[TUHS] History of non-Bell C compilers?

[TUHS] History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Tom Lyon]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 236 bytes --]

For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.
Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 275 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Warner Losh]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 513 bytes --]

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 4:14 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com> wrote:

> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.
> Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
>

MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86 port.
They supported the popular micros of the time. Various versions of them
survive to the present day.

Warner

>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1059 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Dave Horsfall]

On Thu, 7 Mar 2024, Warner Losh wrote:

> MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86 port. 
> They supported the popular micros of the time. Various versions of them 
> survive to the present day.

That reminds me: there was the Hi-Tech C Compiler for the Z-80 (CP/M); it 
was full ANSI (unlike BDS C which barely supported C).

-- Dave

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Larry McVoy]

On Fri, Mar 08, 2024 at 10:39:20AM +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Mar 2024, Warner Losh wrote:
> 
> > MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86 port. 
> > They supported the popular micros of the time. Various versions of them 
> > survive to the present day.
> 
> That reminds me: there was the Hi-Tech C Compiler for the Z-80 (CP/M); it 
> was full ANSI (unlike BDS C which barely supported C).

Some people like to hate on BDS C, I'm not one of them.  It was a very
fast compiler compared to other C compilers (Turbo Pascal was a lot 
faster, I remain impressed with that speed to this day).

My memory is BDS C did C just fine, but had a very non standard standard
I/O library.  I had relearn stdio when I got to Unix.  But I never had a
problem with it not compiling C.

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Luther Johnson]

Speaking of the CP/M and later DOS world, Aztec C was a very competent C
compiler. I recently put together a CP/M environment, and used the
latest version I could find of Aztec C, and it did just what I wanted it
to do.

On 03/07/2024 04:49 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 08, 2024 at 10:39:20AM +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>> On Thu, 7 Mar 2024, Warner Losh wrote:
>>
>>> MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86 port.
>>> They supported the popular micros of the time. Various versions of them
>>> survive to the present day.
>> That reminds me: there was the Hi-Tech C Compiler for the Z-80 (CP/M); it
>> was full ANSI (unlike BDS C which barely supported C).
> Some people like to hate on BDS C, I'm not one of them.  It was a very
> fast compiler compared to other C compilers (Turbo Pascal was a lot
> faster, I remain impressed with that speed to this day).
>
> My memory is BDS C did C just fine, but had a very non standard standard
> I/O library.  I had relearn stdio when I got to Unix.  But I never had a
> problem with it not compiling C.
>

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[John Foust via TUHS]

At 05:56 PM 3/7/2024, Luther Johnson wrote:
>Speaking of the CP/M and later DOS world, Aztec C was a very competent C
>compiler. I recently put together a CP/M environment, and used the
>latest version I could find of Aztec C, and it did just what I wanted it
>to do.

There is an extensive web with the history of Aztec C. 

https://www.aztecmuseum.ca/

I don't see any Unix products there, but I have a vague memory of
one of the compiler developers telling me about how they bootstrapped
on a PDP.

- John

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Greg 'groggy' Lehey]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1189 bytes --]

On Thursday,  7 March 2024 at 15:49:21 -0800, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 08, 2024 at 10:39:20AM +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>> On Thu, 7 Mar 2024, Warner Losh wrote:
>>
>>> MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86 port.
>>> They supported the popular micros of the time. Various versions of them
>>> survive to the present day.
>>
>> That reminds me: there was the Hi-Tech C Compiler for the Z-80 (CP/M); it
>> was full ANSI (unlike BDS C which barely supported C).
>
> Some people like to hate on BDS C, I'm not one of them.  It was a very
> fast compiler compared to other C compilers

+1.  I started with BDS C in about 1980, when it came bundled with
MINCE.  It took me a long time before I used a real, standard C
compiler.

> My memory is BDS C did C just fine, but had a very non standard
> standard I/O library.  I had relearn stdio when I got to Unix.

Yes, this matches my experience.

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Rich Salz]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 918 bytes --]

I believe Snyder was an MIT Master's thesis, finished in 1975[1].  There
was a fair amount of C and compiler work at MIT LCS, perhaps JNC can post
some info. I think Snyder's compiler was used for the MIT PC/IP[2] project;
the links at BitSavers imply they are related. PC/IP brought TCP and
clients to DOS 3 machines and was commercialized as FTP software and was
one of the reasons for the creation of the MIT license[4]. BDS C[3] was
done by an MIT drop-out, Leor Zolman. I bought my first motorcycle from him
:) BDS C was used for the first implementations of MINCE (mince is not
complete emacs -- those kinds of acronyms were popular) and Scribble,
downsized clones of emacs and Scribe, respectively.

[1] http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/specpub.php?id=717
[2] https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/pcip-1986.pdf
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C
[4] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9263265

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1718 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Warner Losh]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1156 bytes --]

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:08 PM Rich Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com> wrote:

> I believe Snyder was an MIT Master's thesis, finished in 1975[1].  There
> was a fair amount of C and compiler work at MIT LCS, perhaps JNC can post
> some info. I think Snyder's compiler was used for the MIT PC/IP[2] project;
> the links at BitSavers imply they are related. PC/IP brought TCP and
> clients to DOS 3 machines and was commercialized as FTP software and was
> one of the reasons for the creation of the MIT license[4]. BDS C[3] was
> done by an MIT drop-out, Leor Zolman. I bought my first motorcycle from him
> :) BDS C was used for the first implementations of MINCE (mince is not
> complete emacs -- those kinds of acronyms were popular) and Scribble,
> downsized clones of emacs and Scribe, respectively.
>
> [1] http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/specpub.php?id=717
> [2] https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/pcip-1986.pdf
> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C
> [4] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9263265
>

Judging from what's at the bitsavers I posted, the source for pcip and this
is the backstory to them.

Warner

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2159 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Rob Pike]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1471 bytes --]

Chris Fraser and Dave Hanson did LLC and wrote a book about it, very clean
and pedagogically valuable.

https://www.amazon.com.au/Retargetable-C-Compiler-Design-Implementation/dp/0805316701

-rob


On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 11:31 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:08 PM Rich Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I believe Snyder was an MIT Master's thesis, finished in 1975[1].  There
>> was a fair amount of C and compiler work at MIT LCS, perhaps JNC can post
>> some info. I think Snyder's compiler was used for the MIT PC/IP[2] project;
>> the links at BitSavers imply they are related. PC/IP brought TCP and
>> clients to DOS 3 machines and was commercialized as FTP software and was
>> one of the reasons for the creation of the MIT license[4]. BDS C[3] was
>> done by an MIT drop-out, Leor Zolman. I bought my first motorcycle from him
>> :) BDS C was used for the first implementations of MINCE (mince is not
>> complete emacs -- those kinds of acronyms were popular) and Scribble,
>> downsized clones of emacs and Scribe, respectively.
>>
>> [1] http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/specpub.php?id=717
>> [2] https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/pcip-1986.pdf
>> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C
>> [4] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9263265
>>
>
> Judging from what's at the bitsavers I posted, the source for pcip and
> this is the backstory to them.
>
> Warner
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3293 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Bakul Shah via TUHS]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1665 bytes --]

What is the history of Plan9's C compiler? Was it a from scratch implementation?

> On Mar 7, 2024, at 4:57 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Chris Fraser and Dave Hanson did LLC and wrote a book about it, very clean and pedagogically valuable.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com.au/Retargetable-C-Compiler-Design-Implementation/dp/0805316701
> 
> -rob
> 
> 
> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 11:31 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com <mailto:imp@bsdimp.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:08 PM Rich Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com <mailto:rich.salz@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> I believe Snyder was an MIT Master's thesis, finished in 1975[1].  There was a fair amount of C and compiler work at MIT LCS, perhaps JNC can post some info. I think Snyder's compiler was used for the MIT PC/IP[2] project; the links at BitSavers imply they are related. PC/IP brought TCP and clients to DOS 3 machines and was commercialized as FTP software and was one of the reasons for the creation of the MIT license[4]. BDS C[3] was done by an MIT drop-out, Leor Zolman. I bought my first motorcycle from him :) BDS C was used for the first implementations of MINCE (mince is not complete emacs -- those kinds of acronyms were popular) and Scribble, downsized clones of emacs and Scribe, respectively.
>>> 
>>> [1] http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/specpub.php?id=717
>>> [2] https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/pcip-1986.pdf
>>> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C
>>> [4] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9263265
>> 
>> Judging from what's at the bitsavers I posted, the source for pcip and this is the backstory to them.
>> 
>> Warner


[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3776 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Rob Pike]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1912 bytes --]

Yes. Ken wrote the first version for the National 32000 (maybe even 16000?)
on the Sequent. He ported to the MIPS when we started Plan 9.

-rob


On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 12:08 PM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:

> What is the history of Plan9's C compiler? Was it a from scratch
> implementation?
>
> On Mar 7, 2024, at 4:57 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Chris Fraser and Dave Hanson did LLC and wrote a book about it, very clean
> and pedagogically valuable.
>
>
> https://www.amazon.com.au/Retargetable-C-Compiler-Design-Implementation/dp/0805316701
>
> -rob
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 11:31 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:08 PM Rich Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I believe Snyder was an MIT Master's thesis, finished in 1975[1].  There
>>> was a fair amount of C and compiler work at MIT LCS, perhaps JNC can post
>>> some info. I think Snyder's compiler was used for the MIT PC/IP[2] project;
>>> the links at BitSavers imply they are related. PC/IP brought TCP and
>>> clients to DOS 3 machines and was commercialized as FTP software and was
>>> one of the reasons for the creation of the MIT license[4]. BDS C[3] was
>>> done by an MIT drop-out, Leor Zolman. I bought my first motorcycle from him
>>> :) BDS C was used for the first implementations of MINCE (mince is not
>>> complete emacs -- those kinds of acronyms were popular) and Scribble,
>>> downsized clones of emacs and Scribe, respectively.
>>>
>>> [1] http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/specpub.php?id=717
>>> [2] https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/pcip-1986.pdf
>>> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C
>>> [4] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9263265
>>>
>>
>> Judging from what's at the bitsavers I posted, the source for pcip and
>> this is the backstory to them.
>>
>> Warner
>>
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4479 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Rob Pike]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2431 bytes --]

By the way, the unmatched portability of Plan 9 and Go stems from the way
Ken structured that compiler. My talk at GopherCon about the Go assembler
describes this architecture and why it worked so well. Others feel that by
being unorthodox it is clearly bogus and we are jackasses, but such
complainers only notice the difference and don't ask why the difference is
there.

-rob


On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 12:10 PM Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes. Ken wrote the first version for the National 32000 (maybe even
> 16000?) on the Sequent. He ported to the MIPS when we started Plan 9.
>
> -rob
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 12:08 PM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
>
>> What is the history of Plan9's C compiler? Was it a from scratch
>> implementation?
>>
>> On Mar 7, 2024, at 4:57 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Chris Fraser and Dave Hanson did LLC and wrote a book about it, very
>> clean and pedagogically valuable.
>>
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com.au/Retargetable-C-Compiler-Design-Implementation/dp/0805316701
>>
>> -rob
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 11:31 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:08 PM Rich Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I believe Snyder was an MIT Master's thesis, finished in 1975[1].
>>>> There was a fair amount of C and compiler work at MIT LCS, perhaps JNC can
>>>> post some info. I think Snyder's compiler was used for the MIT PC/IP[2]
>>>> project; the links at BitSavers imply they are related. PC/IP brought TCP
>>>> and clients to DOS 3 machines and was commercialized as FTP software and
>>>> was one of the reasons for the creation of the MIT license[4]. BDS C[3] was
>>>> done by an MIT drop-out, Leor Zolman. I bought my first motorcycle from him
>>>> :) BDS C was used for the first implementations of MINCE (mince is not
>>>> complete emacs -- those kinds of acronyms were popular) and Scribble,
>>>> downsized clones of emacs and Scribe, respectively.
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/specpub.php?id=717
>>>> [2] https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/pcip-1986.pdf
>>>> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C
>>>> [4] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9263265
>>>>
>>>
>>> Judging from what's at the bitsavers I posted, the source for pcip and
>>> this is the backstory to them.
>>>
>>> Warner
>>>
>>
>>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5555 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Bakul Shah via TUHS]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3100 bytes --]

Thanks!

Yes, I love the way go and plan9 C compilers work. IMHO all new compilers should be written like that. I detest clang & llvm, especially when, for example, Freebsd make buildworld (from scratch) takes over an hour because of clang+llvm times. Surely llvm author(s) could've achieved all the flexibility llvm provide for various frontends in a different way? [FreeBSD is also at fault. I think it can be compiled with gcc but no other small and fast compilers like tcc]

> On Mar 7, 2024, at 5:12 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> By the way, the unmatched portability of Plan 9 and Go stems from the way Ken structured that compiler. My talk at GopherCon about the Go assembler describes this architecture and why it worked so well. Others feel that by being unorthodox it is clearly bogus and we are jackasses, but such complainers only notice the difference and don't ask why the difference is there.
> 
> -rob
> 
> 
> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 12:10 PM Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com <mailto:robpike@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Yes. Ken wrote the first version for the National 32000 (maybe even 16000?) on the Sequent. He ported to the MIPS when we started Plan 9.
>> 
>> -rob
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 12:08 PM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org <mailto:bakul@iitbombay.org>> wrote:
>>> What is the history of Plan9's C compiler? Was it a from scratch implementation?
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 7, 2024, at 4:57 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com <mailto:robpike@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Chris Fraser and Dave Hanson did LLC and wrote a book about it, very clean and pedagogically valuable.
>>>> 
>>>> https://www.amazon.com.au/Retargetable-C-Compiler-Design-Implementation/dp/0805316701
>>>> 
>>>> -rob
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 11:31 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com <mailto:imp@bsdimp.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:08 PM Rich Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com <mailto:rich.salz@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> I believe Snyder was an MIT Master's thesis, finished in 1975[1].  There was a fair amount of C and compiler work at MIT LCS, perhaps JNC can post some info. I think Snyder's compiler was used for the MIT PC/IP[2] project; the links at BitSavers imply they are related. PC/IP brought TCP and clients to DOS 3 machines and was commercialized as FTP software and was one of the reasons for the creation of the MIT license[4]. BDS C[3] was done by an MIT drop-out, Leor Zolman. I bought my first motorcycle from him :) BDS C was used for the first implementations of MINCE (mince is not complete emacs -- those kinds of acronyms were popular) and Scribble, downsized clones of emacs and Scribe, respectively.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> [1] http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/specpub.php?id=717
>>>>>> [2] https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/pcip-1986.pdf
>>>>>> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C
>>>>>> [4] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9263265
>>>>> 
>>>>> Judging from what's at the bitsavers I posted, the source for pcip and this is the backstory to them.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Warner
>>> 


[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6486 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[arnold]

Interestingly, they used Literate Programming to do so.
The source is available, but IIRC there isn't a back end
for x86_64.

Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:

> Chris Fraser and Dave Hanson did LLC and wrote a book about it, very clean
> and pedagogically valuable.
>
> https://www.amazon.com.au/Retargetable-C-Compiler-Design-Implementation/dp/0805316701
>
> -rob
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 11:31 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:08 PM Rich Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I believe Snyder was an MIT Master's thesis, finished in 1975[1].  There
> >> was a fair amount of C and compiler work at MIT LCS, perhaps JNC can post
> >> some info. I think Snyder's compiler was used for the MIT PC/IP[2] project;
> >> the links at BitSavers imply they are related. PC/IP brought TCP and
> >> clients to DOS 3 machines and was commercialized as FTP software and was
> >> one of the reasons for the creation of the MIT license[4]. BDS C[3] was
> >> done by an MIT drop-out, Leor Zolman. I bought my first motorcycle from him
> >> :) BDS C was used for the first implementations of MINCE (mince is not
> >> complete emacs -- those kinds of acronyms were popular) and Scribble,
> >> downsized clones of emacs and Scribe, respectively.
> >>
> >> [1] http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/specpub.php?id=717
> >> [2] https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/pcip-1986.pdf
> >> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C
> >> [4] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9263265
> >>
> >
> > Judging from what's at the bitsavers I posted, the source for pcip and
> > this is the backstory to them.
> >
> > Warner
> >

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Wesley Parish]

The first book on compilers I got that included the source code.

It's been incorporated into lcc-win32, a neat little Win32 compiler 
suite that I have at times played with, mostly during the times I was 
actively maintaining a Windows-based community cybercaf. It's been 
upgraded to lcc-win64, so there is a back end for x86_64. Just not a 
*nix one.

Wesley Parish

On 8/03/24 22:33, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> Interestingly, they used Literate Programming to do so.
> The source is available, but IIRC there isn't a back end
> for x86_64.
>
> Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Chris Fraser and Dave Hanson did LLC and wrote a book about it, very clean
>> and pedagogically valuable.
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com.au/Retargetable-C-Compiler-Design-Implementation/dp/0805316701
>>
>> -rob
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 11:31 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:08 PM Rich Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I believe Snyder was an MIT Master's thesis, finished in 1975[1].  There
>>>> was a fair amount of C and compiler work at MIT LCS, perhaps JNC can post
>>>> some info. I think Snyder's compiler was used for the MIT PC/IP[2] project;
>>>> the links at BitSavers imply they are related. PC/IP brought TCP and
>>>> clients to DOS 3 machines and was commercialized as FTP software and was
>>>> one of the reasons for the creation of the MIT license[4]. BDS C[3] was
>>>> done by an MIT drop-out, Leor Zolman. I bought my first motorcycle from him
>>>> :) BDS C was used for the first implementations of MINCE (mince is not
>>>> complete emacs -- those kinds of acronyms were popular) and Scribble,
>>>> downsized clones of emacs and Scribe, respectively.
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/specpub.php?id=717
>>>> [2] https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/pcip-1986.pdf
>>>> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C
>>>> [4] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9263265
>>>>
>>> Judging from what's at the bitsavers I posted, the source for pcip and
>>> this is the backstory to them.
>>>
>>> Warner
>>>

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Luther Johnson]

LCC is also the basis for "Pelle's C", a very nice and useful toolset.

On 03/08/2024 02:45 AM, Wesley Parish wrote:
> The first book on compilers I got that included the source code.
>
> It's been incorporated into lcc-win32, a neat little Win32 compiler
> suite that I have at times played with, mostly during the times I was
> actively maintaining a Windows-based community cybercaf. It's been
> upgraded to lcc-win64, so there is a back end for x86_64. Just not a
> *nix one.
>
> Wesley Parish
>
> On 8/03/24 22:33, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
>> Interestingly, they used Literate Programming to do so.
>> The source is available, but IIRC there isn't a back end
>> for x86_64.
>>
>> Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Chris Fraser and Dave Hanson did LLC and wrote a book about it, very
>>> clean
>>> and pedagogically valuable.
>>>
>>> https://www.amazon.com.au/Retargetable-C-Compiler-Design-Implementation/dp/0805316701
>>>
>>>
>>> -rob
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 11:31 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:08 PM Rich Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I believe Snyder was an MIT Master's thesis, finished in 1975[1].
>>>>> There
>>>>> was a fair amount of C and compiler work at MIT LCS, perhaps JNC
>>>>> can post
>>>>> some info. I think Snyder's compiler was used for the MIT PC/IP[2]
>>>>> project;
>>>>> the links at BitSavers imply they are related. PC/IP brought TCP and
>>>>> clients to DOS 3 machines and was commercialized as FTP software
>>>>> and was
>>>>> one of the reasons for the creation of the MIT license[4]. BDS
>>>>> C[3] was
>>>>> done by an MIT drop-out, Leor Zolman. I bought my first motorcycle
>>>>> from him
>>>>> :) BDS C was used for the first implementations of MINCE (mince is
>>>>> not
>>>>> complete emacs -- those kinds of acronyms were popular) and Scribble,
>>>>> downsized clones of emacs and Scribe, respectively.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/specpub.php?id=717
>>>>> [2] https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/pcip-1986.pdf
>>>>> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C
>>>>> [4] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9263265
>>>>>
>>>> Judging from what's at the bitsavers I posted, the source for pcip and
>>>> this is the backstory to them.
>>>>
>>>> Warner
>>>>

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[William H. Mitchell]

Speaking of Hanson, I had the great privilege of taking a compilers class from him at the U of Arizona in the early 80s.  We wrote a recursive descent C compiler, a linker, and a debugger. They were all "real", albeit with simplifications.  Hanson wrote the DEC-10 C compiler that we students used.  He wrote enough of an i/o library for our needs, with installments barely ahead of when we needed them. :)

An interesting simplification Hanson used was that 'sizeof <everything>' was 1.  I still marvel at what a great lesson about C that is.  (A YAGNI lesson, too, I suppose.)

When the question of "What’s the best class you ever had?" comes up, my answer is, Dave Hanson’s 453.  Hanson’s slides (and more) are in https://www2.cs.arizona.edu/~whm/csc453-fall1983-DRHanson.pdf.  The slides start on 44.

I also worked for both Hanson and later, Fraser.  To this day I’m impressed that Fraser consistently resisted the temptation for choke me to death for being an idiot who thought he knew everything.

The LCC book Rob cites below is surely a classic and, as written in its Foreword, the book is an example of a "literate program".

--whm

> On Mar 7, 2024, at 5:57 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Chris Fraser and Dave Hanson did LLC and wrote a book about it, very clean and pedagogically valuable.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com.au/Retargetable-C-Compiler-Design-Implementation/dp/0805316701
> 
> -rob

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Adam Thornton]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 283 bytes --]

Oh!  Yeah, I had a class with Dave Hanson my first year of grad school at
Princeton, and it was excellent.  We commiserated a little while after that
when Richard Stevens passed.

*C Interfaces and Implementations* has done a lot to structure how I think
in the decades since.

Adam

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 438 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Phil Budne]

On Thu, 7 Mar 2024 Larry McVoy wrote:
> My memory is BDS C did C just fine, but had a very non standard standard
> I/O library.  I had relearn stdio when I got to Unix.  But I never had a
> problem with it not compiling C.

Early on (originally?) a question asked was "what non-AT&T origin
compilers were used to compile Unix.  Two non-AT&T compilers I
remember wrangling with on U in the 1980's were Green Hills (on the
Encore Multimax), and another compiler on some early flavor of ROMP or
Power based IBM workstation.  Maybe it was xlc?

I remember one of them was unaware that case labels are valid ANYWHERE
inside of a switch statement (the feature Duff applied so cleverly),
something I discovered trying to bring up cfront (the original
C++/C-with-classes compiler, that output C).

On BDS C, I remember chatting with Leor Zolman: he was looking to
contract someone to port BDS (Brain Damage Systems) C to the PC, but
it was written in assembly language, so it wasn't a particularly
attractive job.  I don't recall him having a _particularly_ high
opinion of the code, but I could be misremembering.

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Warner Losh]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 831 bytes --]

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 4:24 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 4:14 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
>> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.
>> Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
>> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
>>
>
> MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86 port.
> They supported the popular micros of the time. Various versions of them
> survive to the present day.
>

It's at bitsavers:

https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar
and
https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/

are pointers to compilers from the early 80s. Obviously not ANSI-C
compilers :)

Warner

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1727 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Charles H Sauer (he/him)]

On 3/7/2024 5:52 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 4:24 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com 
> <mailto:imp@bsdimp.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>     On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 4:14 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com
>     <mailto:pugs78@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>         For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history
>         of C compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and
>         Snyder at Bell.  Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
>         Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
> 
> 
>     MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86
>     port. They supported the popular micros of the time. Various
>     versions of them survive to the present day.
> 
> 
> It's at bitsavers:
> 
> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar 
> <https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar>
> and
> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/ 
> <https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/>
> 
> are pointers to compilers from the early 80s. Obviously not ANSI-C 
> compilers :)
> 
> Warner

See, also, 
https://www.program-transformation.org/Transform/CCompilerHistory.html & 
http://www.desmet-c.com/.

When I only had PC/IX on an XT at my office and a PCjr at home, I mostly 
worked with C at home with DeSmet. I still have a couple of 5.25" 360K 
diskettes labeled C-Ware, which I think are DeSmet 2.4.

Charlie

-- 
voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer@technologists.com
fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
Facebook/Google/LinkedIn/Twitter: CharlesHSauer

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Marc Rochkind]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2472 bytes --]

Larry & Dave, thanks for jogging my memory. I'm pretty sure it was BDS C on
that z80 Zenith computer. (See my longer post above.)

I should add that around 1984 I got a copy of PC/IX for the IBM XT,
directly from Interactive Systems in Santa Monica, where I knew a few
people. That was true UNIX, System III, I think, and I used it for all of
the examples for my book "Advanced UNIX Programming," which came out in
1985. It, of course, had a real Bell Labs C compiler.

Marc

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:15 PM Charles H Sauer (he/him) <
sauer@technologists.com> wrote:

> On 3/7/2024 5:52 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 4:24 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com
> > <mailto:imp@bsdimp.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >     On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 4:14 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com
> >     <mailto:pugs78@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >         For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history
> >         of C compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and
> >         Snyder at Bell.  Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
> >         Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
> >
> >
> >     MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86
> >     port. They supported the popular micros of the time. Various
> >     versions of them survive to the present day.
> >
> >
> > It's at bitsavers:
> >
> > https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar
> > <https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar>
> > and
> > https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/
> > <https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/>
> >
> > are pointers to compilers from the early 80s. Obviously not ANSI-C
> > compilers :)
> >
> > Warner
>
> See, also,
> https://www.program-transformation.org/Transform/CCompilerHistory.html &
> http://www.desmet-c.com/.
>
> When I only had PC/IX on an XT at my office and a PCjr at home, I mostly
> worked with C at home with DeSmet. I still have a couple of 5.25" 360K
> diskettes labeled C-Ware, which I think are DeSmet 2.4.
>
> Charlie
>
> --
> voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer@technologists.com
> fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
> Facebook/Google/LinkedIn/Twitter
> <https://technologists.com/sauer/Facebook/Google/LinkedIn/Twitter>:
> CharlesHSauer
>


-- 
*My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com <mrochkind@gmail.com>*

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4231 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Heinz Lycklama]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2956 bytes --]

Marc is correct. All of ISC C compilers were based
on Bell Labs C compilers, starting with a C compiler
for the DEC VAX machine in 1978.

Heinz

On 3/7/2024 4:30 PM, Marc Rochkind wrote:
> Larry & Dave, thanks for jogging my memory. I'm pretty sure it was BDS 
> C on that z80 Zenith computer. (See my longer post above.)
>
> I should add that around 1984 I got a copy of PC/IX for the IBM XT, 
> directly from Interactive Systems in Santa Monica, where I knew a few 
> people. That was true UNIX, System III, I think, and I used it for all 
> of the examples for my book "Advanced UNIX Programming," which came 
> out in 1985. It, of course, had a real Bell Labs C compiler.
>
> Marc
>
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:15 PM Charles H Sauer (he/him) 
> <sauer@technologists.com> wrote:
>
>     On 3/7/2024 5:52 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
>     >
>     >
>     > On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 4:24 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com
>     > <mailto:imp@bsdimp.com>> wrote:
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >     On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 4:14 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com
>     >     <mailto:pugs78@gmail.com>> wrote:
>     >
>     >         For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early
>     history
>     >         of C compilers that were not derived from Ritchie,
>     Johnson, and
>     >         Snyder at Bell.  Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
>     >         Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
>     >
>     >
>     >     MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the
>     Venix x86
>     >     port. They supported the popular micros of the time. Various
>     >     versions of them survive to the present day.
>     >
>     >
>     > It's at bitsavers:
>     >
>     > https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar
>     > <https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar>
>     > and
>     > https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/
>     > <https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/>
>     >
>     > are pointers to compilers from the early 80s. Obviously not ANSI-C
>     > compilers :)
>     >
>     > Warner
>
>     See, also,
>     https://www.program-transformation.org/Transform/CCompilerHistory.html
>     &
>     http://www.desmet-c.com/.
>
>     When I only had PC/IX on an XT at my office and a PCjr at home, I
>     mostly
>     worked with C at home with DeSmet. I still have a couple of 5.25"
>     360K
>     diskettes labeled C-Ware, which I think are DeSmet 2.4.
>
>     Charlie
>
>     -- 
>     voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer@technologists.com
>     fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
>     Facebook/Google/LinkedIn/Twitter
>     <https://technologists.com/sauer/Facebook/Google/LinkedIn/Twitter>:
>     CharlesHSauer
>
>
>
> -- 
> /My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com/

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6927 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[segaloco via TUHS]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3463 bytes --]

Tom you mentioned non-Bell compilers, but also x86, so I can't resist pointing out: https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/otherports/newp.pdf

Among the handful of systems experimented with in these Bell Labs UNIX porting experiences is the 8086 which was being used for some sort of internal project at the time. I'm not aware of any artifacts (UNIX nor C) from that port, nor if any 32-bit and beyond x86 compiler technology out there derives from any of these efforts, but worth mentioning in the history of C touching Intel platforms. I do seem to recall some discussion here a while back that implied that the SGS suite may have had its genesis in some of these efforts. The internal Bell Labs version of Release 5.0 has SGS compilers for several BellMAC targets that I think descend from some of this work. I'd have to go looking for proof though so consider that anecdotal for now.

- Matt G.

On Thursday, March 7th, 2024 at 4:54 PM, Heinz Lycklama heinz@osta.com wrote:

> Marc is correct. All of ISC C compilers were based
> on Bell Labs C compilers, starting with a C compiler
> for the DEC VAX machine in 1978.
>
> Heinz
>
> On 3/7/2024 4:30 PM, Marc Rochkind wrote:
>
>> Larry & Dave, thanks for jogging my memory. I'm pretty sure it was BDS C on that z80 Zenith computer. (See my longer post above.)
>> I should add that around 1984 I got a copy of PC/IX for the IBM XT, directly from Interactive Systems in Santa Monica, where I knew a few people. That was true UNIX, System III, I think, and I used it for all of the examples for my book "Advanced UNIX Programming," which came out in 1985. It, of course, had a real Bell Labs C compiler.
>>
>> Marc
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:15 PM Charles H Sauer (he/him) sauer@technologists.com wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/7/2024 5:52 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 4:24 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com
>>>> mailto:imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 4:14 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com
>>>> mailto:pugs78@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history
>>>> of C compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and
>>>> Snyder at Bell. Especially for x86. Anyone have tales?
>>>> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
>>>>
>>>> MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86
>>>> port. They supported the popular micros of the time. Various
>>>> versions of them survive to the present day.
>>>>
>>>> It's at bitsavers:
>>>>
>>>> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar
>>>> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar
>>>> and
>>>> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/
>>>> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/
>>>>
>>>> are pointers to compilers from the early 80s. Obviously not ANSI-C
>>>> compilers :)
>>>>
>>>> Warner
>>>
>>> See, also,
>>> https://www.program-transformation.org/Transform/CCompilerHistory.html &
>>> http://www.desmet-c.com/.
>>>
>>> When I only had PC/IX on an XT at my office and a PCjr at home, I mostly
>>> worked with C at home with DeSmet. I still have a couple of 5.25" 360K
>>> diskettes labeled C-Ware, which I think are DeSmet 2.4.
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>>
>>> --
>>> voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com
>>> fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/Facebook/Google/LinkedIn/Twitter: CharlesHSauer
>>
>> --
>> My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4638 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Tom Lyon]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3728 bytes --]

Thanks, I had not seen that.
More info about UNIX on UNIVAC than I'd seen before. Who did the C compiler
for that?

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:49 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:

> Tom you mentioned non-Bell compilers, but also x86, so I can't resist
> pointing out: https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/otherports/newp.pdf
>
> Among the handful of systems experimented with in these Bell Labs UNIX
> porting experiences is the 8086 which was being used for some sort of
> internal project at the time.  I'm not aware of any artifacts (UNIX nor C)
> from that port, nor if any 32-bit and beyond x86 compiler technology out
> there derives from any of these efforts, but worth mentioning in the
> history of C touching Intel platforms.  I do seem to recall some discussion
> here a while back that implied that the SGS suite may have had its genesis
> in some of these efforts.  The internal Bell Labs version of Release 5.0
> has SGS compilers for several BellMAC targets that I think descend from
> some of this work.  I'd have to go looking for proof though so consider
> that anecdotal for now.
>
> - Matt G.
>
>
> On Thursday, March 7th, 2024 at 4:54 PM, Heinz Lycklama heinz@osta.com
> wrote:
>
> Marc is correct. All of ISC C compilers were based
> on Bell Labs C compilers, starting with a C compiler
> for the DEC VAX machine in 1978.
>
> Heinz
>
> On 3/7/2024 4:30 PM, Marc Rochkind wrote:
>
> Larry & Dave, thanks for jogging my memory. I'm pretty sure it was BDS C
> on that z80 Zenith computer. (See my longer post above.)
> I should add that around 1984 I got a copy of PC/IX for the IBM XT,
> directly from Interactive Systems in Santa Monica, where I knew a few
> people. That was true UNIX, System III, I think, and I used it for all of
> the examples for my book "Advanced UNIX Programming," which came out in
> 1985. It, of course, had a real Bell Labs C compiler.
>
> Marc
>
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:15 PM Charles H Sauer (he/him)
> sauer@technologists.com wrote:
>
> On 3/7/2024 5:52 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
>
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 4:24 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com
> mailto:imp@bsdimp.com <imp@bsdimp.com>> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 4:14 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com
> mailto:pugs78@gmail.com <pugs78@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history
> of C compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and
> Snyder at Bell. Especially for x86. Anyone have tales?
> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
>
> MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86
> port. They supported the popular micros of the time. Various
> versions of them survive to the present day.
>
> It's at bitsavers:
>
> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar
> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar
> and
> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/
> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/
>
> are pointers to compilers from the early 80s. Obviously not ANSI-C
> compilers :)
>
> Warner
>
> See, also,
> https://www.program-transformation.org/Transform/CCompilerHistory.html &
> http://www.desmet-c.com/.
>
> When I only had PC/IX on an XT at my office and a PCjr at home, I mostly
> worked with C at home with DeSmet. I still have a couple of 5.25" 360K
> diskettes labeled C-Ware, which I think are DeSmet 2.4.
>
> Charlie
>
> --
> voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com
> fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web:
> https://technologists.com/sauer/Facebook/Google/LinkedIn/Twitter:
> CharlesHSauer
>
> --
> My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5390 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Lawrence Stewart]

Here’s a strange one.

In 1981 or early 1982, Bill Duval at Xerox Systems Development Division had a C compiler which ran on the Alto and generated code for x86.
Dan Swinehart and I used it to write the software for the PARC Etherphone, which ran on dual 8088 systems.

No idea really whether it was a hobby project or what.  I did hear a rumor that SDD was thinking of building x86 based systems, but I don’t know if they ever happened.

(aside: Duval was one of those guys who used the 3 mouse buttons and the 5 key keyset as a chorded keyboard and never moved his hands.)

-Larry

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Jonathan Gray]

On Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 04:52:26PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 4:24 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 4:14 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
> >> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.
> >> Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
> >> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
> >>
> >
> > MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86 port.
> > They supported the popular micros of the time. Various versions of them
> > survive to the present day.
> >
> 
> It's at bitsavers:
> 
> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar
> and
> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/

and tuhs Applications/Portable_CC/

> 
> are pointers to compilers from the early 80s. Obviously not ANSI-C
> compilers :)
> 
> Warner

The compilers used for MIT Nu/TRIX were derived from PCC.

SUMacC, the Stanford UNIX Macintosh C development environment
reused that work, and one release announcement has:

"ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

The 68000 C compiler used by SUMacC is the Bell Labs (Johnson) portable
C compiler, ported by Chris Terman of MIT and used in the MIT NU
project and the Stanford SUN system. The assembler is by Mike Patrick,
also of MIT. This same compiler / assembler / loader is used in many
of the 68K UNIX boxes currently on the market. Many modifications and
bug fixes have been applied by folks at Stanford, MIT, and Lucasfilm:
Jeff Mogul, Bill Nowicki, John Seamons, Vaughan Pratt, Eric Ostrom, and
a cast of thousands.

Dave Johnson of Brown Univ. contributed the excellent macget/macput
programs that make downloading painless. Among the many people
contributing improvements, new example programs, and bug fixes are:
Mike Schuster of CALTECH, Dan Winkler and Steve Engle of Harvard, Bill
Schilit at Columbia, Joe Pallas and Steve Gross at Stanford, John
Seamons at Lucasfilm, John Peterson at Utah, Ben Hyde of Intermetrics,
Bruce Horn of Apple/Adobe, Van Jacobson at LBL, and many others. Thank
you all!"

Bill Croft in fa.info-mac 20 Nov 1984
https://groups.google.com/g/fa.info-mac/c/-TS9aotPoEA/m/h5U9LQ9yre4J

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Luther Johnson]

I don't have any personal tales, but I remember that P.J. Plaugher's
company, "Whitesmiths", C compiler was an early, and influential,
non-AT&T C compiler.

On 03/07/2024 04:14 PM, Tom Lyon wrote:
> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at
> Bell.  Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Luther Johnson]

Oops, misspelled Mr. Plauger's name, pardon me, that's "P.J. Plauger".

On 03/07/2024 04:24 PM, Luther Johnson wrote:
> I don't have any personal tales, but I remember that P.J. Plaugher's
> company, "Whitesmiths", C compiler was an early, and influential,
> non-AT&T C compiler.
>
> On 03/07/2024 04:14 PM, Tom Lyon wrote:
>> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
>> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at
>> Bell.  Especially for x86. Anyone have tales?
>> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
>

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Tom Lyon]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 843 bytes --]

I know of Plauger as a Kernighan co-author, so I did a search on AbeBooks
and found - a lot of science fiction!  Must investigate.

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 3:27 PM Luther Johnson <luther.johnson@makerlisp.com>
wrote:

> Oops, misspelled Mr. Plauger's name, pardon me, that's "P.J. Plauger".
>
> On 03/07/2024 04:24 PM, Luther Johnson wrote:
> > I don't have any personal tales, but I remember that P.J. Plaugher's
> > company, "Whitesmiths", C compiler was an early, and influential,
> > non-AT&T C compiler.
> >
> > On 03/07/2024 04:14 PM, Tom Lyon wrote:
> >> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
> >> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at
> >> Bell.  Especially for x86. Anyone have tales?
> >> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
> >
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1244 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Marc Rochkind]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2748 bytes --]

I got my first  computer in 1981, when I was still at Bell Labs. A Zenith,
as I recall, running CP/M 80. There was a C-like compiler, but it was a
subset. I think that computer had a z80 chip, so it wasn't an x86.

Then I got an IBM PC in 1982, with an 8088 (16-bit word, 8-bit bus), and
I'm pretty sure the first real C compiler was Lattice C. Microsoft picked
it up and called it Microsoft C. Then, maybe a couple of years later, they
came out with their own C compiler, written in-house, I think. (As I
recall, I got my Lattice C compiler, which was very expensive, for free for
writing a review for BYTE Magazine, but I can't find the review in my
office or online, so maybe I'm imagining that. Or maybe I never finished
the review or they didn't print it.)

I had an early Macintosh, too, and used Lightspeed C. I think it was
essentially complete C. It was a whole IDE, incredibly fast, and I used it
for commercial applications for the Mac. I continued to use that until
Apple bought Next and revised their product line to use NextStep. Then I
used what Apple had, but it was Objective-C (blend of Smalltalk and C)
which is what you wrote NextStep apps in. I think we used Objective-C for
Mac work until the early 1990s, when I stopped writing native Mac apps.

Lots of missing details here, I'm sure.

The August 1983 issue of BYTE Magazine was all about C, and has three
articles reviewing C compilers for CP/M 86, the IBM PC, and CP/M 80.
There's also an article called "The C Language and Models for Systems
Programming" by two guys who know about that stuff,  Stephen C. Johnson and
Brian W. Kernighan. Here's a link to the issue:
https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1983-08

Marc

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 4:45 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com> wrote:

> I know of Plauger as a Kernighan co-author, so I did a search on AbeBooks
> and found - a lot of science fiction!  Must investigate.
>
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 3:27 PM Luther Johnson <
> luther.johnson@makerlisp.com> wrote:
>
>> Oops, misspelled Mr. Plauger's name, pardon me, that's "P.J. Plauger".
>>
>> On 03/07/2024 04:24 PM, Luther Johnson wrote:
>> > I don't have any personal tales, but I remember that P.J. Plaugher's
>> > company, "Whitesmiths", C compiler was an early, and influential,
>> > non-AT&T C compiler.
>> >
>> > On 03/07/2024 04:14 PM, Tom Lyon wrote:
>> >> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
>> >> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at
>> >> Bell.  Especially for x86. Anyone have tales?
>> >> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
>> >
>>
>>

-- 
*My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com <mrochkind@gmail.com>*

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3802 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Jeffry R. Abramson]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3228 bytes --]

In grad school in the early 80's I was developing instrumentation built
around a CompuPro S-100 system running CP/M-86.  I used the Computer
Innovations C compiler https://www.clipshop.ca/c86/intro.htm , wonder
if I still have a copy on 8-inch floppies somewhere.

On Thu, 2024-03-07 at 17:24 -0700, Marc Rochkind wrote:
> I got my first  computer in 1981, when I was still at Bell Labs. A
> Zenith, as I recall, running CP/M 80. There was a C-like compiler,
> but it was a subset. I think that computer had a z80 chip, so it
> wasn't an x86.
> 
> Then I got an IBM PC in 1982, with an 8088 (16-bit word, 8-bit bus),
> and I'm pretty sure the first real C compiler was Lattice C.
> Microsoft picked it up and called it Microsoft C. Then, maybe a
> couple of years later, they came out with their own C compiler,
> written in-house, I think. (As I recall, I got my Lattice C compiler,
> which was very expensive, for free for writing a review for BYTE
> Magazine, but I can't find the review in my office or online, so
> maybe I'm imagining that. Or maybe I never finished the review or
> they didn't print it.)
> 
> I had an early Macintosh, too, and used Lightspeed C. I think it was
> essentially complete C. It was a whole IDE, incredibly fast, and I
> used it for commercial applications for the Mac. I continued to use
> that until Apple bought Next and revised their product line to use
> NextStep. Then I used what Apple had, but it was Objective-C (blend
> of Smalltalk and C) which is what you wrote NextStep apps in. I think
> we used Objective-C for Mac work until the early 1990s, when I
> stopped writing native Mac apps.
> 
> Lots of missing details here, I'm sure.
> 
> The August 1983 issue of BYTE Magazine was all about C, and has three
> articles reviewing C compilers for CP/M 86, the IBM PC, and CP/M 80.
> There's also an article called "The C Language and Models for Systems
> Programming" by two guys who know about that stuff,  Stephen C.
> Johnson and Brian W. Kernighan. Here's a link to the
> issue: https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1983-08
> 
> Marc
> 
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 4:45 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I know of Plauger as a Kernighan co-author, so I did a search on
> > AbeBooks and found - a lot of science fiction!  Must investigate.
> > 
> > On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 3:27 PM Luther Johnson
> > <luther.johnson@makerlisp.com> wrote:
> > > Oops, misspelled Mr. Plauger's name, pardon me, that's "P.J.
> > > Plauger".
> > > 
> > > On 03/07/2024 04:24 PM, Luther Johnson wrote:
> > > > I don't have any personal tales, but I remember that P.J.
> > > Plaugher's
> > > > company, "Whitesmiths", C compiler was an early, and
> > > influential,
> > > > non-AT&T C compiler.
> > > >
> > > > On 03/07/2024 04:14 PM, Tom Lyon wrote:
> > > >> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early
> > > history of C
> > > >> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and
> > > Snyder at
> > > >> Bell.  Especially for x86. Anyone have tales?
> > > >> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
> > > >
> > > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com


[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4360 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Greg A. Woods]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1861 bytes --]

At Thu, 7 Mar 2024 17:24:11 -0700, Marc Rochkind <mrochkind@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: [TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?
>
> Then I got an IBM PC in 1982, with an 8088 (16-bit word, 8-bit bus), and
> I'm pretty sure the first real C compiler was Lattice C. Microsoft picked
> it up and called it Microsoft C. Then, maybe a couple of years later, they
> came out with their own C compiler, written in-house, I think. (As I
> recall, I got my Lattice C compiler, which was very expensive, for free for
> writing a review for BYTE Magazine, but I can't find the review in my
> office or online, so maybe I'm imagining that. Or maybe I never finished
> the review or they didn't print it.)

Oh, Lattice C!  The one compiler I came to hate.  It was rather buggy
and had many incompatibilities and difficulties if one was already
accustomed to using writing C on Unix.  Microsoft C in its early days
post-Lattice was somewhat less buggy, but still a bane to use, even on
Xenix where the libraries were more "complete".

I don't think the Mark Williams C compiler has been mentioned in this
thread yet.  It was of course the same one created for and used in their
Coherent system, but it was also released for various systems including
MS-DOS it was a pure joy to use.  It was extremely compatible with Unix
C of the day (having been created to build a Unix clone, and on a PDP-11
no less), and equally reliable, and came with many additional
command-line tools that were similarly familiar.

I wrote more about my experiences with some non-Unix compilers back a
few years ago in a tangentially related thread:

      https://www.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/2020-May/021231.html

--
					Greg A. Woods <gwoods@acm.org>

Kelowna, BC     +1 250 762-7675           RoboHack <woods@robohack.ca>
Planix, Inc. <woods@planix.com>     Avoncote Farms <woods@avoncote.ca>

[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP Digital Signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Will Senn]

I don't think anyone's mentioned it, but there was Watcom... now it's 
Open Watcom:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watcom_C/C%2B%2B

Watcom is from Watfor which ran on the IBM 7040 back in the 60's. The C 
compiler was developed in the 80's and I saw it a lot in the early 90's 
along with Turbo C.

Will


On 3/7/24 5:14 PM, Tom Lyon wrote:
> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C 
> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at 
> Bell.  Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Peter Yardley]

At NSWIT we used the Whitesmiths C cross compiler to produce code for some Intel 8085 development boards so we could get away from having the students write assembler. Can’t remember the exact date but it would have been 80s. We also used Xinu, Minix and Amoeba 

> On 8 Mar 2024, at 1:26 pm, Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I don't think anyone's mentioned it, but there was Watcom... now it's Open Watcom:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watcom_C/C%2B%2B
> 
> Watcom is from Watfor which ran on the IBM 7040 back in the 60's. The C compiler was developed in the 80's and I saw it a lot in the early 90's along with Turbo C.
> 
> Will
> 
> 
> On 3/7/24 5:14 PM, Tom Lyon wrote:
>> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.  Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
>> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
> 

Peter Yardley
peter.martin.yardley@gmail.com

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[George Michaelson]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 143 bytes --]

Ben Golding, an Australian C compiler person once told me gnu/gcc wiped out
his business. I think it certainly thinned out the ranks a bit.

G

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 425 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Luther Johnson]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 331 bytes --]

I believe the first Minix C compilers were based on the Amsterdam
Compiler Kit, so that's another early source.

On 03/07/2024 08:28 PM, George Michaelson wrote:
> Ben Golding, an Australian C compiler person once told me gnu/gcc
> wiped out his business. I think it certainly thinned out the ranks a bit.
>
> G
>
>
>


[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1139 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Lars Brinkhoff]

Tom Lyon writes:
> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell. 

I'm not sure to what extent the Snyder compiler was done at Bell.
It's using a Yacc with a strange syntax, and when asked, Steve Johnson
said he didn't recognize it.

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Henry Bent]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 598 bytes --]

On Thu, 7 Mar 2024 at 18:14, Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com> wrote:

> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.
> Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
>

As a slightly separate addendum, I'm curious about the slightly later
history of compilers for commercial UNIX distributions.  Were these derived
from the Bell/BSD sources or were they "clean room" approaches?  I'm
thinking of SunPRO, IBM XL C, the MIPS compiler, DEC GEM, etc.

-Henry

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 948 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[arnold]

Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 7 Mar 2024 at 18:14, Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
> > compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.
> > Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
> > Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
> >
>
> As a slightly separate addendum, I'm curious about the slightly later
> history of compilers for commercial UNIX distributions.  Were these derived
> from the Bell/BSD sources or were they "clean room" approaches?  I'm
> thinking of SunPRO, IBM XL C, the MIPS compiler, DEC GEM, etc.
>
> -Henry

I think the first MIPS compiler was PCC based and then later it
was rewritten. I'm pretty sure the others were developed from
scratch, but undoubtedly others here know for sure.

Arnold

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Warner Losh]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1071 bytes --]

On Fri, Mar 8, 2024, 6:42 AM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 7 Mar 2024 at 18:14, Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
>> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.
>> Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
>> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
>>
>
> As a slightly separate addendum, I'm curious about the slightly later
> history of compilers for commercial UNIX distributions.  Were these derived
> from the Bell/BSD sources or were they "clean room" approaches?  I'm
> thinking of SunPRO, IBM XL C, the MIPS compiler, DEC GEM, etc.
>

Almost positive SunPRO and XLc were rewrites. I base this on their unique
pickiness on software I ported to them. I had to make several changes for
each that Sun's old compiler, the VAX BSD 4.3 compiler and gcc 1.x didn't
flag... The error messages also were radically different... and the
generated code in the case of Sun was somewhat different...

Warner

>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1928 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Paul Winalski]

On 3/7/24, Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com> wrote:
> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.
> Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
>
[topic of interest to COFF, as well, I think]

DEC's Ultrix for VAX and MIPS used off-the-shelf Unix cc.  I don't
recall what they used for Alpha.

The C compiler for VAX/VMS was written by Dave Cutler's team at
DECwest in Seattle.  The C front end generated intermediate language
(IL) for Cutler's VAX Code Generator (VCG), which was designed to be a
common back end for DEC's compilers for VAX/VMS.  His team also
licensed the Freiburghouse PL/I front end (commercial version of a
PL/I compiler originally done for Multics) and modified it to generate
VCG IL.  The VCG was also the back end for DEC's Ada compiler.  VCG
was superseded by the GEM back end, which supported Alpha and Itanium.
A port of GEM to x86 was in progress at the time Compaq sold off the
Alpha technology (including GEM and its C and Fortran front ends) to
Intel.

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Adam Thornton]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 263 bytes --]

Not early history, but Selfie, which contains a cheerily small
implementation of a C subset called C*, is one of my favorite things.

https://github.com/cksystemsteaching/selfie

C* is described in
https://github.com/cksystemsteaching/selfie/blob/main/grammar.md

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 445 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Damian Wildie]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 605 bytes --]

Does anyone know the history of Silicon Valley Software?

Their C compiler was available on Cromemco's Cromix Plus.




MC68000 "C" Compiler  V2.64                   16-Apr-87

(C) Copyright 1983, 1986 Silicon Valley Software, Inc.











---- On Fri, 08 Mar 2024 09:14:12 +1000 Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com> wrote ---



For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.  Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1784 bytes --]