[9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Aram Hăvărneanu]

Is nix closed source, dead, or vaporware?

The daily generated nix.tgz is either not daily generated or the
tree which it is archiving is dead. Most files are from 2012, most
recent file (nix/sys/log/nixdistr) is from Feb 8 2013, the kernel
is from Jul 10 2012.

The variant posted on sources is even older. Perhaps the 9P service
at sources.lsub.org is newer? Nope, same thing:

  --rw-rw-r-- M 0 nemo sys 1964 Jul 10  2012 k8cpu

This blog mentions a lot of new development happening:
http://syssoftware.blogspot.com. Unfortunately, all that development
either is vaporware or under closed doors. The author mentions in
many places that the source will be "published soon". Unfortunately
this has not happened.

Interestingly, the nix source published in 9atom contains newer
files, May 20th to be exact. It's not just new drivers ported from
9atom, the newest non-driver, k10-specific file is stamped May 16th.
I don't know if the timestamps are simply wrong or some priviledged
people do get access to the source.

Considering how little interest is in Plan 9 these days, locking
Plan 9 under closed doors is a disgrace to this community.

-- 
Aram Hăvărneanu

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[erik quanstrom]

> Interestingly, the nix source published in 9atom contains newer
> files, May 20th to be exact. It's not just new drivers ported from
> 9atom, the newest non-driver, k10-specific file is stamped May 16th.
> I don't know if the timestamps are simply wrong or some priviledged
> people do get access to the source.
>
> Considering how little interest is in Plan 9 these days, locking
> Plan 9 under closed doors is a disgrace to this community.

it might be that the 9atom cd is a little out of date.  if you do
a pull you or simply go to /n/atom/plan9/sys/src/nix you will
see newer files.

port/devws.c and port/taslock.c were modified
today.  though the modification was fairly trivial, they set the
stage for improved locking.  (initial tests failed to show
improvement, however, perhaps *because* the locking was better.)

a few days ago, acpi boot was made the default.  thanks to cinap
and nemo for the aml interperter.

the 9atom nix kernel is, modulo time skew, the same as the one
running 9atom machines, my machines, etc.

all the changes are in /n/atom/patch.  anyone can submit patches.
you can subscribe to the change list (echo subscribe | mail \
sources-owner@9atom.org).  so, to turn the question around a bit,
why haven't there been many submissions?

tl;dr: as far as i know, there is no private nix development going on,
although there might be some unfinished projects, or research.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

the mark I nix was, thanks to erik, made public and got stuff like graphics.
Im sure you know where to find it.

We have another version which is still experimental and unreleased, 
but we were distracted by other things. Hopefully we will publish it in the
near future. But, we do what we can.


The files you refer to are very old files from before it was copied to erik
distribution, unless Im mistaken. They are still left there as a reference.

As an aside, you already got some stuff that came from the nix effort,
for example, the change to long runes was a joint effort with others from
the labs.

So, it's far from dead. 
Sorry to hear that working on it is insulting.
But we will continue to share everything we do when we think it is ready
to be shared.

On Sep 6, 2013, at 12:13 AM, Aram Hăvărneanu <aram.h@mgk.ro> wrote:

> Is nix closed source, dead, or vaporware?
> 
> The daily generated nix.tgz is either not daily generated or the
> tree which it is archiving is dead. Most files are from 2012, most
> recent file (nix/sys/log/nixdistr) is from Feb 8 2013, the kernel
> is from Jul 10 2012.
> 
> The variant posted on sources is even older. Perhaps the 9P service
> at sources.lsub.org is newer? Nope, same thing:
> 
>  --rw-rw-r-- M 0 nemo sys 1964 Jul 10  2012 k8cpu
> 
> This blog mentions a lot of new development happening:
> http://syssoftware.blogspot.com. Unfortunately, all that development
> either is vaporware or under closed doors. The author mentions in
> many places that the source will be "published soon". Unfortunately
> this has not happened.
> 
> Interestingly, the nix source published in 9atom contains newer
> files, May 20th to be exact. It's not just new drivers ported from
> 9atom, the newest non-driver, k10-specific file is stamped May 16th.
> I don't know if the timestamps are simply wrong or some priviledged
> people do get access to the source.
> 
> Considering how little interest is in Plan 9 these days, locking
> Plan 9 under closed doors is a disgrace to this community.
> 
> -- 
> Aram Hăvărneanu

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Kurt H Maier]

I was going to post something along the lines of "if you can't
increase the quality of a product, you can increase its value via
artificial scarcity," but I've been out-trolled already:

Quoting Francisco J Ballesteros <nemo@lsub.org>:

> Sorry to hear that working on it is insulting.

This is either the dumbest thing you've ever said or the best
trollfodder in a while.  If that's actually the message you took from
Aram's mail, you're either experiencing a complete failure to parse
English, or you're deluded to the point of uselessness.

It's moderately entertaining to decide which.

Aram's point, obviously, is not that working on nix is insulting.
Pretending you are a better judge than the whole world on whether
something is 'ready to be shared' is insulting.  Unless you have
lawyers pointing metaophorical guns at your job, in which case just
say that.  This sort of garbage is how we lost version 10 unix.

khm

P.S.  I'm sure there are magical secret bunkers across the world where
you all enjoy your private copies of v10.  I don't care.

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Steve Simon]

> Aram's point, obviously, is not that working on nix is insulting.
> Pretending you are a better judge than the whole world on whether
> something is 'ready to be shared' is insulting.  Unless you have
> lawyers pointing metaophorical guns at your job, in which case just
> say that.

Good grief, I write lots of code for plan9, only some of which I decide
is successfull and well written enough to release. This is my choice
and only mine, I created it I do what I want with it.

I don't believe any different rules apply to nemo.

If somone where to priviately, politely ask him off-line asking
for a copy of the work in progress he might be willing to share,
though he might not, I don't know what state this code is in or how
he feels about what has been written.

Fundamentally I don't understand how people beleive they can complain
when they don't have access to other peoples private work.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for sharing code but its to authors right
to decide not to share if they wish.

-Steve

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Richard Miller]

> tl;dr: as far as i know, there is no private nix development going on,

Aha, the fact that you don't know proves that it's private. ☺

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

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On Sep 6, 2013, at 10:49 AM, Richard Miller <9fans@hamnavoe.com> wrote:

>> tl;dr: as far as i know, there is no private nix development going on,
> 
> Aha, the fact that you don't know proves that it's private. ☺

As are most the files I open in my editor, until at some point I do a Put and
others can access them. But in that interval, development is secretly confined
to my terminal. Yes. That does not mean I'll keep the file for me forever.

Also, yes, I'm usually the one who can better judge when doing a Put in my
editor is a good idea. Sorry about that.



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Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[hiro]

It would be better if you guys keep it low here on the mailing list or
else the people that got tricked into funding this might find out.

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[BurnZeZ]

"The main development tree is hosted in sources.lsub.org"
- http://lsub.org/ls/nix.html

If true, there has been little unified progress.
If false, then isn't this all about misrepresentation?

As far as I can tell, the only person to have posted to syssoftware is
Ballesteros.  If those posts are regarding his personal work, then
they can't be said to represent the separate works of all involved.

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Francisco J Ballesteros]

I think its almost ready at least to
try and take a look, I will try to
put out a copy next week,
unless other authors ask me not to.

any useful bit for "production" usage
will be shared, anyway, we have always done it
that way.

In short, I agree 100% with Steve.

On Sep 6, 2013, at 10:27 AM, "Steve Simon" <steve@quintile.net> wrote:

>> Aram's point, obviously, is not that working on nix is insulting.
>> Pretending you are a better judge than the whole world on whether
>> something is 'ready to be shared' is insulting.  Unless you have
>> lawyers pointing metaophorical guns at your job, in which case just
>> say that.
>
> Good grief, I write lots of code for plan9, only some of which I decide
> is successfull and well written enough to release. This is my choice
> and only mine, I created it I do what I want with it.
>
> I don't believe any different rules apply to nemo.
>
> If somone where to priviately, politely ask him off-line asking
> for a copy of the work in progress he might be willing to share,
> though he might not, I don't know what state this code is in or how
> he feels about what has been written.
>
> Fundamentally I don't understand how people beleive they can complain
> when they don't have access to other peoples private work.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I am all for sharing code but its to authors right
> to decide not to share if they wish.
>
> -Steve

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Kurt H Maier]

Quoting Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net>:

> Don't get me wrong, I am all for sharing code but its to authors right
> to decide not to share if they wish.
>

You're preaching to the choir there.  My personal opinion is the last
thing the world needs is more computer software; it merely encourages
people to create more computer software.  I was merely trying to help
clarify Aram's point, which had been bizarrely misinterpreted by nemo.

khm

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Aram Hăvărneanu]

> Good grief, I write lots of code for plan9, only some of which I
> decide is successfull and well written enough to release. This is my
> choice and only mine

I don't remember you bragging about your unpublished work though.

> I created it I do what I want with it.

I believe the rules are different when the work is research, sponsored
by public money. People are getting research grants to work on nix.

> as far as i know, there is no private nix development going on

Who are you kidding. This is the norm around here. I have been
personally invited in multiple private Plan 9-related projects by some
of the few proemiment members of this community that still write code.
This has always been the norm; read 15 year old 9fans posts and find
that the same attitude (and complaints) prevail.

It's not that people want stuff to be secret, it's just that tending
a community takes effort and they don't care. They want to do the job
themselves, they want to write that paper without pesky noise from the
community interfering and when it is done they don't mind if you have
it. Sometimes you will get it, sometimes you will not. If you ask, you
will almost always get it.

Everything is developed in secret without the involvment of any
potential parties. Sure, everybody has the right to work in any way they
like (except when the work is paid by public money), but you reap what
youb sow. The lack of public interest in Plan 9 is due to this attitude.
It has plagued the project from the very beginning.

-- 
Aram Hăvărneanu

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Nemo]

On Sep 7, 2013, at 1:35 AM, Aram Hăvărneanu <aram.h@mgk.ro> wrote:

> I believe the rules are different when the work is research, sponsored
> by public money. People are getting research grants to work on nix.

Just for the record,
we got not a single cent for nix.

As far as lsub is concerned, it's been a free time effort.
So, I don't know what you are complainting about.

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[erik quanstrom]

> > I created it I do what I want with it.
>
> I believe the rules are different when the work is research, sponsored
> by public money. People are getting research grants to work on nix.

who is getting grants to work on nix?

> > as far as i know, there is no private nix development going on
>
> Who are you kidding. This is the norm around here. I have been
> personally invited in multiple private Plan 9-related projects by some
> of the few proemiment members of this community that still write code.
> This has always been the norm; read 15 year old 9fans posts and find
> that the same attitude (and complaints) prevail.

i'm not sure if you're complaining or bragging.

but anyway, we're talking about current nix (which i take to mean
current 64-bit intel/amd development of any sort).

so have you been invited to participate in private nix development?

- erik

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Devon H. O'Dell]

2013/9/6 erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>:
>> > I created it I do what I want with it.
>>
>> I believe the rules are different when the work is research, sponsored
>> by public money. People are getting research grants to work on nix.
>
> who is getting grants to work on nix?
>
>> > as far as i know, there is no private nix development going on
>>
>> Who are you kidding. This is the norm around here. I have been
>> personally invited in multiple private Plan 9-related projects by some
>> of the few proemiment members of this community that still write code.
>> This has always been the norm; read 15 year old 9fans posts and find
>> that the same attitude (and complaints) prevail.
>
> i'm not sure if you're complaining or bragging.
>
> but anyway, we're talking about current nix (which i take to mean
> current 64-bit intel/amd development of any sort).
>
> so have you been invited to participate in private nix development?

I've been invited. I'm too busy, and I feel like a dick, because I
think it'd be a lot of fun. I'm happy that people are contributing.

But I do wish that this list and the software produced by the people
on it was more transparent. I'm sure nobody likes bitbucket or github
here, but I'm pretty sure everyone would be happy with a 9p mount of
ongoing development. It's amazing what commented changesets do for
software engineering in organizations (public or private) to quell
worries about those projects.

--dho

> - erik
>

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Bruce Ellis]

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I don't really understand this thread. I thought it was a stupid flame war,
in which case I can only say that I miss Boyd calling a spade a fucking
shovel.

I was disturbed by the claim that v10 had been lost because of bullshit,
but said nothing.

If indeed someone has lost their v10 I can replace it. If you are in
australia it's easy. Contact me with the details of your import license and
I will arrange for a copy on TK50 for you. I'm not allowed to
export/sell/destroy it so I'm stuck with it. Nearly all of cmd is on the
web anyway!

And a complete rack of plan9 servers is a lot quieter, faster, and uses
lest power than my Vax.

But I digress, voting nemo Plan9 innovator of the month. Shoot me.

brucee


On 7 September 2013 14:06, Devon H. O'Dell <devon.odell@gmail.com> wrote:

> 2013/9/6 erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>:
> >> > I created it I do what I want with it.
> >>
> >> I believe the rules are different when the work is research, sponsored
> >> by public money. People are getting research grants to work on nix.
> >
> > who is getting grants to work on nix?
> >
> >> > as far as i know, there is no private nix development going on
> >>
> >> Who are you kidding. This is the norm around here. I have been
> >> personally invited in multiple private Plan 9-related projects by some
> >> of the few proemiment members of this community that still write code.
> >> This has always been the norm; read 15 year old 9fans posts and find
> >> that the same attitude (and complaints) prevail.
> >
> > i'm not sure if you're complaining or bragging.
> >
> > but anyway, we're talking about current nix (which i take to mean
> > current 64-bit intel/amd development of any sort).
> >
> > so have you been invited to participate in private nix development?
>
> I've been invited. I'm too busy, and I feel like a dick, because I
> think it'd be a lot of fun. I'm happy that people are contributing.
>
> But I do wish that this list and the software produced by the people
> on it was more transparent. I'm sure nobody likes bitbucket or github
> here, but I'm pretty sure everyone would be happy with a 9p mount of
> ongoing development. It's amazing what commented changesets do for
> software engineering in organizations (public or private) to quell
> worries about those projects.
>
> --dho
>
> > - erik
> >
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[pmarin]

I thought all the discussion of how the development process should be
more open ended with the creation of 9front.
For me one of the best things about 9front is that I can follow all
the changes in the code by reading their mailing list.

pmarin

On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 6:36 AM, Bruce Ellis <bruce.ellis@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't really understand this thread. I thought it was a stupid flame war,
> in which case I can only say that I miss Boyd calling a spade a fucking
> shovel.
>
> I was disturbed by the claim that v10 had been lost because of bullshit, but
> said nothing.
>
> If indeed someone has lost their v10 I can replace it. If you are in
> australia it's easy. Contact me with the details of your import license and
> I will arrange for a copy on TK50 for you. I'm not allowed to
> export/sell/destroy it so I'm stuck with it. Nearly all of cmd is on the web
> anyway!
>
> And a complete rack of plan9 servers is a lot quieter, faster, and uses lest
> power than my Vax.
>
> But I digress, voting nemo Plan9 innovator of the month. Shoot me.
>
> brucee
>
>
> On 7 September 2013 14:06, Devon H. O'Dell <devon.odell@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> 2013/9/6 erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>:
>> >> > I created it I do what I want with it.
>> >>
>> >> I believe the rules are different when the work is research, sponsored
>> >> by public money. People are getting research grants to work on nix.
>> >
>> > who is getting grants to work on nix?
>> >
>> >> > as far as i know, there is no private nix development going on
>> >>
>> >> Who are you kidding. This is the norm around here. I have been
>> >> personally invited in multiple private Plan 9-related projects by some
>> >> of the few proemiment members of this community that still write code.
>> >> This has always been the norm; read 15 year old 9fans posts and find
>> >> that the same attitude (and complaints) prevail.
>> >
>> > i'm not sure if you're complaining or bragging.
>> >
>> > but anyway, we're talking about current nix (which i take to mean
>> > current 64-bit intel/amd development of any sort).
>> >
>> > so have you been invited to participate in private nix development?
>>
>> I've been invited. I'm too busy, and I feel like a dick, because I
>> think it'd be a lot of fun. I'm happy that people are contributing.
>>
>> But I do wish that this list and the software produced by the people
>> on it was more transparent. I'm sure nobody likes bitbucket or github
>> here, but I'm pretty sure everyone would be happy with a 9p mount of
>> ongoing development. It's amazing what commented changesets do for
>> software engineering in organizations (public or private) to quell
>> worries about those projects.
>>
>> --dho
>>
>> > - erik
>> >
>>
>

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Kurt H Maier]

Quoting Bruce Ellis <bruce.ellis@gmail.com>:

> I was disturbed by the claim that v10 had been lost because of bullshit,
> but said nothing.
>
> If indeed someone has lost their v10 I can replace it. If you are in
> australia it's easy. Contact me with the details of your import license and
> I will arrange for a copy on TK50 for you.

Sure!  Where do I get a license?


> I'm not allowed to
> export/sell/destroy it so I'm stuck with it. Nearly all of cmd is on the
> web anyway!

I don't suppose you have a url -- or you have one, but it's not ready
for Put yet.  Well, whenever you feel like sharing it with the world,
let us know.

> And a complete rack of plan9 servers is a lot quieter, faster, and uses
> lest power than my Vax.

Are you seriously suggesting there is interest in acquiring v10 for
practical purposes?  If there is v10 in production I'd love to know
about it; that would be an interesting envinronment I'd want to learn
more about.

> But I digress, voting nemo Plan9 innovator of the month. Shoot me.

In that case, I'm voting Stephanie Rawlings-Blake, mayor of Baltimore,
as the Plan9 innovator of the month.

As far as you know.

khm

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Bruce Ellis]

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I'm not sure how to negotiate this. Tiger says:

1) Go back to 1988.
2) Apply for a license.
3) Run it/enjoy it.
4) Stop being a dick

brucee


On 7 September 2013 23:21, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:

> Quoting Bruce Ellis <bruce.ellis@gmail.com>:
>
>  I was disturbed by the claim that v10 had been lost because of bullshit,
>> but said nothing.
>>
>> If indeed someone has lost their v10 I can replace it. If you are in
>> australia it's easy. Contact me with the details of your import license
>> and
>> I will arrange for a copy on TK50 for you.
>>
>
> Sure!  Where do I get a license?
>
>
>
>  I'm not allowed to
>> export/sell/destroy it so I'm stuck with it. Nearly all of cmd is on the
>> web anyway!
>>
>
> I don't suppose you have a url -- or you have one, but it's not ready for
> Put yet.  Well, whenever you feel like sharing it with the world, let us
> know.
>
>
>  And a complete rack of plan9 servers is a lot quieter, faster, and uses
>> lest power than my Vax.
>>
>
> Are you seriously suggesting there is interest in acquiring v10 for
> practical purposes?  If there is v10 in production I'd love to know about
> it; that would be an interesting envinronment I'd want to learn more about.
>
>
>  But I digress, voting nemo Plan9 innovator of the month. Shoot me.
>>
>
> In that case, I'm voting Stephanie Rawlings-Blake, mayor of Baltimore, as
> the Plan9 innovator of the month.
>
> As far as you know.
>
> khm
>
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Kurt H Maier]

Quoting Bruce Ellis <bruce.ellis@gmail.com>:

> I'm not sure how to negotiate this. Tiger says:
>
> 1) Go back to 1988.
> 2) Apply for a license.
> 3) Run it/enjoy it.
> 4) Stop being a dick
>
> brucee
>


I agree to these terms.  As soon as I can go back to 1988, I'll stop
being a dick.

khm

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Bruce Ellis]

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Not sure I believe you. Also. Stephen Jones runs v10 in Seattle. You may be
able to bribe him.

The manifest on the door of my vax may also help.

Attn:
G.R.Emlin
Room 2C501
600 Mountain Ave
Murray Hill, NJ 07974

You'll also need a mux terminal or 16. I have a Blit and a 5630. Stephen
has 5620s.

brucee


On 7 September 2013 23:33, Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:

> Quoting Bruce Ellis <bruce.ellis@gmail.com>:
>
>  I'm not sure how to negotiate this. Tiger says:
>>
>> 1) Go back to 1988.
>> 2) Apply for a license.
>> 3) Run it/enjoy it.
>> 4) Stop being a dick
>>
>> brucee
>>
>>
>
> I agree to these terms.  As soon as I can go back to 1988, I'll stop being
> a dick.
>
> khm
>
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Aram Hăvărneanu]

> we got not a single cent for nix. As far as lsub is concerned,
> it's been a free time effort.

You are seriously misrepresenting nix and/or yourself.

>From http://lsub.org:
  "Nix is joint work of Laboratorio de Sistemas with Bell Laboratories,
  Sandia National Labs, and Vitanuova."

Lsub is part of GSyC which is an academic institution funded with
public money. Sandia National Labs is funded by the DOE. People are
getting paid to work on nix. This is not "Nemo and his friends hack
on Plan 9" project. It that would be the case, using the lsub name
everywhere would constitute grave academic misconduct. You publish
papers with lsub credentials.

My personal projects are not my employers (in fact some people place
huge disclaimers stating that; I find the practice silly). Nix is
not a personal project. It's listed right there on the lsub page
along with other Plan 9-related project. Some of them even list
their grants:

  "Finnancial support, in part, by Spanish MCYT TIN2010-17344 and
  Madrid CAM S-2009/TIC-1692."

  "This work is supported in part by grants CAM CLOUDS S2009/TIC-1692
  and MCyTTIN-2007-67353-C02-02"

You are paid by your university to work on Plan 9-related projects.
It's part of your everyday job.

Let's take a look at other misinformation:

> Today it continues using a public development process, as described
> above.

It does not. It's done in secret. It wasn't always done like this.
For a short while, development was public. It stopped being public
when you (nemo) and Ron fighted and couldn't find common ground.
Then you took the toys and locked them in your fortress.

> there is no private nix development going on

Let's quote something from a recent nix paper:

  "We are grateful to Charles Forsyth for his advice regarding this
  work, and to the new Plan 9 secret society."

Ahem.

-- 
Aram Hăvărneanu

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Bruce Ellis]

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Hey. This has gone beyond useless and abusive. Go away. This list is not
for your spleen venting.

And... I found v10 (it was never lost).

brucee


On 7 September 2013 23:56, Aram Hăvărneanu <aram.h@mgk.ro> wrote:

> > we got not a single cent for nix. As far as lsub is concerned,
> > it's been a free time effort.
>
> You are seriously misrepresenting nix and/or yourself.
>
> From http://lsub.org:
>   "Nix is joint work of Laboratorio de Sistemas with Bell Laboratories,
>   Sandia National Labs, and Vitanuova."
>
> Lsub is part of GSyC which is an academic institution funded with
> public money. Sandia National Labs is funded by the DOE. People are
> getting paid to work on nix. This is not "Nemo and his friends hack
> on Plan 9" project. It that would be the case, using the lsub name
> everywhere would constitute grave academic misconduct. You publish
> papers with lsub credentials.
>
> My personal projects are not my employers (in fact some people place
> huge disclaimers stating that; I find the practice silly). Nix is
> not a personal project. It's listed right there on the lsub page
> along with other Plan 9-related project. Some of them even list
> their grants:
>
>   "Finnancial support, in part, by Spanish MCYT TIN2010-17344 and
>   Madrid CAM S-2009/TIC-1692."
>
>   "This work is supported in part by grants CAM CLOUDS S2009/TIC-1692
>   and MCyTTIN-2007-67353-C02-02"
>
> You are paid by your university to work on Plan 9-related projects.
> It's part of your everyday job.
>
> Let's take a look at other misinformation:
>
> > Today it continues using a public development process, as described
> > above.
>
> It does not. It's done in secret. It wasn't always done like this.
> For a short while, development was public. It stopped being public
> when you (nemo) and Ron fighted and couldn't find common ground.
> Then you took the toys and locked them in your fortress.
>
> > there is no private nix development going on
>
> Let's quote something from a recent nix paper:
>
>   "We are grateful to Charles Forsyth for his advice regarding this
>   work, and to the new Plan 9 secret society."
>
> Ahem.
>
> --
> Aram Hăvărneanu
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Latchesar Ionkov]

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Stop whining. If you want something done your way, do it yourself, or pay
somebody to do it.

If you think Nemo and his group (or anybody else) are not following the
grants' rules, complain to the funding organizations. I don't remember
seeing any funding coming with "researchers have to publish their work
hourly" rules, but I might be wrong.

    Lucho


On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 7:56 AM, Aram Hăvărneanu <aram.h@mgk.ro> wrote:

> > we got not a single cent for nix. As far as lsub is concerned,
> > it's been a free time effort.
>
> You are seriously misrepresenting nix and/or yourself.
>
> From http://lsub.org:
>   "Nix is joint work of Laboratorio de Sistemas with Bell Laboratories,
>   Sandia National Labs, and Vitanuova."
>
> Lsub is part of GSyC which is an academic institution funded with
> public money. Sandia National Labs is funded by the DOE. People are
> getting paid to work on nix. This is not "Nemo and his friends hack
> on Plan 9" project. It that would be the case, using the lsub name
> everywhere would constitute grave academic misconduct. You publish
> papers with lsub credentials.
>
> My personal projects are not my employers (in fact some people place
> huge disclaimers stating that; I find the practice silly). Nix is
> not a personal project. It's listed right there on the lsub page
> along with other Plan 9-related project. Some of them even list
> their grants:
>
>   "Finnancial support, in part, by Spanish MCYT TIN2010-17344 and
>   Madrid CAM S-2009/TIC-1692."
>
>   "This work is supported in part by grants CAM CLOUDS S2009/TIC-1692
>   and MCyTTIN-2007-67353-C02-02"
>
> You are paid by your university to work on Plan 9-related projects.
> It's part of your everyday job.
>
> Let's take a look at other misinformation:
>
> > Today it continues using a public development process, as described
> > above.
>
> It does not. It's done in secret. It wasn't always done like this.
> For a short while, development was public. It stopped being public
> when you (nemo) and Ron fighted and couldn't find common ground.
> Then you took the toys and locked them in your fortress.
>
> > there is no private nix development going on
>
> Let's quote something from a recent nix paper:
>
>   "We are grateful to Charles Forsyth for his advice regarding this
>   work, and to the new Plan 9 secret society."
>
> Ahem.
>
> --
> Aram Hăvărneanu
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Anthony Sorace]

>> I believe the rules are different when the work is research, sponsored
>> by public money. People are getting research grants to work on nix.
>
> who is getting grants to work on nix?

And how do I get in on that?

Someone tell me how to get money for working on nix and this thread
becomes useful.

Anthony

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Bruce Ellis]

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Perhaps by being qualified and having a substantial body of published
research and teaching under your belt.

Or out-source it.

brucee


On 8 September 2013 00:58, Anthony Sorace <a@9srv.net> wrote:

> >> I believe the rules are different when the work is research, sponsored
> >> by public money. People are getting research grants to work on nix.
> >
> > who is getting grants to work on nix?
>
> And how do I get in on that?
>
> Someone tell me how to get money for working on nix and this thread
> becomes useful.
>
> Anthony
>
>
>

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Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[tlaronde]

On Sat, Sep 07, 2013 at 10:58:08AM -0400, Anthony Sorace wrote:
>
> Someone tell me how to get money for working on nix and this thread
> becomes useful.
>

I guess that the answer is: provide your own.

This is the GPL plague: saying to developers that as long as they
provide gratis  something _they_ owes something to whom take it.
(Communism: give me your watch and, in fair exchange, I will tell you
what time it is.)

It's fortunate that it is still possible to make closed source
development, because, if it was not the case, I would have ceased
totally to write code---and, if I still publish open source, this is
because _I_ owe something to the developers who wrote code that _I_ use
(I owe to the Bell Labs for Unix and Plan9; to BSD CSRG; to D.E.K.; to
the original CERL GRASS developers etc.; counting, this is not a lot of
people...).

--
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[lucio]

> (Communism: give me your watch and, in fair exchange, I will tell you
> what time it is.)

The misunderstanding here is that conventional ownership does not
apply to intellectual "property"; in fact, it is not "property" at all
and we should stop treating it as if it was.

It is even harder to do any more than credit the body of knowledge on
which any item of intellectual property is based, and therein lies the
rub.  If I produce an Android killer application that makes me a
fortune, how much money is Linus Torvalds entitled to?

And then the other side: who gets punished for Assad using biochemical
weapons?

++L

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[tlaronde]

On Sat, Sep 07, 2013 at 05:46:24PM +0200, lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote:
> > (Communism: give me your watch and, in fair exchange, I will tell you
> > what time it is.)
>
> The misunderstanding here is that conventional ownership does not
> apply to intellectual "property";

The algorithms are "intellectual" (and a lot---a lot!---of what we use
now is due to men who lived centuries ago; who had thought about things
that were no use at the time and that we find ready, now, for
contempory use).

The "implementation" is not "intellectual"; it is an actual thing. And
whoever codes knows that there is a long way from a sketch or an
algorithm to something that works efficiently and reliably. (And there
is a multiplication of software "projects" that had a "fabulous! New!
Amazing! Cutting edge" "description"---the description of a
panacea---that had not produce anything actual, except billions of
losses.)

The "gratis" software has not been "gratis" for the ones who have
written it. It took time. The bulk of the difference is here.

--
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[erik quanstrom]

> [...] Nix is
> not a personal project. It's listed right there on the lsub page

one thing seems to be missed is that nix is the name for at least
two independent projects.

a brief history.  this is the best of my understanding.  please
correct me if i haven't credited folks properly.  i am sure there
are bits i don't know.

at one time there was unified open development on google code
(or whatever site it was).  this was based on the 9k work.
some of the participants felt that this wasn't working out
due to differences in direction, and the fact that hg was a pain.
so this split into a project called NxM and nix, which was
hosted at lsub using a patch-like process.  but lsub was interested
in some disruptive changes, and there was a conflicting desire for
a kernel to replace the 386 kernel.  so i moved this 386-replacement
kernel into 9atom.  we run exactly this code every day on ~32 machines.

9atom accepts patches (see /n/atom/plan9/rc/bin/apatch), there
is a mailing list for changes (sources@9atom.org) or if you prefer
/n/atom/patch.

> > there is no private nix development going on
>
> Let's quote something from a recent nix paper:
>
>   "We are grateful to Charles Forsyth for his advice regarding this
>   work, and to the new Plan 9 secret society."
>
> Ahem.

*WOOSH*.

this is an obvious joke.  see e.g. http://9fans.net/archive/2006/06/18

either that or you're just trolling.

- erik

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Sat, Sep 7, 2013, at 12:35 AM, Aram Hăvărneanu wrote:
> Everything is developed in secret without the involvment of any
> potential parties. Sure, everybody has the right to work in any way they
> like (except when the work is paid by public money), but you reap what
> youb sow. The lack of public interest in Plan 9 is due to this attitude.
> It has plagued the project from the very beginning.

I've always believed Plan 9's relative closedness is the reason we have
it as an example of a clean, well-designed operating system today. As
supporting evidence, compare OpenBSD, and contrast all the no-brain
rubbish being heaped up around Go. Theo de Raadt needs to be downright
nasty sometimes to keep the OpenBSD project from being swamped with
whiners and the reflex programming which keeps them quiet in the short
term but only feeds them in the long term. And sometimes the whiners'
own no-brain reflex programming.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like a hypothetical derivative of Plan 9 to
become popular. I just think that without a certain degree of
isolationism and NIH we would no longer have a design worthy of any
great interest. I think the relative closedness of Bell Labs has
achieved this very well, although of course if it were just two degrees
more closed we again wouldn't have this clean OS. 

The approach of publishing a fully maintained and working system but not
accepting crap, (as taken by OpenBSD and 9front,) generates much more
hate than the occasional license arguments over some closed relative of
the interesting if somewhat unmaintained system we have access to. In
#cat-v we almost every day have to talk down someone who wants something
broken, and a lot of the idiots get nasty. The guy who puts the most
care and politeness into his replies gets the most hate.

Apart from all that, there was a brief exchange on the subject of
getting Unix v10 in my favourite irc channel today, one which will
probably stick in my mind for a while.

A certain being said "this license crap is sickening."

I replied, "it's annoying, but i don't see how v10's source is more
important than plan 9."

The being responded by questioning what I meant by 'important'.

I was left staring at the screen in wonder, unable to comprehend what
relevance the question had to the subject. After a minute or so, I
thought I got a grip on it, and replied with this (grammar corrected):

"it would be nice to have additional examples of the workings of such
bright minds, but really there are more than a few such examples in Plan
9, and we have further examples in Go (esp. the initial release)."

To this, the entity replied to the effect that it wasn't about examples
of great minds, the only thing desired was the (apparently fornicating)
v10.

I asked why.

"historical interest. play around."

I.... what is this I don't even....... This... creature (child? doesn't
sound like one,) is "sickened" by his inability to get this thing just
to play with, with no indication that he has any desire to learn
anything from it or preserve it for posterity, or anything of any value
at all! I don't want to malign those who feel they would really benefit
from owning Unix v10, I just... had to relate this. I'm staggered. I
thought I had entitlement issues.

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[lucio]

> The "gratis" software has not been "gratis" for the ones who have
> written it. It took time. The bulk of the difference is here.

Sure, but we're still applying a modern metric to something that spans
history (intellect, whatever that is).

The fact that sales and marketing people make more money than
"inventors" says it all.  By all means demand an equitable share of
"profits" for your contribution to a product, but blocking others
access to the same (think about patents on gentic material) rates, in
my opinion, at the same level as selling religion.  In fact, I think
they are just different symptoms of the same disease.

Of course, the number of different issues that need to be taken into
account is much greater than the single item discussed here, but
anything that rewards greed ought to be treated, at minimum, with
great suspicion, not with veneration.

++L

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Ethan Grammatikidis]

On Sat, Sep 7, 2013, at 05:40 PM, lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote:
> Of course, the number of different issues that need to be taken into
> account is much greater than the single item discussed here, but
> anything that rewards greed ought to be treated, at minimum, with
> great suspicion, not with veneration.

One of Life's great lessons for me has been those who most loudly accuse
others of greed are themselves the most greedy. No position here is free
of greed, no side in any conflict ever is, and that renders discussion
of greed weak and potentially harmful.

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[tlaronde]

On Sat, Sep 07, 2013 at 06:40:48PM +0200, lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote:
> but anything that rewards greed ought to be treated, at minimum, with
> great suspicion, not with veneration.
>

This is exactly what I say: the user's greed wanting something for
nothing (neither money, nor time given, nor effort made) "ought to be
treated with great suspicion, not with veneration".

I'm against software patents (because one always take over from
previous ones; and because there is enough distance from idea to actual
working code; and because this is a mean for lawyers gangs). But I'm
against theft (I always buy CD and DVD; yes, I'm _the_ one...).

Imagine for example "gratis" music: here, you can download "gratis"...
the partitions! You have only to know how to read them; to work to be
able (or not...) to sing and to play. This is fair, no? What would be
the reaction? "What?!!!! You want me to make an effort?!!! To _work_?!!!
Fascism!!!!!"

KerTeX is downloadable for compilation (and I have eased it a lot).
Since I do not offer compiled tarballs to magically "have", a lot of the
people look, ... and go away...
--
        Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com>
                      http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Latchesar Ionkov]

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On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 10:28 AM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>wrote:


> *WOOSH*.
>
> this is an obvious joke.  see e.g. http://9fans.net/archive/2006/06/18
>
> either that or you're just trolling.
>
>
First secret societies, then private jokes? When are all these insults
going to end??? :)

    Lucho

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Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[lucio]

> One of Life's great lessons for me has been those who most loudly accuse
> others of greed are themselves the most greedy. No position here is free
> of greed, no side in any conflict ever is, and that renders discussion
> of greed weak and potentially harmful.

Sorry, can't resist.

There's a great difference between accusing anyone of greed and
treating greed as a beneficial virtue.  At least, in my book, there
is.

++L

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Gorka Guardiola]

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On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 3:56 PM, Aram Hăvărneanu <aram.h@mgk.ro> wrote:

> > we got not a single cent for nix. As far as lsub is concerned,
> > it's been a free time effort.
>
> You are seriously misrepresenting nix and/or yourself.
>
> From http://lsub.org:
>   "Nix is joint work of Laboratorio de Sistemas with Bell Laboratories,
>   Sandia National Labs, and Vitanuova."
>
> Lsub is part of GSyC which is an academic institution funded with
> public money. Sandia National Labs is funded by the DOE. People are
> getting paid to work on nix. This is not "Nemo and his friends hack
> on Plan 9" project. It that would be the case, using the lsub name
> everywhere would constitute grave academic misconduct. You publish
> papers with lsub credentials.


> My personal projects are not my employers (in fact some people place
> huge disclaimers stating that; I find the practice silly). Nix is
> not a personal project. It's listed right there on the lsub page
> along with other Plan 9-related project. Some of them even list
> their grants:
>
>   "Finnancial support, in part, by Spanish MCYT TIN2010-17344 and
>   Madrid CAM S-2009/TIC-1692."
>
>   "This work is supported in part by grants CAM CLOUDS S2009/TIC-1692
>   and MCyTTIN-2007-67353-C02-02"
>
You are paid by your university to work on Plan 9-related projects.
> It's part of your everyday job.
>
>
These are projects that were funded, the work was done and published and
the code
made public.  BTW, the pressure is to patent everything and keep everything
under University IP,
and private not the other way round.

Nix today is completely unfunded and anything done is done in free time for
free,
at least on the lsub side (Erik is doing stuff with it too, and that is
funded by Coraid).

The fact that people from lsub may continue to work in Nix in their free
time does not give
you or anyone the right to anything. I am sorry if that makes you angry or
you find that
insulting.

Neither the lsub or GSyC or the University own all of its members´ free
time, and as member of
the three, we can give this free time/code to either or none.

You have no idea how much the University pays us or what part of this is
is our job, so please stop talking about what you don´t know.
If, nevertheless, you have any complaints than any of us are not doing our
jobs, please do take them
to the University (make sure you speak Spanish and have lots of time to
fill paperwork first).


> Let's take a look at other misinformation:
>
> > Today it continues using a public development process, as described
> > above.
>

We didn't have enough people or time to curate patches, publish them and
take care of
everything. But if you offering to sponsor us...


> It does not. It's done in secret. It wasn't always done like this.
> For a short while, development was public. It stopped being public
> when you (nemo) and Ron fighted and couldn't find common ground.
> Then you took the toys and locked them in your fortress.
>

Many things have happened in the past. People have their differences and
fork (nxm spanned
from that like 9front). Other times they collaborate. It is human nature.
Sometimes, as a consequence
a group working together fractures and ends up not being able to do some of
the stuff
they did.

Lsub has in the past produced much software which has been made public at
one point or the other.
We are only three people with other work to do, and we cannot maintain
infrastructure which we don´t
find useful ourselves.


>
> > there is no private nix development going on
>
> Let's quote something from a recent nix paper:
>
>   "We are grateful to Charles Forsyth for his advice regarding this
>   work, and to the new Plan 9 secret society."
>
> Ahem.
>
>
Next time we are thanking Cthulhu, it will make for better trolling.


G.

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Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[lucio]

> There's a great difference between accusing anyone of greed and
> treating greed as a beneficial virtue.  At least, in my book, there
> is.

... or a destructive vice, that's the subject being discussed: not who is
greedy or otherwise.

++L

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Christopher Nielsen]

FWIW, I feel the same way as Steve. I only release code that I feel is
going to be useful to others. Sometimes I am simply experimenting and
the code isn't worth releasing.

On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 4:00 PM, Francisco J Ballesteros <nemo@lsub.org> wrote:
> I think its almost ready at least to
> try and take a look, I will try to
> put out a copy next week,
> unless other authors ask me not to.
>
> any useful bit for "production" usage
> will be shared, anyway, we have always done it
> that way.
>
> In short, I agree 100% with Steve.
>
> On Sep 6, 2013, at 10:27 AM, "Steve Simon" <steve@quintile.net> wrote:
>
>>> Aram's point, obviously, is not that working on nix is insulting.
>>> Pretending you are a better judge than the whole world on whether
>>> something is 'ready to be shared' is insulting.  Unless you have
>>> lawyers pointing metaophorical guns at your job, in which case just
>>> say that.
>>
>> Good grief, I write lots of code for plan9, only some of which I decide
>> is successfull and well written enough to release. This is my choice
>> and only mine, I created it I do what I want with it.
>>
>> I don't believe any different rules apply to nemo.
>>
>> If somone where to priviately, politely ask him off-line asking
>> for a copy of the work in progress he might be willing to share,
>> though he might not, I don't know what state this code is in or how
>> he feels about what has been written.
>>
>> Fundamentally I don't understand how people beleive they can complain
>> when they don't have access to other peoples private work.
>>
>> Don't get me wrong, I am all for sharing code but its to authors right
>> to decide not to share if they wish.
>>
>> -Steve
>



--
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary safety, deserve
neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the
blood of patriots & tyrants." --Thomas Jefferson

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Charles Forsyth]

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On 7 September 2013 14:56, Aram Hăvărneanu <aram.h@mgk.ro> wrote:

> Let's quote something from a recent nix paper:
>
>   "We are grateful to Charles Forsyth for his advice regarding this
>   work, and to the new Plan 9 secret society."
>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTwnwbG9YLE

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Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Matthew Veety]

You have to look on the bright side here guys: the fact that its secret makes it more tantalizing, and it will be cooler when released. It's like presents.

Veety

Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Charles Forsyth]

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On 8 September 2013 00:47, Matthew Veety <mveety@gmail.com> wrote:

> the fact that its secret


It isn't really secret. We went back more than a few steps earlier in the
year, which is one reason it would
not be useful at all in its current state. At the moment, it is not, by any
means, a series of incremental improvements
that could simply be checked in to hg or published on a 9p server. At times
it can go many days
before it can even be recompiled, let alone run, because old fundamental
structures have
been re-organised. Large chunks are in flux. Although Nemo was working
steadily
away, after some initial work, I was bound up with another project (that
has nearly finished),
which meant I couldn't even review and consider some of the changes until
early August.
Then there was an August break, although I did manage to do some work on it
of interest to me.
Meanwhile, the other project I mentioned has changed my priorities, so I
anticipate more churn.

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Re: [9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Bruce Ellis]

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Why?

Why the angst? Nix is cool. And the nonexistent demons will release
something cool.

Now getting back to the lost v10 - which I think is a much more interesting
topic. (There work is much more interesting, I guess mine is challenging).

I have to go to Canberra to sort this out. Got the microvax in a Kombi and
we are at Goulburn, half way there.

Perfect time to do the right thing, with a grin. Newly elected govt.

You want it, you pay the freight, and maybe something to University of
Madrid - it's nice there..

brucsee




On 8 September 2013 10:19, Charles Forsyth <charles.forsyth@gmail.com>wrote:

>
> On 8 September 2013 00:47, Matthew Veety <mveety@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> the fact that its secret
>
>
> It isn't really secret. We went back more than a few steps earlier in the
> year, which is one reason it would
> not be useful at all in its current state. At the moment, it is not, by
> any means, a series of incremental improvements
> that could simply be checked in to hg or published on a 9p server. At
> times it can go many days
> before it can even be recompiled, let alone run, because old fundamental
> structures have
> been re-organised. Large chunks are in flux. Although Nemo was working
> steadily
> away, after some initial work, I was bound up with another project (that
> has nearly finished),
> which meant I couldn't even review and consider some of the changes until
> early August.
> Then there was an August break, although I did manage to do some work on
> it of interest to me.
> Meanwhile, the other project I mentioned has changed my priorities, so I
> anticipate more churn.
>

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[9fans] Closed nix development is an insult

[Terry Wendt]

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Ok, I am "The Official Village Idiot", but I always assumed  that if you
wanted a piece of software you could write it yourself?  Or at least learn
how to contribute to writing it?  Or maybe find several tools to pipe
together and script a little and maybe get what you needed done done?

Of course it's much more fun to throw a worm out there and see who will try
to bite?

Still laughing!
Cheers,
Terry.

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