* Re: [9fans] Re: Solaris thread scheaduling
@ 2000-08-18 15:34 rob pike
[not found] ` <rob@plan9.bell-labs.com>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: rob pike @ 2000-08-18 15:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
What, we should use uncooperative threads?
Adversarial threads? Anarchic threads?
I guess I don't know the terminology. If POSIX threads
are a good thing, perhaps I don't want to know what they're
better than.
-rob
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] new versions of graphics programs?
@ 2000-09-07 21:57 rob pike
2000-09-07 22:50 ` Jim Choate
0 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: rob pike @ 2000-09-07 21:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
I started on a couple of the tools. Since the PIC format is
now largely irrelevant - the standard image format captures
much of its capabilities - it seemed worth retiring the fb
software. Retiring it also helped keep the distribution smaller
and easier to assemble. But clearly, some of the tools in
fb/ are worth having.
I worked on a couple of the tools and stumbled into original
bugs that I didn't see how to fix, so that project has stalled.
The shipped gif and jpg tools and the iconv program should
address some of the lower-level needs. Higher-level
image processing is a project for a dedicated soul; it's a big
job.
-rob
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] could those of you who have students check this out for
@ 2001-06-09 17:22 forsyth
2001-06-09 18:50 ` [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science andrey mirtchovski
0 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: forsyth @ 2001-06-09 17:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>>our computer science department has strong roots in algorithmics.
that might be true, but do the students, in the main, write programs
except those they are required to do for assessments and projects?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-09 17:22 [9fans] could those of you who have students check this out for forsyth
@ 2001-06-09 18:50 ` andrey mirtchovski
2001-06-09 17:56 ` Boyd Roberts
` (3 more replies)
0 siblings, 4 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: andrey mirtchovski @ 2001-06-09 18:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
unfortunately dan cross is very right in his analysis -- most of the
students care not for algorithmics. the three classes i listed are the most
hated ones (together with the "Systems Programming and Introduction to
Operating Systems", the UNIX class) simply because they actually make the
students think...
there are the occasional bad apples who explore the field, write code
and are interested in the 'science' part of 'computer science'.. the others
are happy to get their 3 year degrees and drone off to the job market.
andrey
On Sat, 9 Jun 2001 forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk wrote:
> >>our computer science department has strong roots in algorithmics.
>
> that might be true, but do the students, in the main, write programs
> except those they are required to do for assessments and projects?
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-09 18:50 ` [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science andrey mirtchovski
@ 2001-06-09 17:56 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-11 8:27 ` pac
2001-06-11 15:19 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-12 0:09 ` Scott Merrilees
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 2 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-06-09 17:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
i don't think i'd go so far to call it a science -- more like an art.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-09 17:56 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-06-11 8:27 ` pac
2001-06-11 15:19 ` Dan Cross
1 sibling, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: pac @ 2001-06-11 8:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
IMHO, CS is to mathematics, as medicine is to biology; personally, I call them both "technology" :-(
Peter
--
Peter A. Cejchan
Dept. Paleobiology, Inst. Geology Acad. Sci.,
Rozvojova 135, Prague 6
CZ-16502 Czech Republic
<cej@cejchan.gli.cas.cz>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A plea:
Please, consider your support to the Public Library of Science initiative at
http://www.publiclibraryofscience.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-09 17:56 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-11 8:27 ` pac
@ 2001-06-11 15:19 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-11 21:43 ` Boyd Roberts
[not found] ` <0cb501c0f2bf$97cacea0$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>
1 sibling, 2 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-06-11 15:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
In article <041601c0f10d$72dabaa0$e8b7c6d4@SOMA> you write:
>i don't think i'd go so far to call it a science -- more like an art.
Okay, this is getting way off topic for 9fans, but, let me ask
this: at the real abstract, pure level, is science any different
at all from art? I contend that they're one and the same.
- Dan C.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-11 15:19 ` Dan Cross
@ 2001-06-11 21:43 ` Boyd Roberts
[not found] ` <0cb501c0f2bf$97cacea0$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-06-11 21:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
From: "Dan Cross" <cross@math.psu.edu>
> Okay, this is getting way off topic for 9fans, but, let me ask
> this: at the real abstract, pure level, is science any different
> at all from art? I contend that they're one and the same.
nonsense. physics is a science. i can predict things with it.
does computer science predict anything for me? i'll give you that
it does have an axiom that states:
you will be plagued by bugs in any development effort
but that doesn't really predict anything in anything that vaguely
approaches a _law_ of physics -- pick one. eg. the prohibition
of speeds greater than the of speed of light.
comp sci is more like an engineering discipline with very few
fundamentals.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <0cb501c0f2bf$97cacea0$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>]
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
[not found] ` <0cb501c0f2bf$97cacea0$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>
@ 2001-06-11 22:43 ` paurea
2001-06-12 14:18 ` Dan Cross
0 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: paurea @ 2001-06-11 22:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Boyd Roberts writes:
> From: "Boyd Roberts" <boyd@fr.inter.net>
> Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 23:43:45 +0200
>
> From: "Dan Cross" <cross@math.psu.edu>
> > Okay, this is getting way off topic for 9fans, but, let me ask
> > this: at the real abstract, pure level, is science any different
> > at all from art? I contend that they're one and the same.
>
> nonsense. physics is a science. i can predict things with it.
>
> does computer science predict anything for me? i'll give you that
> it does have an axiom that states:
>
> you will be plagued by bugs in any development effort
>
> but that doesn't really predict anything in anything that vaguely
> approaches a _law_ of physics -- pick one. eg. the prohibition
> of speeds greater than the of speed of light.
>
> comp sci is more like an engineering discipline with very few
> fundamentals.
¿Would you say Math is a science?.
Its theoretical foundations are based on turing machines...
(I believe all physics are written in math simbols...)
--
Saludos,
Gorka
"Curiosity sKilled the cat"
--
/"\
\ / ascii ribbon campaign - against html mail
X - against ms attachments
/ \
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-11 22:43 ` paurea
@ 2001-06-12 14:18 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-12 15:50 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-06-12 14:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
In article <15141.18819.7956.967025@nido.hilbert.space> you write:
>Would you say Math is a science?.
>Its theoretical foundations are based on turing machines...
Woah, they are? Mathematics, and many of its theoretical foundations,
existed for a really long time before Alan Turing was born....
>(I believe all physics are written in math simbols...)
Basically, but each discipline seems to invent its own psuedo-
mathematical notation. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it can
get really confusing (cf. i in mathematics vs. j in engineering).
- Dan C.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-09 18:50 ` [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science andrey mirtchovski
2001-06-09 17:56 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-06-12 0:09 ` Scott Merrilees
2001-06-12 0:16 ` Boyd Roberts
[not found] ` <0cc301c0f2c0$78949560$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>
2001-06-16 23:34 ` Matt
3 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Scott Merrilees @ 2001-06-12 0:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>unfortunately dan cross is very right in his analysis -- most of the
>students care not for algorithmics. the three classes i listed are the most
>hated ones (together with the "Systems Programming and Introduction to
>Operating Systems", the UNIX class) simply because they actually make the
>students think...
>
>there are the occasional bad apples who explore the field, write code
>and are interested in the 'science' part of 'computer science'.. the others
>are happy to get their 3 year degrees and drone off to the job market.
>
>andrey
Then you have the occasional CS dept / Computer Centre with a computer
usage policy that probihits all use of the univerity computer systems
except for specific course work.
Sm
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-12 0:09 ` Scott Merrilees
@ 2001-06-12 0:16 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12 0:42 ` Scott Merrilees
0 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-06-12 0:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> Then you have the occasional CS dept / Computer Centre with a computer
> usage policy that probihits all use of the univerity computer systems
> except for specific course work.
yeah, but some of us got around that and the more you got around
it the more you learned -- the useful stuff.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-12 0:16 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-06-12 0:42 ` Scott Merrilees
2001-06-12 1:08 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Scott Merrilees @ 2001-06-12 0:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>> Then you have the occasional CS dept / Computer Centre with a computer
>> usage policy that probihits all use of the univerity computer systems
>> except for specific course work.
>boyd:
>yeah, but some of us got around that and the more you got around
>it the more you learned -- the useful stuff.
Very true, but the above CS attitude encourages the production of
drones, while discouraging and even punishing those with the audacity
to try and do some self directed learning.
Sm
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-12 0:42 ` Scott Merrilees
@ 2001-06-12 1:08 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-06-12 1:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> Very true, but the above CS attitude encourages the production of
> drones, while discouraging and even punishing those with the audacity
> to try and do some self directed learning.
i don't disagree, but when you had 2000 students and one 11/780 for
all of them (even with share/hacks giving you a maximum of 128
simultaneous student logins) i guess something had to be done.
more resources would have been nice.
on the other hand, it was always a nice clause to use on password
crackers and others nuisances.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <0cc301c0f2c0$78949560$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>]
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
[not found] ` <0cc301c0f2c0$78949560$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>
@ 2001-06-12 14:12 ` Dan Cross
0 siblings, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-06-12 14:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
In article <0cc301c0f2c0$78949560$e8b7c6d4@SOMA> you write:
>nonsense. physics is a science. i can predict things with it.
I can predict things with computer science as well: the average
and worst-case running times of an algorithm, for instance, or
the amount of memory used by activation records in a recursive
algorithm.
>does computer science predict anything for me? i'll give you that
>it does have an axiom that states:
>
> you will be plagued by bugs in any development effort
This is a software engineering maxim. Speaking of which.... There
are ``laws'' of software engineering that are kind of like laws of
physics. Add more programmers to a late project, and it gets later;
etc.
>but that doesn't really predict anything in anything that vaguely
>approaches a _law_ of physics -- pick one. eg. the prohibition
>of speeds greater than the of speed of light.
The Church-Turing thesis; NP-complete problems; the halting problem,
just to name a few.
>comp sci is more like an engineering discipline with very few
>fundamentals.
Maybe, but that wasn't even my point.
- Dan C.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-09 18:50 ` [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science andrey mirtchovski
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
[not found] ` <0cc301c0f2c0$78949560$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>
@ 2001-06-16 23:34 ` Matt
2001-06-28 21:29 ` Boyd Roberts
3 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Matt @ 2001-06-16 23:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
My friend is on his third year (of 4) of his Computer Science Degree.
I know they've covered Assembler, Java, C++ and Databases.
I mentioned to him that Dennis Ritchie posted to 9fans thinking he might be
interested.
"Who?"
I didn't bother saying
"Those who do not understand Unix are doomed to reinvent it - poorly..."
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-16 23:34 ` Matt
@ 2001-06-28 21:29 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-28 22:03 ` Matt
0 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-06-28 21:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> I know they've covered Assembler, Java, C++ and Databases.
surely s/he could have picked a 5th worthless subject...
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-28 21:29 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-06-28 22:03 ` Matt
2001-06-28 23:20 ` George Michaelson
2001-06-29 4:30 ` Lucio De Re
0 siblings, 2 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Matt @ 2001-06-28 22:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
----- Original Message -----
From: "Boyd Roberts" <boyd@fr.inter.net>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
> > I know they've covered Assembler, Java, C++ and Databases.
>
> surely s/he could have picked a 5th worthless subject...
i think that's saved up for the final year
He constantly amazes us (his friends) with his computer cluelessness.
Like finding it difficult to persuade him that his overclocked celeron might
be struggling to execute the tcp/ip stack while he was trying to play
high-end games.
Or helping him install a windows based web proxy (literally double clicking
on setup.exe)
I remember they used MS Access for their database.
We had a CS graduate come for an interview. He was clearly a bit clueless.
The questions were scaled down to make him feel a bit better when he left.
"What is a hexadecimal number?"
"A combination of numbers and letters"
He had a nice suit on though.
M
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-28 22:03 ` Matt
@ 2001-06-28 23:20 ` George Michaelson
2001-06-29 21:27 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-07-18 15:49 ` Ralph Corderoy
2001-06-29 4:30 ` Lucio De Re
1 sibling, 2 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: George Michaelson @ 2001-06-28 23:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> We had a CS graduate come for an interview. He was clearly a bit clueless.
> The questions were scaled down to make him feel a bit better when he left.
> "What is a hexadecimal number?"
> "A combination of numbers and letters"
>
You know, there are contexts where this is the right answer. Like, if you
manipulate them as input/output objects and need to check the datastream
to see if the tokenising input should end.
And, the difference between Hex 0F and Decimal 15 is that both have exactly
the same bit-pattern in memory. Strangely, if you add 2 apples in hex
and 2 oranges in decimal OR octal, you still have 4 bits of fruit. So, you
can do mixed-base sums after all. Why don't they teach you that at
school any more?
I had a chum who'd had a 6th finger cut off early. If they'd left it on, would
he have had any advantages doing finger arithmetic?
> He had a nice suit on though.
>
Should'a employed him then. Anybody slavish enough to dress up to get a job
is probably going to work hard for the first 7 months until disallusionment
sets in.
I still writhe with embarrassment recalling an interview for the UK N.E.R.C
to get a junior progroid job onboard the antarctic ships, when asked to
write a solution to pythagoras in pascal, there, in front of the panel. Flop
sweat and memory loss and nicotine withdrawal and sheer fright combined to
make it both humiliating for me, and revealing for them. I think they made
the right decision to quietly let me go. Still, I got to see the steam loco
graveyard at barry island so it wasn't all wasted.
cheers
-George
PS I suspect that in this niche, people aren't working as a result of a
successful interview. I think they probably know people who know people
who trust people who let them on board. If there is an interview, its
more like dogs sniffing each other, or 'do you wanna be in my gang?' than
joining the army.
--
George Michaelson | APNIC
Email: ggm@apnic.net | PO Box 2131 Milton QLD 4064
Phone: +61 7 3367 0490 | Australia
Fax: +61 7 3367 0482 | http://www.apnic.net
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science
2001-06-28 22:03 ` Matt
2001-06-28 23:20 ` George Michaelson
@ 2001-06-29 4:30 ` Lucio De Re
1 sibling, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Lucio De Re @ 2001-06-29 4:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 11:03:57PM +0100, Matt wrote:
>
> He had a nice suit on though.
>
You don't get, it then :-) It's the shoes, what shoes was he
wearing? Were they well polished?
++L
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <vikki@proweb.co.uk>]
* Re: [9fans] string to list?
@ 2001-06-10 17:32 ` vikki
2001-06-10 17:47 ` Boyd Roberts
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: vikki @ 2001-06-10 17:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>rc irc client? sounds reasonable :)
>i wish i could find my 80-line C irc client i wrote last year for p9 (it
was
>my first project :).. come to think of it though, rc is a much better idea
>and a funnier one to implement :) wish i had a working p9 installation, i
>could've helped!
We're having a bit of a competition at work. They've got their monolithic
perl bot running. I'm trying to impress them with the plan9 version as a
learning exercise. I plan to have it do eval `{$msg} and do whatever it's
namespace will let it. They keep adding code to the perl bot and getting
deeper and deeper. Already they've had to split it in half (on my suggestion
:-) to separate information gathering and display.
>how about awk? daemonize an awk program if RC does not five you the
>utility to do it :)
yeah that's a good idea. I didn't fancy spawning awk for every line of irc.
I did wonder one day why plan9 has any command line utilities at all apart
from bind, mount, import, unmount , cd, echo and cat.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <matt@proweb.co.uk>]
* [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out
@ 2001-06-12 0:39 ` Matt
2001-06-12 0:55 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-06-12 1:00 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 2 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Matt @ 2001-06-12 0:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Well it's not going too well.
I got this far but of course (I can say that now)
the `{..} doesn't return until $netdir/data sends an eof
and then prints each line
ifs='
'
for (k in `{ cat $netdir/data }) {
echo $k
}
so how do i read a line at a time before `{..} closes it's stdout?
once I've cracked that it's just about finished
M
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out
2001-06-12 0:39 ` [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out Matt
@ 2001-06-12 0:55 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-06-12 1:12 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12 1:00 ` Boyd Roberts
1 sibling, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Scott Schwartz @ 2001-06-12 0:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
| I got this far but of course (I can say that now)
| the `{..} doesn't return until $netdir/data sends an eof
| and then prints each line
Instead of "for cat", don't you want "while read"?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out
2001-06-12 0:39 ` [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out Matt
2001-06-12 0:55 ` Scott Schwartz
@ 2001-06-12 1:00 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12 1:30 ` Jonathan Sergent
2001-06-15 8:27 ` Hermann Samso
1 sibling, 2 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-06-12 1:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> I got this far but of course (I can say that now)
> the `{..} doesn't return until $netdir/data sends an eof
> and then prints each line
well, obviously. it's a file isn't it? <smirk>
> so how do i read a line at a time before `{..} closes it's stdout?
write some C program that that reads _unbuffered_ characters
and spits them until it sees 'end of line' (whatever that may be).
you should buffer the output, but _not_ the input.
can't be more than 20 lines of code.
btw: i hope you're dealing with 8 bit chars 'cos latin-1 will
really screw up utf encoded streams that the rest of the
system expects. years ago i wrote (on ultrix) riso [rune
to iso-latin-1] and isor (pronounced eye-sore) filters
so that the unix sam could deal with the few french docs
i had to deal with.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out
2001-06-12 1:00 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-06-12 1:30 ` Jonathan Sergent
2001-06-15 8:27 ` Hermann Samso
1 sibling, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Jonathan Sergent @ 2001-06-12 1:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On Monday, June 11, 2001, at 06:00 PM, Boyd Roberts wrote:
> write some C program that that reads _unbuffered_ characters
> and spits them until it sees 'end of line' (whatever that may be).
> you should buffer the output, but _not_ the input.
You could just read the manual and use /bin/read, instead of rewriting
it.
So you get
{
while () {
line=`{read}
echo line: $line
}
} < filename
Somehow putting the < filename after the inner } makes rc reopen it for
each loop iteration. (Am I misinterpreting this?)
A more convoluted way to do to the same thing would be
{ echo 0 > /srv/something.$pid } < filename
while () {
line=`{read /srv/something.$pid}
echo line: $line
}
rm /srv/something.$pid
but that's probably better for showing off /srv to your friends than it
is for actually solving the problem.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out
2001-06-12 1:00 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12 1:30 ` Jonathan Sergent
@ 2001-06-15 8:27 ` Hermann Samso
2001-06-15 11:53 ` Boyd Roberts
1 sibling, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Hermann Samso @ 2001-06-15 8:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Boyd Roberts <boyd@fr.inter.net> wrote:
>> I got this far but of course (I can say that now)
>> the `{..} doesn't return until $netdir/data sends an eof
>> and then prints each line
> well, obviously. it's a file isn't it? <smirk>
>> so how do i read a line at a time before `{..} closes it's stdout?
> write some C program that that reads _unbuffered_ characters
> and spits them until it sees 'end of line' (whatever that may be).
> you should buffer the output, but _not_ the input.
> can't be more than 20 lines of code.
> btw: i hope you're dealing with 8 bit chars 'cos latin-1 will
> really screw up utf encoded streams that the rest of the
> system expects. years ago i wrote (on ultrix) riso [rune
> to iso-latin-1] and isor (pronounced eye-sore) filters
> so that the unix sam could deal with the few french docs
> i had to deal with.
With so many snippets of code, everyone could make use
of, isn't there any common repository? Or will they
allget integrated in time for next release?
Ok, there is always Deja News, but...
saludos,
hermann samso
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out
2001-06-15 8:27 ` Hermann Samso
@ 2001-06-15 11:53 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-15 12:18 ` Matt
2001-06-15 14:01 ` Matt
0 siblings, 2 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-06-15 11:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
From: "Hermann Samso" <samso@studserv.stud.uni-hannover.de>
> With so many snippets of code, everyone could make use
> of, isn't there any common repository? Or will they
> allget integrated in time for next release?
> Ok, there is always Deja News, but...
oh, but there is. you must have missed the 'why don't
we build a common repository' thread. i finally cracked
(in desperation) and did this:
http://mapage.noos.fr/~repo
but about the only thing it's done is to a) proove a
point and b) receive mail of the form 'nice page.
the first cut was done by hand, the second is automated
with a mash-mk mashfile on inferno.
the bitsy code should probably go back to 1127.
i don't mind adding it too.
matt's rc irc bot could be added if he so wishes.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out
2001-06-15 11:53 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-06-15 12:18 ` Matt
2001-06-15 14:01 ` Matt
1 sibling, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Matt @ 2001-06-15 12:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
----- Original Message -----
From: "Boyd Roberts" <boyd@fr.inter.net>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out
> From: "Hermann Samso" <samso@studserv.stud.uni-hannover.de>
> > With so many snippets of code, everyone could make use
> > of, isn't there any common repository? Or will they
> > allget integrated in time for next release?
> > Ok, there is always Deja News, but...
>
> oh, but there is. you must have missed the 'why don't
> we build a common repository' thread. i finally cracked
> (in desperation) and did this:
>
> http://mapage.noos.fr/~repo
>
> but about the only thing it's done is to a) proove a
> point and b) receive mail of the form 'nice page.
>
> the first cut was done by hand, the second is automated
> with a mash-mk mashfile on inferno.
>
> the bitsy code should probably go back to 1127.
> i don't mind adding it too.
>
> matt's rc irc bot could be added if he so wishes.
>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out
2001-06-15 11:53 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-15 12:18 ` Matt
@ 2001-06-15 14:01 ` Matt
2001-06-15 14:25 ` Boyd Roberts
1 sibling, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Matt @ 2001-06-15 14:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
bugger, sorry
>but about the only thing it's done is to a) proove a
>point and b) receive mail of the form 'nice page.
no news is good news?
>matt's rc irc bot could be added if he so wishes
A basic irc bot that evals commands it's given with
the permission & namespace of whoever started it.
http://www.proweb.co.uk/~matt/chugly.rc
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out
2001-06-15 14:01 ` Matt
@ 2001-06-15 14:25 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-06-15 14:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> no news is good news?
well, it's better than being the middle of a firefight...
err, flamewar.
> A basic irc bot that evals commands it's given with
> the permission & namespace of whoever started it.
> http://www.proweb.co.uk/~matt/chugly.rc
ok, will do.
i got it down to this as a mashfile:
for (i in contrib/*)
contrib.html : $i/li.html;
*/*/li.html :~ $1/$2/url { mash tools/c2li $1/$2 > $0 };
*/*/url :~ $1/$2/desc {};
*/*/desc :~ $1/$2/from {};
*/*/from :~ $1/$2/date {};
*.html :~ $1/0/url { cat $1/*/li.html > $0 };
default: index.html {};
index.html : head.html contrib.html tail.html { cat head.html contrib.html tail.html > index.html };
----
the contrib directory has directories, named 0...n, which have these files:
url
desc [description]
from
date [rfc822/std11 date. it's well known and can be parsed]
li.html [this is the html <li> made out of the above files]
brucee gave me a bit of a hand, 'cos mash-mk is not mk or make.
i think he has a much better and simpler solution to the problem.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* [9fans] bitsy question
@ 2001-06-26 16:33 John Packer
2001-06-26 17:10 ` [9fans] " Dan Cross
0 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: John Packer @ 2001-06-26 16:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
I have Plan9 installed on my ipaq, but I don't have a pcmcia sleeve,
or wavelan on my network.
So I have been trying to link the bitsy to my terminal using ppp over
the
serial port. (I made a ramdisk with ip/ppp).
PPP tries to authenticate for 30 seconds (through chap, I think) then
times out.
I've tried running ppp a few different ways, but something like
ip/ppp -df -b 115200 -p /dev/eia0 -s $user:$secret 135.104.99.5
on the bitsy and something like
ip/ppp -dfS -b 115200 -p /dev/eia0 135.104.99.1
on the server.
Has anyone tried this? What am I doing wrong?
Thanks,
John
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* [9fans] Re: bitsy question
2001-06-26 16:33 [9fans] bitsy question John Packer
@ 2001-06-26 17:10 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-26 19:51 ` John Packer
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-06-26 17:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: packer; +Cc: 9fans
In article <3B38BA06.E55B62AC@bway.net> you write:
>I have Plan9 installed on my ipaq, but I don't have a pcmcia sleeve,
>or wavelan on my network.
Ouch; that makes it much more difficult to use, as you have discovered.
>So I have been trying to link the bitsy to my terminal using ppp over
>the serial port. (I made a ramdisk with ip/ppp).
>
>PPP tries to authenticate for 30 seconds (through chap, I think) then
>times out.
>
>I've tried running ppp a few different ways, but something like
>
> ip/ppp -df -b 115200 -p /dev/eia0 -s $user:$secret 135.104.99.5
>
>on the bitsy and something like
>
> ip/ppp -dfS -b 115200 -p /dev/eia0 135.104.99.1
>
>on the server.
>
>Has anyone tried this? What am I doing wrong?
Well, at least one thing that you're probably encountering is that the
bitsy tries to use the serial port as a console device, and is
hardwired in the kernel to do so. In order to fix that, you have to
edit the kernel sources in /sys/src/9/bitsy/ and recompile; I managed
to turn it off by changing the argument to sa1110_uartsetup() to zero
in main.c. However, if you do ONLY that, the machine panics when it
comes up because the keyboard input queue for the console device is
nil. Whoops! You have to change sa1110_uartsetup() in sa1110uart.c
(the last routine in the file) to assign a valid Queue pointer to
kbdq. I just changed the relevant section to be:
if(console) {
uartspecial(p, 115200, &kbdq, &printq, kbdcr2nl);
} else {
kbdq = qopen(4*1024, 0, 0, 0);
}
That is, adding the ``else'' clause which calls qopen. I'm not sure
that this is the best method; if there's a better one, I'd be
interested to know.
btw- the serial console mode can be really handy at times; it's nice to
be able to put the bitsy on it's cradle, start up con, and then type
into bitsy windows without using bitsy/keyboard. The hand becomes much
less cramped.
Anyway, I'm assuming this is something you haven't messed with yet;
it'd most definately mess with ip/ppp, since every other character gets
redirected to /dev/cons!
Another problem you may have is that the bitsy uart driver doesn't
really do modem control; actually, it might be more accurate to say
that the StrongARM SA1100 doesn't do modem control signaling directly.
Instead, it simulates it using the GPIO pins on the 1100. I'm not sure
what exactly, if anything, the bitsy does differently in this regard
(the driver has a comment about the RTS/CTS stuff being h3600 specific,
but nothing more); my attempts to add DTR and RTS/CTS modem control to
the serial driver didn't work the way I had expected them to (I was
trying to hack them in in order to get my Targus stowaway keyboard
working; I did get it to mostly ``do the right thing,'' but it wasn't
perfect and I got busy with other stuff. I'll get back to it
eventually.)
I've been meaning to try out ppp on the bitsy, using my ricochet modem,
but I haven't round a serial cable for it yet (well, I haven't exactly
been looking that hard). I definately thing it'd be pretty cool to use
my bitsy to send email from the train.
bway.net, huh? You in New York? Anyone else on the list in NYC? We
ought to start a New York Plan 9 Club or something.
- Dan C.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* [9fans] Re: bitsy question
2001-06-26 17:10 ` [9fans] " Dan Cross
@ 2001-06-26 19:51 ` John Packer
2001-06-26 20:34 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-27 1:15 ` [9fans] Two cpu servers? Ish Rattan
2001-06-26 20:09 ` [9fans] Re: bitsy question John Packer
2001-06-26 20:18 ` Latchesar Ionkov
2 siblings, 2 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: John Packer @ 2001-06-26 19:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dan Cross, 9fans
Dan Cross wrote:
> You have to change sa1110_uartsetup() in sa1110uart.c
> (the last routine in the file) to assign a valid Queue pointer to
> kbdq. I just changed the relevant section to be:
>
> if(console) {
> uartspecial(p, 115200, &kbdq, &printq, kbdcr2nl);
> } else {
> kbdq = qopen(4*1024, 0, 0, 0);
> }
>
This is an interesting clue. I'll try this out tonight.
> btw- the serial console mode can be really handy at times; it's nice to
> be able to put the bitsy on it's cradle, start up con, and then type
> into bitsy windows without using bitsy/keyboard.
I've noticed this - very useful.
> Another problem you may have is that the bitsy uart driver doesn't
> really do modem control
I don't think I need modem control, I'm not using a modem: just a
PPP server and client over the serial cable to my PC.
This is, I'm guessing, how ActiveSync works, and how Linux users connect
to their Ipaqs.
It just doesn't seem to authenticate.
This may be the wrong approach, I don't know.
> I've been meaning to try out ppp on the bitsy, using my ricochet modem,
> but I haven't round a serial cable for it yet (well, I haven't exactly
> been looking that hard). I definately thing it'd be pretty cool to use
> my bitsy to send email from the train.
Very.
>
> bway.net, huh? You in New York? Anyone else on the list in NYC? We
> ought to start a New York Plan 9 Club or something.
Yep.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: bitsy question
2001-06-26 19:51 ` John Packer
@ 2001-06-26 20:34 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-29 22:32 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-27 1:15 ` [9fans] Two cpu servers? Ish Rattan
1 sibling, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-06-26 20:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans; +Cc: packer
In article <3B38E7BE.D4C22541@bway.net> you write:
>
> [...]
>
>> Another problem you may have is that the bitsy uart driver doesn't
>> really do modem control
>
>I don't think I need modem control, I'm not using a modem: just a
>PPP server and client over the serial cable to my PC.
Oh duh; of course you said that earlier and I was too slow to catch
on. Yes, you're right; if you're not using a modem, you don't need
modem control. For that matter, you might not need modem control
even if you have a modem.
>This is, I'm guessing, how ActiveSync works, and how Linux users connect
>to their Ipaqs.
Well, I think they mostly use ``normal'' serial line protocols; either
just raw text passed over the serial line, or using a data transfer
protocol like xmodem. I'm not sure they'd bother with the overhead of
PPP in the general case (where they just wanted to sync data, or copy
a file; for making TCP connections and the like, yeah, you'd need PPP
or SLIP or a real network interface).
>It just doesn't seem to authenticate.
That's almost certainly the keyboard input queue messing you up.
>This may be the wrong approach, I don't know.
Well, if you've got an extra thousand bucks just laying around, definately
invest in the Wavelan route. If not, then it's a reasonable approach; it
won't zoom, though, and I've found ip/ppp pretty unreliable (using a wireless
modem, though; still, it seems to work reasonably well under FreeBSD. I
haven't been motivated enough to track down what's wrong, though).
> [...]
>
>> bway.net, huh? You in New York? Anyone else on the list in NYC? We
>> ought to start a New York Plan 9 Club or something.
>
>Yep.
Cool. Any other New Yorker's?
- Dan C.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* [9fans] Two cpu servers?
2001-06-26 19:51 ` John Packer
2001-06-26 20:34 ` Dan Cross
@ 2001-06-27 1:15 ` Ish Rattan
1 sibling, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Ish Rattan @ 2001-06-27 1:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Does it make sense to have two cpu-servers?
I have a standalone spu/auth server running. How can I add another cpu
server to have two of these?
Any pointers will be appreciated.
-ishwar
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* [9fans] Re: bitsy question
2001-06-26 17:10 ` [9fans] " Dan Cross
2001-06-26 19:51 ` John Packer
@ 2001-06-26 20:09 ` John Packer
2001-06-26 20:36 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-26 20:18 ` Latchesar Ionkov
2 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: John Packer @ 2001-06-26 20:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> Do you also use that serial line as the console? You'll get garbage
> in your packets that way.
>
> Sape
Hmm. I'm not running a con window when I try this.
The debugging output appears to indicate a lack of response to a CHAP
request.
Maybe it is not picking up the '-s $user:$secret' option from the client.
John
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Re: bitsy question
2001-06-26 17:10 ` [9fans] " Dan Cross
2001-06-26 19:51 ` John Packer
2001-06-26 20:09 ` [9fans] Re: bitsy question John Packer
@ 2001-06-26 20:18 ` Latchesar Ionkov
2001-06-26 20:28 ` Matt
2 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Latchesar Ionkov @ 2001-06-26 20:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 01:10:45PM -0400, Dan Cross said:
>
> bway.net, huh? You in New York? Anyone else on the list in NYC? We
> ought to start a New York Plan 9 Club or something.
I am in New York too.
Lucho
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] architectures
@ 2001-07-12 8:42 forsyth
2001-07-12 13:56 ` Laura Creighton
2001-07-12 16:13 ` Ozan Yigit
0 siblings, 2 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: forsyth @ 2001-07-12 8:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>>i'm particularly fond of the acme interface, and i really
>>like the chording (okay, maybe it's not for everyone, but _i_
>>really like it). i'm asking about non-techie folks. for them,
>>wouldn't a single-button interface be simpler to understand?
not necessarily, since the functionality of the extra buttons
must be provided somehow, whether by menus, pop-up menus,
key-mouse combinations, keys alone, or some other way. much might
depend on the choice of conventions for using more than one button.
that in acme all three buttons select text is a big simplification.
i usually introduce it as follows: ``button 1 selects text, button 2
selects text, and button 3 ...'' and during the following pause
nearly everyone says ``selects text?''. i then explain
that `of course' each button does different things with
the text selected. that seems fine. the chording for cut/paste/copy
takes a little practice, but since it has a `feel' much like grabbing
text from the screen, that also seems fine. outside acme,
the Blit convention (perhaps adopted from Smalltalk, i don't know)
was something like: button 1 generally selected things, button 2 provided local
operations (usually on the thing selected), and button 3 provided global operations
for the application, with a few exceptions such as paint programs.
most menus were kept fairly small.
i know at least one non- technical user of acme who sends and receives
mail, plumbing photos and other things, and editing quite happily.
other non-technical people i've shown it to wanted to use acme on
their machines for document preparation and email because the
organisation into columns and frames and the use of the buttons was
just so much more effective than their `desktop' or a clutter of
windows. (they also like the soft use of colour.)
contrary to Tog's advice on this point: with care i suspect
you can make abstractions simple and effective enough without insisting on
drawing a tenuous likeness to something in the `real world'.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] architectures
2001-07-12 8:42 [9fans] architectures forsyth
@ 2001-07-12 13:56 ` Laura Creighton
2001-07-12 16:13 ` Ozan Yigit
1 sibling, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Laura Creighton @ 2001-07-12 13:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans; +Cc: lac
re: drawing tenuous likenesses to the real world.
It is possible in the days before everybody knew what a computer was,
and a computer program was, that there was some value in giving a user
a metaphor with something else on the real world. These days it is a
major problem because quite frequently the metaphor is lousier than
what we could write if we focused on _how efficiently can we do what
we want to do_ rather than _what is something, anything, that somebody
is likely to have done before which is sort of like what we want to do_.
My favourite example is the desktop metaphor. Now neat people can
have the experience of a messed up and cluttered desk. You too can
lose important work and documents because you can't find them!
Laura
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] architectures
2001-07-12 8:42 [9fans] architectures forsyth
2001-07-12 13:56 ` Laura Creighton
@ 2001-07-12 16:13 ` Ozan Yigit
2001-07-12 16:33 ` Matt
1 sibling, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Ozan Yigit @ 2001-07-12 16:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk writes:
> contrary to Tog's advice on this point: with care i suspect
> you can make abstractions simple and effective enough without insisting on
> drawing a tenuous likeness to something in the `real world'.
An interesting related bit of work is "The Anti-Mac Interface" by Don
Gentner and Jakob Nielson, Communications of the ACM, 29(8), pp. 70-82
August 1996, but also found online. i wish we could have more of this kind
of de/re-construction; attempting to break all the interface design rules
and see what comes out. the results of this particular attempt are more
along the lines of raisin-bran cereal than waldorf salad but thought
provoking nevertheless.
oz
--
www.cs.yorku.ca/~oz | if you couldn't find any weirdness, maybe
york u. computer science | we'll just have to make some! -- hobbes
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] architectures
2001-07-12 16:13 ` Ozan Yigit
@ 2001-07-12 16:33 ` Matt
2001-07-12 18:12 ` Scott Schwartz
0 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Matt @ 2001-07-12 16:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> An interesting related bit of work is "The Anti-Mac Interface" by Don
> Gentner and Jakob Nielson, Communications of the ACM, 29(8), pp. 70-82
> August 1996, but also found online.
http://www.acm.org/cacm/AUG96/antimac.htm
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] architectures
2001-07-12 16:33 ` Matt
@ 2001-07-12 18:12 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-07-12 18:16 ` Martin Harriss
2001-07-12 18:43 ` Dan Cross
0 siblings, 2 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Scott Schwartz @ 2001-07-12 18:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> http://www.acm.org/cacm/AUG96/antimac.htm
``...in designing Sun's home page we decided we needed to change it drastically
every month to keep the users' interest...''
No wonder it's so totally impossible to find anything in there! That one
statement makes me doubt every other thing they said. Sun's web site
has to be the worst I've ever used, especially taking into account
the obviously huge amount of effort that goes into it. It's clearly
all about entertaining suits, and not at all about making information
available to users who don't want to waste their time.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] architectures
2001-07-12 18:12 ` Scott Schwartz
@ 2001-07-12 18:16 ` Martin Harriss
2001-07-12 18:43 ` Dan Cross
1 sibling, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Martin Harriss @ 2001-07-12 18:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Scott Schwartz wrote:
>
> > http://www.acm.org/cacm/AUG96/antimac.htm
>
> ``...in designing Sun's home page we decided we needed to change it drastically
> every month to keep the users' interest...''
>
> No wonder it's so totally impossible to find anything in there! That one
> statement makes me doubt every other thing they said. Sun's web site
> has to be the worst I've ever used, especially taking into account
> the obviously huge amount of effort that goes into it. It's clearly
> all about entertaining suits, and not at all about making information
> available to users who don't want to waste their time.
It's also one of the slowest web sites around. I hate to think of the
amount of time that I've had to wait wating for their pages to load.
They used to *boast* that their web services were provided by a pair of
Ultra 1's. Looks like they still are.
</gripe>
Martin
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] architectures
2001-07-12 18:12 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-07-12 18:16 ` Martin Harriss
@ 2001-07-12 18:43 ` Dan Cross
2001-07-13 14:52 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
1 sibling, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-07-12 18:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
In article <20010712181225.17835.qmail@g.bio.cse.psu.edu> you write:
>``...in designing Sun's home page we decided we needed to change it drastically
>every month to keep the users' interest...''
Hmm, I predict that Sun will be the DEC of the 2000's; they'll stick
to an obsolete and overburdened product line until it's too late, and
then get bought out by Dell and ultimately squashed under foot.
- Dan ``I saw a Solarian Light'' C.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* [9fans] User Interface
@ 2001-08-14 9:46 Eric de Redelijkheid
2001-08-14 13:15 ` John Murdie
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Eric de Redelijkheid @ 2001-08-14 9:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
I recently heard about plan9 when I was just browsing the Internet
looking for some UNIX-related documents.
I saw it was possible to download a copy and since I have an IBM
Thinkpad 390E which I don't really use anymore, I installed it. The
installation was very simple; that gave me good hopes about general use.
I trust that the concepts were well concidered when designing this
operating system, however I have never seen a more awkward user
interface since twm. The editors, sam and acme are virtually unusable.
Why is it that such a simple task as editing the contents of a textfile
must cause so much pain? At least some of you must have seen notepad.exe
at work during your lifetime? It can´t do much, but it gets the job done
in a simple way!
Why is there not just one single command to create a new user, but do I
need first to make the file /adm/users writable, edit this file (with
more luck then wisdom), and type in at least three different commands.
When I log on with the new username, I have to give another command to
get the computer to present me a graphical user environment; which is a
grey screen.
I don't know for whom the designers created this operating system, but I
hope that they had human beings in mind.
In my opinion every task performed on a computer:
- installation
- administration
- general use (word processing, spreadsheet, mail etc..)
- programming
should be done with the aid of a simple, intuitive, point- and- click,
graphical user interface.
btw: is there a shutdown command or do I just switch my laptop of?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-14 9:46 [9fans] User Interface Eric de Redelijkheid
@ 2001-08-14 13:15 ` John Murdie
2001-08-15 13:23 ` William K. Josephson
2001-08-16 21:04 ` Boyd Roberts
2 siblings, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: John Murdie @ 2001-08-14 13:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans; +Cc: John Murdie
On 14 Aug, Eric de Redelijkheid wrote:
> In my opinion every task performed on a computer:
> - installation
> - administration
> - general use (word processing, spreadsheet, mail etc..)
> - programming
> should be done with the aid of a simple, intuitive, point- and- click,
> graphical user interface.
I recall Brian Kernighan's statement along the lines of: ``The trouble
with WYSIWYG is that What You See Is All That You Get.''
I think that the term WYSIWYG is misused; as far as WYSIWYG goes, it's
fine - _of course_ I want my document preview to be printed as exactly
as I see it on the display - what people usually mean when they say
WYSIWYG is actually `direct manipulation' (Ben Schneiderman, 1983, I
think). This in turn usually means that all grammar more complicated
than `noun-verb' (perhaps modified with adjectives or arguments) has
been removed from the interface.
If you've ever seen, as I have, e.g. a Windows administrator creating
student accounts by printing out the E-mailed list which came from my
University's Administration, and then typing in each student's details
again, then pressing `Create account' and `Ok' buttons (or more!) for
each one, you'll know how bankrupt the idea of (only) direct
manipulation is. Even cutting and pasting by hand wouldn't have saved
them much time. (A Unix or Plan 9 user would pipe the E-mail through
(say) an awk script and finish the student account creation in a matter
of seconds, or minutes if the script didn't pre-exist.) Of course, this
is old hat to most people on this list.
As for intuitive, why, video recorders have exactly the kind of
interface that you describe. Why then are they so difficult to use?
(Ok, some might argue that this is off-topic, but I'd say that it is
connected with the why Plan 9 is as it is.)
--
John A. Murdie
Department of Computer Science
University of York
England
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-14 9:46 [9fans] User Interface Eric de Redelijkheid
2001-08-14 13:15 ` John Murdie
@ 2001-08-15 13:23 ` William K. Josephson
2001-08-16 21:04 ` Boyd Roberts
2 siblings, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: William K. Josephson @ 2001-08-15 13:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On Tue, Aug 14, 2001 at 09:46:06AM +0000, Eric de Redelijkheid wrote:
> I trust that the concepts were well concidered when designing this
> operating system, however I have never seen a more awkward user
> interface since twm. The editors, sam and acme are virtually unusable.
> Why is it that such a simple task as editing the contents of a textfile
> must cause so much pain? At least some of you must have seen notepad.exe
> at work during your lifetime? It can´t do much, but it gets the job done
> in a simple way!
Actually, I think acme is the best new piece of software I've used
since I started using Unix a decade ago. There are some minor
annoyances and the documentation could be better, however I appreciate
the economy of motion required to use the editor. Plan 9 is not
especiauuuully kind to those who aren't willing to give new ideas and
new ways of doing things a chance :-)
> btw: is there a shutdown command or do I just switch my laptop of?
disk/kfscmd halt followed by the Big Red Switch.
-WJ
Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong.
-- Oscar Wilde
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-14 9:46 [9fans] User Interface Eric de Redelijkheid
2001-08-14 13:15 ` John Murdie
2001-08-15 13:23 ` William K. Josephson
@ 2001-08-16 21:04 ` Boyd Roberts
2 siblings, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-08-16 21:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
From: "Eric de Redelijkheid" <eric.de.redelijkheid@xs4all.nl>
> btw: is there a shutdown command or do I just switch my laptop of?
just switch it off and leave it off.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
@ 2001-08-14 10:02 nigel
2001-08-14 10:27 ` Lucio De Re
0 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: nigel @ 2001-08-14 10:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>> btw: is there a shutdown command or do I just switch my laptop of?
I'd just switch it off.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-14 10:02 nigel
@ 2001-08-14 10:27 ` Lucio De Re
2001-08-14 12:45 ` pac
0 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Lucio De Re @ 2001-08-14 10:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On Tue, Aug 14, 2001 at 11:02:47AM +0100, nigel@9fs.org wrote:
>
> >> btw: is there a shutdown command or do I just switch my laptop of?
>
> I'd just switch it off.
Amen. Lucio.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-14 10:27 ` Lucio De Re
@ 2001-08-14 12:45 ` pac
2001-08-15 8:34 ` Eric de Redelijkheid
[not found] ` <200108151619.MAA07420@augusta.math.psu.edu>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: pac @ 2001-08-14 12:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>> On Tue, Aug 14, 2001 at 11:02:47AM +0100, nigel@9fs.org wrote:
>> >
>> > >> btw: is there a shutdown command or do I just switch my laptop of?
>> >
>> > I'd just switch it off.
>>
>> Amen. Lucio.
>>
I almost certainly missed the joke (again :-), but I would rather do:
disk/kfscmd halt
Ctl+Alt+Del
(switch it off)
BTW, I was impressed by the Plan 9's GUI when I first saw it.....no, I'm not a hacker or a programmer, see below.
However, I like it for the sake it is minimalistic, yet powerful....no unnecessary bells and whistles (except of being so much colourful).
Nevertheless, it is not GUI, what is central to this OS. _It is a clean concept_.
Unfortunately, I am a newbie, thus not being the proper person even for intro. However, here are the reasons that
convinced me (personally) to prepare to switch to Plan 9:
* clean design, AFAI can tell, no backward compatibility bloat,
* small graphic lib and windowing sys instead of dinosaur X,
* unicode,
* minimalistic, yet powerful GUI (believe me, or not)
* system-wide snarf buffer (but see sam)
(yes, and the fact that Plan 9 is being made by the fathers of Unix sounds like warranty, at least to me).
Although I am capable of doing some C programming, I would classify myself as a user. Yes, and I know the OS called "Windoze"
and it's notepad.exe with its "File is too large to be opened by Notepad..." message. I have 15+ years experience of using
computers, and I have wasted _A LOT_ of time swithching among OSes:
HP programmable calculator in early 80's --> Z80 based computer ---> CP/M --> DOS --> Windows, MacOS --> NEXTSTEP -->
Linux --> (gnu/hurd/mach ... L4Linux on L4Ka .... dreaming of berlin/hurd/L4 would once become true) --> Plan 9.
Please, delay erasing of Plan 9 from your computer, and try to dive deeper.
Good luck, and have a nice day,
Peter.
--
Peter A Cejchan
biologist
Acad. Sci., Prague, CZ
<cej at cejchan dot gli dot cas dot cz>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-14 12:45 ` pac
@ 2001-08-15 8:34 ` Eric de Redelijkheid
2001-08-16 0:59 ` Micah Stetson
2001-08-16 8:28 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
[not found] ` <200108151619.MAA07420@augusta.math.psu.edu>
1 sibling, 2 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Eric de Redelijkheid @ 2001-08-15 8:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
pac wrote:
>>>On Tue, Aug 14, 2001 at 11:02:47AM +0100, nigel@9fs.org wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>btw: is there a shutdown command or do I just switch my laptop of?
>>>>>>
>>>>I'd just switch it off.
>>>>
>>>Amen. Lucio.
>>>
>
>I almost certainly missed the joke (again :-), but I would rather do:
>
> disk/kfscmd halt
> Ctl+Alt+Del
> (switch it off)
>
This procedure is absurd. What is wrong with a command like ' shutdown'.
Why not a button for a system shutdown? Or a whole sentence: ' please,
shutdown the system for power down'. What is the excuse for making a
simple task difficult to execute?
>
>
>BTW, I was impressed by the Plan 9's GUI when I first saw it.....no, I'm not a hacker or a programmer, see below.
>However, I like it for the sake it is minimalistic, yet powerful....no unnecessary bells and whistles (except of being so much colourful).
>Nevertheless, it is not GUI, what is central to this OS. _It is a clean concept_.
>
>Unfortunately, I am a newbie, thus not being the proper person even for intro. However, here are the reasons that
>convinced me (personally) to prepare to switch to Plan 9:
>
>* clean design, AFAI can tell, no backward compatibility bloat,
>* small graphic lib and windowing sys instead of dinosaur X,
>* unicode,
>* minimalistic, yet powerful GUI (believe me, or not)
>* system-wide snarf buffer (but see sam)
>(yes, and the fact that Plan 9 is being made by the fathers of Unix sounds like warranty, at least to me).
>
What is a snarf? Should an ordinairy user like me concern myself with
words I can't find in the dictionary (if it is a word in a dictionary, I
have a very cheap one). The fact that it is made by the same people as
UNIX tells you nothing about interface design. The existence the old
style man pages are an indication.
>
>
>Although I am capable of doing some C programming, I would classify myself as a user. Yes, and I know the OS called "Windoze"
>and it's notepad.exe with its "File is too large to be opened by Notepad..." message. I have 15+ years experience of using
>computers, and I have wasted _A LOT_ of time swithching among OSes:
>
I do not need a manual for notepad.exe. I should not need a manual for a
simple task as changing the contents of a text file. I can not work with
sam or acme. In linux, I can hardly work with vi; I only use the very
basic commands like i-nsert, a-ppend, ESC, w-rite, q-uit. Thank god that
I can use the backspace key in editing mode, to erase a character. I
refuse to work with emacs.
>
> HP programmable calculator in early 80's --> Z80 based computer ---> CP/M --> DOS --> Windows, MacOS --> NEXTSTEP -->
>Linux --> (gnu/hurd/mach ... L4Linux on L4Ka .... dreaming of berlin/hurd/L4 would once become true) --> Plan 9.
>
>Please, delay erasing of Plan 9 from your computer, and try to dive deeper.
>Good luck, and have a nice day,
>Peter.
>
>--
>Peter A Cejchan
>biologist
>Acad. Sci., Prague, CZ
><cej at cejchan dot gli dot cas dot cz>
>
A user interface is more then just the GUI. Functions of the computer
and programs should, in my opinion, be instinctively understood by the
user. This is not the case with this GUI as a whole, programs like acme
and sam or the man pages. (Please, can't we get rid of those?)
Take the GUI for instance. Click on the desktop with your right
mouse-button. A pop-up screen apears saying (among others) 'New'.
New?... New what? A new file? A new car? A new job? A new wife?
Select this 'new' whatever and the arrow changes to a cross.
Instinctively I click (left button) this cross, hoping something would
happen. Unfortunaly the cross changes back to an arrow.
Only by fooling around a bit, I found out I can change this cross into a
terminal window, by using the left mouse button and dragging this cross
to a terminal window.
A better aproach in my opinion would be:
- In the pop-up menu say: 'new shell', ' new prompt', 'new window'
instead of just 'New'
- By selecting this 'New.........' , let a window appear with a standard
size immediately. Resizing can be done afterwards.
Without a good and simple easy to use user interface, plan 9 will never
be adopted. And the whole effort would have been a pointless exercise.
As far as a user is concerned the entire computer is the user interface.
Only technicly skilled people (those that we call nerds) can appriciate
what is under the hood.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-15 8:34 ` Eric de Redelijkheid
@ 2001-08-16 0:59 ` Micah Stetson
2001-08-15 23:25 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-16 8:28 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
1 sibling, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Micah Stetson @ 2001-08-16 0:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> user. This is not the case with this GUI as a whole, programs like acme
> and sam or the man pages. (Please, can't we get rid of those?)
Personally, I find the manual pages better reading
and certainly more helpful than anything I've found in
the Windows help system. They are also, in my opinion,
easier to use than the GNU Info system. Hypertext is fine.
But if you are willing to read, and the documentation is
fairly well written, it's just another unnecessary layer
of complexity. Of course, if you learn to use acme, the
plain old manual pages work almost like hypertext anyway.
But really, after criticizing the majority of the
user interface and telling us that you don't desire
to appreciate anything deeper, what drives you to use
Plan 9? I mean, if you feel a real urge to use Notepad for
day-to-day text editing, by all means install one of the
"more advanced" operating systems that incorporate that
ground-breaking technology.
For most people, "user friendly" is defined by what
they're accustomed to using. If you're accustomed to
the user interface philosophy of Windows, Macintosh, CDE,
KDE, GNOME or any of that family, and you're unwilling to
change completely the way you work with your computer,
then Plan 9 will never appeal to you. However, most
of us on this list feel that a little time invested in
learning to use Plan 9's interfaces is more than payed off
by the productivity gains over less powerful interfaces.
In fact, after a few weeks of using rio, sam and acme,
I began to view many of the interfaces I had thought
friendly as almost user hostile. But you have a right to
a different opinion. Use what you want to use.
Micah Stetson
"Calvin, go do something you hate; being miserable builds
character." -- Calvin & Hobbes
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-15 8:34 ` Eric de Redelijkheid
2001-08-16 0:59 ` Micah Stetson
@ 2001-08-16 8:28 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
1 sibling, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Douglas A. Gwyn @ 2001-08-16 8:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Eric de Redelijkheid wrote:
> > disk/kfscmd halt
> > Ctl+Alt+Del
> > (switch it off)
> This procedure is absurd. What is wrong with a command like ' shutdown'.
All you have to do is put "disk/kfscmd halt" into an rc file "shutdown".
Mine is called "halt", which is about as much an improvement to your
suggestion as your suggestion is to the "hard way".
> Why not a button for a system shutdown?
Why should there be one? That leads to a myriad of buttons for all
sorts of trivial things, which is *not* good user interface design.
> Or a whole sentence: ' please, shutdown the system for power down'.
"Open the pod bay doors, Hal."
"I'm sorry, I can't do that, Dave. You didn't say 'please'."
> What is a snarf? Should an ordinairy user like me concern myself with
> words I can't find in the dictionary (if it is a word in a dictionary, I
> have a very cheap one). The fact that it is made by the same people as
> UNIX tells you nothing about interface design. The existence the old
> style man pages are an indication.
UNIX-style man pages, properly used, are a very effective means of
organizing and presenting usage information.
> ... I can not work with sam or acme. In linux, I can hardly work with vi;
> ... I refuse to work with emacs.
Then please go away. Plan 9, like UNIX, is for tool users, not
barbarians.
> Instinctively I click (left button) this cross, ...
Read the instructions.
There is *no* window manager in general use that is "intuitive"; if
you think there is, it's only because it is similar to some other WM
with which you already have some familiarity.
> Without a good and simple easy to use user interface, plan 9 will never
> be adopted. And the whole effort would have been a pointless exercise.
Adopted by whom? You don't seem to understand the point of the
exercise.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <200108151619.MAA07420@augusta.math.psu.edu>]
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
[not found] ` <200108151619.MAA07420@augusta.math.psu.edu>
@ 2001-08-16 8:28 ` Eric de Redelijkheid
2001-08-16 10:26 ` Re[2]: " Matt
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Eric de Redelijkheid @ 2001-08-16 8:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Dan Cross wrote:
>In article <3B793F22.5080707@xs4all.nl> you write:
>
>>This procedure is absurd. [...]
>>
>
>Rather, your behavior is absurd.
>
>Let me get this straight; you use a piece of software, but with
>pre-conceived notions about how it should work. When it's borne out
>that those notions don't mesh with the reality the software presents,
>you complain about and insult the software?
>
>And this makes sense to you?
>
More sense than making this piece of crap and then blaming users if they
don't appreciate it? I think insults can work out in two way's. Either
the software designers come up with something better, or there will be
nothing left to insult.
>
>
>I mean, not to be rude or anything, but this sounds more like your
>issue than Plan 9's.
>
>All I can really say is, well, if notepad.exe works for you, stick with
>it. Why you bothering to change? What's your motivation? If you're
>not going to attempt to learn a new way of doing things, and it sounds
>like you're not, you should probably just stick with what you know.
>
I am very willing to learn new things. This OS, however does not invite
a me to learn about it. For your information I finally figured how to
operate 'acme' and 'sam' and I still think it is stinks. It won't be
long before I wipe my harddisk. I am thinking of trying beos instead. My
motivation is not to put up with any illconceived idea about how a
computer should be operated.
>
>
>On a personal note, I really like Plan 9. It's a lot like a breath of
>fresh air for me; but then I like to think that I'm able to appreciate
>the new ideas that went into it, which took me quite a long time before
>I was able to do. Maybe Dennis Ritchie and Rob Pike don't appreciate
>my humor about 1200 baud modems (:-p), but they do know a thing or two
>about how to write operating systems.
>
These new ideas won't mean a thing if you can't get ordinary human
beings to work with it. And knowing a thing or two about operating
systems, does not mean they know anything about how someone in the real
world would want to use a computer.
>
>Hmm, maybe it's that stuff they sell in Amsterdam....
>
You could not point the place on a map if you wanted to. What are your
hobbies besides computing and shooting strangers of your farm?
>
>
>Oh, one other thing: I don't think the `goal' of Plan 9 was wide-spread
>acceptance. It was built to meet the needs of the people who built
>it. There's nothing wrong with that, and it certainly wasn't a waste
>of time. This can be seen empirically by the fact that they've used it
>for years to get real work done. To the extent that it's provided a
>new way of looking at things, I think it's been rather successful as a
>research endeavour, too. Don't make the mistake of assuming that every
>piece of software needs to be written for a mass-audience of millions
>in order to be successful or useful.
>
Then why is it for sale? To hurt users? If it is just an excercise in
building a distributed operating system, why let it out of the lab?
>
>
>That's all I'll say on the issue; I have no real desire to participate
>in a flame war over opinions on user interface issues.
>
> - Dan C.
>
And I don't want to hear excuses like: if a user can't operate our
software, we are not to blame; this user must be stupid, or: I can
operate this software, so logicly if I can, anyone can.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-16 8:28 ` Eric de Redelijkheid
@ 2001-08-16 10:26 ` Matt
2001-08-16 10:43 ` Eric de Redelijkheid
2001-08-16 19:29 ` Steve Kilbane
2001-08-17 8:49 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Matt @ 2001-08-16 10:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans; +Cc: Eric de Redelijkheid
EdR> More sense than making this piece of crap and then blaming users if they
EdR> don't appreciate it?
hehe wake up, time to die
Eric de Redelijkheid <ericdere@xs4all.nl> University of Bath Computing Services, UK
explains it all
probably a Comp. Sci. student
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-16 10:26 ` Re[2]: " Matt
@ 2001-08-16 10:43 ` Eric de Redelijkheid
0 siblings, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Eric de Redelijkheid @ 2001-08-16 10:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Matt; +Cc: 9fans
Matt wrote:
>EdR> More sense than making this piece of crap and then blaming users if they
>EdR> don't appreciate it?
>hehe wake up, time to die
>
>
>Eric de Redelijkheid <ericdere@xs4all.nl> University of Bath Computing Services, UK
>
>explains it all
>
>probably a Comp. Sci. student
>
>
>
eh?
don't let the message source from a moderated newsgroup confuse you.
Here's the original header I sent. No organisation.
From - Wed Aug 15 19:29:43 2001
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Message-ID: <3B7AB184.3030106@xs4all.nl>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 19:29:40 +0200
From: Eric de Redelijkheid <ericdere@xs4all.nl>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.3) Gecko/20010801
X-Accept-Language: nl, en-us
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.os.plan9
Subject: Re: [9fans] User Interface
References: <20010814122734.A24734@cackle.proxima.alt.za> <cej-1010814144547.A02246@cejchan.gli.cas.cz> <200108151619.MAA07420@augusta.math.psu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-16 8:28 ` Eric de Redelijkheid
2001-08-16 10:26 ` Re[2]: " Matt
@ 2001-08-16 19:29 ` Steve Kilbane
2001-08-16 20:40 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-17 8:50 ` mark powers
2001-08-17 8:49 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2 siblings, 2 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Steve Kilbane @ 2001-08-16 19:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> More sense than making this piece of crap and then blaming users if they
> don't appreciate it?
Not so. If it's not appreciated, fine. If you don't like it, fine. If you
disagree with it, then a discussion is always appreciated. Insulting it
because you can't be bothered to think is a different matter.
> I think insults can work out in two way's. Either
> the software designers come up with something better, or there will be
> nothing left to insult.
Insults don't help. Destructive criticism isn't useful. Constructive
criticism is.
> I am very willing to learn new things. This OS, however does not invite
> a me to learn about it.
Why not? What is it that's missing, that would "invite" you to learn?
Most of us started with the published papers. (Anyone out there using
Plan 9 who *didn't* devour all the papers first chance they got?)
> For your information I finally figured how to
> operate 'acme' and 'sam' and I still think it is stinks.
It's an opinion. Could do with some justification, though.
> My
> motivation is not to put up with any illconceived idea about how a
> computer should be operated.
And yet, your first example was notepad?
> These new ideas won't mean a thing if you can't get ordinary human
> beings to work with it.
Sorry? You apparently have missed the "Research" part of Plan 9's
origins.
> Then why is it for sale? To hurt users? If it is just an excercise in
> building a distributed operating system, why let it out of the lab?
Because people in this forum begged them to. Because the papers were
published, demonstrating new ways of assembling and using a system, and
enough people liked those ways enough to want to use them.
> And I don't want to hear excuses like: if a user can't operate our
> software, we are not to blame; this user must be stupid, or: I can
> operate this software, so logicly if I can, anyone can.
Then don't hear them. No-one's forcing you to read this, just as no-one's
forcing you to use Plan 9. If it's not for you, fine: go use something
else with our blessing. Maybe you'll find something that suits you. Stay
around and discuss things calmly and rationally, if you like, but please
don't just hang around to whine. It does no-one any good.
steve
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-16 19:29 ` Steve Kilbane
@ 2001-08-16 20:40 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-17 8:50 ` mark powers
1 sibling, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-08-16 20:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
what we've got here is failure to communicate [pure research].
some men, you just can't reach...
so, you get what we had last week
which is they way he wants it!
well, he gets it!
n' i don't like it any more than you men.
-- strother p. martin, _cool hand luke_
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-16 19:29 ` Steve Kilbane
2001-08-16 20:40 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-08-17 8:50 ` mark powers
1 sibling, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: mark powers @ 2001-08-17 8:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
in article <200108161929.UAA31601@localhost.localdomain>,
Steve Kilbane <9fans@cse.psu.edu> sez ...
>Most of us started with the published papers. (Anyone out there using
>Plan 9 who *didn't* devour all the papers first chance they got?)
as an aside, I suspect there are also at least a few of us who've come
to find rc + sam + 9wm indispensable on Unix even without (yet) having
experienced the full glory of the real thing...
p.s. cheers and hats off to all, from a largely non-technical user (yes,
we exist!).
--
-mp ``between thought and expression lies a lifetime''
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-16 8:28 ` Eric de Redelijkheid
2001-08-16 10:26 ` Re[2]: " Matt
2001-08-16 19:29 ` Steve Kilbane
@ 2001-08-17 8:49 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2 siblings, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Douglas A. Gwyn @ 2001-08-17 8:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Eric de Redelijkheid wrote:
> Then why is it for sale? To hurt users? If it is just an excercise in
> building a distributed operating system, why let it out of the lab?
So that people who can appreciate it have the opportunity to
experiment with it.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
@ 2001-08-14 16:53 forsyth
0 siblings, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: forsyth @ 2001-08-14 16:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>>Why is there not just one single command to create a new user, but do I
>>need first to make the file /adm/users writable, edit this file (with
>>more luck then wisdom), and type in at least three different commands.
see kfscmd(8), particularly disk/kfscmd 'newuser fred', or a similar
command in fs(8) for the real file server.
it's true you then need to log in as the user and rc /sys/lib/newuser
because there correctly is no super user.
>>btw: is there a shutdown command or do I just switch my laptop of?
be sure to do disk/kfscmd halt
first
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
@ 2001-08-14 17:13 anothy
2001-08-15 17:06 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: anothy @ 2001-08-14 17:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
// ...I have never seen a more awkward user interface since twm.
i'm not sure how much of this to attribute to lack of familiarity and how
much to simple personal preference. the GUI is definatly stylistically very
different from any i've seen from any other lineage (X, MS, Mac, etc).
but it is, in my mind, what a UI should be: exactly enough to facilitate
you doing your work, without getting in your way or distracting you.
// ...sam and acme are virtually unusable. Why is it that such a simple
// task as editing the contents of a textfile must cause so much pain?
what specifically is your complaint? i've found sam very easy to learn,
and have taught it to several non-Plan9 (even some non-techie) folks,
with good results. acme is a bit more learning, it's true, but you get a
bunch more out of it (IMHO). and _certainly_ either one gives much
more than any Win32 editor i've seen (well, except sam ☺).
// Why is there not just one single command to create a new user...
if this is a big issue, it's quite easy to script. the commands are both
consistant and simple. the seperation comes, basically, from the fact
that you're really doing seperate operations: adding the user to the
auth database, then adding the user to the file server. both arn't
technically required, although normal operation requires them.
again, the point here is that the commands are simple enough so that
if them being seperate is an issue, you can easialy script them into
something appropriate for your site or installation.
// In my opinion every task performed on a computer [...] should be
// done with the aid of a simple, intuitive, point- and- click, graphical
// user interface.
well, here it just sounds like we're at a philosophical diference. the plan
9 community tends strongly to believe that there are many tasks that
are ill-suited to GUI interaction, and are much more efficiently done
via CLI and scripted interfaces. administrative tasks, as in the examples
provided by other responses, are probably the clearest examples, but
others abound.
i'm also reminded of a quote i read somewhere but can't place:
"The only 'intuitive' interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned."
-α.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
@ 2001-08-14 17:58 bwc
2001-08-14 19:09 ` andrey mirtchovski
0 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: bwc @ 2001-08-14 17:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
This thread reminds me of the comment, that someone who complains
about Shakespeare is saying a lot . . . about themselves.
Brantley Coile
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-14 17:58 bwc
@ 2001-08-14 19:09 ` andrey mirtchovski
0 siblings, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: andrey mirtchovski @ 2001-08-14 19:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
nah, it's not obligatory for anyone to like shakespeare, however it's
universally accepted that his works are better than, say, vogon poetry.
ditto for p9 editors and GUI :)
andrey
On Tue, 14 Aug 2001 bwc@borf.com wrote:
> This thread reminds me of the comment, that someone who complains
> about Shakespeare is saying a lot . . . about themselves.
>
> Brantley Coile
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
@ 2001-08-15 12:46 rob pike
2001-08-15 16:35 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: rob pike @ 2001-08-15 12:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
to: eric.de.redelijkheid@xs4all.nl
I refuse to move to the Netherlands. Why can't they learn to talk without
those gaggy throat-clearing noises? The rest of the world lives without
them; why can't they? What possible benefit can they be? Forget it. Japan
is out of the question; what fools having such an incomprehensible writing
system! Nothing interesting will ever happen there, either.
English is so obviously the way to go, so easy to learn a child can pick it
up. Why can't everyone just adopt it and be done? Get with the program,
people!
-rob
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
@ 2001-08-15 13:27 Peter Bosch
0 siblings, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Peter Bosch @ 2001-08-15 13:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> refuse to move to the Netherlands. Why can't they learn to talk without
> those gaggy throat-clearing noises? The rest of the world lives without
Gee, I believe that sound also exists in Spanish.
peter.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
@ 2001-08-15 14:20 bwc
2001-08-15 17:13 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: bwc @ 2001-08-15 14:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 110 bytes --]
I think the Japanese will emerge triumphant in GUI's.
They already have Icons for everything!
Brantley
[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1647 bytes --]
From: "rob pike" <rob@plan9.bell-labs.com>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] User Interface
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 08:46:38 -0400
Message-ID: <20010815124836.0FFB8199E7@mail.cse.psu.edu>
to: eric.de.redelijkheid@xs4all.nl
I refuse to move to the Netherlands. Why can't they learn to talk without
those gaggy throat-clearing noises? The rest of the world lives without
them; why can't they? What possible benefit can they be? Forget it. Japan
is out of the question; what fools having such an incomprehensible writing
system! Nothing interesting will ever happen there, either.
English is so obviously the way to go, so easy to learn a child can pick it
up. Why can't everyone just adopt it and be done? Get with the program,
people!
-rob
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
@ 2001-08-16 1:00 okamoto
2001-08-16 5:56 ` Fariborz 'Skip' Tavakkolian
0 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: okamoto @ 2001-08-16 1:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
>Japan
>is out of the question; what fools having such an incomprehensible writing
>system!
How incomprehensive is the Japanese writing system?
>Nothing interesting will ever happen there, either.
Well said!! You must be a god.
Kenji
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-16 1:00 okamoto
@ 2001-08-16 5:56 ` Fariborz 'Skip' Tavakkolian
0 siblings, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Fariborz 'Skip' Tavakkolian @ 2001-08-16 5:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
rob was being sarcastic in response to another person's rant. He has
employed a
"disproof by way of an absurd analogy" method to disprove the other
person's assertions :)
At 10:00 AM 8/16/2001 +0900, okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp wrote:
>>Japan
>>is out of the question; what fools having such an incomprehensible writing
>>system!
>
>How incomprehensive is the Japanese writing system?
>
>>Nothing interesting will ever happen there, either.
>
>Well said!! You must be a god.
>
>Kenji
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
@ 2001-08-17 11:17 forsyth
0 siblings, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: forsyth @ 2001-08-17 11:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 58 bytes --]
and furthermore people can and do use it commercially.
[-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1884 bytes --]
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] User Interface
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 08:49:13 GMT
Message-ID: <3B7C28BA.B7FA8D2F@null.net>
Eric de Redelijkheid wrote:
> Then why is it for sale? To hurt users? If it is just an excercise in
> building a distributed operating system, why let it out of the lab?
So that people who can appreciate it have the opportunity to
experiment with it.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: Re[2]: [9fans] User Interface
@ 2001-08-20 15:02 anothy
2001-08-22 21:25 ` Matthew Hannigan
0 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: anothy @ 2001-08-20 15:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
// I keep hearing this, and it's pithy, no doubt, but I don't really buy it.
// Talk to a lactation consultant sometime. People (mothers and infants)
// still have problems. Newborns have the instinct to suck, but both mother
// and child still need to be taught how to properly latch on (yes, that's
// a technical term).
maybe just further support for the nipple claim? the nipple's intuitive, as
you say most infants have the suck instinct, but maybe it's the breast that's
problematic? if we can't move even _that_ far past the nipple, how do we
expect to come up with an intuitive GUI? ☺
i've tried hard to keep the following consice.
i've shown plan 9 to a number of non-techie (no CS or non-M$/Mac
background) people. results have been, on the whole, favorable. shell stuff
takes a bit of explaining (wildcards and >|< I/O redirection, mainly), but
once that and a few other principles have been learned, most people seem
quite able to build up from there, with only casual coaching. consistant
application of those basic principles is what makes this so.
i'd say that perhaps while the Mac interface was designed to reduce time to
usability, the plan 9 interface reduces time to proficency. the basic principles
take time to learn, but once they are learned, a lot of power can be derived
from them.
i didn't learn plan 9 from the manuals; rather i just mucked around with it.
with my extant unix background, i found it the easiest system to learn i've
found. this was possible only because the basic principles i learned are
consistantly applicable throughout.
when i did sit down and read the manuals cover-to-cover, i still learned
loads of stuff i didn't know, and found loads of stuff i didn't know existed. it
was easy to incorporate because the principles were applied consistantly.
i need a manual for notepad.exe. i don't have a clue what's under the various
top-level menu boxes. hell, if i'd not used M$ before, i wouldn't even know
they're pull downs.
i've found the plan 9 man pages, used in conjunction with lookman, grep,
and acme, the most efficient and comprehensive help system i've used. these
feelings are echoed by many of the above mentioned folks.
i think the ½ required to start the wm was a good idea - it required people to
at least read _something_ before getting started.
lots of "ordinary human beings" work with it. i don't make the mistake of
thinking that folks who don't understand the system are stupid, but i do tend
to think perhaps they havn't given much time to learning it. please don't make
the mistake of thinking that since you don't understand it, the authors are
stupid. thanks,
-α.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-20 15:02 Re[2]: " anothy
@ 2001-08-22 21:25 ` Matthew Hannigan
2001-08-23 2:24 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Matthew Hannigan @ 2001-08-22 21:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
anothy@cosym.net wrote in part
> ...
> i've shown plan 9 to a number of non-techie (no CS or non-M$/Mac
> background) people. results have been, on the whole, favorable.
> ...
yes, "shown" -- the power of a demo is rather underestimated. I learnt
unix from the ref manuals, but I stuck to ed. vi baffled me. What the
hell is that column of tildes about?!) But when I saw some fly through
editing jobs it won me over.
I think a little video or even animated gif of someone doing
something with acme or sam would go a hell of a long way.
Me, I'm stuck with a mouse which refuses to yield any sort
of middle button click, dammit.
-Matt
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-22 21:25 ` Matthew Hannigan
@ 2001-08-23 2:24 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-23 15:04 ` Dan Cross
0 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-08-23 2:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> What the hell is that column of tildes about?!)
that's nothing. you should check out how it implements
the ~ command. it sort of explains why you can't type 10~
well, you can type it, but it doesn't work as you would expect.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-23 2:24 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-08-23 15:04 ` Dan Cross
2001-08-23 20:17 ` Boyd Roberts
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-08-23 15:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
In article <047001c12b7a$c075e1c0$3cf7c6d4@SOMA> you write:
>> What the hell is that column of tildes about?!)
>
>that's nothing. you should check out how it implements
>the ~ command. it sort of explains why you can't type 10~
>well, you can type it, but it doesn't work as you would expect.
What, you mean not everyone wants to toggle the case of a single
letter 10 times in a row, automatically? You know, if you did
it an odd number of times, the case would actually change. Isn't
that what you want to do? :-)
- Dan C.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-23 15:04 ` Dan Cross
@ 2001-08-23 20:17 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-23 20:17 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-23 20:17 ` Boyd Roberts
2 siblings, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-08-23 20:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> What, you mean not everyone wants to toggle the case of a single
> letter 10 times in a row, automatically? You know, if you did
> it an odd number of times, the case would actually change. Isn't
> that what you want to do? :-)
hang on dan, ~ moves you one char to the right. think about 10dd
the implementation of ~ was to peek at the character you're sitting
on and then push back on input:
rCl
where C is the character in the other case. the count gets lost due
to the 'loop' and the pushback iirc.
what a hideous disaster. goto fonfon ...
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-23 15:04 ` Dan Cross
2001-08-23 20:17 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-08-23 20:17 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-23 21:35 ` Dan Cross
2001-08-24 13:04 ` David Lukes
2001-08-23 20:17 ` Boyd Roberts
2 siblings, 2 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-08-23 20:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> What, you mean not everyone wants to toggle the case of a single
> letter 10 times in a row, automatically? You know, if you did
> it an odd number of times, the case would actually change. Isn't
> that what you want to do? :-)
hang on dan, ~ moves you one char to the right. think about 10dd
the implementation of ~ was to peek at the character you're sitting
on and then push back on input:
rCl
where C is the character in the other case. the count gets lost due
to the 'loop' and the pushback iirc.
what a hideous disaster. goto fonfon ...
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-23 20:17 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-08-23 21:35 ` Dan Cross
2001-08-23 21:49 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-24 13:04 ` David Lukes
1 sibling, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2001-08-23 21:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
In article <053701c12c10$b0395210$3cf7c6d4@SOMA> you write:
>hang on dan, ~ moves you one char to the right. think about 10dd
>
>the implementation of ~ was to peek at the character you're sitting
>on and then push back on input:
>
> rCl
>
>where C is the character in the other case. the count gets lost due
>to the 'loop' and the pushback iirc.
>
>what a hideous disaster. goto fonfon ...
Whoops, you are correct, Boyd. I just logged into a VAX running
4.3BSD, and saw that happen (oddly enough, there's one at CMU you can
login to as guest. Who knew?).
However, it looks like newer versions of vi fix the problem. On my
FreeBSD machine at work, 10~ does the right thing [sic], and similarly
on the Sun I'm sending this mail from.
I'll agree though; a purely modal editor is just, well, weird.
- Dan C.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-23 21:35 ` Dan Cross
@ 2001-08-23 21:49 ` Boyd Roberts
0 siblings, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-08-23 21:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> Whoops, you are correct, Boyd. I just logged into a VAX running
> 4.3BSD, and saw that happen (oddly enough, there's one at CMU you can
> login to as guest. Who knew?).
i was always referring to the original code. i think i only read
it 'cos i wanted to know why it was so broken. i don't think i
ever hacked it. reading the main loop was more than enough.
i see my dumb cable provider managed to send my reply 3 times.
> However, it looks like newer versions of vi fix the problem.
you fix that problem with rm(1).
> I'll agree though; a purely modal editor is just, well, weird.
no, a purely broken editor is, well, a piece of junk.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-23 20:17 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-23 21:35 ` Dan Cross
@ 2001-08-24 13:04 ` David Lukes
1 sibling, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: David Lukes @ 2001-08-24 13:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
(Yes, I know this is OT,
but there's a serious underlying point.)
> the implementation of ~ was to peek at the character you're sitting
> on and then push back on input:
>
> rCl
>
> where C is the character in the other case. the count gets lost due
> to the 'loop' and the pushback iirc.
It's worse than that, Jim:
in later versions they hacked in a fixed length local buffer and ...
(you can guess the rest).
The serious point is that editors shouldn't do stuff like translation:
that's much better left to specialised external utilities and
smooth interfaces to use them from the editor.
Cheers,
Dave.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
2001-08-23 15:04 ` Dan Cross
2001-08-23 20:17 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-23 20:17 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2001-08-23 20:17 ` Boyd Roberts
2 siblings, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2001-08-23 20:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
> What, you mean not everyone wants to toggle the case of a single
> letter 10 times in a row, automatically? You know, if you did
> it an odd number of times, the case would actually change. Isn't
> that what you want to do? :-)
hang on dan, ~ moves you one char to the right. think about 10dd
the implementation of ~ was to peek at the character you're sitting
on and then push back on input:
rCl
where C is the character in the other case. the count gets lost due
to the 'loop' and the pushback iirc.
what a hideous disaster. goto fonfon ...
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] User Interface
@ 2001-08-23 15:35 Vincent van Gelderen
0 siblings, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Vincent van Gelderen @ 2001-08-23 15:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Dan Cross wrote:
> In article <047001c12b7a$c075e1c0$3cf7c6d4@SOMA> you write:
> >> What the hell is that column of tildes about?!)
> >
> >that's nothing. you should check out how it implements
> >the ~ command. it sort of explains why you can't type 10~
> >well, you can type it, but it doesn't work as you would expect.
>
> What, you mean not everyone wants to toggle the case of a single
> letter 10 times in a row, automatically? You know, if you did
> it an odd number of times, the case would actually change. Isn't
> that what you want to do? :-)
>
> - Dan C.
>
Oh, but I have to have that functionality, I use it
to benchmark the vi on my system. The mersenne primes
are good for this. Compulsive clickers may like to
visit:
http://drunkmenworkhere.org/43.php?n=7&f=1
OT? Maybe.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9
@ 2001-10-25 17:55 Russ Cox
2001-10-25 18:29 ` William Josephson
0 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Russ Cox @ 2001-10-25 17:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Could you please recommend me a reading on both architectures to
understand differences between them. I read here that BSD paging has
some drawbacks to AT&T one (used in Plan9). And I want to make this
clear for myself.
The discussions here were talking about many-years-old
systems. I don't think anyone even mentioned Plan 9's VM system,
which is just about the simplest thing you could imagine.
The BSDs have oodles more ``features.'' I'd look in
www.researchindex.com for the latest stuff, and in McKusick et al.
(Design and Implementation of the 4.4BSD OS) for older stuff.
You can decide for yourself whether Plan 9 needs any of it.
Russ
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9
2001-10-25 17:55 [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9 Russ Cox
@ 2001-10-25 18:29 ` William Josephson
2001-10-26 8:09 ` [9fans] acme bug/annoyance? Matt
2001-10-29 10:16 ` [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9 John S. Dyson
0 siblings, 2 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: William Josephson @ 2001-10-25 18:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 01:55:25PM -0400, Russ Cox wrote:
> The discussions here were talking about many-years-old
> systems. I don't think anyone even mentioned Plan 9's VM system,
> which is just about the simplest thing you could imagine.
> The BSDs have oodles more ``features.'' I'd look in
> www.researchindex.com for the latest stuff, and in McKusick et al.
> (Design and Implementation of the 4.4BSD OS) for older stuff.
> You can decide for yourself whether Plan 9 needs any of it.
You probably want to take a look at Charles Cranor's PHd thesis from
Washington on UVM. If I recall correctly, some of the *BSDs (NetBSD,
FreeBSD?) have picked it up or at least borrowed ideas.
-WJ
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* [9fans] acme bug/annoyance?
2001-10-25 18:29 ` William Josephson
@ 2001-10-26 8:09 ` Matt
2001-10-26 11:36 ` rob pike
2001-10-29 10:16 ` [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9 John S. Dyson
1 sibling, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Matt @ 2001-10-26 8:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Hi,
I just started a new instance of Acme
typed some code in an empty yellow window which was a directory
listing of an empty directory, I'd put the filename in the titlebar
but not saved the file.
All was going well until I resized the column and lost all my typing.
Not the end of the world but not very user friendly either.
An instance of where DWIM would win over "you have to have the text in
a file already, stupid"
Matt
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] acme bug/annoyance?
2001-10-26 8:09 ` [9fans] acme bug/annoyance? Matt
@ 2001-10-26 11:36 ` rob pike
2001-10-26 14:43 ` Scott Schwartz
0 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: rob pike @ 2001-10-26 11:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
A nasty problem here. When you resize a directory window, acme should recolumnate
the output, but I couldn't see how to get that right while keeping the user's text, so I
just started over. A directory window is therefore a kind of scratch typing space, which
is actually a feature I like but is clearly a consequence of, rather than integral to, the design.
I suppose the documentation should mention this.
-rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Matt <matt@proweb.co.uk>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 4:09 AM
Subject: [9fans] acme bug/annoyance?
> Hi,
>
> I just started a new instance of Acme
>
> typed some code in an empty yellow window which was a directory
> listing of an empty directory, I'd put the filename in the titlebar
> but not saved the file.
>
> All was going well until I resized the column and lost all my typing.
>
> Not the end of the world but not very user friendly either.
>
> An instance of where DWIM would win over "you have to have the text in
> a file already, stupid"
>
> Matt
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9
2001-10-25 18:29 ` William Josephson
2001-10-26 8:09 ` [9fans] acme bug/annoyance? Matt
@ 2001-10-29 10:16 ` John S. Dyson
1 sibling, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: John S. Dyson @ 2001-10-29 10:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
wkj-despam@eecs.harvard.edu (William Josephson) wrote in message news:<20011025142927.B8085@honk.eecs.harvard.edu>...
> On Thu, Oct 25, 2001 at 01:55:25PM -0400, Russ Cox wrote:
> > The discussions here were talking about many-years-old
> > systems. I don't think anyone even mentioned Plan 9's VM system,
> > which is just about the simplest thing you could imagine.
> > The BSDs have oodles more ``features.'' I'd look in
> > www.researchindex.com for the latest stuff, and in McKusick et al.
> > (Design and Implementation of the 4.4BSD OS) for older stuff.
> > You can decide for yourself whether Plan 9 needs any of it.
>
> You probably want to take a look at Charles Cranor's PHd thesis from
> Washington on UVM. If I recall correctly, some of the *BSDs (NetBSD,
> FreeBSD?) have picked it up or at least borrowed ideas.
>
FreeBSD and NetBSD have different VM systems. FreeBSD's (which I
am the primary implementer), is really a corrected and filled out
MACH VM for UNIX. It provides lots of the necessary shortcuts
fully virtualized for the process VM forking and things like that.
The original MACH VM port really wasn't meant as being production
ready (per my discussions with Hibler), but was more of a feasibility
exercise. Even though it wasn't fully made robust in the original
implementations, it wasn't that much worse than many commercial UNIX
VM behaviors.
Probably the biggest difference doesn't occur during 'normal'
memory resident situations, but where FreeBSD has rather advanced
paging stats, and really does put off the thrashfest until the
system doesn't have enough pages to supply an adequate resident
working set. If there is minimally enough memory, FreeBSD will
converge reasonably quickly, without undue thrashing. In my early
experiments, it was very satisfying to hear the system 'calm down'
after experiencing thrashing due to a necessary change in working
set population. Most other systems tended to keep on thrashing
for long periods, even when there was obviously enough memory. The
pseudo-random pagouts and invalidations from non-FreeBSD systems
tended to really screw up the page reference information on memory
segments being used by otherwise runnable processes. The relatively
good behavior has been especially useful when running user-mode
windowing systems, where the blocking from poorly chosen page
invalidations can really stop-up the works.
Both FreeBSD's VM and NetBSD's VM work pretty well (no real complaints
from either party), and most/all of the limitations of the original
MACH VM have been expunged. There were even cases of limitations
that I thought to be unsolvable in the FreeBSD code eventually simply
be an 'exercise in data structures', and the last REAL limitation
due to address space/fork inheritance was remedied as a result of
competition from NetBSD's new VM stuff.
FreeBSDs and NetBSDs code is both adequately portable, and that
should not be a deciding issue. Frankly, the most important deciding
issue is probably based upon knowledge of the VM code that the
individual who might do the port to Plan 9. One might make a
'decision' that the VM shouldn't page anyway (except in odd situations),
and so the relative advantages of the two systems becomes less
important.
My philosophy is based upon the fact that an OS MUST NOT just be a fair
weather friend, and from my rather VM-centered viewpoint, I believe that
this includes the fact that VM shouldn't randomly thrash, when it could
more actively converge to a reasonable working set (when possible.)
If starting from scratch, it is really easy to write some code that
works. However, there is ALOT more work to making a VM system
function under load to maximize availability of CPU cycles. Unfortunately,
it is clear that VM system behavior is almost always a secondary
priority, because it doesn't specify/benchmark very easily.
John
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help
@ 2002-01-20 20:02 Roshan James
2002-01-20 21:01 ` Matt H
` (3 more replies)
0 siblings, 4 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Roshan James @ 2002-01-20 20:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3665 bytes --]
Getting started in Plan9
-------------------------
Its been a little over a week since i got my Plan9 working and
I still seem to be in tourist mode.Lots of questions and
a few suggestions:
(I promise I have tried to answer these for myself before
before I am ask them)
It would be great if we have a school boy style step-by-step
getting-off-the-ground tour of plan9, maybe somewhere in the
wiki. I would be glad to do this, if i knew enough.
Graphics
-----------
- I am working with an S3 Trio 64v2 card, the install floppy
gave me 800*600 res,but after installation i am on 640*480 and
i cant seem to be able to change it
aux/vga -l 800x600x8
gives me
'Warning (BUG) : redefinition of aperture does not change
s3screen segment.'
in a black background in the sentre of the screen and an error
message that reads
'aux/vga: vgactlw: <size 800x600x8 m8>: vga already configured'
in the console window. it is a low end card but I believe that
I did have a higher res through the boot disk so it should be
possible here too. how can i change to a higher res ?
- If plan9 is booted through xosl in 640*480 res,plan9 graphics
display ends up corrupt. the bootloader does switch to text mode
before the OS is booted. anyother resolution or a text mode boot
loader does not seem to have a problem.
The right quarter of the screen (approx) seems to be a duplicate
of the band of the screen display between in the left part. (bad
description i know). Anyway to fix this ?
Acessibility
-------------
- How can I read a couple of html docs in Plan9 ?
- Is there a place where the uses of directories the std file system
heirarchy is discussed, esp /n ?
- /n/c: exists, how can i access the extended partitions ?
- How can i access the floppy a: ? /n/a: exists but shows no files.
- How can i access the extended windows partitions ?
- Problem with accessing C: File operations to /n/c: causes a problem
'%mkdir /n/c:/testdir'
'mkdir: cant create /n/c:/testdir: write to hungup channel'
also a black background error message comes (is there a generic name
for these messages ?)
'dossrv 45: suicide: sys: trap fault read addr=0xb pc=0x00004757'
help ?
Shell
------
- How can I find/search for a file in Plan9 ? the usual find /|grep xxx
does not exist here, what is the equivalent ?
- Why doesnt/Can rc have autocomplete and filename completion as in
bash ? This has become so neccessary.
Keys
-----
- Why cant the left/right arrow keys+home+end keys move the cursor,
it is really difficult to edit something by placing the cursor there
with the mouse.
- Unless is it part of a grander plan (no pun intended), can we move
the process interrupt key from Del to something else and have the
conventional functionality of del back ?
General
-------
- Is the option of plan9 default boot in bootsetup (during install)
safe for other OSes that exist on the system ?
- Why arent there more applications and more developers interested
in developing for plan9 ?
Russ, I think it would kill you to keep answering all the newbie
questions. Russ, Imel, Thanks for all the help you have been. I
think the Plan9 faq needs updation with some of the more generic
questions here. This is a lesson that could learned from the Win32's,
if you want the OS to grow, you have to get people comfortable with
it very fast. I think we can make that happen.
Rosh.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
(Lord of the Rings)
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4834 bytes --]
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help
2002-01-20 20:02 [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help Roshan James
@ 2002-01-20 21:01 ` Matt H
2002-01-20 22:02 ` Scott Schwartz
2002-01-21 10:22 ` Boyd Roberts
2002-01-20 21:03 ` William S.
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 2 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Matt H @ 2002-01-20 21:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Hi,
here's my set of slightly flippant answers
> - How can I read a couple of html docs in Plan9 ?
install inferno and use the netscape 3 hybrid Charon
I bet you can't wait :)
Web browsing it's plan9's end user pitfall.
No browser, not even text only (unless you count downloading & stripping the html tags text only)
> - How can I find/search for a file in Plan9 ? the usual find /|grep xxx
> does not exist here, what is the equivalent ?
du I think is your best bet
it's better still to learn where everything is :)
luckily there aren't 5 different directories where programs hide (well there can be but...)
all the executables show themselves in /bin which is a union of the directories where executables live if you see what I mean. There's aren't that many, have a look through them all, you'll remember easily enough.
> - Why doesnt/Can rc have autocomplete and filename completion as in
> bash ? This has become so neccessary.
yes, well, you see plan9 is more mouse driven. eventually you'll probably end up with Acme as much your "shell" as anything, and you'll find auto complete is unneccessary.
But you're right, it is a nice feature of the bash shell but then there are soooo many goddam directories on a Linux/FreeBSD box and auto complete is Bash's way of trying to alleviate the pain. If you miss it too much I'm sure you could just write a shell script to monitor /dev/cons for tabs, and echo the stuff into /dev/cons.
Personally, I do prefer having the screen as free form is plan9's is. The shell is more than the commands you can type, it's where you can type them.
> - Why cant the left/right arrow keys+home+end keys move the cursor,
> it is really difficult to edit something by placing the cursor there
> with the mouse.
That's what I said and I still get the urge to say it out loud. They told me I'd get used to it and you know what, I haven't. I'd even settle for Ctrl-J. But when I'm sat at a different terminal I still end up saying "I wish I was using Acme".
> - Unless is it part of a grander plan (no pun intended), can we move
> the process interrupt key from Del to something else and have the
> conventional functionality of del back ?
It depends who's conventions.
> - Why arent there more applications and more developers interested
> in developing for plan9 ?
file name completion
> This is a lesson that could learned from the Win32's,
> if you want the OS to grow, you have to get people comfortable with
> it very fast. I think we can make that.
After ten years of Windows I'm not sure people are comfortable with it.
It's clunky, crashes without explanation, brittle to end user fiddling, repeatedly exposes remote root exploits, is expensive, closed source. I need not go on.
> One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
> One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
> (Lord of the Rings)
Arntcha sick of those mobiles phones yet?
Matt
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help
2002-01-20 21:01 ` Matt H
@ 2002-01-20 22:02 ` Scott Schwartz
2002-01-22 9:54 ` ozan s yigit
2002-01-21 10:22 ` Boyd Roberts
1 sibling, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Scott Schwartz @ 2002-01-20 22:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
| yes, well, you see plan9 is more mouse driven. eventually you'll
| probably end up with Acme as much your "shell" as anything, and you'll
| find auto complete is unneccessary.
I think that input prediction, if done well, is a beautiful feature, and
one that would fit very well with acme, or maybe as a kind of plumbing. I
used to use a unix thing called "rk"; a markov chain style thing that
continuously prompted you with a line or two of predicted input. You
used the arrow keys or tab or ctrl-m to accept the next char/word/line
of the prediction. It was uncannily good. A lot of command line stuff is
very repetative, and anyone who's seen Rob's fake usenet postings can
see how good this kind of thing is for email. One of these days I'll
get around to hacking it into acme, maybe.
| > - Unless is it part of a grander plan (no pun intended), can we move
| > the process interrupt key from Del to something else and have the
| > conventional functionality of del back ?
Especially since PC keyboards have an actual "break" key to use.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help
2002-01-20 22:02 ` Scott Schwartz
@ 2002-01-22 9:54 ` ozan s yigit
2002-01-23 10:05 ` Bakul Shah
0 siblings, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: ozan s yigit @ 2002-01-22 9:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu (Scott Schwartz) writes:
> used to use a unix thing called "rk"; a markov chain style thing that
> continuously prompted you with a line or two of predicted input.
it is "reactive keyboard" and i believe was a thesis work at university
of calgary, by Darragh under Witten. i'm sure a web search would still turn
up pointers. there is a book about it, not sure if still in print. the
interface was interesting in trying to accomodate disabled people to
interact with command interfaces by predictive completion.
oz
--
www.cs.yorku.ca/~oz | if you couldn't find any weirdness, maybe
york u. computer science | we'll just have to make some! -- hobbes
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help
2002-01-20 21:01 ` Matt H
2002-01-20 22:02 ` Scott Schwartz
@ 2002-01-21 10:22 ` Boyd Roberts
2002-01-21 10:40 ` John Murdie
1 sibling, 1 reply; 204+ messages in thread
From: Boyd Roberts @ 2002-01-21 10:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Matt H wrote:
> > - Why doesnt/Can rc have autocomplete and filename completion as in
> > bash ? This has become so neccessary.
> yes, well, you see plan9 is more mouse driven. eventually you'll probably end up with Acme as much your "shell" as anything, and you'll find auto complete is unneccessary.
> But you're right, it is a nice feature of the bash shell but then there are soooo many goddam directories on a Linux/FreeBSD box and auto complete is Bash's way of trying to alleviate the pain. If you miss it too much I'm sure you could just write a shell script to monitor /dev/cons for tabs, and echo the stuff into /dev/cons.
> Personally, I do prefer having the screen as free form is plan9's is. The shell is more than the commands you can type, it's where you can type them.
I remember the major flamewar over whether Byron's unix implementation of rc
should do this; I was in the 'no way' camp. The result was that you could
conditionally compile in that readline trash. You could probably pick it out
and stick into Plan 9's rc if you wanted to, but Plan 9 is not unix. It has
much better ways to do things.
I guess another way to do it is to use pipefile. One of the Kenji's (iirc)
did this for japanese input -- now there's a problem for you.
As for Latin-1: "Fco. J. Ballesteros" <nemo@plan9.escet.urjc.es> has volunteered
to clean up what I did late last year (I'm too busy). If anyone wants it I'll
send it on or put it on a web page somewhere. I think the only problem is the
caps-lock/ctrl key swap.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help
2002-01-21 10:22 ` Boyd Roberts
@ 2002-01-21 10:40 ` John Murdie
0 siblings, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: John Murdie @ 2002-01-21 10:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans; +Cc: John Murdie
> - Why doesnt/Can rc have autocomplete and filename completion as in
> bash ? This has become so neccessary.
If you put the command history editor in the shell, then you can only
use it in the shell; if you use another shell from time to time, then
you have to learn to use that shell's (different) history mechanism.
It's far better to use a single, general, command history mechanism
provided by your terminal emulator or Acme (which is so more than a
terminal emulator). There is a slight loss from the shell and the
command history editor being separated, I know.
Incidentally, I hate command completion predictors; they remember my
typing mistakes days, weeks or months later, either hesitating to show
me the full, correct, command because of my previous mistake or, worse,
confidently complete my command with the mistake!
--
John A. Murdie
Experimental Officer (Software)
Department of Computer Science
University of York
England
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help
2002-01-20 20:02 [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help Roshan James
2002-01-20 21:01 ` Matt H
@ 2002-01-20 21:03 ` William S.
2002-01-20 21:34 ` William Josephson
2002-01-21 6:53 ` cej
3 siblings, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: William S. @ 2002-01-20 21:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
I can answer this one:
step one: (at the prompt type) a:
step two: cd /n/a:
Bill
Amsterdam, NL
On Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 01:32:35AM +0530, Roshan James wrote:
<<snip>>
>
> - How can i access the floppy a: ? /n/a: exists but shows no files.
<<snip>>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help
2002-01-20 20:02 [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help Roshan James
2002-01-20 21:01 ` Matt H
2002-01-20 21:03 ` William S.
@ 2002-01-20 21:34 ` William Josephson
2002-01-21 6:53 ` cej
3 siblings, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: William Josephson @ 2002-01-20 21:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
On Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 01:32:35AM +0530, Roshan James wrote:
> - Why doesnt/Can rc have autocomplete and filename completion as in
> bash ? This has become so neccessary.
binding everything on to /bin mostly remove the need for this.
If you haven't done so already, I would suggest grabbing the
various shell scripts and C programs from Russ Cox's web
page at www.eecs.harvard.edu/~rsc. " and "" are very useful
in conjunction with the mouse.
-WJ
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help
2002-01-20 20:02 [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help Roshan James
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2002-01-20 21:34 ` William Josephson
@ 2002-01-21 6:53 ` cej
3 siblings, 0 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: cej @ 2002-01-21 6:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 9fans
Rosh,
you can find some stupid scripts, including "find", at
http://cejchan.gli.cas.cz/plan9
Cheers,
--pac
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2002-06-29 2:23 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 204+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2000-08-18 15:34 [9fans] Re: Solaris thread scheaduling rob pike
[not found] ` <rob@plan9.bell-labs.com>
2000-08-02 14:48 ` [9fans] pipefile rob pike
2000-08-02 15:49 ` James A. Robinson
2000-08-18 20:25 ` [9fans] Re: Solaris thread scheaduling Tom Duff
2000-09-06 21:59 ` [9fans] Reliable Cray Y-MP C90 Supercomputer rob pike
2000-09-06 22:02 ` James A. Robinson
2000-09-06 22:14 ` Boyd Roberts
2000-09-06 22:11 ` Boyd Roberts
2000-09-07 22:18 ` [9fans] new versions of graphics programs? Tom Duff
2000-11-01 22:23 ` [9fans] /n/smtp rob pike
2000-11-01 22:38 ` Scott Schwartz
2000-11-24 0:41 ` [9fans] Crazy idea... or a new project? rob pike
2000-11-24 0:48 ` Boyd Roberts
2000-11-24 22:13 ` Scott Schwartz
2000-11-24 22:24 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-02-06 17:11 ` [9fans] azerty [french] keyboard support rob pike
2001-02-06 19:10 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-02-06 19:23 ` Dan Cross
2001-02-07 15:23 ` [9fans] 9p2k, fsync rob pike
2001-02-07 18:42 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-02-08 1:19 ` Dan Cross
2001-02-08 9:43 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-02-14 13:51 ` [9fans] isatty rob pike
2001-02-14 16:42 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-03-26 14:12 ` [9fans] sam mod for delete-forward rob pike
2001-03-26 15:37 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-03-27 8:25 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-03-27 14:01 ` Sam
2001-03-27 16:51 ` Dan Cross
2001-03-28 8:37 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-03-29 8:26 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-03-26 15:42 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-05-10 14:59 ` [9fans] snprint(), getfields() specification rob pike
2001-05-10 16:42 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-05-10 18:13 ` Steve Kilbane
2001-05-10 21:38 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-11 6:51 ` Steve Kilbane
2001-05-19 14:14 ` Re[4]: [9fans] home, end ^h^j^k^l rob pike
2001-05-19 14:26 ` Re[6]: " Matt H
2001-05-19 22:45 ` [9fans] ls -m Scott Schwartz
2001-05-19 22:50 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-19 15:35 ` Re[4]: [9fans] home, end ^h^j^k^l James A. Robinson
2001-05-19 20:36 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-19 23:30 ` Richard Elberger
2001-05-20 2:37 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20 7:03 ` Lucio De Re
2001-05-20 11:16 ` paurea
2001-05-20 13:11 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20 13:04 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-23 8:24 ` Randolph Fritz
2001-05-23 8:46 ` Re[6]: " Matt H
2001-05-23 9:04 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20 0:16 ` [9fans] ls -m rob pike
2001-05-20 0:31 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20 1:38 ` [9fans] mouse vs key Scott Schwartz
2001-05-20 6:29 ` Dan Cross
2001-05-20 8:09 ` Matt H
2001-05-20 11:35 ` Re[2]: [9fans] mouse vs key - nethack matt
2001-05-20 13:13 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-05-20 12:50 ` [9fans] mouse vs key Boyd Roberts
2001-05-29 4:27 ` [9fans] src vs db rob pike
2001-05-29 4:37 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-07-11 19:22 ` [9fans] sam vs acme rob pike
2001-07-11 20:08 ` James A. Robinson
2001-08-14 12:54 ` [9fans] User Interface rob pike
2001-08-14 15:01 ` James A. Robinson
2001-08-16 13:45 ` phaet0n
2001-08-20 8:57 ` Randolph Fritz
2001-12-02 3:10 ` [9fans] plumb rob pike
2001-12-02 3:31 ` Scott Schwartz
2002-01-30 5:52 ` [9fans] venti rob pike
2002-01-30 6:23 ` George Michaelson
2002-01-30 8:07 ` paurea
2002-01-30 11:17 ` Boyd Roberts
2002-03-01 6:20 ` Fwd: Re: [9fans] samuel (fwd) rob pike
2002-03-01 6:34 ` George Michaelson
2002-03-01 12:04 ` Boyd Roberts
2002-04-27 16:35 ` [9fans] Fourth Release of Plan 9 Now Available rob pike, esq.
2002-04-27 18:24 ` Scott Schwartz
2002-04-27 22:14 ` Laura Creighton
2002-04-29 9:37 ` Andrew
2002-06-28 16:49 ` [9fans] dumb question rob pike, esq.
2002-06-29 2:23 ` Scott Schwartz
2000-09-07 21:57 [9fans] new versions of graphics programs? rob pike
2000-09-07 22:50 ` Jim Choate
[not found] ` <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
2000-09-07 22:35 ` Tom Duff
2000-09-07 23:24 ` Jim Choate
2000-09-08 15:28 ` please_no_spam_to_
[not found] ` <D.M.Pick@qmw.ac.uk>
2000-09-08 16:43 ` Tom Duff
2001-06-09 17:22 [9fans] could those of you who have students check this out for forsyth
2001-06-09 18:50 ` [9fans] Re: the 'science' in computer science andrey mirtchovski
2001-06-09 17:56 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-11 8:27 ` pac
2001-06-11 15:19 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-11 21:43 ` Boyd Roberts
[not found] ` <0cb501c0f2bf$97cacea0$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>
2001-06-11 22:43 ` paurea
2001-06-12 14:18 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-12 15:50 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12 18:48 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-12 0:09 ` Scott Merrilees
2001-06-12 0:16 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12 0:42 ` Scott Merrilees
2001-06-12 1:08 ` Boyd Roberts
[not found] ` <0cc301c0f2c0$78949560$e8b7c6d4@SOMA>
2001-06-12 14:12 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-16 23:34 ` Matt
2001-06-28 21:29 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-28 22:03 ` Matt
2001-06-28 23:20 ` George Michaelson
2001-06-29 21:27 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-07-18 15:49 ` Ralph Corderoy
2001-06-29 4:30 ` Lucio De Re
[not found] <vikki@proweb.co.uk>
2001-06-10 17:32 ` [9fans] string to list? vikki
2001-06-10 17:47 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-10 17:55 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-10 18:03 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-06-10 21:48 ` Matt
2001-06-10 22:24 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-06-10 22:30 ` Boyd Roberts
[not found] <matt@proweb.co.uk>
2001-06-12 0:39 ` [9fans] help, i'm in a wet paper bag and I can't get out Matt
2001-06-12 0:55 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-06-12 1:12 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12 1:00 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-12 1:30 ` Jonathan Sergent
2001-06-15 8:27 ` Hermann Samso
2001-06-15 11:53 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-15 12:18 ` Matt
2001-06-15 14:01 ` Matt
2001-06-15 14:25 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-26 16:33 [9fans] bitsy question John Packer
2001-06-26 17:10 ` [9fans] " Dan Cross
2001-06-26 19:51 ` John Packer
2001-06-26 20:34 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-29 22:32 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-06-27 1:15 ` [9fans] Two cpu servers? Ish Rattan
2001-06-26 20:09 ` [9fans] Re: bitsy question John Packer
2001-06-26 20:36 ` Dan Cross
2001-06-26 20:18 ` Latchesar Ionkov
2001-06-26 20:28 ` Matt
2001-06-26 22:13 ` Steve Kilbane
2001-07-12 8:42 [9fans] architectures forsyth
2001-07-12 13:56 ` Laura Creighton
2001-07-12 16:13 ` Ozan Yigit
2001-07-12 16:33 ` Matt
2001-07-12 18:12 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-07-12 18:16 ` Martin Harriss
2001-07-12 18:43 ` Dan Cross
2001-07-13 14:52 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-07-13 15:13 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-14 9:46 [9fans] User Interface Eric de Redelijkheid
2001-08-14 13:15 ` John Murdie
2001-08-15 13:23 ` William K. Josephson
2001-08-16 21:04 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-14 10:02 nigel
2001-08-14 10:27 ` Lucio De Re
2001-08-14 12:45 ` pac
2001-08-15 8:34 ` Eric de Redelijkheid
2001-08-16 0:59 ` Micah Stetson
2001-08-15 23:25 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-16 8:28 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
[not found] ` <200108151619.MAA07420@augusta.math.psu.edu>
2001-08-16 8:28 ` Eric de Redelijkheid
2001-08-16 10:26 ` Re[2]: " Matt
2001-08-16 10:43 ` Eric de Redelijkheid
2001-08-16 19:29 ` Steve Kilbane
2001-08-16 20:40 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-17 8:50 ` mark powers
2001-08-17 8:49 ` Douglas A. Gwyn
2001-08-14 16:53 forsyth
2001-08-14 17:13 anothy
2001-08-15 17:06 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-14 17:58 bwc
2001-08-14 19:09 ` andrey mirtchovski
2001-08-15 12:46 rob pike
2001-08-15 16:35 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-15 13:27 Peter Bosch
2001-08-15 14:20 bwc
2001-08-15 17:13 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-16 1:00 okamoto
2001-08-16 5:56 ` Fariborz 'Skip' Tavakkolian
2001-08-17 11:17 forsyth
2001-08-20 15:02 Re[2]: " anothy
2001-08-22 21:25 ` Matthew Hannigan
2001-08-23 2:24 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-23 15:04 ` Dan Cross
2001-08-23 20:17 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-23 20:17 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-23 21:35 ` Dan Cross
2001-08-23 21:49 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-24 13:04 ` David Lukes
2001-08-23 20:17 ` Boyd Roberts
2001-08-23 15:35 Vincent van Gelderen
2001-10-25 17:55 [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9 Russ Cox
2001-10-25 18:29 ` William Josephson
2001-10-26 8:09 ` [9fans] acme bug/annoyance? Matt
2001-10-26 11:36 ` rob pike
2001-10-26 14:43 ` Scott Schwartz
2001-10-29 10:16 ` [9fans] Virtual memory in BSD and Plan9 John S. Dyson
2002-01-20 20:02 [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help Roshan James
2002-01-20 21:01 ` Matt H
2002-01-20 22:02 ` Scott Schwartz
2002-01-22 9:54 ` ozan s yigit
2002-01-23 10:05 ` Bakul Shah
2002-01-21 10:22 ` Boyd Roberts
2002-01-21 10:40 ` John Murdie
2002-01-20 21:03 ` William S.
2002-01-20 21:34 ` William Josephson
2002-01-21 6:53 ` cej
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