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* Re: [9fans] Re: Solaris thread scheaduling
@ 2000-08-18 15:34 rob pike
       [not found] ` <rob@plan9.bell-labs.com>
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 171+ messages in thread
From: rob pike @ 2000-08-18 15:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

What, we should use uncooperative threads?
Adversarial threads? Anarchic threads?

I guess I don't know the terminology.  If POSIX threads
are a good thing, perhaps I don't want to know what they're
better than.

-rob



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 171+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] new versions of graphics programs?
@ 2000-09-07 21:57 rob pike
  2000-09-07 22:50 ` Jim Choate
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 171+ messages in thread
From: rob pike @ 2000-09-07 21:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

I started on a couple of the tools.  Since the PIC format is
now largely irrelevant - the standard image format captures
much of its capabilities - it seemed worth retiring the fb
software.  Retiring it also helped keep the distribution smaller
and easier to assemble.  But clearly, some of the tools in 
fb/ are worth having.

I worked on a couple of the tools and stumbled into original
bugs that I didn't see how to fix, so that project has stalled.
The shipped gif and jpg tools and the iconv program should
address some of the lower-level needs.  Higher-level
image processing is a project for a dedicated soul; it's a big
job.

-rob




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 171+ messages in thread
* Re: Re[2]: [9fans] home, end ^h^j^k^l
@ 2001-05-19  8:29 Russ Cox
  2001-05-19  8:44 ` Re[4]: " Matt H
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 171+ messages in thread
From: Russ Cox @ 2001-05-19  8:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> in windows if you select some text and press backspace you delete the
> selected text. If you select some text in acme it replaces the current
> text with a backspace so it also deletes the character to the left of
> your selected text. So, as you must do, I select one less then the
> ones I want to delete.

type "esc", but beware that cuts it
rather than deleting it (i.e., it ends
up in the snarf buffer).

russ


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 171+ messages in thread
* Re: Re[4]: [9fans] home, end ^h^j^k^l
@ 2001-05-19  8:48 Russ Cox
  2001-05-19 20:28 ` Boyd Roberts
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 171+ messages in thread
From: Russ Cox @ 2001-05-19  8:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

there's little function key support.
the function keys only got properly
handled in the keyboard driver two years ago.

the use of escape is a historical choice that i
don't fully understand.  (it's been in sam from
research unix, and i wasn't around then.)  maybe
someone else will comment.

> To: Russ Cox <9fans@cse.psu.edu>

hmm...  that works, i suppose, but it's not
exactly direct.

russ


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 171+ messages in thread
* Re: Re[4]: [9fans] home, end ^h^j^k^l
@ 2001-05-19  9:17 forsyth
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 171+ messages in thread
From: forsyth @ 2001-05-19  9:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

>>the use of escape is a historical choice that i
>>don't fully understand.  (it's been in sam from
>>research unix, and i wasn't around then.)  maybe
>>someone else will comment.

smalltalk80 used esc to select the most recently typed text,
and ``destructive backspace'' also deleted the character preceding
the selection (makes sense given an empty selection);
``delete'' cut the current text selection.

smalltalk80 implementations typically didn't implement cursor keys,
or at least the one i tried briefly,
sensibly enough since most of the keyboards hadn't got them  (whooo!)
(like my Happy Hacking kbd now).  the cursor keys were needed
by DOS and many glass teletypes because they moved a blob cursor
round the screen.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 171+ messages in thread
* Re: Re[4]: [9fans] home, end ^h^j^k^l
@ 2001-05-19 15:39 rob pike
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 171+ messages in thread
From: rob pike @ 2001-05-19 15:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

> That's pretty cool. I suppose it would be a waste of space to
> record who deleted a file as well?

The directory will have its muid set to the most recent deleter or
creator of a file within.  There's no other obvious place to record
the information for deleting a file, since the file is gone.

-rob



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 171+ messages in thread
* Re: Re[2]: [9fans] home, end ^h^j^k^l
@ 2001-05-19 17:07 Quinn Dunkan
  2001-05-19 16:00 ` Re[4]: " Matt H
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 171+ messages in thread
From: Quinn Dunkan @ 2001-05-19 17:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans


> CL> What are other peoples most common acme 'gotchas'?
> 
> my other one is one I'm learning to deal with
> 
> in windows if you select some text and press backspace you delete the
> selected text. If you select some text in acme it replaces the current
> text with a backspace so it also deletes the character to the left of
> your selected text. So, as you must do, I select one less then the
> ones I want to delete.

Nowadays, I get surprised by Linux and Windows when backspace doesn't
delete backwards like it's supposed to.  Plan9's behaviour works nicely
for deleting words.  Otherwise, I've learned to use a cut chord, which
only removes that which is selected.  Since you're using the mouse
for selecting anyway, it's easy to just cut out your text.

> functioning cursor keys would still be a speed benefit.

They do function!  Oh, you mean functioning *your* way ;)


My acme gotchas:

Deleting text with backspace replaces the snarf buffer.  I often cut out
something I want, and then do some editing to prepare a place for it, and wind
up deleting a space or something, at which point my paste doesn't give what I
expected.  I don't think the snarf buffer should be quite so ephemeral, but it
probably also has something to do with how I work (i.e., if I want to snarf
something, I snarf, and if I want to delete it, I delete).

New windows rarely appear where I want them.  I gather the heuristic is
optimized for a particular pattern of use, and I recall seeing that
documented somewhere, but can't find it now.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 171+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] could those of you who have students check this out for
@ 2001-06-09 17:22 forsyth
  2001-06-09 18:50 ` [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science andrey mirtchovski
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 171+ messages in thread
From: forsyth @ 2001-06-09 17:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

>>our computer science department has strong roots in algorithmics.

that might be true, but do the students, in the main, write programs
except those they are required to do for assessments and projects?



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 171+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <vikki@proweb.co.uk>]
[parent not found: <matt@proweb.co.uk>]
* [9fans] bitsy question
@ 2001-06-26 16:33 John Packer
  2001-06-26 17:10 ` [9fans] " Dan Cross
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 171+ messages in thread
From: John Packer @ 2001-06-26 16:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

I have Plan9 installed on my ipaq, but I don't have a pcmcia sleeve,
or wavelan on my network.

So I have been trying to link the bitsy to my terminal using ppp over
the 
serial port. (I made a ramdisk with ip/ppp).

PPP tries to authenticate for 30 seconds (through chap, I think) then
times out.


I've tried running ppp a few different ways, but something like
	
	ip/ppp -df -b 115200 -p /dev/eia0 -s $user:$secret 135.104.99.5

on the bitsy and something like
	
	ip/ppp -dfS -b 115200 -p /dev/eia0 135.104.99.1

on the server.

Has anyone tried this? What am I doing wrong?

Thanks, 

John


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 171+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] architectures
@ 2001-07-12  8:42 forsyth
  2001-07-12 13:56 ` Laura Creighton
  2001-07-12 16:13 ` Ozan Yigit
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 171+ messages in thread
From: forsyth @ 2001-07-12  8:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

>>i'm particularly fond of the acme interface, and i really
>>like the chording (okay, maybe it's not for everyone, but _i_
>>really like it). i'm asking about non-techie folks. for them,
>>wouldn't a single-button interface be simpler to understand?

not necessarily, since the functionality of the extra buttons
must be provided somehow, whether by menus, pop-up menus,
key-mouse combinations, keys alone, or some other way.  much might
depend on the choice of conventions for using more than one button.
that in acme all three buttons select text is a big simplification.
i usually introduce it as follows: ``button 1 selects text, button 2
selects text, and button 3 ...'' and during the following pause
nearly everyone says ``selects text?''.  i then explain
that `of course' each button does different things with
the text selected.  that seems fine.  the chording for cut/paste/copy
takes a little practice, but since it has a `feel' much like grabbing
text from the screen, that also seems fine.   outside acme,
the Blit convention (perhaps adopted from Smalltalk, i don't know)
was something like: button 1 generally selected things, button 2 provided local
operations (usually on the thing selected), and button 3 provided global operations
for the application, with a few exceptions such as paint programs.
most menus were kept fairly small.

i know at least one non- technical user of acme who sends and receives
mail, plumbing photos and other things, and editing quite happily.
other non-technical people i've shown it to wanted to use acme on
their machines for document preparation and email because the
organisation into columns and frames and the use of the buttons was
just so much more effective than their `desktop' or a clutter of
windows.  (they also like the soft use of colour.)
contrary to Tog's advice on this point: with care i suspect
you can make abstractions simple and effective enough without insisting on
drawing a tenuous likeness to something in the `real world'.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 171+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9
@ 2001-10-25 17:55 Russ Cox
  2001-10-25 18:29 ` William Josephson
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 171+ messages in thread
From: Russ Cox @ 2001-10-25 17:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

	Could you please recommend me a reading on both architectures to
	understand differences between them. I read here that BSD paging has
	some drawbacks to AT&T one (used in Plan9). And I want to make this
	clear for myself.

The discussions here were talking about many-years-old
systems.  I don't think anyone even mentioned Plan 9's VM system,
which is just about the simplest thing you could imagine.
The BSDs have oodles more ``features.''  I'd look in
www.researchindex.com for the latest stuff, and in McKusick et al.
(Design and Implementation of the 4.4BSD OS) for older stuff.
You can decide for yourself whether Plan 9 needs any of it.

Russ



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 171+ messages in thread
* [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help
@ 2002-01-20 20:02 Roshan James
  2002-01-20 21:01 ` Matt H
                   ` (3 more replies)
  0 siblings, 4 replies; 171+ messages in thread
From: Roshan James @ 2002-01-20 20:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 9fans

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Getting started in Plan9
-------------------------    
Its been a little over a week since i got my Plan9 working and 
I still seem to be in tourist mode.Lots of questions and 
a few suggestions:
(I promise I have tried to answer these for myself before
before I am ask them)

It would be great if we have a school boy style step-by-step 
getting-off-the-ground tour of plan9, maybe somewhere in the
wiki. I would be glad to do this, if i knew enough.

Graphics
-----------
- I am working with an S3 Trio 64v2 card, the install floppy
gave me 800*600 res,but after installation i am on 640*480 and
i cant seem to be able to change it
aux/vga -l 800x600x8
gives me
'Warning (BUG) : redefinition of aperture does not change 
s3screen segment.'
in a black background in the sentre of the screen and an error
message that reads 
'aux/vga: vgactlw: <size 800x600x8 m8>: vga already configured'
in the console window. it is a low end card but I believe that 
I did have a higher res through the boot disk so it should be 
possible here too. how can i change to a higher res ?

- If plan9 is booted through xosl in 640*480 res,plan9 graphics
display ends up corrupt. the bootloader does switch to text mode
before the OS is booted. anyother resolution or a text mode boot
loader does not seem to have a problem. 
The right quarter of the screen (approx) seems to be a duplicate
of the band of the screen display between in the left part. (bad
description i know). Anyway to fix this ?


Acessibility
-------------
- How can I read a couple of html docs in Plan9 ?
- Is there a place where the uses of directories the std file system
heirarchy is discussed, esp /n ? 
- /n/c: exists, how can i access the extended partitions ?
- How can i access the floppy a: ? /n/a: exists but shows no files.
- How can i access the extended windows partitions ? 
- Problem with accessing C: File operations to /n/c: causes a problem
'%mkdir /n/c:/testdir'
'mkdir: cant create /n/c:/testdir: write to hungup channel'
also a black background error message comes (is there a generic name
for these messages ?)
'dossrv 45: suicide: sys: trap fault read addr=0xb pc=0x00004757'
help ?

Shell
------ 
- How can I find/search for a file in Plan9 ? the usual find /|grep xxx 
does not exist here, what is the equivalent ?
- Why doesnt/Can rc have autocomplete and filename completion as in 
bash ? This has become so neccessary.

Keys
-----
- Why cant the left/right arrow keys+home+end keys move the cursor,
it is really difficult to edit something by placing the cursor there
with the mouse. 
- Unless is it part of a grander plan (no pun intended), can we move 
the process interrupt key from Del to something else and have the 
conventional functionality of del back ?

General
-------
- Is the option of plan9 default boot in bootsetup (during install)
safe for other OSes that exist on the system ?
- Why arent there more applications and more developers interested
in developing for plan9 ? 

Russ, I think it would kill you to keep answering all the newbie 
questions. Russ, Imel, Thanks for all the help you have been. I 
think the Plan9 faq needs updation with some of the more generic 
questions here. This is a lesson that could learned from the Win32's, 
if you want the OS to grow, you have to get people comfortable with 
it very fast. I think we can make that happen.

Rosh.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
(Lord of the Rings)

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 171+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2002-06-29  2:23 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 171+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2000-08-18 15:34 [9fans] Re: Solaris thread scheaduling rob pike
     [not found] ` <rob@plan9.bell-labs.com>
2000-08-02 14:48   ` [9fans] pipefile rob pike
2000-08-02 15:49     ` James A. Robinson
2000-08-18 20:25   ` [9fans] Re: Solaris thread scheaduling Tom Duff
2000-09-06 21:59   ` [9fans] Reliable Cray Y-MP C90 Supercomputer rob pike
2000-09-06 22:02     ` James A. Robinson
2000-09-06 22:14       ` Boyd Roberts
2000-09-06 22:11     ` Boyd Roberts
2000-09-07 22:18   ` [9fans] new versions of graphics programs? Tom Duff
2000-11-01 22:23   ` [9fans] /n/smtp rob pike
2000-11-01 22:38     ` Scott Schwartz
2000-11-24  0:41   ` [9fans] Crazy idea... or a new project? rob pike
2000-11-24  0:48     ` Boyd Roberts
2000-11-24 22:13     ` Scott Schwartz
2000-11-24 22:24       ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-06 17:11   ` [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support rob pike
2001-02-06 19:10     ` Scott Schwartz
2001-02-06 19:23     ` Dan Cross
2001-02-07 15:23   ` [9fans] 9p2k, fsync rob pike
2001-02-07 18:42     ` Scott Schwartz
2001-02-08  1:19     ` Dan Cross
2001-02-08  9:43       ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-02-14 13:51   ` [9fans] isatty rob pike
2001-02-14 16:42     ` Scott Schwartz
2001-03-26 14:12   ` [9fans] sam mod for delete-forward rob pike
2001-03-26 15:37     ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-03-27  8:25       ` Boyd Roberts
2001-03-27 14:01         ` Sam
2001-03-27 16:51           ` Dan Cross
2001-03-28  8:37             ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-03-29  8:26               ` Boyd Roberts
2001-03-26 15:42     ` Scott Schwartz
2001-05-10 14:59   ` [9fans] snprint(), getfields() specification rob pike
2001-05-10 16:42     ` Scott Schwartz
2001-05-10 18:13     ` Steve Kilbane
2001-05-10 21:38       ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-11  6:51         ` Steve Kilbane
2001-05-19 14:14   ` Re[4]: [9fans] home, end ^h^j^k^l rob pike
2001-05-19 14:26     ` Re[6]: " Matt H
2001-05-19 22:45       ` [9fans] ls -m Scott Schwartz
2001-05-19 22:50         ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-19 15:35     ` Re[4]: [9fans] home, end ^h^j^k^l James A. Robinson
2001-05-19 20:36     ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-19 23:30     ` Richard Elberger
2001-05-20  2:37     ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20  7:03     ` Lucio De Re
2001-05-20 11:16     ` paurea
2001-05-20 13:11       ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20 13:04     ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-23  8:24     ` Randolph Fritz
2001-05-23  8:46       ` Re[6]: " Matt H
2001-05-23  9:04         ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20  0:16   ` [9fans] ls -m rob pike
2001-05-20  0:31     ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20  1:38     ` [9fans] mouse vs key Scott Schwartz
2001-05-20  6:29       ` Dan Cross
2001-05-20  8:09       ` Matt H
2001-05-20 11:35         ` Re[2]: [9fans] mouse vs key - nethack matt
2001-05-20 13:13           ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20 12:50         ` [9fans] mouse vs key Boyd Roberts
2001-05-29  4:27   ` [9fans] src vs db rob pike
2001-05-29  4:37     ` Scott Schwartz
2001-07-11 19:22   ` [9fans] sam vs acme rob pike
2001-07-11 20:08     ` James A. Robinson
2001-08-14 12:54   ` [9fans] User Interface rob pike
2001-08-14 15:01     ` James A. Robinson
2001-08-16 13:45     ` phaet0n
2001-08-20  8:57     ` Randolph Fritz
2001-12-02  3:10   ` [9fans] plumb rob pike
2001-12-02  3:31     ` Scott Schwartz
2002-01-30  5:52   ` [9fans] venti rob pike
2002-01-30  6:23     ` George Michaelson
2002-01-30  8:07     ` paurea
2002-01-30 11:17     ` Boyd Roberts
2002-03-01  6:20   ` Fwd: Re: [9fans] samuel (fwd) rob pike
2002-03-01  6:34     ` George Michaelson
2002-03-01 12:04     ` Boyd Roberts
2002-04-27 16:35   ` [9fans] Fourth Release of Plan 9 Now Available rob pike, esq.
2002-04-27 18:24     ` Scott Schwartz
2002-04-27 22:14     ` Laura Creighton
2002-04-29  9:37     ` Andrew
2002-06-28 16:49   ` [9fans] dumb question rob pike, esq.
2002-06-29  2:23     ` Scott Schwartz
2000-09-07 21:57 [9fans] new versions of graphics programs? rob pike
2000-09-07 22:50 ` Jim Choate
     [not found]   ` <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
2000-09-07 22:35     ` Tom Duff
2000-09-07 23:24       ` Jim Choate
2000-09-08 15:28         ` please_no_spam_to_
     [not found]           ` <D.M.Pick@qmw.ac.uk>
2000-09-08 16:43             ` Tom Duff
2001-05-19  8:29 Re[2]: [9fans] home, end ^h^j^k^l Russ Cox
2001-05-19  8:44 ` Re[4]: " Matt H
2001-05-19  8:48 Russ Cox
2001-05-19 20:28 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-19  9:17 forsyth
2001-05-19 15:39 rob pike
2001-05-19 17:07 Re[2]: " Quinn Dunkan
2001-05-19 16:00 ` Re[4]: " Matt H
2001-05-19 20:46   ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-09 17:22 [9fans] could those of you who have students check this out for forsyth
2001-06-09 18:50 ` [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science andrey mirtchovski
2001-06-09 17:56   ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-11  8:27     ` pac
2001-06-11 15:19     ` Dan Cross
2001-06-11 21:43       ` Boyd Roberts
     [not found]       ` <0cb501c0f2bf$97cacea0$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>
2001-06-11 22:43         ` paurea
2001-06-12 14:18           ` Dan Cross
2001-06-12 15:50             ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12 18:48               ` Dan Cross
2001-06-12  0:09   ` Scott Merrilees
2001-06-12  0:16     ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12  0:42       ` Scott Merrilees
2001-06-12  1:08         ` Boyd Roberts
     [not found]   ` <0cc301c0f2c0$78949560$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>
2001-06-12 14:12     ` Dan Cross
2001-06-16 23:34   ` Matt
2001-06-28 21:29     ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-28 22:03       ` Matt
2001-06-28 23:20         ` George Michaelson
2001-06-29 21:27           ` Boyd Roberts
2001-07-18 15:49           ` Ralph Corderoy
2001-06-29  4:30         ` Lucio De Re
     [not found] <vikki@proweb.co.uk>
2001-06-10 17:32 ` [9fans] string to list? vikki
2001-06-10 17:47   ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-10 17:55   ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-10 18:03   ` Scott Schwartz
2001-06-10 21:48     ` Matt
2001-06-10 22:24       ` Scott Schwartz
2001-06-10 22:30         ` Boyd Roberts
     [not found] <matt@proweb.co.uk>
2001-06-12  0:39 ` [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out Matt
2001-06-12  0:55   ` Scott Schwartz
2001-06-12  1:12     ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12  1:00   ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12  1:30     ` Jonathan Sergent
2001-06-15  8:27     ` Hermann Samso
2001-06-15 11:53       ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-15 12:18         ` Matt
2001-06-15 14:01         ` Matt
2001-06-15 14:25           ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-26 16:33 [9fans] bitsy question John Packer
2001-06-26 17:10 ` [9fans] " Dan Cross
2001-06-26 19:51   ` John Packer
2001-06-26 20:34     ` Dan Cross
2001-06-29 22:32       ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-27  1:15     ` [9fans] Two cpu servers? Ish Rattan
2001-06-26 20:09   ` [9fans] Re: bitsy question John Packer
2001-06-26 20:36     ` Dan Cross
2001-06-26 20:18   ` Latchesar Ionkov
2001-06-26 20:28     ` Matt
2001-06-26 22:13       ` Steve Kilbane
2001-07-12  8:42 [9fans] architectures forsyth
2001-07-12 13:56 ` Laura Creighton
2001-07-12 16:13 ` Ozan Yigit
2001-07-12 16:33   ` Matt
2001-07-12 18:12     ` Scott Schwartz
2001-07-12 18:16       ` Martin Harriss
2001-07-12 18:43       ` Dan Cross
2001-07-13 14:52         ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-07-13 15:13           ` Boyd Roberts
2001-10-25 17:55 [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9 Russ Cox
2001-10-25 18:29 ` William Josephson
2001-10-26  8:09   ` [9fans] acme bug/annoyance? Matt
2001-10-26 11:36     ` rob pike
2001-10-26 14:43       ` Scott Schwartz
2001-10-29 10:16   ` [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9 John S. Dyson
2002-01-20 20:02 [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help Roshan James
2002-01-20 21:01 ` Matt H
2002-01-20 22:02   ` Scott Schwartz
2002-01-22  9:54     ` ozan s yigit
2002-01-23 10:05       ` Bakul Shah
2002-01-21 10:22   ` Boyd Roberts
2002-01-21 10:40     ` John Murdie
2002-01-20 21:03 ` William S.
2002-01-20 21:34 ` William Josephson
2002-01-21  6:53 ` cej

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