* [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 @ 2012-03-16 19:17 Anthony Sorace 2012-03-16 19:36 ` tlaronde ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Anthony Sorace @ 2012-03-16 19:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1204 bytes --] Folks: Unfortunately, Plan 9 was not selected to participate in this year's Summer of Code. There is an upcoming "rejected orgs" meeting where folks will have the chance to hear (very briefly) why and what can be improved, and I'll try to make that and report back (it hasn't been scheduled yet). Thanks to everyone who submitted ideas, volunteered to mentor or help find students, or worked on the wiki. I'd submit that the sorts of work we do to prepare for GSoC is worth doing anyway - making it easier for newcomers to use and contribute to the system. Keep it up! If you're an eligible student, I'd still encourage you to check out the list of accepted organizations[0]. There are 180 organizations participating this year, so you've got a good shot at finding something else interesting going on. And, of course, just because we're not in GSoC this summer doesn't mean we aren't interested in getting new contributors! Take a look at the materials we put together for GSoC[1], get in touch, and help out. Thanks again, Anthony [0] http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/accepted_orgs/google/gsoc2012 [1] http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/GSoC/index.html [-- Attachment #2: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 210 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-16 19:17 [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 Anthony Sorace @ 2012-03-16 19:36 ` tlaronde 2012-03-18 20:30 ` ron minnich ` (2 more replies) 2012-03-20 9:54 ` faif 2012-03-27 17:11 ` Anthony Sorace 2 siblings, 3 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: tlaronde @ 2012-03-16 19:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 03:17:13PM -0400, Anthony Sorace wrote: > Folks: > Unfortunately, Plan 9 was not selected to participate in > this year's Summer of Code. I don't know the exhaustive list of rejected, but I would say that the accepted one is enlightening. And BTW, Plan9 is not the only one not here... I see many missing... And as Anthony writes, this does not prevent any doing. -- Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com> http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-16 19:36 ` tlaronde @ 2012-03-18 20:30 ` ron minnich [not found] ` <CAP6exYJu1YTDWQK58cnD9T2235iaSXzphpXVTEW_6VogV3F+Sg@mail.gmail.c> 2012-03-19 9:35 ` [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 faif 2 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: ron minnich @ 2012-03-18 20:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs coreboot got rejected too and we had 5 years in a row. Don't feel bad. I think they're trying to make sure that they don't get the same players year after year, which is a good idea IMHO. ron ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
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* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 [not found] ` <CAP6exYJu1YTDWQK58cnD9T2235iaSXzphpXVTEW_6VogV3F+Sg@mail.gmail.c> @ 2012-03-18 20:35 ` erik quanstrom 2012-03-18 22:06 ` Joseph Stewart 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2012-03-18 20:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Sun Mar 18 16:32:12 EDT 2012, rminnich@gmail.com wrote: > coreboot got rejected too and we had 5 years in a row. Don't feel bad. > I think they're trying to make sure that they don't get the same > players year after year, which is a good idea IMHO. > thanks, ron. that's reason enough to try again next year. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-18 20:35 ` erik quanstrom @ 2012-03-18 22:06 ` Joseph Stewart 2012-03-18 22:20 ` John Floren 2012-03-19 15:50 ` [9fans] Summer of Plan 9 Anthony Sorace 0 siblings, 2 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Joseph Stewart @ 2012-03-18 22:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 917 bytes --] So this all makes me wonder why some social aggregation group (aka stack overflow or reddit/programming) or even just a big group of decentralized nerds couldn't just do a variant of GSoC on our own. Lining up mentors and mentees particularly w/o big biz or school backing is kinda what open source is all about. I guess what I'm saying is "could we do this on our own"? Maybe not having Google behind the effort takes some of the air out of it... but maybe not? -j On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 1:35 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>wrote: > On Sun Mar 18 16:32:12 EDT 2012, rminnich@gmail.com wrote: > > coreboot got rejected too and we had 5 years in a row. Don't feel bad. > > I think they're trying to make sure that they don't get the same > > players year after year, which is a good idea IMHO. > > > > thanks, ron. that's reason enough to try again next year. > > - erik > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1407 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-18 22:06 ` Joseph Stewart @ 2012-03-18 22:20 ` John Floren 2012-03-18 22:39 ` Joseph Stewart 2012-03-19 15:50 ` [9fans] Summer of Plan 9 Anthony Sorace 1 sibling, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: John Floren @ 2012-03-18 22:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs I think being able to pay the students is what really makes GSoC work. It adds an additional dimension that makes it a lot harder to just say, "Oh, I'm bored with this, I quit". John On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Joseph Stewart <joseph.stewart@gmail.com> wrote: > So this all makes me wonder why some social aggregation group (aka stack > overflow or reddit/programming) or even just a big group of decentralized > nerds couldn't just do a variant of GSoC on our own. > > Lining up mentors and mentees particularly w/o big biz or school backing is > kinda what open source is all about. > > I guess what I'm saying is "could we do this on our own"? Maybe not having > Google behind the effort takes some of the air out of it... but maybe not? > > -j > > > On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 1:35 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> > wrote: >> >> On Sun Mar 18 16:32:12 EDT 2012, rminnich@gmail.com wrote: >> > coreboot got rejected too and we had 5 years in a row. Don't feel bad. >> > I think they're trying to make sure that they don't get the same >> > players year after year, which is a good idea IMHO. >> > >> >> thanks, ron. that's reason enough to try again next year. >> >> - erik >> > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-18 22:20 ` John Floren @ 2012-03-18 22:39 ` Joseph Stewart 2012-03-18 23:49 ` John Floren [not found] ` <CAL4LZyhpc=qJVNeBCX2uPLkFeD4tLGYUBPtwiDu3WWS3uqrHPg@mail.gmail.c> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Joseph Stewart @ 2012-03-18 22:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1495 bytes --] I guess I didn't realize there was pay involved. How about a kick-starter approach? Think it'd work? On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 3:20 PM, John Floren <john@jfloren.net> wrote: > I think being able to pay the students is what really makes GSoC work. > It adds an additional dimension that makes it a lot harder to just > say, "Oh, I'm bored with this, I quit". > > John > > On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Joseph Stewart > <joseph.stewart@gmail.com> wrote: > > So this all makes me wonder why some social aggregation group (aka stack > > overflow or reddit/programming) or even just a big group of decentralized > > nerds couldn't just do a variant of GSoC on our own. > > > > Lining up mentors and mentees particularly w/o big biz or school backing > is > > kinda what open source is all about. > > > > I guess what I'm saying is "could we do this on our own"? Maybe not > having > > Google behind the effort takes some of the air out of it... but maybe > not? > > > > -j > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 1:35 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> > > wrote: > >> > >> On Sun Mar 18 16:32:12 EDT 2012, rminnich@gmail.com wrote: > >> > coreboot got rejected too and we had 5 years in a row. Don't feel bad. > >> > I think they're trying to make sure that they don't get the same > >> > players year after year, which is a good idea IMHO. > >> > > >> > >> thanks, ron. that's reason enough to try again next year. > >> > >> - erik > >> > > > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2210 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-18 22:39 ` Joseph Stewart @ 2012-03-18 23:49 ` John Floren [not found] ` <CAL4LZyhpc=qJVNeBCX2uPLkFeD4tLGYUBPtwiDu3WWS3uqrHPg@mail.gmail.c> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: John Floren @ 2012-03-18 23:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Kickstarter works because the people on Kickstarter are interested in whatever the project is producing. A book, a video game, other products. Plan 9 has a small community and an even smaller number of people who actually use it. Unfortunately, I don't think there's enough money there to pay for 1 GSoC-equivalent student, especially considering that the project may turn out to be something the contributors have very little interest in. GSoC works great for Google because they have the money & organization to do it. It builds good-will for them and helps them scout potential employees while also (ideally) improving open source projects. The only thing 9fans has out of that list is the interest in improving an open source project :) John On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Joseph Stewart <joseph.stewart@gmail.com> wrote: > I guess I didn't realize there was pay involved. How about a kick-starter > approach? Think it'd work? > > > On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 3:20 PM, John Floren <john@jfloren.net> wrote: >> >> I think being able to pay the students is what really makes GSoC work. >> It adds an additional dimension that makes it a lot harder to just >> say, "Oh, I'm bored with this, I quit". >> >> John >> >> On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Joseph Stewart >> <joseph.stewart@gmail.com> wrote: >> > So this all makes me wonder why some social aggregation group (aka stack >> > overflow or reddit/programming) or even just a big group of >> > decentralized >> > nerds couldn't just do a variant of GSoC on our own. >> > >> > Lining up mentors and mentees particularly w/o big biz or school backing >> > is >> > kinda what open source is all about. >> > >> > I guess what I'm saying is "could we do this on our own"? Maybe not >> > having >> > Google behind the effort takes some of the air out of it... but maybe >> > not? >> > >> > -j >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 1:35 PM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sun Mar 18 16:32:12 EDT 2012, rminnich@gmail.com wrote: >> >> > coreboot got rejected too and we had 5 years in a row. Don't feel >> >> > bad. >> >> > I think they're trying to make sure that they don't get the same >> >> > players year after year, which is a good idea IMHO. >> >> > >> >> >> >> thanks, ron. that's reason enough to try again next year. >> >> >> >> - erik >> >> >> > >> > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
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* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 [not found] ` <CAL4LZyhpc=qJVNeBCX2uPLkFeD4tLGYUBPtwiDu3WWS3uqrHPg@mail.gmail.c> @ 2012-03-19 0:37 ` erik quanstrom 2012-03-19 1:33 ` Calvin Morrison ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2012-03-19 0:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: john, 9fans On Sun Mar 18 19:51:00 EDT 2012, john@jfloren.net wrote: > Kickstarter works because the people on Kickstarter are interested in > whatever the project is producing. A book, a video game, other > products. Plan 9 has a small community and an even smaller number of > people who actually use it. Unfortunately, I don't think there's > enough money there to pay for 1 GSoC-equivalent student, especially > considering that the project may turn out to be something the > contributors have very little interest in. > > GSoC works great for Google because they have the money & organization > to do it. It builds good-will for them and helps them scout potential > employees while also (ideally) improving open source projects. The > only thing 9fans has out of that list is the interest in improving an > open source project :) i'm not ready to dismiss this idea. there are student, project, mentor tuples i'd be willing to pony up gsoc-level money for. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-19 0:37 ` erik quanstrom @ 2012-03-19 1:33 ` Calvin Morrison [not found] ` <CAJFUHyUv=F5PrLAn4eae_28u-oinycPGPWJwVLhS552O1+LFJg@mail.gmail.c> [not found] ` <CAJFUHyUv=F5PrLAn4eae_28u-oinycPGPWJwVLhS552O1+LFJg@> 2 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Calvin Morrison @ 2012-03-19 1:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 18 March 2012 20:37, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote: > On Sun Mar 18 19:51:00 EDT 2012, john@jfloren.net wrote: >> Kickstarter works because the people on Kickstarter are interested in >> whatever the project is producing. A book, a video game, other >> products. Plan 9 has a small community and an even smaller number of >> people who actually use it. Unfortunately, I don't think there's >> enough money there to pay for 1 GSoC-equivalent student, especially >> considering that the project may turn out to be something the >> contributors have very little interest in. >> >> GSoC works great for Google because they have the money & organization >> to do it. It builds good-will for them and helps them scout potential >> employees while also (ideally) improving open source projects. The >> only thing 9fans has out of that list is the interest in improving an >> open source project :) > > i'm not ready to dismiss this idea. there are student, project, mentor tuples i'd > be willing to pony up gsoc-level money for. > > - erik > I am a student who would be interested in doing GSOC next year. In reality it all comes down to getting paid though. Like someone mentioned, very little work gets done on "free will", so gsoc is a good approach. (especially implementing not so fun things nobody dares touch) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
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* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 [not found] ` <CAJFUHyUv=F5PrLAn4eae_28u-oinycPGPWJwVLhS552O1+LFJg@mail.gmail.c> @ 2012-03-19 2:04 ` erik quanstrom 2012-03-19 2:09 ` Calvin Morrison 2012-03-19 4:07 ` Tristan 0 siblings, 2 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2012-03-19 2:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > I am a student who would be interested in doing GSOC next year. In > reality it all comes down to getting paid though. Like someone > mentioned, very little work gets done on "free will", so gsoc is a > good approach. (especially implementing not so fun things nobody dares > touch) that's one way of looking at it. another way of looking at it is that the best jobs are the ones that you'd do anyway. and one could argue these lucky people get the best job done. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-19 2:04 ` erik quanstrom @ 2012-03-19 2:09 ` Calvin Morrison 2012-03-19 8:47 ` tlaronde 2012-03-19 4:07 ` Tristan 1 sibling, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Calvin Morrison @ 2012-03-19 2:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 18 March 2012 22:04, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote: >> I am a student who would be interested in doing GSOC next year. In >> reality it all comes down to getting paid though. Like someone >> mentioned, very little work gets done on "free will", so gsoc is a >> good approach. (especially implementing not so fun things nobody dares >> touch) > > that's one way of looking at it. another way of looking at it is that > the best jobs are the ones that you'd do anyway. and one could argue > these lucky people get the best job done. > Agreed - people do tend to perform better when working on a project they are really invested in. But if that was true enough, wouldn't tons of people be stepping up to support plan9 development? If not, then obviously it's not worth anyone's time. Calvin ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-19 2:09 ` Calvin Morrison @ 2012-03-19 8:47 ` tlaronde 0 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: tlaronde @ 2012-03-19 8:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 10:09:30PM -0400, Calvin Morrison wrote: > > Agreed - people do tend to perform better when working on a project > they are really invested in. > > But if that was true enough, wouldn't tons of people be stepping up to > support plan9 development? > > If not, then obviously it's not worth anyone's time. There is another parameter to take into account: real life, and day-to-day necessity. I wanted for years to redo the TeX distribution. And time has shown that I was _really_ interested in it. It was on the stack. Always on the stack. But priorities keep it not on the top of stack, that's all. The money can simply not give interest in it---if this is the case, this will be the wrong motiv---but opportunity to do it by increasing its priority on the stack. -- Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com> http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-19 2:04 ` erik quanstrom 2012-03-19 2:09 ` Calvin Morrison @ 2012-03-19 4:07 ` Tristan 1 sibling, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Tristan @ 2012-03-19 4:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > that's one way of looking at it. another way of looking at it is that > the best jobs are the ones that you'd do anyway. and one could argue > these lucky people get the best job done. as someone who's currently doing some of it anyway, work on plan9 would be delightful. but i'm not so sure i'd get the best job done. with bug fixes and the like i feel fairly confident in my code, but for extensions and additions i often doubt my code is good enough for the distribution (though it certainly seems less hard to read than most of the linux device drivers i've read) maybe some mentoring would help, but even if gsoc were happening i'm not elegible. and i would guess that i'm not one of the students in erik's combinations ⌣ (assuming a closed set). but, i'll continue what i'm doing regardless, and maybe another four years will produce some nice code. enjoy, tristan -- All original matter is hereby placed immediately under the public domain. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
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* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 [not found] ` <CAJFUHyVQEO8a9uEqc8=zsh725Z_=sq-zBCvZEVTrdrsdOznszQ@mail.gmail.c> @ 2012-03-19 2:16 ` erik quanstrom 2012-03-19 2:40 ` Calvin Morrison 2012-03-19 18:21 ` steve 0 siblings, 2 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2012-03-19 2:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > Agreed - people do tend to perform better when working on a project > they are really invested in. > > But if that was true enough, wouldn't tons of people be stepping up to > support plan9 development? > > If not, then obviously it's not worth anyone's time. your argument seems to me to be an all-or-nothing logical fallicy. i don't think the fact that the plan 9 community is small is an indication that it's not worth spending time on. if that were the case, i'd be looking for a new job right now. as it is, we're hiring. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-19 2:16 ` erik quanstrom @ 2012-03-19 2:40 ` Calvin Morrison 2012-03-19 3:15 ` andrew zerger 2012-03-19 18:21 ` steve 1 sibling, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Calvin Morrison @ 2012-03-19 2:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On 18 March 2012 22:16, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote: >> Agreed - people do tend to perform better when working on a project >> they are really invested in. >> >> But if that was true enough, wouldn't tons of people be stepping up to >> support plan9 development? >> >> If not, then obviously it's not worth anyone's time. > > your argument seems to me to be an all-or-nothing logical fallicy. But in the context of GSOC, it's all or nothing. People willingly contribute small stuff, and hobby stuff. I see GSOC as a time where a project can get a lot of work done, pay the developer, and make sure they do it well. I regularly contribute to a few small Open Source projects. If I could get paid to do it, I would be spending a lot more time with the project :-) > i don't think the fact that the plan 9 community is small is an indication > that it's not worth spending time on. if that were the case, i'd be looking > for a new job right now. as it is, we're hiring. I agree with this. In the linux world I help out with Trinity Desktop Environment, a KDE3 continuation. I often see "small" being a bad thing. Personally I love it. Sorry for being misleading, sort of just rambling Calvin ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-19 2:40 ` Calvin Morrison @ 2012-03-19 3:15 ` andrew zerger 0 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: andrew zerger @ 2012-03-19 3:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2748 bytes --] It feels like the kind of thing I always wind up saying to someone who "want's to learn about computers." .. You need a reason that you really care about, or odds are you probably wont make it that far. Leading a horse to water thing. Or else, you dont have a reason but by golly you can learn and do anything, you can learn the particulars of some code and not have a clue how you or anyone else would use it. Like you say, you need to be invested.. either in the long time-scale curve of 20-years r&d beats 15 years by 5 years of the t^2 curve of tech value (or whatever.) Or .. system programming isn't taught outside of grad-school ? I remember being shown CPP in vo-tech but the curriculum going straight into API, ignoring whatever else was taking place, people that care about YACC and LEX and such things are either grad students or not in school at all- and what are the troff guys that keep posting in here working on anyway that you all want plan9 to deal with printers? :") Just curious, and rambling as well. And .. an abstract computer problem is way more interesting than ... trying to cram all the widgets onto an infinite canvas before a post-API programmer has a chance to muddle it up .. sounds like fun at first.. . () On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 8:40 PM, Calvin Morrison <mutantturkey@gmail.com>wrote: > On 18 March 2012 22:16, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote: > >> Agreed - people do tend to perform better when working on a project > >> they are really invested in. > >> > >> But if that was true enough, wouldn't tons of people be stepping up to > >> support plan9 development? > >> > >> If not, then obviously it's not worth anyone's time. > > > > your argument seems to me to be an all-or-nothing logical fallicy. > > But in the context of GSOC, it's all or nothing. People willingly > contribute small stuff, and hobby stuff. I see GSOC as a time where a > project can get a lot of work done, pay the developer, and make sure > they do it well. > > I regularly contribute to a few small Open Source projects. If I could > get paid to do it, I would be spending a lot more time with the > project :-) > > > i don't think the fact that the plan 9 community is small is an > indication > > that it's not worth spending time on. if that were the case, i'd be > looking > > for a new job right now. as it is, we're hiring. > > I agree with this. In the linux world I help out with Trinity Desktop > Environment, a KDE3 continuation. I often see "small" being a bad > thing. Personally I love it. > > Sorry for being misleading, sort of just rambling > > Calvin > > -- ⎼⎺⎺├@┼␊├├≤-␍⎼␊▒␍:/⎺└␊/⎼⎺# [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3492 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-19 2:16 ` erik quanstrom 2012-03-19 2:40 ` Calvin Morrison @ 2012-03-19 18:21 ` steve 1 sibling, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: steve @ 2012-03-19 18:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs I feel plan9 is the only thing worthy of me spending my time and effort on, and i do (when i can). -Steve On 19 Mar 2012, at 02:16 AM, erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net> wrote: >> Agreed - people do tend to perform better when working on a project >> they are really invested in. >> >> But if that was true enough, wouldn't tons of people be stepping up to >> support plan9 development? >> >> If not, then obviously it's not worth anyone's time. > > your argument seems to me to be an all-or-nothing logical fallicy. > > i don't think the fact that the plan 9 community is small is an indication > that it's not worth spending time on. if that were the case, i'd be looking > for a new job right now. as it is, we're hiring. > > - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* [9fans] Summer of Plan 9 2012-03-18 22:06 ` Joseph Stewart 2012-03-18 22:20 ` John Floren @ 2012-03-19 15:50 ` Anthony Sorace 2012-03-19 16:40 ` tlaronde 1 sibling, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Anthony Sorace @ 2012-03-19 15:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4209 bytes --] Reparenting. > So this all makes me wonder why some social aggregation group > (aka stack overflow or reddit/programming) or even just a big group > of decentralized nerds couldn't just do a variant of GSoC on our own. This is entirely possible. Other organizations who've previously been involved in GSoC have done this - KDE being the most notable example. Google provides some useful tools and examples from their own experience with GSoC that would be helpful (for our community, maybe more the knowledge than the tools, but who knows), and I'm certain some of the Google, KDE, or other similar folks would be willing to talk to us about how to get such a thing off the ground. Yes, there is money involved. From memory, students get $500 when they're accepted, $2,250 if they pass midterm evaluation, and another $2,250 if they pass final evaluation. It's a decent (if unimpressive) stipend for a sumer internship. Google's motto for the payments has become "flip bits, not burgers". It's not about competing for top talent on price, but rather allowing students who'd really like to be coding for the summer to do so without worrying about where their food (beer?) money will come from. We do have some money sitting with Software for the Public Interest (SPI) with our name on it from our previous participation with GSoC, but probably only enough to sponsor 1.5 students at GSoC-ish rates. SPI's also changed either their requirements or their enforcement of them since we got that money in (part of why we don't have more in there) which might make getting it out a bit tricky, but I'm sure it's possible. I'll start figuring out how we can make that happen (which we should know anyway). My main concern is that to put on some kind of formal program, we'd need a certain critical mass to make it worthwhile. I think it'd be a bit silly to do this as a program (rather than just hiring a student for a summer) if we couldn't host, say, a half-dozen students, at least. Unfortunately, that's more than the total number of even half-way respectable applications we got last year. Now, we had a few folks commit to helping out with PR for this year's GSoC effort, had we been admitted, so I imagine we would've done better this year. I think if we can't get this level of participation lined up, with funding to back it, we're not really talking about a Sumer of Code style program, and are really talking about some sort of organized "bounty" system (where, say, Kickstarter might be a better fit). That's okay, although their success is more spotty than GSoC's. So that brings me to my two main questions for a hypothetical Summer of Plan 9: 1) Participation Do folks believe (based on knowledge of actual students, not just "of course Plan 9 is awesome!") that we could get some promising students interested in participating in such a program for the summer? Understanding that it'd have less resumé value than a Google-back project and the selection of projects is inherently a bit more limited. Assume we could pay roughly comparably to GSoC. I'm mostly interested in hearing from folks with direct academic connections or other exposure to actual candidates here. 2) Funding Assume we'd look to fund 6 students at $5,000 each, and we can get $6,000 from SPI. That puts us $24,000 short. Any good ideas for where that'd come from? Anyone with good lines to a prospective corporate backer? Keep in mind we don't currently have a formal entity to handle the money (non-profit or otherwise), which might put off some potential backers. Folks may want to contact me off-list; I'll keep things (other than a running total of potential funds) confidential until we're ready to commit. We have great mentors. I'd (humbly!) suggest that between Devon and I we've got most of the org admin stuff pretty well down. Having fired my main paying client, I've got some free time for interesting tech work, and would gladly put that into getting all the infrastructure working. If we can address the above two points by, say, the end of March or very early April, I think we can make a run of it. Anthony [-- Attachment #2: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 210 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Summer of Plan 9 2012-03-19 15:50 ` [9fans] Summer of Plan 9 Anthony Sorace @ 2012-03-19 16:40 ` tlaronde 0 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: tlaronde @ 2012-03-19 16:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 11:50:54AM -0400, Anthony Sorace wrote: >[...] > So that brings me to my two main questions for a hypothetical > Summer of Plan 9: > > 1) Participation > Do folks believe (based on knowledge of actual students, not > just "of course Plan 9 is awesome!") that we could get some > promising students interested in participating in such a > program for the summer? May I suggest a more long term perspective? I claim that Plan9 with kerTeX (that is finally starting to get the impetus) gives the best distributed OS for science related publication in the academic world. Not to mention OS study by itself. So the more Plan9 (or derived) is used---and the TeX framework is instrumental for this---, the more attraction it will have; and, by mere statistics, the more potential about students. And the more -- Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com> http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-16 19:36 ` tlaronde 2012-03-18 20:30 ` ron minnich [not found] ` <CAP6exYJu1YTDWQK58cnD9T2235iaSXzphpXVTEW_6VogV3F+Sg@mail.gmail.c> @ 2012-03-19 9:35 ` faif 2012-03-19 11:47 ` Paschke Christoph 2 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: faif @ 2012-03-19 9:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Τη Παρασκευή, 16 Μαρτίου 2012 8:36:46 μ.μ. UTC+1, ο χρήστης (άγνωστος) έγραψε: > On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 03:17:13PM -0400, Anthony Sorace wrote: > > Folks: > > Unfortunately, Plan 9 was not selected to participate in > > this year's Summer of Code. > > I don't know the exhaustive list of rejected, but I would say that the > accepted one is enlightening. > > And BTW, Plan9 is not the only one not here... I see many missing... > > And as Anthony writes, this does not prevent any doing. > > -- > Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com> > http://www.kergis.com/ > Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C Τη Παρασκευή, 16 Μαρτίου 2012 8:36:46 μ.μ. UTC+1, ο χρήστης (άγνωστος) έγραψε: > On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 03:17:13PM -0400, Anthony Sorace wrote: > > Folks: > > Unfortunately, Plan 9 was not selected to participate in > > this year's Summer of Code. > > I don't know the exhaustive list of rejected, but I would say that the > accepted one is enlightening. > > And BTW, Plan9 is not the only one not here... I see many missing... > > And as Anthony writes, this does not prevent any doing. > > -- > Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com> > http://www.kergis.com/ > Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C It's a pity to see less novel (IMHO) operating systems like MINIX 3 being accepted, and Plan 9 being rejected... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-19 9:35 ` [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 faif @ 2012-03-19 11:47 ` Paschke Christoph 2012-03-19 12:10 ` tlaronde 2012-03-19 14:50 ` erik quanstrom 0 siblings, 2 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Paschke Christoph @ 2012-03-19 11:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs; +Cc: faif You know that Minix / Prof. Tanenbaum get > 2.4 Mio Euro from European Union to get an Europe side operating system running. They were at the Nuernberg embedded fare. At the moment they migrate the x86 base to Arm. They got 2-3 students for that to work. I think it is not only the GSoC, but also this support from EU. What I also like at Minix is the good documentation (books form Prof. Tanenbaum) you get about the system. I also got some idea to get engaged with Minix especially according to the idea of the Microkernel and the reincarnation drivers etc. But one part I got shocked was the amount of RAM this system needs for nearly nothing and also the missing of nearly each hardware support. So, at Plan 9 you see the old profs around the Bell Labs at work if you compare that both systems. Ok, for my understanding there is the difference between a reincarnation resource approach on base of a Microkernel and driver in user space (in Minix) or an file based distributed resource (in Plan 9), right? So, both ideas I find quite interesting alternative concepts, isn't it? Before I started with Inferno some weeks ago, I still was quite sure to engage with Minix. Only not sure with this hardware and RAM issue at all. So, nothing with the system only needs 1 MB ... But I also get in good hope because the EU money funding. Money always turn the world. But for me most important to see if things are going forward, projects are defined and getting done. That there is not such chaos everywhere that eachone doing anything and all doing nothing ... So, I think most important to describe clearly the installation process that newbies not get a shock or give up already at the beginning. Second: I believe it is important that the website is good readable for normal people, written from native english speaking people that everyone can understand well. It is not a good idea at all if an installation description for example is written from people that have serious problems in expression or precise description of the processes in english words. In this way projects are already born to fail from beginning. The Minix project will get a good start in this way, especially now after financing and after it is coordinated centrally by Vrieje Univerity. And such organizational fundamentals of a system, the Plan 9 group also should get working. I think need clearly write together the projects what ones like to work on, doing it with a clear native english description and the opportunity to get envolved. At the moment I get such chaotic feeling with Plan 9. Maybe I'm wrong? Am 19.03.2012 um 10:35 schrieb faif: > Τη Παρασκευή, 16 Μαρτίου 2012 8:36:46 μ.μ. UTC+1, ο χρήστης (άγνωστος) έγραψε: >> On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 03:17:13PM -0400, Anthony Sorace wrote: >>> Folks: >>> Unfortunately, Plan 9 was not selected to participate in >>> this year's Summer of Code. >> >> I don't know the exhaustive list of rejected, but I would say that the >> accepted one is enlightening. >> >> And BTW, Plan9 is not the only one not here... I see many missing... >> >> And as Anthony writes, this does not prevent any doing. >> >> -- >> Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com> >> http://www.kergis.com/ >> Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C > > > > Τη Παρασκευή, 16 Μαρτίου 2012 8:36:46 μ.μ. UTC+1, ο χρήστης (άγνωστος) έγραψε: >> On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 03:17:13PM -0400, Anthony Sorace wrote: >>> Folks: >>> Unfortunately, Plan 9 was not selected to participate in >>> this year's Summer of Code. >> >> I don't know the exhaustive list of rejected, but I would say that the >> accepted one is enlightening. >> >> And BTW, Plan9 is not the only one not here... I see many missing... >> >> And as Anthony writes, this does not prevent any doing. >> >> -- >> Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com> >> http://www.kergis.com/ >> Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C > > It's a pity to see less novel (IMHO) operating systems like MINIX 3 being accepted, and Plan 9 being rejected... > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-19 11:47 ` Paschke Christoph @ 2012-03-19 12:10 ` tlaronde 2012-03-19 14:25 ` Christoph Paschke 2012-03-19 14:50 ` erik quanstrom 1 sibling, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: tlaronde @ 2012-03-19 12:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 12:47:46PM +0100, Paschke Christoph wrote: > > I also got some idea to get engaged with Minix especially according to the idea of the Microkernel and the reincarnation drivers etc. But one part I got shocked was the amount of RAM this system needs for nearly nothing and also the missing of nearly each hardware support. So, at Plan 9 you see the old profs around the Bell Labs at work if you compare that both systems. Many years ago, I was attracted to "microkernel" by the very word, thinking it was a "small" resources thing, that one could extend when needed and only with what was needed. And the "big" surprise with "micro" kernel is that they are huge; don't perform well unless a huge amount is written in... assembly etc. And I don't know if my english is at fault, but the paper about Plan9 seems to me to make fun of this academic frenzy about these huge resources hog called microkernels, and that Plan9 can not attract such attention and so many papers since it is not in the trend, and does the job while being small... If the U.E. has selected Minix, then it's sure: it's a dead end... They have this gift (helped with lobbying) to always choose the wrong direction. -- Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com> http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-19 12:10 ` tlaronde @ 2012-03-19 14:25 ` Christoph Paschke 2012-03-19 16:26 ` tlaronde 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Christoph Paschke @ 2012-03-19 14:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2134 bytes --] Am 19. März 2012 um 13:10 schrieb tlaronde@polynum.com: On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 12:47:46PM +0100, Paschke Christoph wrote: > > I also got some idea to get engaged with Minix especially according to the idea of the Microkernel and the reincarnation drivers etc. But one part I got shocked was the amount of RAM this system needs for nearly nothing and also the missing of nearly each hardware support. So, at Plan 9 you see the old profs around the Bell Labs at work if you compare that both systems. Many years ago, I was attracted to "microkernel" by the very word, thinking it was a "small" resources thing, that one could extend when needed and only with what was needed. And the "big" surprise with "micro" kernel is that they are huge; don't perform well unless a huge amount is written in... assembly etc. Yes, this I also got the idea in comparison and wonder about! And I don't know if my english is at fault, but the paper about Plan9 seems to me to make fun of this academic frenzy about these huge resources hog called microkernels, and that Plan9 can not attract such attention and so many papers since it is not in the trend, and does the job while being small... If the U.E. has selected Minix, then it's sure: it's a dead end... They have this gift (helped with lobbying) to always choose the wrong direction. Could be or not, who knows? Most cases EU does central shit, already called EUdSSR here in Germany what is other word for EU-SowjetUnion. It is not chosen by the people, it has it's apparatchics at the head that regulates everything more and more ... But as I understood Minix should be in first be a new realization of an industrial POSIX operating system in Europe and an educational system. I see Minix with the old webpage still before the embedded exhibition in Nuernberg and before this EU-Project started. So, this is going fast forward already. And they already looking for industrial partners. So, I as a potential client in the industrial area can work together with them quite easy. I not know if this will be similar with Plan 9 next years? [-- Attachment #2.1: Type: text/html, Size: 3146 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-19 14:25 ` Christoph Paschke @ 2012-03-19 16:26 ` tlaronde 2012-03-19 16:30 ` erik quanstrom 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: tlaronde @ 2012-03-19 16:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 02:25:54PM +0000, Christoph Paschke wrote: > [...] So, this is going fast > forward already. And they already looking for industrial partners. So, I as > a potential client in the industrial area can work together with them quite > easy. I not know if this will be similar with Plan 9 next years? Well, it is a matter of strategy. I claim that Plan9 will still be here, when the E.U. (as _this_ political freak) has disappeared. And this at most a matter of a couple of years, probably less. If your choice on Minix is because it is backed by E.U., you should question how long E.U. will last... My choice on Plan9 (4th or derived systems) is based on technical merits that I feel will still be true in the near or middle future... -- Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com> http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-19 16:26 ` tlaronde @ 2012-03-19 16:30 ` erik quanstrom 2012-03-19 16:52 ` tlaronde 2012-03-19 19:53 ` Christoph Paschke 0 siblings, 2 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2012-03-19 16:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans > If your choice on Minix is because it is backed by E.U., you should > question how long E.U. will last... silly me, i choose operating systems based on technical merit. and last i checked government or meta-government support is not an indicator of technical merit in solving my problems. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-19 16:30 ` erik quanstrom @ 2012-03-19 16:52 ` tlaronde 2012-03-19 19:53 ` Christoph Paschke 1 sibling, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: tlaronde @ 2012-03-19 16:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 12:30:24PM -0400, erik quanstrom wrote: > > If your choice on Minix is because it is backed by E.U., you should > > question how long E.U. will last... > > silly me, i choose operating systems based on technical merit. > and last i checked government or meta-government support > is not an indicator of technical merit in solving my problems. This is because you are not a patented european(TM). Because, if E.U. had been based on "technical merits", it would have never existed to start with... E.U. as an OS is the example of the "thrashing" system: once you have mastered last year legislation, you can not start working, because it is obsolete and you have to load the "new(TM)", "improved(TM)" context... -- Thierry Laronde <tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com> http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-19 16:30 ` erik quanstrom 2012-03-19 16:52 ` tlaronde @ 2012-03-19 19:53 ` Christoph Paschke 2012-03-19 22:08 ` Jacob Todd 1 sibling, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Christoph Paschke @ 2012-03-19 19:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3321 bytes --] >> and last i checked government or meta-government support Ok, I do another example and maybe I'm a stupid German and I have lost the "just for fun" idea. I see that more and more people get already VERY (and announcement is on VERY!) angry about all this chaos around. I give you an example that can understand. If the electric socket would be invented today, what you believe how much of this electric plug typs would exist. I compare it with CARD-Readers. 100:1 ??? Yes sure, we would have 100:1 electric plugs today if they would have been invented today. You not understand that people get ANGRY ABOUT THAT MEGA-SHIT???? This is only one example. There are still more like electric loading of mobile phones and inkjet cartridges in 1000 variants. Do you really think people here in Europe find such things FUNNY? THEY HATE ALREADY WITHOUT END. They not want this 1000 + 1 shit anymore. What is Mini-X? It's already like: I LIKE THE MINIMUM TO WORK, JUST TO WORK AND NOTHING ELSE. Here some company chiefs already saying: We get back to engrave our e-Mails in stone if this goes forward such way. This is for you not understandable that people already get crazy at this endless chaos??? So, Prof. Tanenbaum is going to win here in Europe because this global chaos becoming endless, unbelievable, intolerable. So, is such a demand for a more unique system in Europe idiotic? HOW ELECTRIC SOCKETS where made, from chaos brothers where each one only think of their own interests and ways of earning money? I not know, but maybe in NOT EU countries they like this chaos. Here, already people tired from that chaos and therefore Minix have a very good chance together with governmental support. I not against Plan 9, I only want to explain here why a German as an EU member not so far from sympathize with the Netherland concept of Prof. Tanenbaum. And this is what he already says since years: This modern systems are not to get handled anymore: to complex, cannot be overseen anymore. As I remember he already gave a price in former time for somebody who can explain him the Windows XP-system.Nobody tried it, because CAN NOT! At the current state his statement seams to be true, that NOBODY AT THE WHOLE WORLD IS ABLE to explain the XP-system at whole. So, if someone here think he can explain him, do so. It's not difficult to come in contact with him at minix3.org. I think he is until today waiting for somebody who can tell him. So, you understand what might be the background for the interest in MINI-X here in Europe? And at the moment, I would say, the chances are high, that this will work. The companies have all the same problem: Unbelievable chaos in IT everywhere that they already get crazy on. It is not only lobbyism that stands behind Mini-X, it's some more interests in stability, understandability etc. that got lost in the other operating systems in the last decade. Am 19. März 2012 um 17:30 schrieb erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>: > If your choice on Minix is because it is backed by E.U., you should > question how long E.U. will last... silly me, i choose operating systems based on technical merit. and last i checked government or meta-government support is not an indicator of technical merit in solving my problems. - erik [-- Attachment #2.1: Type: text/html, Size: 6253 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-19 19:53 ` Christoph Paschke @ 2012-03-19 22:08 ` Jacob Todd 2012-03-19 22:22 ` andrey mirtchovski 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Jacob Todd @ 2012-03-19 22:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3588 bytes --] Mark V. Shaney, is that you? On Mar 19, 2012 3:54 PM, "Christoph Paschke" <c.paschke@me.com> wrote: > >> and last i checked government or meta-government support > Ok, I do another example and maybe I'm a stupid German and I have lost the > "just for fun" idea. > > I see that more and more people get already VERY (and announcement is on > VERY!) angry about all this chaos around. > I give you an example that can understand. If the electric socket would be > invented today, what you believe how much of this electric plug typs would > exist. I compare it with CARD-Readers. 100:1 ??? Yes sure, we would have > 100:1 electric plugs today if they would have been invented today. > > You not understand that people get > > ANGRY ABOUT THAT MEGA-SHIT???? > > This is only one example. There are still more like electric loading of > mobile phones and inkjet cartridges in 1000 variants. Do you really think > people here in Europe find such things FUNNY? THEY HATE ALREADY WITHOUT > END. They not want this 1000 + 1 shit anymore. > > What is Mini-X? It's already like: I LIKE THE MINIMUM TO WORK, JUST TO > WORK AND NOTHING ELSE. > > Here some company chiefs already saying: We get back to engrave our > e-Mails in stone if this goes forward such way. > > This is for you not understandable that people already get crazy at this > endless chaos??? > > So, Prof. Tanenbaum is going to win here in Europe because this global > chaos becoming endless, unbelievable, intolerable. > > So, is such a demand for a more unique system in Europe idiotic? > > HOW ELECTRIC SOCKETS where made, from chaos brothers where each one only > think of their own interests and ways of earning money? I not know, but > maybe in NOT EU countries they like this chaos. Here, already people tired > from that chaos and therefore Minix have a very good chance together with > governmental support. > > I not against Plan 9, I only want to explain here why a German as an EU > member not so far from sympathize with the Netherland concept of Prof. > Tanenbaum. And this is what he already says since years: This modern > systems are not to get handled anymore: to complex, cannot be overseen > anymore. As I remember he already gave a price in former time for somebody > who can explain him the Windows XP-system.Nobody tried it, because CAN NOT! > At the current state his statement seams to be true, that NOBODY AT THE > WHOLE WORLD IS ABLE to explain the XP-system at whole. So, if someone here > think he can explain him, do so. It's not difficult to come in contact with > him at minix3.org. I think he is until today waiting for somebody who can > tell him. > > So, you understand what might be the background for the interest in MINI-X > here in Europe? > > And at the moment, I would say, the chances are high, that this will work. > The companies have all the same problem: Unbelievable chaos in IT > everywhere that they already get crazy on. It is not only lobbyism that > stands behind Mini-X, it's some more interests in stability, > understandability etc. that got lost in the other operating systems in the > last decade. > > Am 19. März 2012 um 17:30 schrieb erik quanstrom <quanstro@quanstro.net>: > > > If your choice on Minix is because it is backed by E.U., you should > > question how long E.U. will last... > > silly me, i choose operating systems based on technical merit. > and last i checked government or meta-government support > is not an indicator of technical merit in solving my problems. > > - erik > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5942 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-19 22:08 ` Jacob Todd @ 2012-03-19 22:22 ` andrey mirtchovski 2012-03-19 23:07 ` Charles Forsyth [not found] ` <CAOw7k5iJzhaX-TuCiNtvwM0=XqUK5oZG4cUV2g9DkbKJ=65YCg@mail.gmail.c> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: andrey mirtchovski @ 2012-03-19 22:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs damn electric sockets! *shakes fist of impotent rage* ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-19 22:22 ` andrey mirtchovski @ 2012-03-19 23:07 ` Charles Forsyth 2012-03-19 23:24 ` Bruce Ellis [not found] ` <CAOw7k5iJzhaX-TuCiNtvwM0=XqUK5oZG4cUV2g9DkbKJ=65YCg@mail.gmail.c> 1 sibling, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Charles Forsyth @ 2012-03-19 23:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 196 bytes --] http://crave.cnet.co.uk/gadgets/plug-versus-plug-49303764/ On 19 March 2012 22:22, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchovski@gmail.com> wrote: > damn electric sockets! *shakes fist of impotent rage* [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 495 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-19 23:07 ` Charles Forsyth @ 2012-03-19 23:24 ` Bruce Ellis 2012-03-20 8:25 ` Paschke Christoph 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Bruce Ellis @ 2012-03-19 23:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs Even Shaney is having trouble with these fish of the trees, tho he would like to borrow "Most cases EU does central shit". brucee On 20 March 2012 10:07, Charles Forsyth <charles.forsyth@gmail.com> wrote: > http://crave.cnet.co.uk/gadgets/plug-versus-plug-49303764/ > > > On 19 March 2012 22:22, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchovski@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> damn electric sockets! *shakes fist of impotent rage* > > -- Don't meddle in the mouth -- MVS (0416935147, +1-513-3BRUCEE) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-19 23:24 ` Bruce Ellis @ 2012-03-20 8:25 ` Paschke Christoph 2012-03-20 9:17 ` Bruce Ellis 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Paschke Christoph @ 2012-03-20 8:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs In 3 weeks I need work together with Italians because of a machine control and the optimization system behind. It's already difficult to work together and you can imagine English is already a good way communication works. Although, in real, it is still difficult to understand the italian english and probably same with me that the italians understand my german english. French and Swiss boarders are just some km away ... This multinational mix is a problem in EU. And this not only means the language, it also means so much other things. For example, the culture differences and problems with history. So, I remember some years ago, I had to work together with polish people at a project. I speak russian and therefore I starting to speak with them russian what they can understand very well. They told me: What you speak russian to us, we not living in soviet union anymore. And I answered: You can speak German? NO! What you expect me to speak english, we not living in USA the same. And such is ONLY an example of the intercultural problems because for example the polish people living historically between the hate to russians and the hate to the germans. And if you need work together such way, can be very exhausting and many projects fails. But this is ONLY another example. It becomes also with knowledge very confusing. So, you cannot expect to have one standard to work on. One do such way, other do other way. One knows this way, other knows other way. EU is like the babel tower. And I think that other QUITE homogenous nations like USA cannot understand that chaos. If you buy all you need from your own's company's nation like in former times this is no problem. But if nations working together in such "small scale" as it becomes now more and more reality, it is difficult in many cases. And in this way, I already get the feeling that the EU-project behind the Mini-X is a trial to a machine-control-fundamental that can be quite unique over Europe once a day. How much this is real, how much this will be, who knows? Maybe if Mini-X evolves, the governmental offers of EU will dictate Mini-X as the standard that need be fulfilled. I think in US it was similar procedure with Ada programing language and military hardware etc. I can imagine this is the background of the Mini-X project. Why not Linux? Probably because it is already to much chaos and you cannot come back to the fundamentals anymore that you can expect each nation in EU to get learned, understood ... Coming back to a structured base that also is planed to get teached in schools is maybe the way to solve this problem. But what I speak about Mini-X so much in Plan 9 forum? I got lost a little bit in thoughts about it because of the GSoC and EU support for it. So, in real we speak about Plan 9 here, I know! Therefore last part from me about that comparative issue. Nobody knows how things will come. If people would know, probably Plan 9 would be the follower of Unix, but it didn't come that way! Am 20.03.2012 um 00:24 schrieb Bruce Ellis: > Even Shaney is having trouble with these fish of the trees, tho he > would like to borrow "Most cases EU does central shit". > > brucee > > On 20 March 2012 10:07, Charles Forsyth <charles.forsyth@gmail.com> wrote: >> http://crave.cnet.co.uk/gadgets/plug-versus-plug-49303764/ >> >> >> On 19 March 2012 22:22, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchovski@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> damn electric sockets! *shakes fist of impotent rage* >> >> > > > > -- > Don't meddle in the mouth -- MVS (0416935147, +1-513-3BRUCEE) > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-20 8:25 ` Paschke Christoph @ 2012-03-20 9:17 ` Bruce Ellis 0 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Bruce Ellis @ 2012-03-20 9:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs http://www.chunder.com/text/dead.html On 20 March 2012 19:25, Paschke Christoph <c.paschke@me.com> wrote: > In 3 weeks I need work together with Italians because of a machine control and the optimization system behind. > It's already difficult to work together and you can imagine English is already a good way communication works. > Although, in real, it is still difficult to understand the italian english and probably same with me that the italians understand my german english. > French and Swiss boarders are just some km away ... This multinational mix is a problem in EU. > > And this not only means the language, it also means so much other things. For example, the culture differences and problems with history. > So, I remember some years ago, I had to work together with polish people at a project. I speak russian and therefore I starting to speak with them russian what they can understand very well. They told me: What you speak russian to us, we not living in soviet union anymore. And I answered: You can speak German? NO! What you expect me to speak english, we not living in USA the same. And such is ONLY an example of the intercultural problems because for example the polish people living historically between the hate to russians and the hate to the germans. And if you need work together such way, can be very exhausting and many projects fails. > > But this is ONLY another example. It becomes also with knowledge very confusing. So, you cannot expect to have one standard to work on. One do such way, other do other way. One knows this way, other knows other way. EU is like the babel tower. And I think that other QUITE homogenous nations like USA cannot understand that chaos. > > If you buy all you need from your own's company's nation like in former times this is no problem. > But if nations working together in such "small scale" as it becomes now more and more reality, it is difficult in many cases. > > And in this way, I already get the feeling that the EU-project behind the Mini-X is a trial to a machine-control-fundamental that can be quite unique over Europe once a day. > How much this is real, how much this will be, who knows? Maybe if Mini-X evolves, the governmental offers of EU will dictate Mini-X as the standard that need be fulfilled. I think in US it was similar procedure with Ada programing language and military hardware etc. > > I can imagine this is the background of the Mini-X project. Why not Linux? Probably because it is already to much chaos and you cannot come back to the fundamentals anymore that you can expect each nation in EU to get learned, understood ... Coming back to a structured base that also is planed to get teached in schools is maybe the way to solve this problem. > > But what I speak about Mini-X so much in Plan 9 forum? I got lost a little bit in thoughts about it because of the GSoC and EU support for it. So, in real we speak about Plan 9 here, I know! Therefore last part from me about that comparative issue. Nobody knows how things will come. If people would know, probably Plan 9 would be the follower of Unix, but it didn't come that way! > > Am 20.03.2012 um 00:24 schrieb Bruce Ellis: > >> Even Shaney is having trouble with these fish of the trees, tho he >> would like to borrow "Most cases EU does central shit". >> >> brucee >> >> On 20 March 2012 10:07, Charles Forsyth <charles.forsyth@gmail.com> wrote: >>> http://crave.cnet.co.uk/gadgets/plug-versus-plug-49303764/ >>> >>> >>> On 19 March 2012 22:22, andrey mirtchovski <mirtchovski@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> damn electric sockets! *shakes fist of impotent rage* >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Don't meddle in the mouth -- MVS (0416935147, +1-513-3BRUCEE) >> > > -- Don't meddle in the mouth -- MVS (0416935147, +1-513-3BRUCEE) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
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* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 [not found] ` <CAOw7k5iJzhaX-TuCiNtvwM0=XqUK5oZG4cUV2g9DkbKJ=65YCg@mail.gmail.c> @ 2012-03-19 23:21 ` erik quanstrom 0 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2012-03-19 23:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Mon Mar 19 19:08:13 EDT 2012, charles.forsyth@gmail.com wrote: > http://crave.cnet.co.uk/gadgets/plug-versus-plug-49303764/ "Brilliant: a problem solved that no one other plug needs to solve." - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-19 11:47 ` Paschke Christoph 2012-03-19 12:10 ` tlaronde @ 2012-03-19 14:50 ` erik quanstrom 1 sibling, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2012-03-19 14:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans On Mon Mar 19 07:49:02 EDT 2012, c.paschke@me.com wrote: > Ok, for my understanding there is the difference between a > reincarnation resource approach on base of a Microkernel and driver in > user space (in Minix) or an file based distributed resource (in Plan > 9), right? So, both ideas I find quite interesting alternative > concepts, isn't it? distributed file servers and reincaration are orthagonal concepts. i'm not sure i understand the concept of reincarnation. on the one hand, hardware by its nature can lock your machine up solid and there's nothing the os can do about it. so how do you test driver reincarnation? where could it crash? if you knew the answer to that, you wouldn't need reincatnation. on the other hand, simple bugs like dereferncing null i think would be better handled by fixing the underlying problem. i wouldn't assume that nearly everyone else has taken a look at the reincarnation idea. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-16 19:17 [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 Anthony Sorace 2012-03-16 19:36 ` tlaronde @ 2012-03-20 9:54 ` faif 2012-03-27 17:11 ` Anthony Sorace 2 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: faif @ 2012-03-20 9:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans Τη Δευτέρα, 19 Μαρτίου 2012 3:50:35 μ.μ. UTC+1, ο χρήστης erik quanstrom έγραψε: > > i'm not sure i understand the concept of reincarnation. on the one > hand, hardware by its nature can lock your machine up solid and > there's nothing the os can do about it. so how do you test driver > reincarnation? where could it crash? if you knew the answer to that, > you wouldn't need reincatnation. on the other hand, simple bugs > like dereferncing null i think would be better handled by fixing the > underlying problem. > > i wouldn't assume that nearly everyone else has taken a look at the > reincarnation idea. > > - erik Here's my rough explanation: AFAIU in MINIX 3 there is a server running (called rs) that "monitors" the rest servers (for example by sending small packets similar to keep-alives), and if one of them dies, it restarts it hoping that the problem that killed the server will not occur again. So rs might help in cases where a 3rd party driver crashes a server because of a bug, but it won't help if there's a critical deterministic error; as you correctly point out, the error needs to be fixed instead and there's nothing that we can do if we are talking about a hardware error. So I insist: I see no novelty in MINIX 3. It's just a clone of UNIX with the drivers moved in user space (something that can already be done in Plan 9) and the client-server model (which is already pushed much better in Plan 9), plus a reincarnation server (that can also be implemented in Plan 9). No 9P, no namespaces, no cross compilation by default, no clear text manipulation of device files, etc.... The fact that they have money and the EU picked them is irrelevant. The novelty of an OS lies in its technical aspects, not in the community or fundings... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-16 19:17 [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 Anthony Sorace 2012-03-16 19:36 ` tlaronde 2012-03-20 9:54 ` faif @ 2012-03-27 17:11 ` Anthony Sorace 2012-03-28 5:24 ` erik quanstrom 2 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Anthony Sorace @ 2012-03-27 17:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1393 bytes --] Folks: Friday was the meeting for rejected organizations to get some feedback on their applications and supporting material. I was able to attend on Plan 9's behalf. The news is overall positive, if not terribly satisfying. The folks at Google were quite happy with both our application and our ideas page (the main supporting item). We fell to what was a common refrain in the meeting: they simply had to cut a number of organizations they liked in order to make room for new organizations. In some ways that's not a terribly satisfying answer, as it doesn't leave us with anything particular we can address, but it does speak well of our efforts. Certainly the folks at Google were not shy about giving more pointed feedback to other organizations in the meeting where they had any. If we were to look anywhere for areas to improve, based on the trends of comments to other organizations I'd suggest we could put a little more work into making the descriptions of ideas on our page more consistently filled out. For returning orgs, once a sort of minimum bar is passed for the application the competition really does seem to be largely focused on that page. In the next few days (I'm currently traveling), I'll post my notes from sitting through feedback from 20+ other orgs, as well as a transcript of our session, to the wiki, off the GSoC page. Anthony [-- Attachment #2: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 210 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 2012-03-27 17:11 ` Anthony Sorace @ 2012-03-28 5:24 ` erik quanstrom 0 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: erik quanstrom @ 2012-03-28 5:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 9fans anthony, thanks for doing this. - erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2012-03-28 5:24 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 39+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2012-03-16 19:17 [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 Anthony Sorace 2012-03-16 19:36 ` tlaronde 2012-03-18 20:30 ` ron minnich [not found] ` <CAP6exYJu1YTDWQK58cnD9T2235iaSXzphpXVTEW_6VogV3F+Sg@mail.gmail.c> 2012-03-18 20:35 ` erik quanstrom 2012-03-18 22:06 ` Joseph Stewart 2012-03-18 22:20 ` John Floren 2012-03-18 22:39 ` Joseph Stewart 2012-03-18 23:49 ` John Floren [not found] ` <CAL4LZyhpc=qJVNeBCX2uPLkFeD4tLGYUBPtwiDu3WWS3uqrHPg@mail.gmail.c> 2012-03-19 0:37 ` erik quanstrom 2012-03-19 1:33 ` Calvin Morrison [not found] ` <CAJFUHyUv=F5PrLAn4eae_28u-oinycPGPWJwVLhS552O1+LFJg@mail.gmail.c> 2012-03-19 2:04 ` erik quanstrom 2012-03-19 2:09 ` Calvin Morrison 2012-03-19 8:47 ` tlaronde 2012-03-19 4:07 ` Tristan [not found] ` <CAJFUHyUv=F5PrLAn4eae_28u-oinycPGPWJwVLhS552O1+LFJg@> [not found] ` <CAJFUHyVQEO8a9uEqc8=zsh725Z_=sq-zBCvZEVTrdrsdOznszQ@mail.gmail.c> 2012-03-19 2:16 ` erik quanstrom 2012-03-19 2:40 ` Calvin Morrison 2012-03-19 3:15 ` andrew zerger 2012-03-19 18:21 ` steve 2012-03-19 15:50 ` [9fans] Summer of Plan 9 Anthony Sorace 2012-03-19 16:40 ` tlaronde 2012-03-19 9:35 ` [9fans] Plan 9 rejected from GSoC 2012 faif 2012-03-19 11:47 ` Paschke Christoph 2012-03-19 12:10 ` tlaronde 2012-03-19 14:25 ` Christoph Paschke 2012-03-19 16:26 ` tlaronde 2012-03-19 16:30 ` erik quanstrom 2012-03-19 16:52 ` tlaronde 2012-03-19 19:53 ` Christoph Paschke 2012-03-19 22:08 ` Jacob Todd 2012-03-19 22:22 ` andrey mirtchovski 2012-03-19 23:07 ` Charles Forsyth 2012-03-19 23:24 ` Bruce Ellis 2012-03-20 8:25 ` Paschke Christoph 2012-03-20 9:17 ` Bruce Ellis [not found] ` <CAOw7k5iJzhaX-TuCiNtvwM0=XqUK5oZG4cUV2g9DkbKJ=65YCg@mail.gmail.c> 2012-03-19 23:21 ` erik quanstrom 2012-03-19 14:50 ` erik quanstrom 2012-03-20 9:54 ` faif 2012-03-27 17:11 ` Anthony Sorace 2012-03-28 5:24 ` erik quanstrom
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