* Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers @ 2001-10-18 5:11 Matt Armstrong 2001-10-18 5:43 ` Paul Jarc 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-18 5:11 UTC (permalink / raw) I forget the status of Gnus support for generating Mail-Followup-To: headers. Is somebody planning to implement this? I took a several month long hiatus from Gnus to try to learn what all the fuss with mutt was all about. I'm back (addicted to auto scoring and automatic message expiration), but I miss mutt's ability to generate Mail-Followup-To:. It seems like it would be fairly easy to mimic mutt's feature set here through message-send-hook. If nobody steps forward, I will probably give it a try. -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-18 5:11 Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-18 5:43 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-18 16:08 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-18 16:36 ` Josh Huber 0 siblings, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-18 5:43 UTC (permalink / raw) Matt Armstrong <matt@lickey.com> wrote: > I forget the status of Gnus support for generating Mail-Followup-To: > headers. Is somebody planning to implement this? I am. I wasn't planning to do it as a plain hook function because I figured it should be on by default, but I have the impression hook variables ought to be nil by default. That will make it a bit hairier, but still doable. I'm thinking something in gnus-msg.el, during initialization of a new message buffer, can detect when there is a to-list or to-address parameter for the current group; if so, it'll add a header field like "X-Gnus-Generate-MFT: yes" (by default; it could be disabled by setting some variable). Then when we send the message, if that field is present, we remove it, and if there is also no existing MFT, then we add one based on To+Cc. If you want to have a go at it, feel free. I'm not sure when I'd get around to it. paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-18 5:43 ` Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-18 16:08 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-18 16:19 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-18 16:59 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-18 16:36 ` Josh Huber 1 sibling, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-18 16:08 UTC (permalink / raw) prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes: > Matt Armstrong <matt@lickey.com> wrote: >> I forget the status of Gnus support for generating Mail-Followup-To: >> headers. Is somebody planning to implement this? > > I am. I wasn't planning to do it as a plain hook function because I > figured it should be on by default, but I have the impression hook > variables ought to be nil by default. That will make it a bit > hairier, but still doable. > > I'm thinking something in gnus-msg.el, during initialization of a > new message buffer, can detect when there is a to-list or to-address > parameter for the current group; if so, it'll add a header field > like "X-Gnus-Generate-MFT: yes" (by default; it could be disabled by > setting some variable). Then when we send the message, if that > field is present, we remove it, and if there is also no existing > MFT, then we add one based on To+Cc. > > If you want to have a go at it, feel free. I'm not sure when I'd > get around to it. I think the hardest part is determining which lists the user is subscribed to. I don't think to-address is sufficient. I have several groups into which multiple mailing lists get dumped. For example, all my work e-mail gets dumped into a single group, but there are 10-20 frequently used work mailing lists. And very low volume lists just end up in my main inbox group. So the to-address parameter is not sufficient to express all the lists I'm on. And if we're not relying directly on to-address, I think this can be put into the 'message' package. I was thinking of a global variable holding all subscribed lists -- just a list of addresses: (setq message-subscribed-addresses '("ding" "postfix-users")) There could even be utility functions that read ~/.lists (for Qmail users) and that goes through all the Gnus group parameters looking for to-address parameters, as well as extracting stuff from gnus-parameter-to-address-alist. This could be controlled by a list of functions that produce additional addresses: (setq message-subscribed-addresses-functions '(message-subscribed-addresses-qmail gnus-get-subscribed-addresses)) With this list available, all Mail-Followup-To: generation can be done right before the message is sent. -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-18 16:08 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-18 16:19 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-18 16:41 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-18 16:59 ` Paul Jarc 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2001-10-18 16:19 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Matt Armstrong <matt@lickey.com> writes: > I think the hardest part is determining which lists the user is > subscribed to. I don't think to-address is sufficient. MFT explicitly lists all addresses that should be on To/Cc. So if MFT is present, it's easy to DTRT. And if MFT is not present, then the user probably does not mind to receive a copy, so we just put them on the auto-generated MFT. kai -- GNU/Linux provides a nice `poweroff' command, but where is `poweron'? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-18 16:19 ` Kai Großjohann @ 2001-10-18 16:41 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-18 18:17 ` Kai Großjohann 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-18 16:41 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) wrote: > Matt Armstrong <matt@lickey.com> writes: >> I think the hardest part is determining which lists the user is >> subscribed to. I don't think to-address is sufficient. > > MFT explicitly lists all addresses that should be on To/Cc. So if MFT > is present, it's easy to DTRT. If MFT is present in the previous message, then yes, we use that to construct To+Cc in our response. But the question here is how to determine whether to add MFT to our message as well. It seems the best way to determine that is to check whether any of the addressees is a mailing list. It might be useful to generate MFT whenever the previous message had it, but that wouldn't cover all the cases we want. Depending how we cover other cases, it might not be necessary. paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-18 16:41 ` Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-18 18:17 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-18 23:19 ` Maciej Matysiak 2001-10-19 4:48 ` Per Abrahamsen 0 siblings, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2001-10-18 18:17 UTC (permalink / raw) prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes: > If MFT is present in the previous message, then yes, we use that to > construct To+Cc in our response. But the question here is how to > determine whether to add MFT to our message as well. It seems the > best way to determine that is to check whether any of the addressees > is a mailing list. Ah, I see. And we can assume that a to-list or to-address group parameter means it's a mailing list. Right. But what to do in the other cases? Of course, the easy way out is an mft group parameter :-) kai -- GNU/Linux provides a nice `poweroff' command, but where is `poweron'? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-18 18:17 ` Kai Großjohann @ 2001-10-18 23:19 ` Maciej Matysiak 2001-10-19 9:03 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-19 4:48 ` Per Abrahamsen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Maciej Matysiak @ 2001-10-18 23:19 UTC (permalink / raw) On the 18th of October 2001 at 20:17, Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) wrote: > And we can assume that a to-list or to-address group parameter means > it's a mailing list. Right. But what to do in the other cases? I don't use 'to-list' nor 'to-address' parameters at all (my mail is split into groups named like group-year-month, it's a pain to add such parameters to 30+ groups every month). I'd like the new procedure look as well for headers added to mailinglists messages: 'Precedence: list', 'Mailing-List:' and probably more. Is it doable? m.m. (very happy after adding mule-ucs patch for xemacs :)) -- use gnus not guns! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-18 23:19 ` Maciej Matysiak @ 2001-10-19 9:03 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-11-01 21:54 ` Maciej Matysiak 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2001-10-19 9:03 UTC (permalink / raw) Maciej Matysiak <phoner@blah.pl> writes: > I don't use 'to-list' nor 'to-address' parameters at all (my mail is split > into groups named like group-year-month, it's a pain to add such parameters > to 30+ groups every month). Only because you don't know about the variable gnus-parameters :-) There, you can specify regular expressions and have the parameters take effect for all group names matching that regular expression. kai -- GNU/Linux provides a nice `poweroff' command, but where is `poweron'? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 9:03 ` Kai Großjohann @ 2001-11-01 21:54 ` Maciej Matysiak 2001-11-01 22:10 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-02 8:31 ` Kai Großjohann 0 siblings, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Maciej Matysiak @ 2001-11-01 21:54 UTC (permalink / raw) On the 19th of October 2001 at 11:03, Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) wrote: >> I don't use 'to-list' nor 'to-address' parameters at all (my mail is >> split into groups named like group-year-month, it's a pain to add >> such parameters to 30+ groups every month). > Only because you don't know about the variable gnus-parameters :-) right :) ok, my homework is done. now i have something like: (setq gnus-parameters '( ("ding-l-.*" (to-address . "ding@gnus.org") (to-list . "ding@gnus.org")))) it works nice, but why the list address is not visible in 'gnus customize' buffer (in fields 'to address' and 'to list')? (also, this buffer is not killed after submiting the changes with 'done' button). m.m. -- use gnus not guns! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-11-01 21:54 ` Maciej Matysiak @ 2001-11-01 22:10 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-02 1:03 ` Samuel Padgett 2001-11-07 13:30 ` Maciej Matysiak 2001-11-02 8:31 ` Kai Großjohann 1 sibling, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-01 22:10 UTC (permalink / raw) Maciej Matysiak <phoner@blah.pl> writes: > On the 19th of October 2001 at 11:03, Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) wrote: > >>> I don't use 'to-list' nor 'to-address' parameters at all (my mail is >>> split into groups named like group-year-month, it's a pain to add >>> such parameters to 30+ groups every month). >> Only because you don't know about the variable gnus-parameters :-) > > right :) ok, my homework is done. now i have something like: > > (setq gnus-parameters '( > ("ding-l-.*" > (to-address . "ding@gnus.org") > (to-list . "ding@gnus.org")))) I think using to-address for ding@gnus.org is not totally correct -- ding@gnus.org accepts mail from non list members. > it works nice, but why the list address is not visible in 'gnus > customize' buffer (in fields 'to address' and 'to list')? That is a bummer -- I don't think customize has a way to express "this value isn't set here, but it is effectively set to 'XYZ' by some other mechanism." > (also, this buffer is not killed after submiting the changes with > 'done' button). Yeah, I always wondered why customize did that (never enough to investigate though). -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-11-01 22:10 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-02 1:03 ` Samuel Padgett 2001-11-07 13:39 ` Maciej Matysiak 2001-11-07 13:30 ` Maciej Matysiak 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Samuel Padgett @ 2001-11-02 1:03 UTC (permalink / raw) "Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1007244626.4ef141@lickey.com> writes: > Maciej Matysiak <phoner@blah.pl> writes: > >> (also, this buffer is not killed after submiting the changes with >> 'done' button). > > Yeah, I always wondered why customize did that (never enough to > investigate though). Have a look at custom-buffer-done-function. Sam ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-11-02 1:03 ` Samuel Padgett @ 2001-11-07 13:39 ` Maciej Matysiak 0 siblings, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Maciej Matysiak @ 2001-11-07 13:39 UTC (permalink / raw) On the 2nd of November 2001 at 02:03, Samuel Padgett <spadgett1@nc.rr.com> wrote: >>> (also, this buffer is not killed after submiting the changes with >>> 'done' button). >> Yeah, I always wondered why customize did that (never enough to >> investigate though). > Have a look at custom-buffer-done-function. ,--- | `custom-buffer-done-function' is a variable declared in Lisp. | -- loaded from "cus-edit" | | Value: kill-buffer | | Documentation: | *Function to be used to remove the buffer when the user is done with it. | Choices include `kill-buffer' (the default) and `bury-buffer'. | The function will be called with one argument, the buffer to remove. `---- and the customize buffer is still available after i commit changes. a bug? m.m. -- use gnus not guns! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-11-01 22:10 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-02 1:03 ` Samuel Padgett @ 2001-11-07 13:30 ` Maciej Matysiak 2001-11-07 14:26 ` Per Abrahamsen 2001-11-07 14:44 ` Josh Huber 1 sibling, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Maciej Matysiak @ 2001-11-07 13:30 UTC (permalink / raw) On the 1st of November 2001 at 23:10, "Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1007244626.4ef141@lickey.com> wrote: > I think using to-address for ding@gnus.org is not totally correct -- > ding@gnus.org accepts mail from non list members. thank you for pointing this out. >> (also, this buffer is not killed after submiting the changes with >> 'done' button). > Yeah, I always wondered why customize did that (never enough to > investigate though). is this gnus or [x]emacs issue? btw., is the mft header generated before sending a message? i've just upgraded gnus from pre-mft-stuff version. i have set to t the variable message-generate-headers-first, and mft is not among the headers. m.m. -- use gnus not guns! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-11-07 13:30 ` Maciej Matysiak @ 2001-11-07 14:26 ` Per Abrahamsen 2001-11-07 14:31 ` Didier Verna 2001-11-07 14:44 ` Josh Huber 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 2001-11-07 14:26 UTC (permalink / raw) Maciej Matysiak <phoner@blah.pl> writes: > is this gnus or [x]emacs issue? An [X]Emacs issue. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-11-07 14:26 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 2001-11-07 14:31 ` Didier Verna 2001-11-07 14:40 ` Per Abrahamsen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Didier Verna @ 2001-11-07 14:31 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Per Abrahamsen wrote: > An [X]Emacs issue. An \(X|GNU \)Emacs issue :-) -- Didier Verna, didier@lrde.epita.fr, http://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier EPITA / LRDE, 14-16 rue Voltaire Tel.+33 (1) 53 14 59 47 94276 Le Kremlin-Bicêtre, France Fax.+33 (1) 53 14 59 22 didier@xemacs.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-11-07 14:31 ` Didier Verna @ 2001-11-07 14:40 ` Per Abrahamsen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 2001-11-07 14:40 UTC (permalink / raw) Didier Verna <didier@lrde.epita.fr> writes: > Per Abrahamsen wrote: > >> An [X]Emacs issue. > > An \(X|GNU \)Emacs issue :-) A GNU [X]Emacs issue. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-11-07 13:30 ` Maciej Matysiak 2001-11-07 14:26 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 2001-11-07 14:44 ` Josh Huber 2001-11-07 15:36 ` Kai Großjohann 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Josh Huber @ 2001-11-07 14:44 UTC (permalink / raw) Maciej Matysiak <phoner@blah.pl> writes: > btw., is the mft header generated before sending a message? i've > just upgraded gnus from pre-mft-stuff version. i have set to t the > variable message-generate-headers-first, and mft is not among the > headers. The MFT header can't be generated before sending the message. (well, I guess it could, but the "spec" says that it must be generated after you know the final list of recipients) Currently (I think) you're going to need something like this in your ~/.gnus.el: (setq gnus-parameters '(("^mail\\.lists\\." (subscribed . t)))) (setq message-subscribed-address-functions '(gnus-find-subscribed-addresses)) First, a regexp describing which groups you are subscribed to. What this does is if the regexp matches, gnus pulls a to-list/to-address value from the group parameters. gnus-find-subscribed-addresses does this for all groups that match the regexp, and returns a regexp that matches all of the to-list/to-address values that you are subscribed to. so, it still requires some configuration. -- Josh Huber ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-11-07 14:44 ` Josh Huber @ 2001-11-07 15:36 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-11-07 16:08 ` Matt Armstrong 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2001-11-07 15:36 UTC (permalink / raw) Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> writes: > The MFT header can't be generated before sending the message. It doesn't make sense to generate headers after sending the message, for then it's gone already. So MFT should be generated after the user hits C-c C-c but before the message is actually sent. kai -- I like BOTH kinds of music. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-11-07 15:36 ` Kai Großjohann @ 2001-11-07 16:08 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-07 17:03 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-11-07 19:59 ` Josh Huber 0 siblings, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-07 16:08 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes: > Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> writes: > >> The MFT header can't be generated before sending the message. > > It doesn't make sense to generate headers after sending the message, > for then it's gone already. > > So MFT should be generated after the user hits C-c C-c but before the > message is actually sent. :-) That's funny. Of course, I'm sure that's what Josh meant. -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-11-07 16:08 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-07 17:03 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-11-07 19:59 ` Josh Huber 1 sibling, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2001-11-07 17:03 UTC (permalink / raw) "Matt Armstrong" <matt@lickey.com> writes: > :-) That's funny. Of course, I'm sure that's what Josh meant. Ah, I'm happy that I don't _always_ need to add a smiley when I want to make a joke! ;-) kai -- I like BOTH kinds of music. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-11-07 16:08 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-07 17:03 ` Kai Großjohann @ 2001-11-07 19:59 ` Josh Huber 1 sibling, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Josh Huber @ 2001-11-07 19:59 UTC (permalink / raw) "Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1007741306.241146@lickey.com> writes: > :-) That's funny. Of course, I'm sure that's what Josh meant. er...yes :) heh. -- Josh Huber ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-11-01 21:54 ` Maciej Matysiak 2001-11-01 22:10 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-02 8:31 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-11-02 16:09 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-07 13:43 ` Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers Maciej Matysiak 1 sibling, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2001-11-02 8:31 UTC (permalink / raw) Maciej Matysiak <phoner@blah.pl> writes: > right :) ok, my homework is done. now i have something like: > > (setq gnus-parameters '( > ("ding-l-.*" > (to-address . "ding@gnus.org") > (to-list . "ding@gnus.org")))) > > it works nice, but why the list address is not visible in 'gnus customize' > buffer (in fields 'to address' and 'to list')? (also, this buffer is not > killed after submiting the changes with 'done' button). Well, suppose you have the above in gnus-parameters and then hit `G c' on a group ding-l-foo, and change the parameter there. What should happen to the value of gnus-parameters? And what should happen to the setq statement which asks the Oracle of Delphi to compute the right gnus-parameters value for the current phase of the moon? kai -- Lisp is kinda like tpircstsoP ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-11-02 8:31 ` Kai Großjohann @ 2001-11-02 16:09 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-02 16:52 ` OT: make bbdb shut up about different email addresses? Josh Huber 2001-11-07 13:43 ` Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers Maciej Matysiak 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-02 16:09 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding list Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes: > Maciej Matysiak <phoner@blah.pl> writes: > >> right :) ok, my homework is done. now i have something like: >> >> (setq gnus-parameters '( >> ("ding-l-.*" >> (to-address . "ding@gnus.org") >> (to-list . "ding@gnus.org")))) >> >> it works nice, but why the list address is not visible in 'gnus customize' >> buffer (in fields 'to address' and 'to list')? (also, this buffer is not >> killed after submiting the changes with 'done' button). > > Well, suppose you have the above in gnus-parameters and then hit `G > c' on a group ding-l-foo, and change the parameter there. What > should happen to the value of gnus-parameters? It should be left unchanged. > And what should happen to the setq statement which asks the Oracle > of Delphi to compute the right gnus-parameters value for the current > phase of the moon? I'd say the real group parameters would have precedence over gnus-parameters. -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* OT: make bbdb shut up about different email addresses? 2001-11-02 16:09 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-02 16:52 ` Josh Huber 2001-11-02 17:37 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-02 22:27 ` Jack Twilley 0 siblings, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Josh Huber @ 2001-11-02 16:52 UTC (permalink / raw) I wonder, since Matt's email addresses are dated, is there a way to get BBDB to not ask me: "Would you like to add ...@... to so-and-so's BBDB record?" every time I view a message from Matt? thanks, -- Josh Huber ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: make bbdb shut up about different email addresses? 2001-11-02 16:52 ` OT: make bbdb shut up about different email addresses? Josh Huber @ 2001-11-02 17:37 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-02 17:48 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-02 18:35 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-02 22:27 ` Jack Twilley 1 sibling, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-02 17:37 UTC (permalink / raw) Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> writes: > I wonder, since Matt's email addresses are dated, is there a way to > get BBDB to not ask me: > > "Would you like to add ...@... to so-and-so's BBDB record?" > > every time I view a message from Matt? I set bbdb-always-add-addresses to 'never. But you can also set it to a function that (I assume) gets the address and returns 't, nil or 'never. It could use some regexp magic to avoid asking about the dated address. -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: make bbdb shut up about different email addresses? 2001-11-02 17:37 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-02 17:48 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-02 19:44 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-02 18:35 ` Matt Armstrong 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-02 17:48 UTC (permalink / raw) "Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1007314672.bbf0af@lickey.com> writes: > But you can also set it to a function that (I assume) gets the > address and returns 't, nil or 'never. It could use some regexp > magic to avoid asking about the dated address. Yes, BBDB provides a hook for filtering email addresses before adding them to the database. See <http://forums.my.gnus.org/viewtopic.php?topic=46&forum=7&0> for the details. I should probably add this to the TMDA FAQ as well. -- (TMDA - http://tmda.sourceforge.net) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: make bbdb shut up about different email addresses? 2001-11-02 17:48 ` Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-02 19:44 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-02 19:58 ` Paul Jarc 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-02 19:44 UTC (permalink / raw) "Jason R. Mastaler" <jason-dated-1005414502.d48a01@mastaler.com> writes: > "Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1007314672.bbf0af@lickey.com> writes: > >> But you can also set it to a function that (I assume) gets the >> address and returns 't, nil or 'never. It could use some regexp >> magic to avoid asking about the dated address. > > Yes, BBDB provides a hook for filtering email addresses before adding > them to the database. > > See <http://forums.my.gnus.org/viewtopic.php?topic=46&forum=7&0> for > the details. > > I should probably add this to the TMDA FAQ as well. Yes, much better than using bbdb-always-add-addresses as I suggested earlier. My version below deals only with "dated" addresses; deals with those that use any recipient delimiter (not just -); and is a tighter regexp to minimize risk of false simplifications. P.S., please let me know if there is any standard emacs function equivalent to (defun extract-match (str index) (substring str (match-beginning index) (match-end index))) (defun my-bbdb-canonicalize-net-hook (addr) (cond ;; take care of TMDA dated addresses ((string-match "^\\(.+?\\)\\(.\\)dated\\2[0-9]+\\.[0-9a-fA-F]+\\(@.*\\)" addr) (concat (substring addr (match-beginning 1) (match-end 1)) (substring addr (match-beginning 3) (match-end 3)))) ;; by default, leave it alone (t addr))) (setq bbdb-canonicalize-net-hook 'my-bbdb-canonicalize-net-hook) -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: make bbdb shut up about different email addresses? 2001-11-02 19:44 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-02 19:58 ` Paul Jarc 0 siblings, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2001-11-02 19:58 UTC (permalink / raw) "Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1007322243.f870a5@lickey.com> wrote: > P.S., please let me know if there is any standard emacs function > equivalent to > > (defun extract-match (str index) > (substring str (match-beginning index) (match-end index))) match-string paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: make bbdb shut up about different email addresses? 2001-11-02 17:37 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-02 17:48 ` Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-02 18:35 ` Matt Armstrong 1 sibling, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-02 18:35 UTC (permalink / raw) "Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1007314672.bbf0af@lickey.com> writes: > Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> writes: > >> I wonder, since Matt's email addresses are dated, is there a way to >> get BBDB to not ask me: >> >> "Would you like to add ...@... to so-and-so's BBDB record?" >> >> every time I view a message from Matt? > > I set bbdb-always-add-addresses to 'never. > > But you can also set it to a function that (I assume) gets the address > and returns 't, nil or 'never. It could use some regexp magic to > avoid asking about the dated address. This works... (defun my-bbdb-always-add-addresses-func () (cond ((string-match ".\\(.\\)dated\\1[0-9]\\{9,10\\}\\.[0-9a-fA-F]\\{2,16\\}@" net) 'never) (t nil))) (setq bbdb-always-add-addresses 'my-bbdb-always-add-addresses-func) -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: make bbdb shut up about different email addresses? 2001-11-02 16:52 ` OT: make bbdb shut up about different email addresses? Josh Huber 2001-11-02 17:37 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-02 22:27 ` Jack Twilley 2001-11-02 23:54 ` Matt Armstrong 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Jack Twilley @ 2001-11-02 22:27 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> "Josh" == Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> writes: Josh> I wonder, since Matt's email addresses are dated, is there a way Josh> to get BBDB to not ask me: Josh> "Would you like to add ...@... to so-and-so's BBDB record?" Josh> every time I view a message from Matt? Matt just joined an elite list of folks in my bbdb-canonicalize-net-hook. Here's what the hook would look like if he were the only one in it: (setq bbdb-canonicalize-net-hook '(lambda (addr) (cond ((string-match "matt+[^@]*@lickey.com" addr) "zngg@yvpxrl.pbz") (t addr)))) I've ROTted Matt's address out of courtesy. Josh> thanks, Josh> -- Josh Huber Jack. (took me forever to figure this out.) -- Jack Twilley jmt at twilley dot org http colon slash slash www dot twilley dot org slash tilde jmt slash ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: OT: make bbdb shut up about different email addresses? 2001-11-02 22:27 ` Jack Twilley @ 2001-11-02 23:54 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-03 5:16 ` thoughts on spam Bill White 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-02 23:54 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Jack Twilley <jmt+usenet@twilley.org> writes: >>>>>> "Josh" == Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> writes: > > Josh> I wonder, since Matt's email addresses are dated, is there a way > Josh> to get BBDB to not ask me: > > Josh> "Would you like to add ...@... to so-and-so's BBDB record?" > > Josh> every time I view a message from Matt? > > Matt just joined an elite list of folks in my > bbdb-canonicalize-net-hook. I'm glad to cause trouble. ;-) > I've ROTted Matt's address out of courtesy. <plug> Thanks to TMDA (http://software.libertine.org/tmda), I don't care if my raw address (matt@lickey.com) gets out there. </plug> The point of the +dated.. stuff is to make it easy for folks to reply to my posts without going through a confirmation step proving that they're a human. The +dated.. addresses expire after a while. Actually, some of the benefit is just having the + in the email address. Harvesters are often tripped up by it. I imagine your mailer may bounce mail to "usenet at twilley.org" quite a bit. > Jack. > (took me forever to figure this out.) I think elisp is hard. After 5 years of insignificant tinkering, I'm approaching a novice skill level. -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* thoughts on spam 2001-11-02 23:54 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-03 5:16 ` Bill White 2001-11-03 6:33 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-04 4:07 ` Harry Putnam 0 siblings, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Bill White @ 2001-11-03 5:16 UTC (permalink / raw) On Fri Nov 02 2001 at 17:54, "Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1007337284.9e618d@lickey.com> said: >> I've ROTted Matt's address out of courtesy. > > <plug> > Thanks to TMDA (http://software.libertine.org/tmda), I don't care if > my raw address (matt@lickey.com) gets out there. > </plug> Nowadays spam is pretty easy to filter - nearly everything that lands in my mail.misc is spam. Here's my low-tech method of deleting it. I filter my mail through a huge nnmail-split-methods to grab and store all but messages addressed only to me. When I open my mail.misc Summary buffer, this (setq gnus-summary-line-format "%U%R|%(%uy%)|%4L|%ub|%-30,30f| %B%s\n") ^^^ marks (with a "+") all the folks who are recorded in my bbdb. Then I get ready to lean on the # key and quickly scan the from addresses and subjects that aren't marked with a "+", process-marking them if they're spam, which is now easier to recognize. Hm - I need a way to sort the Summary buffer based on whether a "+" appears at a specific column in each line so "+" messages could float to the top. Some weekends I get over a hundred spams, and it's pretty easy to delete them quickly. The drawback is that marking bbdb-known posters is pretty slow. bw -- Bill White "No, ma'am, we're musicians." ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-03 5:16 ` thoughts on spam Bill White @ 2001-11-03 6:33 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-03 7:29 ` SPAM? What SPAM? (was: thoughts on spam) Robin S. Socha 2001-11-03 14:48 ` thoughts on spam Bill White 2001-11-04 4:07 ` Harry Putnam 1 sibling, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-03 6:33 UTC (permalink / raw) "Bill White" <billw@wolfram.com> writes: > Some weekends I get over a hundred spams, and it's pretty easy to > delete them quickly. The drawback is that marking bbdb-known > posters is pretty slow. The real drawback IMHO is that the spam is still wasting your time, so it is still a problem. As you mentioned, spam is generally easy to recognize, but hand deletion is subject to human error, and again is time-consuming. I hate to brag, but I used to get 800-1000 pieces of spam every month. Now I see 1-2 every six weeks or so. And my system requires practically no maintenance - it runs itself. I can't tell you how much time this has saved me. But more importantly, it has restored my love of e-mail. I once again look forward to opening my mailbox each morning. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* SPAM? What SPAM? (was: thoughts on spam) 2001-11-03 6:33 ` Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-03 7:29 ` Robin S. Socha 2001-11-03 18:13 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-03 14:48 ` thoughts on spam Bill White 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Robin S. Socha @ 2001-11-03 7:29 UTC (permalink / raw) * Jason R Mastaler <jason-dated-1005460420.45cb81@mastaler.com> writes: > "Bill White" <billw@wolfram.com> writes: >> Some weekends I get over a hundred spams, and it's pretty easy to >> delete them quickly. The drawback is that marking bbdb-known posters >> is pretty slow. [...] > I hate to brag, but I used to get 800-1000 pieces of spam every month. > Now I see 1-2 every six weeks or so. Same here. > And my system requires practically no maintenance - it runs itself. I > can't tell you how much time this has saved me. Bragging's no good without mentioning the product itself, D00d3... http://tmda.sourceforge.net/ rocks more than words can describe. And it comes free with your free @my.gnus.org accounts :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: SPAM? What SPAM? (was: thoughts on spam) 2001-11-03 7:29 ` SPAM? What SPAM? (was: thoughts on spam) Robin S. Socha @ 2001-11-03 18:13 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-03 18:39 ` Jason R. Mastaler 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Harry Putnam @ 2001-11-03 18:13 UTC (permalink / raw) "Robin S. Socha" <robin-dated-1005031068.78ccba@socha.net> writes: > Bragging's no good without mentioning the product itself, D00d3... > http://tmda.sourceforge.net/ rocks more than words can describe. And it > comes free with your free @my.gnus.org accounts :-) Doesn't support sendmail.... egad. Only supports kook fringe mta's. (Any one else ever wondered what Robin would do if kicked in shin... I guess we'll find out.... he he) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: SPAM? What SPAM? (was: thoughts on spam) 2001-11-03 18:13 ` Harry Putnam @ 2001-11-03 18:39 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-03 19:04 ` Karl Kleinpaste 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-03 18:39 UTC (permalink / raw) Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes: > Doesn't support sendmail.... egad. Only supports kook fringe mta's. TMDA currently supports the most widely used opensource/unix MTAs other than Sendmail (qmail, Postfix, and Exim). There is a chance that Sendmail will be supported in the future, but it will really be some sort of hack. Sendmail makes things very difficult for me. TMDA (which is invoked from .forward/.qmail) needs full access to the message envelope to operate (envelope recipient address, envelope sender address, etc.). Believe it or not, Sendmail has thrown away the entire envelope by the time it reaches .forward. The requirements for e-mail applications today are different than they were a decade ago, but Sendmail has made little effort to keep up. In my book, Sendmail wins the "pioneer" award for being the first to market, but that is no reason to continue using it today when there are several *superior* alternatives available. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: SPAM? What SPAM? (was: thoughts on spam) 2001-11-03 18:39 ` Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-03 19:04 ` Karl Kleinpaste 2001-11-03 19:12 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-03 19:21 ` Harry Putnam 0 siblings, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Karl Kleinpaste @ 2001-11-03 19:04 UTC (permalink / raw) "Jason R. Mastaler" <jason-dated-1005503980.ed5948@mastaler.com> writes: > Believe it or not, Sendmail has thrown away > the entire envelope by the time it reaches .forward. No, the sender envelope address is present, as can be seen by sending oneself a test message while "|cat > /tmp/junk" is in one's .forward. The first line of the message in /tmp/junk is the "UNIX From_ line", containing the sender envelope (plus timestamp). I don't find the recipient envelope address very useful, because it is seldom more informative than user@host.name. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: SPAM? What SPAM? (was: thoughts on spam) 2001-11-03 19:04 ` Karl Kleinpaste @ 2001-11-03 19:12 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-03 19:21 ` Harry Putnam 1 sibling, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-03 19:12 UTC (permalink / raw) Karl Kleinpaste <karl@charcoal.com> writes: > No, the sender envelope address is present, as can be seen by > sending oneself a test message while "|cat > /tmp/junk" is in one's > .forward. The first line of the message in /tmp/junk is the "UNIX > From_ line", containing the sender envelope (plus timestamp). Right, that was a typo on my part. What I meant was that I need the envelope recipient address, and Sendmail does not provide that. > I don't find the recipient envelope address very useful, because it > is seldom more informative than user@host.name. But as you can imagine, it is necessary for TMDA which needs to be able to process recipients like user-dated-1005505559.fc6798@host.name. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: SPAM? What SPAM? (was: thoughts on spam) 2001-11-03 19:04 ` Karl Kleinpaste 2001-11-03 19:12 ` Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-03 19:21 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-03 22:52 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Harry Putnam @ 2001-11-03 19:21 UTC (permalink / raw) Karl Kleinpaste <karl@charcoal.com> writes: > "Jason R. Mastaler" <jason-dated-1005503980.ed5948@mastaler.com> writes: >> Believe it or not, Sendmail has thrown away >> the entire envelope by the time it reaches .forward. > > No, the sender envelope address is present, as can be seen by sending > oneself a test message while "|cat > /tmp/junk" is in one's .forward. > The first line of the message in /tmp/junk is the "UNIX From_ line", > containing the sender envelope (plus timestamp). Karl, What might this mean? Maybe there is something else I'm supposed to know to do... cat ~/.forward |cat > /tmp/junk $ mail -s TEST reader < .bashrc [209 reader]~ $ /home/reader/.forward: line 1: Unbalanced '>' <and there it hangs> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: SPAM? What SPAM? (was: thoughts on spam) 2001-11-03 19:21 ` Harry Putnam @ 2001-11-03 22:52 ` Karl Kleinpaste 0 siblings, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Karl Kleinpaste @ 2001-11-03 22:52 UTC (permalink / raw) Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes: > Karl, What might this mean? Maybe there is something else I'm > supposed to know to do... > cat ~/.forward > |cat > /tmp/junk > $ mail -s TEST reader < .bashrc > [209 reader]~ > $ /home/reader/.forward: line 1: Unbalanced '>' > <and there it hangs> Not hanging, it just didn't deliver successfully. Piped (programmatic) destinations need to have the entire thing quoted in .forward. My personal .forward contains: [1366] [01:59pm] cinnamon:~> cat .forward "|/home/karl/bin/zrcvalert karl", karl@gw.vanillaknot.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-03 6:33 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-03 7:29 ` SPAM? What SPAM? (was: thoughts on spam) Robin S. Socha @ 2001-11-03 14:48 ` Bill White 2001-11-03 15:12 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-03 18:15 ` Harry Putnam 1 sibling, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Bill White @ 2001-11-03 14:48 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sat Nov 03 2001 at 00:33, "Jason R. Mastaler" <jason-dated-1005460420.45cb81@mastaler.com> said: > I hate to brag, but I used to get 800-1000 pieces of spam every > month. Now I see 1-2 every six weeks or so. And my system requires > practically no maintenance - it runs itself. I can't tell you how > much time this has saved me. But more importantly, it has restored > my love of e-mail. I once again look forward to opening my mailbox > each morning. On Sat Nov 03 2001 at 01:29, "Robin S. Socha" <robin-dated-1005031068.78ccba@socha.net> said: > Same here. > >> And my system requires practically no maintenance - it runs itself. >> I can't tell you how much time this has saved me. [...] > http://tmda.sourceforge.net/ rocks more than words can describe. And it Nice testimonials - I'm downloading now... bw -- Bill White Office: 5E-Z15 Documentation Programmer Phone: 217-398-0700 x 234 Wolfram Research Fax: 217-398-0747 http://members.wri.com/billw [currently working from home most days] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-03 14:48 ` thoughts on spam Bill White @ 2001-11-03 15:12 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-03 18:24 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-03 18:26 ` Robin S. Socha 2001-11-03 18:15 ` Harry Putnam 1 sibling, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-03 15:12 UTC (permalink / raw) * "Bill White" <billw@wolfram.com> on Sat, 03 Nov 2001 | Nice testimonials - I'm downloading now... I've started using spambouncer recently. <URL:http://www.spambouncer.org/> -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-03 15:12 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-03 18:24 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-04 6:01 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-03 18:26 ` Robin S. Socha 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-03 18:24 UTC (permalink / raw) Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > I've started using spambouncer recently. > <URL:http://www.spambouncer.org/> Programs like spambouncer are exactly why I wrote TMDA. The reason is explained under ``Traditional Blacklist-centric Strategy'' at http://tmda.sf.net/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-03 18:24 ` Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-04 6:01 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-04 7:00 ` Jason R. Mastaler 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-04 6:01 UTC (permalink / raw) * "Jason R. Mastaler" <jason-dated-1005503050.85ff2f@mastaler.com> on Sat, 03 Nov 2001 | Programs like spambouncer are exactly why I wrote TMDA. The reason is | explained under ``Traditional Blacklist-centric Strategy'' at | http://tmda.sf.net/ Whitelists have their own risks that I would rather not have to deal with at the delivery level. For example, I post something to a mailing list, someone wants clarification about that thing and would prefer not to discuss it on the list. His mail bounces because he is not in my whitelist. Sure, he gets a note saying, "here is how to get on Rat's whitelist." That is a pain in the ass, plain and simple. Whitelists do not scale well at all, which is why SpamCop is moving away from a whitelist/blacklist scheme to an heuristic scheme that they have found blocks more spam with fewer false positives than the combined white and black lists. Just FYI. -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-04 6:01 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-04 7:00 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-04 8:40 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-05 22:01 ` Chris Shenton 0 siblings, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-04 7:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > Whitelists have their own risks that I would rather not have to deal > with at the delivery level. For example, I post something to a > mailing list, someone wants clarification about that thing and would > prefer not to discuss it on the list. His mail bounces because he > is not in my whitelist. Sure, he gets a note saying, "here is how > to get on Rat's whitelist." That is a pain in the ass, plain and > simple. This is exactly what TMDA's 'dated' addresses are for. You control when they expire, and within that interval, anyone can contact you at that address. I've found that with my whitelist and using 'dated' addresses on mailing lists and USENET, very few people actually end up having to confirm messages. Confirmation involves the 2-click/key sequence of replying to a message, and it's only a one time ordeal for them anyway. Hardly a pain in the ass IMO. > Whitelists do not scale well at all, which is why SpamCop is moving > away from a whitelist/blacklist scheme to an heuristic scheme that > they have found blocks more spam with fewer false positives than the > combined white and black lists. First, SpamCop is different in that they use global lists which end up much larger than TMDA's per-user lists. With wildcard expressions and DBM/CDB support, scalability is not much of a problem anyway, even with fairly large lists. Second, as explained on the homepage, TMDA is "whitelist-centric" which means use of a blacklist is downplayed in favour of the whitelist. Whitelists are generally much smaller than blacklists. I don't know all the details about the SpamCop decision, but I really don't see how any heuristic could be more effective than what I'm doing now. (I've already mentioned how many SPAMs I now get). Using heuristics puts you right back into that "race condition" with the spammers. Spam software implementors are just as clever and motivated as we are. As far as false positives, I've not had yet (in over 6 months) had one, and I'm sure any TMDA will tell you the same. Unnecessary complexity is what gets you into trouble in that area. TMDA's methodology is very simple, which I think is its greatest strength. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-04 7:00 ` Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-04 8:40 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-05 20:04 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-05 22:01 ` Chris Shenton 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-04 8:40 UTC (permalink / raw) * "Jason R. Mastaler" <jason-dated-1005548417.48bbb7@mastaler.com> on Sun, 04 Nov 2001 | As far as false positives, I've not had yet (in over 6 months) had one, | and I'm sure any TMDA will tell you the same. Unnecessary complexity is | what gets you into trouble in that area. TMDA's methodology is very | simple, which I think is its greatest strength. TDMA and puts the onus on the sender. I think this is bad because for every "power user" like me there are hundreds if not thousands who are utterly confused when they get a warning, "unable to deliver, will try again in N hours" and want to know if their mail was delivered. These people Just Don't Get It, and they -never- will. These are the people who will generate false positives against TDMA. They will be confused by TDMA's "do this to get on my whitelist" response because it is not the nothingness they expect, and most of them will simply ignore it and never send you anything again. And then there are those like me. If I am in a pissy mood and I get something like that from TDMA, I could very well say "fuck that," delete it, and killfile you so that I never have to deal with a fundamentally brain-damaged mail system. The RISK here is that you will never know that this has happened. Your idea of "no way my whitelist will ever generate a false positive" seems to me to be woefully vulnerable to false positives without any feedback. That seems to me to be a bad system, and I am one of the most rabidly anti-spam people I know. If the choice is between a little bit of spam getting past spambouncer and losing legitimate mail, I will take the spam, let Gnus drop it into my spambucket, and run it through SpamCop manually. SpamCop is abandoning their whitelist/blacklist system because the whitelist system does not work well for everyone, and the blacklist system has proven not to scale up to the load being placed on it. Their new heuristic system works because they have -the- largest database of spam and spammers in the world from which to derive them, and that database is constantly being updated. -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-04 8:40 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-05 20:04 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-05 20:38 ` Stainless Steel Rat 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-05 20:04 UTC (permalink / raw) Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > TDMA and puts the onus on the sender. I think this is bad because > for every "power user" like me there are hundreds if not thousands > who are utterly confused when they get a warning, "unable to > deliver, will try again in N hours" and want to know if their mail > was delivered. These people Just Don't Get It, and they -never- > will. These are the people who will generate false positives > against TDMA. I think you are underestimating the intelligence of the average e-mail user. Confirming a message through TMDA requires less effort than subscribing to a mailing list, and some of the least technical people imaginable (my landlord, my aunt, etc.) were not confused by the process. Also, e-mail awareness/competence will continue to increase as time goes on making this less and less of an issue. > They will be confused by TDMA's "do this to get on my whitelist" > response because it is not the nothingness they expect, and most of > them will simply ignore it and never send you anything again. In practice, this isn't the case. TMDA allows you to save a copy of the confirmed message before storing it for confirmation, so you can check for these cases if you want, but I've found it isn't necessary. > And then there are those like me. If I am in a pissy mood and I get > something like that from TDMA, I could very well say "fuck that," delete > it, and killfile you so that I never have to deal with a fundamentally > brain-damaged mail system. So be it. If you are too lazy to reply to a one-time confirmation message, it tells me your message probably isn't worth reading. And the confirmation is for a good cause, it doesn't indicate a "brain-damaged mail system". > The RISK here is that you will never know that this has happened. Again, this isn't true. You can save the message before confirming as I mentioned, scan the pending queue periodically, etc. > Their new heuristic system works because they have -the- largest > database of spam and spammers in the world from which to derive > them, and that database is constantly being updated. Updated yes, but after the fact. This strategy is old-hat and simply doesn't work well enough for my tastes. Use what makes you most comfortable. Enough said. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-05 20:04 ` Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-05 20:38 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-05 23:06 ` Jason R. Mastaler 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-05 20:38 UTC (permalink / raw) * "Jason R. Mastaler" <jason-dated-1005681899.034438@mastaler.com> on Mon, 05 Nov 2001 | I think you are underestimating the intelligence of the average e-mail | user. Confirming a message through TMDA requires less effort than | subscribing to a mailing list, and some of the least technical people | imaginable (my landlord, my aunt, etc.) were not confused by the process. No, I'm not. I honestly wish I were, but I get two or three stupid user questions a week about mail that you would think is totally self-explanatory. I get mail from users, sometimes the -same- users, asking about mail that tells them that they don't have to do anything at all. | Also, e-mail awareness/competence will continue to increase as time | goes on making this less and less of an issue. Call me a pessimist, then. [...] | In practice, this isn't the case. TMDA allows you to save a copy of | the confirmed message before storing it for confirmation, so you can | check for these cases if you want, but I've found it isn't necessary. Ummm... I am confused. What confirmed message? If you the user hasn't confirmed anything then you don't get a confirmed message to sort or store. Maybe I'm missing something here? [...] | So be it. If you are too lazy to reply to a one-time confirmation | message, it tells me your message probably isn't worth reading. Actually, it tells you nothing at all. See, that is my point. You, the TDMA user, never know this has happened. | And the confirmation is for a good cause, it doesn't indicate a | "brain-damaged mail system". In my rather extreme opinion, anything that knowingly interferes with the delivery of legitimate mail without informing the recipient of that interference is brain-damaged. | > The RISK here is that you will never know that this has happened. | Again, this isn't true. You can save the message before confirming as | I mentioned, scan the pending queue periodically, etc. Sounds a bit backwards to me. Knowing that I got bad mail and dealing with it makes more sense to me than scanning a trap full of bad mail for one or two good messages that may or may not be there. [...] | Updated yes, but after the fact. This strategy is old-hat and simply | doesn't work well enough for my tastes. Use what makes you most | comfortable. Enough said. You'd be suprised at how well it can work. The trick is to use a scoring method, grepping for words and phrases common to various types of spam and setting the spam flag if the score exceeds a threshold. This works because most of the spam out there are basically form letters. -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-05 20:38 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-05 23:06 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-06 1:52 ` Stainless Steel Rat 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-05 23:06 UTC (permalink / raw) Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > Ummm... I am confused. What confirmed message? If you the user > hasn't confirmed anything then you don't get a confirmed message to > sort or store. Maybe I'm missing something here? [...] > Actually, it tells you nothing at all. See, that is my point. You, > the TDMA user, never know this has happened. [...] > In my rather extreme opinion, anything that knowingly interferes > with the delivery of legitimate mail without informing the recipient > of that interference is brain-damaged. [...] > Sounds a bit backwards to me. Knowing that I got bad mail and > dealing with it makes more sense to me than scanning a trap full of > bad mail for one or two good messages that may or may not be there. Each of these assumptions is erroneous, but I don't have the energy to argue any more, and I'm sure lots of Gnus users wish I would shut my hole, so if you want to discuss this further, take it to one of the TMDA lists please. > You'd be suprised at how well it can work. The trick is to use a > scoring method, grepping for words and phrases common to various > types of spam and setting the spam flag if the score exceeds a > threshold. This works because most of the spam out there are > basically form letters. Yup. That works until the spammers figure this out and start to use different words and phrases. This is an time-wasting infinite loop. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-05 23:06 ` Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-06 1:52 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-06 2:07 ` Stainless Steel Rat 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-06 1:52 UTC (permalink / raw) * "Jason R. Mastaler" <jason-dated-1005692781.f201f7@mastaler.com> on Mon, 05 Nov 2001 | Yup. That works until the spammers figure this out and start to use | different words and phrases. This is an time-wasting infinite loop. No, it isn't. Watch. Take a well-known spam-friendly but otherwise legitimate mail service like mail.ru. Yes, they really should lock things down, but they do not, and my company has several customers who use mail.ru as their mail service. Sucks, but we're stuck with it. Add spam for "Super Pheromones" which was originated there, or at least appears to be. Here is how it is dealt with heuristically using a scoring system. The spam-friendly ISP gives the message a base score of 1000. The first instance of the word "pheromone" is worth 500 points and each additional occourance is worth 100 points (the message I am using as an example has four occourances). The HTML-only message, no text part, is worth 500 points. There are additional checks that can be applied, but I am keeping this example simple. We decide to set our threshold to 2200. This will cause any message that orginates from mail.ru or another known spam-friendly source (1000), is HMTL only (500), and contains the word "pheromone" three times or more (700) to be marked as spam. No matter how much the spammer changes his form letter, the product he is advertising is going to be mentioned several times, if he doesn't mention his product and what it does then his advertising is going to fail. That is what you scan for. This also works for "You gotta see this", which dubiously advertises unsecured credit cards, sattelite descramblers, long distance telephone theft, water and electric theft, X-Ray envelope spray, internet sleuth, radar jammers, anonymous mail relaying, some kind of test cheat scam, another credit scam, how to pass drug tests, cable TV theft, lie detector fakout, and lockpicking tricks. The actual scores and threshold values are arbitrary, and there are some useful formulae for calculating keyword weights depending on how agressive you wish to be. Now, this message would get a score of absurdly high because of the 14 "you gotta see this" products (for only $19.95!), which is why a better keyword weighting system might be to start small and increase by some scaling factor. So the first instance of "pheromone" would be 50 points, the second 250 points and the third 500 points, for a total of 800 points. I'll let you know what spambouncer says the score of this message is once I get it back from the list :). -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-06 1:52 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-06 2:07 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-06 2:43 ` Paul Jarc 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-06 2:07 UTC (permalink / raw) * Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> on Mon, 05 Nov 2001 | I'll let you know what spambouncer says the score of this message is once I | get it back from the list :). Actually, none, since it came from a known good list. Yes, spambouncer also uses a white list so mailing lists don't get clobbered. -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ head. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-06 2:07 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-06 2:43 ` Paul Jarc 2001-11-06 3:05 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-06 3:26 ` Stainless Steel Rat 0 siblings, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2001-11-06 2:43 UTC (permalink / raw) Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> wrote: > Yes, spambouncer also uses a white list so mailing lists don't get > clobbered. Which is nice, since spam never comes through mailing lists. Can this *please* be taken off this list now? paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-06 2:43 ` Paul Jarc @ 2001-11-06 3:05 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-06 3:26 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1 sibling, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Harry Putnam @ 2001-11-06 3:05 UTC (permalink / raw) prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes: > Can this *please* be taken off this list now? Paul, can't you just avoid the thread? I mean it is about mail/newsreading. It's not as if we've had a surfeit of interesting topics here lately. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-06 2:43 ` Paul Jarc 2001-11-06 3:05 ` Harry Putnam @ 2001-11-06 3:26 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1 sibling, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-06 3:26 UTC (permalink / raw) * prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) on Mon, 05 Nov 2001 | Which is nice, since spam never comes through mailing lists. | Can this *please* be taken off this list now? Since I seem to have misrepresented spambouncer here, no, at least not yet. My mistake is the implication that the whitelist for mailing lists will allow all spam through. It won't. It will be marked "Bulk" in the headers, which may or may not be useful for split methods. How to pull this back on topic for Gnus? spambouncer creates X-SBClass and X-SBRule headers for all messages that it processes. SBClass can be OK, Bulk, Blocked, Admin or Spam. OK means it passed without any spammish content. Bulk comes from mailing lists. Blocked is something that triggerd a pattern match such as disclaimers; the associated X-SBRule header can be checked for details in a fancy split. Admin is stuff that appears to have come from an automated source, mailer-daemon, cron, etc. Spam is any message that is obviously from a known spammer or spam house, sent by a known spam mailer, achieves a sufficiently high pattern match score, etc. Spam includes mail that originates from an easilly configured list of blackholes and DULs. Huzzah, full circle! spambouncer makes filtering with Gnus easy! -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ head. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-04 7:00 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-04 8:40 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-05 22:01 ` Chris Shenton 2001-11-05 22:54 ` Matt Armstrong 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Chris Shenton @ 2001-11-05 22:01 UTC (permalink / raw) This discussion has finally motivated me to try TMDA. Just built and installed it but I'm having trouble figuring the best way to use it with all the mailing lists I'm already on. Naturally, the second I enabled it in .qmail[-default] it started pumping msgs to ~/.tmda/pending. The FAQ indicates that I can add stuff to "whitelist" which TMDA should compare with Envelope-Sender, and the body From: and Reply-To: headers. I don't see anything in my qmail logs which tells me the envelope sender; any suggestions how I can capture this? For mailing lists, the From: is usually not what I want, since that just gets the originating human's address. Most the lists I'm on do not have a Reply-To: either. So all I can match on is what qmail-smtpd records as the connecting host, not a full envelope from. This is way too broad. Sounds like the best thing is to unsubscribe from all my lists then resubscribe with one of the username-extensions like "sender", right? That's gonna take some time, so I'm looking for clues to help me make the transition less painful. Suggestions welcomed. Thanks. PS: To keep it on topic, I'm using the Gnus that came with Emacs21. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-05 22:01 ` Chris Shenton @ 2001-11-05 22:54 ` Matt Armstrong 0 siblings, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-05 22:54 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding, tmda-users Note: I've set the Mail-Followup-To: to tmda-users@libertine.org since this is off topic for ding@gnus.org Chris Shenton <chris@shenton.org> writes: > This discussion has finally motivated me to try TMDA. Just built > and installed it but I'm having trouble figuring the best way to use > it with all the mailing lists I'm already on. > > Naturally, the second I enabled it in .qmail[-default] it started > pumping msgs to ~/.tmda/pending. > > I don't see anything in my qmail logs which tells me the envelope > sender; any suggestions how I can capture this? For mailing lists, > the From: is usually not what I want, since that just gets the > originating human's address. Most the lists I'm on do not have a > Reply-To: either. Stick something like this in your .tmdarc: import time localtime = time.localtime(time.time()) YYYYmm = time.strftime('%Y-%m',localtime) LOGFILE = os.path.expanduser("/home/matt/.tmda/log/tmdalog." + YYYYmm) This'll give stuff like this in your ~/.tmda/log/tmdalog.2001-11 file: Date: Thu Nov 1 08:33:03 2001 From: c379sb1@caramail.com To: matt+bmi@lickey.com Subj: Sales leads for your business. Actn: CONFIRM pending 1004628783.24166.msg (693) Note the Actn: line shows that tmda sent a confirmation mail for this one -- you didn't get it in your inbox. The envelope sender will be in the Sndr: line. In this case, the envelope sender was the same as the From: line, so TMDA omitted it. > Sounds like the best thing is to unsubscribe from all my lists then > resubscribe with one of the username-extensions like "sender", right? I eventually ended up doing that, rather than whitelist them. I use the recently added "keyword" style addresses. For example, I subscribed to ding@gnus.org as matt+ding.e75467@lickey.com. TMDA will accept this address regardless of who sends it, which can sometimes be helpful with dealing with lists. E.g. if you get mail from majordomo@wherever.com, you'll get it. If you just whitelist "list-owner@wherever.com" you may miss such mails. Then, if the list requires that you be subscribed to post, you can add something like this to your ~/.tmda/lists/keyword file: ding@gnus.org ding and tmda-inject will munge your From address to be user+ding.e75467@yourdomain.com. If this address ever starts getting spam, stick it in your ~/.tmda/lists/revoked file and start using ding2 as your keyword. ;-) > That's gonna take some time, so I'm looking for clues to help me > make the transition less painful. Suggestions welcomed. You might also set BOUNCE_CONFIRM_CC to be something like chris-bounces@shenton.org -- and have .qmail-bounces deliver to a mail folder that you check periodically, until you've got all your mailing lists accounted for. -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-03 15:12 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-03 18:24 ` Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-03 18:26 ` Robin S. Socha 2001-11-03 18:42 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-03 18:56 ` Fabien Penso 1 sibling, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Robin S. Socha @ 2001-11-03 18:26 UTC (permalink / raw) * Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: >* "Bill White" <billw@wolfram.com> on Sat, 03 Nov 2001 > | Nice testimonials - I'm downloading now... > I've started using spambouncer recently. <URL:http://www.spambouncer.org/> procmail. Blech. Urgh. Begone! Ickickick. *shudder* You aware of the fact, though, that spambouncer has nothing to do with tmda whatsoever and is just another futile attempt at using cleverer heuristics than the spammers? I mean, yeah, I know you do, but, eh, procmail sucks and spammers are eerily cunning. tmda doesn't need heuristics. It just works. And it does not need procmail. Did I mention already that procmail sucks? Listen and repeat, boys and girls: "qmail, qmail, tatataaa, mailfilter, mailfilter, dumdidum..." Damn, that booze *is* heavy... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-03 18:26 ` Robin S. Socha @ 2001-11-03 18:42 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-03 18:56 ` Fabien Penso 1 sibling, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-03 18:42 UTC (permalink / raw) "Robin S. Socha" <robin-dated-1005070923.208cb9@socha.net> writes: > procmail. Blech. Urgh. Begone! Ickickick. *shudder* > > You aware of the fact, though, that spambouncer has nothing to do > with tmda whatsoever and is just another futile attempt at using > cleverer heuristics than the spammers? I mean, yeah, I know you do, > but, eh, procmail sucks and spammers are eerily cunning. tmda doesn't > need heuristics. It just works. And it does not need procmail. Did I > mention already that procmail sucks? Listen and repeat, boys and girls: > "qmail, qmail, tatataaa, mailfilter, mailfilter, dumdidum..." > > Damn, that booze *is* heavy... With friends like Robin, who needs enemies. :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-03 18:26 ` Robin S. Socha 2001-11-03 18:42 ` Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-03 18:56 ` Fabien Penso 2001-11-03 19:24 ` Robin S. Socha 2001-11-03 20:32 ` Russ Allbery 1 sibling, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Fabien Penso @ 2001-11-03 18:56 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 807 bytes --] Robin on Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:26:51 -0500 wrote: > You aware of the fact, though, that spambouncer has nothing to do > with tmda whatsoever and is just another futile attempt at using > cleverer heuristics than the spammers? I mean, yeah, I know you do, > but, eh, procmail sucks and spammers are eerily cunning. tmda doesn't > need heuristics. It just works. And it does not need procmail. Did I > mention already that procmail sucks? Listen and repeat, boys and girls: > "qmail, qmail, tatataaa, mailfilter, mailfilter, dumdidum..." Qmail sux, his license is the kind you can throw away. Use Postfix. Also procmail is a great piece of software. Would you be nice enough to tell why you don't like procmail ? -- Fabien Penso <penso@linuxfr.org> http://perso.LinuxFR.org/penso/ [-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 239 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-03 18:56 ` Fabien Penso @ 2001-11-03 19:24 ` Robin S. Socha 2001-11-04 5:54 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-03 20:32 ` Russ Allbery 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Robin S. Socha @ 2001-11-03 19:24 UTC (permalink / raw) * Fabien Penso <penso@linuxfr.org> writes: > Robin on Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:26:51 -0500 wrote: >> You aware of the fact, though, that spambouncer has nothing to do >> with tmda whatsoever and is just another futile attempt at using >> cleverer heuristics than the spammers? > Qmail sux, his license is the kind you can throw away. Fabien sux, his reading ability is the kind you can throw away. qmail does not have a licence. Duh ;-) > Use Postfix. Get a shovel, you'll need a *deep* hole: http://software.libertine.org/tmda/requirements.html > Also procmail is a great piece of software. Procmail is a great pain in the arse. Its syntax is as sexually exciting as hacking sendmail.cf with vi. > Would you be nice enough to tell why you don't like procmail ? I'm not nice. But I strongly recommend your reading http://www.flounder.net/~mrsam/maildrop/ - procmail is to maildrop what sendmail is to qmail: bloated, arcane, unsafe. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-03 19:24 ` Robin S. Socha @ 2001-11-04 5:54 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-04 7:07 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-04 17:23 ` François Pinard 0 siblings, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-04 5:54 UTC (permalink / raw) * "Robin S. Socha" <robin-dated-1005074278.269a25@socha.net> on Sat, 03 Nov 2001 | I'm not nice. But I strongly recommend your reading | http://www.flounder.net/~mrsam/maildrop/ - procmail is to maildrop what | sendmail is to qmail: bloated, arcane, unsafe. Yeah, but you know, not using qmail has one really, really important benfit to me: I don't use qmail. Whether or not qmail sucks is not the issue. Dan Bernstein is the issue. I simply refuse to voluntarilly use an of his software, and there is absolutely nothing that anyone can say that will get me to change my mind, simple as that. -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-04 5:54 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-04 7:07 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-04 9:04 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-04 17:33 ` François Pinard 2001-11-04 17:23 ` François Pinard 1 sibling, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-04 7:07 UTC (permalink / raw) Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > Dan Bernstein is the issue. I simply refuse to voluntarilly use an > of his software, and there is absolutely nothing that anyone can say > that will get me to change my mind, simple as that. That's interesting, but I'm fairly sure it won't bother him much. I'm the first to admit DJB has a god-complex and the social graces of a water buffalo. I use this software because it's brilliant, not because of his personality or lack thereof. I do what's best for me, and can leave my ego at the door to achieve that. Anyway, Postfix and Exim are reasonable Sendmail-alternatives as well. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-04 7:07 ` Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-04 9:04 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-04 17:57 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-04 17:33 ` François Pinard 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-04 9:04 UTC (permalink / raw) * "Jason R. Mastaler" <jason-dated-1005548826.22b028@mastaler.com> on Sun, 04 Nov 2001 | Anyway, Postfix and Exim are reasonable Sendmail-alternatives as well. They are -not- reasonable for -all- cases. I have seen Postfix's parallelization totally cripple my network at work. As far as we could figure, Postfix did not ratchet down fast enough and the end result was a crashed firewall MTA and an unknown quantity of lost mail. We reset everything and Postfix did it again. I have little doubt that qmail would achieve the same results, only faster. Before you say anything like, "but, you can configure foo to do bar," no, we cannot. No matter what tweaking we might do there is always the slim possibility that Postfix will do that again. The only way we can guarantee that it will not happen is not to use Postfix at all. sendmail works. That made our choice of MTA a no-brainer. -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-04 9:04 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-04 17:57 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-04 20:46 ` Stainless Steel Rat 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-04 17:57 UTC (permalink / raw) Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > * "Jason R. Mastaler" <jason-dated-1005548826.22b028@mastaler.com> on Sun, 04 Nov 2001 > | Anyway, Postfix and Exim are reasonable Sendmail-alternatives as well. > > They are -not- reasonable for -all- cases. I have seen Postfix's > parallelization totally cripple my network at work. As far as we > could figure, Postfix did not ratchet down fast enough and the end > result was a crashed firewall MTA and an unknown quantity of lost > mail. We reset everything and Postfix did it again. I have little > doubt that qmail would achieve the same results, only faster. > > Before you say anything like, "but, you can configure foo to do > bar," no, we cannot. No matter what tweaking we might do there is > always the slim possibility that Postfix will do that again. The > only way we can guarantee that it will not happen is not to use > Postfix at all. sendmail works. That made our choice of MTA a > no-brainer. FUD -- you can configure postfix such that there is zero possibility that it'll flood your network. -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-04 17:57 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-04 20:46 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-05 3:49 ` Paul Jarc 2001-11-05 15:59 ` Matt Armstrong 0 siblings, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-04 20:46 UTC (permalink / raw) * "Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1007488665.146847@lickey.com> on Sun, 04 Nov 2001 | FUD -- you can configure postfix such that there is zero possibility | that it'll flood your network. Your -assertion- does not make it so. The fact that it -has- happened is sufficient reason to be wary of it, because there is a non-zero possibility of it happening again, no matter what you say. -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-04 20:46 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-05 3:49 ` Paul Jarc 2001-11-05 4:34 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-05 15:59 ` Matt Armstrong 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2001-11-05 3:49 UTC (permalink / raw) Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> wrote: > * "Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1007488665.146847@lickey.com> on Sun, 04 Nov 2001 >| Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> wrote: >|> I have seen Postfix's parallelization totally cripple my network >|> at work. As far as we could figure, Postfix did not ratchet down >|> fast enough and the end result was a crashed firewall MTA and an >|> unknown quantity of lost mail. We reset everything and Postfix >|> did it again. I have little doubt that qmail would achieve the >|> same results, only faster. qmail doesn't lose mail. (Nor does it "ratchet down"; you give it a limit, and it stays within that limit.) >| FUD -- you can configure postfix such that there is zero possibility >| that it'll flood your network. > > Your -assertion- does not make it so. Nor does your assertion make it not so. > The fact that it -has- happened is sufficient reason to be wary of it, > because there is a non-zero possibility of it happening again, no matter > what you say. IOW, as long as it's possible to configure it to hose your network, you're not interested in whether it can be configured not to do so? This is very, very OT. Can those interested in it take it off-list, please? paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-05 3:49 ` Paul Jarc @ 2001-11-05 4:34 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-05 5:27 ` Harry Putnam 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-05 4:34 UTC (permalink / raw) * prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) on Sun, 04 Nov 2001 | Nor does your assertion make it not so. My first-hand experience makes it so. | IOW, as long as it's possible to configure it to hose your network, | you're not interested in whether it can be configured not to do so? Exactly. Because some day someone is going to come along and accidentaly use the default settings and more mail will be lost. If it has the -capability- of hosing the network and losing mail we are absolutely not interested. That goes for qmail as well as Postfix. Simple as that. | This is very, very OT. Can those interested in it take it off-list, | please? Pot, kettle, etc. -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-05 4:34 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-05 5:27 ` Harry Putnam 0 siblings, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Harry Putnam @ 2001-11-05 5:27 UTC (permalink / raw) Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > | Nor does your assertion make it not so. > > My first-hand experience makes it so. Jeez Rat, could you try not to be so wishy washy on this.. . So do you dislike qmail and every thing about it or what? I can't tell from your timid fence straddling ... he he. Another thing about qmail at least when I tried it out about 2 years ago, is that its only semi-documented. Ditto for postfix back then. Sendmail may be complicated and I don't pretend to know much about it but there are acres of documentation, and even an illiterate hillbilly like me has been able to configure it to work. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-04 20:46 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-05 3:49 ` Paul Jarc @ 2001-11-05 15:59 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-05 16:57 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-05 15:59 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: (ding) Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > * "Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1007488665.146847@lickey.com> on Sun, 04 Nov 2001 > | FUD -- you can configure postfix such that there is zero possibility > | that it'll flood your network. > > Your -assertion- does not make it so. > > The fact that it -has- happened is sufficient reason to be wary of it, > because there is a non-zero possibility of it happening again, no matter > what you say. Of course, if I dumped every software package that ever screwed me over due to a mis-configuration, I'd have dumped Gnus years ago. ;-) -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-05 15:59 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-05 16:57 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-05 17:45 ` [OT] " Fabien Penso 2001-11-05 19:33 ` Harry Putnam 0 siblings, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-05 16:57 UTC (permalink / raw) * "Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1007567947.77c13d@lickey.com> on Mon, 05 Nov 2001 | Of course, if I dumped every software package that ever screwed me | over due to a mis-configuration, I'd have dumped Gnus years ago. ;-) Let's just say that there is a difference between oneself being reamed by a bug and an entire company of some 350 employees being reamed by a feature. -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* [OT] Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-05 16:57 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-05 17:45 ` Fabien Penso 2001-11-05 19:25 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-05 19:33 ` Harry Putnam 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Fabien Penso @ 2001-11-05 17:45 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: (ding) Stainless on 05 Nov 2001 11:57:16 -0500 wrote: > * "Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1007567947.77c13d@lickey.com> on Mon, 05 Nov 2001 > | Of course, if I dumped every software package that ever screwed me > | over due to a mis-configuration, I'd have dumped Gnus years ago. ;-) > Let's just say that there is a difference between oneself being reamed by a > bug and an entire company of some 350 employees being reamed by a feature. You mean Postfix can't handle 350 accounts ? :) Damned... -- Fabien Penso <penso@linuxfr.org> http://perso.LinuxFR.org/penso/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: [OT] Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-05 17:45 ` [OT] " Fabien Penso @ 2001-11-05 19:25 ` Stainless Steel Rat 0 siblings, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-05 19:25 UTC (permalink / raw) * Fabien Penso <penso@linuxfr.org> on Mon, 05 Nov 2001 | You mean Postfix can't handle 350 accounts ? :) Damned... Umm... read the thread, please. -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-05 16:57 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-05 17:45 ` [OT] " Fabien Penso @ 2001-11-05 19:33 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-05 19:58 ` Stainless Steel Rat ` (3 more replies) 1 sibling, 4 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Harry Putnam @ 2001-11-05 19:33 UTC (permalink / raw) Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > * "Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1007567947.77c13d@lickey.com> on Mon, 05 Nov 2001 > | Of course, if I dumped every software package that ever screwed me > | over due to a mis-configuration, I'd have dumped Gnus years ago. ;-) > > Let's just say that there is a difference between oneself being reamed by a > bug and an entire company of some 350 employees being reamed by a feature. Matt, has gnus actually ever lost mail for you... I've never heard any one say that? I have never lost mail with it since my first usages around quassia-15 or so, and I am probably one of the most sloppy and least informed of its users. The only time I remember actually losing mail while using gnus, it was from unleashing a really stupid rogue `rm -rf' that leveled News Mail and every other non-dot file in ~/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-05 19:33 ` Harry Putnam @ 2001-11-05 19:58 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-05 20:01 ` Karl Kleinpaste ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-05 19:58 UTC (permalink / raw) * Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> on Mon, 05 Nov 2001 | I have never lost mail with it since my first usages around quassia-15 | or so, and I am probably one of the most sloppy and least informed of | its users. I think the only time I have lost anything with GNUS (not Gnus) was while working on GNUS-expire, my attempt at backporting Gnus' expiry code for GNUS 3 and 4. This was ca 1984. -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-05 19:33 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-05 19:58 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-05 20:01 ` Karl Kleinpaste 2001-11-05 20:35 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-06 19:52 ` Steinar Bang 3 siblings, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Karl Kleinpaste @ 2001-11-05 20:01 UTC (permalink / raw) Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes: > Matt, has gnus actually ever lost mail for you... I've never heard any > one say that? There have been bugs at some times in the past. Notably, when Lars was re-working mail source in pGnus around the 0.40 time frame, there was some serious damage done and some folks actually lost mail. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-05 19:33 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-05 19:58 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-05 20:01 ` Karl Kleinpaste @ 2001-11-05 20:35 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-06 6:51 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-06 19:52 ` Steinar Bang 3 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-05 20:35 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: (ding) Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes: > Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > >> * "Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1007567947.77c13d@lickey.com> on Mon, 05 Nov 2001 >> | Of course, if I dumped every software package that ever screwed me >> | over due to a mis-configuration, I'd have dumped Gnus years ago. ;-) >> >> Let's just say that there is a difference between oneself being reamed by a >> bug and an entire company of some 350 employees being reamed by a feature. > > Matt, has gnus actually ever lost mail for you... I've never heard any > one say that? Gnus has certainly lost mail on me. Just recently mail was disappearing on me when my servers/mail-sources were all screwed up through no fault of my own. Mind you I've always been running the development versions since September Gnus, so I do invite this kind of risk (and I backup all mail before it ever gets to Gnus, so no real harm has ever been done). But Gnus is currently broken in its default configuration. If you follow the instructions in the manual, you'll have an "archive" group and your default nnml group living in ~/Mail. Then if you subsequently do a gnus-server-regenerate-server ('g' from the server buffer) of your nnml server, it'll troll through all of ~/Mail, including your archive dirs, and try to make groups out of them. Insanity ensues. Things get broken. If you do a "B c nnfolder:foo" and create a group that way, the 'foo' folder will end up in ~/Mail. ~/Mail/active will have a foo entry put into it, and nnml will start thinking it is an nnml group. Things get broken. Neither of the above actions elicit any warnings when I do them, yet they leave stuff horribly broken. It was when I was trying these things out that I was losing mail (stuff was in the Incoming... files, but in none of the mail groups). Recent threads suggested a way that Gnus can detect when mail backends start sharing the same directories and issue an error. I hope it gets implemented someday -- my elisp isn't good enough to do it myself. ;-) > I have never lost mail with it since my first usages around > quassia-15 or so, and I am probably one of the most sloppy and least > informed of its users. Admittedly, I was *trying* to break things when doing what I describe above. Still, I wasn't doing anything that wasn't easily doable with a few key strokes, or off a menu. I wasn't doing anything that obscure. > The only time I remember actually losing mail while using gnus, it > was from unleashing a really stupid rogue `rm -rf' that leveled News > Mail and every other non-dot file in ~/ Who hasn't? :-) -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-05 20:35 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-06 6:51 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-06 16:55 ` Matt Armstrong 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Harry Putnam @ 2001-11-06 6:51 UTC (permalink / raw) "Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1007584536.5875f3@lickey.com> writes: > Neither of the above actions elicit any warnings when I do them, yet > they leave stuff horribly broken. It was when I was trying these > things out that I was losing mail (stuff was in the Incoming... files, > but in none of the mail groups). "Stuff was in the Incoming..." Says it all. I think you've led us a little astray. So no mail was lost then? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-06 6:51 ` Harry Putnam @ 2001-11-06 16:55 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-06 18:51 ` Harry Putnam 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-06 16:55 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes: > "Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1007584536.5875f3@lickey.com> writes: > >> Neither of the above actions elicit any warnings when I do them, yet >> they leave stuff horribly broken. It was when I was trying these >> things out that I was losing mail (stuff was in the Incoming... files, >> but in none of the mail groups). > > "Stuff was in the Incoming..." Says it all. I think you've led > us a little astray. So no mail was lost then? The mail was preserved in the IncomingXXX files, yes, thanks to my having mail-source-delete-incoming set to nil. Gnus isn't off the hook though -- this is still a catastrophic failure on its part. -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-06 16:55 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-06 18:51 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-06 19:19 ` Lost Mail (was thoughts on spam) Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-06 20:02 ` thoughts on spam Matt Armstrong 0 siblings, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Harry Putnam @ 2001-11-06 18:51 UTC (permalink / raw) "Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1007657726.8b578c@lickey.com> writes: [...] > The mail was preserved in the IncomingXXX files, yes, thanks to my > having mail-source-delete-incoming set to nil. `mail-source-delete-incoming' is set to nil by default in alpha gnus. Has been for years. You are thanking the wrong party. There was a short time a few mnths ago when that got set to t by accident in a tarball (or maybe it was on cvs for a few days). It was duly noted here and quickly changed. Gnus authors, contibutors etc have taken actual `mail loss' very seriously right along. I missed the short lived mess Karl K. mentioned. And I think he said it was fairly short lived too. The reason I kept on with this discussion is because you made a point in counter to `Rat' that if we/you dropped software because it screwed us we would drop gnus. However, if I understood `Rat' correctly he was taling about mail being thoroughly trashed, not surviving in special backupfiles provided by the software in question. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Lost Mail (was thoughts on spam) 2001-11-06 18:51 ` Harry Putnam @ 2001-11-06 19:19 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-06 20:02 ` thoughts on spam Matt Armstrong 1 sibling, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-06 19:19 UTC (permalink / raw) * Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> on Tue, 06 Nov 2001 | However, if I understood `Rat' correctly he was taling about mail | being thoroughly trashed, not surviving in special backupfiles | provided by the software in question. Indeed, lost as in irrecoverably gone forever. Not a fun situation at all. -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ of skin. PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-06 18:51 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-06 19:19 ` Lost Mail (was thoughts on spam) Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-06 20:02 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-06 20:49 ` Harry Putnam 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-06 20:02 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes: > "Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1007657726.8b578c@lickey.com> writes: > > [...] > >> The mail was preserved in the IncomingXXX files, yes, thanks to my >> having mail-source-delete-incoming set to nil. > > `mail-source-delete-incoming' is set to nil by default in alpha > gnus. Has been for years. You are thanking the wrong party. > > There was a short time a few mnths ago when that got set to t by > accident in a tarball (or maybe it was on cvs for a few days). It > was duly noted here and quickly changed. > > Gnus authors, contibutors etc have taken actual `mail loss' very > seriously right along. I missed the short lived mess Karl > K. mentioned. And I think he said it was fairly short lived too. > > The reason I kept on with this discussion is because you made a > point in counter to `Rat' that if we/you dropped software because it > screwed us we would drop gnus. > > However, if I understood `Rat' correctly he was taling about mail > being thoroughly trashed, not surviving in special backupfiles > provided by the software in question. I'm no longer entirely sure what we're talking about here. Right now I'm merely pointing out what I did to get Gnus to lose mail for me just the other week, and that those bugs should probably get fixed before Oort can "ship." -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-06 20:02 ` thoughts on spam Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-06 20:49 ` Harry Putnam 0 siblings, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Harry Putnam @ 2001-11-06 20:49 UTC (permalink / raw) "Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1007668931.c8f542@lickey.com> writes: >> The reason I kept on with this discussion is because you made a >> point in counter to `Rat' that if we/you dropped software because it >> screwed us we would drop gnus. >> >> However, if I understood `Rat' correctly he was taling about mail >> being thoroughly trashed, not surviving in special backupfiles >> provided by the software in question. > > I'm no longer entirely sure what we're talking about here. Let me refresh your memory.. You can review the relevant sections below.. You've made a strong statement here concerning gnus screwing you over: Rat was clearly talking about a real calamity of *LOST* mail. You were talking about a situation were you `lost mail' as if comparable. Then it turned out you lost no mail at all, and further that the software screwing you over, saved it in backup files for you. Something designed into it for just such an event. That was what piqued my interest. ======================================== Message-ID: <87n122s9k8.fsf@squeaker.lickey.com> Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > * "Jason R. Mastaler" <jason-dated-1005548826.22b028@mastaler.com> on Sun, 04 Nov 2001 > | Anyway, Postfix and Exim are reasonable Sendmail-alternatives as well. > > They are -not- reasonable for -all- cases. I have seen Postfix's > parallelization totally cripple my network at work. As far as we > could figure, Postfix did not ratchet down fast enough and the end > result was a crashed firewall MTA and an unknown quantity of lost > mail. We reset everything and Postfix did it again. I have little [...] ======================================== Matt writes: Message-ID: <87n122s9k8.fsf@squeaker.lickey.com> FUD -- you can configure postfix such that there is zero possibility that it'll flood your network. ======================================== Rat writes: Message-ID: <m3y9lmqn5t.fsf@peorth.gweep.net> * "Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1007488665.146847@lickey.com> on Sun, 04 Nov 2001 | FUD -- you can configure postfix such that there is zero possibility | that it'll flood your network. Your -assertion- does not make it so. The fact that it -has- happened is sufficient reason to be wary of it, because there is a non-zero possibility of it happening again, no matter what you say. ======================================== Matt Writes Message-ID: <87g07tgqeu.fsf@squeaker.lickey.com> Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > * "Matt Armstrong" <matt+dated+1007488665.146847@lickey.com> on Sun, 04 Nov 2001 > | FUD -- you can configure postfix such that there is zero possibility > | that it'll flood your network. > > Your -assertion- does not make it so. > > The fact that it -has- happened is sufficient reason to be wary of it, > because there is a non-zero possibility of it happening again, no matter > what you say. Of course, if I dumped every software package that ever screwed me over due to a mis-configuration, I'd have dumped Gnus years ago. ;-) ======================================== ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-05 19:33 ` Harry Putnam ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2001-11-05 20:35 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-06 19:52 ` Steinar Bang 3 siblings, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Steinar Bang @ 2001-11-06 19:52 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com>: > Matt, has gnus actually ever lost mail for you... I've never heard > any one say that? I've lost mail to an expiry bug, back in 1997 or thereabouts. Note: not new incoming mail though. It just expired all my ticked articles in nnml groups. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-04 7:07 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-04 9:04 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-04 17:33 ` François Pinard 1 sibling, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: François Pinard @ 2001-11-04 17:33 UTC (permalink / raw) [Jason R. Mastaler] > I'm the first to admit DJB has a god-complex and the social graces of a > water buffalo. I use this software because it's brilliant, not because > of his personality or lack thereof. I do what's best for me, and can > leave my ego at the door to achieve that. It all depends on what's is best for you. If someone is ready to accept or even caution anything as long as he makes some profit of it, he is the least of Ferrengis :-), and becomes a bit despisable himself. I do not question Daniel competence. But his software is not free despite what's written, and as such, I would not accept the ambiguity nor the lie. What is best for me is fresh air, freedom, and pleasurable people. Lars gave me that, and I tried to return the favour. These are human values, and also where my values stand. For me at least, software is not an end in itself. -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-04 5:54 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-04 7:07 ` Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-04 17:23 ` François Pinard 1 sibling, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: François Pinard @ 2001-11-04 17:23 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: (ding) [Stainless Steel Rat] > Yeah, but you know, not using qmail has one really, really important benfit > to me: I don't use qmail. Whether or not qmail sucks is not the issue. > Dan Bernstein is the issue. I simply refuse to voluntarilly use any of > his software, and there is absolutely nothing that anyone can say that > will get me to change my mind, simple as that. I heartedly agree. Daniel has beaten all known records for the rate at which one may create own enemies. He kept silent and quiet for many years, maybe so people may forget him, but I've no proof the guy is different. Note that I never had problems personally with him, but seeing how he behaved with many, many others, I just do not want that guy in my life. Besides, whatever the license is, however competent is the writer, haughtily maintained software is never as free as it appears to be. When someone is spitting on you and you may not easily run away, you just can't feel free. The best way to not become dependent on Qmail is to never start using it. -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-03 18:56 ` Fabien Penso 2001-11-03 19:24 ` Robin S. Socha @ 2001-11-03 20:32 ` Russ Allbery 1 sibling, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Russ Allbery @ 2001-11-03 20:32 UTC (permalink / raw) Fabien Penso <penso@linuxfr.org> writes: > Would you be nice enough to tell why you don't like procmail ? Have you ever looked at the procmail source code? -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-03 14:48 ` thoughts on spam Bill White 2001-11-03 15:12 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 2001-11-03 18:15 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-04 4:08 ` Bill White 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Harry Putnam @ 2001-11-03 18:15 UTC (permalink / raw) "Bill White" <billw@wolfram.com> writes: > On Sat Nov 03 2001 at 00:33, "Jason R. Mastaler" > <jason-dated-1005460420.45cb81@mastaler.com> said: >> I hate to brag, but I used to get 800-1000 pieces of spam every [...] Robin says: > Bragging's no good without mentioning the product itself, D00d3... > http://tmda.sourceforge.net/ rocks more than words can describe. And > it comes free with your free @my.gnus.org accounts :-) Bill Says: > Nice testimonials - I'm downloading now... I guess Bill really does hate to brag... He never did outline what he does... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-03 18:15 ` Harry Putnam @ 2001-11-04 4:08 ` Bill White 2001-11-04 4:04 ` Harry Putnam 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Bill White @ 2001-11-04 4:08 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding On Sat Nov 03 2001 at 12:15, Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> said: > "Bill White" <billw@wolfram.com> writes: > >> On Sat Nov 03 2001 at 00:33, "Jason R. Mastaler" >> <jason-dated-1005460420.45cb81@mastaler.com> said: > > >>> I hate to brag, but I used to get 800-1000 pieces of spam every > [...] > > Robin says: > > Bragging's no good without mentioning the product itself, D00d3... >> http://tmda.sourceforge.net/ rocks more than words can describe. And >> it comes free with your free @my.gnus.org accounts :-) > > Bill Says: > > Nice testimonials - I'm downloading now... > > I guess Bill really does hate to brag... He never did outline what > he does... Eh? My low-tech approach is in <m34rocwi27.fsf_-_@wolfram.com>. Must have been snipped in some quotes. I (Joe Q. Luser) am now attempting to enter the strange new world of qmail on a standard-issue redhat box whilst a 4-year-old boy and a 3-year-old girl watch Thomas the Tank Engine videos two feet away. Whee! Saints Ignucious and Isidore of Seville, ora pro me. bw -- Bill White Office: 5E-Z15 Documentation Programmer Phone: 217-398-0700 x 234 Wolfram Research Fax: 217-398-0747 http://members.wri.com/billw [currently working from home most days] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-04 4:08 ` Bill White @ 2001-11-04 4:04 ` Harry Putnam 0 siblings, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Harry Putnam @ 2001-11-04 4:04 UTC (permalink / raw) "Bill White" <billw@wolfram.com> writes: >> I guess Bill really does hate to brag... He never did outline what >> he does... > > Eh? My low-tech approach is in <m34rocwi27.fsf_-_@wolfram.com>. Must > have been snipped in some quotes. Sorry Bill, I saw that.. I guess I was expecting some kind of scripting or something. Or maybe just a senior moment or rolling blackout or maybe a meterorite hit me, I had four flat tires, my glasses broke, there was a DNS glitch in Mae-west, gnus broke wind, Twiggy was on tv, lunar eclipse, my DSL line got tangled up with my stereo wiring and all my mail was turned into .wav files...... It wasn't my fault. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-03 5:16 ` thoughts on spam Bill White 2001-11-03 6:33 ` Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-04 4:07 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-04 7:11 ` Bill White 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Harry Putnam @ 2001-11-04 4:07 UTC (permalink / raw) "Bill White" <billw@wolfram.com> writes: > Hm - I need a way to sort the Summary buffer based on whether a "+" > appears at a specific column in each line so "+" messages could float > to the top. Doesn't that + just represent an above default score? If so you can limit according to score. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-04 4:07 ` Harry Putnam @ 2001-11-04 7:11 ` Bill White 2001-11-04 7:10 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-04 13:47 ` Harry Putnam 0 siblings, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Bill White @ 2001-11-04 7:11 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding On Sat Nov 03 2001 at 22:07, Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> said: > "Bill White" <billw@wolfram.com> writes: > >> Hm - I need a way to sort the Summary buffer based on whether a "+" >> appears at a specific column in each line so "+" messages could >> float to the top. > > Doesn't that + just represent an above default score? If so you can > limit according to score. Well, I tried scoring seriously for a few months but I found that scoring and I just don't get along. What I'm doing with the "+" is in the bbdb info file at <info://bbdb/Reader-specific+Features/Gnus-speci fic+Features/Gnus+Summary+Buffer+Enhancements> (I hope that url thingy works right - does it work when broken across lines like <url:> does?). I guess I could use scoring *only* to increase the score of bbdb-known posters (somehow) and then limit... hmm... Jason's tmda sounds awfully good, though (if it weren't for the scary qmail hoops of fire). Bill "gnus: where even my goofy ideas work, sometimes" -- Bill White Office: 5E-Z15 Documentation Programmer Phone: 217-398-0700 x 234 Wolfram Research Fax: 217-398-0747 http://members.wri.com/billw [currently working from home most days] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-04 7:11 ` Bill White @ 2001-11-04 7:10 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-04 13:47 ` Harry Putnam 1 sibling, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-04 7:10 UTC (permalink / raw) "Bill White" <billw@wolfram.com> writes: > Jason's tmda sounds awfully good, though (if it weren't for the > scary qmail hoops of fire). :-) Well, I think qmail is worth the initial cognitive distortion, but if the fire gets too hot, Postfix and Exim are alternatives as I mentioned. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: thoughts on spam 2001-11-04 7:11 ` Bill White 2001-11-04 7:10 ` Jason R. Mastaler @ 2001-11-04 13:47 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-04 17:45 ` bbdb arcana Bill White 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Harry Putnam @ 2001-11-04 13:47 UTC (permalink / raw) "Bill White" <billw@wolfram.com> writes: >> Doesn't that + just represent an above default score? If so you can >> limit according to score. > > Well, I tried scoring seriously for a few months but I found that > scoring and I just don't get along. What I'm doing with the "+" is in > the bbdb info file at: > <info://bbdb/Reader-specific+Features/Gnus-specific+Features/ > Gnus+Summary+Buffer+Enhancements> Oh, I see that it has nothing to do with a higher score. Sorry. Here, when a message has above default score a + sign appears. And has for ages. Not bbdb related but some default indicating a scored message. I thought it might be related. Incidently, at the info page you cited, an incremental `i' search finds not one instance of `+' > > (I hope that url thingy works right - does it work when broken across > lines like <url:> does?). It didn't for me, no. However I edited it so it wasn't wrapped and then it did. I've been noticing something with those URL that will appear shortly in a separate post... But I've noticed this on a few of those URL. Instead of being swept away to that formatted info section, I get swept away to the top of the raw bbdb.info This is bbdb.info, produced by makeinfo version 4.0 from bbdb.texinfo. INFO-DIR-SECTION Emacs START-INFO-DIR-ENTRY * BBDB: (bbdb). The Insidious Big Brother Database. END-INFO-DIR-ENTRY ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* bbdb arcana 2001-11-04 13:47 ` Harry Putnam @ 2001-11-04 17:45 ` Bill White 0 siblings, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Bill White @ 2001-11-04 17:45 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding On Sun Nov 04 2001 at 07:47, Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> said: > Incidently, at the info page you cited, an incremental `i' search > finds not one instance of `+' Ah - "+" is the value of bbdb/gnus-summary-known-poster-mark, and it's used in my gnus-summary-line-format via %ub: (setq gnus-summary-line-format "%U%R|%(%uy%)|%4L|%ub|%-30,30f| %B%s\n") so I get things like |Sun 11/04/01 07:17| 25|+|NAGY Andras | Re: possible gnus-sieve bug |Sun 11/04/01 08:29| 42|+|Harry Putnam | Info URLS |Sun 11/04/01 08:33| 14|+|ShengHuo ZHU | Re: [PATCH] Bug fix for mail-followup-to |Sun 11/04/01 08:49| 15|+|Steinar Bang | Re: Sieve support? and |Sat 10/20/01 09:11| 172| |"ewuhe@mail-online.dk" <ewuhe@| FW: Inst antly+Att ract+Women+Sexually! |Sun 10/21/01 14:01| 307| |harleyrags@aol.com | Anti-Aging Is Here ! 2063 |Sun 10/21/01 05:45| 14| |ptodorgh9899@gofree.co.uk | Anthrax Info bilab |Sun 10/21/01 11:51| 117| |e25717@mail.ru | $5000 Approvals Guaranteed! Complete Credit Source, |Sun 10/21/01 12:21| 186| |JKJMVHVAY@yahoo.com | Reach The Worlds Rich And Famous 26146 ,----[ <info://bbdb/Reader-specific+Features/Gnus-specific+Features/Gnus+Summary+Buffer+Enhancements> ] | Marking Posters | | [...] | | If no such field is present, the value of | `bbdb/gnus-summary-known-poster-mark' will be used instead. If the | author is not in the BBDB, a space will be used as the mark character. `---- ,----[ C-h v bbdb/gnus-summary-known-poster-mark RET ] | bbdb/gnus-summary-known-poster-mark's value is "+" | | Documentation: | This is the default character to prefix author names with if | bbdb/gnus-summary-mark-known-posters is t. If the poster's record has | an entry in the field named by bbdb-message-marker-field, then that will | be used instead. | | You can customize this variable. | | Defined in `bbdb-gnus'. `---- Cheers - bw -- Bill White Office: 5E-Z15 Documentation Programmer Phone: 217-398-0700 x 234 Wolfram Research Fax: 217-398-0747 http://members.wri.com/billw [currently working from home most days] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-11-02 8:31 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-11-02 16:09 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-11-07 13:43 ` Maciej Matysiak 1 sibling, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Maciej Matysiak @ 2001-11-07 13:43 UTC (permalink / raw) On the 2nd of November 2001 at 09:31, Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) wrote: >> (setq gnus-parameters '( >> ("ding-l-.*" >> (to-address . "ding@gnus.org") >> (to-list . "ding@gnus.org")))) >> it works nice, but why the list address is not visible in 'gnus customize' >> buffer (in fields 'to address' and 'to list')? > Well, suppose you have the above in gnus-parameters and then hit `G > c' on a group ding-l-foo, and change the parameter there. What > should happen to the value of gnus-parameters? it should be overridden by customized value, imho. > And what should happen to the setq statement which asks the Oracle > of Delphi to compute the right gnus-parameters value for the current > phase of the moon? sorry, i have a terrible headache today ;) m.m. -- use gnus not guns! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-18 18:17 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-18 23:19 ` Maciej Matysiak @ 2001-10-19 4:48 ` Per Abrahamsen 2001-10-19 13:46 ` Josh Huber 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 2001-10-19 4:48 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes: > Ah, I see. And we can assume that a to-list or to-address group > parameter means it's a mailing list. No we can't at least not "to-list". I set that for all my "people" folders, so I can send mail to each person just by pressing "a" while one their folder. Maybe "to-address" is safe, but otherwise we need an additional indication that something is a mailing list. > Of course, the easy way out is an mft group parameter :-) A mft boolean plus to-list or to-address (I don't want to edit the address in two places). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 4:48 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 2001-10-19 13:46 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 14:08 ` Per Abrahamsen ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Josh Huber @ 2001-10-19 13:46 UTC (permalink / raw) Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: > No we can't at least not "to-list". I set that for all my "people" > folders, so I can send mail to each person just by pressing "a" > while one their folder. Ok, so maybe my idea of turning on mft in certain groups was a good idea after all? > A mft boolean plus to-list or to-address (I don't want to edit the > address in two places). So, we could have a group parameter gnus-use-mft, and to set it for many groups we could use gnus-parameters? (setq gnus-parameters '(("^mail\\.lists\\..*" (gnus-use-mft . t)))) So, what would be the best way to use this flag? A meta header like X-Gnus-Use-MFT: true that is inserted into the message buffer? (I forget who suggested this...) ttyl, -- Josh Huber ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 13:46 ` Josh Huber @ 2001-10-19 14:08 ` Per Abrahamsen 2001-10-19 15:49 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-19 15:29 ` Matt Armstrong ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 2001-10-19 14:08 UTC (permalink / raw) Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> writes: > Ok, so maybe my idea of turning on mft in certain groups was a good > idea after all? Yes, >> A mft boolean plus to-list or to-address (I don't want to edit the >> address in two places). > > So, we could have a group parameter gnus-use-mft, and to set it for > many groups we could use gnus-parameters? > > (setq gnus-parameters > '(("^mail\\.lists\\..*" (gnus-use-mft . t)))) Yes, except I'd rather call it 'mailing-list' instead 'gnus-use-mft'. 'gnus-' is redundant, and using a generic name for the flag might open it for other use. > So, what would be the best way to use this flag? A meta header like > > X-Gnus-Use-MFT: true Why not just insert: Mail-Followup-To: <(or to-address to-list "")> ? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 14:08 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 2001-10-19 15:49 ` Paul Jarc 0 siblings, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-19 15:49 UTC (permalink / raw) Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> wrote: > Why not just insert: > > Mail-Followup-To: <(or to-address to-list "")> The content of an automatically generated MFT is always copied from To+Cc just before sending (after editing). It's like with news: no Followup-To means "follow up to the same set of recipients". Mail has a different default (same recipients+sender), so automatic MFT provides a default-news-like meaning. (If you want a different MFT, you specify it yourself.) <URL:http://cr.yp.to/proto/replyto.html> paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 13:46 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 14:08 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 2001-10-19 15:29 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-19 16:19 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-19 15:42 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-19 16:31 ` Kai Großjohann 3 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-19 15:29 UTC (permalink / raw) Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> writes: > Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: > >> No we can't at least not "to-list". I set that for all my "people" >> folders, so I can send mail to each person just by pressing "a" >> while one their folder. I had a lingering suspicion that neither to-list nor to-address always implied the user was subscribed. > Ok, so maybe my idea of turning on mft in certain groups was a good > idea after all? To be specific, "turning on mft" for a group should only mean that the to-address or to-list parameters in that group are considered "subscribed." I.e. e-mail sent to those addresses will get to you. >> A mft boolean plus to-list or to-address (I don't want to edit the >> address in two places). > > So, we could have a group parameter gnus-use-mft, and to set it for > many groups we could use gnus-parameters? > > (setq gnus-parameters > '(("^mail\\.lists\\..*" (gnus-use-mft . t)))) Instead of gnus-use-mft, it should be 'subscribed' or 'is-subscribed'. Then the description for the parameter can be something like: If subscribed set to t, then the to-address parameter in this group is considered to "subscribed" (i.e. mail sent to these addresses gets to you). If to-address is unset, then to-list is consulted. This parameter makes it a little easier for you to maintain the list of groups you are subscribed to. This list is used in the generation of the Mail-Followup-To: header. See <link: Mail-Followup-To generation>. Can we ignore the to-list parameter? If set, it should always be equal to to-address, right? > So, what would be the best way to use this flag? This flag replaces your original idea of using a regexp to specify the list of groups which contain "subscribed" addresses. Now, we go through all the groups and ignore those that don't have the 'subscribed' parameter set. -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 15:29 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-19 16:19 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-19 19:29 ` Matt Armstrong 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-19 16:19 UTC (permalink / raw) Matt Armstrong <matt@lickey.com> wrote: > Instead of gnus-use-mft, it should be 'subscribed' or > 'is-subscribed'. Then the description for the parameter can be > something like: > > If subscribed set to t, then the to-address parameter in this > group is considered to "subscribed" (i.e. mail sent to these > addresses gets to you). If to-address is unset, then to-list is > consulted. to-list should be consulted in any case. There's no reason we can't use both. > Can we ignore the to-list parameter? If set, it should always be > equal to to-address, right? to-address is not always set. to-address is a wrong-side kluge that attempts to solve the problem that MFT really does solve. I always use to-list, and never to-address. As MFT becomes more widely supported, to-address will become less useful. >> So, what would be the best way to use this flag? > > This flag replaces your original idea of using a regexp to specify the > list of groups which contain "subscribed" addresses. Now, we go > through all the groups and ignore those that don't have the > 'subscribed' parameter set. Sounds good to me. paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 16:19 ` Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-19 19:29 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-19 19:44 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 20:59 ` Kai Großjohann 0 siblings, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-19 19:29 UTC (permalink / raw) prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes: > to-address is not always set. to-address is a wrong-side kluge that > attempts to solve the problem that MFT really does solve. I always > use to-list, and never to-address. As MFT becomes more widely > supported, to-address will become less useful. You're right -- I my understanding was backwards. I wonder why to-address isn't just a boolean meaning "use to-list for all followups." -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 19:29 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-19 19:44 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 20:59 ` Kai Großjohann 1 sibling, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Josh Huber @ 2001-10-19 19:44 UTC (permalink / raw) Matt Armstrong <matt@lickey.com> writes: > I wonder why to-address isn't just a boolean meaning "use to-list > for all followups." good question... -- Josh Huber ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 19:29 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-19 19:44 ` Josh Huber @ 2001-10-19 20:59 ` Kai Großjohann 1 sibling, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2001-10-19 20:59 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Matt Armstrong <matt@lickey.com> writes: > I wonder why to-address isn't just a boolean meaning "use to-list for > all followups." That's a very good suggestion. Why not allow `t' as a value in the meantime? Then the current semantics could be phased out gradually. My guess as to why the feature isn't there is hysterical raisins. Maybe to-address was there first, but then to-list was added because to-address did too much. kai -- GNU/Linux provides a nice `poweroff' command, but where is `poweron'? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 13:46 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 14:08 ` Per Abrahamsen 2001-10-19 15:29 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-19 15:42 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-19 16:16 ` Per Abrahamsen 2001-10-19 16:31 ` Kai Großjohann 3 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-19 15:42 UTC (permalink / raw) Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> wrote: > Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: >> No we can't at least not "to-list". I set that for all my "people" >> folders, so I can send mail to each person just by pressing "a" >> while one their folder. > > Ok, so maybe my idea of turning on mft in certain groups was a good > idea after all? It should still be determined according to some set of addresses. We just shouldn't force all to-list addresses into that set. The previous idea of having a list of addresses, dynamically augmented when we send a message, will still work. Per just won't include all to-list addresses in his list. > So, what would be the best way to use this flag? A meta header like > > X-Gnus-Use-MFT: true > > that is inserted into the message buffer? > > (I forget who suggested this...) I did, but that was before Matt suggested the list of addresses. I don't think it's a good idea anymore. An automatically generated MFT is used to prevent followups being copied to the sender, because the sender will already get a copy through one of the other addresses. So MFT generation should always be controlled by the To+Cc list at the time of [C-c C-c]/[C-c C-s], not beforehand. paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 15:42 ` Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-19 16:16 ` Per Abrahamsen 2001-10-19 16:25 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-19 17:51 ` Kai Großjohann 0 siblings, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 2001-10-19 16:16 UTC (permalink / raw) I think Paul Jarc is right: 1. Ignore folders. 2. No magic headers. 3. A single variable: (defcustom message-subscribed-lists nil "A list of regexps matching mailing list you are subscribed to. Automatically set the Mail-Followup-To header to the combined content of the To and CC headers when sending a mail message where an adress in the To or CC header matches one or more of the entries in this list. The effect is that you won't recieve private copies of answers to the message from users of mail clients that implements the Mail-Followup-To header." :type '(repeat (regexp :tag "List address")) :group 'message) The Mail-Followup-To header is inserted only after the user have called message-send. I'd have prefered to do something smart with folders, since I use folders for everything. But given the intented content of MFT (= To + Cc), I don't think that would be robust. A side advantage of this is that it can be implemented entirely in Message, with no Gnus knowledge. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 16:16 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 2001-10-19 16:25 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-19 17:01 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 17:51 ` Kai Großjohann 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-19 16:25 UTC (permalink / raw) Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> wrote: > I think Paul Jarc is right: I think you may have misunderstood me a bit, or you may be agreeing with ideas that I don't like anymore. :) > 1. Ignore folders. I would say we should *allow* to-list and to-address to help make the decision, but not require it. > 2. No magic headers. Right. > 3. A single variable: > > (defcustom message-subscribed-lists nil > "A list of regexps matching mailing list you are subscribed to. This is good as long as it's possible to dynamically augment it from to-list/to-address during message-send. I don't want to have to maintain two copies of the same information. > I'd have prefered to do something smart with folders, since I use > folders for everything. But given the intented content of MFT (= To + Cc), > I don't think that would be robust. The content is easy; it's the presence that's tricky. Using group parameters is a useful tool here, if not exhaustive. paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 16:25 ` Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-19 17:01 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 17:04 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 20:16 ` Paul Jarc 0 siblings, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Josh Huber @ 2001-10-19 17:01 UTC (permalink / raw) prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes: [snip] Okay, I've put together a preliminary patch to message.el against cvs gnus. Here it is: Index: message.el =================================================================== RCS file: /usr/local/cvsroot/gnus/lisp/message.el,v retrieving revision 6.131 diff -u -r6.131 message.el --- message.el 2001/10/17 17:53:42 6.131 +++ message.el 2001/10/19 16:52:24 @@ -424,6 +424,24 @@ (const use) (const ask))) +(defcustom message-mft-address-functions nil + "*Specifies functions for determining list subscription. +If nil, do not attempt to determine list subscribtion with functions. +If non-nil, this variable contains a list of functions which return +regular expressions to match lists. One such useful function might be +`gnus-get-subscribed-addresses'. These functions can be used in +conjunction with `message-mft-regexps'." + :group 'message-interface + :type '(repeat sexp)) + +(defcustom message-mft-regexps nil + "*Specifies a list of addresses the user is subscribed to. +If nil, do not use any predefined list subscriptions. This list of +regular expressions can be used in conjuction with +`message-mft-address-functions'." + :group 'message-interface + :type '(repeat regexp)) + (defcustom message-sendmail-f-is-evil nil "*Non-nil means don't add \"-f username\" to the sendmail command line. Doing so would be even more evil than leaving it out." @@ -1468,6 +1486,7 @@ (define-key message-mode-map "\C-c\C-f\C-n" 'message-goto-newsgroups) (define-key message-mode-map "\C-c\C-f\C-d" 'message-goto-distribution) (define-key message-mode-map "\C-c\C-f\C-f" 'message-goto-followup-to) + (define-key message-mode-map "\C-c\C-f\C-m" 'message-goto-mail-followup-to) (define-key message-mode-map "\C-c\C-f\C-k" 'message-goto-keywords) (define-key message-mode-map "\C-c\C-f\C-u" 'message-goto-summary) (define-key message-mode-map "\C-c\C-b" 'message-goto-body) @@ -1547,6 +1566,7 @@ ["Keywords" message-goto-keywords t] ["Newsgroups" message-goto-newsgroups t] ["Followup-To" message-goto-followup-to t] + ["Mail-Followup-To" message-goto-mail-followup-to t] ["Distribution" message-goto-distribution t] ["Body" message-goto-body t] ["Signature" message-goto-signature t])) @@ -1570,6 +1590,7 @@ C-c C-f C-u move to Summary C-c C-f C-n move to Newsgroups C-c C-f C-k move to Keywords C-c C-f C-d move to Distribution C-c C-f C-f move to Followup-To + C-c C-f C-m move to Mail-Followup-To C-c C-t `message-insert-to' (add a To header to a news followup) C-c C-n `message-insert-newsgroups' (add a Newsgroup header to a news reply) C-c C-b `message-goto-body' (move to beginning of message text). @@ -1714,6 +1735,11 @@ (interactive) (message-position-on-field "Followup-To" "Newsgroups")) +(defun message-goto-mail-followup-to () + "Move point to the Mail-Followup-To header." + (interactive) + (message-position-on-field "Mail-Followup-To" "From")) + (defun message-goto-keywords () "Move point to the Keywords header." (interactive) @@ -2514,6 +2540,15 @@ (let ((message-deletable-headers (if news nil message-deletable-headers))) (message-generate-headers message-required-mail-headers)) + ;; Generate the Mail-Followup-To header... + ;; only if the header doesn't exist. + (when (and (or message-mft-regexps message-mft-address-functions) + (not (message-fetch-field "mail-followup-to"))) + (let ((Mail-Followup-To (message-make-mft))) + (message-generate-headers '((optional . Mail-Followup-To))))) + ;; otherwise, delete the MFT header if the value is "off" + (and (string= "off" (message-fetch-field "mail-followup-to")) + (message-remove-header "Mail-Followup-To")) ;; Let the user do all of the above. (run-hooks 'message-header-hook)) (unwind-protect @@ -3523,6 +3558,17 @@ "Return the domain name." (or mail-host-address (message-make-fqdn))) + +(defun message-make-mft () + "Return the Mail-Followup-To header." + (let ((recipients (message-options-get 'message-recipients)) + (mft-regexps (apply 'append message-mft-regexps + (mapcar '(lambda (func) (funcall func)) + message-mft-address-functions)))) + (and (eval `(or ,@(mapcar '(lambda (regexp) + (and regexp (string-match regexp recipients))) + mft-regexps))) + recipients))) (defun message-generate-headers (headers) "Prepare article HEADERS. Now, there is more to do. A function which does what we've been discussing (pulling to-list/to-address from group parameters under certain cases) has yet to be written -- but, this does allow you to set message-mft-regexps and have it behave like people want it to. (I *THINK*) There are a couple things I don't like about what I've done so far: 1) is this the proper way to generate the header? see message-send-mail changes. It just looks a little funny, 2) the macro in message-make-mft is only to get around the fact that you can't seem to (apply 'or (nil nil nil nil)) -- elisp won't let you use apply on or. is there a better way to do what I want to do? suggestions about the overall logic there would be good -- I'm way out of practice with lisp/scheme. This code expects the functions called from message-mft-address-functions to return lists of regular expressions, and expects message-mft-regexps to be a list of regular expressions. Who's going to write gnus-subscribed-addresses now? :) ttyl, -- Josh Huber ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 17:01 ` Josh Huber @ 2001-10-19 17:04 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 19:46 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-19 20:16 ` Paul Jarc 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Josh Huber @ 2001-10-19 17:04 UTC (permalink / raw) Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> writes: > + (and (string= "off" (message-fetch-field "mail-followup-to")) > + (message-remove-header "Mail-Followup-To")) Ah, one more thing. message-fetch-field returns nil even if the header is there, but empty, so I've resorted to this hack to disable MFT generation on a case-by-case basis. Thoughts? -- Josh Huber ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 17:04 ` Josh Huber @ 2001-10-19 19:46 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-19 19:54 ` Paul Jarc 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-19 19:46 UTC (permalink / raw) Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> wrote: > Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> writes: >> + (and (string= "off" (message-fetch-field "mail-followup-to")) >> + (message-remove-header "Mail-Followup-To")) > > Ah, one more thing. message-fetch-field returns nil even if the > header is there, but empty, so I've resorted to this hack to disable > MFT generation on a case-by-case basis. Thoughts? mail-fetch-field is willing to return "". We could check for that, and then use message-fetch-field to get a cleaner string. That might be a bit less ugly. Or maybe it's a bug that message-fetch-field isn't willing to return ""? paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 19:46 ` Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-19 19:54 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-19 20:05 ` Josh Huber 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-19 19:54 UTC (permalink / raw) I wrote: > Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> wrote: >> Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> writes: >>> + (and (string= "off" (message-fetch-field "mail-followup-to")) >>> + (message-remove-header "Mail-Followup-To")) ... > mail-fetch-field is willing to return "". We could check for that, > and then use message-fetch-field to get a cleaner string. And I just noticed that we don't actually need to get a cleaner string at all. So mail-fetch-field alone should work. paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 19:54 ` Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-19 20:05 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 20:50 ` Matt Armstrong 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Josh Huber @ 2001-10-19 20:05 UTC (permalink / raw) prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes: > And I just noticed that we don't actually need to get a cleaner > string at all. So mail-fetch-field alone should work. Indeed... here's the new version: Index: message.el =================================================================== RCS file: /usr/local/cvsroot/gnus/lisp/message.el,v retrieving revision 6.131 diff -u -r6.131 message.el --- message.el 2001/10/17 17:53:42 6.131 +++ message.el 2001/10/19 20:01:31 @@ -424,6 +424,24 @@ (const use) (const ask))) +(defcustom message-mft-address-functions nil + "*Specifies functions for determining list subscription. +If nil, do not attempt to determine list subscribtion with functions. +If non-nil, this variable contains a list of functions which return +regular expressions to match lists. One such useful function might be +`gnus-get-subscribed-addresses'. These functions can be used in +conjunction with `message-mft-regexps'." + :group 'message-interface + :type '(repeat sexp)) + +(defcustom message-mft-regexps nil + "*Specifies a list of addresses the user is subscribed to. +If nil, do not use any predefined list subscriptions. This list of +regular expressions can be used in conjuction with +`message-mft-address-functions'." + :group 'message-interface + :type '(repeat regexp)) + (defcustom message-sendmail-f-is-evil nil "*Non-nil means don't add \"-f username\" to the sendmail command line. Doing so would be even more evil than leaving it out." @@ -1468,6 +1486,7 @@ (define-key message-mode-map "\C-c\C-f\C-n" 'message-goto-newsgroups) (define-key message-mode-map "\C-c\C-f\C-d" 'message-goto-distribution) (define-key message-mode-map "\C-c\C-f\C-f" 'message-goto-followup-to) + (define-key message-mode-map "\C-c\C-f\C-m" 'message-goto-mail-followup-to) (define-key message-mode-map "\C-c\C-f\C-k" 'message-goto-keywords) (define-key message-mode-map "\C-c\C-f\C-u" 'message-goto-summary) (define-key message-mode-map "\C-c\C-b" 'message-goto-body) @@ -1547,6 +1566,7 @@ ["Keywords" message-goto-keywords t] ["Newsgroups" message-goto-newsgroups t] ["Followup-To" message-goto-followup-to t] + ["Mail-Followup-To" message-goto-mail-followup-to t] ["Distribution" message-goto-distribution t] ["Body" message-goto-body t] ["Signature" message-goto-signature t])) @@ -1570,6 +1590,7 @@ C-c C-f C-u move to Summary C-c C-f C-n move to Newsgroups C-c C-f C-k move to Keywords C-c C-f C-d move to Distribution C-c C-f C-f move to Followup-To + C-c C-f C-m move to Mail-Followup-To C-c C-t `message-insert-to' (add a To header to a news followup) C-c C-n `message-insert-newsgroups' (add a Newsgroup header to a news reply) C-c C-b `message-goto-body' (move to beginning of message text). @@ -1714,6 +1735,11 @@ (interactive) (message-position-on-field "Followup-To" "Newsgroups")) +(defun message-goto-mail-followup-to () + "Move point to the Mail-Followup-To header." + (interactive) + (message-position-on-field "Mail-Followup-To" "From")) + (defun message-goto-keywords () "Move point to the Keywords header." (interactive) @@ -2514,6 +2540,15 @@ (let ((message-deletable-headers (if news nil message-deletable-headers))) (message-generate-headers message-required-mail-headers)) + ;; Generate the Mail-Followup-To header... + ;; only if the header doesn't exist. + (when (and (or message-mft-regexps message-mft-address-functions) + (not (message-fetch-field "mail-followup-to"))) + (let ((Mail-Followup-To (message-make-mft))) + (message-generate-headers '((optional . Mail-Followup-To))))) + ;; otherwise, delete the MFT header if the field is empty + (and (string= "" (mail-fetch-field "mail-followup-to")) + (message-remove-header "Mail-Followup-To")) ;; Let the user do all of the above. (run-hooks 'message-header-hook)) (unwind-protect @@ -3523,6 +3558,17 @@ "Return the domain name." (or mail-host-address (message-make-fqdn))) + +(defun message-make-mft () + "Return the Mail-Followup-To header." + (let ((recipients (message-options-get 'message-recipients)) + (mft-regexps (apply 'append message-mft-regexps + (mapcar '(lambda (func) (funcall func)) + message-mft-address-functions)))) + (and (eval `(or ,@(mapcar '(lambda (regexp) + (and regexp (string-match regexp recipients))) + mft-regexps))) + recipients))) (defun message-generate-headers (headers) "Prepare article HEADERS. here's a little support code for enabling it look at the group parameters: ;;*=========================== ;;* Mail-Followup-To settings (setq gnus-parameters '(("^mail\\.lists\\." (subscribed . t)))) (defun jmh-find-subscribed-addresses () (delete-if nil (mapcar '(lambda (group) (or (gnus-group-find-parameter group 'to-address) (gnus-group-find-parameter group 'to-list))) (delete-if-not '(lambda (group) (gnus-group-find-parameter group 'subscribed)) (mapcar '(lambda (item) (car item)) gnus-newsrc-alist))))) (add-to-list 'message-mft-address-functions (lambda () (mapcar 'regexp-quote (jmh-find-subscribed-addresses)))) Does anyone have any suggestions? Running the -find-subscribed-addresses just once as a utility function and storing those values in the message-mft-regexps variable would be a good idea, especially since, at least my version, seems to run pretty slow. (.5 second pause) ttyl, -- Josh Huber ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 20:05 ` Josh Huber @ 2001-10-19 20:50 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-19 21:12 ` Paul Jarc 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-19 20:50 UTC (permalink / raw) Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> writes: > +(defcustom message-mft-address-functions nil > + "*Specifies functions for determining list subscription. > +If nil, do not attempt to determine list subscribtion with functions. > +If non-nil, this variable contains a list of functions which return > +regular expressions to match lists. One such useful function might be > +`gnus-get-subscribed-addresses'. These functions can be used in > +conjunction with `message-mft-regexps'." > + :group 'message-interface > + :type '(repeat sexp)) > + > +(defcustom message-mft-regexps nil > + "*Specifies a list of addresses the user is subscribed to. > +If nil, do not use any predefined list subscriptions. This list of > +regular expressions can be used in conjuction with > +`message-mft-address-functions'." > + :group 'message-interface > + :type '(repeat regexp)) This is getting pretty cool! Since these are specifying a list of subscribed addresses, can the variables be message-subscribed-* instead of message-mft-*? Also, I don't think they should be regexps. I can't think of a case where I could described more than one list I'm subscribed to with a regexp. Even if I could I won't like having to explicitly escape all the '.' and other characters in the list addresses. I suppose in a contrived example, you could specify "topic-.*@list\\.example\\.com" to get topic-devel, topic-user, etc. but these cases are rare and people can just explicitly list all of them. So if we really want regexps, maybe: message-subscribed-address-functions message-subscribed-address-regexps message-subscribed-addresses I notice the code is doing regexp matches with strings pulled out of to-address and to-list -- technically incorrect since those aren't regexps. -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 20:50 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-19 21:12 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-20 6:52 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-20 9:41 ` Per Abrahamsen 0 siblings, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-19 21:12 UTC (permalink / raw) Matt Armstrong <matt@lickey.com> wrote: > Also, I don't think they should be regexps. I'm on the fence. > I can't think of a case where I could described more than one list > I'm subscribed to with a regexp. I can: ".*@list\.cr\.yp\.to". But I still wouldn't necessarily use this; I'd probably generate the list from my to-list parameters. > Even if I could I won't like having to explicitly escape all the '.' > and other characters in the list addresses. Do you know about regexp-quote? > I suppose in a contrived example, you could specify > "topic-.*@list\\.example\\.com" to get topic-devel, topic-user, > etc. but these cases are rare and people can just explicitly list all > of them. I don't think they're very rare. But they are certainly finite, so specifying them individually could still work. > So if we really want regexps, maybe: > > message-subscribed-address-functions > message-subscribed-address-regexps > message-subscribed-addresses Maybe. The Gnus way is typically to just do regexps, though. > I notice the code is doing regexp matches with strings pulled out of > to-address and to-list -- technically incorrect since those aren't > regexps. You didn't notice the use of regexp-quote, then. Of course, the use of it suggests that perhaps regexps should not be used. paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 21:12 ` Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-20 6:52 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-20 9:41 ` Per Abrahamsen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Josh Huber @ 2001-10-20 6:52 UTC (permalink / raw) prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes: > Matt Armstrong <matt@lickey.com> wrote: >> Also, I don't think they should be regexps. > > I'm on the fence. I think they should be regexps. As you say below, the user can just use regexp-quote to get something that matches exactly, and I'd like the ability to use a regexp. (debian-.*@lists.debian.org for example) > Maybe. The Gnus way is typically to just do regexps, though. I agree -- Josh Huber ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 21:12 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-20 6:52 ` Josh Huber @ 2001-10-20 9:41 ` Per Abrahamsen 2001-10-21 0:58 ` Matt Armstrong 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 2001-10-20 9:41 UTC (permalink / raw) prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes: > Matt Armstrong <matt@lickey.com> wrote: > >> Even if I could I won't like having to explicitly escape all the '.' >> and other characters in the list addresses. > > Do you know about regexp-quote? It doesn't help when setting the variable though customize, which is the most likely case for a user uncomfortable with regexps. >> I suppose in a contrived example, you could specify >> "topic-.*@list\\.example\\.com" to get topic-devel, topic-user, >> etc. but these cases are rare and people can just explicitly list all >> of them. > > I don't think they're very rare. But they are certainly finite, so > specifying them individually could still work. I think they are uncommon enough that even for the experienced user, listing them all explicitly would be easier ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-20 9:41 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 2001-10-21 0:58 ` Matt Armstrong 0 siblings, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-21 0:58 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: > prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes: > >> Matt Armstrong <matt@lickey.com> wrote: >> >>> Even if I could I won't like having to explicitly escape all the '.' >>> and other characters in the list addresses. >> >> Do you know about regexp-quote? > > It doesn't help when setting the variable though customize, which is > the most likely case for a user uncomfortable with regexps. The customize argument is a good point. >>> I suppose in a contrived example, you could specify >>> "topic-.*@list\\.example\\.com" to get topic-devel, topic-user, >>> etc. but these cases are rare and people can just explicitly list all >>> of them. >> >> I don't think they're very rare. But they are certainly finite, so >> specifying them individually could still work. > > I think they are uncommon enough that even for the experienced user, > listing them all explicitly would be easier It would not hurt to have one variable for a list of addresses and one variable that is a list of regexp. This satisfies experts without burdening newbies. Not that any emacs newbie would ever be successful at using Gnus without serious effort. ;-) -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 17:01 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 17:04 ` Josh Huber @ 2001-10-19 20:16 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-19 21:12 ` Josh Huber 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-19 20:16 UTC (permalink / raw) Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> wrote: > + ;; Generate the Mail-Followup-To header... > + ;; only if the header doesn't exist. > + (when (and (or message-mft-regexps message-mft-address-functions) > + (not (message-fetch-field "mail-followup-to"))) > + (let ((Mail-Followup-To (message-make-mft))) > + (message-generate-headers '((optional . Mail-Followup-To))))) That will use the symbol 'Mail-Followup-To, not its variable value. We want this: (message-generate-headers `((optional . ,Mail-Followup-To))))) Or this: (message-generate-headers (list (cons 'optional Mail-Followup-To))))) We should also check that this is a mail message, not news. > + ;; otherwise, delete the MFT header if the value is "off" > + (and (string= "off" (message-fetch-field "mail-followup-to")) > + (message-remove-header "Mail-Followup-To")) I'd use equal, not string=, or else restructure the logic so that when we reach this point, we already know that there is an MFT field. It happens that string= will interpret the value nil as the string "nil", and so this will still work as-is, but relying on that just scares me. > +(defun message-make-mft () > + "Return the Mail-Followup-To header." > + (let ((recipients (message-options-get 'message-recipients)) > + (mft-regexps (apply 'append message-mft-regexps > + (mapcar '(lambda (func) (funcall func)) > + message-mft-address-functions)))) > + (and (eval `(or ,@(mapcar '(lambda (regexp) > + (and regexp (string-match regexp recipients))) > + mft-regexps))) > + recipients))) Rather than match all regexps against the recipients, and then look for a non-nil result, we could iterate through the regexp list and stop as soon as we find a match. It'd also be better to match each regexp against each recipient address individually, using only the address itself and not the name part, instead of against the whole recipient string. > Who's going to write gnus-subscribed-addresses now? :) I volunteer to intend to do it until someone actually does it. (Hey, it worked once.) paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 20:16 ` Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-19 21:12 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 21:40 ` Paul Jarc 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Josh Huber @ 2001-10-19 21:12 UTC (permalink / raw) prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes: > That will use the symbol 'Mail-Followup-To, not its variable value. > We want this: > (message-generate-headers `((optional . ,Mail-Followup-To))))) > Or this: > (message-generate-headers (list (cons 'optional Mail-Followup-To))))) Okay, my cluelessness about macros, etc is showing. Notice my hack above: (let ((Mail-Followup-To (message-make-mft))) (message-generate-headers '(optional . Mail-Followup-To)))) This works, but I think because message-generate-headers uses the symbol name for the header name, and the variable value for the value of the header. if I did `((optional . ,Mail-Followup-To)), what would it use for the header name? Wouldn't the value be spliced in, so how would it know what to use? hmm... that function is confusing anyway. what I really want to do is pass in the equivilant of this information: 1. the header is optional (this way it won't ask the user for it if it's empty) 2. the header name is "Mail-Followup-To" 3. the header value is "..." Can someone enlighten me as to how this is supposed to be done? Am I supposed to set the symbol Mail-Followup-To to the contents of the header? Is there another way? > We should also check that this is a mail message, not news. I'm confused. At the top, inside the first let there is a (message-this-is-mail t), but below there are checks to see if this is news...for example: ... (if news nil message-deletable-headers) ... so...what is this? message-send-mail, but sometimes it's used for news? > I'd use equal, not string=, or else restructure the logic so that > when we reach this point, we already know that there is an MFT > field. It happens that string= will interpret the value nil as the > string "nil", and so this will still work as-is, but relying on that > just scares me. Okay, I changed it around and use equal instead. > Rather than match all regexps against the recipients, and then look > for a non-nil result, we could iterate through the regexp list and > stop as soon as we find a match. It'd also be better to match each > regexp against each recipient address individually, using only the > address itself and not the name part, instead of against the whole > recipient string. Yeah, that would be better, but extracting the address part might be hard. (have you seen the regexp in the Mastering Regular Expressions book for matching an email address?) I can see splitting the string up by ',' and interatively checking each one of those with each of the regular expressions. Of course, if your regex's are exact enough, then it should work :P (btw, this setup seems to work for me with the utility function I posted for reading all the to-address/list values from group parameters) ttyl, -- Josh Huber ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 21:12 ` Josh Huber @ 2001-10-19 21:40 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-20 6:25 ` Josh Huber 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-19 21:40 UTC (permalink / raw) Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> wrote: > prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes: >> (message-generate-headers `((optional . ,Mail-Followup-To))))) > > Okay, my cluelessness about macros, etc is showing. Heh. A macro looks like (defmacro name (args) body). I forget what `(,these) forms are called, but they're not "macros". > Notice my hack above: > > (let ((Mail-Followup-To (message-make-mft))) > (message-generate-headers '(optional . Mail-Followup-To)))) > > This works, but I think because message-generate-headers uses the > symbol name for the header name, and the variable value for the value > of the header. Oops, I missed that. We would want the symbol here, then. > hmm... that function is confusing anyway. what I really want to do is > pass in the equivilant of this information: > > 1. the header is optional (this way it won't ask the user for it if it's > empty) > 2. the header name is "Mail-Followup-To" > 3. the header value is "..." A quick test says this should work: (message-generate-headers `(("Mail-Followup-To" . ,(message-make-mft)))) We're giving it a non-empty value, so 'optional shouldn't matter. And the code in message-generate-headers that doesn't use 'optional is less confusing that the code that does, so I'm more confident than I would be if I had tried to use 'optional. > Yeah, that would be better, but extracting the address part might be > hard. (have you seen the regexp in the Mastering Regular Expressions > book for matching an email address?) Fortunately, it's already done. This is from message-get-reply-headers (with my patch from yesterday): ;; Convert string to a list of (("foo@bar" . "Name <foo@bar>") ...). (setq recipients (mapcar (lambda (addr) (cons (mail-strip-quoted-names addr) addr)) (message-tokenize-header recipients))) paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 21:40 ` Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-20 6:25 ` Josh Huber 0 siblings, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Josh Huber @ 2001-10-20 6:25 UTC (permalink / raw) prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes: > Heh. A macro looks like (defmacro name (args) body). I forget what > `(,these) forms are called, but they're not "macros". Okay, you're right, but they're very often used in macros (right?)...they're templates, and C-h f backquote tells me things about them. > A quick test says this should work: > (message-generate-headers `(("Mail-Followup-To" . ,(message-make-mft)))) > We're giving it a non-empty value, so 'optional shouldn't matter. > And the code in message-generate-headers that doesn't use 'optional > is less confusing that the code that does, so I'm more confident > than I would be if I had tried to use 'optional. Okay, this looks good. Thanks for figuring this one out :) > Fortunately, it's already done. This is from > message-get-reply-headers (with my patch from yesterday): > ;; Convert string to a list of (("foo@bar" . "Name <foo@bar>") ...). > (setq recipients > (mapcar > (lambda (addr) > (cons (mail-strip-quoted-names addr) addr)) > (message-tokenize-header recipients))) ok, cool. I'll post a new version soon. -- Josh Huber ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 16:16 ` Per Abrahamsen 2001-10-19 16:25 ` Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-19 17:51 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-19 18:23 ` Josh Huber ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2001-10-19 17:51 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: > 3. A single variable: > > (defcustom message-subscribed-lists nil > "A list of regexps matching mailing list you are subscribed to. What's so bad about using group parameters for this? There is already more machinery in Gnus than most people will ever need for setting group parameters: by group name regexp (variable gnus-parameters), by topic hierarchy, separately for each group. Oh, one difference would be that my suggestion goes by the group name, but your suggestion goes by the mail address. Hm. Why is it necessary to do it by mail address? kai -- GNU/Linux provides a nice `poweroff' command, but where is `poweron'? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 17:51 ` Kai Großjohann @ 2001-10-19 18:23 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 20:31 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-19 19:26 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-20 9:51 ` Per Abrahamsen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Josh Huber @ 2001-10-19 18:23 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes: > What's so bad about using group parameters for this? > > There is already more machinery in Gnus than most people will ever > need for setting group parameters: by group name regexp (variable > gnus-parameters), by topic hierarchy, separately for each group. > > Oh, one difference would be that my suggestion goes by the group > name, but your suggestion goes by the mail address. Hm. Why is it > necessary to do it by mail address? I think it's nice to use the group parameters for this, in addition to having a list of additional regular expressions to use. (just for flexibility & completeness... take a look at this function I just whipped up: (defun gnus-find-subscribed-addresses () (delete-if nil (mapcar '(lambda (group) (or (gnus-group-find-parameter group 'to-address) (gnus-group-find-parameter group 'to-list))) (delete-if-not '(lambda (group) (gnus-group-find-parameter group 'subscribed)) (mapcar '(lambda (item) (car item)) gnus-newsrc-alist))))) I'm pretty sure that I shouldn't be just accessing gnus-newsrc-alist directly -- someone tell me what I should be doing. oh, and you'll need something like this: (setq gnus-parameters '(("^mail\\.lists\\." (subscribed . t)))) otherwise none of the groups will have the "subscribed" parameter set. ttyl, -- Josh Huber ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 18:23 ` Josh Huber @ 2001-10-19 20:31 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-19 20:53 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 22:28 ` Kai Großjohann 0 siblings, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-19 20:31 UTC (permalink / raw) Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> writes: > take a look at this function I just whipped up: > > (defun gnus-find-subscribed-addresses () > (delete-if > nil (mapcar '(lambda (group) > (or (gnus-group-find-parameter group 'to-address) > (gnus-group-find-parameter group 'to-list))) > (delete-if-not '(lambda (group) > (gnus-group-find-parameter > group 'subscribed)) > (mapcar '(lambda (item) (car item)) > gnus-newsrc-alist))))) > > I'm pretty sure that I shouldn't be just accessing gnus-newsrc-alist > directly -- someone tell me what I should be doing. > > oh, and you'll need something like this: > > (setq gnus-parameters > '(("^mail\\.lists\\." (subscribed . t)))) Way cool! gnus-group-prepare-flat skips the first element of gnus-newsrc-alist (which appears to always be a dummy group). Besides that, it looks like that is the best way to get at all the group names. Here is the same thing in a procedural style that I can actually understand. :-) (defun gnus-find-subscribed-addresses () (let ((newsrc (cdr gnus-newsrc-alist)) group address list) (while newsrc (setq group (car (car newsrc)) newsrc (cdr newsrc)) (if (and (gnus-group-find-parameter group 'subscribed) (setq address (or (gnus-group-find-parameter group 'to-address) (gnus-group-find-parameter group 'to-list)))) (setq list (cons address list)))) list)) -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 20:31 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-19 20:53 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 22:28 ` Kai Großjohann 1 sibling, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Josh Huber @ 2001-10-19 20:53 UTC (permalink / raw) Matt Armstrong <matt@lickey.com> writes: > Here is the same thing in a procedural style that I can actually > understand. :-) Hehe...hmm. I guess I never learned to use iteration much in lisp, since I learned scheme first...for a class. Everything was recursive. For some reason it just looks bad (I know it's probably not, though) when I see procedural lisp.... :P [snip new version] ttyl, -- Josh Huber ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 20:31 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-19 20:53 ` Josh Huber @ 2001-10-19 22:28 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-19 23:58 ` Matt Armstrong ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2001-10-19 22:28 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Matt Armstrong <matt@lickey.com> writes: > Here is the same thing in a procedural style that I can actually > understand. :-) I like Josh's version. Just look at code like this for a while, and you will see. It takes some training to see the beauty. Once you see the light, you'll never want to miss this kind of stuff. Sadly, delete-if and its ilk are in CL, and RMS wants us to write code which does not require CL. :-( kai (great fan of `map' and `grep' in Perl) -- GNU/Linux provides a nice `poweroff' command, but where is `poweron'? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 22:28 ` Kai Großjohann @ 2001-10-19 23:58 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-20 10:56 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-20 11:19 ` ShengHuo ZHU 2001-10-20 4:47 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-20 6:29 ` Josh Huber 2 siblings, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-19 23:58 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes: > Matt Armstrong <matt@lickey.com> writes: > >> Here is the same thing in a procedural style that I can actually >> understand. :-) > > I like Josh's version. Just look at code like this for a while, and > you will see. It takes some training to see the beauty. Once you see > the light, you'll never want to miss this kind of stuff. I agree that there is a certain elegance to the functional version. > Sadly, delete-if and its ilk are in CL, and RMS wants us to write code > which does not require CL. :-( message.el already does (require 'cl). It is all over the Gnus code base. -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 23:58 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-20 10:56 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-20 11:19 ` ShengHuo ZHU 1 sibling, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2001-10-20 10:56 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Matt Armstrong <matt@lickey.com> writes: > Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes: > >> Sadly, delete-if and its ilk are in CL, and RMS wants us to write code >> which does not require CL. :-( > > message.el already does (require 'cl). It is all over the Gnus code > base. Oh. kai -- Lisp is kinda like tpircstsoP ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 23:58 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-20 10:56 ` Kai Großjohann @ 2001-10-20 11:19 ` ShengHuo ZHU 1 sibling, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: ShengHuo ZHU @ 2001-10-20 11:19 UTC (permalink / raw) Matt Armstrong <matt@lickey.com> writes: > Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes: [...] >> Sadly, delete-if and its ilk are in CL, and RMS wants us to write code >> which does not require CL. :-( > > message.el already does (require 'cl). It is all over the Gnus code > base. Gnus requires CL during compiling time, not running time. For this reason, gnus-delete-if exists. ShengHuo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 22:28 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-19 23:58 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-20 4:47 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-20 10:57 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-20 6:29 ` Josh Huber 2 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-20 4:47 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) wrote: > RMS wants us to write code which does not require CL. :-( Why? paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-20 4:47 ` Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-20 10:57 ` Kai Großjohann 0 siblings, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2001-10-20 10:57 UTC (permalink / raw) prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes: > Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) wrote: >> RMS wants us to write code which does not require CL. :-( > > Why? I think he says something about overhead. My guess is that he wants to move to Scheme, so using too many CL features in Emacs Lisp is not good for that move. But this is just a guess. kai -- Lisp is kinda like tpircstsoP ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 22:28 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-19 23:58 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-20 4:47 ` Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-20 6:29 ` Josh Huber 2 siblings, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Josh Huber @ 2001-10-20 6:29 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes: > I like Josh's version. Just look at code like this for a while, and > you will see. It takes some training to see the beauty. Once you > see the light, you'll never want to miss this kind of stuff. :) You know, the amazing thing is, I never learned lisp -- but only scheme. Emacs' amazingly useful ways to lookup functions makes it pretty easy for me to learn: "okay, I want a function that deletes elements under certain conditions... C-h f delete <tab><tab> ah hah, delete-if(-not)? or M-x apropos" etc etc etc very nice! :) It really is a nice development environment... > Sadly, delete-if and its ilk are in CL, and RMS wants us to write > code which does not require CL. :-( why is that? > kai (great fan of `map' and `grep' in Perl) mmm, me too :) -- Josh Huber ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 17:51 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-19 18:23 ` Josh Huber @ 2001-10-19 19:26 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-19 21:08 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-19 21:20 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-20 9:51 ` Per Abrahamsen 2 siblings, 2 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-19 19:26 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes: > Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: > >> 3. A single variable: >> >> (defcustom message-subscribed-lists nil >> "A list of regexps matching mailing list you are subscribed to. > > What's so bad about using group parameters for this? 1) to-address and to-list do not necessarily imply that you're subscribed to those addresses (see Per's mail). 2) Not every list you're subscribed to has its own group (see one of my early posts in this thread). 3) Group parameters are supposed to apply to the current group. The list of groups you're subscribed to is a global thing and does not change when you change groups. It is perfectly okay to optionally seed the list of subscribed e-mail addresses from group parameters (to-address), but it won't be exhaustive or necessarily correct. That's why I think there should be a group parameter "subscribed" that, when present, indicates that to-address is a list you're subscribed to. Code can go through the parameters for all the groups doing "use to-address if subscribed." > Oh, one difference would be that my suggestion goes by the group > name, but your suggestion goes by the mail address. Hm. Why is it > necessary to do it by mail address? It should become clear upon reading the spec for Mail-Followup-To: http://cr.yp.to/proto/replyto.html -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 19:26 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-19 21:08 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-19 21:20 ` Kai Großjohann 1 sibling, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2001-10-19 21:08 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Matt Armstrong <matt@lickey.com> writes: > Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes: > >> Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: >> >>> 3. A single variable: >>> >>> (defcustom message-subscribed-lists nil >>> "A list of regexps matching mailing list you are subscribed to. >> >> What's so bad about using group parameters for this? > > 1) to-address and to-list do not necessarily imply that you're > subscribed to those addresses (see Per's mail). I'm sorry for not making it clear that I meant a _new_ group parameter. I thought that the only thing we need is to say `don't include me in the list of addresses in MFT'. All the rest follows, right? (If the original message has MFT, then we don't want to frob it, except maybe delete ourselves from it. I think.) But I shall read the spec to make sure I'm not misunderstanding anything. > 2) Not every list you're subscribed to has its own group (see one of > my early posts in this thread). This is a valid point. Hm. kai -- GNU/Linux provides a nice `poweroff' command, but where is `poweron'? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 19:26 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-19 21:08 ` Kai Großjohann @ 2001-10-19 21:20 ` Kai Großjohann 1 sibling, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2001-10-19 21:20 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Matt Armstrong <matt@lickey.com> writes: > Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes: > >> Oh, one difference would be that my suggestion goes by the group >> name, but your suggestion goes by the mail address. Hm. Why is it >> necessary to do it by mail address? > > It should become clear upon reading the spec for Mail-Followup-To: > > http://cr.yp.to/proto/replyto.html Okay, I have now read that spec. It seems the intention is mainly to prevent authors to get two copies. So I think a useful implementation makes this intention easy, and the rest possible. Now let's talk about how to prevent the author from getting two copies. This can be done by either taking the MFT that's present in the original message, or by taking the default from To/Cc/Reply-to. And then we just delete all addresses matching gnus-ignored-from-addresses from the thusly generated MFT. Hm. Of course, this potentially suffers from gnus-ignored-from-addresses being the wrong variable. Hm. Ah, _now_ I see the point: all you need is a list of addresses that reaches you, and then you can do the MFT generation from that. As I described above. Okay, I think I'm convinced now. I'm also convinced that pre-initialization of this list can be done from all the to-list/to-addresses parameters of all groups. Sorry to be such a bone-head. kai -- GNU/Linux provides a nice `poweroff' command, but where is `poweron'? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 17:51 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-19 18:23 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 19:26 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-20 9:51 ` Per Abrahamsen 2001-10-20 10:59 ` Kai Großjohann 2 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 2001-10-20 9:51 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes: > What's so bad about using group parameters for this? When I have been talking about group parameters, I have always been imagining sending the mail from inside some folder (or with C-u a from the *Groups* buffer), and looking at the group parameters for the current group. In that case it is not robust, since you may send messages from outside folders, or from other folders than the one associated with the list. However, if we are talking about code that iterate through all the groups and note the (to-list / to-address), and compare that list with the to/cc in order to decide whether to generate mft header, that is an entirely different and much cooler case. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-20 9:51 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 2001-10-20 10:59 ` Kai Großjohann 0 siblings, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2001-10-20 10:59 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: > Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes: > >> What's so bad about using group parameters for this? > > When I have been talking about group parameters, I have always been > imagining sending the mail from inside some folder (or with C-u a from > the *Groups* buffer), and looking at the group parameters for the > current group. In that case it is not robust, since you may send > messages from outside folders, or from other folders than the one > associated with the list. Well, after some thinking I now see why a single list of all addresses which send mail to me is better than doing it per-group. > However, if we are talking about code that iterate through all the > groups and note the (to-list / to-address), and compare that list with > the to/cc in order to decide whether to generate mft header, that is > an entirely different and much cooler case. :-) Yes, the list of addresses could be initialized/augmented from the group parameters on startup. kai -- Lisp is kinda like tpircstsoP ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-19 13:46 ` Josh Huber ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2001-10-19 15:42 ` Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-19 16:31 ` Kai Großjohann 3 siblings, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2001-10-19 16:31 UTC (permalink / raw) Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> writes: > So, what would be the best way to use this flag? A meta header like > > X-Gnus-Use-MFT: true > > that is inserted into the message buffer? There is already the X-Draft-From header which can be used to locate the group parameter, so I think the extra header is not necessary. kai -- GNU/Linux provides a nice `poweroff' command, but where is `poweron'? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-18 16:08 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-18 16:19 ` Kai Großjohann @ 2001-10-18 16:59 ` Paul Jarc 1 sibling, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-18 16:59 UTC (permalink / raw) Matt Armstrong <matt@lickey.com> wrote: > I was thinking of a global variable holding all subscribed lists -- > just a list of addresses: > > (setq message-subscribed-addresses '("ding" "postfix-users")) Those should definitely be complete addresses (or regexps), not just the local parts. Aside from that, this could be a useful: if any of the addressees matches one of these, then we generate MFT based on all of To+Cc. I'd call the variable message-mft-addresses or message-mft-regexps, though. > There could even be utility functions that read ~/.lists (for Qmail > users) and that goes through all the Gnus group parameters looking for > to-address parameters, as well as extracting stuff from > gnus-parameter-to-address-alist. I'm not sure how useful the ~/.lists function would be - qmail users already get MFT from qmail-inject with ~/.lists. But yes, it should definitely be possible to maintain message-mft-regexps automatically. > This could be controlled by a list of functions that produce > additional addresses: > > (setq message-subscribed-addresses-functions > '(message-subscribed-addresses-qmail > gnus-get-subscribed-addresses)) > > With this list available, all Mail-Followup-To: generation can be done > right before the message is sent. Ok, so when sending a message, we do something like this: if there is an existing MFT: if it's empty: remove it ;; this lets the user turn off MFT for a single message ;; when it would otherwise be added automatically else: leave it as-is else: (let ((message-mft-regexps message-mft-regexps)) (when message-mft-addresses-functions call each function, adding its returned regexps to m-m-r ) check each address in To+Cc against each pattern in m-m-r if any match is found, put all To+Cc addresses in a new MFT ) Sound good? People who don't want to call all those functions for evey message can construct m-m-r once and leave m-m-a-f as nil. paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-18 5:43 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-18 16:08 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-18 16:36 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-18 17:11 ` Paul Jarc 1 sibling, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Josh Huber @ 2001-10-18 16:36 UTC (permalink / raw) prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes: > I'm thinking something in gnus-msg.el, during initialization of a > new message buffer, can detect when there is a to-list or to-address > parameter for the current group; if so, it'll add a header field > like "X-Gnus-Generate-MFT: yes" (by default; it could be disabled by > setting some variable). Then when we send the message, if that > field is present, we remove it, and if there is also no existing > MFT, then we add one based on To+Cc. I was just thinking about this as well. It would be nice to have a list of regexs that specify which groups mft header generation should be turned on for: (setq gnus-mail-followup-to-matches '(("^mail.lists" 'subscribe) (".*" 'list))) ...just for example. if a regex matches, the rule is used. the names here are just from mutt (subscribe, and lists are the two commands. If a list is marked as "subscribe" you are not added to the Mail-Followup-To header, if it's marked as "list" you are added to the header) I was just thinking about starting work on this... it seems other people want this feature as well? :) -- Josh Huber ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-18 16:36 ` Josh Huber @ 2001-10-18 17:11 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-18 17:56 ` Josh Huber 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-18 17:11 UTC (permalink / raw) Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> wrote: > (setq gnus-mail-followup-to-matches > '(("^mail.lists" 'subscribe) > (".*" 'list))) > > ...just for example. if a regex matches, the rule is used. > > the names here are just from mutt (subscribe, and lists are the two > commands. If a list is marked as "subscribe" you are not added to the > Mail-Followup-To header, if it's marked as "list" you are added to the > header) MFT consisting of To+Cc+(From/Reply-To/Mail-Reply-To) is equivalent to no MFT at all; we don't need to generate MFT for such a case. As far as determining whether to include the sender (equivalently, whether to generate MFT), I think I like Matt's idea better. Certain addressees are better determinants than certain groups. > it seems other people want this feature as well? :) Quite. I'm tired of having to maintain my list-address file for qmail-inject separately from my to-list parameters. paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-18 17:11 ` Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-18 17:56 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-18 18:52 ` Matt Armstrong ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Josh Huber @ 2001-10-18 17:56 UTC (permalink / raw) prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes: > As far as determining whether to include the sender (equivalently, > whether to generate MFT), I think I like Matt's idea better. > Certain addressees are better determinants than certain groups. True. I agree. I was trying to think of a way to not have to specify duplicate address to the ones I've already listed in the group configuration. How about (setq gnus-mft-use-group-address "^mail.lists") In addition to specifying the specific address? That way, when Gnus went through and looked at the message-subscribed-addresses variable we could do something like... (let message-subscribed-addresses (append message-subscribed-addresses (mapcar '(lambda (group) (gnus-fetch-group-address group)) (gnus-group-find-groups gnus-mft-use-group-address)))) using the theoretical gnus-fetch-group-address and gnus-group-find-groups. after a quick check there is gnus-group-apropos, but I couldn't find anyting that returned a *list* of groups matched, rather than showing a list in a buffer...perhaps I just missed it. gnud-fetch-group-address should get either the to-address or the to-list (whichever comes first?) > Quite. I'm tired of having to maintain my list-address file for > qmail-inject separately from my to-list parameters. Yes, and I'm tired of not having this feature after switching from mutt a while back. It hasn't been that annoying, but MFT is more powerful/configuable than MCT, so I'd really like to have it in Gnus! ttyl, -- Josh Huber ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-18 17:56 ` Josh Huber @ 2001-10-18 18:52 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-18 19:11 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-18 19:27 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-19 9:05 ` Kai Großjohann 2 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-18 18:52 UTC (permalink / raw) Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> writes: > prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes: > >> As far as determining whether to include the sender (equivalently, >> whether to generate MFT), I think I like Matt's idea better. >> Certain addressees are better determinants than certain groups. > > True. I agree. > > I was trying to think of a way to not have to specify duplicate > address to the ones I've already listed in the group configuration. > > How about > > (setq gnus-mft-use-group-address > "^mail.lists") > > In addition to specifying the specific address? That way, when Gnus > went through and looked at the message-subscribed-addresses variable > we could do something like... > > (let message-subscribed-addresses > (append message-subscribed-addresses > (mapcar '(lambda (group) (gnus-fetch-group-address > group)) > (gnus-group-find-groups > gnus-mft-use-group-address)))) > > using the theoretical gnus-fetch-group-address and > gnus-group-find-groups. Yes, your mapcar call is to how I was thinking gnus-get-subscribed-addresses would be implemented in my earlier mail. Implementing gnus-group-find-groups and gnus-fetch-group-address may be the hardest part. I am not sure gnus-mft-use-group-address has much point in being a regexp. I'd say it should at least traverse all groups when set to 't. I still think there should be a list of functions (a hook) that the user can set up to return additional subscribed addresses. I maintain a list outside of Gnus for the purpose of generating procmail filtering rules. Getting to-address and to-list addresses from group parameters is just a special case of this. But it sounds like we all have similar ideas. My elisp is very weak, so I would not mind if your or anybody else took the first stab at implementation. :-) -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-18 18:52 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-18 19:11 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-18 19:29 ` Matt Armstrong 0 siblings, 1 reply; 147+ messages in thread From: Josh Huber @ 2001-10-18 19:11 UTC (permalink / raw) Matt Armstrong <matt@lickey.com> writes: > Yes, your mapcar call is to how I was thinking > gnus-get-subscribed-addresses would be implemented in my earlier > mail. Implementing gnus-group-find-groups and > gnus-fetch-group-address may be the hardest part. Ok, I'll try and figure out what the best way to do this is... > I am not sure gnus-mft-use-group-address has much point in being a > regexp. I'd say it should at least traverse all groups when set to > 't. Agreed. I think we can assume that if a to-list or to-address value is set for a group, it's a mailing list address. > I still think there should be a list of functions (a hook) that the > user can set up to return additional subscribed addresses. I > maintain a list outside of Gnus for the purpose of generating > procmail filtering rules. Getting to-address and to-list addresses > from group parameters is just a special case of this. Also agreed. > But it sounds like we all have similar ideas. My elisp is very > weak, so I would not mind if your or anybody else took the first > stab at implementation. :-) Ok, I'll try. Someone else may get something done first though :) ttyl, -- Josh Huber ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-18 19:11 ` Josh Huber @ 2001-10-18 19:29 ` Matt Armstrong 0 siblings, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-18 19:29 UTC (permalink / raw) Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> writes: >> But it sounds like we all have similar ideas. My elisp is very >> weak, so I would not mind if your or anybody else took the first >> stab at implementation. :-) > > Ok, I'll try. Someone else may get something done first though :) Let's agree that if you, Paul or myself ever implements something useful on this front that we notify the list to avoid duplicate efforts. :-) -- matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-18 17:56 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-18 18:52 ` Matt Armstrong @ 2001-10-18 19:27 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-19 9:05 ` Kai Großjohann 2 siblings, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-18 19:27 UTC (permalink / raw) Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> wrote: > I was trying to think of a way to not have to specify duplicate > address to the ones I've already listed in the group configuration. Is there anything wrong with the pseudocode I posted earlier? That could be used to gather to-list and to-addresses automatically when sending a message. (Or not, if one prefers.) > (let message-subscribed-addresses > (append message-subscribed-addresses > (mapcar '(lambda (group) (gnus-fetch-group-address > group)) > (gnus-group-find-groups > gnus-mft-use-group-address)))) So we would use the to-list and to-address parameters from only some groups, instead of all? I don't see the use for that. Why would we want to exclude any? paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
* Re: Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers 2001-10-18 17:56 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-18 18:52 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-18 19:27 ` Paul Jarc @ 2001-10-19 9:05 ` Kai Großjohann 2 siblings, 0 replies; 147+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2001-10-19 9:05 UTC (permalink / raw) Josh Huber <huber@alum.wpi.edu> writes: > How about > > (setq gnus-mft-use-group-address > "^mail.lists") > > In addition to specifying the specific address? If you want to specify a parameter for some groups, please use the existing group parameters mechanism. There is the variable gnus-parameters which allows people to specify such a parameter by regexp, so there is no functionality lost. kai -- GNU/Linux provides a nice `poweroff' command, but where is `poweron'? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 147+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2001-11-07 19:59 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 147+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2001-10-18 5:11 Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers Matt Armstrong 2001-10-18 5:43 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-18 16:08 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-18 16:19 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-18 16:41 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-18 18:17 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-18 23:19 ` Maciej Matysiak 2001-10-19 9:03 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-11-01 21:54 ` Maciej Matysiak 2001-11-01 22:10 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-02 1:03 ` Samuel Padgett 2001-11-07 13:39 ` Maciej Matysiak 2001-11-07 13:30 ` Maciej Matysiak 2001-11-07 14:26 ` Per Abrahamsen 2001-11-07 14:31 ` Didier Verna 2001-11-07 14:40 ` Per Abrahamsen 2001-11-07 14:44 ` Josh Huber 2001-11-07 15:36 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-11-07 16:08 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-07 17:03 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-11-07 19:59 ` Josh Huber 2001-11-02 8:31 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-11-02 16:09 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-02 16:52 ` OT: make bbdb shut up about different email addresses? Josh Huber 2001-11-02 17:37 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-02 17:48 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-02 19:44 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-02 19:58 ` Paul Jarc 2001-11-02 18:35 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-02 22:27 ` Jack Twilley 2001-11-02 23:54 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-03 5:16 ` thoughts on spam Bill White 2001-11-03 6:33 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-03 7:29 ` SPAM? What SPAM? (was: thoughts on spam) Robin S. Socha 2001-11-03 18:13 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-03 18:39 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-03 19:04 ` Karl Kleinpaste 2001-11-03 19:12 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-03 19:21 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-03 22:52 ` Karl Kleinpaste 2001-11-03 14:48 ` thoughts on spam Bill White 2001-11-03 15:12 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-03 18:24 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-04 6:01 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-04 7:00 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-04 8:40 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-05 20:04 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-05 20:38 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-05 23:06 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-06 1:52 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-06 2:07 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-06 2:43 ` Paul Jarc 2001-11-06 3:05 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-06 3:26 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-05 22:01 ` Chris Shenton 2001-11-05 22:54 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-03 18:26 ` Robin S. Socha 2001-11-03 18:42 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-03 18:56 ` Fabien Penso 2001-11-03 19:24 ` Robin S. Socha 2001-11-04 5:54 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-04 7:07 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-04 9:04 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-04 17:57 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-04 20:46 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-05 3:49 ` Paul Jarc 2001-11-05 4:34 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-05 5:27 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-05 15:59 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-05 16:57 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-05 17:45 ` [OT] " Fabien Penso 2001-11-05 19:25 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-05 19:33 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-05 19:58 ` Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-05 20:01 ` Karl Kleinpaste 2001-11-05 20:35 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-06 6:51 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-06 16:55 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-11-06 18:51 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-06 19:19 ` Lost Mail (was thoughts on spam) Stainless Steel Rat 2001-11-06 20:02 ` thoughts on spam Matt Armstrong 2001-11-06 20:49 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-06 19:52 ` Steinar Bang 2001-11-04 17:33 ` François Pinard 2001-11-04 17:23 ` François Pinard 2001-11-03 20:32 ` Russ Allbery 2001-11-03 18:15 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-04 4:08 ` Bill White 2001-11-04 4:04 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-04 4:07 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-04 7:11 ` Bill White 2001-11-04 7:10 ` Jason R. Mastaler 2001-11-04 13:47 ` Harry Putnam 2001-11-04 17:45 ` bbdb arcana Bill White 2001-11-07 13:43 ` Generating Mail-Followup-To: headers Maciej Matysiak 2001-10-19 4:48 ` Per Abrahamsen 2001-10-19 13:46 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 14:08 ` Per Abrahamsen 2001-10-19 15:49 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-19 15:29 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-19 16:19 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-19 19:29 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-19 19:44 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 20:59 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-19 15:42 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-19 16:16 ` Per Abrahamsen 2001-10-19 16:25 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-19 17:01 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 17:04 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 19:46 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-19 19:54 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-19 20:05 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 20:50 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-19 21:12 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-20 6:52 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-20 9:41 ` Per Abrahamsen 2001-10-21 0:58 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-19 20:16 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-19 21:12 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 21:40 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-20 6:25 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 17:51 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-19 18:23 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 20:31 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-19 20:53 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 22:28 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-19 23:58 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-20 10:56 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-20 11:19 ` ShengHuo ZHU 2001-10-20 4:47 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-20 10:57 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-20 6:29 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-19 19:26 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-19 21:08 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-19 21:20 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-20 9:51 ` Per Abrahamsen 2001-10-20 10:59 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-19 16:31 ` Kai Großjohann 2001-10-18 16:59 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-18 16:36 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-18 17:11 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-18 17:56 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-18 18:52 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-18 19:11 ` Josh Huber 2001-10-18 19:29 ` Matt Armstrong 2001-10-18 19:27 ` Paul Jarc 2001-10-19 9:05 ` Kai Großjohann
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