* Re: [9fans] Re: Solaris thread scheaduling
@ 2000-08-18 15:34 rob pike
[not found] ` <rob@plan9.bell-labs.com>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: rob pike @ 2000-08-18 15:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
What, we should use uncooperative threads?
Adversarial threads? Anarchic threads?
I guess I don't know the terminology. If POSIX threads
are a good thing, perhaps I don't want to know what they're
better than.
-rob
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] new versions of graphics programs?
@ 2000-09-07 21:57 rob pike
2000-09-07 22:50 ` Jim Choate
0 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: rob pike @ 2000-09-07 21:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
I started on a couple of the tools. Since the PIC format is
now largely irrelevant - the standard image format captures
much of its capabilities - it seemed worth retiring the fb
software. Retiring it also helped keep the distribution smaller
and easier to assemble. But clearly, some of the tools in
fb/ are worth having.
I worked on a couple of the tools and stumbled into original
bugs that I didn't see how to fix, so that project has stalled.
The shipped gif and jpg tools and the iconv program should
address some of the lower-level needs. Higher-level
image processing is a project for a dedicated soul; it's a big
job.
-rob
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
@ 2001-02-03 23:40 Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-02-03 23:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
has anyone done it?
it's just a fairly simple keyboard remapping as qwerty is
pretty close to azerty. the translation is always done
in software, from what i've seen 'cos the keyboards generate
'standard' scan codes, but the keytops are labelled differently.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
@ 2001-02-04 0:54 rob pike
2001-02-04 1:19 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: rob pike @ 2001-02-04 0:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Pipefile might help, but the handling of Alt might complicate
matters and require a teeny bit of help in the kernel. You could
easily build a special PC-only raw keyboard file and use pipefile
to connect a special processor to that, but then you introduce
problem of bypassing special code in devcons.c. The most
satisfactory way might be to provide a mapping operation in
devcons.c, like the button swapper in the mouse code, that
accepts pairs to exchange, like this:
az
za
-rob
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
2001-02-04 0:54 rob pike
@ 2001-02-04 1:19 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-04 1:23 ` andrey mirtchovski
0 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-02-04 1:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> The most satisfactory way might be to provide a mapping operation in
> devcons.c,
i'd thought of writing 'azerty' or 'qwerty' to consctl to get it
to swap mappings. will have a bit of a ponder before hacking away.
may need some machine specific hook to get 'alt graphic' to work.
at least when i was at digital, in paris, we had nothing but qwerty
keyboards. in the real world it's 99% azerty. want to see a nasty
keyboard? check out the HP 9000 series console keyboards. stuff
like | and others aren't even marked on the keytops!
a truly superb piece of engineering and that's before the damn
thing boots. the big ones can take 20 minutes.
even a vax 780 with an la-120 booted faster than that.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
2001-02-04 1:19 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-02-04 1:23 ` andrey mirtchovski
2001-02-04 1:37 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: andrey mirtchovski @ 2001-02-04 1:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
well, you know what they say in germany:
qwertz ruley...
Boyd Roberts wrote:
> at least when i was at digital, in paris, we had nothing but qwerty
> keyboards. in the real world it's 99% azerty. want to see a nasty
> keyboard? check out the HP 9000 series console keyboards. stuff
> like | and others aren't even marked on the keytops!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
2001-02-04 1:23 ` andrey mirtchovski
@ 2001-02-04 1:37 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-02-04 1:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
on another note i remember asking rob, a long time ago,
why, on plan 9, the accent was typed before the character,
because that's not the way you write them.
anyway, with every azerty keyboard i've seen they're all
like that -- totally counter-intuitive.
but it can always get worse. would you like to match
the beginning of the line with a regex? well as soon
as you type ^ it goes into 'i'd better wait until i
see what the next character is' mode. this is a real
pain when you want to match:
^a
^e
^i
^o
^u
etc...
so you type ^ <space> <char>.
same problem with ~.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
@ 2001-02-04 0:55 rob pike
2001-02-04 1:09 ` Boyd Roberts
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: rob pike @ 2001-02-04 0:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
I remember sitting in a Paris Internet café being confounded
by the miserable keyboard, in which everything was UPPER CASE
and CAPS LOCK was really SHIFT LOCK and the letters were in
different places and - worst of all - period, comma, semicolon,
and the other punctuation characters were in screwy places.
I sympathize.
-rob
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
2001-02-04 0:55 rob pike
@ 2001-02-04 1:09 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-04 4:29 ` Fariborz 'Skip' Tavakkolian
2001-02-05 5:59 ` Dan Cross
2 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-02-04 1:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> I sympathize.
it's not that bad type text on, i can do my usual 120wpm on it, but to write
code?
it is _absolutely ghastly_ -- all the special chars are in stupid places. i've
written
maybe 50k+ lines of code on one of these things.
i forgot, in my previous posting, that there's another problem, 'cos there's
another
shift key [Alt Graphic] to give you:
~ # { [ | ` \ ^ @ ] } ¤
i'd like to be able to push it onto /dev/cons, rather than hacking up all the
kbd.c's.
then again, i could just limit it to the pc. although from looking at the
source
i'm beginning to think that it's a nasty problem.
eg: hitting the '2' key gives an é [e acute] and that's 8 bits, which may have
ramifications all the way up the line.
this is going to require some thought. maybe i'll have a hack at it after
they've
had a hack at my tibia, in hospital, next week.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
2001-02-04 0:55 rob pike
2001-02-04 1:09 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-02-04 4:29 ` Fariborz 'Skip' Tavakkolian
2001-02-04 13:28 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-04 14:09 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-05 5:59 ` Dan Cross
2 siblings, 2 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Fariborz 'Skip' Tavakkolian @ 2001-02-04 4:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
It is strange how these things always happen in Paris. A couple of
months ago I was in Paris trying to debug some software on a
Swedish Linux box which came without its USB keyboard. A quick
shopping trip, and there it was, a French keyboard! Americans, typing
on a French keyboard, on an OS that expected a Swedish keyboard.
We never did figure out how to type "; fortunately we had cut&paste.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
2001-02-04 0:55 rob pike
2001-02-04 1:09 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-04 4:29 ` Fariborz 'Skip' Tavakkolian
@ 2001-02-05 5:59 ` Dan Cross
2 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-02-05 5:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
In article <20010204005601.306EE199D7@mail.cse.psu.edu> you write:
>I remember sitting in a Paris Internet caf being confounded
>by the miserable keyboard, in which everything was UPPER CASE
>and CAPS LOCK was really SHIFT LOCK and the letters were in
>different places and - worst of all - period, comma, semicolon,
>and the other punctuation characters were in screwy places.
>I sympathize.
what, you didn't take your happy hacking keyboard with you?
(Yeah, I'm ignoring the fact that in said Paris Internet
Cafe, you were probably using an OS that expected a French
keyboard....)
- Dan C.
ps- what keyboards are Bell Labs folks using now, anyways?
I like the HHKB, except that it doesn't have a builtin ``view''
key, and I don't dig on the idea of having to hit ``fn'' to
use the error keys as view.... I thought it would be cool
to map the left alt/meta keys to Alt, and the right alt/meta
keys to up and view, respecticely. I don't have a machine
up which will take my HHKB right now, though, as my thinkpad
doesn't seem to be able to take an external keyboard.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
@ 2001-02-05 1:33 okamoto
2001-02-05 1:40 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: okamoto @ 2001-02-05 1:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 246 bytes --]
This is a simillar case for our JIS keyboard. I replaced the key-mapping table in
/sys/src/9/pc/kbd.c which can be found
http:/basalt/cias/osakafu-u.ac.jp/plan9/p9index.html.
However, this is of course for Japanese keyboard. :-)
Kenji
[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 2253 bytes --]
From: "Boyd Roberts" <boyd@planete.net>
To: <9fans@cs.psu.edu>
Subject: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 00:40:34 +0100
Message-ID: <000f01c08e3a$b46773e0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
has anyone done it?
it's just a fairly simple keyboard remapping as qwerty is
pretty close to azerty. the translation is always done
in software, from what i've seen 'cos the keyboards generate
'standard' scan codes, but the keytops are labelled differently.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
2001-02-05 1:33 okamoto
@ 2001-02-05 1:40 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-02-05 1:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> This is a simillar case for our JIS keyboard. I replaced the key-mapping
table in
> /sys/src/9/pc/kbd.c which can be found
> http:/basalt/cias/osakafu-u.ac.jp/plan9/p9index.html.
> However, this is of course for Japanese keyboard. :-)
thanks. charles forsyth sent me along some stuff that does
it in a generic way. it turns up as /dev/kbmap. you read/write
it as:
[012] <scan-code> <decimal-rune>
0 = unshifted
1 = shifted
2 = alt graphic shifted
managed to install it and boot it and everything.
will attack the azerty map tomorrow.
you need a modified pc/kbd.c too.
neat piece of code.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
@ 2001-02-05 7:51 Jean Mehat
0 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Jean Mehat @ 2001-02-05 7:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans; +Cc: sami
Sami Ilekti has added azerty support to the PC kernel. The last time I heard
from him, he had hacked the translation tables, and was considering a more
general way to remap the keyboard.
You can find him at sami@mime.univ-paris8.fr.
--
Jean Mehat, universite de Paris 8 Vincennes a Saint Denis,
jm@ai.univ-paris8.fr, (33) 1 4940 6403, (33) 1 4940 6783 (fax)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
@ 2001-02-05 8:05 anothy
2001-02-05 18:36 ` Dan Cross
0 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: anothy @ 2001-02-05 8:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
//I like the HHKB, except that it doesn't have a
//builtin ``view'' key...
not to be contrary, but i'm using one right now,
and yes it does. it may depend on that sliding
switch on the back - mine's all the way to the
left, when viewed from a normal typing position.
the two "diamond" keys are View and Un-View (uh,
what's that called again?). the one on the right
of the keyboard even reverses function with the
shift key, in case you have the left one mapped
to Fn or control or something.
it required a few lines in the kbtab* tables in
kbd.c. those three lines represent my first
contribution to the Plan 9 kernel, just after we
got our HHKBs.
-α.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
2001-02-05 8:05 anothy
@ 2001-02-05 18:36 ` Dan Cross
0 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-02-05 18:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
In article <20010205080554.EB3A6199F3@mail.cse.psu.edu> you write:
>//I like the HHKB, except that it doesn't have a
>//builtin ``view'' key...
>
>not to be contrary, but i'm using one right now, and yes it does.
Not at all; this is great news. I really like the HHKB, but I found it
a pain to use under Unix due to the need to hit ``fn'' to get arrow
keys and other such things. Plan 9 promises to be a much more
habitable environment.
>it may depend on that sliding
>switch on the back - mine's all the way to the
>left, when viewed from a normal typing position.
>the two "diamond" keys are View and Un-View (uh,
>what's that called again?). the one on the right
>of the keyboard even reverses function with the
>shift key, in case you have the left one mapped
>to Fn or control or something.
Cool, I can dig it.
>it required a few lines in the kbtab* tables in
>kbd.c. those three lines represent my first
>contribution to the Plan 9 kernel, just after we
>got our HHKBs.
Rock and roll.... Too bad I can't plug my HHKB into my Thinkpad. :-(
- Dan C.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
@ 2001-02-05 10:34 Boyd Roberts
2001-02-05 13:07 ` paurea
2001-02-05 18:44 ` Dan Cross
0 siblings, 2 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-02-05 10:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> (Yeah, I'm ignoring the fact that in said Paris Internet
> Cafe, you were probably using an OS that expected a French
> keyboard....)
no. the scan codes from pc keyboards do not change, just
the keytops. then, the translation is done in s/w. you
only really need a french keyboard if you want to type
latin-1, a superset of ascii.
i always liked the 5620 keyboard. the sony vaio's
is pretty close to that (well my 505's is); touch,
key size and shape.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
2001-02-05 10:34 Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-02-05 13:07 ` paurea
2001-02-05 13:15 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-05 18:44 ` Dan Cross
1 sibling, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: paurea @ 2001-02-05 13:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Boyd Roberts writes:
> From: "Boyd Roberts" <boyd@planete.net>
[...]
> only really need a french keyboard if you want to type
> latin-1, a superset of ascii.
>
Not really. You can use, for example, an spanish keyboard, which is qwerty,
at least, and has all the latin-1 characters. You would have all the
punctuation marks scrambled up, but the letters would be in place...
--
Saludos,
Gorka
"Curiosity sKilled the cat"
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
2001-02-05 13:07 ` paurea
@ 2001-02-05 13:15 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-02-05 13:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> Not really. You can use, for example, an spanish keyboard, which is qwerty,
> at least, and has all the latin-1 characters. You would have all the
> punctuation marks scrambled up, but the letters would be in place...
the question was whether you needed a french keyboard for
a french pc and the answer is: no.
inputing of latin-1 had nothing to do with that discussion.
and no, it's not just a simple question of the letters.
eg:
m and ; are swapped
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
2001-02-05 10:34 Boyd Roberts
2001-02-05 13:07 ` paurea
@ 2001-02-05 18:44 ` Dan Cross
1 sibling, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-02-05 18:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
In article <018901c08f5f$276e9ec0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr> you write:
>> (Yeah, I'm ignoring the fact that in said Paris Internet
>> Cafe, you were probably using an OS that expected a French
>> keyboard....)
>
>no. the scan codes from pc keyboards do not change, just
>the keytops. then, the translation is done in s/w. you
>only really need a french keyboard if you want to type
>latin-1, a superset of ascii.
Oh, okay. Then I'll repeat my question to Rob, ``what, you didn't
have your happy hacking keyboard with you?'' :-)
I remember using a computer in Israel one time. My friend's father
asked me, ``can you take a look at my old computer? I want to fix
it up and give it to my daughter....'' ``Uhh, I don't really do
Windows, so, I don't know if I'd be much help....'' ``Of course you
would! Here, have a look.''
Well, the keyboard had mixed English/Hebrew keycaps, which threw me
off whenever I looked at it. Luckily, I touch-type most of the time,
so it wasn't that big of a deal. Windows 95 was the Israeli edition,
so all of the text, including dialogue boxes, was in Hebrew. I can't
read Hebrew. I had to have people read the contents of every text
window on the system and translate into English before I could do
anything.... It was disconcerting.
>i always liked the 5620 keyboard. the sony vaio's
>is pretty close to that (well my 505's is); touch,
>key size and shape.
There's got to be a better way to handle keyboards than all this
magic in the kernel....
- Dan C.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
@ 2001-02-05 14:44 jmk
2001-02-05 18:46 ` Dan Cross
2001-02-05 19:11 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 2 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: jmk @ 2001-02-05 14:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Dan Cross <cross@math.psu.edu>:
ps- what keyboards are Bell Labs folks using now, anyways?
we're still using the same keyboards we were using last time this
question came up, the old eighty-something key lexmarks; i have a
couple on the shelf in case any die. however, more of us are using
laptops as we have wireless both at work and at home so the need
to buy more keyboards is diminished. personally, i like the thinkpad
keyboard best.
--jim
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
2001-02-05 14:44 jmk
@ 2001-02-05 18:46 ` Dan Cross
2001-02-05 19:11 ` Boyd Roberts
1 sibling, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-02-05 18:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
In article <20010205144434.189C3199F3@mail.cse.psu.edu> you write:
>Dan Cross <cross@math.psu.edu>:
> ps- what keyboards are Bell Labs folks using now, anyways?
>
>we're still using the same keyboards we were using last time this
>question came up, the old eighty-something key lexmarks; i have a
>couple on the shelf in case any die. however, more of us are using
>laptops as we have wireless both at work and at home so the need
>to buy more keyboards is diminished. personally, i like the thinkpad
>keyboard best.
Yeah, the keyboard was one of the reasons I decided to buy a
Thinkpad.
That said, I'd like to get my hands on one of these lexmark
keyboards, but of course they're no longer manufactured.
It looks like we're going to be stuck with the Windows key no
matter how much we dislike it.
- Dan C.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
2001-02-05 14:44 jmk
2001-02-05 18:46 ` Dan Cross
@ 2001-02-05 19:11 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-06 5:11 ` Dan Cross
1 sibling, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-02-05 19:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> There's got to be a better way to handle keyboards than all this
> magic in the kernel....
i was of that opinion, but that would mean 3 zillion different
keyboard types which would increase manufacturing costs. all
you they do (in general) is to stick the right set of keytops
on and a scan-code/character table is set up to match the
keytops. you have to do the translation anyway and a table
lookup costs nothing. in general it's done by some black art.
the fix charles sent me is small and elegant and should
work for some subset of japanese keyboards i think. if i
remember, some have a shift, left shift and right shift keys
(ie. 4 potential characters on each key).
however, japanese is a more complicated case. what i've seen
is that you have a piece of code that sorts the kanji you use
on a frequency basis, you type the stem of the prononciation
and cycle through them till you get the one you want.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
2001-02-05 19:11 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-02-06 5:11 ` Dan Cross
0 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-02-06 5:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
In article <038f01c08fa7$74fe30e0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr> you write:
>i was of that opinion, but that would mean 3 zillion different
>keyboard types which would increase manufacturing costs. all
>you they do (in general) is to stick the right set of keytops
>on and a scan-code/character table is set up to match the
>keytops. you have to do the translation anyway and a table
>lookup costs nothing. in general it's done by some black art.
>
>the fix charles sent me is small and elegant and should
>work for some subset of japanese keyboards i think. if i
>remember, some have a shift, left shift and right shift keys
>(ie. 4 potential characters on each key).
This is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about; making
a table driven translation machine driven by a little language.
What I don't like is the hardcoded tables in devcons.c.
I'll go out on a limb and say that I'd rather not see it in
the kernel at all, though. Maybe a very basic kernel based
driver for basic I/O, but then hook into a user level program
to do all the real processing. kbdfs, anyway? :-)
>however, japanese is a more complicated case. what i've seen
>is that you have a piece of code that sorts the kanji you use
>on a frequency basis, you type the stem of the prononciation
>and cycle through them till you get the one you want.
Ouch, that seems cumbersome, to put it mildly. :-( No offense
to the Japanese members of 9fans, but I'm glad I don't have to
type the language. :-)
- Dan C.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
@ 2001-02-05 18:55 jmk
0 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: jmk @ 2001-02-05 18:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On Mon Feb 5 13:47:20 EST 2001, cross@math.psu.edu wrote:
> That said, I'd like to get my hands on one of these lexmark
> keyboards, but of course they're no longer manufactured.
you can still get them:
http://www.pckeyboard.com/surfer.html
$89 without pointing stick, $99 with.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
@ 2001-02-05 19:23 Ed Wishart
2001-02-06 5:20 ` Dan Cross
0 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: Ed Wishart @ 2001-02-05 19:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
You might consider the BTC 5100. I use one at home and work, measures
< 6 by 12 inches. Works great with plan 9, windows, Linux. A search
on Yahoo for BTC 5100 turned up 399 web pages. Must be still available.
To quote paul vixie: ``If God uses a keyboard, he uses a BTC 5100.''
(This quote is from memory)
ed
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
2001-02-05 19:23 Ed Wishart
@ 2001-02-06 5:20 ` Dan Cross
0 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-02-06 5:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
In article <200102051923.LAA01104@pyramid.cs.unr.edu> you write:
>You might consider the BTC 5100. I use one at home and work, measures
>< 6 by 12 inches. Works great with plan 9, windows, Linux. A search
>on Yahoo for BTC 5100 turned up 399 web pages. Must be still available.
>To quote paul vixie: ``If God uses a keyboard, he uses a BTC 5100.''
>(This quote is from memory)
I remember looking at the BTC 5100 right before I got my HHKB. I
didn't like it all that much (that is, the pictures that I saw....); I
thought that the layout was too ``busy''.
Probably the best looking keyboard I ever saw was the DEC Unix keyboard
that one could get on Ultrix machines and early Alphas. There's a picture
on PFU's keyboard collection web page. Also, the IBM 84 keyboard rocked.
From the looks of it, the Apple Newton keyboard would be my favorite if
they would jsut get rid of caps lock, put control in the right place, and
get rid of the power key....It'd look a lot like the HHKB with arrow keys.
Man, I'd pay money for someone to make one of those....
- Dan C.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
@ 2001-02-06 1:15 okamoto
2001-02-06 1:19 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-06 5:50 ` Dan Cross
0 siblings, 2 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: okamoto @ 2001-02-06 1:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>I remember using a computer in Israel one time.
I was much surprised to see there that my friend, incidently his name is
also Dan ^_^, typed hibble from right to left. :-) How Plan 9 can deel with
it...
Kenji
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
2001-02-06 1:15 okamoto
@ 2001-02-06 1:19 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-06 5:50 ` Dan Cross
1 sibling, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-02-06 1:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> I was much surprised to see there that my friend, incidently his name is
> also Dan ^_^, typed hibble from right to left. :-) How Plan 9 can deel with
> it...
well, unicode can, but that was a mistake.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
2001-02-06 1:15 okamoto
2001-02-06 1:19 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-02-06 5:50 ` Dan Cross
1 sibling, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-02-06 5:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
In article <20010206011623.D71FC19A01@mail.cse.psu.edu> you write:
>>I remember using a computer in Israel one time.
>
>I was much surprised to see there that my friend, incidently his name is
>also Dan ^_^, typed hibble from right to left. :-) How Plan 9 can deel with
>it...
Dan's a pretty common name in that part of the world, but it's
pronounced differently. :-)
I forgot about the right-to-left thing. Try picking up a Hebrew or
Arabic book sometime...it's a weird experience. It took me literally a
minute to figure out how to open the thing right side up; my friend's
mother finally got so disgusted she took it, opened it for me and then
handed it back.
The font issue can be weird, though. Years ago, I installed FreeBSD on
my Israeli friend's computer when she was writing her thesis. Anyway,
I installed some Hebrew fonts for X11 at the same time. To test them
out, we did something like telnet to an Israeli machine.... The
characters displayed correctly, but from left to right, not the correct
right to left. She said, ``yeah, they look okay, but it's
backwards....'' We never did figure out an adequate solution.
- Dan C.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
@ 2001-02-06 1:33 okamoto
2001-02-06 1:41 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: okamoto @ 2001-02-06 1:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> you type the stem of the prononciation
>and cycle through them till you get the one you want.
I still hate to use "kana" on the keytop, and use Romaji input. Actually, I've
never seen any scientist uses that "kana" keytop. Those are for untrained
persons, if still there is such in Japan...
Kenji
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
@ 2001-02-06 2:05 okamoto
2001-02-06 2:13 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-06 5:53 ` Dan Cross
0 siblings, 2 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: okamoto @ 2001-02-06 2:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Do you know what is happening in Japan now as "Keitai" (NTT Docomo i-mode
in other word). That mobile phone has ten keys, and each has
only one of "あかさたなはまやらわ"etc keytop. Inputting Japanese
on such machine looks like a game to me. If you want to write somewhat long e-mail, you will be much troubled. ^_^
Kenji
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
2001-02-06 2:05 okamoto
@ 2001-02-06 2:13 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-06 11:02 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-06 14:57 ` Wladimir Mutel
2001-02-06 5:53 ` Dan Cross
1 sibling, 2 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-02-06 2:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> Inputting Japanese on such machine looks like a game to me.
inputting english in the same manner to send GSM SMS's is a bad joke too.
there's some term to describe the:
abc def
ghi jkl mno
pqrs tuv wxyz
layout used by GSM mobile, but i forget.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
2001-02-06 2:13 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-02-06 11:02 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-06 17:01 ` Dan Cross
2001-02-06 14:57 ` Wladimir Mutel
1 sibling, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-02-06 11:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> I'll go out on a limb and say that I'd rather not see it in
> the kernel at all, though. Maybe a very basic kernel based
> driver for basic I/O, but then hook into a user level program
> to do all the real processing. kbdfs, anyway? :-)
that's a really bad idea. 2 context switches per character typed when
all that's required is one translation table in the most extreme case
(64k runes * 2 bytes = 128k). obvious that sort of a table is ridiculous,
even though 128k now isn't much, but all you need is a table (or
set of tables) that cover all the possible scan code and store the
matching rune.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
2001-02-06 11:02 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-02-06 17:01 ` Dan Cross
0 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-02-06 17:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
In article <05c401c0902c$457489c0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr> you write:
>that's a really bad idea. 2 context switches per character typed when
>all that's required is one translation table in the most extreme case
>(64k runes * 2 bytes = 128k). obvious that sort of a table is ridiculous,
>even though 128k now isn't much, but all you need is a table (or
>set of tables) that cover all the possible scan code and store the
>matching rune.
Yeah, I thought about the context switch thing, but mentally justified
it to myself by way of figuring that keyboard input is so relatively
infrequent that it wouldn't be a big deal.
The problem with the tables in their present form is that they're not
very flexible; to change the meaning of a key, one has to rebuild the
kernel. Well, that sucks, but the only two solutions are to add some
sort of way to change the translation tables in the kernel, or to move
keyboard processing into user land.
I'm not sure that the added complexity in the kernel is justified by
saving a couple of context switches, bearing in mind that a few million
instructions will go by between every keystroke.
Then again, I'm sure the code that Charles sent you doesn't add much
complexity to the kernel. My fear, however, is that bloat will
eventually creep in if a bunch of such things, each not very complex in
and of itself, is added to the kernel....this is what I feel happened
to Unix.
- Dan C.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
2001-02-06 2:13 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-06 11:02 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-02-06 14:57 ` Wladimir Mutel
2001-02-06 18:34 ` Theo Honohan
2001-02-09 16:49 ` Boyd Roberts
1 sibling, 2 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Wladimir Mutel @ 2001-02-06 14:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
In article <05a601c08fe2$73335a20$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr> you wrote:
>> Inputting Japanese on such machine looks like a game to me.
> inputting english in the same manner to send GSM SMS's is a bad joke too.
> there's some term to describe the:
> abc def
> ghi jkl mno
> pqrs tuv wxyz
> layout used by GSM mobile, but i forget.
It's called T9 , right ?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
2001-02-06 2:05 okamoto
2001-02-06 2:13 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-02-06 5:53 ` Dan Cross
1 sibling, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-02-06 5:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
In article <20010206020645.7213119A01@mail.cse.psu.edu> you write:
>Do you know what is happening in Japan now as "Keitai" (NTT Docomo i-mode
>in other word). That mobile phone has ten keys, and each has
>only one of ""etc keytop. Inputting Japanese
>on such machine looks like a game to me. If you want to write somewhat
>long e-mail, you will be much troubled. ^_^
It's thing in the US with cell phones and English. Personally, I find
it really painful.
I'm not sure why people want to reinvent the web on cell phones and
PDA's, which is basically what WAP and iMode do. :-(
- Dan C.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
@ 2001-02-06 11:15 forsyth
0 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: forsyth @ 2001-02-06 11:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 310 bytes --]
i'd add a mapping e$ -> 20AC to /lib/keyboard and remake the kernel.
then alt e$ will produce the euro symbol as l$ produces pound sterling and
y$ produces yen.
interpreting plain alt e as euro would mess up existing mappings
because there are several alt escapes in /lib/keyboard
that start with e.
[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1710 bytes --]
From: William Staniewicz <wstan@localhostnl.demon.nl>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:34:03 -0500
Message-ID: <20010206073748.49391199EA@mail.cse.psu.edu>
I have been using an Italian keyboard for the last several
months. I am not concerned about remapping all the keys
since I now have gotten used to where everything is.
However, the is a Euro dollar key that I would like to
implement. Is there a simple way on Plan9 to assign this
symbol to my "e" <alt> position?
-Bill
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
@ 2001-02-06 13:34 William Staniewicz
0 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: William Staniewicz @ 2001-02-06 13:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
I have been using an Italian keyboard for the last several
months. I am not concerned about remapping all the keys
since I now have gotten used to where everything is.
However, the is a Euro dollar key that I would like to
implement. Is there a simple way on Plan9 to assign this
symbol to my "e" <alt> position?
-Bill
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
@ 2001-02-06 16:19 rob pike
0 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: rob pike @ 2001-02-06 16:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 203 bytes --]
What is the difference between unicode symbols 20A0 and 20AC?
Which should have which escape sequence? I'll put what's appropriate
in /lib/keyboard here but I'm not the right judge of that.
-rob
[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 3519 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2.1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 310 bytes --]
i'd add a mapping e$ -> 20AC to /lib/keyboard and remake the kernel.
then alt e$ will produce the euro symbol as l$ produces pound sterling and
y$ produces yen.
interpreting plain alt e as euro would mess up existing mappings
because there are several alt escapes in /lib/keyboard
that start with e.
[-- Attachment #2.1.2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1710 bytes --]
From: William Staniewicz <wstan@localhostnl.demon.nl>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:34:03 -0500
Message-ID: <20010206073748.49391199EA@mail.cse.psu.edu>
I have been using an Italian keyboard for the last several
months. I am not concerned about remapping all the keys
since I now have gotten used to where everything is.
However, the is a Euro dollar key that I would like to
implement. Is there a simple way on Plan9 to assign this
symbol to my "e" <alt> position?
-Bill
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
@ 2001-02-06 16:44 Richard Miller
0 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Richard Miller @ 2001-02-06 16:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> What is the difference between unicode symbols 20A0 and 20AC?
20A0 is an old generic "euro-currency" symbol, assigned before the Euro was
invented. 20AC is correct for the Euro.
-- Richard Miller
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
@ 2001-02-06 20:52 Russ Cox
0 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Russ Cox @ 2001-02-06 20:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Yes, that's right except you want to call it
9pccpud (assuming you're running a cpu server)
since the boot loader doesn't know about the
long file names.
Russ
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support
@ 2001-02-07 2:11 William Staniewicz
0 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: William Staniewicz @ 2001-02-07 2:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans; +Cc: forsyth
So are these steps correct?
Edit '/lib/keyboard' as follows ...
0451 @yo ё cyrillic small letter io
20AC e$ euro dollar
2018 l' ‘ single turned comma quotation mark
2019 r' ’ single comma quotation mark
Then rebuild the kernel ...
cd /sys/src/9/pc
mk 'CONF=pccpudisk'
cp 9pccpudisk /386
9fat:
cp 9pccpudisk /n/9fat/sdC0
After that I would reboot and everything would be cool?
Sorry if this seems basic. I am still learning.
-Bill
>
> i'd add a mapping e$ -> 20AC to /lib/keyboard and remake the kernel.
> then alt e$ will produce the euro symbol as l$ produces pound sterling and
> y$ produces yen.
>
> interpreting plain alt e as euro would mess up existing mappings
> because there are several alt escapes in /lib/keyboard
> that start with e.
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] could those of you who have students check this out for
@ 2001-06-09 17:22 forsyth
2001-06-09 18:50 ` [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science andrey mirtchovski
0 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: forsyth @ 2001-06-09 17:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>>our computer science department has strong roots in algorithmics.
that might be true, but do the students, in the main, write programs
except those they are required to do for assessments and projects?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-09 17:22 [9fans] could those of you who have students check this out for forsyth
@ 2001-06-09 18:50 ` andrey mirtchovski
2001-06-09 17:56 ` Boyd Roberts
` (3 more replies)
0 siblings, 4 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: andrey mirtchovski @ 2001-06-09 18:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
unfortunately dan cross is very right in his analysis -- most of the
students care not for algorithmics. the three classes i listed are the most
hated ones (together with the "Systems Programming and Introduction to
Operating Systems", the UNIX class) simply because they actually make the
students think...
there are the occasional bad apples who explore the field, write code
and are interested in the 'science' part of 'computer science'.. the others
are happy to get their 3 year degrees and drone off to the job market.
andrey
On Sat, 9 Jun 2001 forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk wrote:
> >>our computer science department has strong roots in algorithmics.
>
> that might be true, but do the students, in the main, write programs
> except those they are required to do for assessments and projects?
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-09 18:50 ` [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science andrey mirtchovski
@ 2001-06-09 17:56 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-11 8:27 ` pac
2001-06-11 15:19 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-12 0:09 ` Scott Merrilees
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 2 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-06-09 17:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
i don't think i'd go so far to call it a science -- more like an art.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-09 17:56 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-06-11 8:27 ` pac
2001-06-11 15:19 ` Dan Cross
1 sibling, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: pac @ 2001-06-11 8:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
IMHO, CS is to mathematics, as medicine is to biology; personally, I call them both "technology" :-(
Peter
--
Peter A. Cejchan
Dept. Paleobiology, Inst. Geology Acad. Sci.,
Rozvojova 135, Prague 6
CZ-16502 Czech Republic
<cej@cejchan.gli.cas.cz>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A plea:
Please, consider your support to the Public Library of Science initiative at
http://www.publiclibraryofscience.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-09 17:56 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-11 8:27 ` pac
@ 2001-06-11 15:19 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-11 21:43 ` Boyd Roberts
[not found] ` <0cb501c0f2bf$97cacea0$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>
1 sibling, 2 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-06-11 15:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
In article <041601c0f10d$72dabaa0$e8b7c6d4@SOMA> you write:
>i don't think i'd go so far to call it a science -- more like an art.
Okay, this is getting way off topic for 9fans, but, let me ask
this: at the real abstract, pure level, is science any different
at all from art? I contend that they're one and the same.
- Dan C.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-11 15:19 ` Dan Cross
@ 2001-06-11 21:43 ` Boyd Roberts
[not found] ` <0cb501c0f2bf$97cacea0$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-06-11 21:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
From: "Dan Cross" <cross@math.psu.edu>
> Okay, this is getting way off topic for 9fans, but, let me ask
> this: at the real abstract, pure level, is science any different
> at all from art? I contend that they're one and the same.
nonsense. physics is a science. i can predict things with it.
does computer science predict anything for me? i'll give you that
it does have an axiom that states:
you will be plagued by bugs in any development effort
but that doesn't really predict anything in anything that vaguely
approaches a _law_ of physics -- pick one. eg. the prohibition
of speeds greater than the of speed of light.
comp sci is more like an engineering discipline with very few
fundamentals.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <0cb501c0f2bf$97cacea0$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>]
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
[not found] ` <0cb501c0f2bf$97cacea0$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>
@ 2001-06-11 22:43 ` paurea
2001-06-12 14:18 ` Dan Cross
0 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: paurea @ 2001-06-11 22:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Boyd Roberts writes:
> From: "Boyd Roberts" <boyd@fr.inter.net>
> Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 23:43:45 +0200
>
> From: "Dan Cross" <cross@math.psu.edu>
> > Okay, this is getting way off topic for 9fans, but, let me ask
> > this: at the real abstract, pure level, is science any different
> > at all from art? I contend that they're one and the same.
>
> nonsense. physics is a science. i can predict things with it.
>
> does computer science predict anything for me? i'll give you that
> it does have an axiom that states:
>
> you will be plagued by bugs in any development effort
>
> but that doesn't really predict anything in anything that vaguely
> approaches a _law_ of physics -- pick one. eg. the prohibition
> of speeds greater than the of speed of light.
>
> comp sci is more like an engineering discipline with very few
> fundamentals.
¿Would you say Math is a science?.
Its theoretical foundations are based on turing machines...
(I believe all physics are written in math simbols...)
--
Saludos,
Gorka
"Curiosity sKilled the cat"
--
/"\
\ / ascii ribbon campaign - against html mail
X - against ms attachments
/ \
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-11 22:43 ` paurea
@ 2001-06-12 14:18 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-12 15:50 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-06-12 14:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
In article <15141.18819.7956.967025@nido.hilbert.space> you write:
>Would you say Math is a science?.
>Its theoretical foundations are based on turing machines...
Woah, they are? Mathematics, and many of its theoretical foundations,
existed for a really long time before Alan Turing was born....
>(I believe all physics are written in math simbols...)
Basically, but each discipline seems to invent its own psuedo-
mathematical notation. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it can
get really confusing (cf. i in mathematics vs. j in engineering).
- Dan C.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-09 18:50 ` [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science andrey mirtchovski
2001-06-09 17:56 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-06-12 0:09 ` Scott Merrilees
2001-06-12 0:16 ` Boyd Roberts
[not found] ` <0cc301c0f2c0$78949560$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>
2001-06-16 23:34 ` Matt
3 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: Scott Merrilees @ 2001-06-12 0:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>unfortunately dan cross is very right in his analysis -- most of the
>students care not for algorithmics. the three classes i listed are the most
>hated ones (together with the "Systems Programming and Introduction to
>Operating Systems", the UNIX class) simply because they actually make the
>students think...
>
>there are the occasional bad apples who explore the field, write code
>and are interested in the 'science' part of 'computer science'.. the others
>are happy to get their 3 year degrees and drone off to the job market.
>
>andrey
Then you have the occasional CS dept / Computer Centre with a computer
usage policy that probihits all use of the univerity computer systems
except for specific course work.
Sm
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-12 0:09 ` Scott Merrilees
@ 2001-06-12 0:16 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12 0:42 ` Scott Merrilees
0 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-06-12 0:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> Then you have the occasional CS dept / Computer Centre with a computer
> usage policy that probihits all use of the univerity computer systems
> except for specific course work.
yeah, but some of us got around that and the more you got around
it the more you learned -- the useful stuff.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-12 0:16 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-06-12 0:42 ` Scott Merrilees
2001-06-12 1:08 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: Scott Merrilees @ 2001-06-12 0:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>> Then you have the occasional CS dept / Computer Centre with a computer
>> usage policy that probihits all use of the univerity computer systems
>> except for specific course work.
>boyd:
>yeah, but some of us got around that and the more you got around
>it the more you learned -- the useful stuff.
Very true, but the above CS attitude encourages the production of
drones, while discouraging and even punishing those with the audacity
to try and do some self directed learning.
Sm
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-12 0:42 ` Scott Merrilees
@ 2001-06-12 1:08 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-06-12 1:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> Very true, but the above CS attitude encourages the production of
> drones, while discouraging and even punishing those with the audacity
> to try and do some self directed learning.
i don't disagree, but when you had 2000 students and one 11/780 for
all of them (even with share/hacks giving you a maximum of 128
simultaneous student logins) i guess something had to be done.
more resources would have been nice.
on the other hand, it was always a nice clause to use on password
crackers and others nuisances.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <0cc301c0f2c0$78949560$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>]
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
[not found] ` <0cc301c0f2c0$78949560$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>
@ 2001-06-12 14:12 ` Dan Cross
0 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-06-12 14:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
In article <0cc301c0f2c0$78949560$e8b7c6d4@SOMA> you write:
>nonsense. physics is a science. i can predict things with it.
I can predict things with computer science as well: the average
and worst-case running times of an algorithm, for instance, or
the amount of memory used by activation records in a recursive
algorithm.
>does computer science predict anything for me? i'll give you that
>it does have an axiom that states:
>
> you will be plagued by bugs in any development effort
This is a software engineering maxim. Speaking of which.... There
are ``laws'' of software engineering that are kind of like laws of
physics. Add more programmers to a late project, and it gets later;
etc.
>but that doesn't really predict anything in anything that vaguely
>approaches a _law_ of physics -- pick one. eg. the prohibition
>of speeds greater than the of speed of light.
The Church-Turing thesis; NP-complete problems; the halting problem,
just to name a few.
>comp sci is more like an engineering discipline with very few
>fundamentals.
Maybe, but that wasn't even my point.
- Dan C.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-09 18:50 ` [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science andrey mirtchovski
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
[not found] ` <0cc301c0f2c0$78949560$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>
@ 2001-06-16 23:34 ` Matt
2001-06-28 21:29 ` Boyd Roberts
3 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: Matt @ 2001-06-16 23:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
My friend is on his third year (of 4) of his Computer Science Degree.
I know they've covered Assembler, Java, C++ and Databases.
I mentioned to him that Dennis Ritchie posted to 9fans thinking he might be
interested.
"Who?"
I didn't bother saying
"Those who do not understand Unix are doomed to reinvent it - poorly..."
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-16 23:34 ` Matt
@ 2001-06-28 21:29 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-28 22:03 ` Matt
0 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-06-28 21:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> I know they've covered Assembler, Java, C++ and Databases.
surely s/he could have picked a 5th worthless subject...
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-28 21:29 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-06-28 22:03 ` Matt
2001-06-28 23:20 ` George Michaelson
2001-06-29 4:30 ` Lucio De Re
0 siblings, 2 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Matt @ 2001-06-28 22:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
----- Original Message -----
From: "Boyd Roberts" <boyd@fr.inter.net>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
> > I know they've covered Assembler, Java, C++ and Databases.
>
> surely s/he could have picked a 5th worthless subject...
i think that's saved up for the final year
He constantly amazes us (his friends) with his computer cluelessness.
Like finding it difficult to persuade him that his overclocked celeron might
be struggling to execute the tcp/ip stack while he was trying to play
high-end games.
Or helping him install a windows based web proxy (literally double clicking
on setup.exe)
I remember they used MS Access for their database.
We had a CS graduate come for an interview. He was clearly a bit clueless.
The questions were scaled down to make him feel a bit better when he left.
"What is a hexadecimal number?"
"A combination of numbers and letters"
He had a nice suit on though.
M
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-28 22:03 ` Matt
@ 2001-06-28 23:20 ` George Michaelson
2001-06-29 21:27 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-07-18 15:49 ` Ralph Corderoy
2001-06-29 4:30 ` Lucio De Re
1 sibling, 2 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: George Michaelson @ 2001-06-28 23:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> We had a CS graduate come for an interview. He was clearly a bit clueless.
> The questions were scaled down to make him feel a bit better when he left.
> "What is a hexadecimal number?"
> "A combination of numbers and letters"
>
You know, there are contexts where this is the right answer. Like, if you
manipulate them as input/output objects and need to check the datastream
to see if the tokenising input should end.
And, the difference between Hex 0F and Decimal 15 is that both have exactly
the same bit-pattern in memory. Strangely, if you add 2 apples in hex
and 2 oranges in decimal OR octal, you still have 4 bits of fruit. So, you
can do mixed-base sums after all. Why don't they teach you that at
school any more?
I had a chum who'd had a 6th finger cut off early. If they'd left it on, would
he have had any advantages doing finger arithmetic?
> He had a nice suit on though.
>
Should'a employed him then. Anybody slavish enough to dress up to get a job
is probably going to work hard for the first 7 months until disallusionment
sets in.
I still writhe with embarrassment recalling an interview for the UK N.E.R.C
to get a junior progroid job onboard the antarctic ships, when asked to
write a solution to pythagoras in pascal, there, in front of the panel. Flop
sweat and memory loss and nicotine withdrawal and sheer fright combined to
make it both humiliating for me, and revealing for them. I think they made
the right decision to quietly let me go. Still, I got to see the steam loco
graveyard at barry island so it wasn't all wasted.
cheers
-George
PS I suspect that in this niche, people aren't working as a result of a
successful interview. I think they probably know people who know people
who trust people who let them on board. If there is an interview, its
more like dogs sniffing each other, or 'do you wanna be in my gang?' than
joining the army.
--
George Michaelson | APNIC
Email: ggm@apnic.net | PO Box 2131 Milton QLD 4064
Phone: +61 7 3367 0490 | Australia
Fax: +61 7 3367 0482 | http://www.apnic.net
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-28 22:03 ` Matt
2001-06-28 23:20 ` George Michaelson
@ 2001-06-29 4:30 ` Lucio De Re
1 sibling, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Lucio De Re @ 2001-06-29 4:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 11:03:57PM +0100, Matt wrote:
>
> He had a nice suit on though.
>
You don't get, it then :-) It's the shoes, what shoes was he
wearing? Were they well polished?
++L
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <vikki@proweb.co.uk>]
* Re: [9fans] string to list?
@ 2001-06-10 17:32 ` vikki
2001-06-10 17:47 ` Boyd Roberts
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: vikki @ 2001-06-10 17:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>rc irc client? sounds reasonable :)
>i wish i could find my 80-line C irc client i wrote last year for p9 (it
was
>my first project :).. come to think of it though, rc is a much better idea
>and a funnier one to implement :) wish i had a working p9 installation, i
>could've helped!
We're having a bit of a competition at work. They've got their monolithic
perl bot running. I'm trying to impress them with the plan9 version as a
learning exercise. I plan to have it do eval `{$msg} and do whatever it's
namespace will let it. They keep adding code to the perl bot and getting
deeper and deeper. Already they've had to split it in half (on my suggestion
:-) to separate information gathering and display.
>how about awk? daemonize an awk program if RC does not five you the
>utility to do it :)
yeah that's a good idea. I didn't fancy spawning awk for every line of irc.
I did wonder one day why plan9 has any command line utilities at all apart
from bind, mount, import, unmount , cd, echo and cat.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <matt@proweb.co.uk>]
* [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out
@ 2001-06-12 0:39 ` Matt
2001-06-12 0:55 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-06-12 1:00 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 2 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Matt @ 2001-06-12 0:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Well it's not going too well.
I got this far but of course (I can say that now)
the `{..} doesn't return until $netdir/data sends an eof
and then prints each line
ifs='
'
for (k in `{ cat $netdir/data }) {
echo $k
}
so how do i read a line at a time before `{..} closes it's stdout?
once I've cracked that it's just about finished
M
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out
2001-06-12 0:39 ` [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out Matt
@ 2001-06-12 0:55 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-06-12 1:12 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12 1:00 ` Boyd Roberts
1 sibling, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: Scott Schwartz @ 2001-06-12 0:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
| I got this far but of course (I can say that now)
| the `{..} doesn't return until $netdir/data sends an eof
| and then prints each line
Instead of "for cat", don't you want "while read"?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out
2001-06-12 0:39 ` [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out Matt
2001-06-12 0:55 ` Scott Schwartz
@ 2001-06-12 1:00 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12 1:30 ` Jonathan Sergent
2001-06-15 8:27 ` Hermann Samso
1 sibling, 2 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-06-12 1:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> I got this far but of course (I can say that now)
> the `{..} doesn't return until $netdir/data sends an eof
> and then prints each line
well, obviously. it's a file isn't it? <smirk>
> so how do i read a line at a time before `{..} closes it's stdout?
write some C program that that reads _unbuffered_ characters
and spits them until it sees 'end of line' (whatever that may be).
you should buffer the output, but _not_ the input.
can't be more than 20 lines of code.
btw: i hope you're dealing with 8 bit chars 'cos latin-1 will
really screw up utf encoded streams that the rest of the
system expects. years ago i wrote (on ultrix) riso [rune
to iso-latin-1] and isor (pronounced eye-sore) filters
so that the unix sam could deal with the few french docs
i had to deal with.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out
2001-06-12 1:00 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-06-12 1:30 ` Jonathan Sergent
2001-06-15 8:27 ` Hermann Samso
1 sibling, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Jonathan Sergent @ 2001-06-12 1:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On Monday, June 11, 2001, at 06:00 PM, Boyd Roberts wrote:
> write some C program that that reads _unbuffered_ characters
> and spits them until it sees 'end of line' (whatever that may be).
> you should buffer the output, but _not_ the input.
You could just read the manual and use /bin/read, instead of rewriting
it.
So you get
{
while () {
line=`{read}
echo line: $line
}
} < filename
Somehow putting the < filename after the inner } makes rc reopen it for
each loop iteration. (Am I misinterpreting this?)
A more convoluted way to do to the same thing would be
{ echo 0 > /srv/something.$pid } < filename
while () {
line=`{read /srv/something.$pid}
echo line: $line
}
rm /srv/something.$pid
but that's probably better for showing off /srv to your friends than it
is for actually solving the problem.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out
2001-06-12 1:00 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12 1:30 ` Jonathan Sergent
@ 2001-06-15 8:27 ` Hermann Samso
2001-06-15 11:53 ` Boyd Roberts
1 sibling, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: Hermann Samso @ 2001-06-15 8:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Boyd Roberts <boyd@fr.inter.net> wrote:
>> I got this far but of course (I can say that now)
>> the `{..} doesn't return until $netdir/data sends an eof
>> and then prints each line
> well, obviously. it's a file isn't it? <smirk>
>> so how do i read a line at a time before `{..} closes it's stdout?
> write some C program that that reads _unbuffered_ characters
> and spits them until it sees 'end of line' (whatever that may be).
> you should buffer the output, but _not_ the input.
> can't be more than 20 lines of code.
> btw: i hope you're dealing with 8 bit chars 'cos latin-1 will
> really screw up utf encoded streams that the rest of the
> system expects. years ago i wrote (on ultrix) riso [rune
> to iso-latin-1] and isor (pronounced eye-sore) filters
> so that the unix sam could deal with the few french docs
> i had to deal with.
With so many snippets of code, everyone could make use
of, isn't there any common repository? Or will they
allget integrated in time for next release?
Ok, there is always Deja News, but...
saludos,
hermann samso
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out
2001-06-15 8:27 ` Hermann Samso
@ 2001-06-15 11:53 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-15 12:18 ` Matt
2001-06-15 14:01 ` Matt
0 siblings, 2 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-06-15 11:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
From: "Hermann Samso" <samso@studserv.stud.uni-hannover.de>
> With so many snippets of code, everyone could make use
> of, isn't there any common repository? Or will they
> allget integrated in time for next release?
> Ok, there is always Deja News, but...
oh, but there is. you must have missed the 'why don't
we build a common repository' thread. i finally cracked
(in desperation) and did this:
http://mapage.noos.fr/~repo
but about the only thing it's done is to a) proove a
point and b) receive mail of the form 'nice page.
the first cut was done by hand, the second is automated
with a mash-mk mashfile on inferno.
the bitsy code should probably go back to 1127.
i don't mind adding it too.
matt's rc irc bot could be added if he so wishes.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out
2001-06-15 11:53 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-06-15 12:18 ` Matt
2001-06-15 14:01 ` Matt
1 sibling, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Matt @ 2001-06-15 12:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
----- Original Message -----
From: "Boyd Roberts" <boyd@fr.inter.net>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out
> From: "Hermann Samso" <samso@studserv.stud.uni-hannover.de>
> > With so many snippets of code, everyone could make use
> > of, isn't there any common repository? Or will they
> > allget integrated in time for next release?
> > Ok, there is always Deja News, but...
>
> oh, but there is. you must have missed the 'why don't
> we build a common repository' thread. i finally cracked
> (in desperation) and did this:
>
> http://mapage.noos.fr/~repo
>
> but about the only thing it's done is to a) proove a
> point and b) receive mail of the form 'nice page.
>
> the first cut was done by hand, the second is automated
> with a mash-mk mashfile on inferno.
>
> the bitsy code should probably go back to 1127.
> i don't mind adding it too.
>
> matt's rc irc bot could be added if he so wishes.
>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out
2001-06-15 11:53 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-15 12:18 ` Matt
@ 2001-06-15 14:01 ` Matt
2001-06-15 14:25 ` Boyd Roberts
1 sibling, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: Matt @ 2001-06-15 14:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
bugger, sorry
>but about the only thing it's done is to a) proove a
>point and b) receive mail of the form 'nice page.
no news is good news?
>matt's rc irc bot could be added if he so wishes
A basic irc bot that evals commands it's given with
the permission & namespace of whoever started it.
http://www.proweb.co.uk/~matt/chugly.rc
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out
2001-06-15 14:01 ` Matt
@ 2001-06-15 14:25 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-06-15 14:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> no news is good news?
well, it's better than being the middle of a firefight...
err, flamewar.
> A basic irc bot that evals commands it's given with
> the permission & namespace of whoever started it.
> http://www.proweb.co.uk/~matt/chugly.rc
ok, will do.
i got it down to this as a mashfile:
for (i in contrib/*)
contrib.html : $i/li.html;
*/*/li.html :~ $1/$2/url { mash tools/c2li $1/$2 > $0 };
*/*/url :~ $1/$2/desc {};
*/*/desc :~ $1/$2/from {};
*/*/from :~ $1/$2/date {};
*.html :~ $1/0/url { cat $1/*/li.html > $0 };
default: index.html {};
index.html : head.html contrib.html tail.html { cat head.html contrib.html tail.html > index.html };
----
the contrib directory has directories, named 0...n, which have these files:
url
desc [description]
from
date [rfc822/std11 date. it's well known and can be parsed]
li.html [this is the html <li> made out of the above files]
brucee gave me a bit of a hand, 'cos mash-mk is not mk or make.
i think he has a much better and simpler solution to the problem.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* [9fans] bitsy question
@ 2001-06-26 16:33 John Packer
2001-06-26 17:10 ` [9fans] " Dan Cross
0 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: John Packer @ 2001-06-26 16:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
I have Plan9 installed on my ipaq, but I don't have a pcmcia sleeve,
or wavelan on my network.
So I have been trying to link the bitsy to my terminal using ppp over
the
serial port. (I made a ramdisk with ip/ppp).
PPP tries to authenticate for 30 seconds (through chap, I think) then
times out.
I've tried running ppp a few different ways, but something like
ip/ppp -df -b 115200 -p /dev/eia0 -s $user:$secret 135.104.99.5
on the bitsy and something like
ip/ppp -dfS -b 115200 -p /dev/eia0 135.104.99.1
on the server.
Has anyone tried this? What am I doing wrong?
Thanks,
John
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* [9fans] Re: bitsy question
2001-06-26 16:33 [9fans] bitsy question John Packer
@ 2001-06-26 17:10 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-26 19:51 ` John Packer
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-06-26 17:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: packer; +Cc: 9fans
In article <3B38BA06.E55B62AC@bway.net> you write:
>I have Plan9 installed on my ipaq, but I don't have a pcmcia sleeve,
>or wavelan on my network.
Ouch; that makes it much more difficult to use, as you have discovered.
>So I have been trying to link the bitsy to my terminal using ppp over
>the serial port. (I made a ramdisk with ip/ppp).
>
>PPP tries to authenticate for 30 seconds (through chap, I think) then
>times out.
>
>I've tried running ppp a few different ways, but something like
>
> ip/ppp -df -b 115200 -p /dev/eia0 -s $user:$secret 135.104.99.5
>
>on the bitsy and something like
>
> ip/ppp -dfS -b 115200 -p /dev/eia0 135.104.99.1
>
>on the server.
>
>Has anyone tried this? What am I doing wrong?
Well, at least one thing that you're probably encountering is that the
bitsy tries to use the serial port as a console device, and is
hardwired in the kernel to do so. In order to fix that, you have to
edit the kernel sources in /sys/src/9/bitsy/ and recompile; I managed
to turn it off by changing the argument to sa1110_uartsetup() to zero
in main.c. However, if you do ONLY that, the machine panics when it
comes up because the keyboard input queue for the console device is
nil. Whoops! You have to change sa1110_uartsetup() in sa1110uart.c
(the last routine in the file) to assign a valid Queue pointer to
kbdq. I just changed the relevant section to be:
if(console) {
uartspecial(p, 115200, &kbdq, &printq, kbdcr2nl);
} else {
kbdq = qopen(4*1024, 0, 0, 0);
}
That is, adding the ``else'' clause which calls qopen. I'm not sure
that this is the best method; if there's a better one, I'd be
interested to know.
btw- the serial console mode can be really handy at times; it's nice to
be able to put the bitsy on it's cradle, start up con, and then type
into bitsy windows without using bitsy/keyboard. The hand becomes much
less cramped.
Anyway, I'm assuming this is something you haven't messed with yet;
it'd most definately mess with ip/ppp, since every other character gets
redirected to /dev/cons!
Another problem you may have is that the bitsy uart driver doesn't
really do modem control; actually, it might be more accurate to say
that the StrongARM SA1100 doesn't do modem control signaling directly.
Instead, it simulates it using the GPIO pins on the 1100. I'm not sure
what exactly, if anything, the bitsy does differently in this regard
(the driver has a comment about the RTS/CTS stuff being h3600 specific,
but nothing more); my attempts to add DTR and RTS/CTS modem control to
the serial driver didn't work the way I had expected them to (I was
trying to hack them in in order to get my Targus stowaway keyboard
working; I did get it to mostly ``do the right thing,'' but it wasn't
perfect and I got busy with other stuff. I'll get back to it
eventually.)
I've been meaning to try out ppp on the bitsy, using my ricochet modem,
but I haven't round a serial cable for it yet (well, I haven't exactly
been looking that hard). I definately thing it'd be pretty cool to use
my bitsy to send email from the train.
bway.net, huh? You in New York? Anyone else on the list in NYC? We
ought to start a New York Plan 9 Club or something.
- Dan C.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* [9fans] Re: bitsy question
2001-06-26 17:10 ` [9fans] " Dan Cross
@ 2001-06-26 19:51 ` John Packer
2001-06-26 20:34 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-27 1:15 ` [9fans] Two cpu servers? Ish Rattan
2001-06-26 20:09 ` [9fans] Re: bitsy question John Packer
2001-06-26 20:18 ` Latchesar Ionkov
2 siblings, 2 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: John Packer @ 2001-06-26 19:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dan Cross, 9fans
Dan Cross wrote:
> You have to change sa1110_uartsetup() in sa1110uart.c
> (the last routine in the file) to assign a valid Queue pointer to
> kbdq. I just changed the relevant section to be:
>
> if(console) {
> uartspecial(p, 115200, &kbdq, &printq, kbdcr2nl);
> } else {
> kbdq = qopen(4*1024, 0, 0, 0);
> }
>
This is an interesting clue. I'll try this out tonight.
> btw- the serial console mode can be really handy at times; it's nice to
> be able to put the bitsy on it's cradle, start up con, and then type
> into bitsy windows without using bitsy/keyboard.
I've noticed this - very useful.
> Another problem you may have is that the bitsy uart driver doesn't
> really do modem control
I don't think I need modem control, I'm not using a modem: just a
PPP server and client over the serial cable to my PC.
This is, I'm guessing, how ActiveSync works, and how Linux users connect
to their Ipaqs.
It just doesn't seem to authenticate.
This may be the wrong approach, I don't know.
> I've been meaning to try out ppp on the bitsy, using my ricochet modem,
> but I haven't round a serial cable for it yet (well, I haven't exactly
> been looking that hard). I definately thing it'd be pretty cool to use
> my bitsy to send email from the train.
Very.
>
> bway.net, huh? You in New York? Anyone else on the list in NYC? We
> ought to start a New York Plan 9 Club or something.
Yep.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: bitsy question
2001-06-26 19:51 ` John Packer
@ 2001-06-26 20:34 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-29 22:32 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-27 1:15 ` [9fans] Two cpu servers? Ish Rattan
1 sibling, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-06-26 20:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans; +Cc: packer
In article <3B38E7BE.D4C22541@bway.net> you write:
>
> [...]
>
>> Another problem you may have is that the bitsy uart driver doesn't
>> really do modem control
>
>I don't think I need modem control, I'm not using a modem: just a
>PPP server and client over the serial cable to my PC.
Oh duh; of course you said that earlier and I was too slow to catch
on. Yes, you're right; if you're not using a modem, you don't need
modem control. For that matter, you might not need modem control
even if you have a modem.
>This is, I'm guessing, how ActiveSync works, and how Linux users connect
>to their Ipaqs.
Well, I think they mostly use ``normal'' serial line protocols; either
just raw text passed over the serial line, or using a data transfer
protocol like xmodem. I'm not sure they'd bother with the overhead of
PPP in the general case (where they just wanted to sync data, or copy
a file; for making TCP connections and the like, yeah, you'd need PPP
or SLIP or a real network interface).
>It just doesn't seem to authenticate.
That's almost certainly the keyboard input queue messing you up.
>This may be the wrong approach, I don't know.
Well, if you've got an extra thousand bucks just laying around, definately
invest in the Wavelan route. If not, then it's a reasonable approach; it
won't zoom, though, and I've found ip/ppp pretty unreliable (using a wireless
modem, though; still, it seems to work reasonably well under FreeBSD. I
haven't been motivated enough to track down what's wrong, though).
> [...]
>
>> bway.net, huh? You in New York? Anyone else on the list in NYC? We
>> ought to start a New York Plan 9 Club or something.
>
>Yep.
Cool. Any other New Yorker's?
- Dan C.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* [9fans] Two cpu servers?
2001-06-26 19:51 ` John Packer
2001-06-26 20:34 ` Dan Cross
@ 2001-06-27 1:15 ` Ish Rattan
1 sibling, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Ish Rattan @ 2001-06-27 1:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Does it make sense to have two cpu-servers?
I have a standalone spu/auth server running. How can I add another cpu
server to have two of these?
Any pointers will be appreciated.
-ishwar
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* [9fans] Re: bitsy question
2001-06-26 17:10 ` [9fans] " Dan Cross
2001-06-26 19:51 ` John Packer
@ 2001-06-26 20:09 ` John Packer
2001-06-26 20:36 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-26 20:18 ` Latchesar Ionkov
2 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: John Packer @ 2001-06-26 20:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> Do you also use that serial line as the console? You'll get garbage
> in your packets that way.
>
> Sape
Hmm. I'm not running a con window when I try this.
The debugging output appears to indicate a lack of response to a CHAP
request.
Maybe it is not picking up the '-s $user:$secret' option from the client.
John
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: bitsy question
2001-06-26 17:10 ` [9fans] " Dan Cross
2001-06-26 19:51 ` John Packer
2001-06-26 20:09 ` [9fans] Re: bitsy question John Packer
@ 2001-06-26 20:18 ` Latchesar Ionkov
2001-06-26 20:28 ` Matt
2 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: Latchesar Ionkov @ 2001-06-26 20:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 01:10:45PM -0400, Dan Cross said:
>
> bway.net, huh? You in New York? Anyone else on the list in NYC? We
> ought to start a New York Plan 9 Club or something.
I am in New York too.
Lucho
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] architectures
@ 2001-07-12 8:42 forsyth
2001-07-12 13:56 ` Laura Creighton
2001-07-12 16:13 ` Ozan Yigit
0 siblings, 2 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: forsyth @ 2001-07-12 8:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>>i'm particularly fond of the acme interface, and i really
>>like the chording (okay, maybe it's not for everyone, but _i_
>>really like it). i'm asking about non-techie folks. for them,
>>wouldn't a single-button interface be simpler to understand?
not necessarily, since the functionality of the extra buttons
must be provided somehow, whether by menus, pop-up menus,
key-mouse combinations, keys alone, or some other way. much might
depend on the choice of conventions for using more than one button.
that in acme all three buttons select text is a big simplification.
i usually introduce it as follows: ``button 1 selects text, button 2
selects text, and button 3 ...'' and during the following pause
nearly everyone says ``selects text?''. i then explain
that `of course' each button does different things with
the text selected. that seems fine. the chording for cut/paste/copy
takes a little practice, but since it has a `feel' much like grabbing
text from the screen, that also seems fine. outside acme,
the Blit convention (perhaps adopted from Smalltalk, i don't know)
was something like: button 1 generally selected things, button 2 provided local
operations (usually on the thing selected), and button 3 provided global operations
for the application, with a few exceptions such as paint programs.
most menus were kept fairly small.
i know at least one non- technical user of acme who sends and receives
mail, plumbing photos and other things, and editing quite happily.
other non-technical people i've shown it to wanted to use acme on
their machines for document preparation and email because the
organisation into columns and frames and the use of the buttons was
just so much more effective than their `desktop' or a clutter of
windows. (they also like the soft use of colour.)
contrary to Tog's advice on this point: with care i suspect
you can make abstractions simple and effective enough without insisting on
drawing a tenuous likeness to something in the `real world'.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] architectures
2001-07-12 8:42 [9fans] architectures forsyth
@ 2001-07-12 13:56 ` Laura Creighton
2001-07-12 16:13 ` Ozan Yigit
1 sibling, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Laura Creighton @ 2001-07-12 13:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans; +Cc: lac
re: drawing tenuous likenesses to the real world.
It is possible in the days before everybody knew what a computer was,
and a computer program was, that there was some value in giving a user
a metaphor with something else on the real world. These days it is a
major problem because quite frequently the metaphor is lousier than
what we could write if we focused on _how efficiently can we do what
we want to do_ rather than _what is something, anything, that somebody
is likely to have done before which is sort of like what we want to do_.
My favourite example is the desktop metaphor. Now neat people can
have the experience of a messed up and cluttered desk. You too can
lose important work and documents because you can't find them!
Laura
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] architectures
2001-07-12 8:42 [9fans] architectures forsyth
2001-07-12 13:56 ` Laura Creighton
@ 2001-07-12 16:13 ` Ozan Yigit
2001-07-12 16:33 ` Matt
1 sibling, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: Ozan Yigit @ 2001-07-12 16:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk writes:
> contrary to Tog's advice on this point: with care i suspect
> you can make abstractions simple and effective enough without insisting on
> drawing a tenuous likeness to something in the `real world'.
An interesting related bit of work is "The Anti-Mac Interface" by Don
Gentner and Jakob Nielson, Communications of the ACM, 29(8), pp. 70-82
August 1996, but also found online. i wish we could have more of this kind
of de/re-construction; attempting to break all the interface design rules
and see what comes out. the results of this particular attempt are more
along the lines of raisin-bran cereal than waldorf salad but thought
provoking nevertheless.
oz
--
www.cs.yorku.ca/~oz | if you couldn't find any weirdness, maybe
york u. computer science | we'll just have to make some! -- hobbes
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] architectures
2001-07-12 16:13 ` Ozan Yigit
@ 2001-07-12 16:33 ` Matt
2001-07-12 18:12 ` Scott Schwartz
0 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: Matt @ 2001-07-12 16:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> An interesting related bit of work is "The Anti-Mac Interface" by Don
> Gentner and Jakob Nielson, Communications of the ACM, 29(8), pp. 70-82
> August 1996, but also found online.
http://www.acm.org/cacm/AUG96/antimac.htm
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] architectures
2001-07-12 16:33 ` Matt
@ 2001-07-12 18:12 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-07-12 18:16 ` Martin Harriss
2001-07-12 18:43 ` Dan Cross
0 siblings, 2 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Scott Schwartz @ 2001-07-12 18:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> http://www.acm.org/cacm/AUG96/antimac.htm
``...in designing Sun's home page we decided we needed to change it drastically
every month to keep the users' interest...''
No wonder it's so totally impossible to find anything in there! That one
statement makes me doubt every other thing they said. Sun's web site
has to be the worst I've ever used, especially taking into account
the obviously huge amount of effort that goes into it. It's clearly
all about entertaining suits, and not at all about making information
available to users who don't want to waste their time.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] architectures
2001-07-12 18:12 ` Scott Schwartz
@ 2001-07-12 18:16 ` Martin Harriss
2001-07-12 18:43 ` Dan Cross
1 sibling, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Martin Harriss @ 2001-07-12 18:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Scott Schwartz wrote:
>
> > http://www.acm.org/cacm/AUG96/antimac.htm
>
> ``...in designing Sun's home page we decided we needed to change it drastically
> every month to keep the users' interest...''
>
> No wonder it's so totally impossible to find anything in there! That one
> statement makes me doubt every other thing they said. Sun's web site
> has to be the worst I've ever used, especially taking into account
> the obviously huge amount of effort that goes into it. It's clearly
> all about entertaining suits, and not at all about making information
> available to users who don't want to waste their time.
It's also one of the slowest web sites around. I hate to think of the
amount of time that I've had to wait wating for their pages to load.
They used to *boast* that their web services were provided by a pair of
Ultra 1's. Looks like they still are.
</gripe>
Martin
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] architectures
2001-07-12 18:12 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-07-12 18:16 ` Martin Harriss
@ 2001-07-12 18:43 ` Dan Cross
2001-07-13 14:52 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
1 sibling, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-07-12 18:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
In article <20010712181225.17835.qmail@g.bio.cse.psu.edu> you write:
>``...in designing Sun's home page we decided we needed to change it drastically
>every month to keep the users' interest...''
Hmm, I predict that Sun will be the DEC of the 2000's; they'll stick
to an obsolete and overburdened product line until it's too late, and
then get bought out by Dell and ultimately squashed under foot.
- Dan ``I saw a Solarian Light'' C.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9
@ 2001-10-25 17:55 Russ Cox
2001-10-25 18:29 ` William Josephson
0 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: Russ Cox @ 2001-10-25 17:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Could you please recommend me a reading on both architectures to
understand differences between them. I read here that BSD paging has
some drawbacks to AT&T one (used in Plan9). And I want to make this
clear for myself.
The discussions here were talking about many-years-old
systems. I don't think anyone even mentioned Plan 9's VM system,
which is just about the simplest thing you could imagine.
The BSDs have oodles more ``features.'' I'd look in
www.researchindex.com for the latest stuff, and in McKusick et al.
(Design and Implementation of the 4.4BSD OS) for older stuff.
You can decide for yourself whether Plan 9 needs any of it.
Russ
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9
2001-10-25 17:55 [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9 Russ Cox
@ 2001-10-25 18:29 ` William Josephson
2001-10-26 8:09 ` [9fans] acme bug/annoyance? Matt
2001-10-29 10:16 ` [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9 John S. Dyson
0 siblings, 2 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: William Josephson @ 2001-10-25 18:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 01:55:25PM -0400, Russ Cox wrote:
> The discussions here were talking about many-years-old
> systems. I don't think anyone even mentioned Plan 9's VM system,
> which is just about the simplest thing you could imagine.
> The BSDs have oodles more ``features.'' I'd look in
> www.researchindex.com for the latest stuff, and in McKusick et al.
> (Design and Implementation of the 4.4BSD OS) for older stuff.
> You can decide for yourself whether Plan 9 needs any of it.
You probably want to take a look at Charles Cranor's PHd thesis from
Washington on UVM. If I recall correctly, some of the *BSDs (NetBSD,
FreeBSD?) have picked it up or at least borrowed ideas.
-WJ
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* [9fans] acme bug/annoyance?
2001-10-25 18:29 ` William Josephson
@ 2001-10-26 8:09 ` Matt
2001-10-26 11:36 ` rob pike
2001-10-29 10:16 ` [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9 John S. Dyson
1 sibling, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: Matt @ 2001-10-26 8:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Hi,
I just started a new instance of Acme
typed some code in an empty yellow window which was a directory
listing of an empty directory, I'd put the filename in the titlebar
but not saved the file.
All was going well until I resized the column and lost all my typing.
Not the end of the world but not very user friendly either.
An instance of where DWIM would win over "you have to have the text in
a file already, stupid"
Matt
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] acme bug/annoyance?
2001-10-26 8:09 ` [9fans] acme bug/annoyance? Matt
@ 2001-10-26 11:36 ` rob pike
2001-10-26 14:43 ` Scott Schwartz
0 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: rob pike @ 2001-10-26 11:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
A nasty problem here. When you resize a directory window, acme should recolumnate
the output, but I couldn't see how to get that right while keeping the user's text, so I
just started over. A directory window is therefore a kind of scratch typing space, which
is actually a feature I like but is clearly a consequence of, rather than integral to, the design.
I suppose the documentation should mention this.
-rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Matt <matt@proweb.co.uk>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 4:09 AM
Subject: [9fans] acme bug/annoyance?
> Hi,
>
> I just started a new instance of Acme
>
> typed some code in an empty yellow window which was a directory
> listing of an empty directory, I'd put the filename in the titlebar
> but not saved the file.
>
> All was going well until I resized the column and lost all my typing.
>
> Not the end of the world but not very user friendly either.
>
> An instance of where DWIM would win over "you have to have the text in
> a file already, stupid"
>
> Matt
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9
2001-10-25 18:29 ` William Josephson
2001-10-26 8:09 ` [9fans] acme bug/annoyance? Matt
@ 2001-10-29 10:16 ` John S. Dyson
1 sibling, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: John S. Dyson @ 2001-10-29 10:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
wkj-despam@eecs.harvard.edu (William Josephson) wrote in message news:<20011025142927.B8085@honk.eecs.harvard.edu>...
> On Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 01:55:25PM -0400, Russ Cox wrote:
> > The discussions here were talking about many-years-old
> > systems. I don't think anyone even mentioned Plan 9's VM system,
> > which is just about the simplest thing you could imagine.
> > The BSDs have oodles more ``features.'' I'd look in
> > www.researchindex.com for the latest stuff, and in McKusick et al.
> > (Design and Implementation of the 4.4BSD OS) for older stuff.
> > You can decide for yourself whether Plan 9 needs any of it.
>
> You probably want to take a look at Charles Cranor's PHd thesis from
> Washington on UVM. If I recall correctly, some of the *BSDs (NetBSD,
> FreeBSD?) have picked it up or at least borrowed ideas.
>
FreeBSD and NetBSD have different VM systems. FreeBSD's (which I
am the primary implementer), is really a corrected and filled out
MACH VM for UNIX. It provides lots of the necessary shortcuts
fully virtualized for the process VM forking and things like that.
The original MACH VM port really wasn't meant as being production
ready (per my discussions with Hibler), but was more of a feasibility
exercise. Even though it wasn't fully made robust in the original
implementations, it wasn't that much worse than many commercial UNIX
VM behaviors.
Probably the biggest difference doesn't occur during 'normal'
memory resident situations, but where FreeBSD has rather advanced
paging stats, and really does put off the thrashfest until the
system doesn't have enough pages to supply an adequate resident
working set. If there is minimally enough memory, FreeBSD will
converge reasonably quickly, without undue thrashing. In my early
experiments, it was very satisfying to hear the system 'calm down'
after experiencing thrashing due to a necessary change in working
set population. Most other systems tended to keep on thrashing
for long periods, even when there was obviously enough memory. The
pseudo-random pagouts and invalidations from non-FreeBSD systems
tended to really screw up the page reference information on memory
segments being used by otherwise runnable processes. The relatively
good behavior has been especially useful when running user-mode
windowing systems, where the blocking from poorly chosen page
invalidations can really stop-up the works.
Both FreeBSD's VM and NetBSD's VM work pretty well (no real complaints
from either party), and most/all of the limitations of the original
MACH VM have been expunged. There were even cases of limitations
that I thought to be unsolvable in the FreeBSD code eventually simply
be an 'exercise in data structures', and the last REAL limitation
due to address space/fork inheritance was remedied as a result of
competition from NetBSD's new VM stuff.
FreeBSDs and NetBSDs code is both adequately portable, and that
should not be a deciding issue. Frankly, the most important deciding
issue is probably based upon knowledge of the VM code that the
individual who might do the port to Plan 9. One might make a
'decision' that the VM shouldn't page anyway (except in odd situations),
and so the relative advantages of the two systems becomes less
important.
My philosophy is based upon the fact that an OS MUST NOT just be a fair
weather friend, and from my rather VM-centered viewpoint, I believe that
this includes the fact that VM shouldn't randomly thrash, when it could
more actively converge to a reasonable working set (when possible.)
If starting from scratch, it is really easy to write some code that
works. However, there is ALOT more work to making a VM system
function under load to maximize availability of CPU cycles. Unfortunately,
it is clear that VM system behavior is almost always a secondary
priority, because it doesn't specify/benchmark very easily.
John
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help
@ 2002-01-20 20:02 Roshan James
2002-01-20 21:01 ` Matt H
` (3 more replies)
0 siblings, 4 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Roshan James @ 2002-01-20 20:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3665 bytes --]
Getting started in Plan9
-------------------------
Its been a little over a week since i got my Plan9 working and
I still seem to be in tourist mode.Lots of questions and
a few suggestions:
(I promise I have tried to answer these for myself before
before I am ask them)
It would be great if we have a school boy style step-by-step
getting-off-the-ground tour of plan9, maybe somewhere in the
wiki. I would be glad to do this, if i knew enough.
Graphics
-----------
- I am working with an S3 Trio 64v2 card, the install floppy
gave me 800*600 res,but after installation i am on 640*480 and
i cant seem to be able to change it
aux/vga -l 800x600x8
gives me
'Warning (BUG) : redefinition of aperture does not change
s3screen segment.'
in a black background in the sentre of the screen and an error
message that reads
'aux/vga: vgactlw: <size 800x600x8 m8>: vga already configured'
in the console window. it is a low end card but I believe that
I did have a higher res through the boot disk so it should be
possible here too. how can i change to a higher res ?
- If plan9 is booted through xosl in 640*480 res,plan9 graphics
display ends up corrupt. the bootloader does switch to text mode
before the OS is booted. anyother resolution or a text mode boot
loader does not seem to have a problem.
The right quarter of the screen (approx) seems to be a duplicate
of the band of the screen display between in the left part. (bad
description i know). Anyway to fix this ?
Acessibility
-------------
- How can I read a couple of html docs in Plan9 ?
- Is there a place where the uses of directories the std file system
heirarchy is discussed, esp /n ?
- /n/c: exists, how can i access the extended partitions ?
- How can i access the floppy a: ? /n/a: exists but shows no files.
- How can i access the extended windows partitions ?
- Problem with accessing C: File operations to /n/c: causes a problem
'%mkdir /n/c:/testdir'
'mkdir: cant create /n/c:/testdir: write to hungup channel'
also a black background error message comes (is there a generic name
for these messages ?)
'dossrv 45: suicide: sys: trap fault read addr=0xb pc=0x00004757'
help ?
Shell
------
- How can I find/search for a file in Plan9 ? the usual find /|grep xxx
does not exist here, what is the equivalent ?
- Why doesnt/Can rc have autocomplete and filename completion as in
bash ? This has become so neccessary.
Keys
-----
- Why cant the left/right arrow keys+home+end keys move the cursor,
it is really difficult to edit something by placing the cursor there
with the mouse.
- Unless is it part of a grander plan (no pun intended), can we move
the process interrupt key from Del to something else and have the
conventional functionality of del back ?
General
-------
- Is the option of plan9 default boot in bootsetup (during install)
safe for other OSes that exist on the system ?
- Why arent there more applications and more developers interested
in developing for plan9 ?
Russ, I think it would kill you to keep answering all the newbie
questions. Russ, Imel, Thanks for all the help you have been. I
think the Plan9 faq needs updation with some of the more generic
questions here. This is a lesson that could learned from the Win32's,
if you want the OS to grow, you have to get people comfortable with
it very fast. I think we can make that happen.
Rosh.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
(Lord of the Rings)
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4834 bytes --]
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help
2002-01-20 20:02 [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help Roshan James
@ 2002-01-20 21:01 ` Matt H
2002-01-20 22:02 ` Scott Schwartz
2002-01-21 10:22 ` Boyd Roberts
2002-01-20 21:03 ` William S.
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 2 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: Matt H @ 2002-01-20 21:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Hi,
here's my set of slightly flippant answers
> - How can I read a couple of html docs in Plan9 ?
install inferno and use the netscape 3 hybrid Charon
I bet you can't wait :)
Web browsing it's plan9's end user pitfall.
No browser, not even text only (unless you count downloading & stripping the html tags text only)
> - How can I find/search for a file in Plan9 ? the usual find /|grep xxx
> does not exist here, what is the equivalent ?
du I think is your best bet
it's better still to learn where everything is :)
luckily there aren't 5 different directories where programs hide (well there can be but...)
all the executables show themselves in /bin which is a union of the directories where executables live if you see what I mean. There's aren't that many, have a look through them all, you'll remember easily enough.
> - Why doesnt/Can rc have autocomplete and filename completion as in
> bash ? This has become so neccessary.
yes, well, you see plan9 is more mouse driven. eventually you'll probably end up with Acme as much your "shell" as anything, and you'll find auto complete is unneccessary.
But you're right, it is a nice feature of the bash shell but then there are soooo many goddam directories on a Linux/FreeBSD box and auto complete is Bash's way of trying to alleviate the pain. If you miss it too much I'm sure you could just write a shell script to monitor /dev/cons for tabs, and echo the stuff into /dev/cons.
Personally, I do prefer having the screen as free form is plan9's is. The shell is more than the commands you can type, it's where you can type them.
> - Why cant the left/right arrow keys+home+end keys move the cursor,
> it is really difficult to edit something by placing the cursor there
> with the mouse.
That's what I said and I still get the urge to say it out loud. They told me I'd get used to it and you know what, I haven't. I'd even settle for Ctrl-J. But when I'm sat at a different terminal I still end up saying "I wish I was using Acme".
> - Unless is it part of a grander plan (no pun intended), can we move
> the process interrupt key from Del to something else and have the
> conventional functionality of del back ?
It depends who's conventions.
> - Why arent there more applications and more developers interested
> in developing for plan9 ?
file name completion
> This is a lesson that could learned from the Win32's,
> if you want the OS to grow, you have to get people comfortable with
> it very fast. I think we can make that.
After ten years of Windows I'm not sure people are comfortable with it.
It's clunky, crashes without explanation, brittle to end user fiddling, repeatedly exposes remote root exploits, is expensive, closed source. I need not go on.
> One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
> One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
> (Lord of the Rings)
Arntcha sick of those mobiles phones yet?
Matt
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help
2002-01-20 21:01 ` Matt H
@ 2002-01-20 22:02 ` Scott Schwartz
2002-01-22 9:54 ` ozan s yigit
2002-01-21 10:22 ` Boyd Roberts
1 sibling, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: Scott Schwartz @ 2002-01-20 22:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
| yes, well, you see plan9 is more mouse driven. eventually you'll
| probably end up with Acme as much your "shell" as anything, and you'll
| find auto complete is unneccessary.
I think that input prediction, if done well, is a beautiful feature, and
one that would fit very well with acme, or maybe as a kind of plumbing. I
used to use a unix thing called "rk"; a markov chain style thing that
continuously prompted you with a line or two of predicted input. You
used the arrow keys or tab or ctrl-m to accept the next char/word/line
of the prediction. It was uncannily good. A lot of command line stuff is
very repetative, and anyone who's seen Rob's fake usenet postings can
see how good this kind of thing is for email. One of these days I'll
get around to hacking it into acme, maybe.
| > - Unless is it part of a grander plan (no pun intended), can we move
| > the process interrupt key from Del to something else and have the
| > conventional functionality of del back ?
Especially since PC keyboards have an actual "break" key to use.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help
2002-01-20 22:02 ` Scott Schwartz
@ 2002-01-22 9:54 ` ozan s yigit
2002-01-23 10:05 ` Bakul Shah
0 siblings, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: ozan s yigit @ 2002-01-22 9:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu (Scott Schwartz) writes:
> used to use a unix thing called "rk"; a markov chain style thing that
> continuously prompted you with a line or two of predicted input.
it is "reactive keyboard" and i believe was a thesis work at university
of calgary, by Darragh under Witten. i'm sure a web search would still turn
up pointers. there is a book about it, not sure if still in print. the
interface was interesting in trying to accomodate disabled people to
interact with command interfaces by predictive completion.
oz
--
www.cs.yorku.ca/~oz | if you couldn't find any weirdness, maybe
york u. computer science | we'll just have to make some! -- hobbes
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help
2002-01-20 21:01 ` Matt H
2002-01-20 22:02 ` Scott Schwartz
@ 2002-01-21 10:22 ` Boyd Roberts
2002-01-21 10:40 ` John Murdie
1 sibling, 1 reply; 210+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2002-01-21 10:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Matt H wrote:
> > - Why doesnt/Can rc have autocomplete and filename completion as in
> > bash ? This has become so neccessary.
> yes, well, you see plan9 is more mouse driven. eventually you'll probably end up with Acme as much your "shell" as anything, and you'll find auto complete is unneccessary.
> But you're right, it is a nice feature of the bash shell but then there are soooo many goddam directories on a Linux/FreeBSD box and auto complete is Bash's way of trying to alleviate the pain. If you miss it too much I'm sure you could just write a shell script to monitor /dev/cons for tabs, and echo the stuff into /dev/cons.
> Personally, I do prefer having the screen as free form is plan9's is. The shell is more than the commands you can type, it's where you can type them.
I remember the major flamewar over whether Byron's unix implementation of rc
should do this; I was in the 'no way' camp. The result was that you could
conditionally compile in that readline trash. You could probably pick it out
and stick into Plan 9's rc if you wanted to, but Plan 9 is not unix. It has
much better ways to do things.
I guess another way to do it is to use pipefile. One of the Kenji's (iirc)
did this for japanese input -- now there's a problem for you.
As for Latin-1: "Fco. J. Ballesteros" <nemo@plan9.escet.urjc.es> has volunteered
to clean up what I did late last year (I'm too busy). If anyone wants it I'll
send it on or put it on a web page somewhere. I think the only problem is the
caps-lock/ctrl key swap.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help
2002-01-21 10:22 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2002-01-21 10:40 ` John Murdie
0 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: John Murdie @ 2002-01-21 10:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans; +Cc: John Murdie
> - Why doesnt/Can rc have autocomplete and filename completion as in
> bash ? This has become so neccessary.
If you put the command history editor in the shell, then you can only
use it in the shell; if you use another shell from time to time, then
you have to learn to use that shell's (different) history mechanism.
It's far better to use a single, general, command history mechanism
provided by your terminal emulator or Acme (which is so more than a
terminal emulator). There is a slight loss from the shell and the
command history editor being separated, I know.
Incidentally, I hate command completion predictors; they remember my
typing mistakes days, weeks or months later, either hesitating to show
me the full, correct, command because of my previous mistake or, worse,
confidently complete my command with the mistake!
--
John A. Murdie
Experimental Officer (Software)
Department of Computer Science
University of York
England
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help
2002-01-20 20:02 [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help Roshan James
2002-01-20 21:01 ` Matt H
@ 2002-01-20 21:03 ` William S.
2002-01-20 21:34 ` William Josephson
2002-01-21 6:53 ` cej
3 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: William S. @ 2002-01-20 21:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
I can answer this one:
step one: (at the prompt type) a:
step two: cd /n/a:
Bill
Amsterdam, NL
On Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 01:32:35AM +0530, Roshan James wrote:
<<snip>>
>
> - How can i access the floppy a: ? /n/a: exists but shows no files.
<<snip>>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help
2002-01-20 20:02 [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help Roshan James
2002-01-20 21:01 ` Matt H
2002-01-20 21:03 ` William S.
@ 2002-01-20 21:34 ` William Josephson
2002-01-21 6:53 ` cej
3 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: William Josephson @ 2002-01-20 21:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 01:32:35AM +0530, Roshan James wrote:
> - Why doesnt/Can rc have autocomplete and filename completion as in
> bash ? This has become so neccessary.
binding everything on to /bin mostly remove the need for this.
If you haven't done so already, I would suggest grabbing the
various shell scripts and C programs from Russ Cox's web
page at www.eecs.harvard.edu/~rsc. " and "" are very useful
in conjunction with the mouse.
-WJ
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help
2002-01-20 20:02 [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help Roshan James
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2002-01-20 21:34 ` William Josephson
@ 2002-01-21 6:53 ` cej
3 siblings, 0 replies; 210+ messages in thread
From: cej @ 2002-01-21 6:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Rosh,
you can find some stupid scripts, including "find", at
http://cejchan.gli.cas.cz/plan9
Cheers,
--pac
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 210+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2002-06-29 2:23 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 210+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2000-08-18 15:34 [9fans] Re: Solaris thread scheaduling rob pike
[not found] ` <rob@plan9.bell-labs.com>
2000-08-02 14:48 ` [9fans] pipefile rob pike
2000-08-02 15:49 ` James A. Robinson
2000-08-18 20:25 ` [9fans] Re: Solaris thread scheaduling Tom Duff
2000-09-06 21:59 ` [9fans] Reliable Cray Y-MP C90 Supercomputer rob pike
2000-09-06 22:02 ` James A. Robinson
2000-09-06 22:14 ` Boyd Roberts
2000-09-06 22:11 ` Boyd Roberts
2000-09-07 22:18 ` [9fans] new versions of graphics programs? Tom Duff
2000-11-01 22:23 ` [9fans] /n/smtp rob pike
2000-11-01 22:38 ` Scott Schwartz
2000-11-24 0:41 ` [9fans] Crazy idea... or a new project? rob pike
2000-11-24 0:48 ` Boyd Roberts
2000-11-24 22:13 ` Scott Schwartz
2000-11-24 22:24 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-06 17:11 ` [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support rob pike
2001-02-06 19:10 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-02-06 19:23 ` Dan Cross
2001-02-07 15:23 ` [9fans] 9p2k, fsync rob pike
2001-02-07 18:42 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-02-08 1:19 ` Dan Cross
2001-02-08 9:43 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-02-14 13:51 ` [9fans] isatty rob pike
2001-02-14 16:42 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-03-26 14:12 ` [9fans] sam mod for delete-forward rob pike
2001-03-26 15:37 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-03-27 8:25 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-03-27 14:01 ` Sam
2001-03-27 16:51 ` Dan Cross
2001-03-28 8:37 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-03-29 8:26 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-03-26 15:42 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-05-10 14:59 ` [9fans] snprint(), getfields() specification rob pike
2001-05-10 16:42 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-05-10 18:13 ` Steve Kilbane
2001-05-10 21:38 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-11 6:51 ` Steve Kilbane
2001-05-19 14:14 ` Re[4]: [9fans] home, end ^h^j^k^l rob pike
2001-05-19 14:26 ` Re[6]: " Matt H
2001-05-19 22:45 ` [9fans] ls -m Scott Schwartz
2001-05-19 22:50 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-19 15:35 ` Re[4]: [9fans] home, end ^h^j^k^l James A. Robinson
2001-05-19 20:36 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-19 23:30 ` Richard Elberger
2001-05-20 2:37 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20 7:03 ` Lucio De Re
2001-05-20 11:16 ` paurea
2001-05-20 13:11 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20 13:04 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-23 8:24 ` Randolph Fritz
2001-05-23 8:46 ` Re[6]: " Matt H
2001-05-23 9:04 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20 0:16 ` [9fans] ls -m rob pike
2001-05-20 0:31 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20 1:38 ` [9fans] mouse vs key Scott Schwartz
2001-05-20 6:29 ` Dan Cross
2001-05-20 8:09 ` Matt H
2001-05-20 11:35 ` Re[2]: [9fans] mouse vs key - nethack matt
2001-05-20 13:13 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20 12:50 ` [9fans] mouse vs key Boyd Roberts
2001-05-29 4:27 ` [9fans] src vs db rob pike
2001-05-29 4:37 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-07-11 19:22 ` [9fans] sam vs acme rob pike
2001-07-11 20:08 ` James A. Robinson
2001-08-14 12:54 ` [9fans] User Interface rob pike
2001-08-14 15:01 ` James A. Robinson
2001-08-16 13:45 ` phaet0n
2001-08-20 8:57 ` Randolph Fritz
2001-12-02 3:10 ` [9fans] plumb rob pike
2001-12-02 3:31 ` Scott Schwartz
2002-01-30 5:52 ` [9fans] venti rob pike
2002-01-30 6:23 ` George Michaelson
2002-01-30 8:07 ` paurea
2002-01-30 11:17 ` Boyd Roberts
2002-03-01 6:20 ` Fwd: Re: [9fans] samuel (fwd) rob pike
2002-03-01 6:34 ` George Michaelson
2002-03-01 12:04 ` Boyd Roberts
2002-04-27 16:35 ` [9fans] Fourth Release of Plan 9 Now Available rob pike, esq.
2002-04-27 18:24 ` Scott Schwartz
2002-04-27 22:14 ` Laura Creighton
2002-04-29 9:37 ` Andrew
2002-06-28 16:49 ` [9fans] dumb question rob pike, esq.
2002-06-29 2:23 ` Scott Schwartz
2000-09-07 21:57 [9fans] new versions of graphics programs? rob pike
2000-09-07 22:50 ` Jim Choate
[not found] ` <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
2000-09-07 22:35 ` Tom Duff
2000-09-07 23:24 ` Jim Choate
2000-09-08 15:28 ` please_no_spam_to_
[not found] ` <D.M.Pick@qmw.ac.uk>
2000-09-08 16:43 ` Tom Duff
2001-02-03 23:40 [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support Boyd Roberts
2001-02-04 0:54 rob pike
2001-02-04 1:19 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-04 1:23 ` andrey mirtchovski
2001-02-04 1:37 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-04 0:55 rob pike
2001-02-04 1:09 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-04 4:29 ` Fariborz 'Skip' Tavakkolian
2001-02-04 13:28 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-04 14:09 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-05 5:59 ` Dan Cross
2001-02-05 1:33 okamoto
2001-02-05 1:40 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-05 7:51 Jean Mehat
2001-02-05 8:05 anothy
2001-02-05 18:36 ` Dan Cross
2001-02-05 10:34 Boyd Roberts
2001-02-05 13:07 ` paurea
2001-02-05 13:15 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-05 18:44 ` Dan Cross
2001-02-05 14:44 jmk
2001-02-05 18:46 ` Dan Cross
2001-02-05 19:11 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-06 5:11 ` Dan Cross
2001-02-05 18:55 jmk
2001-02-05 19:23 Ed Wishart
2001-02-06 5:20 ` Dan Cross
2001-02-06 1:15 okamoto
2001-02-06 1:19 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-06 5:50 ` Dan Cross
2001-02-06 1:33 okamoto
2001-02-06 1:41 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-06 2:05 okamoto
2001-02-06 2:13 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-06 11:02 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-06 17:01 ` Dan Cross
2001-02-06 14:57 ` Wladimir Mutel
2001-02-06 18:34 ` Theo Honohan
2001-02-09 16:49 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-06 5:53 ` Dan Cross
2001-02-06 11:15 forsyth
2001-02-06 13:34 William Staniewicz
2001-02-06 16:19 rob pike
2001-02-06 16:44 Richard Miller
2001-02-06 20:52 Russ Cox
2001-02-07 2:11 William Staniewicz
2001-06-09 17:22 [9fans] could those of you who have students check this out for forsyth
2001-06-09 18:50 ` [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science andrey mirtchovski
2001-06-09 17:56 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-11 8:27 ` pac
2001-06-11 15:19 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-11 21:43 ` Boyd Roberts
[not found] ` <0cb501c0f2bf$97cacea0$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>
2001-06-11 22:43 ` paurea
2001-06-12 14:18 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-12 15:50 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12 18:48 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-12 0:09 ` Scott Merrilees
2001-06-12 0:16 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12 0:42 ` Scott Merrilees
2001-06-12 1:08 ` Boyd Roberts
[not found] ` <0cc301c0f2c0$78949560$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>
2001-06-12 14:12 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-16 23:34 ` Matt
2001-06-28 21:29 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-28 22:03 ` Matt
2001-06-28 23:20 ` George Michaelson
2001-06-29 21:27 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-07-18 15:49 ` Ralph Corderoy
2001-06-29 4:30 ` Lucio De Re
[not found] <vikki@proweb.co.uk>
2001-06-10 17:32 ` [9fans] string to list? vikki
2001-06-10 17:47 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-10 17:55 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-10 18:03 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-06-10 21:48 ` Matt
2001-06-10 22:24 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-06-10 22:30 ` Boyd Roberts
[not found] <matt@proweb.co.uk>
2001-06-12 0:39 ` [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out Matt
2001-06-12 0:55 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-06-12 1:12 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12 1:00 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12 1:30 ` Jonathan Sergent
2001-06-15 8:27 ` Hermann Samso
2001-06-15 11:53 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-15 12:18 ` Matt
2001-06-15 14:01 ` Matt
2001-06-15 14:25 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-26 16:33 [9fans] bitsy question John Packer
2001-06-26 17:10 ` [9fans] " Dan Cross
2001-06-26 19:51 ` John Packer
2001-06-26 20:34 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-29 22:32 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-27 1:15 ` [9fans] Two cpu servers? Ish Rattan
2001-06-26 20:09 ` [9fans] Re: bitsy question John Packer
2001-06-26 20:36 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-26 20:18 ` Latchesar Ionkov
2001-06-26 20:28 ` Matt
2001-06-26 22:13 ` Steve Kilbane
2001-07-12 8:42 [9fans] architectures forsyth
2001-07-12 13:56 ` Laura Creighton
2001-07-12 16:13 ` Ozan Yigit
2001-07-12 16:33 ` Matt
2001-07-12 18:12 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-07-12 18:16 ` Martin Harriss
2001-07-12 18:43 ` Dan Cross
2001-07-13 14:52 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-07-13 15:13 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-10-25 17:55 [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9 Russ Cox
2001-10-25 18:29 ` William Josephson
2001-10-26 8:09 ` [9fans] acme bug/annoyance? Matt
2001-10-26 11:36 ` rob pike
2001-10-26 14:43 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-10-29 10:16 ` [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9 John S. Dyson
2002-01-20 20:02 [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help Roshan James
2002-01-20 21:01 ` Matt H
2002-01-20 22:02 ` Scott Schwartz
2002-01-22 9:54 ` ozan s yigit
2002-01-23 10:05 ` Bakul Shah
2002-01-21 10:22 ` Boyd Roberts
2002-01-21 10:40 ` John Murdie
2002-01-20 21:03 ` William S.
2002-01-20 21:34 ` William Josephson
2002-01-21 6:53 ` cej
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