agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

[Richard Riley]

Is there a way to make the default key binding for
gnus-group-get-new-news only fetch from a certain configured level and
below? I dont see it from the docstring. I do see I can prefix each time
but using agent and data roaming , the common use case would be for
"rescan" to only rescan high priority (or low level..) groups where the
boundary is a configured level (if set to nil it rescans all).

Re: agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

[Eric S Fraga]

Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:

> Is there a way to make the default key binding for
> gnus-group-get-new-news only fetch from a certain configured level and
> below? I dont see it from the docstring. I do see I can prefix each time
> but using agent and data roaming , the common use case would be for
> "rescan" to only rescan high priority (or low level..) groups where the
> boundary is a configured level (if set to nil it rescans all).
>

I have gnus-activate-level set to 2 for this reason with most groups'
levels set at 3 except for the high priority ones.  'g' is the command
for rescanning (getting email into/from) groups.

Assuming I understood your question correctly, of course ;-)

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1 + No Gnus v0.16

Re: agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

[Richard Riley]

Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:
>
>> Is there a way to make the default key binding for
>> gnus-group-get-new-news only fetch from a certain configured level and
>> below? I dont see it from the docstring. I do see I can prefix each time
>> but using agent and data roaming , the common use case would be for
>> "rescan" to only rescan high priority (or low level..) groups where the
>> boundary is a configured level (if set to nil it rescans all).
>>
>
> I have gnus-activate-level set to 2 for this reason with most groups'
> levels set at 3 except for the high priority ones.  'g' is the command
> for rescanning (getting email into/from) groups.
>
> Assuming I understood your question correctly, of course ;-)

Yes thats kind of it. Now let me explain (my!) confusion.

The behaviour *unplugged* is where I'm at. Since unplugged you are using
the agent then it makes little sense to me not to activate subscribed
groups. I have already done a C-u 5 g in plugged mode to scan all level
5 and below followed by a Js to download. If I then quit gnus and
restart later (gnus-unplugged is my new "on holiday" default start) then
since I can *see* the subscribed groups (the level of subscridness means
they are subscribed and visible) then there is no immediately obvious
reason not to activate them in unplugged too since its just a case of
displaying the group line activated with the already stored unread
count. As it is I need to C-u 5 g again (unplugged). Does this make some
kind of sense?

Re: agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

[Eric S Fraga]

Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:

> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:
>
>> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Is there a way to make the default key binding for
>>> gnus-group-get-new-news only fetch from a certain configured level and
>>> below? I dont see it from the docstring. I do see I can prefix each time
>>> but using agent and data roaming , the common use case would be for
>>> "rescan" to only rescan high priority (or low level..) groups where the
>>> boundary is a configured level (if set to nil it rescans all).
>>>
>>
>> I have gnus-activate-level set to 2 for this reason with most groups'
>> levels set at 3 except for the high priority ones.  'g' is the command
>> for rescanning (getting email into/from) groups.
>>
>> Assuming I understood your question correctly, of course ;-)
>
> Yes thats kind of it. Now let me explain (my!) confusion.
>
> The behaviour *unplugged* is where I'm at. Since unplugged you are using
> the agent then it makes little sense to me not to activate subscribed
> groups. I have already done a C-u 5 g in plugged mode to scan all level
> 5 and below followed by a Js to download. If I then quit gnus and
> restart later (gnus-unplugged is my new "on holiday" default start) then
> since I can *see* the subscribed groups (the level of subscridness means
> they are subscribed and visible) then there is no immediately obvious
> reason not to activate them in unplugged too since its just a case of
> displaying the group line activated with the already stored unread
> count. As it is I need to C-u 5 g again (unplugged). Does this make some
> kind of sense?
>

I think I do understand.  You may wish to set not only
gnus-activate-level but also gnus-activate-foreign-newsgroups to 5?  It
defaults to 4, I believe.

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1 + No Gnus v0.16

Re: agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

[Richard Riley]

Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:
>
>> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:
>>
>>> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Is there a way to make the default key binding for
>>>> gnus-group-get-new-news only fetch from a certain configured level and
>>>> below? I dont see it from the docstring. I do see I can prefix each time
>>>> but using agent and data roaming , the common use case would be for
>>>> "rescan" to only rescan high priority (or low level..) groups where the
>>>> boundary is a configured level (if set to nil it rescans all).
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have gnus-activate-level set to 2 for this reason with most groups'
>>> levels set at 3 except for the high priority ones.  'g' is the command
>>> for rescanning (getting email into/from) groups.
>>>
>>> Assuming I understood your question correctly, of course ;-)
>>
>> Yes thats kind of it. Now let me explain (my!) confusion.
>>
>> The behaviour *unplugged* is where I'm at. Since unplugged you are using
>> the agent then it makes little sense to me not to activate subscribed
>> groups. I have already done a C-u 5 g in plugged mode to scan all level
>> 5 and below followed by a Js to download. If I then quit gnus and
>> restart later (gnus-unplugged is my new "on holiday" default start) then
>> since I can *see* the subscribed groups (the level of subscridness means
>> they are subscribed and visible) then there is no immediately obvious
>> reason not to activate them in unplugged too since its just a case of
>> displaying the group line activated with the already stored unread
>> count. As it is I need to C-u 5 g again (unplugged). Does this make some
>> kind of sense?
>>
>
> I think I do understand.  You may wish to set not only
> gnus-activate-level but also gnus-activate-foreign-newsgroups to 5?  It
> defaults to 4, I believe.

That works yes! Wow. Thanks!  But "foreign group"? Why are they foreign
groups? They are groups attached to nntp servers defined in select
methods. Ye gods its complicated ;) ...

Re: agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

[Richard Riley]

Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:

> That works yes! Wow. Thanks!  But "foreign group"? Why are they foreign
> groups? They are groups attached to nntp servers defined in select
> methods. Ye gods its complicated ;) ...
>

I spoke too soon. Yes this "activates" the groups. But it also means
they now, when plugged, fetch using the default "g" rather than when I
specifically WANT these less important groups using something C-u 5
g. Theres some kind of functionality overlap between plugged, activated
and subscribed which seems to defeatt my use case.

To reiterate

I have some "higher level" levels for things like gaming nntp group for
example. Lets say level 5. Imap and some others are at level 3.

I set gnus-activate-level to 3.

When "plugged" hitting "g" will now only fetch for level and below (its
back to front IMO since more important groups have lower levels).This is
great. If I want the advocacy wars etc in pc.gaming or whatever I hit
C-u 5 g. Gnus then fetches this for me. But the important and correct
thing is that it doesnt fetch the less important stuff using default
"g". All fine.

The problem however here is that when starting gnus *unplugged* these
level 5 groups do not "activate" ie show the articles counts etc, even
though its local. They *are* visible however since they are
subscribed. IMO they should activate when unplugged.

If I set the gnus-activate-foreign-newsgroups to 3 to activate them in
unplugged by default then default "g" also fetches them. This is not
desired behaviour when really roaming.

Yes, when unplugged I *can* C-u 5 g to activate them, if their levels
are 5, but this step should be unnecessary.

I think this makes sense...

Re: agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

[Eric S Fraga]

Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:

> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

[...]

>> I think I do understand.  You may wish to set not only
>> gnus-activate-level but also gnus-activate-foreign-newsgroups to 5?  It
>> defaults to 4, I believe.
>
> That works yes! Wow. Thanks!  But "foreign group"? Why are they foreign
> groups? They are groups attached to nntp servers defined in select
> methods. Ye gods its complicated ;) ...

Somebody will correct me but I think /foreign/ groups refer to those
where the actual content is stored remotely (nntp, nnimap) versus
locally (nnml, nnmaildir).  I think this distinction mattered more when
connecting to the network, especially with dial-up, was a big deal?

We sometimes forget that gnus has been around for quite a long
time... although maybe not as long as some of us have been using email,
mind you (e.g. any of you remember using uucp style addresses
host1!host2!...!user? ;-)!

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1 + No Gnus v0.16

Re: agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

[Richard Riley]

Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:

> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:
>
>> That works yes! Wow. Thanks!  But "foreign group"? Why are they foreign
>> groups? They are groups attached to nntp servers defined in select
>> methods. Ye gods its complicated ;) ...
>>
>
> I spoke too soon. Yes this "activates" the groups. But it also means
> they now, when plugged, fetch using the default "g" rather than when I
> specifically WANT these less important groups using something C-u 5
> g. Theres some kind of functionality overlap between plugged, activated
> and subscribed which seems to defeatt my use case.
>
> To reiterate
>
> I have some "higher level" levels for things like gaming nntp group for
> example. Lets say level 5. Imap and some others are at level 3.
>
> I set gnus-activate-level to 3.
>
> When "plugged" hitting "g" will now only fetch for level and below (its
> back to front IMO since more important groups have lower levels).This is
> great. If I want the advocacy wars etc in pc.gaming or whatever I hit
> C-u 5 g. Gnus then fetches this for me. But the important and correct
> thing is that it doesnt fetch the less important stuff using default
> "g". All fine.
>
> The problem however here is that when starting gnus *unplugged* these
> level 5 groups do not "activate" ie show the articles counts etc, even
> though its local. They *are* visible however since they are
> subscribed. IMO they should activate when unplugged.
>
> If I set the gnus-activate-foreign-newsgroups to 3 to activate them in
> unplugged by default then default "g" also fetches them. This is not
> desired behaviour when really roaming.
>
> Yes, when unplugged I *can* C-u 5 g to activate them, if their levels
> are 5, but this step should be unnecessary.
>
> I think this makes sense...
>

The above description of usage can be distilled to this suggestion:-

All groups *belonging to agentised servers* should be active when
unplugged regardless of their level. Not when plugged since otherwise
"g" will fetch for them - and this we do not want.

Does that make sense? 

Re: agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

[Adam Sjøgren]

On Fri, 25 Mar 2011 15:58:21 +0000, Eric wrote:

> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:
>> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

> [...]

>>> I think I do understand.  You may wish to set not only
>>> gnus-activate-level but also gnus-activate-foreign-newsgroups to 5?  It
>>> defaults to 4, I believe.
>> 
>> That works yes! Wow. Thanks!  But "foreign group"? Why are they foreign
>> groups? They are groups attached to nntp servers defined in select
>> methods. Ye gods its complicated ;) ...

> Somebody will correct me but I think /foreign/ groups refer to those
> where the actual content is stored remotely (nntp, nnimap) versus
> locally (nnml, nnmaildir).

The manual says:

,----[ 10.4 Terminology - http://gnus.org/manual/gnus_366.html ]
|  native
|      Gnus will always use one method (and back end) as the native, or
|      default, way of getting news.
| 
|  foreign
|      You can also have any number of foreign groups active at the same
|      time. These are groups that use non-native non-secondary back ends
|      for getting news.
| 
|  secondary
|      Secondary back ends are somewhere half-way between being native and
|      being foreign, but they mostly act like they are native.
`----


  Best regards,

    Adam

-- 
 "This is either madness... or brilliance."                   Adam Sjøgren
 "It's remarkable how often those two traits coincide."  asjo@koldfront.dk

Re: agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

[Eric S Fraga]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

> On Fri, 25 Mar 2011 15:58:21 +0000, Eric wrote:
>
>> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:
>>> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:
>
>> [...]
>
>>>> I think I do understand.  You may wish to set not only
>>>> gnus-activate-level but also gnus-activate-foreign-newsgroups to 5?  It
>>>> defaults to 4, I believe.
>>> 
>>> That works yes! Wow. Thanks!  But "foreign group"? Why are they foreign
>>> groups? They are groups attached to nntp servers defined in select
>>> methods. Ye gods its complicated ;) ...
>
>> Somebody will correct me but I think /foreign/ groups refer to those
>> where the actual content is stored remotely (nntp, nnimap) versus
>> locally (nnml, nnmaildir).
>
> The manual says:
>
> ,----[ 10.4 Terminology - http://gnus.org/manual/gnus_366.html ]
> |  native
> |      Gnus will always use one method (and back end) as the native, or
> |      default, way of getting news.
> | 
> |  foreign
> |      You can also have any number of foreign groups active at the same
> |      time. These are groups that use non-native non-secondary back ends
> |      for getting news.
> | 
> |  secondary
> |      Secondary back ends are somewhere half-way between being native and
> |      being foreign, but they mostly act like they are native.
> `----
>
>
>   Best regards,
>
>     Adam

Adam, thanks for the pointer to the relevant place in the manual.  My
guess was basically completely wrong.  Oh well...

However, I am not sure the documentation really explains anything at
all.  It's the kind of documentation that makes sense if you already
know what it is telling you and otherwise just sounds like a circular
definition...  and, unfortunately, there are quite a few sections like
this in the gnus manual.

In any case, this definitely doesn't help me (or the OP maybe)
understand why the default activation level for native groups is 6 and
for foreign is 4; and what about secondary...?  And how any of this
relates to agents?

Have a great weekend all!

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1 + No Gnus v0.16

Re: agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

[Adam Sjøgren]

On Fri, 25 Mar 2011 21:05:42 +0000, Eric wrote:

> Adam, thanks for the pointer to the relevant place in the manual.  My
> guess was basically completely wrong.  Oh well...

> However, I am not sure the documentation really explains anything at
> all.

How did you then get to the understanding that you were wrong, then?

> It's the kind of documentation that makes sense if you already know
> what it is telling you and otherwise just sounds like a circular
> definition... and, unfortunately, there are quite a few sections like
> this in the gnus manual.

I am sure suggestions for improvements are very welcome!

What I got from reading it is that groups from servers in select-method
and secondary-select-methods are called native and other groups are
called foreign. Seems quite straightforward?

> In any case, this definitely doesn't help me (or the OP maybe)
> understand why the default activation level for native groups is 6 and
> for foreign is 4; and what about secondary...?  And how any of this
> relates to agents?

I don't use any of those thingamajigs, so I haven't got the foggiest.
Sorry I can't be of any help.


  Best regards,

    Adam

-- 
 "Ge mig en vinterdrog, ge mig allt du har                    Adam Sjøgren
  Kom nu jag är kroniskt låg, bara mörkret hörs"         asjo@koldfront.dk

Re: agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

[Richard Riley]

Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

> asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:
>
>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2011 15:58:21 +0000, Eric wrote:
>>
>>> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:
>>>> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:
>>
>>> [...]
>>
>>>>> I think I do understand.  You may wish to set not only
>>>>> gnus-activate-level but also gnus-activate-foreign-newsgroups to 5?  It
>>>>> defaults to 4, I believe.
>>>> 
>>>> That works yes! Wow. Thanks!  But "foreign group"? Why are they foreign
>>>> groups? They are groups attached to nntp servers defined in select
>>>> methods. Ye gods its complicated ;) ...
>>
>>> Somebody will correct me but I think /foreign/ groups refer to those
>>> where the actual content is stored remotely (nntp, nnimap) versus
>>> locally (nnml, nnmaildir).
>>
>> The manual says:
>>
>> ,----[ 10.4 Terminology - http://gnus.org/manual/gnus_366.html ]
>> |  native
>> |      Gnus will always use one method (and back end) as the native, or
>> |      default, way of getting news.
>> | 
>> |  foreign
>> |      You can also have any number of foreign groups active at the same
>> |      time. These are groups that use non-native non-secondary back ends
>> |      for getting news.
>> | 
>> |  secondary
>> |      Secondary back ends are somewhere half-way between being native and
>> |      being foreign, but they mostly act like they are native.
>> `----
>>
>>
>>   Best regards,
>>
>>     Adam
>
> Adam, thanks for the pointer to the relevant place in the manual.  My
> guess was basically completely wrong.  Oh well...
>
> However, I am not sure the documentation really explains anything at
> all.  It's the kind of documentation that makes sense if you already
> know what it is telling you and otherwise just sounds like a circular
> definition...  and, unfortunately, there are quite a few sections like
> this in the gnus manual.
>

This was my point as my comment about them not coming from secondary
select groups was indeed from the manual : hence the foreign group
active level variable should not have been relevant in this case. All
my nntp groups are from secondary backends.  Your comment about the
circular nature is also true : too frequently the manual describes what
the code does as opposed to what the function should do ;) <insert
"patches to manual welcome" reply as appropriate - the problem being all
too often, with something as complex as gnus, I dont have a clue as to
what it should say ;) - its only when you concentrate on an area, in
this place offline/agent usage that things become clearer from actually
using it "natively" ;)>

I'm getting strange looks in the "free wireless" lobby of the hotel now
as people tut and talk about "going outside" while I tinker with Gnus
;))

Re: agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

[Richard Riley]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

> On Fri, 25 Mar 2011 21:05:42 +0000, Eric wrote:
>
>> Adam, thanks for the pointer to the relevant place in the manual.  My
>> guess was basically completely wrong.  Oh well...
>
>> However, I am not sure the documentation really explains anything at
>> all.
>
> How did you then get to the understanding that you were wrong, then?
>
>> It's the kind of documentation that makes sense if you already know
>> what it is telling you and otherwise just sounds like a circular
>> definition... and, unfortunately, there are quite a few sections like
>> this in the gnus manual.
>
> I am sure suggestions for improvements are very welcome!
>
> What I got from reading it is that groups from servers in select-method
> and secondary-select-methods are called native and other groups are
> called foreign. Seems quite straightforward?
>

Except they the are not. Since the gnus-activate-foreign-newsgroups
applies to groups created from secondary select methods.


>> In any case, this definitely doesn't help me (or the OP maybe)
>> understand why the default activation level for native groups is 6 and
>> for foreign is 4; and what about secondary...?  And how any of this
>> relates to agents?
>
> I don't use any of those thingamajigs, so I haven't got the foggiest.
> Sorry I can't be of any help.

If you had, maybe you could understand the issue above about the foreign
groups naming convention.

>
>   Best regards,
>
>     Adam

-- 
☘ http://www.shamrockirishbar.com, http://splash-of-open-sauce.blogspot.com/ http://www.richardriley.net

Re: agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

[Adam Sjøgren]

On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 08:45:15 +0100, Richard wrote:

> asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

>> What I got from reading it is that groups from servers in select-method
>> and secondary-select-methods are called native and other groups are
>> called foreign. Seems quite straightforward?

> Except they the are not. Since the gnus-activate-foreign-newsgroups
> applies to groups created from secondary select methods.

So the manual is wrong and you have a better understanding - which puts
you in an excellent position to improve the manual. Thanks in advance!


  Best regards,

    Adam

-- 
 "Ge mig en vinterdrog, ge mig allt du har                    Adam Sjøgren
  Kom nu jag är kroniskt låg, bara mörkret hörs"         asjo@koldfront.dk

Re: agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

[Richard Riley]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

> On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 08:45:15 +0100, Richard wrote:
>
>> asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:
>
>>> What I got from reading it is that groups from servers in select-method
>>> and secondary-select-methods are called native and other groups are
>>> called foreign. Seems quite straightforward?
>
>> Except they the are not. Since the gnus-activate-foreign-newsgroups
>> applies to groups created from secondary select methods.
>
> So the manual is wrong and you have a better understanding - which puts
> you in an excellent position to improve the manual. Thanks in advance!
>
>   Best regards,
>
>     Adam


You continually mention people being confused with the manual rewriting it.

This discussion is to clarify how it is, how it should or maybe just how
to improve it. If I knew how it should and could work for the masses
perhaps I could do this. As it is I see this discussion with Eric as a
valuable "real use" exercise and discussion in honing Gnus to work
better for the end user. I dont have the solutions just on my own
limited experience so changing the manual would seem a tad premature
considering its me learning how gnus works. It never ceases to amaze me
how others use the same features. All I know is that at this minute
using agent in a cost restricted "mostly disconnected" arena its
confusing and a few things simply dont work (see multiple IMAP selection
methods mentioned earlier).

In the case above how would I correct the manual? Perhaps the code is
wrong? Perhaps the concept is wrong. I dont know. What I do know is that
its not clear and the discussion with Eric is helping to clarify end
user use cases which might lead to either bug fixes, manual changes
and/or functionality redesign.

If you can comment on that then please do.

Thanks in advance!

;)

Re: agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

[Richard Riley]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

> On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 08:45:15 +0100, Richard wrote:
>
>> asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:
>
>>> What I got from reading it is that groups from servers in select-method
>>> and secondary-select-methods are called native and other groups are
>>> called foreign. Seems quite straightforward?
>
>> Except they the are not. Since the gnus-activate-foreign-newsgroups
>> applies to groups created from secondary select methods.
>
> So the manual is wrong and you have a better understanding - which puts
> you in an excellent position to improve the manual. Thanks in advance!
>
>   Best regards,
>
>     Adam


This discussion is to clarify how it is, how it should or maybe just how
to improve it. If I knew how it should and could work for the masses
perhaps I could do this. As it is I see this discussion with Eric as a
valuable "real use" exercise and discussion in honing Gnus to work
better for the end user. I dont have the solutions just on my own
limited experience so changing the manual would seem a tad premature
considering its me learning how gnus works. It never ceases to amaze me
how others use the same features. All I know is that at this minute
using agent in a cost restricted "mostly disconnected" arena its
confusing and a few things simply dont work (see multiple IMAP selection
methods mentioned earlier).

In the case above how would I correct the manual? Perhaps the code is
wrong? Perhaps the concept is wrong. I dont know. What I do know is that
its not clear and the discussion with Eric is helping to clarify end
user use cases which might lead to either bug fixes, manual changes
and/or functionality redesign.

Possibly you have some comments relevant to the agent and activation
levels which might help?

Thanks in advance!

Re: agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

[Eric S Fraga]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

> On Fri, 25 Mar 2011 21:05:42 +0000, Eric wrote:
>
>> Adam, thanks for the pointer to the relevant place in the manual.  My
>> guess was basically completely wrong.  Oh well...
>
>> However, I am not sure the documentation really explains anything at
>> all.
>
> How did you then get to the understanding that you were wrong, then?

Ummmm, I guess the fact that there are three types of groups whereas I
was thinking of only two types...

>> It's the kind of documentation that makes sense if you already know
>> what it is telling you and otherwise just sounds like a circular
>> definition... and, unfortunately, there are quite a few sections like
>> this in the gnus manual.
>
> I am sure suggestions for improvements are very welcome!

I would be more than happy to not only make suggestions but also add
text etc.  However, the problem is I don't really understand the text
well enough to even begin adding or changing text!  Vicious cycle here
(for me).

> What I got from reading it is that groups from servers in select-method
> and secondary-select-methods are called native and other groups are
> called foreign. Seems quite straightforward?

Okay, I didn't get that from the text but I guess that makes sense.  It
still doesn't really tell me how or why the distinction is made,
especially between secondary and foreign?  How/where are the latter
actually defined?

Anyway, in my case, this distinction does not appear to be anything I
need to worry about.  And I think the OP has solved his problem, in the
sense of identifying the boundary conditions for gnus for his use case.

Thanks for the help,
eric

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1 + No Gnus v0.16

Re: agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

[Richard Riley]

Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

> asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:
>
>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2011 21:05:42 +0000, Eric wrote:
>>
>>> Adam, thanks for the pointer to the relevant place in the manual.  My
>>> guess was basically completely wrong.  Oh well...
>>
>>> However, I am not sure the documentation really explains anything at
>>> all.
>>
>> How did you then get to the understanding that you were wrong, then?
>
> Ummmm, I guess the fact that there are three types of groups whereas I
> was thinking of only two types...
>
>>> It's the kind of documentation that makes sense if you already know
>>> what it is telling you and otherwise just sounds like a circular
>>> definition... and, unfortunately, there are quite a few sections like
>>> this in the gnus manual.
>>
>> I am sure suggestions for improvements are very welcome!
>
> I would be more than happy to not only make suggestions but also add
> text etc.  However, the problem is I don't really understand the text
> well enough to even begin adding or changing text!  Vicious cycle here
> (for me).

Add me to that list ;)

>
>> What I got from reading it is that groups from servers in select-method
>> and secondary-select-methods are called native and other groups are
>> called foreign. Seems quite straightforward?
>
> Okay, I didn't get that from the text but I guess that makes sense.  It
> still doesn't really tell me how or why the distinction is made,
> especially between secondary and foreign?  How/where are the latter
> actually defined?
>
> Anyway, in my case, this distinction does not appear to be anything I
> need to worry about.  And I think the OP has solved his problem, in the
> sense of identifying the boundary conditions for gnus for his use case.
>

Just to re-iterate : I feel it makes sense to activate ALL subscribed
groups which are "agentised" since there is no network access
required. Remembering the "C u 5 g" type thing is inconvenient AND
initiates re-reads on non agent-ised groups (eg my imap groups since
agent doesnt work properly with multiple imap groups) since all non
agentised groups are considered "plugged".

Agent/Plugged/Unplugged is incredibly useful but also incredibly
complicated - even the notion of "foreign groups" means you need to know
the depths of Gnus to even begin to understand the activation
triggers. But I do feel the suggestion above makes for a more common
sense default.

Re: agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

[Richard Riley]

Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:
>
> [...]
>
>> Just to re-iterate : I feel it makes sense to activate ALL subscribed
>> groups which are "agentised" since there is no network access
>
> Actually, I wouldn't want this.  Offline, I often use a very slow laptop
> and it can take quite a while to activate all groups.  I think changing
> the levels of the groups is easy enough, once we get past the
> distinction between native/foreign/secondary groups.

Me too :  a netbook with an n550. That said you understand my issue with
a "C u 5 g" type activation which forces re-reads from non agentised
groups? Potentially very expensive when facing roaming charges.

Possibly a simple boolean customisation option.

Re: agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

[Eric S Fraga]

Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:

[...]

> Just to re-iterate : I feel it makes sense to activate ALL subscribed
> groups which are "agentised" since there is no network access

Actually, I wouldn't want this.  Offline, I often use a very slow laptop
and it can take quite a while to activate all groups.  I think changing
the levels of the groups is easy enough, once we get past the
distinction between native/foreign/secondary groups.

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1 + No Gnus v0.16

Re: agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

[Eric S Fraga]

Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:

> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:
>
>> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> Just to re-iterate : I feel it makes sense to activate ALL subscribed
>>> groups which are "agentised" since there is no network access
>>
>> Actually, I wouldn't want this.  Offline, I often use a very slow laptop
>> and it can take quite a while to activate all groups.  I think changing
>> the levels of the groups is easy enough, once we get past the
>> distinction between native/foreign/secondary groups.
>
> Me too :  a netbook with an n550. That said you understand my issue with
> a "C u 5 g" type activation which forces re-reads from non agentised
> groups? Potentially very expensive when facing roaming charges.

yes, I understand your issue with this.  

what I don't understand is why, if I am using gnus *unplugged*, doing
"C-u 5 g" actually queries any online servers as opposed to querying the
agent.  This does seem to be wrong in some way...  it doesn't bother me
because when I'm offline, I am indeed *offline* and the queries time out
immediately (with not cost incurred).

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1 + No Gnus v0.16

Re: agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

[Richard Riley]

Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:
>
>> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:
>>
>>> Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> Just to re-iterate : I feel it makes sense to activate ALL subscribed
>>>> groups which are "agentised" since there is no network access
>>>
>>> Actually, I wouldn't want this.  Offline, I often use a very slow laptop
>>> and it can take quite a while to activate all groups.  I think changing
>>> the levels of the groups is easy enough, once we get past the
>>> distinction between native/foreign/secondary groups.
>>
>> Me too :  a netbook with an n550. That said you understand my issue with
>> a "C u 5 g" type activation which forces re-reads from non agentised
>> groups? Potentially very expensive when facing roaming charges.
>
> yes, I understand your issue with this.  
>
> what I don't understand is why, if I am using gnus *unplugged*, doing
> "C-u 5 g" actually queries any online servers as opposed to querying the
> agent.  This does seem to be wrong in some way...  it doesn't bother me
> because when I'm offline, I am indeed *offline* and the queries time out
> immediately (with not cost incurred).

Gnus itself is never unplugged. Only certain servers... Heh ;) I think
there is an overlap between the meaning of the word "online" and
"activated". But I'm still not 100% sure .. and am certainly no closer
to being confident enough to offer docstring updates. As is usual with
Gnus I would bet a penny to a pound that there exists already the right
spell to make it work as I feel it should - its just a question of
someone with enough understanding of what it all means to explain it.

Re: agent/fetch only articles from certain levels

[Eric S Fraga]

Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:

> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

>> what I don't understand is why, if I am using gnus *unplugged*, doing
>> "C-u 5 g" actually queries any online servers as opposed to querying the
>> agent.  This does seem to be wrong in some way...  it doesn't bother me
>> because when I'm offline, I am indeed *offline* and the queries time out
>> immediately (with not cost incurred).
>
> Gnus itself is never unplugged. Only certain servers... Heh ;)

Ah ha. You are correct.  My confusion came from the inconsistency in the
documentation.  E.g.:

,----
| J j runs the command gnus-agent-toggle-plugged, which is an |
| interactive compiled Lisp function in `gnus-agent.el'.      |
|                                                             |
| It is bound to J j, <menu-bar> <Agent> <Toggle plugged>.    |
|                                                             |
| (gnus-agent-toggle-plugged SET-TO)                          |
|                                                             |
| Toggle whether Gnus is unplugged or not.                    |
`----

Note the last line.  However, in the info manual,

,----
|    Gnus is never really in plugged or unplugged state.  Rather, it
| applies that state to each server individually.  This means that some
| servers can be plugged while others can be unplugged.  Additionally,
| some servers can be ignored by the Agent altogether (which means that
| they're kinda like plugged always).
| 
|    So when you unplug the Agent and then wonder why is Gnus opening a
| connection to the Net, the next step to do is to look whether all
| servers are agentized.  If there is an unagentized server, you found
| the culprit.
`----

I guess this means that you need to agentise all servers to avoid
incurring costs while unplugged?  Since in my case unplugged == "really
offline", I don't have your problem with costs...

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1 + No Gnus v0.16