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* [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
@ 2019-06-23 23:10 Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  2019-06-23 23:52 ` Arthur Krewat
                   ` (6 more replies)
  0 siblings, 7 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-06-23 23:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1323 bytes --]

Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran across a 5.25" 
floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have 
historical interest.

First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not mine. 
Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached)

I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up. The 
floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which are 
ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which are ASCII 
Usenet backbone maps up to 1987.

There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims to 
be a graphical Usenet map.  Does anyone have any idea what GRF is or 
what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based 
Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85.

I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just 
fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would 
have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS 
2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have anything 
live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with the GRF file.

I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones that 
fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at least for 
the early ASCII ones.

Thanks,

     Mary Ann



[-- Attachment #2: Floppy-Label.png --]
[-- Type: image/png, Size: 64393 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-23 23:10 [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Mary Ann Horton Gmail
@ 2019-06-23 23:52 ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-06-24  0:02   ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2019-06-23 23:57 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
                   ` (5 subsequent siblings)
  6 siblings, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-06-23 23:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Does the AT&T have a serial port?

Kermit would be the way I'd go, but since you say you have nothing with 
serial ports, that could be a problem. A cheap usb-to-serial port might 
be in order. Then you can run Kermit 95 on a Windows 7 or earlier 
machine. (might work on later OS's too, but it's not supported)

The flip side is how to get Kermit onto the DOS machine.

I used a floppy recovery service a while back to read my old Commodore 
64/PET disks - he was relatively inexpensive, and very responsive.

http://retrofloppy.com/



On 6/23/2019 7:10 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran across a 5.25" 
> floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have 
> historical interest.
>
> First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not 
> mine. Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached)
>
> I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up. 
> The floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which 
> are ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which are 
> ASCII Usenet backbone maps up to 1987.
>
> There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims to 
> be a graphical Usenet map.  Does anyone have any idea what GRF is or 
> what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based 
> Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85.
>
> I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just 
> fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would 
> have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS 
> 2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have 
> anything live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with 
> the GRF file.
>
> I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones that 
> fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at least for 
> the early ASCII ones.
>
> Thanks,
>
>     Mary Ann
>
>


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-23 23:10 [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  2019-06-23 23:52 ` Arthur Krewat
@ 2019-06-23 23:57 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2019-06-24  0:40   ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  2019-06-24  1:57   ` Steve Nickolas
  2019-06-24  0:03 ` Theodore Ts'o
                   ` (4 subsequent siblings)
  6 siblings, 2 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-06-23 23:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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On 6/23/19 5:10 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran across a 5.25" 
> floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have 
> historical interest.

Intriguing.

> First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not mine. 
> Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached)
> 
> I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up. The 
> floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which are 
> ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which are ASCII 
> Usenet backbone maps up to 1987.
> 
> There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims to 
> be a graphical Usenet map.  Does anyone have any idea what GRF is or 
> what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based 
> Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85.

Hum.

> I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just 
> fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would 
> have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS 
> 2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have anything 
> live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with the GRF file.

I wonder if you could get away with something as simple as a null modem 
cable and the following commands:

Source:

copy a:\file COM1

Destination:

copy COM1 c:\file

Does the source machine have a hard drive?

Do you have a blank (sacrificial) floppy disk?

Can you copy the files anywhere so that they are in more than one place?

Do you have a printer that you could create a (hexadecimal) printout?

Do you have a machine that can accept a USB-to-Serial adapter?

What about something like a Raspberry Pi?  It has a serial port (though 
it needs a level shifter).

> I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones that 
> fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at least for 
> the early ASCII ones.

I'd be interested in seeing them.  Do you have a place that you can 
upload them to?



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-23 23:52 ` Arthur Krewat
@ 2019-06-24  0:02   ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2019-06-24  0:35     ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
                       ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-06-24  0:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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On 6/23/19 5:52 PM, Arthur Krewat wrote:
> Does the AT&T have a serial port?
> 
> Kermit would be the way I'd go, but since you say you have nothing with 
> serial ports, that could be a problem. A cheap usb-to-serial port might 
> be in order. Then you can run Kermit 95 on a Windows 7 or earlier 
> machine. (might work on later OS's too, but it's not supported)
> 
> The flip side is how to get Kermit onto the DOS machine.

Does Kermit have an option like INTERLNK & INTERSVR have where you can 
run a "copy COM1 INTERxxx.EXE" to push the software across the serial port?

I wonder what the requirements are for INTERLNK & INTERSVR.  I don't 
know if they would go back to (MS-)DOS 2.11 or not.

> I used a floppy recovery service a while back to read my old Commodore 
> 64/PET disks - he was relatively inexpensive, and very responsive.
> 
> http://retrofloppy.com/

If the machine is able to read the files without error, then a recovery 
service might not be necessary.  IMHO it's a question of getting one or 
more copies onto something else so that the existing floppy isn't the 
only copy.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-23 23:10 [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  2019-06-23 23:52 ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-06-23 23:57 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2019-06-24  0:03 ` Theodore Ts'o
  2019-06-24  0:19 ` Seth Morabito
                   ` (3 subsequent siblings)
  6 siblings, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Theodore Ts'o @ 2019-06-24  0:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mary Ann Horton Gmail; +Cc: tuhs

On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 04:10:22PM -0700, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just fine.
> Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would have guessed
> I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS 2.11 (not much
> serial copying software on it) and I don't have anything live with a serial
> port anymore. And it might not help with the GRF file.

Maybe this?

	http://www.deviceside.com/fc5025.html

							- Ted

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-23 23:10 [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Mary Ann Horton Gmail
                   ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2019-06-24  0:03 ` Theodore Ts'o
@ 2019-06-24  0:19 ` Seth Morabito
  2019-06-24  0:33 ` Larry McVoy
                   ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  6 siblings, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Seth Morabito @ 2019-06-24  0:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Sun, Jun 23, 2019, at 4:11 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just 
> fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would 
> have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS 
> 2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have anything 
> live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with the GRF file.

If you can't find a more expedient way, I'd be happy to help read off the files if you're willing to part with the disk for a few days. I have experience reading many old diskette formats, and a PC dedicated to the task running DOS 6.22 and Windows for Workgroups 3.11.

I definitely agree it would be good to save these files for posterity.

> Thanks,
> 
>      Mary Ann

-Seth
-- 
  Seth Morabito
  Poulsbo, WA
  web@loomcom.com

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-23 23:10 [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Mary Ann Horton Gmail
                   ` (3 preceding siblings ...)
  2019-06-24  0:19 ` Seth Morabito
@ 2019-06-24  0:33 ` Larry McVoy
  2019-06-24  1:58   ` Steve Nickolas
  2019-06-25  3:54 ` Jonathan Gevaryahu
  2019-07-09 16:28 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  6 siblings, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2019-06-24  0:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mary Ann Horton Gmail; +Cc: tuhs

I'd look around for an external floppy drive, plug it into a modern machine,
download knoppix, boot that and it will read the disk.

On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 04:10:22PM -0700, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran across a 5.25" floppy
> drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have historical interest.
> 
> First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not mine.
> Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached)
> 
> I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up. The
> floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which are ASCII
> Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which are ASCII Usenet
> backbone maps up to 1987.
> 
> There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims to be a
> graphical Usenet map.?? Does anyone have any idea what GRF is or what this
> map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based Usenet geographic
> map in 84 or 85.
> 
> I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just fine.
> Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would have guessed
> I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS 2.11 (not much
> serial copying software on it) and I don't have anything live with a serial
> port anymore. And it might not help with the GRF file.
> 
> I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones that fit
> on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at least for the early
> ASCII ones.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> ?????? Mary Ann
> 
> 



-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-24  0:02   ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2019-06-24  0:35     ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  2019-06-24  0:53       ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-06-24  0:50     ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-06-24 21:07     ` Michael Kjörling
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-06-24  0:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

These are great ideas. I can easily get USB-to-serial (and even 
USB-to-parallel) cables online that will fit the PC/XT compatible DB-25 
plugs on the back of the PC.  I'll have to figure out how to fiddle with 
the baud rates and such.

I solved the GRF file puzzle.  It turns out it's a text file - a Usenet 
article. And the same article is in the Google archive.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/group$3Anet.news.map$20philabs!dal/net.news.map/lhqyD7MOFe8/v0CQFMZyGboJ

There is a cutoff notice at the end, both on the Usenet article and on 
the floppy file, but that may be intentional.  I'll have some fiddling 
to do.

     Mary Ann

On 6/23/19 5:02 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> On 6/23/19 5:52 PM, Arthur Krewat wrote:
>> Does the AT&T have a serial port?
>>
>> Kermit would be the way I'd go, but since you say you have nothing 
>> with serial ports, that could be a problem. A cheap usb-to-serial 
>> port might be in order. Then you can run Kermit 95 on a Windows 7 or 
>> earlier machine. (might work on later OS's too, but it's not supported)
>>
>> The flip side is how to get Kermit onto the DOS machine.
>
> Does Kermit have an option like INTERLNK & INTERSVR have where you can 
> run a "copy COM1 INTERxxx.EXE" to push the software across the serial 
> port?
>
> I wonder what the requirements are for INTERLNK & INTERSVR.  I don't 
> know if they would go back to (MS-)DOS 2.11 or not.
>
>> I used a floppy recovery service a while back to read my old 
>> Commodore 64/PET disks - he was relatively inexpensive, and very 
>> responsive.
>>
>> http://retrofloppy.com/
>
> If the machine is able to read the files without error, then a 
> recovery service might not be necessary.  IMHO it's a question of 
> getting one or more copies onto something else so that the existing 
> floppy isn't the only copy.
>
>
>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-23 23:57 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2019-06-24  0:40   ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  2019-06-24  1:37     ` William Pechter
  2019-06-24  3:17     ` Jason Stevens
  2019-06-24  1:57   ` Steve Nickolas
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-06-24  0:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

I put the screenshots (literally - with my phone) here:

http://maryannhorton.com/usenet/

Note the preposterous claim that the 4/15/81 map is the "Backbone" - I 
have no idea where that came from. The backbone was first proposed 2 
years later. Clearly this is a full map of Usenet as of 4/15/81.

     Mary Ann

On 6/23/19 4:57 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
>
>> I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones 
>> that fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at 
>> least for the early ASCII ones.
>
> I'd be interested in seeing them.  Do you have a place that you can 
> upload them to?
>
>
>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-24  0:02   ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2019-06-24  0:35     ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
@ 2019-06-24  0:50     ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-06-24 21:07     ` Michael Kjörling
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-06-24  0:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Another thing to think about, and that's only because I'm a 
dumpster-diver, is what's in the unallocated sectors? ;)


On 6/23/2019 8:02 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> On 6/23/19 5:52 PM, Arthur Krewat wrote:
>> Does the AT&T have a serial port?
>>
>> Kermit would be the way I'd go, but since you say you have nothing 
>> with serial ports, that could be a problem. A cheap usb-to-serial 
>> port might be in order. Then you can run Kermit 95 on a Windows 7 or 
>> earlier machine. (might work on later OS's too, but it's not supported)
>>
>> The flip side is how to get Kermit onto the DOS machine.
>
> Does Kermit have an option like INTERLNK & INTERSVR have where you can 
> run a "copy COM1 INTERxxx.EXE" to push the software across the serial 
> port?

Not that I'm aware of. Things like NULs, and ^S can really ruin your 
day. Not to mention ^Z which a DOS copy might interpret as EOF. I only 
ever wrote programs to access the UART directly, but I remember my 
attempts at COPY or other DOS-specific ways of dealing with serial ports 
were never very successful. But that might have had more to do with 
buffer overruns (or in the case of the 8250 in the XT, a lack of a FIFO 
ala-16550 in the first place). Redirecting LPT1 to COM1 using MODE, I 
used to print to an LA100 using hardware handshaking.

>> I used a floppy recovery service a while back to read my old 
>> Commodore 64/PET disks - he was relatively inexpensive, and very 
>> responsive.
>>
>> http://retrofloppy.com/
>
> If the machine is able to read the files without error, then a 
> recovery service might not be necessary.  IMHO it's a question of 
> getting one or more copies onto something else so that the existing 
> floppy isn't the only copy.

Of course, but in some cases, a few $'s thrown at the problem is easier 
than messing around with something you don't want to mess around with ;)

I would be happy to contribute.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-24  0:35     ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
@ 2019-06-24  0:53       ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-06-24  0:56         ` Larry McVoy
  2019-06-24  1:40         ` Bakul Shah
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-06-24  0:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Both the AT&T and the USB cable will be "DTE" (Data Terminal Equipment - 
ala terminal) vs. "DCE" (Data Communication Equipment - ala modem) - 
you'll need a null-modem cable to correct that mismatch. Basically, if 
not using hardware handshake, swap pin 2 and 3. ;)


On 6/23/2019 8:35 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> These are great ideas. I can easily get USB-to-serial (and even 
> USB-to-parallel) cables online that will fit the PC/XT compatible 
> DB-25 plugs on the back of the PC.  I'll have to figure out how to 
> fiddle with the baud rates and such.
>
> I solved the GRF file puzzle.  It turns out it's a text file - a 
> Usenet article. And the same article is in the Google archive.
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/group$3Anet.news.map$20philabs!dal/net.news.map/lhqyD7MOFe8/v0CQFMZyGboJ 
>
>
> There is a cutoff notice at the end, both on the Usenet article and on 
> the floppy file, but that may be intentional.  I'll have some fiddling 
> to do.
>
>     Mary Ann
>
> On 6/23/19 5:02 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
>> On 6/23/19 5:52 PM, Arthur Krewat wrote:
>>> Does the AT&T have a serial port?
>>>
>>> Kermit would be the way I'd go, but since you say you have nothing 
>>> with serial ports, that could be a problem. A cheap usb-to-serial 
>>> port might be in order. Then you can run Kermit 95 on a Windows 7 or 
>>> earlier machine. (might work on later OS's too, but it's not supported)
>>>
>>> The flip side is how to get Kermit onto the DOS machine.
>>
>> Does Kermit have an option like INTERLNK & INTERSVR have where you 
>> can run a "copy COM1 INTERxxx.EXE" to push the software across the 
>> serial port?
>>
>> I wonder what the requirements are for INTERLNK & INTERSVR. I don't 
>> know if they would go back to (MS-)DOS 2.11 or not.
>>
>>> I used a floppy recovery service a while back to read my old 
>>> Commodore 64/PET disks - he was relatively inexpensive, and very 
>>> responsive.
>>>
>>> http://retrofloppy.com/
>>
>> If the machine is able to read the files without error, then a 
>> recovery service might not be necessary.  IMHO it's a question of 
>> getting one or more copies onto something else so that the existing 
>> floppy isn't the only copy.
>>
>>
>>
>


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-24  0:53       ` Arthur Krewat
@ 2019-06-24  0:56         ` Larry McVoy
  2019-06-24  1:12           ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-06-24  1:40         ` Bakul Shah
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2019-06-24  0:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Arthur Krewat; +Cc: tuhs

Arthur's comments bring back some memories.  I probably still have this,
a ribbon serial cable with male and female connectors on both ends and
a breadboard in the middle.  I could hook anything to anything :)

That said, I'm *ecstatic* that I no longer have to deal with serial ports.

On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 08:53:19PM -0400, Arthur Krewat wrote:
> Both the AT&T and the USB cable will be "DTE" (Data Terminal Equipment - ala
> terminal) vs. "DCE" (Data Communication Equipment - ala modem) - you'll need
> a null-modem cable to correct that mismatch. Basically, if not using
> hardware handshake, swap pin 2 and 3. ;)
> 
> 
> On 6/23/2019 8:35 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> >These are great ideas. I can easily get USB-to-serial (and even
> >USB-to-parallel) cables online that will fit the PC/XT compatible DB-25
> >plugs on the back of the PC.?? I'll have to figure out how to fiddle with
> >the baud rates and such.
> >
> >I solved the GRF file puzzle.?? It turns out it's a text file - a Usenet
> >article. And the same article is in the Google archive.
> >
> >https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/group$3Anet.news.map$20philabs!dal/net.news.map/lhqyD7MOFe8/v0CQFMZyGboJ
> >
> >
> >There is a cutoff notice at the end, both on the Usenet article and on the
> >floppy file, but that may be intentional.?? I'll have some fiddling to do.
> >
> >?????? Mary Ann
> >
> >On 6/23/19 5:02 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> >>On 6/23/19 5:52 PM, Arthur Krewat wrote:
> >>>Does the AT&T have a serial port?
> >>>
> >>>Kermit would be the way I'd go, but since you say you have nothing
> >>>with serial ports, that could be a problem. A cheap usb-to-serial port
> >>>might be in order. Then you can run Kermit 95 on a Windows 7 or
> >>>earlier machine. (might work on later OS's too, but it's not
> >>>supported)
> >>>
> >>>The flip side is how to get Kermit onto the DOS machine.
> >>
> >>Does Kermit have an option like INTERLNK & INTERSVR have where you can
> >>run a "copy COM1 INTERxxx.EXE" to push the software across the serial
> >>port?
> >>
> >>I wonder what the requirements are for INTERLNK & INTERSVR. I don't know
> >>if they would go back to (MS-)DOS 2.11 or not.
> >>
> >>>I used a floppy recovery service a while back to read my old Commodore
> >>>64/PET disks - he was relatively inexpensive, and very responsive.
> >>>
> >>>http://retrofloppy.com/
> >>
> >>If the machine is able to read the files without error, then a recovery
> >>service might not be necessary.?? IMHO it's a question of getting one or
> >>more copies onto something else so that the existing floppy isn't the
> >>only copy.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-24  0:56         ` Larry McVoy
@ 2019-06-24  1:12           ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-06-24  1:31             ` William Pechter
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-06-24  1:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: tuhs


On 6/23/2019 8:56 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> Arthur's comments bring back some memories.  I probably still have this,
> a ribbon serial cable with male and female connectors on both ends and
> a breadboard in the middle.  I could hook anything to anything :)
>
> That said, I'm *ecstatic* that I no longer have to deal with serial ports.
>

I did a lot of work with RS232 in the 80's to the point where my friend 
said I had coined a new phrase - basically sounds like 
"Are-Ess-too-turdy-too" said really fast ;) (I'm from NY)

 From serial lines that were slow, going to parallel interfaces for 
printers, parallel SCSI, and a few other parallel interfaces, I thought 
were nice, now we've gone back to SATA, SAS and PCI-E lanes that are 
basically serial interfaces.

I have an RS232 breakout box I use for situations like this. Still 
having to deal with DTE-DCE issues to this day with Cisco, Nortel/Avaya, 
and other network, telecom or even SAN equipment. A recent Dell 
Compellent SC7xxxx I installed came with a USB cable, but it's really a 
USB to RS232 interface built into the controllers. SMH.

ak



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-24  1:12           ` Arthur Krewat
@ 2019-06-24  1:31             ` William Pechter
  2019-06-24  1:51               ` Arthur Krewat
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: William Pechter @ 2019-06-24  1:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 6/23/2019 9:12 PM, Arthur Krewat wrote:
>
> On 6/23/2019 8:56 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
>> Arthur's comments bring back some memories.  I probably still have this,
>> a ribbon serial cable with male and female connectors on both ends and
>> a breadboard in the middle.  I could hook anything to anything :)
>>
>> That said, I'm *ecstatic* that I no longer have to deal with serial 
>> ports.
>>
>
> I did a lot of work with RS232 in the 80's to the point where my 
> friend said I had coined a new phrase - basically sounds like 
> "Are-Ess-too-turdy-too" said really fast ;) (I'm from NY)
>
> From serial lines that were slow, going to parallel interfaces for 
> printers, parallel SCSI, and a few other parallel interfaces, I 
> thought were nice, now we've gone back to SATA, SAS and PCI-E lanes 
> that are basically serial interfaces.
>
> I have an RS232 breakout box I use for situations like this. Still 
> having to deal with DTE-DCE issues to this day with Cisco, 
> Nortel/Avaya, and other network, telecom or even SAN equipment. A 
> recent Dell Compellent SC7xxxx I installed came with a USB cable, but 
> it's really a USB to RS232 interface built into the controllers. SMH.
>
> ak
>
>
I'm still partial to having machines with real serial ports on 'em 
although I have all the USB serial/parallel cables as well.

Still have a couple of desktops with Real RS232 ports just in case.  My 
old K6-2 has both the 5 1/4 and 3 1/2 inch floppies -- just in case.


Bill


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-24  0:40   ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
@ 2019-06-24  1:37     ` William Pechter
  2019-06-24  3:17     ` Jason Stevens
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: William Pechter @ 2019-06-24  1:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 6/23/2019 8:40 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> I put the screenshots (literally - with my phone) here:
>
> http://maryannhorton.com/usenet/
>
> Note the preposterous claim that the 4/15/81 map is the "Backbone" - I 
> have no idea where that came from. The backbone was first proposed 2 
> years later. Clearly this is a full map of Usenet as of 4/15/81.
>
>     Mary Ann
>
> On 6/23/19 4:57 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
>>
>>> I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones 
>>> that fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at 
>>> least for the early ASCII ones.
>>
>> I'd be interested in seeing them.  Do you have a place that you can 
>> upload them to?
>>
>>
>>

I checked my maps and have a version from 1996 and 2000...

Ah for the days of being one hop from the house to !pyramid and the rest 
of the world.

Bill



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-24  0:53       ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-06-24  0:56         ` Larry McVoy
@ 2019-06-24  1:40         ` Bakul Shah
  2019-06-24  3:20           ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Bakul Shah @ 2019-06-24  1:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 20:53:19 -0400 Arthur Krewat <krewat@kilonet.net> wrote:
> Both the AT&T and the USB cable will be "DTE" (Data Terminal Equipment - 
> ala terminal) vs. "DCE" (Data Communication Equipment - ala modem) - 
> you'll need a null-modem cable to correct that mismatch. Basically, if 
> not using hardware handshake, swap pin 2 and 3. ;)

Since mid 80s I have used Dave Yost's wiring scheme that
converts a DB-25 or DB-9 adapter to an RJ-45 socket:

http://yost.com/computers/RJ45-serial/

You wire any DB-25 or DB-9 DCE or DTE male or female adapter
so that the RJ-45 socket has the above pinout.  You figure
out which device needs what kind of adapter and permanently
attach the adapter.  Now you can use a standard "half-twist"
phone cable with 4, 6 or 8 wires and connect anything to
anything.

My last device with a real RS-232 interface (a CP-290 X10
controller) where I used this died 4-5 years ago. I still use
serial ports on RaspberryPis but talk to them via serial<->USB
adapters (these are 3.3V uarts).

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-24  1:31             ` William Pechter
@ 2019-06-24  1:51               ` Arthur Krewat
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-06-24  1:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs



On 6/23/2019 9:31 PM, William Pechter wrote:
> I'm still partial to having machines with real serial ports on 'em 
> although I have all the USB serial/parallel cables as well.
>
> Still have a couple of desktops with Real RS232 ports just in case.  
> My old K6-2 has both the 5 1/4 and 3 1/2 inch floppies -- just in case.

Oh, so do I - one notable thing recently, a few Dell T7910 workstations 
(huge mothers, dual Xeons, plumbed x16 PCI-E interfaces to the second 
CPU, etc) actually had a male DB9 on the back.

I was somewhat impressed.

ak

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-23 23:57 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2019-06-24  0:40   ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
@ 2019-06-24  1:57   ` Steve Nickolas
  2019-06-24  2:09     ` pechter
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Steve Nickolas @ 2019-06-24  1:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

There's always the option of Interlnk if one has PC DOS 5.02 or later, or 
MS-DOS 6.  I think it has a way to send itself over serial to a machine 
with DOS 3.3 or later and I want to say the 6300 came with 3.3.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-24  0:33 ` Larry McVoy
@ 2019-06-24  1:58   ` Steve Nickolas
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Steve Nickolas @ 2019-06-24  1:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: tuhs

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019, Larry McVoy wrote:

> I'd look around for an external floppy drive, plug it into a modern machine,
> download knoppix, boot that and it will read the disk.

I dunno about you but I have had horrible luck with USB drives...to be 
fair, only one of them.

-uso.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-24  1:57   ` Steve Nickolas
@ 2019-06-24  2:09     ` pechter
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: pechter @ 2019-06-24  2:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs, Steve Nickolas

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 487 bytes --]

The 6300 came with 2.11 and there was an upgrade to 3.2.3 IIRC. 

Bill

Sent from MailDroid

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nickolas <usotsuki@buric.co>
To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org
Sent: Sun, 23 Jun 2019 22:06
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps

There's always the option of Interlnk if one has PC DOS 5.02 or later, or 
MS-DOS 6.  I think it has a way to send itself over serial to a machine 
with DOS 3.3 or later and I want to say the 6300 came with 3.3.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 714 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-24  0:40   ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  2019-06-24  1:37     ` William Pechter
@ 2019-06-24  3:17     ` Jason Stevens
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Jason Stevens @ 2019-06-24  3:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mary Ann Horton Gmail, tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3170 bytes --]

I found the posting reference here: 

http://maryannhorton.com/usenet/010180.MAP.jpg
https://utzoo.superglobalmegacorp.com/usenet/news005f1/b12/net.general/1501.txt

http://maryannhorton.com/usenet/032183.BBM.jpg
https://utzoo.superglobalmegacorp.com/usenet/news004f1/b11/net.news/541.txt

http://maryannhorton.com/usenet/040581.MAP.jpg
The map is mentioned in here: http://www.ais.org/~ronda/new.papers/articles/earlyversion.arpanet.txt

As far as BBM files I just find this:

  Name:     Graphics Display System (GDS)
  Purpose:  Image display, conversion, thumbnail catalogs
  Version:  3.1e
  Author:   Photodex Corporation <photodex@netcom.com>
  FTP:      ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/ph/photodex
  CIS:      GO PHOTODEX, GDS Viewing Software (Lib 3)
  Imports:  ANS (ANSI text), BBM, BMF, BMP, CUT/PAL (Dr. Halo), DIB, DL,
            FLC, FLI, FLX, GDS, GIF, GL, HAM, ICO, IFF/ILBM, IMG, JFI,
            JPG (JFIF), LBM, MAC, MP2 & MPA (MPEG Audio), MPG, PCC,
            PCX, RAX, RFX, RLE, SC? (ColoRIX), TGA, TIFF and TXT (text).
  Exports:  ANS (ANSI text), BBM, BMP, CUT/PAL (Dr. Halo), GDS, GIF,
            IFF/ILBM, IMG, JFI, JPG (JFIF), LBM, PCC, PCX, RAX, RFX,
            RLE, SC? (ColoRIX), TGA, and TIFF.
  Features: File viewing, batch conversions, easy thumbnail catalog
            creation with many options, slide shows, automatic
            configuration.  Includes 5000+ lines of hypertext help
            and prints 98 page cross referenced manual.  Supports HGC,
            CGA, EGA, S-EGA, VGA, SVGA, XGA, TIGA and VESA. Registered
            versions print to HP PCL & 100% compatible laser and inkjet
            printers.
  Comments: Used by CompuServe sysops to catalog over 40,000 images
            regularly.  ASP approved shareware.  

No idea if it survives at all.

If you can screen shot the headers of the posts it’s easier to find them in old usenet archives.  The UTZOO stuff is an AMAZING resource.  It’s been incredibly valuable looking for old stuff.  Of course the real fun is in searching it. 

Feel free to wget the BZ2 files from:
https://utzoo.superglobalmegacorp.com/

Just don’t spider into the /usenet directory as it’s all the files extracted and you’ll no doubt be pulling several million files… much easier to get the .tar.bz2 ‘s.


From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 8:40 AM
To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps

I put the screenshots (literally - with my phone) here:

http://maryannhorton.com/usenet/

Note the preposterous claim that the 4/15/81 map is the "Backbone" - I 
have no idea where that came from. The backbone was first proposed 2 
years later. Clearly this is a full map of Usenet as of 4/15/81.

     Mary Ann

On 6/23/19 4:57 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
>
>> I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones 
>> that fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at 
>> least for the early ASCII ones.
>
> I'd be interested in seeing them.  Do you have a place that you can 
> upload them to?
>
>
>


[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 8395 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-24  1:40         ` Bakul Shah
@ 2019-06-24  3:20           ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-06-24  3:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 603 bytes --]

On 6/23/19 7:40 PM, Bakul Shah wrote:
> Since mid 80s I have used Dave Yost's wiring scheme that converts a 
> DB-25 or DB-9 adapter to an RJ-45 socket:
> 
> http://yost.com/computers/RJ45-serial/
> 
> You wire any DB-25 or DB-9 DCE or DTE male or female adapter so 
> that the RJ-45 socket has the above pinout.  You figure out which 
> device needs what kind of adapter and permanently attach the adapter. 
> Now you can use a standard "half-twist" phone cable with 4, 6 or 8 
> wires and connect anything to anything.

+10 for Yost wiring scheme.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


[-- Attachment #2: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature --]
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-24  0:02   ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2019-06-24  0:35     ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  2019-06-24  0:50     ` Arthur Krewat
@ 2019-06-24 21:07     ` Michael Kjörling
  2019-06-24 21:30       ` Steve Nickolas
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Michael Kjörling @ 2019-06-24 21:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 23 Jun 2019 18:02 -0600, from tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org (Grant Taylor via TUHS):
> I wonder what the requirements are for INTERLNK & INTERSVR.  I don't know if
> they would go back to (MS-)DOS 2.11 or not.

The OS/2 Museum claims at [1] that the network redirector was added in
3.0. I'd expect INTERLNK/INTERSVR to need redirector support, and if
that assumption is correct, those wouldn't work on any pre-3.0
versions of Microsoft's DOS (whether MS-DOS or PC-DOS), and support
may be spotty on versions earlier than the one where they were
introduced depending on which exact features are used.

Also, a cursory glance at a MS-DOS 3.1 user's manual and user's
reference that I have lying around does not list INTERLNK/INTERSRV in
the command reference, so those would presumably have come later than
that. Wikipedia appears to confirm this at [2] by claiming they were
introduced in PC-DOS 5.02 / MS-DOS 6.0; the cited source at [3], [4]
simply says "6.0 and later" without specifying a variant.

So, almost certainly not that easy, unfortunately.


[1] http://www.os2museum.com/wp/dos/dos-3-0-3-2/

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_DOS_commands#INTERSVR_and_INTERLNK

[3] http://www.easydos.com/interlink.html

[4] http://www.easydos.com/intersvr.html

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael@kjorling.se
  “The most dangerous thought that you can have as a creative person
              is to think you know what you’re doing.” (Bret Victor)

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-24 21:07     ` Michael Kjörling
@ 2019-06-24 21:30       ` Steve Nickolas
  2019-06-24 21:59         ` Gregg Levine
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Steve Nickolas @ 2019-06-24 21:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Michael Kjörling; +Cc: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 1284 bytes --]

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019, Michael Kjörling wrote:

> The OS/2 Museum claims at [1] that the network redirector was added in
> 3.0. I'd expect INTERLNK/INTERSVR to need redirector support, and if
> that assumption is correct, those wouldn't work on any pre-3.0
> versions of Microsoft's DOS (whether MS-DOS or PC-DOS), and support
> may be spotty on versions earlier than the one where they were
> introduced depending on which exact features are used.

A prototype was introduced in 3.0; it wasn't exactly usable until 3.1 
iirc.

> Also, a cursory glance at a MS-DOS 3.1 user's manual and user's
> reference that I have lying around does not list INTERLNK/INTERSRV in
> the command reference, so those would presumably have come later than
> that. Wikipedia appears to confirm this at [2] by claiming they were
> introduced in PC-DOS 5.02 / MS-DOS 6.0; the cited source at [3], [4]
> simply says "6.0 and later" without specifying a variant.

I can confirm the presence of Interlnk in PC DOS 5.02 as well as MS-DOS 
6.00 (and this is why I specifically mentioned those versions).  I've done 
a lot of research on MS-DOS/PC DOS history. ;p

Interlnk does have a way, as I mentioned, to copy itself over a serial 
cable.  I suppose it probably relies on CTTY and DEBUG or something.

-uso.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-24 21:30       ` Steve Nickolas
@ 2019-06-24 21:59         ` Gregg Levine
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Gregg Levine @ 2019-06-24 21:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tuhs

Hello!
And I can confirm that it does work on DOS 3.30. I wasn't aware that
it had that sort of history, but such are things. I've used it to send
things from a small portable to a laptop the laptop ran DOS 6.22, and
the portable was running 3.30

Mary Anne you own an AT&T PC 6300? Wow, I got my start along the
regular desktop market with one. And their 80286 version as well.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 5:31 PM Steve Nickolas <usotsuki@buric.co> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 24 Jun 2019, Michael Kjörling wrote:
>
> > The OS/2 Museum claims at [1] that the network redirector was added in
> > 3.0. I'd expect INTERLNK/INTERSVR to need redirector support, and if
> > that assumption is correct, those wouldn't work on any pre-3.0
> > versions of Microsoft's DOS (whether MS-DOS or PC-DOS), and support
> > may be spotty on versions earlier than the one where they were
> > introduced depending on which exact features are used.
>
> A prototype was introduced in 3.0; it wasn't exactly usable until 3.1
> iirc.
>
> > Also, a cursory glance at a MS-DOS 3.1 user's manual and user's
> > reference that I have lying around does not list INTERLNK/INTERSRV in
> > the command reference, so those would presumably have come later than
> > that. Wikipedia appears to confirm this at [2] by claiming they were
> > introduced in PC-DOS 5.02 / MS-DOS 6.0; the cited source at [3], [4]
> > simply says "6.0 and later" without specifying a variant.
>
> I can confirm the presence of Interlnk in PC DOS 5.02 as well as MS-DOS
> 6.00 (and this is why I specifically mentioned those versions).  I've done
> a lot of research on MS-DOS/PC DOS history. ;p
>
> Interlnk does have a way, as I mentioned, to copy itself over a serial
> cable.  I suppose it probably relies on CTTY and DEBUG or something.
>
> -uso.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-23 23:10 [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Mary Ann Horton Gmail
                   ` (4 preceding siblings ...)
  2019-06-24  0:33 ` Larry McVoy
@ 2019-06-25  3:54 ` Jonathan Gevaryahu
  2019-06-25 11:21   ` ckeck
  2019-07-09 16:28 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  6 siblings, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Jonathan Gevaryahu @ 2019-06-25  3:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

I'd use something like imagedisk or teledisk or anadisk for reading the 
diskette; this will also preserve the deleted/unused sectors, the boot 
sector and the disk filesystem/metadata, while just copying the files 
off will lose most of this data.

On 6/23/2019 7:10 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran across a 5.25" 
> floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have 
> historical interest.
>
> First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not 
> mine. Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached)
>
> I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up. 
> The floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which 
> are ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which are 
> ASCII Usenet backbone maps up to 1987.
>
> There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims to 
> be a graphical Usenet map.  Does anyone have any idea what GRF is or 
> what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based 
> Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85.
>
> I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just 
> fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would 
> have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS 
> 2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have 
> anything live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with 
> the GRF file.
>
> I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones that 
> fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at least for 
> the early ASCII ones.
>
> Thanks,
>
>     Mary Ann
>
>

-- 
Jonathan Gevaryahu AKA Lord Nightmare
jgevaryahu@gmail.com
jgevaryahu@hotmail.com


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-25  3:54 ` Jonathan Gevaryahu
@ 2019-06-25 11:21   ` ckeck
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: ckeck @ 2019-06-25 11:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jonathan Gevaryahu; +Cc: tuhs

Kermit used to exist for a great many systems, including DOS. A Pi might get that installed via apt-get, or compiled from scratch (might have to do that soon for some other project). As far as connectivity goes, places like Frys sell USB-RS232 Adapters and null-modem cables, means one can avoid messing with the Pi’s IO bits.

Alternatively you could try uucp, but that requires more configuration.

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

> Am 24.06.2019 um 22:54 schrieb Jonathan Gevaryahu <jgevaryahu@hotmail.com>:
> 
> I'd use something like imagedisk or teledisk or anadisk for reading the 
> diskette; this will also preserve the deleted/unused sectors, the boot 
> sector and the disk filesystem/metadata, while just copying the files 
> off will lose most of this data.
> 
>> On 6/23/2019 7:10 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
>> Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran across a 5.25" 
>> floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have 
>> historical interest.
>> 
>> First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not 
>> mine. Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached)
>> 
>> I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up. 
>> The floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which 
>> are ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which are 
>> ASCII Usenet backbone maps up to 1987.
>> 
>> There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims to 
>> be a graphical Usenet map.  Does anyone have any idea what GRF is or 
>> what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based 
>> Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85.
>> 
>> I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just 
>> fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would 
>> have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS 
>> 2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have 
>> anything live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with 
>> the GRF file.
>> 
>> I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones that 
>> fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at least for 
>> the early ASCII ones.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>>     Mary Ann
>> 
>> 
> 
> -- 
> Jonathan Gevaryahu AKA Lord Nightmare
> jgevaryahu@gmail.com
> jgevaryahu@hotmail.com
> 


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-06-23 23:10 [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Mary Ann Horton Gmail
                   ` (5 preceding siblings ...)
  2019-06-25  3:54 ` Jonathan Gevaryahu
@ 2019-07-09 16:28 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  2019-07-09 16:53   ` KatolaZ
                     ` (2 more replies)
  6 siblings, 3 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-07-09 16:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

I've succeeded in copying the files from floppy. Thanks to everyone for 
the great suggestions!

I used a USB-to-serial adapter, combined with PuTTY and the usual serial 
tools (DB-9 to DB-25 adapter, gender changer, and null modem). I even 
dug out my AT&T PC 6300 MS DOS manual for details on writing BAT files 
(although the main script had a bad habit of exiting after the first 
file got copied). I wound up calling a 3 line script separately for each 
file to be copied over, and using PuTTY's scrolling history to save the 
files.

I've collected these and other old Usenet maps here:

http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/

I hope to display these (and hand out a few copies!) in Seattle this week.

Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" 
thing described here:

http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt

and produce the graphical map it contains?

     Mary Ann

On 6/23/19 4:10 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran across a 5.25" 
> floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have 
> historical interest.
>
> First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not 
> mine. Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached)
>
> I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up. 
> The floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which 
> are ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which are 
> ASCII Usenet backbone maps up to 1987.
>
> There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims to 
> be a graphical Usenet map.  Does anyone have any idea what GRF is or 
> what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based 
> Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85.
>
> I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just 
> fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would 
> have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS 
> 2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have 
> anything live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with 
> the GRF file.
>
> I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones that 
> fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at least for 
> the early ASCII ones.
>
> Thanks,
>
>     Mary Ann
>
>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-09 16:28 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
@ 2019-07-09 16:53   ` KatolaZ
  2019-07-09 17:12   ` Henry Bent
  2019-07-15  3:21   ` [TUHS] Historical " Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: KatolaZ @ 2019-07-09 16:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1555 bytes --]

On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 09:28:04AM -0700, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> I've succeeded in copying the files from floppy. Thanks to everyone for the
> great suggestions!
> 
> I used a USB-to-serial adapter, combined with PuTTY and the usual serial
> tools (DB-9 to DB-25 adapter, gender changer, and null modem). I even dug
> out my AT&T PC 6300 MS DOS manual for details on writing BAT files (although
> the main script had a bad habit of exiting after the first file got copied).
> I wound up calling a 3 line script separately for each file to be copied
> over, and using PuTTY's scrolling history to save the files.
> 
> I've collected these and other old Usenet maps here:
> 
> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/
> 
> I hope to display these (and hand out a few copies!) in Seattle this week.
> 
> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" thing
> described here:
> 
> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
> 
> and produce the graphical map it contains?
> 

Hi,

if nobody has a "leroy" at hand, I could give it a go using a slightly
more modern graph drawing stuff (starting from the same files). Just
shout.

HND

Enzo Nicosia

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[     "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[       @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[     @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-09 16:28 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  2019-07-09 16:53   ` KatolaZ
@ 2019-07-09 17:12   ` Henry Bent
  2019-07-09 17:25     ` Seth Morabito
  2019-07-09 17:33     ` Clem Cole
  2019-07-15  3:21   ` [TUHS] Historical " Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Henry Bent @ 2019-07-09 17:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mary Ann Horton Gmail; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 714 bytes --]

On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah@mhorton.net> wrote:

> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy"
> thing described here:
>
> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
>
> and produce the graphical map it contains?
>
>      Mary Ann
>

I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached files
through it.  It ran without errors and produced a file to be fed to
plot(1G).  That file is attached; I can't figure out how to do anything
useful with it.  I ran it through the xterm Tek 4014 mode and just got
garbage.  I'm not really familiar with plot at all, so maybe someone else
can easily produce readable output from this file.

-Henry

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 1169 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: leroy.out --]
[-- Type: application/octet-stream, Size: 40901 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-09 17:12   ` Henry Bent
@ 2019-07-09 17:25     ` Seth Morabito
  2019-07-09 17:34       ` Henry Bent
  2019-07-09 17:33     ` Clem Cole
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Seth Morabito @ 2019-07-09 17:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Henry Bent wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah@mhorton.net> wrote:
>> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" 
>>  thing described here:
>> 
>> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
>> 
>>  and produce the graphical map it contains?
>> 
>>  Mary Ann
> 
> I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached files through it. 

I'm impressed that you were able to find leroy! I just did about fifteen minutes of searching online and was unable to find it. If you wouldn't mind, could you share it with us? I'd enjoy playing with it.

-Seth
--
 Seth Morabito
 Poulsbo, WA
 web@loomcom.com


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-09 17:12   ` Henry Bent
  2019-07-09 17:25     ` Seth Morabito
@ 2019-07-09 17:33     ` Clem Cole
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2019-07-09 17:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Henry Bent; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 952 bytes --]

Henry - what did you try for your parameters to plot?  and did you try:  plot
-T png  which should create a more modern png file.

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 1:13 PM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah@mhorton.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy"
>> thing described here:
>>
>> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
>>
>> and produce the graphical map it contains?
>>
>>      Mary Ann
>>
>
> I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached files
> through it.  It ran without errors and produced a file to be fed to
> plot(1G).  That file is attached; I can't figure out how to do anything
> useful with it.  I ran it through the xterm Tek 4014 mode and just got
> garbage.  I'm not really familiar with plot at all, so maybe someone else
> can easily produce readable output from this file.
>
> -Henry
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-09 17:25     ` Seth Morabito
@ 2019-07-09 17:34       ` Henry Bent
  2019-07-09 19:19         ` Henry Bent
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Henry Bent @ 2019-07-09 17:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Seth Morabito; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1550 bytes --]

On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:26, Seth Morabito <web@loomcom.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Henry Bent wrote:
> > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah@mhorton.net>
> wrote:
> >> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy"
> >>  thing described here:
> >>
> >> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
> >>
> >>  and produce the graphical map it contains?
> >>
> >>  Mary Ann
> >
> > I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached
> files through it.
>
> I'm impressed that you were able to find leroy! I just did about fifteen
> minutes of searching online and was unable to find it. If you wouldn't
> mind, could you share it with us? I'd enjoy playing with it.
>

It's on the 1981 Usenix tape, in the ucol directory:
https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_81.tar.gz

It looks like leroy produces output for an "extended" form of plot; from
the docs:
--
     The plot stream leroy emits is intended for,  and  must
be directed to, an extended UNIX plot filter.  These filters
recognize a number of commands not included in  the  vanilla
seventh  edition  filters,  mostly  dealing with the Hershey
fonts.  The extended plot filters are upward compatible with
their  predecessors  and  have been implemented in a fashion
which makes tailoring new devices filters very  straightfor-
ward.   The  source  code  is available on request.  Filters
currently exist for the Tektronix 4014,  the  Versatec,  the
HP7221A, and the Qume.
--

-Henry

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-09 17:34       ` Henry Bent
@ 2019-07-09 19:19         ` Henry Bent
  2019-07-09 19:41           ` Richard Salz
                             ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Henry Bent @ 2019-07-09 19:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Seth Morabito; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2230 bytes --]

On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:34, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:26, Seth Morabito <web@loomcom.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Henry Bent wrote:
>> > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah@mhorton.net>
>> wrote:
>> >> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy"
>> >>  thing described here:
>> >>
>> >> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
>> >>
>> >>  and produce the graphical map it contains?
>> >>
>> >>  Mary Ann
>> >
>> > I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached
>> files through it.
>>
>> I'm impressed that you were able to find leroy! I just did about fifteen
>> minutes of searching online and was unable to find it. If you wouldn't
>> mind, could you share it with us? I'd enjoy playing with it.
>>
>
> It's on the 1981 Usenix tape, in the ucol directory:
> https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_81.tar.gz
>
> It looks like leroy produces output for an "extended" form of plot; from
> the docs:
> --
>      The plot stream leroy emits is intended for,  and  must
> be directed to, an extended UNIX plot filter.  These filters
> recognize a number of commands not included in  the  vanilla
> seventh  edition  filters,  mostly  dealing with the Hershey
> fonts.  The extended plot filters are upward compatible with
> their  predecessors  and  have been implemented in a fashion
> which makes tailoring new devices filters very  straightfor-
> ward.   The  source  code  is available on request.  Filters
> currently exist for the Tektronix 4014,  the  Versatec,  the
> HP7221A, and the Qume.
> --
>
> -Henry
>

I realized that UCol was using a PDP-11, not a VAX, so I switched to
running things under Ultrix 3.1. Using the extended plot libraries that
UCol provided on the usenix tape, I was able to get Tektronix 4014 output
which I was able to run through a modern tek2plot.  Here are links to the
raw plot file and an SVG, which I think is most useful for this sort of
display.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19mdAYvjlAq7qp5KyJWQrgMwefOfq7XuC/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tX7Qclk-1V5BOrXWKP0bZouf6PoZ3KlK/view?usp=sharing

-Henry

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-09 19:19         ` Henry Bent
@ 2019-07-09 19:41           ` Richard Salz
  2019-07-09 20:09           ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2019-07-09 20:54           ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Richard Salz @ 2019-07-09 19:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Henry Bent; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 151 bytes --]

I remember doing something similar for the "NNTP backbone," with the help
of Brian Reid and his mapmaking postscript tools.  I don't have any or data.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-09 19:19         ` Henry Bent
  2019-07-09 19:41           ` Richard Salz
@ 2019-07-09 20:09           ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2019-07-09 20:58             ` Henry Bent
  2019-07-09 20:54           ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-07-09 20:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 844 bytes --]

On 7/9/19 1:19 PM, Henry Bent wrote:
> I realized that UCol was using a PDP-11, not a VAX, so I switched to 
> running things under Ultrix 3.1. Using the extended plot libraries that 
> UCol provided on the usenix tape, I was able to get Tektronix 4014 
> output which I was able to run through a modern tek2plot.  Here are 
> links to the raw plot file and an SVG, which I think is most useful for 
> this sort of display.
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/19mdAYvjlAq7qp5KyJWQrgMwefOfq7XuC/view?usp=sharing
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tX7Qclk-1V5BOrXWKP0bZouf6PoZ3KlK/view?usp=sharing

Impressive.

Would you mind sharing the command sequence that you used?

I'm trying to piece things together that I've never messed with and 
learn along the way.

Please and thank you.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-09 19:19         ` Henry Bent
  2019-07-09 19:41           ` Richard Salz
  2019-07-09 20:09           ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2019-07-09 20:54           ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  2019-07-09 21:30             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2019-07-09 21:37             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-07-09 20:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2967 bytes --]

Thank you, Henry!

I was able to download the SVG and render it (mostly) legible for the 
map packet for the event tomorrow.

Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but 
it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better.

http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/philabs.26972.txt

Thanks!

     Mary Ann

On 7/9/19 12:19 PM, Henry Bent wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:34, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com 
> <mailto:henry.r.bent@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:26, Seth Morabito <web@loomcom.com
>     <mailto:web@loomcom.com>> wrote:
>
>         On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Henry Bent wrote:
>         > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail
>         <mah@mhorton.net <mailto:mah@mhorton.net>> wrote:
>         >> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do
>         the "leroy"
>         >>  thing described here:
>         >>
>         >> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
>         >>
>         >>  and produce the graphical map it contains?
>         >>
>         >>  Mary Ann
>         >
>         > I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the
>         attached files through it.
>
>         I'm impressed that you were able to find leroy! I just did
>         about fifteen minutes of searching online and was unable to
>         find it. If you wouldn't mind, could you share it with us? I'd
>         enjoy playing with it.
>
>
>     It's on the 1981 Usenix tape, in the ucol directory:
>     https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_81.tar.gz
>
>     It looks like leroy produces output for an "extended" form of
>     plot; from the docs:
>     --
>          The plot stream leroy emits is intended for,  and  must
>     be directed to, an extended UNIX plot filter.  These filters
>     recognize a number of commands not included in  the  vanilla
>     seventh  edition  filters,  mostly  dealing with the Hershey
>     fonts.  The extended plot filters are upward compatible with
>     their  predecessors  and  have been implemented in a fashion
>     which makes tailoring new devices filters very  straightfor-
>     ward.   The  source  code  is available on request. Filters
>     currently exist for the Tektronix 4014,  the  Versatec,  the
>     HP7221A, and the Qume.
>     --
>
>     -Henry
>
> I realized that UCol was using a PDP-11, not a VAX, so I switched to 
> running things under Ultrix 3.1. Using the extended plot libraries 
> that UCol provided on the usenix tape, I was able to get Tektronix 
> 4014 output which I was able to run through a modern tek2plot.  Here 
> are links to the raw plot file and an SVG, which I think is most 
> useful for this sort of display.
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/19mdAYvjlAq7qp5KyJWQrgMwefOfq7XuC/view?usp=sharing
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tX7Qclk-1V5BOrXWKP0bZouf6PoZ3KlK/view?usp=sharing
>
> -Henry
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-09 20:09           ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2019-07-09 20:58             ` Henry Bent
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Henry Bent @ 2019-07-09 20:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2663 bytes --]

On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 16:10, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
wrote:

> On 7/9/19 1:19 PM, Henry Bent wrote:
> > I realized that UCol was using a PDP-11, not a VAX, so I switched to
> > running things under Ultrix 3.1. Using the extended plot libraries that
> > UCol provided on the usenix tape, I was able to get Tektronix 4014
> > output which I was able to run through a modern tek2plot.  Here are
> > links to the raw plot file and an SVG, which I think is most useful for
> > this sort of display.
> >
> >
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/19mdAYvjlAq7qp5KyJWQrgMwefOfq7XuC/view?usp=sharing
> >
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tX7Qclk-1V5BOrXWKP0bZouf6PoZ3KlK/view?usp=sharing
>
> Impressive.
>
> Would you mind sharing the command sequence that you used?
>
> I'm trying to piece things together that I've never messed with and
> learn along the way.
>
> Please and thank you.
>

My apologies, I am sometimes not as careful with documentation as I should
be.  I'm not up for transcribing every last command, but I can walk you
through the basic idea.  This assumes that you have extracted the necessary
files from http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt , which you
have to do by hand because this is before shar.

This was all done in SIMH, using a simulated PDP-11/70 running Ultrix 3.1,
but I believe that what I did would work just as well on 2.xBSD.  The 1981
Usenix tape (
https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_81.tar.gz )
was attached to a virtual TK-50 drive (SIMH can now attach .tar files
directly, with no conversion!) and extracted.  The "ucol" directory
contains the sources for leroy.  The first step is to rebuild the plot
library in leroy/plotsrc. Remove plib and *.o and run make, then back to
the leroy directory, clean and make.  The makefile installs /bin/leroy for
you after building.  Run "/bin/leroy < map.leroy" and it gives you
leroy.out, which is in the special extended plot format that UCol
developed.  You need to convert this to Tek 4014, and there is a program
for doing that in ucol/plot.  But first you have to build the modified
libt4014, which is in ucol/libplot.  "make lilbt4014.a" will get you what
you need there.  Back to ucol/plot, edit the makefile to use your newly
built libt4014 instead of the system's, clean out everything there and
build tek.  But wait!  You still need the Hershey fonts in the right place,
so move the contents of ucol/vroff to be /usr/src/cmd/vroff (or you could
modify the source to put it wherever you want, I guess).  Then finally you
can pipe leroy.out through tek to get a 4014 file, which will be readable
by a modern tek2plot.

-Henry

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-09 20:54           ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
@ 2019-07-09 21:30             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2019-07-09 21:35               ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2019-07-09 21:37             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-07-09 21:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1334 bytes --]

On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but 
> it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better.
> 
> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/philabs.26972.txt

I don't think that file is all of what's needed.

I looked at it and saw the following:

>                                          …Also this news submission is broken
> into two articles, with the graph(1G) compatible stuff separated from that
> which is specific to leroy.
> 
> The files and descriptions of their contents are as follows:
> 
> First article:
> 	---		This message
> 	map.leroy	command file for leroy to plot map
> 	gmap.leroy	command file for leroy to plot map with gnodes file
> 	nodes		leroy commands to draw circles at site locations
> 	gnodes		leroy commands to draw graphic characters at site
> 				locations
> 	sites		leroy commands for labeling nodes with site names
> 
> Second article:
> 	usa.outline	USA outline (graph(1G) format)
> 	usa.states	USA state boundaries (graph(1G) format)
> 	net		news connections between sites (graph(1G) format)

As such, I think the usa.outline, usa.states, and net are missing.  :-(

I've not yet had a chance to look for articles in Usenet archives.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-09 21:30             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2019-07-09 21:35               ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-07-09 21:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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On 7/9/19 3:30 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> I've not yet had a chance to look for articles in Usenet archives.

There's no time like the present.

https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-09 20:54           ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  2019-07-09 21:30             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2019-07-09 21:37             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2019-07-09 21:46               ` Henry Bent
  2019-07-09 22:01               ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-07-09 21:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 673 bytes --]

On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but 
> it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better.

While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following 
articles:

Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2
  - 
https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ

Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2
  - 
https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ

The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-09 21:37             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2019-07-09 21:46               ` Henry Bent
  2019-07-09 22:02                 ` Henry Bent
  2019-07-09 22:01               ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Henry Bent @ 2019-07-09 21:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1009 bytes --]

On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
wrote:

> On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but
> > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better.
>
> While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following
> articles:
>
> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2
>   -
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ
>
> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2
>   -
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ
>
> The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983.
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>
>
Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working away.  Somehow
in going back over what I used to build a working setup I managed to break
my working setup, so I'm trying to fix that to get the next set of files
output.

-Henry

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-09 21:37             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2019-07-09 21:46               ` Henry Bent
@ 2019-07-09 22:01               ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  2019-07-09 22:44                 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-07-09 22:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Thank you, Grant!

I have added these to the archive on stargatemuseum.org/maps.  I will 
add images from Henry as well.

     Mary Ann

On 7/9/19 2:37 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
>> Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but 
>> it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better.
>
> While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following 
> articles:
>
> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2
>  - 
> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ
>
> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2
>  - 
> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ
>
> The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983.
>
>
>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-09 21:46               ` Henry Bent
@ 2019-07-09 22:02                 ` Henry Bent
  2019-07-09 23:23                   ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Henry Bent @ 2019-07-09 22:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1882 bytes --]

On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:46, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
>> > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but
>> > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better.
>>
>> While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following
>> articles:
>>
>> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2
>>   -
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ
>>
>> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2
>>   -
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ
>>
>> The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Grant. . . .
>> unix || die
>>
>>
> Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working away.  Somehow
> in going back over what I used to build a working setup I managed to break
> my working setup, so I'm trying to fix that to get the next set of files
> output.
>
> -Henry
>
>
OK, here's the second set of Usenet maps, again in raw plot and SVG form.
The only difference with the "g" maps, produced with the gmap.leroy script,
seems to be the addition of a few graphical icons.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y6PU1NJv8mdVr1SQsQUDnUjNlq6N2bvv/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JpbMTzhmJD-amLCpYOWMPQCHyCsrC_ck/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRhiPTj1URUGNuxCh-8ERuK0FnQ_i1tk/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1plhCfaP1Uyxu5wAgtQEyPEA88r8JLHIW/view?usp=sharing

I'm pretty sure this is how they would have looked originally, cluttered as
they are.  The nice thing about them being in a vector format, though, is
that you could blow them up to poster size if you wanted to.

-Henry

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-09 22:01               ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
@ 2019-07-09 22:44                 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2019-07-09 23:14                   ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-07-09 22:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 804 bytes --]

On 7/9/19 4:01 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> Thank you, Grant!

You're welcome.

> I have added these to the archive on stargatemuseum.org/maps.  I will 
> add images from Henry as well.

I'm doing some digging on this.  I'm curious to learn how the data gets 
used.  My intention, if possible, is to take the most recent data from 
the UUCP mapping project (currently September '98) and see if it's 
possible to build updated data sets to generate maps from.  }:-)

I'm guessing that the data from the #N, #O, and #L lines will help with 
this.  :-D

I do see multiple blank #L lines in the data I'm looking at.  Maybe it 
will be possible to extract something from the #P lines and convert it 
to pseudo #L lines that can be used.  }:-)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-09 22:44                 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2019-07-09 23:14                   ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  2019-07-10  0:24                     ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-07-09 23:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Well, my intent is to print a packet of Usenet maps to hand out at 
Wednesday night's 50th UNIX Anniversary event in Seattle. I have 15 
copies and a link to the PDF file on stargatemuseum.org. If possible, 
I'd like to add 1 or 2 or 3 of these graphical maps to the packet.

It would also be helpful to have an archived copy of the full UUCP map.  
Stan Barber sent me one some time ago but I misplaced it, and it's not 
coming to his fingertips either. That would obviously be a project for 
later, not a paper handout, but to save on the museum web site.

However, doing a graphical map based on the UUCP map, or even a Usenet 
map after 1987, would likely produce a completely black piece of paper :)

Thanks,

     Mary Ann

On 7/9/19 3:44 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> On 7/9/19 4:01 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
>> Thank you, Grant!
>
> You're welcome.
>
>> I have added these to the archive on stargatemuseum.org/maps.  I will 
>> add images from Henry as well.
>
> I'm doing some digging on this.  I'm curious to learn how the data 
> gets used.  My intention, if possible, is to take the most recent data 
> from the UUCP mapping project (currently September '98) and see if 
> it's possible to build updated data sets to generate maps from.  }:-)
>
> I'm guessing that the data from the #N, #O, and #L lines will help 
> with this.  :-D
>
> I do see multiple blank #L lines in the data I'm looking at. Maybe it 
> will be possible to extract something from the #P lines and convert it 
> to pseudo #L lines that can be used.  }:-)
>
>
>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-09 22:02                 ` Henry Bent
@ 2019-07-09 23:23                   ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  2019-07-10  0:06                     ` Dan Cross
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-07-09 23:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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Thanks, Henry, you found my mistake.

I've corrected the links to the Sept 1983 maps and verified that the 
date in the map is September.  Would you please rerun that one? :)

The extra icons in the legend are nice!

Yes, I agree doing this on a plotter would be better. I recall Brian 
Reid doing just that as a product demo of an HP plotter at one Usenix. I 
had such a poster, I was going to bring it this week but I can't find 
it. Now I know where he got his data...

Thanks,

     Mary Ann

On 7/9/19 3:02 PM, Henry Bent wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:46, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com 
> <mailto:henry.r.bent@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS
>     <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org <mailto:tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>> wrote:
>
>         On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
>         > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks
>         smaller, but
>         > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better.
>
>         While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the
>         following
>         articles:
>
>         Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2
>           -
>         https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ
>
>         Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2
>           -
>         https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ
>
>         The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983.
>
>
>
>         -- 
>         Grant. . . .
>         unix || die
>
>
>     Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working away. 
>     Somehow in going back over what I used to build a working setup I
>     managed to break my working setup, so I'm trying to fix that to
>     get the next set of files output.
>
>     -Henry
>
>
> OK, here's the second set of Usenet maps, again in raw plot and SVG 
> form.  The only difference with the "g" maps, produced with the 
> gmap.leroy script, seems to be the addition of a few graphical icons.
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y6PU1NJv8mdVr1SQsQUDnUjNlq6N2bvv/view?usp=sharing
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JpbMTzhmJD-amLCpYOWMPQCHyCsrC_ck/view?usp=sharing
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRhiPTj1URUGNuxCh-8ERuK0FnQ_i1tk/view?usp=sharing
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1plhCfaP1Uyxu5wAgtQEyPEA88r8JLHIW/view?usp=sharing
>
> I'm pretty sure this is how they would have looked originally, 
> cluttered as they are.  The nice thing about them being in a vector 
> format, though, is that you could blow them up to poster size if you 
> wanted to.
>
> -Henry

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-09 23:23                   ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
@ 2019-07-10  0:06                     ` Dan Cross
  2019-07-10  0:26                       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2019-07-10  0:28                       ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2019-07-10  0:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mary Ann Horton Gmail; +Cc: TUHS main list

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Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a modern(ish) system. Mary Ann, are
you in Renton right now?

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 7:23 PM Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah@mhorton.net>
wrote:

> Thanks, Henry, you found my mistake.
>
> I've corrected the links to the Sept 1983 maps and verified that the date
> in the map is September.  Would you please rerun that one? :)
>
> The extra icons in the legend are nice!
>
> Yes, I agree doing this on a plotter would be better. I recall Brian Reid
> doing just that as a product demo of an HP plotter at one Usenix. I had
> such a poster, I was going to bring it this week but I can't find it. Now I
> know where he got his data...
>
> Thanks,
>
>     Mary Ann
> On 7/9/19 3:02 PM, Henry Bent wrote:
>
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:46, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
>>> > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but
>>> > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better.
>>>
>>> While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following
>>> articles:
>>>
>>> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2
>>>   -
>>>
>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ
>>>
>>> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2
>>>   -
>>>
>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ
>>>
>>> The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Grant. . . .
>>> unix || die
>>>
>>>
>> Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working away.  Somehow
>> in going back over what I used to build a working setup I managed to break
>> my working setup, so I'm trying to fix that to get the next set of files
>> output.
>>
>> -Henry
>>
>>
> OK, here's the second set of Usenet maps, again in raw plot and SVG form.
> The only difference with the "g" maps, produced with the gmap.leroy script,
> seems to be the addition of a few graphical icons.
>
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y6PU1NJv8mdVr1SQsQUDnUjNlq6N2bvv/view?usp=sharing
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JpbMTzhmJD-amLCpYOWMPQCHyCsrC_ck/view?usp=sharing
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRhiPTj1URUGNuxCh-8ERuK0FnQ_i1tk/view?usp=sharing
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1plhCfaP1Uyxu5wAgtQEyPEA88r8JLHIW/view?usp=sharing
>
> I'm pretty sure this is how they would have looked originally, cluttered
> as they are.  The nice thing about them being in a vector format, though,
> is that you could blow them up to poster size if you wanted to.
>
> -Henry
>
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-09 23:14                   ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
@ 2019-07-10  0:24                     ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2019-07-10  1:13                       ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-07-10  0:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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On 7/9/19 5:14 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> However, doing a graphical map based on the UUCP map, or even a Usenet 
> map after 1987, would likely produce a completely black piece of paper :)

Why do you say that?

Based on the raw data that I have, I'm showing 2151 #N lines in the map 
data that I'm looking at from '98.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-10  0:06                     ` Dan Cross
@ 2019-07-10  0:26                       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2019-07-10  0:38                         ` Dan Cross
  2019-07-10  0:28                       ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-07-10  0:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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On 7/9/19 6:06 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
> Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a modern(ish) system.
Please elaborate on what a modern(ish) system means.  OS & version, 
architecture, etc.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-10  0:06                     ` Dan Cross
  2019-07-10  0:26                       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2019-07-10  0:28                       ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-07-10  0:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dan Cross; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3340 bytes --]

Hi, Dan,

My plane gets into SeaTac at 11 AM Wed. I'm still at home and can still 
print these tonight.

Thanks,

     Mary Ann

On 7/9/19 5:06 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
> Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a modern(ish) system. Mary Ann, 
> are you in Renton right now?
>
> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 7:23 PM Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah@mhorton.net 
> <mailto:mah@mhorton.net>> wrote:
>
>     Thanks, Henry, you found my mistake.
>
>     I've corrected the links to the Sept 1983 maps and verified that
>     the date in the map is September.  Would you please rerun that one? :)
>
>     The extra icons in the legend are nice!
>
>     Yes, I agree doing this on a plotter would be better. I recall
>     Brian Reid doing just that as a product demo of an HP plotter at
>     one Usenix. I had such a poster, I was going to bring it this week
>     but I can't find it. Now I know where he got his data...
>
>     Thanks,
>
>         Mary Ann
>
>     On 7/9/19 3:02 PM, Henry Bent wrote:
>>     On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:46, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com
>>     <mailto:henry.r.bent@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS
>>         <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org <mailto:tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>> wrote:
>>
>>             On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
>>             > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It
>>             looks smaller, but
>>             > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow
>>             better.
>>
>>             While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found
>>             the following
>>             articles:
>>
>>             Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2
>>               -
>>             https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ
>>
>>             Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2
>>               -
>>             https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ
>>
>>             The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983.
>>
>>
>>
>>             -- 
>>             Grant. . . .
>>             unix || die
>>
>>
>>         Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working
>>         away.  Somehow in going back over what I used to build a
>>         working setup I managed to break my working setup, so I'm
>>         trying to fix that to get the next set of files output.
>>
>>         -Henry
>>
>>
>>     OK, here's the second set of Usenet maps, again in raw plot and
>>     SVG form.  The only difference with the "g" maps, produced with
>>     the gmap.leroy script, seems to be the addition of a few
>>     graphical icons.
>>
>>     https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y6PU1NJv8mdVr1SQsQUDnUjNlq6N2bvv/view?usp=sharing
>>     https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JpbMTzhmJD-amLCpYOWMPQCHyCsrC_ck/view?usp=sharing
>>     https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRhiPTj1URUGNuxCh-8ERuK0FnQ_i1tk/view?usp=sharing
>>     https://drive.google.com/file/d/1plhCfaP1Uyxu5wAgtQEyPEA88r8JLHIW/view?usp=sharing
>>
>>     I'm pretty sure this is how they would have looked originally,
>>     cluttered as they are.  The nice thing about them being in a
>>     vector format, though, is that you could blow them up to poster
>>     size if you wanted to.
>>
>>     -Henry
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-10  0:26                       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2019-07-10  0:38                         ` Dan Cross
  2019-07-10  0:49                           ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2019-07-10  0:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 430 bytes --]

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 8:26 PM Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
wrote:

> On 7/9/19 6:06 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
> > Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a modern(ish) system.
> Please elaborate on what a modern(ish) system means.  OS & version,
> architecture, etc.
>

Sure; OpenBSD 6.5 on x86_64. I got a lot of warnings, but it produced an
executable that didn't immediately dump core when I ran it.

        - Dan C.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-10  0:38                         ` Dan Cross
@ 2019-07-10  0:49                           ` Larry McVoy
  2019-07-10  0:57                             ` Clem Cole
  2019-07-10  1:02                             ` [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Arthur Krewat
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2019-07-10  0:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dan Cross; +Cc: TUHS main list, Grant Taylor

On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 08:38:05PM -0400, Dan Cross wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 8:26 PM Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
> wrote:
> 
> > On 7/9/19 6:06 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
> > > Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a modern(ish) system.
> > Please elaborate on what a modern(ish) system means.  OS & version,
> > architecture, etc.
> >
> 
> Sure; OpenBSD 6.5 on x86_64. I got a lot of warnings, but it produced an
> executable that didn't immediately dump core when I ran it.

Old programs didn't ask a lot of the OS so it isn't surprising that it 
worked.  It's cool when it does though, reminds me of bringing up X11
back in the day.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-10  0:49                           ` Larry McVoy
@ 2019-07-10  0:57                             ` Clem Cole
  2019-07-10  1:26                               ` [TUHS] V0 B Compiler Warren Toomey
  2019-07-10  1:02                             ` [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Arthur Krewat
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2019-07-10  0:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: TUHS main list, Grant Taylor

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 808 bytes --]

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 8:49 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

> Old programs didn't ask a lot of the OS so it isn't surprising that it
> worked.

I'd modify that to say, that old programs often ask less of *the system* -
although they tend to have assumptions about the environment (like the
target processor) embedded/implied in the code.  I think the single
enhancement to C was adding strong typing and explicit typing in the
function calls.   By adding those two things to old code, I have brought
them forward.

Similarly, I have taken modern code and my careful use of the preprocessor
be able to get it run on as far back as the 5th edition without real
hacks.   And with what Warren and Phil did we even got pseudo C to compile
back on V0.


> It's cool when it does though,

Indeed - very cool.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-10  0:49                           ` Larry McVoy
  2019-07-10  0:57                             ` Clem Cole
@ 2019-07-10  1:02                             ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-07-10  1:19                               ` Larry McVoy
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-07-10  1:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 7/9/2019 8:49 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> reminds me of bringing up X11
> back in the day.
Oh boy, the output from that make, hoo-weee....



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-10  0:24                     ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2019-07-10  1:13                       ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-07-10  1:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


On 7/9/19 5:24 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> On 7/9/19 5:14 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
>> However, doing a graphical map based on the UUCP map, or even a 
>> Usenet map after 1987, would likely produce a completely black piece 
>> of paper :)
>
> Why do you say that?
>
> Based on the raw data that I have, I'm showing 2151 #N lines in the 
> map data that I'm looking at from '98.
>
Well, there are 320 node names in the 3/83 graphic, and it's already 
bordering on illegible.  7 times as many, especially with the 
concentrations in NJ, Chicago, Boston, etc, it would have to be pretty 
creative.  The Shannon map of 7/84 had over 900 hosts (just on Usenet, 
not including UUCP only) and they divided it into 9 sections. I suspect 
there were a lot more than 2100 UUCP hosts at its peak.

I haven't had much luck doing searches on Google Groups - it often just 
gives me the first page and refuses to sort by date. Is there a good way 
to mine all the postings to a particular newsgroup, or all of them in a 
particular year?

     Mary Ann



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-10  1:02                             ` [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Arthur Krewat
@ 2019-07-10  1:19                               ` Larry McVoy
  2019-07-10  1:34                                 ` Dave Horsfall
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2019-07-10  1:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Arthur Krewat; +Cc: tuhs

On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 09:02:50PM -0400, Arthur Krewat wrote:
> On 7/9/2019 8:49 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> >reminds me of bringing up X11
> >back in the day.
> Oh boy, the output from that make, hoo-weee....

Indeed.  Bringing up X11 when I knew nothing about graphics drivers was,
um, interesting.  It did teach me to just try #ifdef-ing out the code
that didn't work, sort of a prune the tree approach, that helped me
later in life.  Things don't have to be perfect, a working window
system that fails in some corner case I don't hit is better than
nothing by a long shot.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] V0 B Compiler
  2019-07-10  0:57                             ` Clem Cole
@ 2019-07-10  1:26                               ` Warren Toomey
  2019-07-10  1:29                                 ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Warren Toomey @ 2019-07-10  1:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 08:57:19PM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
>    Similarly, I have taken modern code and my careful use of the
>    preprocessor be able to get it run on as far back as the 5th edition
>    without real hacks.   And with what Warren and Phil did we even got
>    pseudo C to compile back on V0.

Ah, I need to give credit where it's due here. Phil and I brought the V0
system back. Robert Swierczek brought the B compiler back.

Cheers, Warren

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] V0 B Compiler
  2019-07-10  1:26                               ` [TUHS] V0 B Compiler Warren Toomey
@ 2019-07-10  1:29                                 ` Clem Cole
  2019-07-10  1:32                                   ` [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2019-07-10  1:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warren Toomey; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 590 bytes --]

Thanks    Robert, sorry for the error ;-)

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:27 PM Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 08:57:19PM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> >    Similarly, I have taken modern code and my careful use of the
> >    preprocessor be able to get it run on as far back as the 5th edition
> >    without real hacks.   And with what Warren and Phil did we even got
> >    pseudo C to compile back on V0.
>
> Ah, I need to give credit where it's due here. Phil and I brought the V0
> system back. Robert Swierczek brought the B compiler back.
>
> Cheers, Warren
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources
  2019-07-10  1:29                                 ` Clem Cole
@ 2019-07-10  1:32                                   ` Clem Cole
  2019-07-10  2:51                                     ` Charles Anthony
  2019-07-10 12:51                                     ` Nelson H. F. Beebe
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2019-07-10  1:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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Mark's looking at plot got me thinking, does anyone know if any version of
the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived?   I have googled around and
found a few manuals, but never the (Fortran) code itself.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
  2019-07-10  1:19                               ` Larry McVoy
@ 2019-07-10  1:34                                 ` Dave Horsfall
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2019-07-10  1:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, Larry McVoy wrote:

> Indeed.  Bringing up X11 when I knew nothing about graphics drivers was, 
> um, interesting.  It did teach me to just try #ifdef-ing out the code 
> that didn't work, sort of a prune the tree approach, that helped me 
> later in life.  Things don't have to be perfect, a working window system 
> that fails in some corner case I don't hit is better than nothing by a 
> long shot.

Back in the 80s, our idiot of a manager just dumped an Xterm on us, 
expecting us to get it to work ASAP for a demo..

Oh the fun we had, seeing as our knowledge of "X" at the time was confined 
to knowing how to spell it...  I even told him that, and he wasn't amused 
:-)

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources
  2019-07-10  1:32                                   ` [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources Clem Cole
@ 2019-07-10  2:51                                     ` Charles Anthony
  2019-07-10  3:00                                       ` Charles Anthony
  2019-07-10  3:01                                       ` Clem Cole
  2019-07-10 12:51                                     ` Nelson H. F. Beebe
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Charles Anthony @ 2019-07-10  2:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 6:33 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

> Mark's looking at plot got me thinking, does anyone know if any version of
> the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived?   I have googled around and
> found a few manuals, but never the (Fortran) code itself.
>

I have a copy, but I don't remember where I found it...

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cpZvaNXa5v_0wrZfvJ-apWRdUqhvoNg7

-- Charles

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources
  2019-07-10  2:51                                     ` Charles Anthony
@ 2019-07-10  3:00                                       ` Charles Anthony
  2019-07-10  3:01                                       ` Clem Cole
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Charles Anthony @ 2019-07-10  3:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 603 bytes --]

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 7:51 PM Charles Anthony <charles.unix.pro@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 6:33 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>
>> Mark's looking at plot got me thinking, does anyone know if any version
>> of the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived?   I have googled around and
>> found a few manuals, but never the (Fortran) code itself.
>>
>
> I have a copy, but I don't remember where I found it...
>
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cpZvaNXa5v_0wrZfvJ-apWRdUqhvoNg7
>
>
I found it at bitsavers:

http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix/PLOT_10/TCS_3.0/

-- Charles

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources
  2019-07-10  2:51                                     ` Charles Anthony
  2019-07-10  3:00                                       ` Charles Anthony
@ 2019-07-10  3:01                                       ` Clem Cole
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2019-07-10  3:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Charles Anthony; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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Cool many thanks.

FYI: it's a great start.  It just the Terminal Control System part, there
was about 5 or 6 subsystems, IIRC.  That's a fairly early version (1974)
also, since its Fortran-IV.   Later versions in the late 70's/early 80s
were in MORTRAN, BTW.  I remember an internal argument of the folks in the
terminal group about if Plot 10's GKS system should be done in C - but
FORTRAN still rules the day so, MORTRAN was the compromise.

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 10:51 PM Charles Anthony <charles.unix.pro@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 6:33 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>
>> Mark's looking at plot got me thinking, does anyone know if any version
>> of the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived?   I have googled around and
>> found a few manuals, but never the (Fortran) code itself.
>>
>
> I have a copy, but I don't remember where I found it...
>
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cpZvaNXa5v_0wrZfvJ-apWRdUqhvoNg7
>
> -- Charles
>
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources
  2019-07-10  1:32                                   ` [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources Clem Cole
  2019-07-10  2:51                                     ` Charles Anthony
@ 2019-07-10 12:51                                     ` Nelson H. F. Beebe
  2019-07-10 14:34                                       ` Clem cole
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: Nelson H. F. Beebe @ 2019-07-10 12:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> asks on Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:32:31 -0400:

>> does anyone know if any version of the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived? 

In our PDP-10 TOPS-20 archive of what was then utah-science, later
science.utah.edu (a domain now owned by our Dean's office), I find
these files:

    % ls -log
    total 3768
    -rw-rw-r-- 1  145899 May 16  1985 agii.for
    -rw-rw-r-- 1  245190 May 16  1985 ezgr27.for
    -rw-rw-r-- 1 2132822 May 16  1985 igl.for
    -rw-rw-r-- 1  289730 May 16  1985 p4663.for
    -rw-rw-r-- 1  129276 May 16  1985 p4663.ver
    -rw-rw-r-- 1  149038 May 16  1985 ploter.for
    -rw-rw-r-- 1  210033 May 16  1985 plt10.for
    -rw-rw-r-- 1     470 May 16  1985 plt10t.for

    % wc -l *
       1815 agii.for
       7251 ezgr27.for
      26011 igl.for
       3577 p4663.for
       1596 p4663.ver
       1845 ploter.for
       2763 plt10.for
	 27 plt10t.for
      44885 total

    % head -16 agii.for
    C***********************************************************************00000010
    C*                                                                     *00000020
    C*                4010A02 PLOT 10 ADVANCED GRAPHING II                 *00000030
    C*                                LEVEL 1                              *00000040
    C*                                                                     *00000050
    C*         062-2948-01 STD. SOURCE CARD DECK, 026 PUNCH                *00000060
    C*         062-2949-01 STD. SOURCE LISTING                             *00000070
    C*                                                                     *00000080
    C*            C  COPYRIGHT 1976 TEKTRONIX, INC.                        *00000090
    C*               ALL RIGHTS RESERVED                                   *00000100
    C*                                                                     *00000110
    C*               TEKTRONIX, INC.                                       *00000120
    C*               P. O. BOX 500                                         *00000130
    C*               BEAVERTON, OREGON 97077                               *00000140
    C*                                                                     *00000150
    C***********************************************************************00000160

The Bitsavers code at

    http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix/PLOT_10/TCS_3.0/plot10.ftn

has a 1974 copyright date, so our code is two years newer.

The question is, what is the copyright status of this code?  Has
Tektronix (https://www.tek.com/) made any statements about releasing
it to the public?

I no longer remember the conditions under which we got the PLOT 10
code, and any licensing paperwork has long since gone to recycling.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe                    Tel: +1 801 581 5254                  -
- University of Utah                    FAX: +1 801 581 4148                  -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB    Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu  -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233                       beebe@acm.org  beebe@computer.org -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA    URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources
  2019-07-10 12:51                                     ` Nelson H. F. Beebe
@ 2019-07-10 14:34                                       ` Clem cole
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Clem cole @ 2019-07-10 14:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Nelson H. F. Beebe; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Nelson.  Good question. The status is unknown last I knew.  I’ve personally lost track of anyone at Tek that might have able to help.  

Also your version seems to be pure FORTRAN-IV not the mortran sources.  Part of my question is I’m not sure if they shipped the pre or post processed version.  Somebody like Ed Post (of the old “Real Programmers don’t write Pascal, they use FORTRAN”) might remember. 

Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 

> On Jul 10, 2019, at 5:51 AM, Nelson H. F. Beebe <beebe@math.utah.edu> wrote:
> 
> Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> asks on Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:32:31 -0400:
> 
>>> does anyone know if any version of the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived? 
> 
> In our PDP-10 TOPS-20 archive of what was then utah-science, later
> science.utah.edu (a domain now owned by our Dean's office), I find
> these files:
> 
>    % ls -log
>    total 3768
>    -rw-rw-r-- 1  145899 May 16  1985 agii.for
>    -rw-rw-r-- 1  245190 May 16  1985 ezgr27.for
>    -rw-rw-r-- 1 2132822 May 16  1985 igl.for
>    -rw-rw-r-- 1  289730 May 16  1985 p4663.for
>    -rw-rw-r-- 1  129276 May 16  1985 p4663.ver
>    -rw-rw-r-- 1  149038 May 16  1985 ploter.for
>    -rw-rw-r-- 1  210033 May 16  1985 plt10.for
>    -rw-rw-r-- 1     470 May 16  1985 plt10t.for
> 
>    % wc -l *
>       1815 agii.for
>       7251 ezgr27.for
>      26011 igl.for
>       3577 p4663.for
>       1596 p4663.ver
>       1845 ploter.for
>       2763 plt10.for
>     27 plt10t.for
>      44885 total
> 
>    % head -16 agii.for
>    C***********************************************************************00000010
>    C*                                                                     *00000020
>    C*                4010A02 PLOT 10 ADVANCED GRAPHING II                 *00000030
>    C*                                LEVEL 1                              *00000040
>    C*                                                                     *00000050
>    C*         062-2948-01 STD. SOURCE CARD DECK, 026 PUNCH                *00000060
>    C*         062-2949-01 STD. SOURCE LISTING                             *00000070
>    C*                                                                     *00000080
>    C*            C  COPYRIGHT 1976 TEKTRONIX, INC.                        *00000090
>    C*               ALL RIGHTS RESERVED                                   *00000100
>    C*                                                                     *00000110
>    C*               TEKTRONIX, INC.                                       *00000120
>    C*               P. O. BOX 500                                         *00000130
>    C*               BEAVERTON, OREGON 97077                               *00000140
>    C*                                                                     *00000150
>    C***********************************************************************00000160
> 
> The Bitsavers code at
> 
>    http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix/PLOT_10/TCS_3.0/plot10.ftn
> 
> has a 1974 copyright date, so our code is two years newer.
> 
> The question is, what is the copyright status of this code?  Has
> Tektronix (https://www.tek.com/) made any statements about releasing
> it to the public?
> 
> I no longer remember the conditions under which we got the PLOT 10
> code, and any licensing paperwork has long since gone to recycling.
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> - Nelson H. F. Beebe                    Tel: +1 801 581 5254                  -
> - University of Utah                    FAX: +1 801 581 4148                  -
> - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB    Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu  -
> - 155 S 1400 E RM 233                       beebe@acm.org  beebe@computer.org -
> - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA    URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources
@ 2019-07-10 16:38 jnc
  2019-07-10 17:05 ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 69+ messages in thread
From: jnc @ 2019-07-10 16:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: beebe; +Cc: tuhs, jnc

    > From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe"

    > In our PDP-10 TOPS-20 archive of what was then utah-science .. I find
    > these files:

Thanks very much for doing that search, and congratulations on finding them!

Not that I have the slightest interest/use in the results, but it's so good to
see historical software being saved.

    Noel

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources
  2019-07-10 16:38 [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources jnc
@ 2019-07-10 17:05 ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2019-07-10 17:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noel Chiappa; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 453 bytes --]

+1  Thank you

On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 12:39 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe"
>
>     > In our PDP-10 TOPS-20 archive of what was then utah-science .. I find
>     > these files:
>
> Thanks very much for doing that search, and congratulations on finding
> them!
>
> Not that I have the slightest interest/use in the results, but it's so
> good to
> see historical software being saved.
>
>     Noel
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Historical Usenet maps
  2019-07-09 16:28 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  2019-07-09 16:53   ` KatolaZ
  2019-07-09 17:12   ` Henry Bent
@ 2019-07-15  3:21   ` " Mary Ann Horton Gmail
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 69+ messages in thread
From: Mary Ann Horton Gmail @ 2019-07-15  3:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Thanks to everyone who came to the celebration in Seattle!

If you missed it and want your own copy of historical (old) Usenet maps, 
you can download it now.

I have updated the PDF online to include everything that was in the 
display copy. The full copy is at http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/ .  
ThisPDF  is intended to be printed, because most of the pages are in 
landscape.

     Mary Ann

On 7/9/19 9:28 AM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> I've succeeded in copying the files from floppy. Thanks to everyone 
> for the great suggestions!
>
> I used a USB-to-serial adapter, combined with PuTTY and the usual 
> serial tools (DB-9 to DB-25 adapter, gender changer, and null modem). 
> I even dug out my AT&T PC 6300 MS DOS manual for details on writing 
> BAT files (although the main script had a bad habit of exiting after 
> the first file got copied). I wound up calling a 3 line script 
> separately for each file to be copied over, and using PuTTY's 
> scrolling history to save the files.
>
> I've collected these and other old Usenet maps here:
>
> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/
>
> I hope to display these (and hand out a few copies!) in Seattle this 
> week.
>
> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" 
> thing described here:
>
> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
>
> and produce the graphical map it contains?
>
>     Mary Ann
>
> On 6/23/19 4:10 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
>> Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran across a 5.25" 
>> floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have 
>> historical interest.
>>
>> First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not 
>> mine. Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached)
>>
>> I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up. 
>> The floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which 
>> are ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which 
>> are ASCII Usenet backbone maps up to 1987.
>>
>> There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims 
>> to be a graphical Usenet map.  Does anyone have any idea what GRF is 
>> or what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based 
>> Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85.
>>
>> I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just 
>> fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would 
>> have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS 
>> 2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have 
>> anything live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with 
>> the GRF file.
>>
>> I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones 
>> that fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at 
>> least for the early ASCII ones.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>     Mary Ann
>>
>>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 69+ messages in thread

end of thread, back to index

Thread overview: 69+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2019-06-23 23:10 [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Mary Ann Horton Gmail
2019-06-23 23:52 ` Arthur Krewat
2019-06-24  0:02   ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2019-06-24  0:35     ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
2019-06-24  0:53       ` Arthur Krewat
2019-06-24  0:56         ` Larry McVoy
2019-06-24  1:12           ` Arthur Krewat
2019-06-24  1:31             ` William Pechter
2019-06-24  1:51               ` Arthur Krewat
2019-06-24  1:40         ` Bakul Shah
2019-06-24  3:20           ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2019-06-24  0:50     ` Arthur Krewat
2019-06-24 21:07     ` Michael Kjörling
2019-06-24 21:30       ` Steve Nickolas
2019-06-24 21:59         ` Gregg Levine
2019-06-23 23:57 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2019-06-24  0:40   ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
2019-06-24  1:37     ` William Pechter
2019-06-24  3:17     ` Jason Stevens
2019-06-24  1:57   ` Steve Nickolas
2019-06-24  2:09     ` pechter
2019-06-24  0:03 ` Theodore Ts'o
2019-06-24  0:19 ` Seth Morabito
2019-06-24  0:33 ` Larry McVoy
2019-06-24  1:58   ` Steve Nickolas
2019-06-25  3:54 ` Jonathan Gevaryahu
2019-06-25 11:21   ` ckeck
2019-07-09 16:28 ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
2019-07-09 16:53   ` KatolaZ
2019-07-09 17:12   ` Henry Bent
2019-07-09 17:25     ` Seth Morabito
2019-07-09 17:34       ` Henry Bent
2019-07-09 19:19         ` Henry Bent
2019-07-09 19:41           ` Richard Salz
2019-07-09 20:09           ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2019-07-09 20:58             ` Henry Bent
2019-07-09 20:54           ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
2019-07-09 21:30             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2019-07-09 21:35               ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2019-07-09 21:37             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2019-07-09 21:46               ` Henry Bent
2019-07-09 22:02                 ` Henry Bent
2019-07-09 23:23                   ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
2019-07-10  0:06                     ` Dan Cross
2019-07-10  0:26                       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2019-07-10  0:38                         ` Dan Cross
2019-07-10  0:49                           ` Larry McVoy
2019-07-10  0:57                             ` Clem Cole
2019-07-10  1:26                               ` [TUHS] V0 B Compiler Warren Toomey
2019-07-10  1:29                                 ` Clem Cole
2019-07-10  1:32                                   ` [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources Clem Cole
2019-07-10  2:51                                     ` Charles Anthony
2019-07-10  3:00                                       ` Charles Anthony
2019-07-10  3:01                                       ` Clem Cole
2019-07-10 12:51                                     ` Nelson H. F. Beebe
2019-07-10 14:34                                       ` Clem cole
2019-07-10  1:02                             ` [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps Arthur Krewat
2019-07-10  1:19                               ` Larry McVoy
2019-07-10  1:34                                 ` Dave Horsfall
2019-07-10  0:28                       ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
2019-07-09 22:01               ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
2019-07-09 22:44                 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2019-07-09 23:14                   ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
2019-07-10  0:24                     ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2019-07-10  1:13                       ` Mary Ann Horton Gmail
2019-07-09 17:33     ` Clem Cole
2019-07-15  3:21   ` [TUHS] Historical " Mary Ann Horton Gmail
2019-07-10 16:38 [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources jnc
2019-07-10 17:05 ` Clem Cole

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