much, but if you're going to dredge up
ancient history, at least be accurate:
http://mail.9fans.net/pipermail/9fans/2012-April/023243.html
https://www.mercurial-scm.org/wiki/Plan9FromBellLabs
https://www.mercurial-scm.org/wiki/FactotumExtension
https://www.mercurial-scm.org/pipermail/mercurial-devel/2012-April/039078.html

On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 2:28 PM Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
>
> To follow up, 9front mercurial originated from
> /n/sources/contrib/bichued/ in 2009.  So this is yet another example of
> the complete lack of discoverability being a source of unending
> confusion in the Plan 9 community.  How many years have people been
> pissed off about "stolen work" or whatever based on similar
> misconceptions?  We'll never know.  So much information gets lost, and
> it takes concentrated effort to reconstruct the timelines.  A stitch in
> time saves nine!
>
> khm
>
> ------------------------------------------
> 9fans: 9fans
> Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-M05aa51942958bd173676b94d
> Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Kurt H Maier]

To follow up, 9front mercurial originated from
/n/sources/contrib/bichued/ in 2009.  So this is yet another example of
the complete lack of discoverability being a source of unending
confusion in the Plan 9 community.  How many years have people been
pissed off about "stolen work" or whatever based on similar
misconceptions?  We'll never know.  So much information gets lost, and
it takes concentrated effort to reconstruct the timelines.  A stitch in
time saves nine!

khm

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 08:24:41AM -0600, Steven Stallion wrote:
> 
> Indeed. It's interesting that folks from 9front like to tout their
> development as "open" using tools that others in the community have
> developed in addition to their own. To wit, you seem to have gotten
> along quite nicely using the porting work I did for Mercurial in 2012.

I'm not sure what this paragraph means.  Can you clarify?  If you feel
something in 9front is misattributed or should be clarified as your
work, it will take seconds to fix. Can you be specific?  Initial commits
were in 2011, and I don't see much change to the mercurial code until
some CVE fixes in 2014.  I'd be happy to amend the record on your
behalf.

I also don't understand the scare quotes around "open" or the part about
using other people's software.  That's kind of the point of the license.

> (FWIW, I found this response especially entertaining after visiting
> code.9front.org; "Just Send the Money" indeed.)

402 Payment Required is my default response to search engine crawlers
and unpopulated URL paths.  code.9front.org returns that up front to
mitigate search engines, which otherwise beat the shit out of hgweb.
9front infrastructure is all paid for out of pocket by me and sl, so
we're not really interested in spending bandwidth on Google's bottom
line.  the actual hgweb pages (everything under code.9front.org/hg) have
working search functions.

the "just send the money" text is a decade-old joke about support
contracts and how they handle bug reports.   You may note that there is
no actual money-collecting infrastructure presented, because nobody
actually sends the money.

khm

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 09:29:14AM +0000, Richard Miller wrote:
> 
> Never mind, I think I can just about see the gist of what you're
> trying to get across.  It's meant to be insulting, right?
> 

It's meant to be a practical answer.  When people come looking for
information, they want to know where the information is.  "It's in six
different places, and the only consistent place to find them is by
asking over and over again on a mailing list, because they move every
couple years" is not an answer that people find much use for.

Generalizations are useful ways to get an overall picture of the
situation.  If you read the documents on 9p.io, none of the people who
currently develop Plan 9 or software for it are even mentioned except in
the contrib index.  

An example of this is how people always describe 9p.io as a mirror.  I'm
grateful it's up, but the first time I found out that people have been
posting source code to it post-mirror is *in this thread*.  How is
anyone supposed to have been able to discover this?  Repeatedly walking
the tree and diffing everything just in case?

Another good example is the kernel changes we only find out about when
someone tries to build a Go beta on 9front, fails, and then we realize
that someone on that team has modified the kernel for the language.  I
opened a ticket and asked for such things to be mentioned in the Go
release notes, and they kindly accomodated me.  But that was not the
default behavior; the default behavior was to assume everyone was
monitoring some mercurial repository on bitbucket.  Those assumptions do
not hold.

As for the "just send the money" joke, the code lives at
code.9front.org/hg/ and the (little-used, despite years of requests for
its existence) wiki is at code.9front.org/wiki/.  The code repos are
documented on 9front.org and the wiki is not advertised beyond the
people who asked for it, but it's open to everyone and contains a
changelog.  

I appreciate the work that people put into Plan 9.  The reality of that
work is that it's scattered, difficult to find, and necessitates years
of monitoring 9fans to identify the people who do it.  That works for
the people involved, and nobody at this point expects it to change, but
it is extremely disconnected from the way people tend to go about
developing software nowadays.  For all practical purposes, sl's answer
is accurate.  Whether it's insulting is really up to the reader.

khm

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[hiro]

imo you should not allow insult by who only tried to insult you in
weakness of feeling insulted by former accused insult.

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Federico Benavento]

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Yeah, WTF.

> On 23 Nov 2019, at 14:16, Skip Tavakkolian <skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> I think (hope) this is sarcasm.
> 
>> On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 6:35 AM Aram Hăvărneanu <aram.h@mgk.ro> wrote:
>> Steve and Richard,
>> 
>> You are a bunch of hypocrites. Bitter old men.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Aram Hăvărneanu
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------
>> 9fans: 9fans
>> Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-M08bfe720c68d2b835d25e368
>> Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
> 
> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink

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Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[hiro]

On 11/23/19, Richard Miller <9fans@hamnavoe.com> wrote:
>> nobody takes any of it seriously because none of them really use
>> plan 9 to do anything people use computers to do
...
> Never mind, I think I can just about see the gist of what you're
> trying to get across.  It's meant to be insulting, right?

it's insulting to you that nobody takes plan9 serious? or that sl
feels the need to point it out while you know better?

or you disagree? because you take plan9 serious?

i'm not sure you got sl's philosophy here. of course he will deny i
do, but here's my interpretation anyway: the public generally seems to
frown upon technology. people don't even want products any more. all
they need is a flashy name. a future idea to be had. just buy another
app, download it. don't even use it. try it out another day when it is
actually more convenient for you.

never threaten the user that your system will enable them to do
anything. nobody wants an IDE, or to configure an operating system. if
you can just open another tab, why should you buy another computer and
install and configure an operating system that doesn't auto-update
itself and is always out-of-date bec. it lacks support of any
mainstream protocol like netflix or instagram.

if they were consistent they would laugh about ALL operating systems,
but apple and microsoft spend a good deal of marketing to prevent that
:)

it seems that 9front and plan9 are both ridiculous to the public. in
the case of the former i would like to take pride and say for good
reason. for the latter i think it's a sad, cause there was once big
monopolies and bright people backing the effort, and now they are all
busy doing something else that i don't know about - sad for me,
perhaps great for them :P

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Skip Tavakkolian]

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I think (hope) this is sarcasm.

On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 6:35 AM Aram Hăvărneanu <aram.h@mgk.ro> wrote:

> Steve and Richard,
>
> You are a bunch of hypocrites. Bitter old men.
>
> --
> Aram Hăvărneanu
>
> ------------------------------------------
> 9fans: 9fans
> Permalink:
> https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-M08bfe720c68d2b835d25e368
> Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
>

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Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Lucio De Re]

On 11/23/19, Aram Hăvărneanu <aram.h@mgk.ro> wrote:
> Steve and Richard,
>
> You are a bunch of hypocrites. Bitter old men.
>
Not hypocrites, not bitter. Old, maybe.  Nor am I.

One day, Aram, you'll be at the receiving end of criticism or even
ridicule. There is no doubt that you are brilliant, and so are many
9front supporter. But that is just not enough.

-- 
Lucio De Re
2 Piet Retief St
Kestell (Eastern Free State)
9860 South Africa

Ph.: +27 71 471 3694
Cell: +27 83 251 5824

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Aram Hăvărneanu]

Steve and Richard,

You are a bunch of hypocrites. Bitter old men.

-- 
Aram Hăvărneanu

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Steven Stallion]

On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 3:30 AM Richard Miller <9fans@hamnavoe.com> wrote:
> Grow up.

Indeed. It's interesting that folks from 9front like to tout their
development as "open" using tools that others in the community have
developed in addition to their own. To wit, you seem to have gotten
along quite nicely using the porting work I did for Mercurial in 2012.

The Plan 9 community is certainly fragmented, but there are still a
number of people that are willing to share their knowledge and work
with others and it benefits no one to cast aspersions.

(FWIW, I found this response especially entertaining after visiting
code.9front.org; "Just Send the Money" indeed.)

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Richard Miller]

> nobody takes any of it seriously because none of them really use
> plan 9 to do anything people use computers to do

Ummm, what?

Four instances of universal quantification ("nobody", "any of it",
"none of them", "anything") in a sentence which is not even logically
self-consistent.

Never mind, I think I can just about see the gist of what you're
trying to get across.  It's meant to be insulting, right?

Grow up.

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Skip Tavakkolian]

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Not dead; more like Schrödinger's OS.

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019, 3:16 PM <sl@9front.org> wrote:

> most of these answers don't really answer the question everyone knows
> op is asking.  why do we always play these games?
>
> the answer is: no, vanilla plan 9 is not still alive.
>
> background:
>
> plan 9's creators all left bell labs many years ago, and none of them
> use plan 9 anymore[0].  bell labs itself has changed hands a couple of
> times since development of plan 9 came to its ignoble end.  yes, some
> third parties occasionally tinker.  richard miller puts out code that
> can be run on raspberry pi hardware.  some other former heavy users
> occasionally push piecemeal bits of personal projects into the public
> eye.  nobody takes any of it seriously because none of them really use
> plan 9 to do anything people use computers to do[1].  which is not to
> say their efforts aren't appreciated.  thanks, guys.
>
> for some reason, when interested newbs show up on this mailing list
> asking this same question, which happens from time to time, they're
> always made to believe there exists a thriving community of devoted
> plan 9 from bell labs users eager to point them towards resources
> useful for running plan 9 on a computer manufactured after sbc
> rebranded itself as at&t.
>
> 9front was created in 2011 because by then it had already been
> apparent for several years that this was a baldfaced lie.
>
> failing a massive leak of all the code 9fans will swear to you they
> are running on their modern computers, your choices include:
>
> - 9front (new drivers, modern cryptography, useful new programs)
> - 9legacy (an attempt to combine patches from all extant personally
>         maintained copies of the plan 9 source tree)
>
> don't thank me until you've tried to get straight answers to follow-up
> questions.
>
> sl
>
> [0] http://fqa.9front.org/fqa0.html#0.2.3
>
> [1] i'm typing this on a thinkpad x250, over intel wifi/wpa2, running
> 1920x1080 on the native lcd.  it's running plan 9, but is sure ain't
> vanilla[2].
>
> [2] oh yeah, all the code is available here:
> http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front
>
> ------------------------------------------
> 9fans: 9fans
> Permalink:
> https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-M638dbd98d3e82c0062f4a8c0
> Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
>

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Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[greemngreek]

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Thanks for the detailed response!

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Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[sl]

most of these answers don't really answer the question everyone knows
op is asking.  why do we always play these games?

the answer is: no, vanilla plan 9 is not still alive.

background:

plan 9's creators all left bell labs many years ago, and none of them
use plan 9 anymore[0].  bell labs itself has changed hands a couple of
times since development of plan 9 came to its ignoble end.  yes, some
third parties occasionally tinker.  richard miller puts out code that
can be run on raspberry pi hardware.  some other former heavy users
occasionally push piecemeal bits of personal projects into the public
eye.  nobody takes any of it seriously because none of them really use
plan 9 to do anything people use computers to do[1].  which is not to
say their efforts aren't appreciated.  thanks, guys.

for some reason, when interested newbs show up on this mailing list
asking this same question, which happens from time to time, they're
always made to believe there exists a thriving community of devoted
plan 9 from bell labs users eager to point them towards resources
useful for running plan 9 on a computer manufactured after sbc
rebranded itself as at&t.

9front was created in 2011 because by then it had already been
apparent for several years that this was a baldfaced lie.

failing a massive leak of all the code 9fans will swear to you they
are running on their modern computers, your choices include:

- 9front (new drivers, modern cryptography, useful new programs)
- 9legacy (an attempt to combine patches from all extant personally
	maintained copies of the plan 9 source tree)

don't thank me until you've tried to get straight answers to follow-up
questions.

sl

[0] http://fqa.9front.org/fqa0.html#0.2.3

[1] i'm typing this on a thinkpad x250, over intel wifi/wpa2, running
1920x1080 on the native lcd.  it's running plan 9, but is sure ain't
vanilla[2].

[2] oh yeah, all the code is available here:
http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Steven Stallion]

Probably pining for the fjords.

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 2:54 AM Skip Tavakkolian
<skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's not dead; it's resting.
>
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:29 PM <greemngreek@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The site hasn't been updated since 2014-2015. If it's dead, is there any chance of it coming back into development?
>
> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Jens Staal]

Den fre 22 nov. 2019 kl 09:55 skrev Skip Tavakkolian
<skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com>:
>
> It's not dead; it's resting.
>

The whole "thing" about Plan9 was bringing back the dead so it is
thematically on point.

> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:29 PM <greemngreek@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The site hasn't been updated since 2014-2015. If it's dead, is there any chance of it coming back into development?
>
> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Don A. Bailey]

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This :)

> On Nov 22, 2019, at 1:54 AM, Skip Tavakkolian <skip.tavakkolian@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> It's not dead; it's resting.
> 
>> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:29 PM <greemngreek@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The site hasn't been updated since 2014-2015. If it's dead, is there any chance of it coming back into development?
> 
> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink

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Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Skip Tavakkolian]

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It's not dead; it's resting.

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 10:29 PM <greemngreek@gmail.com> wrote:

> The site hasn't been updated since 2014-2015. If it's dead, is there any
> chance of it coming back into development?
> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tb6b3aefeebeb526d-M2740771fe082597f30b98083>
>

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Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Richard Miller]

> The site hasn't been updated since 2014-2015.

The mirror 9pi.io has more recent patches in /sources/patch.
There is also a good selection of patches in 9legacy.org/patch.html

Current raspberry pi kernel source is on 9p.io in /sources/contrib/miller/9/bcm

So yes, there is current development but not centralised.

Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[greemngreek]

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@Fazul It's active? How does it compare to 9front?

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Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Fazlul Shahriar]

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9legacy might interest you: http://www.9legacy.org/intro.html


On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 1:29 AM <greemngreek@gmail.com> wrote:

> The site hasn't been updated since 2014-2015. If it's dead, is there any
> chance of it coming back into development?
> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tb6b3aefeebeb526d-M2740771fe082597f30b98083>
>

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Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

[Nick Owens]

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no.

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019, 22:30 <greemngreek@gmail.com> wrote:

> The site hasn't been updated since 2014-2015. If it's dead, is there any
> chance of it coming back into development?
> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tb6b3aefeebeb526d-M2740771fe082597f30b98083>
>

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