* Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? @ 2002-09-29 14:01 Simon Josefsson 2002-09-29 14:14 ` Karl Kleinpaste ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Simon Josefsson @ 2002-09-29 14:01 UTC (permalink / raw) How about this patch? The Lines: header seems to be deprecated even for news in RFC1036bis. Also, shouldn't Gnus generate the In-Reply-To header in the message buffer when you press R or F? The References: header is generated. Possibly neither should be generated though (and people that want to see it can use `message-generate-headers-first'). Opinions? Index: message.el =================================================================== RCS file: /usr/local/cvsroot/gnus/lisp/message.el,v retrieving revision 6.252 diff -u -p -u -w -r6.252 message.el --- message.el 2002/09/26 02:21:37 6.252 +++ message.el 2002/09/29 14:44:22 @@ -206,11 +206,11 @@ header, remove it from this list." :type '(repeat sexp)) (defcustom message-required-mail-headers - '(From Subject Date (optional . In-Reply-To) Message-ID Lines + '(From Subject Date (optional . In-Reply-To) Message-ID (optional . User-Agent)) "*Headers to be generated or prompted for when mailing a message. It is recommended that From, Date, To, Subject and Message-ID be -included. Organization, Lines and User-Agent are optional." +included. Organization and User-Agent are optional." :group 'message-mail :group 'message-headers :type '(repeat sexp)) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-29 14:01 Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? Simon Josefsson @ 2002-09-29 14:14 ` Karl Kleinpaste 2002-09-29 14:32 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-09-29 18:35 ` Russ Allbery 2002-09-29 15:14 ` Kai Großjohann 2002-12-29 15:59 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2 siblings, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Karl Kleinpaste @ 2002-09-29 14:14 UTC (permalink / raw) Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: > How about this patch? > The Lines: header seems to be deprecated even for news in RFC1036bis. Why do you want to get rid of it? What purpose does removal of a feature serve? I find line count to be very useful in *Summary* because it gives me a sense of how much babbling someone has done, and I also score up or down on line count in some groups. I always felt that the deprecation of Lines was due merely to Henry Spencer's (and perhaps Geoff Collyer's) personal bias against it, for which I have no explanation. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-29 14:14 ` Karl Kleinpaste @ 2002-09-29 14:32 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-09-29 17:08 ` Karl Kleinpaste 2002-09-29 18:35 ` Russ Allbery 1 sibling, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Simon Josefsson @ 2002-09-29 14:32 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Karl Kleinpaste <karl@charcoal.com> writes: > Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: >> How about this patch? >> The Lines: header seems to be deprecated even for news in RFC1036bis. > > Why do you want to get rid of it? What purpose does removal of a > feature serve? Well, what purpose does having a Lines: header serve? It is not a standard mail header so its presence should probably be justified. > I find line count to be very useful in *Summary* because it gives me a > sense of how much babbling someone has done, and I also score up or > down on line count in some groups. Does this feature depend on the sender sending a Lines: header? Most MUAs don't send the Lines: header, and I still get this number in the summary buffers. See my original mail which didn't include a Lines: header. > I always felt that the deprecation of Lines was due merely to Henry > Spencer's (and perhaps Geoff Collyer's) personal bias against it, for > which I have no explanation. I'm not saying we should change it for news, only mail. A possible explanation for why it should be removed could be to compare the merits of the Content-Length: mail header, but I don't know enough about news to tell if the same argument applies. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-29 14:32 ` Simon Josefsson @ 2002-09-29 17:08 ` Karl Kleinpaste 2002-09-29 17:51 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-10-02 16:46 ` Per Abrahamsen 0 siblings, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Karl Kleinpaste @ 2002-09-29 17:08 UTC (permalink / raw) Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: > Well, what purpose does having a Lines: header serve? It is not a > standard mail header so its presence should probably be justified. As opposed to Mail-Copies-To, X-Face, or X-Hashcash...? > Does this feature depend on the sender sending a Lines: header? Most > MUAs don't send the Lines: header, and I still get this number in the > summary buffers. See my original mail which didn't include a Lines: > header. If Lines were no longer generated locally, then it won't appear in one's Gcc'd copies. I just see no reason for dismantling behavior which causes no difficulty and which has the potential to be useful. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-29 17:08 ` Karl Kleinpaste @ 2002-09-29 17:51 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-09-30 1:31 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2002-10-07 21:58 ` Florian Weimer 2002-10-02 16:46 ` Per Abrahamsen 1 sibling, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Simon Josefsson @ 2002-09-29 17:51 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Karl Kleinpaste <karl@charcoal.com> writes: > Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: >> Well, what purpose does having a Lines: header serve? It is not a >> standard mail header so its presence should probably be justified. > > As opposed to Mail-Copies-To, X-Face, or X-Hashcash...? X-* is blessed by the standard to contain experimental stuff, so I don't see a problem there. Mail-Copies-To has value and even interoperates fairly well. If Lines: has value, I won't continue argue it should be removed, but I haven't understood where that value is. >> Does this feature depend on the sender sending a Lines: header? Most >> MUAs don't send the Lines: header, and I still get this number in the >> summary buffers. See my original mail which didn't include a Lines: >> header. > > If Lines were no longer generated locally, then it won't appear in > one's Gcc'd copies. What problems are caused by this? Does any writable backend depend on the Lines: header being generated by Gnus? I have disabled Lines: and GCC:ed mail to a nnml, nnfolder and nnimap and it this does not seem to cause any problems. Nnml and nnfolder adds Lines: if it does not exists, so the header do appear in GCC'd copies. I only wanted to change this in message, not in the backends. > I just see no reason for dismantling behavior which causes no > difficulty and which has the potential to be useful. OK. Since it is possible to customize, perhaps that is enough. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-29 17:51 ` Simon Josefsson @ 2002-09-30 1:31 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2002-09-30 1:57 ` Russ Allbery ` (2 more replies) 2002-10-07 21:58 ` Florian Weimer 1 sibling, 3 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 2002-09-30 1:31 UTC (permalink / raw) * Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> on Sun, 29 Sep 2002 | X-* is blessed by the standard to contain experimental stuff, so I don't | see a problem there. Mail-Copies-To has value and even interoperates | fairly well. If Lines: has value, I won't continue argue it should be | removed, but I haven't understood where that value is. The purpose of Lines is quite simple: it gives a ballpark estimate as to the size of a message, thus allowing the client the ability not to download messages that exceed a particular size. For example, POP does not have a mechanism by which it can determine the size of messages. But it can get all the headers. A POP client can grab the headers of all messages, check the Lines headers for each, and skip any messages that exceed a user-defined threshold. This is useful, for example, if you happen to be a travelling sales engineer currently somewhere in India using a cellular/gsm phone at 9600 baud to download your mail but don't want the 150MB PowerPoint presentations that your manager sent out to everyone, at least not until you get back to your office and a T1. I am not making this up. I have an SE who routinely does this. On the Usenet side of things, Gnus Agent uses Lines headers the same way, to determine if a message qualifies as "long" and does not automatically retrieve articles that exceed the "long" threshold. -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ of skin. PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ That and five bucks will get you a small coffee at Starbucks. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-30 1:31 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 2002-09-30 1:57 ` Russ Allbery 2002-09-30 19:15 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2002-09-30 3:08 ` greg andruk 2002-09-30 11:23 ` Simon Josefsson 2 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Russ Allbery @ 2002-09-30 1:57 UTC (permalink / raw) Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > For example, POP does not have a mechanism by which it can determine the > size of messages. But it can get all the headers. A POP client can > grab the headers of all messages, check the Lines headers for each, and > skip any messages that exceed a user-defined threshold. This is useful, > for example, if you happen to be a travelling sales engineer currently > somewhere in India using a cellular/gsm phone at 9600 baud to download > your mail but don't want the 150MB PowerPoint presentations that your > manager sent out to everyone, at least not until you get back to your > office and a T1. I am not making this up. I have an SE who routinely > does this. Do enough mail clients generate accurate Lines headers to make this worthwhile? > On the Usenet side of things, Gnus Agent uses Lines headers the same way, > to determine if a message qualifies as "long" and does not automatically > retrieve articles that exceed the "long" threshold. It shouldn't. It should be using overview for that information. A huge percentage of Lines headers in Usenet articles are simply completely wrong (such as only counting half of a multipart/alternative, or being calculated prior to signature appending, or simply being completely unrelated to reality). This is why USEFOR is going to remove the header completely for Usenet; for Usenet, it's worthless. Overview is required to include a line count. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-30 1:57 ` Russ Allbery @ 2002-09-30 19:15 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2002-10-01 2:11 ` Russ Allbery 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 2002-09-30 19:15 UTC (permalink / raw) * Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> on Sun, 29 Sep 2002 | Do enough mail clients generate accurate Lines headers to make this | worthwhile? I do not know. I suppose that depends on the definition of "enough". | It shouldn't. It should be using overview for that information. Overview is a feature of the NNTP client specifications. Not all news readers use NNTP. For example, a reader looking at a local spool can only get the Lines count from a header field or by grabbing the article in its entirety and counting. YMMV. -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ of skin. PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ That and five bucks will get you a small coffee at Starbucks. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-30 19:15 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 2002-10-01 2:11 ` Russ Allbery 2002-10-01 3:27 ` Stainless Steel Rat 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Russ Allbery @ 2002-10-01 2:11 UTC (permalink / raw) Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > * Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> on Sun, 29 Sep 2002 > | It shouldn't. It should be using overview for that information. > Overview is a feature of the NNTP client specifications. Not all news > readers use NNTP. This is, for all intents and purposes, no longer true. > For example, a reader looking at a local spool Essentially no one does this any more. There may be one or two people who are doing this out of a sense of nostalgia, but using NNTP to localhost is faster, more reliable, and offers considerably more features. And you have the ability to do that already if you have the news in the first place, unless you're just faking a local spool using a suck utility (and why you'd do that rather than just use an off-line reader, which does basically the same thing but a lot more reliably and with better control, escapes me). It's utterly pointless to do try to use the local spool unless you're doing it for the same reason that you'd be programming on a Commodore 64 or porting gcc to a PDP-11. Even the hard-line old Unix clients are starting to drop support for reading from a local spool. Not to mention that roughly 10% of the Lines headers seen in the wild on Usenet are completely wrong. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-01 2:11 ` Russ Allbery @ 2002-10-01 3:27 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2002-10-01 3:38 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-10-01 3:57 ` Russ Allbery 0 siblings, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 2002-10-01 3:27 UTC (permalink / raw) * Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> on Mon, 30 Sep 2002 | Not to mention that roughly 10% of the Lines headers seen in the wild on | Usenet are completely wrong. Let's just say that I do not agree with this being a valid reason for deprecating it or eliminating it entirely. Everything else, sure. This, no. -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ returned to its special container and PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ kept under refrigeration. That and five bucks will get you a small coffee at Starbucks. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-01 3:27 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 2002-10-01 3:38 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-10-01 3:57 ` Russ Allbery 1 sibling, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Simon Josefsson @ 2002-10-01 3:38 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: (ding) Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > * Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> on Mon, 30 Sep 2002 > | Not to mention that roughly 10% of the Lines headers seen in the wild on > | Usenet are completely wrong. > > Let's just say that I do not agree with this being a valid reason for > deprecating it or eliminating it entirely. Everything else, sure. This, > no. As I wanted to remove the header for mail only, and not news which was discussed here, are there still any objections to applying the patch? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-01 3:27 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2002-10-01 3:38 ` Simon Josefsson @ 2002-10-01 3:57 ` Russ Allbery 1 sibling, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Russ Allbery @ 2002-10-01 3:57 UTC (permalink / raw) Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > * Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> on Mon, 30 Sep 2002 > | Not to mention that roughly 10% of the Lines headers seen in the wild on > | Usenet are completely wrong. > Let's just say that I do not agree with this being a valid reason for > deprecating it or eliminating it entirely. Everything else, sure. This, > no. The line of argument went like this on USEFOR, and I think the argument is valid: We looked around to see where Lines headers come from. We found that many of them are created by clients or the original server, that many servers pass them on unchanged, and that some servers always replace them locally. We also found that essentially no one enforces their accuracy (although they may be replaced locally). We thought about how to write up a specification for the Lines header compatible with existing practice, and in order to make it useful, we would have to mandate that each server generate its own and store it in the article. Generation of headers by the server is nasty; Xref already requires special-case code in the news server, and adding another header requires more special-case code. Plus it means that there's more of the article that may mutate as it passes around the net, which is bad except where it's unavoidable (like Path and Xref). So then we started looking at whether it really was worth fixing. The information is completely redundant with information in overview, which on most servers is accurate whereas the header is not guaranteed to be. We then looked at the Lines headers in the wild, and found that they were frequently so wildly inaccurate as to be worthless for any sort of filtering; no property at all can be reliably assumed about an article based on its Lines header. So standardization of the header seemed pointless; it would just add additional redundant information, when we could encourage people to use overview or count lines themselves if they really want that information and can't use NNTP. Anyone using the header right now already is having problems, due to the frequent inaccuracy of the header. The current existing practice was such a disaster that a lot of work would have to be done to make the header reliable, and that effort seemed wasted. We then considered just leaving it alone and not mentioning it at all, but the disadvantage of that is that without any sort of clear statement, people assume all sorts of cargo-cult things about the Lines header just like they do now. The reason why the current practice is such a mess is because lots of different software authors have assumed lots of different things about what the header even means. So leaving the situation without any documentation would just continue the confusion, and part of the goal of standardization is to clean up areas like that. So we made the decision to formally deprecate it and recommend that people just stop supporting it. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-30 1:31 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2002-09-30 1:57 ` Russ Allbery @ 2002-09-30 3:08 ` greg andruk 2002-09-30 19:17 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2002-09-30 11:23 ` Simon Josefsson 2 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: greg andruk @ 2002-09-30 3:08 UTC (permalink / raw) Stainless Steel Rat wrote: > For example, POP does not have a mechanism by which it can determine the > size of messages. ??? In POP3, LIST returns the size of each message, and STAT returns the total for the inbox. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-30 3:08 ` greg andruk @ 2002-09-30 19:17 ` Stainless Steel Rat 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 2002-09-30 19:17 UTC (permalink / raw) * greg andruk <gja@meowing.net> on Sun, 29 Sep 2002 | ??? In POP3, LIST returns the size of each message, and STAT returns the | total for the inbox. Y'know, you are correct. I had forgotten that. -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ head. That and five bucks will get you a small coffee at Starbucks. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-30 1:31 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2002-09-30 1:57 ` Russ Allbery 2002-09-30 3:08 ` greg andruk @ 2002-09-30 11:23 ` Simon Josefsson 2 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Simon Josefsson @ 2002-09-30 11:23 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: (ding) Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > * Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> on Sun, 29 Sep 2002 > | X-* is blessed by the standard to contain experimental stuff, so I don't > | see a problem there. Mail-Copies-To has value and even interoperates > | fairly well. If Lines: has value, I won't continue argue it should be > | removed, but I haven't understood where that value is. > > The purpose of Lines is quite simple: it gives a ballpark estimate as to > the size of a message, thus allowing the client the ability not to download > messages that exceed a particular size. But it can't be used reliably since very few MUAs generate it. > For example, POP does not have a mechanism by which it can determine the > size of messages. POP3 has. > But it can get all the headers. A POP client can grab the headers > of all messages, check the Lines headers for each, and skip any > messages that exceed a user-defined threshold. This is useful, for > example, if you happen to be a travelling sales engineer currently > somewhere in India using a cellular/gsm phone at 9600 baud to > download your mail but don't want the 150MB PowerPoint presentations > that your manager sent out to everyone, at least not until you get > back to your office and a T1. I am not making this up. I have an > SE who routinely does this. Is the manager who send 150MB powerpoint presentations using Gnus? I strongly doubt Outlook sends a Lines: header in mail. > On the Usenet side of things, Gnus Agent uses Lines headers the same way, > to determine if a message qualifies as "long" and does not automatically > retrieve articles that exceed the "long" threshold. No, the agent is using NOV information. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-29 17:51 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-09-30 1:31 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 2002-10-07 21:58 ` Florian Weimer 2002-10-07 23:20 ` Simon Josefsson 1 sibling, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Florian Weimer @ 2002-10-07 21:58 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: > X-* is blessed by the standard to contain experimental stuff, X-headers are no longer part of RFC 2822. Intially, I thought this was silly, but it makes sense (think of X-No-Archive etc.). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-07 21:58 ` Florian Weimer @ 2002-10-07 23:20 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-10-09 14:04 ` Per Abrahamsen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Simon Josefsson @ 2002-10-07 23:20 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de> writes: > Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: > >> X-* is blessed by the standard to contain experimental stuff, > > X-headers are no longer part of RFC 2822. Intially, I thought this > was silly, but it makes sense (think of X-No-Archive etc.). Ouch. I find it somewhat disappointing that this isn't even mentioned in 2822, as 822 says that X- will never be used by standards and is a protected namespace. This breaks backwards compatibility. Sigh. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-07 23:20 ` Simon Josefsson @ 2002-10-09 14:04 ` Per Abrahamsen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 2002-10-09 14:04 UTC (permalink / raw) Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: > Ouch. I find it somewhat disappointing that this isn't even mentioned > in 2822, as 822 says that X- will never be used by standards and is a > protected namespace. This breaks backwards compatibility. Sigh. The problem is that many people interpreted it the other way, that any non-standard headers *must* start with an "X-". Combined the promise above, it made it impossible to standardize experimental headers. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-29 17:08 ` Karl Kleinpaste 2002-09-29 17:51 ` Simon Josefsson @ 2002-10-02 16:46 ` Per Abrahamsen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 2002-10-02 16:46 UTC (permalink / raw) Karl Kleinpaste <karl@charcoal.com> writes: > Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: >> Well, what purpose does having a Lines: header serve? It is not a >> standard mail header so its presence should probably be justified. > > As opposed to Mail-Copies-To, X-Face, or X-Hashcash...? They are not generated by default. I don't think anyone object to the user being able to ask for a Lines header to be generated, it is the default that is open to discussion. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-29 14:14 ` Karl Kleinpaste 2002-09-29 14:32 ` Simon Josefsson @ 2002-09-29 18:35 ` Russ Allbery 2002-09-29 18:51 ` Michael Cook 1 sibling, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Russ Allbery @ 2002-09-29 18:35 UTC (permalink / raw) Karl Kleinpaste <karl@charcoal.com> writes: > Why do you want to get rid of it? What purpose does removal of a > feature serve? It saves pointless work and a small amount of article size, and it makes it less likely that news readers will get confused by incorrect Lines headers. The header is completely, 100% worthless. > I find line count to be very useful in *Summary* because it gives me a > sense of how much babbling someone has done, and I also score up or > down on line count in some groups. All that information comes from the overview data, which is guaranteed to be correct. There's no such guarantee for the Lines header, and you'll still be able to do all these things without that header. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-29 18:35 ` Russ Allbery @ 2002-09-29 18:51 ` Michael Cook 2002-09-29 19:45 ` Russ Allbery 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Michael Cook @ 2002-09-29 18:51 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: > The header is completely, 100% worthless. i think the original intention was that you could get an indication of how big the article is without having to examine the body. m. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-29 18:51 ` Michael Cook @ 2002-09-29 19:45 ` Russ Allbery 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Russ Allbery @ 2002-09-29 19:45 UTC (permalink / raw) Michael Cook <michael@waxrat.com> writes: > Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: >> The header is completely, 100% worthless. > i think the original intention was that you could get an indication > of how big the article is without having to examine the body. Yes, but this was completely obsoleted by overview, which does the same thing. (Lines is a purely Usenet thing; it was never an e-mail thing that I've ever heard apart from some e-mail clients picking it up from Usenet.) -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-29 14:01 Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? Simon Josefsson 2002-09-29 14:14 ` Karl Kleinpaste @ 2002-09-29 15:14 ` Kai Großjohann 2002-09-29 16:59 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-12-29 15:59 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2002-09-29 15:14 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: > Also, shouldn't Gnus generate the In-Reply-To header in the message > buffer when you press R or F? The References: header is generated. > Possibly neither should be generated though (and people that want to > see it can use `message-generate-headers-first'). Opinions? IIUC, the In-Reply-To header contains a pointer to just one message, whereas the References header contains pointers to many messages. With the multiple messages, Gnus can fill gaps in the threading. I like the filling-gaps feature. Unless I misunderstood something, I vote for keeping References. kai -- ~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn (Frank Nobis) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-29 15:14 ` Kai Großjohann @ 2002-09-29 16:59 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-09-29 20:15 ` Kai Großjohann 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Simon Josefsson @ 2002-09-29 16:59 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes: > Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: > >> Also, shouldn't Gnus generate the In-Reply-To header in the message >> buffer when you press R or F? The References: header is generated. >> Possibly neither should be generated though (and people that want to >> see it can use `message-generate-headers-first'). Opinions? > > IIUC, the In-Reply-To header contains a pointer to just one message, > whereas the References header contains pointers to many messages. > With the multiple messages, Gnus can fill gaps in the threading. I > like the filling-gaps feature. > > Unless I misunderstood something, I vote for keeping References. I wasn't clear -- I wanted to remove Lines: completely for mail, but the In-Reply-To/References question was only if they were to be displayed in the message buffer by default. Currently, References: is shown in the message buffer when you press F but In-Reply-To: is not, which is rather confusing. Both headers will be present in the sent message. I wanted to make the behaviour the same, either both In-Reply-To and References: are shown when you press F or they are not shown. They should both still be added to outgoing mail, of course. The reason is that I often have a habit of pressing R or F and then removing the References: line and change Subject in order to start a new thread. This won't work well since In-Reply-To: is automatically added when the message is sent though. Either both headers should be shown by default, or none and I will have to use `message-generate-headers-first'. I vote for not showing References: by default. People that care about the header (very few I think) can frob m-g-h-f. What do you think? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-29 16:59 ` Simon Josefsson @ 2002-09-29 20:15 ` Kai Großjohann 2002-09-29 20:21 ` Jorgen Schaefer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2002-09-29 20:15 UTC (permalink / raw) Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: > I wasn't clear -- I wanted to remove Lines: completely for mail, but > the In-Reply-To/References question was only if they were to be > displayed in the message buffer by default. Currently, References: is > shown in the message buffer when you press F but In-Reply-To: is not, > which is rather confusing. Both headers will be present in the sent > message. I wanted to make the behaviour the same, either both > In-Reply-To and References: are shown when you press F or they are not > shown. They should both still be added to outgoing mail, of course. Ah, sorry for my misunderstanding. Yes, I also have users who find the header confusing. But I think that showing References was done on purpose: sometimes the header can get long, then users can delete part of it. But maybe these days the References header is shortened automatically, so that this is not an argument any more. Let's generate References on sending, too. kai -- ~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn (Frank Nobis) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-29 20:15 ` Kai Großjohann @ 2002-09-29 20:21 ` Jorgen Schaefer 2002-09-29 20:30 ` Simon Josefsson 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Jorgen Schaefer @ 2002-09-29 20:21 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes: > Let's generate References on sending, too. I'd prefer to really see *all* non-default headers I'm including in my message when pressing F... That way, I can edit or remove them if I want to. It's not really nice to the user to do a lot of behind-the-stage-magic... Greetings, -- Jorgen -- ((email . "forcer@forcix.cx") (www . "http://www.forcix.cx/") (gpg . "1024D/028AF63C") (irc . "nick forcer on IRCnet")) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-29 20:21 ` Jorgen Schaefer @ 2002-09-29 20:30 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-09-29 21:43 ` Jorgen Schaefer 2002-09-30 12:03 ` Clemens Fischer 0 siblings, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Simon Josefsson @ 2002-09-29 20:30 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Jorgen Schaefer <forcer@forcix.cx> writes: > Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes: > >> Let's generate References on sending, too. > > I'd prefer to really see *all* non-default headers I'm including > in my message when pressing F... That way, I can edit or remove > them if I want to. It's not really nice to the user to do a lot of > behind-the-stage-magic... Then you want to frob `message-generate-headers-first'. Is this OK, or do you still want to see all headers by default? I think most people don't have or want to see the cruft. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-29 20:30 ` Simon Josefsson @ 2002-09-29 21:43 ` Jorgen Schaefer 2002-09-30 12:03 ` Clemens Fischer 1 sibling, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Jorgen Schaefer @ 2002-09-29 21:43 UTC (permalink / raw) Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: > Jorgen Schaefer <forcer@forcix.cx> writes: > > > Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes: > > > >> Let's generate References on sending, too. > > > > I'd prefer to really see *all* non-default headers I'm including > > in my message when pressing F... That way, I can edit or remove > > them if I want to. It's not really nice to the user to do a lot of > > behind-the-stage-magic... > > Then you want to frob `message-generate-headers-first'. Is this OK, > or do you still want to see all headers by default? I think most > people don't have or want to see the cruft. Sounds good to me. I didn't know about that variable :) Thanks! Then it really doesn't make sense to have a seperate case for References... Greetings, -- Jorgen -- ((email . "forcer@forcix.cx") (www . "http://www.forcix.cx/") (gpg . "1024D/028AF63C") (irc . "nick forcer on IRCnet")) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-29 20:30 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-09-29 21:43 ` Jorgen Schaefer @ 2002-09-30 12:03 ` Clemens Fischer 2002-09-30 14:19 ` Kai Großjohann 2002-09-30 14:43 ` Simon Josefsson 1 sibling, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Clemens Fischer @ 2002-09-30 12:03 UTC (permalink / raw) Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: > Then you want to frob `message-generate-headers-first'. Is this OK, > or do you still want to see all headers by default? I think most > people don't have or want to see the cruft. i have message-generate-headers-first set, but i don't get to see _all_ headers. i would like to be able to see every header generated on my behalf, customizable using a list in this header, for example. clemens ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-30 12:03 ` Clemens Fischer @ 2002-09-30 14:19 ` Kai Großjohann 2002-09-30 14:43 ` Simon Josefsson 1 sibling, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2002-09-30 14:19 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Clemens Fischer <ino@despammed.com> writes: > i have message-generate-headers-first set, but i don't get to see > _all_ headers. i would like to be able to see every header generated > on my behalf, customizable using a list in this header, for example. Yes, allowing message-generate-headers-first to be a list is a good idea. Any takers? kai -- ~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn (Frank Nobis) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-30 12:03 ` Clemens Fischer 2002-09-30 14:19 ` Kai Großjohann @ 2002-09-30 14:43 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-09-30 22:04 ` Clemens Fischer ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Simon Josefsson @ 2002-09-30 14:43 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Clemens Fischer <ino@despammed.com> writes: > Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: > >> Then you want to frob `message-generate-headers-first'. Is this OK, >> or do you still want to see all headers by default? I think most >> people don't have or want to see the cruft. > > i have message-generate-headers-first set, but i don't get to see > _all_ headers. Which headers aren't shown? > i would like to be able to see every header generated on my behalf, > customizable using a list in this header, for example. I like Kai's suggestion of making the variable be a list of headers to generate (nil and t would still be valid choices). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-30 14:43 ` Simon Josefsson @ 2002-09-30 22:04 ` Clemens Fischer 2002-10-01 0:22 ` Josh Huber 2002-10-01 11:06 ` Kai Großjohann 2002-10-02 4:41 ` Dan Christensen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Clemens Fischer @ 2002-09-30 22:04 UTC (permalink / raw) Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: > Clemens Fischer <ino@despammed.com> writes: > >> i have message-generate-headers-first set, but i don't get to see >> _all_ headers. > > Which headers aren't shown? the Mail-Followup-To header is of the most important to me. i have all the settings in my setup to generate it, yet it seems it is generated _after_ editing the message. as this header is very important, i let qmail generate one, too, but it wouldn't if it saw one when handed the message. i know there are headers which making doesn't make sense before the message is sent, but when replying or fup'ing, there's set of headers with a fixed meaning in the context, and those should be shown. then the references: i get to see them, but when i actually compose a message, i do not want to see them. configuring all this as a simple list is good, and if i can have them in a certain order and with certain faces, i'll be happy. clemens ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-30 22:04 ` Clemens Fischer @ 2002-10-01 0:22 ` Josh Huber 2002-10-01 9:54 ` Clemens Fischer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Josh Huber @ 2002-10-01 0:22 UTC (permalink / raw) Clemens Fischer <ino@despammed.com> writes: > the Mail-Followup-To header is of the most important to me. i have > all the settings in my setup to generate it, yet it seems it is > generated _after_ editing the message. as this header is very > important, i let qmail generate one, too, but it wouldn't if it saw > one when handed the message. MFT is *supposed* to be generated at send-time. It's based on the actual recipients of the message, not the recipients when you happened to create the followup. http://cr.yp.to/proto/replyto.html -- Josh Huber ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-01 0:22 ` Josh Huber @ 2002-10-01 9:54 ` Clemens Fischer 2002-10-01 10:45 ` Kai Großjohann ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Clemens Fischer @ 2002-10-01 9:54 UTC (permalink / raw) Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> writes: > MFT is *supposed* to be generated at send-time. It's based on the > actual recipients of the message, not the recipients when you happened > to create the followup. you mean this differs after i edited it. and i think i would like to be able to set this value. eg. i use a qmail-followup-to file to generate the MFT from the recipients. qmail automatically compares the addresses in To and Cc to a list of emails in this file and generates the MFT if one of them appears in that list, but _with all values_ in To and Cc. this sounds reasonable on first sight, but it may well be that i beeing the sender of some message already know that some of these addresses wouldn't want a followup (copies of outgoing email needed locally, for example). whatever: i simply want to be able to edit that header, or leave it alone, or let it be generated automatically, and i don't see why i shouldn't mention it when you asked. here's the list of headers i'd like to see. From: Subject: Date: Message-ID: Sender: for envelope info In-Reply-To: Mail-Followup-To: Mail-Copies-To: Content-Type: to see what characterset/language the OP expects Path: Lines: if it is "correct enough" Reply-To: X-headers these are in case i want to complain X-Complaints-To: X-Report-Spam: NNTP-Posting-Date: User-Agent: clemens ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-01 9:54 ` Clemens Fischer @ 2002-10-01 10:45 ` Kai Großjohann 2002-10-02 16:52 ` Paul Jarc 2002-10-01 14:05 ` Josh Huber ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2002-10-01 10:45 UTC (permalink / raw) Clemens Fischer <ino@despammed.com> writes: > you mean this differs after i edited it. and i think i would like to > be able to set this value. eg. i use a qmail-followup-to file to > generate the MFT from the recipients. qmail automatically compares > the addresses in To and Cc to a list of emails in this file and > generates the MFT if one of them appears in that list, but _with all > values_ in To and Cc. Gnus generates an MFT header which contains all To/Cc/From address, minus the following: - addresses that were excluded in the MFT header of the original message you're following up to - message-subscribed-addresses and/or message-subscribed-address-file, message-subscribed-address-functions, gnus-parameter-subscribed-alist, and possibly other variables I presume that this is the behavior you really want, so... kai -- ~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn (Frank Nobis) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-01 10:45 ` Kai Großjohann @ 2002-10-02 16:52 ` Paul Jarc 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2002-10-02 16:52 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) wrote: > Gnus generates an MFT header which contains all To/Cc/From address, > minus the following: > > - addresses that were excluded in the MFT header of the original > message you're following up to Actually, if the original message had MFT, then that list is used for the new message's initial To/Cc list. Then the new MFT contains all the new To/Cc addresses. > - message-subscribed-addresses and/or message-subscribed-address-file, > message-subscribed-address-functions, > gnus-parameter-subscribed-alist, and possibly other variables Those aren't excluded from MFT. They're used to determine whether to generate MFT at all. paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-01 9:54 ` Clemens Fischer 2002-10-01 10:45 ` Kai Großjohann @ 2002-10-01 14:05 ` Josh Huber 2002-10-01 18:12 ` Clemens Fischer 2002-10-02 16:49 ` Paul Jarc 2002-10-02 18:48 ` Reiner Steib 3 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Josh Huber @ 2002-10-01 14:05 UTC (permalink / raw) Clemens Fischer <ino@despammed.com> writes: > you mean this differs after i edited it. and i think i would like > to be able to set this value. eg. i use a qmail-followup-to file to > generate the MFT from the recipients. qmail automatically compares > the addresses in To and Cc to a list of emails in this file and > generates the MFT if one of them appears in that list, but _with all > values_ in To and Cc. This is exactly what Gnus does. > this sounds reasonable on first sight, but it may well be that i > beeing the sender of some message already know that some of these > addresses wouldn't want a followup (copies of outgoing email needed > locally, for example). whatever: i simply want to be able to edit > that header, or leave it alone, or let it be generated automatically, > and i don't see why i shouldn't mention it when you asked. And, this is also what Gnus does. Gnus will not overwrite a MFT header which is already present in the message buffer. If you want to generate one for editing, use C-c C-f C-a (message-gen-unsubscribed-mft) If you want to specify what addresses are "subscribed" you have many options (of course, this is gnus after all :) message-subscribed-address-file - A file containing addresses the user is subscribed to. message-subscribed-address-functions - Specifies functions for determining list subscription. message-subscribed-addresses - Specifies a list of addresses the user is subscribed to. message-subscribed-regexps - Specifies a list of addresses the user is subscribed to. If this is not flexible enough for you, please say how you would like it changed... -- Josh Huber ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-01 14:05 ` Josh Huber @ 2002-10-01 18:12 ` Clemens Fischer 2002-10-02 18:38 ` Paul Jarc 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Clemens Fischer @ 2002-10-01 18:12 UTC (permalink / raw) Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> writes: > And, this is also what Gnus does. Gnus will not overwrite a MFT > header which is already present in the message buffer. > > If you want to generate one for editing, use C-c C-f C-a > (message-gen-unsubscribed-mft) > > If you want to specify what addresses are "subscribed" you have many > options (of course, this is gnus after all :) > > message-subscribed-address-file > message-subscribed-address-functions > message-subscribed-addresses > message-subscribed-regexps ok, i've experimented with the above, but never saw a correct MFT in my outgoing messages. what worries me more is kai's statement about gnus generating the MFT minus the entries in m-s-*, specifically message-subscribed-address-file. did i get this really wrong? i have now compiled a file qmailmftfile used in the uppercase environment variable of the same name for qmail, and this file is also set as the value for m-s-a-file. there's one complete, fully qualified email address per line of this file, which contains nothing else and no holes. is this correct? > If this is not flexible enough for you, please say how you would like > it changed... i'm not sure, it even seems overkill. at first i thought i could simply use the regular expressions describing the subscribed addresses i had used for mutt, so this one, big regex was the value of m-s-regexps. then, after checking the code, i also used m-s-addresses and finally added the file. i'm not using the regexes anymore. clemens ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-01 18:12 ` Clemens Fischer @ 2002-10-02 18:38 ` Paul Jarc 2002-10-03 0:06 ` mail-followup-to, was " Clemens Fischer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2002-10-02 18:38 UTC (permalink / raw) Clemens Fischer <ino@despammed.com> wrote: > ok, i've experimented with the above, but never saw a correct MFT in > my outgoing messages. This message of yours had no MFT. Can you post the configuration you had at the time? I have this in my .emacs: (setq message-subscribed-regexps (gnus-find-subscribed-addresses)) But message-subscribed-regexps was nil just now. Do I have to start Gnus before g-f-s-a will work? > what worries me more is kai's statement about gnus generating the > MFT minus the entries in m-s-*, specifically > message-subscribed-address-file. did i get this really wrong? No, Kai did. > i have now compiled a file qmailmftfile used in the uppercase > environment variable of the same name for qmail, and this file is also > set as the value for m-s-a-file. there's one complete, fully > qualified email address per line of this file, which contains nothing > else and no holes. is this correct? Yes. > at first i thought i could simply use the regular expressions > describing the subscribed addresses i had used for mutt, so this > one, big regex was the value of m-s-regexps. That variable's value should be a list, even if there is only one regexp in the list. paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* mail-followup-to, was Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-02 18:38 ` Paul Jarc @ 2002-10-03 0:06 ` Clemens Fischer 2002-10-03 16:13 ` Paul Jarc 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Clemens Fischer @ 2002-10-03 0:06 UTC (permalink / raw) prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes: > This message of yours had no MFT. Can you post the configuration you > had at the time? (setq ;message-subscribed-address-file "/var/spott/mailinglists" message-subscribed-address-file "/var/qmail/control/qmailmftfile" ;; !!!! throws stringp error on posting? M-x toggle-debug-on-error ;message-subscribed-regexps '( ; "beta-test" ; "bitchx" ; "bsd-questions" ; "fetchmail-friends" ; "freebsd-gnats-submit" ; "freebsd-jobs" ; "webreference-update-text" ;) message-subscribed-addresses '( "cryptlib@mbsks.franken.de" "info@dgob.de" "w3m-dev-en@mi.med.tohoku.ac.jp" ) ;message-subscribed-address-functions nil ; '(gnus-find-subscribed-addresses) message-use-mail-followup-to 'use ; 'ask message-make-forward-subject-function '(message-forward-subject-fwd) ; -or- message-forward-subject-author-subject message-wash-forwarded-subjects t message-forward-before-signature nil ;message-wide-reply-confirm-recipients t ) the number of entries in the lists is much higher, and i had overlooked message-subscribed-regexps beeing a list of regexex, but this variable was commented out anyway. note that ding@gnus.org wasn't in qmailfmtfile until today, so i must check this some other way. btw, i'm not sure how to check if valid MFTs are generated! clemens ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: mail-followup-to, was Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-03 0:06 ` mail-followup-to, was " Clemens Fischer @ 2002-10-03 16:13 ` Paul Jarc 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2002-10-03 16:13 UTC (permalink / raw) Clemens Fischer <ino@despammed.com> wrote: > note that ding@gnus.org wasn't in qmailfmtfile until today Ok, then it makes sense that your past messages had no MFT. But this message still has no MFT. (I'm assuming you want to set MFT for the ding list; do you?) Ah - you're posting via NNTP on gmane, right? So there is no To/Cc field containing "ding@gnus.org", so no MFT will be generated. If you send messages via mail instead (regardless of how you read them), and if you have the ding address in your mft file, then Gnus should produce MFT. paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-01 9:54 ` Clemens Fischer 2002-10-01 10:45 ` Kai Großjohann 2002-10-01 14:05 ` Josh Huber @ 2002-10-02 16:49 ` Paul Jarc 2002-10-02 19:44 ` [despammed] " clemens fischer 2002-10-02 18:48 ` Reiner Steib 3 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2002-10-02 16:49 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Clemens Fischer <ino@despammed.com> wrote: > you mean this differs after i edited it. and i think i would like to > be able to set this value. eg. i use a qmail-followup-to file to > generate the MFT from the recipients. qmail automatically compares > the addresses in To and Cc to a list of emails in this file and > generates the MFT if one of them appears in that list, but _with all > values_ in To and Cc. Gnus does the same. But suppose MFT were shown in the message buffer before you sent the message. Also suppose that you change the To/Cc fields. Now you probably want MFT to be changed as well. But MFT won't be regenereated, because there's no way to distinguish this old, automatic MFT from a manual MFT you supplied yourself. The only way to make the generated MFT be correct is for it not to be shown before you send the message. > this sounds reasonable on first sight, but it may well be that i > beeing the sender of some message already know that some of these > addresses wouldn't want a followup (copies of outgoing email needed > locally, for example). Then you want to remove them from To/Cc, not just MFT. (setq message-hierarchical-addresses '(("list@address" "subscriber1@address" ...) ...)) > Sender: for envelope info This header field is not necessarily the same as the SMTP envelope sender address. paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: [despammed] Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-02 16:49 ` Paul Jarc @ 2002-10-02 19:44 ` clemens fischer 2002-10-02 20:25 ` Paul Jarc 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: clemens fischer @ 2002-10-02 19:44 UTC (permalink / raw) prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes: > automatic MFT from a manual MFT you supplied yourself. The only way > to make the generated MFT be correct is for it not to be shown before > you send the message. well, i'm using MFT as generated by a recent Oort right now, and i had to edit the generated To, because it was wrong. gnus saw my email and ding@gnus.org, deleted my own and left me with a buffer carrying a To header to a mailinglist which i'm not subscribed to. i read ding on gmane, that's all. now gnus won't find ding@gnus in the MFT-list, so it won't generate a MFT, although i'd like it to. your statement "The only way to make the generated MFT be correct is for it not to be shown before you send the message." is extreme in that it hints in either me beeing an idiot or gnus knowing better. my position is this: show the MFT on answers in general. in most cases gnus knows enough before sending to get it right. the MFT would have to be changed if To or Cc had changed. let it be configurable: (i) generate MFT like it is now, calculated on the To/Cc and a list of subscribed email-lists, (ii) always use the MFT as set by the user. maybe we could use an additional X-Gnus-MFT header instead of the MFT itself. gnus displays and presets this header based on To/Cc. the configuration takes care of the actual MFT used. all this on replies. for starting a new thread: if X-Gnus-MFT is left blank by the user, gnus is to generate the MFT as usual, if it isn't blank, override the magic. you seem to think that it's not worth the trouble with the risk of users running misconfigured software or making errors. and i wish i had a choice. btw: i'm still not subscribed, but i don't know what will happen (is ding members-only?). only thing i know is that you will get this message, although you specifically wanted it on the list. >> this sounds reasonable on first sight, but it may well be that i >> beeing the sender of some message already know that some of these >> addresses wouldn't want a followup (copies of outgoing email needed >> locally, for example). > > Then you want to remove them from To/Cc, not just MFT. > (setq message-hierarchical-addresses > '(("list@address" "subscriber1@address" ...) > ...)) oh! i didn't know about this tweakable, thanks. it doesn't solve my problems 100%, but i'm getting closer :) >> Sender: for envelope info > > This header field is not necessarily the same as the SMTP envelope > sender address. yes. i should have written it the other way around: "for envelope info: one of Sender, Return-Path etc., checked in this order". i wish RFC-2822 had a mandatory field with envelope information in it. clemens ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: [despammed] Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-02 19:44 ` [despammed] " clemens fischer @ 2002-10-02 20:25 ` Paul Jarc 2002-10-02 23:16 ` Clemens Fischer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2002-10-02 20:25 UTC (permalink / raw) "clemens fischer" <ino-e1f066c1@spotteswoode.de.eu.org> wrote: > well, i'm using MFT as generated by a recent Oort right now, and i had > to edit the generated To, because it was wrong. gnus saw my email and > ding@gnus.org, deleted my own and left me with a buffer carrying a To > header to a mailinglist which i'm not subscribed to. My previous message was addressed as: To: Clemens Fischer <ino@despammed.com> Cc: ding@gnus.org So you're saying you started to compose a reply to that message, and the initial message buffer had only: To: ding@gnus.org Is that what happened? That seems fine to me. Anyway, this has to do with how Gnus handles MFT in incoming messages, which is completely separate from generating MFT for outgoing messages. > i read ding on gmane, that's all. I don't think that matters. > now gnus won't find ding@gnus in the MFT-list, so > it won't generate a MFT, although i'd like it to. Why don't you add "ding@gnus.org" to message-subscribed-addresses? > your statement "The only way to make the generated MFT be correct is > for it not to be shown before you send the message." is extreme in > that it hints in either me beeing an idiot or gnus knowing better. I don't see how you read that into it. I didn't mean it that way. > my position is this: show the MFT on answers in general. I just don't see the point. What information are you really looking for? If you want to know what the contents of the generated MFT will be, you can just look at To and Cc. If you want to know whether MFT will be generated at all, then that might be useful information that could be added to the initial message buffer, but it could be done in a different way that would not cause a wrong MFT to be sent. E.g., a field could be added like: X-Gnus-Make-MFT-For: ding@gnus.org This would mean that that address (which was in the initial To/Cc) would cause Gnus to generate MFT. So you would know that as long as you don't remove that address from To/Cc, Gnus will generate MFT. Then when you actually send the message, this field would be removed. It's just there for your information during the editing of the message. > the MFT would have to be changed if To or Cc had changed. let it be > configurable: > (i) generate MFT like it is now, calculated on the To/Cc and a list of > subscribed email-lists, > (ii) always use the MFT as set by the user. Neither of those does what I want. I want the current behavior: use my MFT if I add one myself; otherwise generate one based on To/Cc if I'm subscribed to one of those addresses. AFAICT, what you want is not different behavior, but just more information during message editing. So let's provide that information without changing the behavior. > maybe we could use an additional X-Gnus-MFT header instead of the MFT > itself. gnus displays and presets this header based on To/Cc. the > configuration takes care of the actual MFT used. > > all this on replies. for starting a new thread: The behavior is supposed to be the same for both cases: MFT for outgoing messages (if autogenerated at all) is copied from To/Cc. So if X-Gnus-MFT were to be generated, it would be based on the initial To/Cc list. But that list can be set in many different ways; MFT on an incoming message is just one of them. The only interaction between incoming MFT and outgoing MFT is that the incoming MFT, if present, specifies the initial To/Cc list. > if X-Gnus-MFT is left blank by the user, gnus is to generate the MFT > as usual, if it isn't blank, override the magic. That's how MFT works now (if by "blank" you mean "nonexistent"). > you seem to think that it's not worth the trouble with the risk of > users running misconfigured software or making errors. It's not a matter of misconfiguration. Adding MFT to the initial message buffer makes it easier to send a wrong MFT by accident. You could change the To/Cc list. If you do, who will change MFT to match? Gnus can't, because it's not smart enough to know whether the MFT in the buffer is what you want; it has to assume you did not make a mistake. But you could make a mistake, by forgetting to update MFT. > (is ding members-only?). I don't think so. > i wish RFC-2822 had a mandatory field with envelope information in > it. It wouldn't be trustworthy if it were set by the sender. As long as your own receiving MTA adds those fields (e.g., Return-Path and Delivered-To for qmail), does it really matter whether they're required? paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: [despammed] Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-02 20:25 ` Paul Jarc @ 2002-10-02 23:16 ` Clemens Fischer 2002-10-03 16:30 ` Paul Jarc 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Clemens Fischer @ 2002-10-02 23:16 UTC (permalink / raw) prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes: > My previous message was addressed as: > To: Clemens Fischer <ino@despammed.com> > Cc: ding@gnus.org > > So you're saying you started to compose a reply to that message, and > the initial message buffer had only: > To: ding@gnus.org > Is that what happened? That seems fine to me. ... unless you aren't subscribed. never mind: to my astonishment ding is bold enough to let non-members post. > Anyway, this has to do > with how Gnus handles MFT in incoming messages, which is completely > separate from generating MFT for outgoing messages. yes, i think this is true (but i have the strong feeling i forgot something important...). > Why don't you add "ding@gnus.org" to message-subscribed-addresses? then i need another file or some mechanism that distinguishes between lists i'm really subscribed to and those which i can read, but maybe not post to. but i just did, messages honouring the MFT thus generated will appear on gmane, so i get to see them. i have the addresses of the lists i'm subscribed to in one place, which is also used in the filtering stage (procmail) to add a header tagging a message as coming from a list. these addresses used to be regular expressions, but it seems generally better to have the addresses spelled out. > I just don't see the point. What information are you really looking > for? If you want to know what the contents of the generated MFT will > be, you can just look at To and Cc. If you want to know whether MFT > will be generated at all, then that might be useful information that > could be added to the initial message buffer, but it could be done in > a different way that would not cause a wrong MFT to be sent. E.g., a > field could be added like: > X-Gnus-Make-MFT-For: ding@gnus.org this is what i proposed a few sentences later, only i called the field X-Gnus-MFT. >> the MFT would have to be changed if To or Cc had changed. let it be >> configurable: >> (i) generate MFT like it is now, calculated on the To/Cc and a list of >> subscribed email-lists, >> (ii) always use the MFT as set by the user. > > Neither of those does what I want. I want the current behavior: use > my MFT if I add one myself; otherwise generate one based on To/Cc if > I'm subscribed to one of those addresses. (i) _is_ the current behaviour! > AFAICT, what you want is not different behavior, but just more > information during message editing. So let's provide that information > without changing the behavior. ok. > [two cases: replying and starting a new thread] > The behavior is supposed to be the same for both cases: MFT for > outgoing messages (if autogenerated at all) is copied from To/Cc. > So if X-Gnus-MFT were to be generated, it would be based on the > initial To/Cc list. But that list can be set in many different > ways; MFT on an incoming message is just one of them. The only > interaction between incoming MFT and outgoing MFT is that the > incoming MFT, if present, specifies the initial To/Cc list. only when starting a thread, there is no information in the To/Cc, so what do we put into X-Gnus-MFT? if the user doesn't split lists into separate groups, we couldn't even look at the To address of the group parameters. >> if X-Gnus-MFT is left blank by the user, gnus is to generate the >> MFT as usual, if it isn't blank, override the magic. > > That's how MFT works now (if by "blank" you mean "nonexistent"). basically, yes. i'm beginning to think that this entire business could be simplified. C-c C-f C-a (init unsubscribed-mft) or C-c C-f C-m (move to mft) could have their semantics changed in that they re-generate the header value according to the current contents of To/Cc. together with editing header fields, this would be enough for me. >> i wish RFC-2822 had a mandatory field with envelope information in >> it. > > It wouldn't be trustworthy if it were set by the sender. As long as > your own receiving MTA adds those fields (e.g., Return-Path and > Delivered-To for qmail), does it really matter whether they're > required? it would be ideal if the headers could be made trustworthy by yet unknown magic, but for me it would suffice if i at least knew their names ;) reading through a batch of emails it seems that senders are commonly stored in Return-Path, Delivered-To and maybe you can look at the leading "From_...@..." if all else fails, but regarding receivers, it's much worse. with some mail-providers, i'm forced to scan the received lines, because they are the only places i can see that darned envelope receiver. so yes, i would very much like them to be mandatory. envelope info is needed so many places, why does it have to be a mythical experience to see it? clemens ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: [despammed] Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-02 23:16 ` Clemens Fischer @ 2002-10-03 16:30 ` Paul Jarc 2002-10-06 13:30 ` Clemens Fischer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2002-10-03 16:30 UTC (permalink / raw) Clemens Fischer <ino@despammed.com> wrote: > prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes: >> If you want to know whether MFT will be generated at all, then that >> might be useful information that could be added to the initial >> message buffer, but it could be done in a different way that would >> not cause a wrong MFT to be sent. E.g., a field could be added >> like: >> X-Gnus-Make-MFT-For: ding@gnus.org > > this is what i proposed a few sentences later, only i called the field > X-Gnus-MFT. I thought you were suggesting that X-Gnus-MFT would contain the same thing that MFT would contain - i.e., the same addresses as To/Cc. X-Gnus-Make-MFT-For would be different - it would contain only the *subscribed* addresses from To/Cc. Then you would know that if you removed all those addresses from To/Cc and left only unsubscribed addresses, no MFT would be generated. This is more informative than a simple copy of the initial To/Cc. >>> let it be configurable: >>> (i) generate MFT like it is now, calculated on the To/Cc and a list of >>> subscribed email-lists, >>> (ii) always use the MFT as set by the user. >> >> Neither of those does what I want. [...] > > (i) _is_ the current behaviour! It's not clear. What does (i) do when the user puts MFT into the message manually before sending? Anyway, I think we already have enough configurability: if you don't want Gnus to ever generate MFT automatically, just don't set any message-subscribed-* variables. > only when starting a thread, there is no information in the To/Cc, We have to-list, to-address, header fields from group parameters, and message-default-mail-headers. At least. > if the user doesn't split lists into separate groups, we couldn't > even look at the To address of the group parameters. Nor should we. To/Cc is exactly where MFT will come from, so it's the only place we should look to guess what MFT will be when we send the message later. To/Cc can come from lots of different places in turn, but we don't care about that. > C-c C-f C-a (init unsubscribed-mft) or C-c C-f C-m (move to mft) > could have their semantics changed in that they re-generate the > header value according to the current contents of To/Cc. It would be better to add a new command for that, so as not to disturb users of the old commands. > reading through a batch of emails it seems that senders are commonly > stored in Return-Path, Delivered-To and [...] Delivered-To is a recipient address, not sender. paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: [despammed] Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-03 16:30 ` Paul Jarc @ 2002-10-06 13:30 ` Clemens Fischer 2002-10-07 16:34 ` Paul Jarc 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Clemens Fischer @ 2002-10-06 13:30 UTC (permalink / raw) prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes: >> only when starting a thread, there is no information in the To/Cc, > > We have to-list, to-address, header fields from group parameters, > and message-default-mail-headers. At least. no. you people always think that everybody wants separate groups for each mailinglist and splits that way. well, i don't. i subscribe to as many lists i can manage in me poor head, and i read each and every post, but i store only the ones i need. so i have a central mailbox collecting everything, all splitting is done by procmail before that. meaning i can't use any of the group parameters, even if there were thousands of them. so what do _i_ do? i know, i know, "roll your own"... >> C-c C-f C-a (init unsubscribed-mft) or C-c C-f C-m (move to mft) >> could have their semantics changed in that they re-generate the >> header value according to the current contents of To/Cc. > > It would be better to add a new command for that, so as not to > disturb users of the old commands. ok. >> reading through a batch of emails it seems that senders are commonly >> stored in Return-Path, Delivered-To and [...] > > Delivered-To is a recipient address, not sender. sure. what a big mistake of mine. what i was hinting at is the fact that there are no RFC-ified headers one can look at for envelope information, although typical MTAs offer lots of functionality based on envelope information. it seems natural to let users influence and check envelope information. eg. i still don't know why posting-styles doesn't reliably set my sender. the workaround is easy, but it takes hours of that time i didn't know i had to invest. let's be done with this. btw, some part of my mailing now generates correct MFTs. clemens ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: [despammed] Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-06 13:30 ` Clemens Fischer @ 2002-10-07 16:34 ` Paul Jarc 2002-10-07 23:44 ` Clemens Fischer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2002-10-07 16:34 UTC (permalink / raw) Clemens Fischer <ino@despammed.com> wrote: > prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes: >>> only when starting a thread, there is no information in the To/Cc, >> >> We have to-list, to-address, header fields from group parameters, >> and message-default-mail-headers. At least. > > no. you people always think that everybody wants separate groups for > each mailinglist and splits that way. well, i don't. I wasn't assuming that. E.g., you could use a posting style like this: ("big-multilist-group" ("To" (whatever-you-like))) whatever-you-like can be function that looks at any information available and returns the address that is appropriate right now. It doesn't have to give the same address for the same group every time. I'm sure the same effect could be achieved in other ways too. > i subscribe to as many lists i can manage in me poor head, and i > read each and every post, but i store only the ones i need. so i > have a central mailbox collecting everything, all splitting is done > by procmail before that. > > meaning i can't use any of the group parameters, even if there were > thousands of them. so what do _i_ do? I'm not sure, because I don't quite understand your setup. If procmail does all the splitting before you read your mail, how is it all in one group? > btw, some part of my mailing now generates correct MFTs. This message still didn't have any. paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: [despammed] Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-07 16:34 ` Paul Jarc @ 2002-10-07 23:44 ` Clemens Fischer 2002-10-08 15:34 ` Paul Jarc 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Clemens Fischer @ 2002-10-07 23:44 UTC (permalink / raw) prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc): > I'm not sure, because I don't quite understand your setup. If > procmail does all the splitting before you read your mail, how is it > all in one group? procmail filters out junk. useful messages go into that one special main folder. >> btw, some part of my mailing now generates correct MFTs. > > This message still didn't have any. you had guessed that one already: i read ding on gmane. clemens ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: [despammed] Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-07 23:44 ` Clemens Fischer @ 2002-10-08 15:34 ` Paul Jarc 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2002-10-08 15:34 UTC (permalink / raw) Clemens Fischer <ino@despammed.com> wrote: > procmail filters out junk. useful messages go into that one special > main folder. Ok, then ISTR there may be a way to select a particular posting style when you start a new message. But I don't remember how. >>> btw, some part of my mailing now generates correct MFTs. >> >> This message still didn't have any. > > you had guessed that one already: i read ding on gmane. How you read doesn't matter. How you post does. If you post via mail, everything can still exactly work as if you were subscribed to the mailing list, assuming gmane preserves the original From, To, Cc, and MFT fields. If you post via news, then ding@gnus.org won't be in your To/Cc, so MFT can't be generated automatically (at least not by the existing code), but you could add it manually if you like. Or you could use "Mail-Copies-To: nobody" if you want to discourage Cc's to your address. But if you post via news, you'll be ignoring the MFT on messages you reply to: your message will go only to the list, even if MFT specifies additional addresses or directs the thread to a different list. Maybe gmane shouldn't allow posting, since AFAICS it can't be done right. paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-01 9:54 ` Clemens Fischer ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2002-10-02 16:49 ` Paul Jarc @ 2002-10-02 18:48 ` Reiner Steib 2002-10-03 0:13 ` Clemens Fischer 3 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Reiner Steib @ 2002-10-02 18:48 UTC (permalink / raw) On Tue, Oct 01 2002, Clemens Fischer wrote: > here's the list of headers i'd like to see. [...] > Content-Type: to see what characterset/language the OP expects This depends on both, the characters in the cited text and the ones *you* enter. I doesn't make any sense to see it while composing a message. If you want to see the CT used for sending, you'd better use `mml-preview' (C-u C-c RET P): ,----[ C-h f mml-preview RET ] | mml-preview is an interactive compiled Lisp function in `mml'. | (mml-preview &optional RAW) | | Display current buffer with Gnus, in a new buffer. | If RAW, don't highlight the article. `---- > Path: Why? Doesn't make any sense for me. > Reply-To: Useless if empty (or equal to From:). Use `C-c C-f C-r' (or <menu-bar> <Field> <Reply-To>) to insert it. Bye, Reiner. -- ,,, (o o) ---ooO-(_)-Ooo--- PGP key available via WWW http://rsteib.home.pages.de/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-02 18:48 ` Reiner Steib @ 2002-10-03 0:13 ` Clemens Fischer 2002-10-08 12:07 ` Reiner Steib 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Clemens Fischer @ 2002-10-03 0:13 UTC (permalink / raw) Reiner Steib <4uce.02.r.steib@gmx.net> writes: > `mml-preview' (C-u C-c RET P): "volltreffer!" == "bingo!" next think i'll try this to check MFT! >> Path: > > Why? Doesn't make any sense for me. > >> Reply-To: i want to see and set the envelope. clemens ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-03 0:13 ` Clemens Fischer @ 2002-10-08 12:07 ` Reiner Steib 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Reiner Steib @ 2002-10-08 12:07 UTC (permalink / raw) On Thu, Oct 03 2002, Clemens Fischer wrote: > Reiner Steib <4uce.02.r.steib@gmx.net> writes: [...] >>> Path: >> >> Why? Doesn't make any sense for me. >> >>> Reply-To: [re-inserted my text:] >> Useless if empty (or equal to From:). Use `C-c C-f C-r' (or <menu-bar> >> <Field> <Reply-To>) to insert it. > i want to see and set the envelope. I don't understand what this has to do with "Reply-To:" or "Path:". Bye, Reiner. -- ,,, (o o) ---ooO-(_)-Ooo--- PGP key available via WWW http://rsteib.home.pages.de/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-30 14:43 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-09-30 22:04 ` Clemens Fischer @ 2002-10-01 11:06 ` Kai Großjohann 2002-10-01 11:54 ` Kai Großjohann 2002-10-02 4:41 ` Dan Christensen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2002-10-01 11:06 UTC (permalink / raw) Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: > I like Kai's suggestion of making the variable be a list of headers to > generate (nil and t would still be valid choices). It was Clement's suggestion :-) kai -- ~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn (Frank Nobis) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-10-01 11:06 ` Kai Großjohann @ 2002-10-01 11:54 ` Kai Großjohann 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2002-10-01 11:54 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes: > It was Clement's suggestion :-) Clemens', of course. kai -- ~/.signature is: umop ap!sdn (Frank Nobis) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-30 14:43 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-09-30 22:04 ` Clemens Fischer 2002-10-01 11:06 ` Kai Großjohann @ 2002-10-02 4:41 ` Dan Christensen 2 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Dan Christensen @ 2002-10-02 4:41 UTC (permalink / raw) Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: > Clemens Fischer <ino@despammed.com> writes: > >> i would like to be able to see every header generated on my behalf, >> customizable using a list in this header, for example. > > I like [Clemens'] suggestion of making the variable be a list of headers to > generate (nil and t would still be valid choices). How about making 'most a valid choice too: this could generate all headers except those listed in message-deletable-headers. Since those change when you send the message, what you see isn't really accurate anyways, so I expect many people would like this option. Dan -- Dan Christensen jdc@uwo.ca ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-09-29 14:01 Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? Simon Josefsson 2002-09-29 14:14 ` Karl Kleinpaste 2002-09-29 15:14 ` Kai Großjohann @ 2002-12-29 15:59 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2002-12-30 16:36 ` Romain FRANCOISE ` (2 more replies) 2 siblings, 3 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2002-12-29 15:59 UTC (permalink / raw) Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: > The Lines: header seems to be deprecated even for news in RFC1036bis. My conclusion from reading this thread is that it should probably be removed for news as well, so I did that, too. > Also, shouldn't Gnus generate the In-Reply-To header in the message > buffer when you press R or F? The References: header is generated. > Possibly neither should be generated though (and people that want to > see it can use `message-generate-headers-first'). Opinions? And I've now made References be generated upon sending by default. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-12-29 15:59 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2002-12-30 16:36 ` Romain FRANCOISE 2002-12-30 16:50 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2002-12-30 20:46 ` No References header when using drafts (was: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail?) Reiner Steib 2003-01-06 19:27 ` References Header (Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail?) Mark Thomas 2 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Romain FRANCOISE @ 2002-12-30 16:36 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > And I've now made References be generated upon sending by default. Hm, a funny side-effect of this change is that (apparently) messages sent via the Agent queue (e.g. unplugged) don't have References in them when they're delivered; effectively breaking threads if the subject changes (with a mailing-list manager that puts article numbers in the subject, for example). -- Romain FRANCOISE <romain@orebokech.com> | When we were kids, we hated it's a miracle -- http://orebokech.com/ | things our parents did. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-12-30 16:36 ` Romain FRANCOISE @ 2002-12-30 16:50 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2002-12-30 22:06 ` Romain FRANCOISE 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2002-12-30 16:50 UTC (permalink / raw) Romain FRANCOISE <romain@orebokech.com> writes: > Hm, a funny side-effect of this change is that (apparently) messages > sent via the Agent queue (e.g. unplugged) don't have References in them > when they're delivered; effectively breaking threads if the subject > changes (with a mailing-list manager that puts article numbers in the > subject, for example). What's the value of your `message-required-news-headers' variable? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? 2002-12-30 16:50 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2002-12-30 22:06 ` Romain FRANCOISE 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Romain FRANCOISE @ 2002-12-30 22:06 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > What's the value of your `message-required-news-headers' variable? It's (From Newsgroups Subject Date Message-ID (optional . Organization) (optional . References) (optional . User-Agent)) but now that I think about it, the messages were all coming from a draft, then sent unplugged, then sent when I plugged again, so this is probably the same bug as Reiner had. I'll update and see if it happens again. -- Romain FRANCOISE <romain@orebokech.com> | This is a man's man's man's it's a miracle -- http://orebokech.com/ | world. --James Brown ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* No References header when using drafts (was: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail?) 2002-12-29 15:59 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2002-12-30 16:36 ` Romain FRANCOISE @ 2002-12-30 20:46 ` Reiner Steib 2002-12-30 21:06 ` No References header when using drafts Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2003-01-06 19:27 ` References Header (Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail?) Mark Thomas 2 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Reiner Steib @ 2002-12-30 20:46 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sun, Dec 29 2002, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: > Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: [...] >> Also, shouldn't Gnus generate the In-Reply-To header in the message >> buffer when you press R or F? The References: header is generated. >> Possibly neither should be generated though (and people that want to >> see it can use `message-generate-headers-first'). Opinions? > > And I've now made References be generated upon sending by default. ,---- | 2002-12-29 Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> [...] | * message.el (message-required-news-headers): Removed Lines. | (message-reply): Don't insert References first. | (message-followup): Ditto. | (message-make-references): New function. | (message-followup): Set message-reply-headers before generating | the buffer stuff. `---- It seems to me that this change leads to bug: When I save a reply to drafts and send it later, the References header gets lost. The drafts file doesn't contain the References header. See article <v94r8v8l6k.fsf@theotp5.physik.uni-ulm.de> in gmane.test. Bye, Reiner. -- ,,, (o o) ---ooO-(_)-Ooo--- PGP key available via WWW http://rsteib.home.pages.de/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: No References header when using drafts 2002-12-30 20:46 ` No References header when using drafts (was: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail?) Reiner Steib @ 2002-12-30 21:06 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2002-12-30 21:59 ` Reiner Steib 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2002-12-30 21:06 UTC (permalink / raw) Reiner Steib <4uce.02.r.steib@gmx.net> writes: > It seems to me that this change leads to bug: When I save a reply to > drafts and send it later, the References header gets lost. Try updating from CVS again and see whether the problem has been fixed by the latest changes... -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: No References header when using drafts 2002-12-30 21:06 ` No References header when using drafts Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2002-12-30 21:59 ` Reiner Steib 2002-12-30 22:23 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Reiner Steib @ 2002-12-30 21:59 UTC (permalink / raw) On Mon, Dec 30 2002, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: > Reiner Steib <4uce.02.r.steib@gmx.net> writes: > >> It seems to me that this change leads to bug: When I save a reply to >> drafts and send it later, the References header gets lost. > > Try updating from CVS again and see whether the problem has been > fixed by the latest changes... cvs up -dP (Mon Dec 30 22:49:20 CET 2002) No luck, see <http://article.gmane.org/gmane.test/412>. Maybe it works when you don't exit Emacs, so that the buffer with the original article (" *Original Article gnus.ding*") is still alive. Bye, Reiner. -- ,,, (o o) ---ooO-(_)-Ooo--- PGP key available via WWW http://rsteib.home.pages.de/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: No References header when using drafts 2002-12-30 21:59 ` Reiner Steib @ 2002-12-30 22:23 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2002-12-31 14:43 ` Reiner Steib 2002-12-31 15:23 ` Kai Großjohann 0 siblings, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2002-12-30 22:23 UTC (permalink / raw) Reiner Steib <4uce.02.r.steib@gmx.net> writes: > No luck, see <http://article.gmane.org/gmane.test/412>. Maybe it > works when you don't exit Emacs, so that the buffer with the original > article (" *Original Article gnus.ding*") is still alive. Oh, I see now. I wasn't thinking clearly. Yes, that's a major problem that I didn't consider. When saving to the drafts buffer, the References header has to be stored there. Hmm. Ok, how about this -- installing a file-write hook that generates the References header, so that it exists if the message buffer is written to a file. Any other headers that should also be generated then? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: No References header when using drafts 2002-12-30 22:23 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2002-12-31 14:43 ` Reiner Steib 2003-01-01 17:57 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2002-12-31 15:23 ` Kai Großjohann 1 sibling, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Reiner Steib @ 2002-12-31 14:43 UTC (permalink / raw) On Mon, Dec 30 2002, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: > Yes, that's a major problem that I didn't consider. When saving to > the drafts buffer, the References header has to be stored there. > Hmm. > > Ok, how about this -- installing a file-write hook that generates the > References header, so that it exists if the message buffer is written > to a file. Any other headers that should also be generated then? Maybe In-Reply-To (for mail)? BTW, Simon suggested <ilu8z1k28u6.fsf@h28n1c1o299.bredband.skanova.com>: | [...] people that want to see it can use | `message-generate-headers-first' Would it be difficult allow a list of headers that should be generated first? E.g. I don't like to have "Date:" generated first, but it's okay for me if References, MID, ... are generated first. Bye, Reiner. -- ,,, (o o) ---ooO-(_)-Ooo--- PGP key available via WWW http://rsteib.home.pages.de/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: No References header when using drafts 2002-12-31 14:43 ` Reiner Steib @ 2003-01-01 17:57 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2003-01-01 18:49 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2003-01-01 17:57 UTC (permalink / raw) Reiner Steib <4uce.02.r.steib@gmx.net> writes: > Maybe In-Reply-To (for mail)? Yup. > Would it be difficult allow a list of headers that should be generated > first? E.g. I don't like to have "Date:" generated first, but it's > okay for me if References, MID, ... are generated first. That would probably also be nice... I'll let that value also be allowed to be a list of headers. kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) writes: > With this, you don't need X-Draft-From anymore: you can just generate > all the headers at the time of writing the file. Yup. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: No References header when using drafts 2003-01-01 17:57 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2003-01-01 18:49 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2003-01-01 18:49 UTC (permalink / raw) Ok; I've now made the rather sweeping changes that allows References and draft headers be generated on draft buffer save. So let's see how that goes... -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: No References header when using drafts 2002-12-30 22:23 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2002-12-31 14:43 ` Reiner Steib @ 2002-12-31 15:23 ` Kai Großjohann 2003-01-02 17:05 ` Simon Josefsson 1 sibling, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2002-12-31 15:23 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > Ok, how about this -- installing a file-write hook that generates the > References header, so that it exists if the message buffer is written > to a file. Any other headers that should also be generated then? With this, you don't need X-Draft-From anymore: you can just generate all the headers at the time of writing the file. -- Ambibibentists unite! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: No References header when using drafts 2002-12-31 15:23 ` Kai Großjohann @ 2003-01-02 17:05 ` Simon Josefsson 2003-01-02 18:30 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2003-01-02 21:30 ` Kai Großjohann 0 siblings, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Simon Josefsson @ 2003-01-02 17:05 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) writes: > Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > >> Ok, how about this -- installing a file-write hook that generates the >> References header, so that it exists if the message buffer is written >> to a file. Any other headers that should also be generated then? > > With this, you don't need X-Draft-From anymore: you can just generate > all the headers at the time of writing the file. Doesn't X-Draft-From influence e.g. posting styles, which in turn could influence e.g. which SMTP server is eventually used? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: No References header when using drafts 2003-01-02 17:05 ` Simon Josefsson @ 2003-01-02 18:30 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2003-01-02 20:53 ` Simon Josefsson 2003-01-02 21:30 ` Kai Großjohann 1 sibling, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2003-01-02 18:30 UTC (permalink / raw) Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: >> With this, you don't need X-Draft-From anymore: you can just generate >> all the headers at the time of writing the file. > > Doesn't X-Draft-From influence e.g. posting styles, which in turn > could influence e.g. which SMTP server is eventually used? Hm... It's possible that people have written posting styles that depend on X-Draft-From, but it seems kinda unlikely. The information available there is much more easily accessible from the `gnus-newsgroup-name' variable, I'd have thought. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: No References header when using drafts 2003-01-02 18:30 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2003-01-02 20:53 ` Simon Josefsson 2003-01-02 21:04 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Simon Josefsson @ 2003-01-02 20:53 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: > >>> With this, you don't need X-Draft-From anymore: you can just generate >>> all the headers at the time of writing the file. >> >> Doesn't X-Draft-From influence e.g. posting styles, which in turn >> could influence e.g. which SMTP server is eventually used? > > Hm... It's possible that people have written posting styles that > depend on X-Draft-From, but it seems kinda unlikely. The information > available there is much more easily accessible from the > `gnus-newsgroup-name' variable, I'd have thought. Yes, but isn't the gnus-newsgroup-name initialized from the X-Draft-From header when you edit a draft? I assumed that was what it was there for, but I probably never looked at the code. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: No References header when using drafts 2003-01-02 20:53 ` Simon Josefsson @ 2003-01-02 21:04 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2003-01-03 17:48 ` Kai Großjohann 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2003-01-02 21:04 UTC (permalink / raw) Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: > Yes, but isn't the gnus-newsgroup-name initialized from the > X-Draft-From header when you edit a draft? Oh, sure, but in that case the X-Draft-Header is in the buffer. It's generated when you save the buffer to the draft group. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: No References header when using drafts 2003-01-02 21:04 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2003-01-03 17:48 ` Kai Großjohann 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2003-01-03 17:48 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: > >> Yes, but isn't the gnus-newsgroup-name initialized from the >> X-Draft-From header when you edit a draft? > > Oh, sure, but in that case the X-Draft-Header is in the buffer. It's > generated when you save the buffer to the draft group. Simon was responding to my suggestion of removing X-Draft-From... It was not a good suggestion. -- Ambibibentists unite! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: No References header when using drafts 2003-01-02 17:05 ` Simon Josefsson 2003-01-02 18:30 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2003-01-02 21:30 ` Kai Großjohann 1 sibling, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2003-01-02 21:30 UTC (permalink / raw) Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes: > Doesn't X-Draft-From influence e.g. posting styles, which in turn > could influence e.g. which SMTP server is eventually used? Well, the headers that they generate could be generated on saving. But you're right about the variables. That's not so easy. -- Ambibibentists unite! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* References Header (Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail?) 2002-12-29 15:59 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2002-12-30 16:36 ` Romain FRANCOISE 2002-12-30 20:46 ` No References header when using drafts (was: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail?) Reiner Steib @ 2003-01-06 19:27 ` Mark Thomas 2003-01-07 4:56 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2003-01-07 12:49 ` References Header Reiner Steib 2 siblings, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Mark Thomas @ 2003-01-06 19:27 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sun, 29 Dec 2002, larsi@gnus.org wrote: > And I've now made References be generated upon sending by default. Is there any way to get the old behavior? I know I can set message-generate-headers-first to t (or to '("References")) to see the References-header's value, but sometimes I delete it (because I'm being "bad" and using "followup" when maybe I should be using "new mail"), and I'd like it to stay deleted. Cheers, -Mark ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: References Header (Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail?) 2003-01-06 19:27 ` References Header (Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail?) Mark Thomas @ 2003-01-07 4:56 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2003-01-07 13:11 ` Mark Thomas 2003-01-07 18:12 ` Kai Großjohann 2003-01-07 12:49 ` References Header Reiner Steib 1 sibling, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2003-01-07 4:56 UTC (permalink / raw) Mark Thomas <swoon@bellatlantic.net> writes: > I know I can set message-generate-headers-first to t (or to > '("References")) to see the References-header's value, but sometimes I > delete it (because I'm being "bad" and using "followup" when maybe I > should be using "new mail"), and I'd like it to stay deleted. Oh. Hm. Message actually has no mechanism for recognizing that you've removed one of the headers that it usually generates. For instance, if you have Organization as a required header, and generate the headers first, Message will just re-insert the Organization header. On the other hand, if you edit the Organization header, Message won't touch the header. The same goes for References now that's it's a more normal header. Hm. I don't see any easy solution. Message could keep track of which headers that were inserted upon group entry, and not try to generate any of them if they are removed? But that would create problems if you delete the From header (generated, say, by a posting style), meaning to let Message auto-generate the default From header. *ponder* -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: References Header (Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail?) 2003-01-07 4:56 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2003-01-07 13:11 ` Mark Thomas 2003-01-07 18:12 ` Kai Großjohann 1 sibling, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Mark Thomas @ 2003-01-07 13:11 UTC (permalink / raw) On Tue, 07 Jan 2003, larsi@gnus.org wrote: > Mark Thomas <swoon@bellatlantic.net> writes: > >> I know I can set message-generate-headers-first to t (or to >> '("References")) to see the References-header's value, but >> sometimes I delete it (because I'm being "bad" and using "followup" >> when maybe I should be using "new mail"), and I'd like it to stay >> deleted. > > Hm. I don't see any easy solution. I admit I get the unwanted References header when when I'm abusing Gnus, and since you indicate getting the previous behavior will not be easy, I'll just need to change my behavior. If I find that I cannot, I'll edit message-required-mail-headers in my ~/.gnus. Thanks, Lars. -Mark ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: References Header (Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail?) 2003-01-07 4:56 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2003-01-07 13:11 ` Mark Thomas @ 2003-01-07 18:12 ` Kai Großjohann 2003-01-08 4:10 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2003-01-07 18:12 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > Oh. Hm. Message actually has no mechanism for recognizing that > you've removed one of the headers that it usually generates. For > instance, if you have Organization as a required header, and generate > the headers first, Message will just re-insert the Organization > header. On the other hand, if you edit the Organization header, > Message won't touch the header. > > The same goes for References now that's it's a more normal header. Gnus (or Message, rather) could delete headers where the value is empty. WDYT? -- Ambibibentists unite! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: References Header (Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail?) 2003-01-07 18:12 ` Kai Großjohann @ 2003-01-08 4:10 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2003-01-08 4:10 UTC (permalink / raw) kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de (Kai Großjohann) writes: > Gnus (or Message, rather) could delete headers where the value is > empty. Message now considers empty headers and missing headers to be the same thing. For instance, if you leave From empty, Message will generate it. *ponder* Aha! But I could make Message not generate the headers that are optional if they are empty. This would apply to References in particular. Yes, I think I'll do that. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: References Header 2003-01-06 19:27 ` References Header (Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail?) Mark Thomas 2003-01-07 4:56 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2003-01-07 12:49 ` Reiner Steib 2003-01-08 3:55 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Reiner Steib @ 2003-01-07 12:49 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 702 bytes --] On Mon, Jan 06 2003, Mark Thomas wrote: > On Sun, 29 Dec 2002, larsi@gnus.org wrote: > >> And I've now made References be generated upon sending by default. > > Is there any way to get the old behavior? > > I know I can set message-generate-headers-first to t (or to > '("References")) to see the References-header's value, Shouldn't it be '(References)? BTW, here's a patch, allowing to customize the variable as a list: --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- 2003-01-07 Reiner Steib <Reiner.Steib@gmx.de> * message.el (message-generate-headers-first): Added customization if variable is a list. --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #2: message.message-generate-headers-first.patch --] [-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 519 bytes --] --- message.el.~6.283.~ Tue Jan 7 12:20:10 2003 +++ message.el Tue Jan 7 12:55:33 2003 @@ -690,7 +690,9 @@ are to be deleted and then re-generated before sending, so this variable will not have a visible effect for those headers." :group 'message-headers - :type 'boolean) + :type '(choice (const :tag "None" nil) + (const :tag "All" t) + (repeat (sexp :tag "Header")))) (defcustom message-setup-hook nil "Normal hook, run each time a new outgoing message is initialized. [-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 116 bytes --] Bye, Reiner. -- ,,, (o o) ---ooO-(_)-Ooo--- PGP key available via WWW http://rsteib.home.pages.de/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: References Header 2003-01-07 12:49 ` References Header Reiner Steib @ 2003-01-08 3:55 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2003-01-08 3:55 UTC (permalink / raw) Reiner Steib <4uce.02.r.steib@gmx.net> writes: > * message.el (message-generate-headers-first): Added customization > if variable is a list. Thanks for the patch; I've applied it to Oort Gnus v0.11 (i. e., CVS). -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2003-01-08 4:10 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 81+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2002-09-29 14:01 Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail? Simon Josefsson 2002-09-29 14:14 ` Karl Kleinpaste 2002-09-29 14:32 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-09-29 17:08 ` Karl Kleinpaste 2002-09-29 17:51 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-09-30 1:31 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2002-09-30 1:57 ` Russ Allbery 2002-09-30 19:15 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2002-10-01 2:11 ` Russ Allbery 2002-10-01 3:27 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2002-10-01 3:38 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-10-01 3:57 ` Russ Allbery 2002-09-30 3:08 ` greg andruk 2002-09-30 19:17 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2002-09-30 11:23 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-10-07 21:58 ` Florian Weimer 2002-10-07 23:20 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-10-09 14:04 ` Per Abrahamsen 2002-10-02 16:46 ` Per Abrahamsen 2002-09-29 18:35 ` Russ Allbery 2002-09-29 18:51 ` Michael Cook 2002-09-29 19:45 ` Russ Allbery 2002-09-29 15:14 ` Kai Großjohann 2002-09-29 16:59 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-09-29 20:15 ` Kai Großjohann 2002-09-29 20:21 ` Jorgen Schaefer 2002-09-29 20:30 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-09-29 21:43 ` Jorgen Schaefer 2002-09-30 12:03 ` Clemens Fischer 2002-09-30 14:19 ` Kai Großjohann 2002-09-30 14:43 ` Simon Josefsson 2002-09-30 22:04 ` Clemens Fischer 2002-10-01 0:22 ` Josh Huber 2002-10-01 9:54 ` Clemens Fischer 2002-10-01 10:45 ` Kai Großjohann 2002-10-02 16:52 ` Paul Jarc 2002-10-01 14:05 ` Josh Huber 2002-10-01 18:12 ` Clemens Fischer 2002-10-02 18:38 ` Paul Jarc 2002-10-03 0:06 ` mail-followup-to, was " Clemens Fischer 2002-10-03 16:13 ` Paul Jarc 2002-10-02 16:49 ` Paul Jarc 2002-10-02 19:44 ` [despammed] " clemens fischer 2002-10-02 20:25 ` Paul Jarc 2002-10-02 23:16 ` Clemens Fischer 2002-10-03 16:30 ` Paul Jarc 2002-10-06 13:30 ` Clemens Fischer 2002-10-07 16:34 ` Paul Jarc 2002-10-07 23:44 ` Clemens Fischer 2002-10-08 15:34 ` Paul Jarc 2002-10-02 18:48 ` Reiner Steib 2002-10-03 0:13 ` Clemens Fischer 2002-10-08 12:07 ` Reiner Steib 2002-10-01 11:06 ` Kai Großjohann 2002-10-01 11:54 ` Kai Großjohann 2002-10-02 4:41 ` Dan Christensen 2002-12-29 15:59 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2002-12-30 16:36 ` Romain FRANCOISE 2002-12-30 16:50 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2002-12-30 22:06 ` Romain FRANCOISE 2002-12-30 20:46 ` No References header when using drafts (was: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail?) Reiner Steib 2002-12-30 21:06 ` No References header when using drafts Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2002-12-30 21:59 ` Reiner Steib 2002-12-30 22:23 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2002-12-31 14:43 ` Reiner Steib 2003-01-01 17:57 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2003-01-01 18:49 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2002-12-31 15:23 ` Kai Großjohann 2003-01-02 17:05 ` Simon Josefsson 2003-01-02 18:30 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2003-01-02 20:53 ` Simon Josefsson 2003-01-02 21:04 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2003-01-03 17:48 ` Kai Großjohann 2003-01-02 21:30 ` Kai Großjohann 2003-01-06 19:27 ` References Header (Re: Why does Gnus generates Lines: header in mail?) Mark Thomas 2003-01-07 4:56 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2003-01-07 13:11 ` Mark Thomas 2003-01-07 18:12 ` Kai Großjohann 2003-01-08 4:10 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2003-01-07 12:49 ` References Header Reiner Steib 2003-01-08 3:55 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
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