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* Plan 9 in Brazil
@ 2020-05-02  8:52 Iruatã Souza
  2020-05-02 16:31 ` [9fans] " Robert Sherwood
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Iruatã Souza @ 2020-05-02  8:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

Hi,

For the Plan 9 historians/archaeologists, yesterday I found this
https://archive.org/details/Geek008.

Geek was a very popular monthly magazine distributed with a CD packed
with software.
This was 2002 and dial-up internet was still the norm in Brazil. As
far as I know, this is how Plan 9 was first presented to us
Brazilians. For sure, it was the first time I got my hands on it.

iru

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil
  2020-05-02  8:52 Plan 9 in Brazil Iruatã Souza
@ 2020-05-02 16:31 ` Robert Sherwood
  2020-08-29 17:25   ` Leonardo
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Robert Sherwood @ 2020-05-02 16:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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That is very cool!

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 4:54 AM Iruatã Souza <iru.muzgo@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> For the Plan 9 historians/archaeologists, yesterday I found this
> https://archive.org/details/Geek008.
>
> Geek was a very popular monthly magazine distributed with a CD packed
> with software.
> This was 2002 and dial-up internet was still the norm in Brazil. As
> far as I know, this is how Plan 9 was first presented to us
> Brazilians. For sure, it was the first time I got my hands on it.
>
> iru
>
> ------------------------------------------
> 9fans: 9fans
> Permalink:
> https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T46e6d1465ae13031-Md71508a751883b2321ab3a83
> Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil
  2020-05-02 16:31 ` [9fans] " Robert Sherwood
@ 2020-08-29 17:25   ` Leonardo
  2020-08-29 17:43     ` Wes Kussmaul
                       ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Leonardo @ 2020-08-29 17:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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Cool!

I want to make a Plan 9 distro aimed at brazilians: I'm at the beginning of this journey. My plan is to translate all the documentation (articles and man pages), try to make the system more user friendly (not for hackers but for common people) and also work in ordinary software like a modern browser, a word processor, spreadsheet software, a kind of powerpoint etc.

I am studying Plan 9 and I am totally in love with it: read files, write to files and again: read files, write to files. And what else do you need to do? Little or nothing: things are really simple. The NSA invented SELinux (mandatory access control) because it saw that, from a security point of view, the idea of discretionary access control did not provide much. Okay, it's an idea and it works. But Plan 9, before, had introduced the idea of namespace which is, by the way, a much simpler and smarter idea: each process can have its own restricted view of the universe of files. I really don't understand why Plan 9 has not been adopted. Legacy base?

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* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil
  2020-08-29 17:25   ` Leonardo
@ 2020-08-29 17:43     ` Wes Kussmaul
  2020-08-29 18:36       ` Leonardo
  2020-08-29 21:10       ` Kurt H Maier
  2020-08-29 19:54     ` Iruatã Souza
  2020-08-29 21:30     ` ori
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Wes Kussmaul @ 2020-08-29 17:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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On 8/29/20 1:25 PM, Leonardo wrote:
> I really don't understand why Plan 9 has not been adopted. Legacy base?

By giving a lot of control to the user Plan 9 and its derivatives 
undermine the Silicon Valley business model, which is built upon 
breaking into your information home, taking your personal intellectual 
property, and putting it on their balance sheets as a money making 
asset. In other words, burglary and theft.

-- 

Please note that my presentation at the International Cryptographic

Module Conference ICMC 2020 
<https://icmconference.org/?session=measuring-the-reliability-of-an-identity-claim-g13c> 
has been rescheduled to September 16.

*Wes Kussmaul*

*Reliable Identities, Inc.*
an Authenticity Enterprise
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451 USA
t: +1 781 790 1674
m: +1 781 330 1881
e: wes@ReliableID.com <mailto:wes@ReliableID.com>

Learn About Authenticity <http://authenticityworks.video/>

This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise 
protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have 
received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it 
from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents 
to anyone. The integrity and security of this message cannot be assured 
unless it is digitally signed by the PEN of an identity certificate with 
an IDQA score that is sufficient for your purposes.




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* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil
  2020-08-29 17:43     ` Wes Kussmaul
@ 2020-08-29 18:36       ` Leonardo
  2020-08-29 19:51         ` Wes Kussmaul
  2020-08-29 21:10       ` Kurt H Maier
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Leonardo @ 2020-08-29 18:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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Metcapitalism, an evil even worse than socialism: this is why the technology giants have also become ideology giants.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil
  2020-08-29 18:36       ` Leonardo
@ 2020-08-29 19:51         ` Wes Kussmaul
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Wes Kussmaul @ 2020-08-29 19:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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On 8/29/20 2:36 PM, Leonardo wrote:
> Metcapitalism, an evil even worse than socialism: this is why the 
> technology giants have also become ideology giants.

There is a way to shut off the water supply to metacapitalism.

This is off topic here, so email me if you want to have this discussion.

(Or read my books... :))


Please note that my presentation at the International Cryptographic

Module Conference ICMC 2020 
<https://icmconference.org/?session=measuring-the-reliability-of-an-identity-claim-g13c> 
has been rescheduled to September 16.

*Wes Kussmaul*

*Reliable Identities, Inc.*
an Authenticity Enterprise
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451 USA
t: +1 781 790 1674
m: +1 781 330 1881
e: wes@ReliableID.com <mailto:wes@ReliableID.com>

Learn About Authenticity <http://authenticityworks.video/>

This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise 
protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have 
received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it 
from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents 
to anyone. The integrity and security of this message cannot be assured 
unless it is digitally signed by the PEN of an identity certificate with 
an IDQA score that is sufficient for your purposes.




[-- Attachment #2.1: Type: text/html, Size: 4559 bytes --]

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil
  2020-08-29 17:25   ` Leonardo
  2020-08-29 17:43     ` Wes Kussmaul
@ 2020-08-29 19:54     ` Iruatã Souza
  2020-08-29 21:03       ` Lucas Francesco
                         ` (2 more replies)
  2020-08-29 21:30     ` ori
  2 siblings, 3 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Iruatã Souza @ 2020-08-29 19:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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Le sam. 29 août 2020 à 19:26, Leonardo <leonardohcoelho@gmail.com> a écrit :

> Cool!
>
> I want to make a Plan 9 distro aimed at brazilians: I'm at the beginning
> of this journey. My plan is to translate all the documentation (articles
> and man pages), try to make the system more user friendly (not for hackers
> but for common people) and also work in ordinary software like a modern
> browser, a word processor, spreadsheet software, a kind of powerpoint etc.
>
>
As another historical note, for a number of years (2006 to 2009 iirc) Plan
9 reached the peak of 3 regular users in Brazil. Others came and went, but
those 3 are responsible for at least abaco, the initial python port, and
the initial work into what is now the 9front bootloader.

So, Leonardo, welcome aboard :)

Besides translation, what are the Brazilian-specific needs you are trying
to address?
I highly recommend you search the list for other projects similar to yours.

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck in the journey!

iru


> I am studying Plan 9 and I am totally in love with it: read files, write
> to files and again: read files, write to files. And what else do you need
> to do? Little or nothing: things are really simple. The NSA invented
> SELinux (mandatory access control) because it saw that, from a security
> point of view, the idea of discretionary access control did not provide
> much. Okay, it's an idea and it works. But Plan 9, before, had introduced
> the idea of namespace which is, by the way, a much simpler and smarter
> idea: each process can have its own restricted view of the universe of
> files. I really don't understand why Plan 9 has not been adopted. Legacy
> base?
> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T46e6d1465ae13031-M8490c19706ca2b01a4b229aa>
>

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* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil
  2020-08-29 19:54     ` Iruatã Souza
@ 2020-08-29 21:03       ` Lucas Francesco
  2020-08-29 22:09         ` Iruatã Souza
  2020-08-31  2:52         ` Leonardo
  2020-08-29 21:19       ` Lucas Francesco
  2020-08-30 16:53       ` Leonardo
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Lucas Francesco @ 2020-08-29 21:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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I think we're way beyond the peak of 3 if consider non 9labs, as I'm a
brazillian myself and have been using 9front for almost 2y, and have been
slowly introducing my brother and my current mate to it.

Leo, best of luck on the distro though, I'd really like 9 to be
niche-popular but I don't think translating stuff is the way to go, if it
wasn't for covid I was going to start  lecturing about it at the uni I'm in
but with prior warnings that all the content is in English.

Lucas

Em sáb, 29 de ago de 2020 16:55, Iruatã Souza <iru.muzgo@gmail.com>
escreveu:

> Le sam. 29 août 2020 à 19:26, Leonardo <leonardohcoelho@gmail.com> a
> écrit :
>
>> Cool!
>>
>> I want to make a Plan 9 distro aimed at brazilians: I'm at the beginning
>> of this journey. My plan is to translate all the documentation (articles
>> and man pages), try to make the system more user friendly (not for hackers
>> but for common people) and also work in ordinary software like a modern
>> browser, a word processor, spreadsheet software, a kind of powerpoint etc.
>>
>>
> As another historical note, for a number of years (2006 to 2009 iirc) Plan
> 9 reached the peak of 3 regular users in Brazil. Others came and went, but
> those 3 are responsible for at least abaco, the initial python port, and
> the initial work into what is now the 9front bootloader.
>
> So, Leonardo, welcome aboard :)
>
> Besides translation, what are the Brazilian-specific needs you are trying
> to address?
> I highly recommend you search the list for other projects similar to yours.
>
> Anyway, I wish you the best of luck in the journey!
>
> iru
>
>
>> I am studying Plan 9 and I am totally in love with it: read files, write
>> to files and again: read files, write to files. And what else do you need
>> to do? Little or nothing: things are really simple. The NSA invented
>> SELinux (mandatory access control) because it saw that, from a security
>> point of view, the idea of discretionary access control did not provide
>> much. Okay, it's an idea and it works. But Plan 9, before, had introduced
>> the idea of namespace which is, by the way, a much simpler and smarter
>> idea: each process can have its own restricted view of the universe of
>> files. I really don't understand why Plan 9 has not been adopted. Legacy
>> base?
>>
> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T46e6d1465ae13031-M145ee0c4cd2443797bc0ec70>
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil
  2020-08-29 17:43     ` Wes Kussmaul
  2020-08-29 18:36       ` Leonardo
@ 2020-08-29 21:10       ` Kurt H Maier
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Kurt H Maier @ 2020-08-29 21:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 01:43:49PM -0400, Wes Kussmaul wrote:
> 
> On 8/29/20 1:25 PM, Leonardo wrote:
> > I really don't understand why Plan 9 has not been adopted. Legacy base?
> 
> By giving a lot of control to the user Plan 9 and its derivatives 
> undermine the Silicon Valley business model, which is built upon 
> breaking into your information home, taking your personal intellectual 
> property, and putting it on their balance sheets as a money making 
> asset. In other words, burglary and theft.

I'm with you on the topic of the ethical void rampant in a lot of SV
tech companies, but this take is off the mark.  SV businesses trade on
convenience; it's only late-stage multinationals that attempt to
leverage monopoly to remove user control.  Fortunately by that stage
they're poorly enough run that internal competition leads to senescense
and new challengers introduce choice again.  It happened to Nokia,
IBM, Microsoft, and it's currently happening to Google, but all of them
got to that late stage by selling stuff people wanted, not alone by
being jerks.

The new model is to burn venture capital to get that market control, 
but the same principal applies:  by the time you're big enough to exert
sufficient force to exploit a monopoly, you're sufficiently large that
internal competition prevents you from operating efficiently.  

I think AT&T's sense of entitlement regarding their IP, combined with
the fact that Plan 9 was never presented as a consumer-facing product
(it was a research platform) had more to do with any lack of uptake.  In
other words, had it proved popular, the vultures would have arrived and
done the same things they do on most platforms.  In this case, better
roosts had appeared by the time Plan 9 became something the vultures 
considered to be worth exploiting.

I am grateful to the people who put effort into letting us have the code
regardless of whatever we might imagine their motivations are.  I'm glad
we have access and that the access we have lets us shoot for whatever
targets align with our priorities.

khm

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil
  2020-08-29 19:54     ` Iruatã Souza
  2020-08-29 21:03       ` Lucas Francesco
@ 2020-08-29 21:19       ` Lucas Francesco
  2020-08-29 22:04         ` Iruatã Souza
  2020-08-30 16:53       ` Leonardo
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Lucas Francesco @ 2020-08-29 21:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

>As another historical note, for a number of years (2006 to 2009 iirc) Plan 9 reached the peak of 3 regular users in Brazil. Others came and went, but those 3 are responsible for at least abaco, the initial python port, and the initial work into what is now the 9front bootloader.

Also another note: from what I know fgb ( as you mention Abaco and he
is the creator) Is argentinian, and Argentina isn't Brazillian
territory, yet. I know "responsible" can have a different
connotation/implication than creator, so i'd love to hear some
clarification if there's a backstory though.

I have no idea about the current 9front bootloader, and would love to
hear notes about who did it, thanks to bringing it to light.

Lucas

Em sáb., 29 de ago. de 2020 às 16:55, Iruatã Souza
<iru.muzgo@gmail.com> escreveu:
>
> Le sam. 29 août 2020 à 19:26, Leonardo <leonardohcoelho@gmail.com> a écrit :
>>
>> Cool!
>>
>> I want to make a Plan 9 distro aimed at brazilians: I'm at the beginning of this journey. My plan is to translate all the documentation (articles and man pages), try to make the system more user friendly (not for hackers but for common people) and also work in ordinary software like a modern browser, a word processor, spreadsheet software, a kind of powerpoint etc.
>>
>
> As another historical note, for a number of years (2006 to 2009 iirc) Plan 9 reached the peak of 3 regular users in Brazil. Others came and went, but those 3 are responsible for at least abaco, the initial python port, and the initial work into what is now the 9front bootloader.
>
> So, Leonardo, welcome aboard :)
>
> Besides translation, what are the Brazilian-specific needs you are trying to address?
> I highly recommend you search the list for other projects similar to yours.
>
> Anyway, I wish you the best of luck in the journey!
>
> iru
>
>>
>> I am studying Plan 9 and I am totally in love with it: read files, write to files and again: read files, write to files. And what else do you need to do? Little or nothing: things are really simple. The NSA invented SELinux (mandatory access control) because it saw that, from a security point of view, the idea of discretionary access control did not provide much. Okay, it's an idea and it works. But Plan 9, before, had introduced the idea of namespace which is, by the way, a much simpler and smarter idea: each process can have its own restricted view of the universe of files. I really don't understand why Plan 9 has not been adopted. Legacy base?
>
> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil
  2020-08-29 17:25   ` Leonardo
  2020-08-29 17:43     ` Wes Kussmaul
  2020-08-29 19:54     ` Iruatã Souza
@ 2020-08-29 21:30     ` ori
  2020-09-01 11:52       ` Ethan Gardener
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: ori @ 2020-08-29 21:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> I really don't understand why Plan 9 has not been adopted. Legacy base?

Porting software is expensive and time consuming. Unix
mostly works. On top of that, Unix has many features.
Bolted on in ways that don't fit, but features that
aren't provided by Plan 9 tools, nonetheless.

When given a familiar but ugly environment with more
features, which requires less work to get their familiar
software running, what do you expect the result to be?


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil
  2020-08-29 21:19       ` Lucas Francesco
@ 2020-08-29 22:04         ` Iruatã Souza
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Iruatã Souza @ 2020-08-29 22:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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Le sam. 29 août 2020 à 23:21, Lucas Francesco <lucas.francesco93@gmail.com>
a écrit :

> >As another historical note, for a number of years (2006 to 2009 iirc)
> Plan 9 reached the peak of 3 regular users in Brazil. Others came and went,
> but those 3 are responsible for at least abaco, the initial python port,
> and the initial work into what is now the 9front bootloader.
>
> Also another note: from what I know fgb ( as you mention Abaco and he
> is the creator) Is argentinian, and Argentina isn't Brazillian
> territory, yet. I know "responsible" can have a different
> connotation/implication than creator, so i'd love to hear some
> clarification if there's a backstory though.
>

Fgb is indeed Argentinian, but speaks perfect Portuguese and lived for a
number of years in Brazil. Also, at least for a part of the timespan I
mentioned he lived in Brazil (we even lived in the same street for a
month!) That's why I considered him as one of the regular users in Brazil.

I have no idea about the current 9front bootloader, and would love to
> hear notes about who did it, thanks to bringing it to light.
>

I am the one who did the early work on it. The ideas have been presented in
http://4e.iwp9.org/papers/9null.pdf.


Lucas
>
> Em sáb., 29 de ago. de 2020 às 16:55, Iruatã Souza
> <iru.muzgo@gmail.com> escreveu:
> >
> > Le sam. 29 août 2020 à 19:26, Leonardo <leonardohcoelho@gmail.com> a
> écrit :
> >>
> >> Cool!
> >>
> >> I want to make a Plan 9 distro aimed at brazilians: I'm at the
> beginning of this journey. My plan is to translate all the documentation
> (articles and man pages), try to make the system more user friendly (not
> for hackers but for common people) and also work in ordinary software like
> a modern browser, a word processor, spreadsheet software, a kind of
> powerpoint etc.
> >>
> >
> > As another historical note, for a number of years (2006 to 2009 iirc)
> Plan 9 reached the peak of 3 regular users in Brazil. Others came and went,
> but those 3 are responsible for at least abaco, the initial python port,
> and the initial work into what is now the 9front bootloader.
> >
> > So, Leonardo, welcome aboard :)
> >
> > Besides translation, what are the Brazilian-specific needs you are
> trying to address?
> > I highly recommend you search the list for other projects similar to
> yours.
> >
> > Anyway, I wish you the best of luck in the journey!
> >
> > iru
> >
> >>
> >> I am studying Plan 9 and I am totally in love with it: read files,
> write to files and again: read files, write to files. And what else do you
> need to do? Little or nothing: things are really simple. The NSA invented
> SELinux (mandatory access control) because it saw that, from a security
> point of view, the idea of discretionary access control did not provide
> much. Okay, it's an idea and it works. But Plan 9, before, had introduced
> the idea of namespace which is, by the way, a much simpler and smarter
> idea: each process can have its own restricted view of the universe of
> files. I really don't understand why Plan 9 has not been adopted. Legacy
> base?
> >
> > 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options
> Permalink
>
> ------------------------------------------
> 9fans: 9fans
> Permalink:
> https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T46e6d1465ae13031-M74c87e08e3038792f2004ac9
> Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil
  2020-08-29 21:03       ` Lucas Francesco
@ 2020-08-29 22:09         ` Iruatã Souza
  2020-08-31  2:52         ` Leonardo
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Iruatã Souza @ 2020-08-29 22:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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Le sam. 29 août 2020 à 23:02, Lucas Francesco <lucas.francesco93@gmail.com>
a écrit :

> I think we're way beyond the peak of 3 if consider non 9labs, as I'm a
> brazillian myself and have been using 9front for almost 2y, and have been
> slowly introducing my brother and my current mate to it.
>

I'm glad to hear that! The 3 persons back then were Federico Benavento
(fgb), Felipe Bichued and I.


> Leo, best of luck on the distro though, I'd really like 9 to be
> niche-popular but I don't think translating stuff is the way to go, if it
> wasn't for covid I was going to start  lecturing about it at the uni I'm in
> but with prior warnings that all the content is in English.
>
> Lucas
>
> Em sáb, 29 de ago de 2020 16:55, Iruatã Souza <iru.muzgo@gmail.com>
> escreveu:
>
>> Le sam. 29 août 2020 à 19:26, Leonardo <leonardohcoelho@gmail.com> a
>> écrit :
>>
>>> Cool!
>>>
>>> I want to make a Plan 9 distro aimed at brazilians: I'm at the beginning
>>> of this journey. My plan is to translate all the documentation (articles
>>> and man pages), try to make the system more user friendly (not for hackers
>>> but for common people) and also work in ordinary software like a modern
>>> browser, a word processor, spreadsheet software, a kind of powerpoint etc.
>>>
>>>
>> As another historical note, for a number of years (2006 to 2009 iirc)
>> Plan 9 reached the peak of 3 regular users in Brazil. Others came and went,
>> but those 3 are responsible for at least abaco, the initial python port,
>> and the initial work into what is now the 9front bootloader.
>>
>> So, Leonardo, welcome aboard :)
>>
>> Besides translation, what are the Brazilian-specific needs you are trying
>> to address?
>> I highly recommend you search the list for other projects similar to
>> yours.
>>
>> Anyway, I wish you the best of luck in the journey!
>>
>> iru
>>
>>
>>> I am studying Plan 9 and I am totally in love with it: read files, write
>>> to files and again: read files, write to files. And what else do you need
>>> to do? Little or nothing: things are really simple. The NSA invented
>>> SELinux (mandatory access control) because it saw that, from a security
>>> point of view, the idea of discretionary access control did not provide
>>> much. Okay, it's an idea and it works. But Plan 9, before, had introduced
>>> the idea of namespace which is, by the way, a much simpler and smarter
>>> idea: each process can have its own restricted view of the universe of
>>> files. I really don't understand why Plan 9 has not been adopted. Legacy
>>> base?
>>>
>> *9fans <https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest>* / 9fans / see discussions
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans> + participants
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members> + delivery options
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription> Permalink
> <https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T46e6d1465ae13031-Mf20312e202af52b60c3f1920>
>

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* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil
  2020-08-29 19:54     ` Iruatã Souza
  2020-08-29 21:03       ` Lucas Francesco
  2020-08-29 21:19       ` Lucas Francesco
@ 2020-08-30 16:53       ` Leonardo
  2020-08-30 19:40         ` Iruatã Souza
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Leonardo @ 2020-08-30 16:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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On Saturday, 29 August 2020, at 4:55 PM, Iruatã Souza wrote:
> As another historical note, for a number of years (2006 to 2009 iirc) Plan 9 reached the peak of 3 regular users in Brazil. Others came and went, but those 3 are responsible for at least abaco, the initial python port, and the initial work into what is now the 9front bootloader.
> 
> So, Leonardo, welcome aboard :)
> 
> Besides translation, what are the Brazilian-specific needs you are trying to address?
> I highly recommend you search the list for other projects similar to yours.
> 
> Anyway, I wish you the best of luck in the journey!

Hi, Iru. Thank you for welcome and congragulations on your work.

Regarding the few regular users, I think this is not only because Plan 9 is considered a research system but also because it looks like a system for fans or enthusiast or even experts (although it's a system where the simplicity of conceptions is the essence).

The guys (and girls!) at 9front do an admirable job of fixing bugs in the kernel, compilers and key libraries and that's priceless: it's a very technical and time-consuming job. We should be grateful for the work they do. And it helps a lot: they do a job that nobody usually wants to do. So, with this support that they give to the community, it is possible to think about developing other things. You're a contributor, I saw your name there. Thank you!

Beside translation I'd like to make the system more user friendly (again: for common people not for experts): and this is the most important thing. In fact, I'd like to make Plan 9 a usable system for personal purposes, so that I can use it and, of course, share what I can do. For example, I feel that for many experts a program like notepad is software for idiots: I don't think so. The guy must think: I am an expert and my world is the command line. Okay. Maybe your sister is not an expert (a hacker and a command-line enthusiast) and maybe the notepad was useful for her. I personally like the notepad and I don't have problem with buttons either: I don't think just idiots like buttons.  By the way, I think that notepad is much more Unix-like than a lot of software celebrated in the Unix universe. It is a graphics program, with a resolute interface, which is only used to read and edit plain text files. What else does he do? You can search and replace strings too. And what else? Nothing more.



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* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil
  2020-08-30 16:53       ` Leonardo
@ 2020-08-30 19:40         ` Iruatã Souza
  2020-08-31  1:29           ` Leonardo
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Iruatã Souza @ 2020-08-30 19:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 6:54 PM Leonardo <leonardohcoelho@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Saturday, 29 August 2020, at 4:55 PM, Iruatã Souza wrote:
>
> As another historical note, for a number of years (2006 to 2009 iirc) Plan 9 reached the peak of 3 regular users in Brazil. Others came and went, but those 3 are responsible for at least abaco, the initial python port, and the initial work into what is now the 9front bootloader.
>
> So, Leonardo, welcome aboard :)
>
> Besides translation, what are the Brazilian-specific needs you are trying to address?
> I highly recommend you search the list for other projects similar to yours.
>
> Anyway, I wish you the best of luck in the journey!
>
>
> Hi, Iru. Thank you for welcome and congragulations on your work.
>
> Regarding the few regular users, I think this is not only because Plan 9 is considered a research system but also because it looks like a system for fans or enthusiast or even experts (although it's a system where the simplicity of conceptions is the essence).
>

Wouldn't that be true for any software that somehow diverges from the
conventional/mainstream practices?

>
> The guys (and girls!) at 9front do an admirable job of fixing bugs in the kernel, compilers and key libraries and that's priceless: it's a very technical and time-consuming job. We should be grateful for the work they do. And it helps a lot: they do a job that nobody usually wants to do. So, with this support that they give to the community, it is possible to think about developing other things. You're a contributor, I saw your name there. Thank you!
>
> Beside translation I'd like to make the system more user friendly (again: for common people not for experts): and this is the most important thing. In fact, I'd like to make Plan 9 a usable system for personal purposes, so that I can use it and, of course, share what I can do.
>

User-friendliness is difficult to establish precisely. On the other
hand, personal needs don't require any precise definition. In fact, as
far as I understand, most of the 9front contributions address direct
and concrete needs, usually related to the person writing the code.

If I may offer advice, assuming you won't be receiving any external
incentive (e.g. money) to conduct your project, writing
software/documentation to meet your own needs seems a more productive
start. Then, in doing that, you'll probably stumble upon more general
problems the solutions of which may eventually help others.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil
  2020-08-30 19:40         ` Iruatã Souza
@ 2020-08-31  1:29           ` Leonardo
  2020-08-31  1:32             ` Kurt H Maier
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Leonardo @ 2020-08-31  1:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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> Wouldn't that be true for any software that somehow diverges from the
conventional/mainstream practices?
That's true for common people, indeed.

> User-friendliness is difficult to establish precisely.
Yes, it's an abstract and subjective thing, but on average we know what is.  For example, have commandline as unique option for restart or shutdown the computer is not a common-people-friendly way. ed, sam or acme to edit a simple text file wouldn't be friendly if the user were my mom: maybe notepad would be a better choice for her. Browse by the directory tree with the cd command isn't friendly for them too: perhaps a traditional file manager with a list of directories in a column in left and selected directory content on the right would be better.

> writing
software/documentation to meet your own needs seems a more productive
start
It's a good advice and I'll take it in consideration. Thank you.


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil
  2020-08-31  1:29           ` Leonardo
@ 2020-08-31  1:32             ` Kurt H Maier
  2020-08-31  2:03               ` Leonardo
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Kurt H Maier @ 2020-08-31  1:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 09:29:01PM -0400, Leonardo wrote:
> > User-friendliness is difficult to establish precisely.
> Yes, it's an abstract and subjective thing, but on average we know what is.

No we don't.  We like to claim we do, but really we're just pretending
prior training is intuition.  It's fine if you want software that works
the way you're used to, but let's not pretend it's natural law, please.

khm

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil
  2020-08-31  1:32             ` Kurt H Maier
@ 2020-08-31  2:03               ` Leonardo
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Leonardo @ 2020-08-31  2:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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On Sunday, 30 August 2020, at 10:32 PM, Kurt H Maier wrote:
> No we don't.  We like to claim we do, but really we're just pretending
prior training is intuition.  It's fine if you want software that works
the way you're used to, but let's not pretend it's natural law, please.


Friendly on average is the way most of people learn and how they get used and it has nothing to do with my intuition: it has to do with what is offered to them: it's a marketshare question, a statistical question.



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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil
  2020-08-29 21:03       ` Lucas Francesco
  2020-08-29 22:09         ` Iruatã Souza
@ 2020-08-31  2:52         ` Leonardo
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Leonardo @ 2020-08-31  2:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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On Saturday, 29 August 2020, at 6:01 PM, Lucas Francesco wrote:
> Leo, best of luck on the distro though, I'd really like 9 to be niche-popular but I don't think translating stuff is the way to go, if it wasn't for covid I was going to start  lecturing about it at the uni I'm in but with prior warnings that all the content is in English. 
> 
Thank you, Lucas. Indeed, translation isn't a keypoint although it's a point. You're obviously right: english is the language. And it's a joy that you're talking about Plan 9 on university. Congrats 

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil
  2020-08-29 21:30     ` ori
@ 2020-09-01 11:52       ` Ethan Gardener
  2020-09-01 12:10         ` hiro
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: Ethan Gardener @ 2020-09-01 11:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, at 10:30 PM, ori@eigenstate.org wrote:
> > I really don't understand why Plan 9 has not been adopted. Legacy base?
> 
> Porting software is expensive and time consuming. Unix
> mostly works. On top of that, Unix has many features.
> Bolted on in ways that don't fit, but features that
> aren't provided by Plan 9 tools, nonetheless.
> 
> When given a familiar but ugly environment with more
> features, which requires less work to get their familiar
> software running, what do you expect the result to be?

I agree, and add to all that the fact that Linux was popular and well-regarded many years before Plan 9 became open-source. Plan 9 was not only expensive, but IIRC hardly available before it was open-sourced in 2000. 

Also, denial of a serious bug in Fossil must have contributed to crushing what little chance Plan 9 had in this century. It took over 10 years to fix a serious data corruption bug which affected most, perhaps almost all new users. What commercial developer or balanced hobbyist would put up with that? For some perspective, see mycroftiv's mail: [9fans] notes on fossil, ANTS, and 9front/Bell labs controversies. He put a lot of effort into working around failure of the root filesystem. I'm sorry for the part I've played in contributing to the Plan 9 attitude problem, and I'm glad to see it has faded away.

With the attitude problem gone and some corporations developing new, non-unix operating systems, I think Plan 9 could well become more popular than it's ever been.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil
  2020-09-01 11:52       ` Ethan Gardener
@ 2020-09-01 12:10         ` hiro
  2020-09-01 12:19           ` Ethan Gardener
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread
From: hiro @ 2020-09-01 12:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> developing new, non-unix operating systems

which?

On 9/1/20, Ethan Gardener <eekee57@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, at 10:30 PM, ori@eigenstate.org wrote:
>> > I really don't understand why Plan 9 has not been adopted. Legacy base?
>>
>> Porting software is expensive and time consuming. Unix
>> mostly works. On top of that, Unix has many features.
>> Bolted on in ways that don't fit, but features that
>> aren't provided by Plan 9 tools, nonetheless.
>>
>> When given a familiar but ugly environment with more
>> features, which requires less work to get their familiar
>> software running, what do you expect the result to be?
>
> I agree, and add to all that the fact that Linux was popular and
> well-regarded many years before Plan 9 became open-source. Plan 9 was not
> only expensive, but IIRC hardly available before it was open-sourced in
> 2000.
>
> Also, denial of a serious bug in Fossil must have contributed to crushing
> what little chance Plan 9 had in this century. It took over 10 years to fix
> a serious data corruption bug which affected most, perhaps almost all new
> users. What commercial developer or balanced hobbyist would put up with
> that? For some perspective, see mycroftiv's mail: [9fans] notes on fossil,
> ANTS, and 9front/Bell labs controversies. He put a lot of effort into
> working around failure of the root filesystem. I'm sorry for the part I've
> played in contributing to the Plan 9 attitude problem, and I'm glad to see
> it has faded away.
>
> With the attitude problem gone and some corporations developing new,
> non-unix operating systems, I think Plan 9 could well become more popular
> than it's ever been.
>
> ------------------------------------------
> 9fans: 9fans
> Permalink:
> https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T46e6d1465ae13031-M84bf4987dcdd85beea8fdbc6
> Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil
  2020-09-01 12:10         ` hiro
@ 2020-09-01 12:19           ` Ethan Gardener
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: Ethan Gardener @ 2020-09-01 12:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

On Tue, Sep 1, 2020, at 1:10 PM, hiro wrote:
> > developing new, non-unix operating systems
> 
> which?

Google's Fuschia, Huawei's Harmony.

Besides, hobbyist interest in operating systems seems as alive as ever.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2020-09-01 12:19 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 22+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2020-05-02  8:52 Plan 9 in Brazil Iruatã Souza
2020-05-02 16:31 ` [9fans] " Robert Sherwood
2020-08-29 17:25   ` Leonardo
2020-08-29 17:43     ` Wes Kussmaul
2020-08-29 18:36       ` Leonardo
2020-08-29 19:51         ` Wes Kussmaul
2020-08-29 21:10       ` Kurt H Maier
2020-08-29 19:54     ` Iruatã Souza
2020-08-29 21:03       ` Lucas Francesco
2020-08-29 22:09         ` Iruatã Souza
2020-08-31  2:52         ` Leonardo
2020-08-29 21:19       ` Lucas Francesco
2020-08-29 22:04         ` Iruatã Souza
2020-08-30 16:53       ` Leonardo
2020-08-30 19:40         ` Iruatã Souza
2020-08-31  1:29           ` Leonardo
2020-08-31  1:32             ` Kurt H Maier
2020-08-31  2:03               ` Leonardo
2020-08-29 21:30     ` ori
2020-09-01 11:52       ` Ethan Gardener
2020-09-01 12:10         ` hiro
2020-09-01 12:19           ` Ethan Gardener

9fans - fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs

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