[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Heinz Lycklama]

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VP/ix ran on both System III and UNIX System V/386 Release 3.2.
I do still have a copy of the VP/ix Environment documentation
and the diskettes for the software. I have the "Introduction to the
VP/ix Environment" for further reference for interested folks.

Also found some information about VP/ix on these web pages:
     1. 
https://virtuallyfun.com/2020/11/29/fun-with-vp-ix-under-interactive-unix-system-v-386-3-0-and-86box/
     2. 
https://techmonitor.ai/technology/interactive_systems_is_adding_to_vpix_with_a_little_help_from_its_friends
     3. 
https://manualzz.com/doc/7267897/interactive-unix-system-v-386-r3.2-v4.1---release

It's been a long time since I looked at this.

Heinz

On 3/13/2024 8:53 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
> Thanks.  Fair enough.  You mentioned PC/IX as /ISC's System III/
>
> I'm not sure I ever ran ISC's System III port—only the V.3 port - 
> which was the basis for their ATT, Intel, and IBM work and later sold 
> directly. I'm fairly sure ISCalso called that port PC/IX, but they 
> might have added something to say with 386 in the name—I've forgotten. 
> [Heinz probably can clarify here]. Anyway, this is likely the source 
> of my thinking. FWIW: The copy of PC/IX for the 386 (which I still 
> have on a system I have not booted in ages) definitely has VPIX.
> ᐧ
>
> On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 11:28 AM Marc Rochkind <mrochkind@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>
>     @Clem Cole <mailto:clemc@ccc.com>,
>
>     I don't remember what it was. But, the XT had an 8088, so
>     certainly no 386 technology was involved.
>
>     Marc
>
>     On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 8:38 AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>
>         @Marc
>
>         On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 1:18 PM Marc Rochkind
>         <mrochkind@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>             At a trade show, I bought a utility that allowed me to run
>             PC-DOS under PC/IX. I'm sure it wasn't a virtual machine.
>             Rather, it just swapped back and forth. (Guessing a bit
>             there.)
>
>         Hmm ... you sure it was not either VPIX or DOS/Merge -- ISC
>         built VPIX in cooperation with the Phoenix Tech folks for
>         PC/IX. I always bought a copy with it, but it may have been an
>         option.   LCC did DOS/Merge originally as part of the AIX work
>         for IBM and would become a core part of OS/2 Warp IIRC. Both
>         Merge and VPIX had some rough edges but certainly worked fine
>         for DOS 3.3 programs. The issue tended to be Win and DOS
>         graphics-based programs/games that played fast and loose,
>         bypassing the DOS OS interface and accessing the HW directly. 
>         For instance, I never got the flight simulator (Air War over
>         Germany) for Dad's WWII plane (P-47 Thunderbolt) to run under
>         either (i.e., only under DOS directly on the HW. FWIW: In that
>         mode, Dad said the simulator flew a lot like how he remembered
>         it).
>
>         Both Merge and VPIX used the 386 VM support and a bunch of
>         work in the core OS.   Heinz would have to fill us in here.
>         The version of the 386 port ISC delivered to AT&T and Intel
>         only had the kernel changes to allow the VM support for VPIX
>         to be linked in, but it was not there.   IICR (and I'm not
>         sure I am) is that Merge could run on PC/IX also, but you had
>         to replace a couple of kernel modules.  It certainly would
>         work on the AT&T and Intel versions.
>         ᐧ
>
>
>
>     -- 
>     /My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com/
>

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Steve Simon]

The zorland c compiler from zortech, x86 pc compiler from a small uk company.

i used it to write my final year project at college in 1988. sadly i couldn’t use the interdata running v7 as i was doing image processing and needed to access an ISA framestore card.

i built a motion compensated video standards converter, and thanks to the 80287 i managed something like 6 hours per frame.

i think zortech claimed they wrote one of the first c++ compilers (rather than using c++).

 -Steve

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Paul Ruizendaal]

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 4:14 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78 at gmail.com> wrote:

> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.
> Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?

An unusual one would be the “revenue bomb” compiler that Charles Simonyi and Richard Brodie did at Microsoft in 1981.

This compiler was intended to provided a uniform environment for the menagerie of 8 and 16-bit computers of the era. It compiled to a byte code which executed through a small interpreter. This by itself was hardly new of course, but it had some unique features. It generated code in overlays, so that it could run a code base larger than 64KB (but it defined only one data segment). It also defined a small set of “system” commands, that allowed for uniform I/O. I still have the implementation spec for that interpreter somewhere.

This compiler was used for the first versions of Multiplan and Word, and my understanding is that the byte code engine was later re-used in Visual Basic. I think the compiler also had a Xenix port, maybe it even was Xenix native (and at this time, Xenix would still essentially have been V7).

I am not sure to what extent this compiler was independent of the Bell compilers. It could well be that it was based on PCC, Microsoft was a Unix licensee after all and at the time busy doing ports. On the other hand, Charles Simonyi would certainly have been capable of creating his own from scratch. I do know that this compiler preceded Lattice C, the latter of which was distributed by Microsoft as Microsoft C 1.0.

Maybe others know more about this Simonyi/Brodie compiler?

Paul

Notes:
http://www.memecentral.com/mylife.htm
https://web.archive.org/web/20080905231519/http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/software/appdev/story/0%2C10801%2C76413%2C00.html
http://seefigure1.com/images/xenix/xenix-timeline.jpg

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Marc Rochkind]

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Since it came up in this thread, here's my review of Coherent in BYTE
Magazine (1985):

https://www.mrochkind.com/mrochkind/docs/Byte-Pick-Coherent-Theos.pdf

Marc

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 11:13 AM Paul Ruizendaal <pnr@planet.nl> wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 4:14 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
> > compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at
> Bell.
> > Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
> > Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
>
> An unusual one would be the “revenue bomb” compiler that Charles Simonyi
> and Richard Brodie did at Microsoft in 1981.
>
> This compiler was intended to provided a uniform environment for the
> menagerie of 8 and 16-bit computers of the era. It compiled to a byte code
> which executed through a small interpreter. This by itself was hardly new
> of course, but it had some unique features. It generated code in overlays,
> so that it could run a code base larger than 64KB (but it defined only one
> data segment). It also defined a small set of “system” commands, that
> allowed for uniform I/O. I still have the implementation spec for that
> interpreter somewhere.
>
> This compiler was used for the first versions of Multiplan and Word, and
> my understanding is that the byte code engine was later re-used in Visual
> Basic. I think the compiler also had a Xenix port, maybe it even was Xenix
> native (and at this time, Xenix would still essentially have been V7).
>
> I am not sure to what extent this compiler was independent of the Bell
> compilers. It could well be that it was based on PCC, Microsoft was a Unix
> licensee after all and at the time busy doing ports. On the other hand,
> Charles Simonyi would certainly have been capable of creating his own from
> scratch. I do know that this compiler preceded Lattice C, the latter of
> which was distributed by Microsoft as Microsoft C 1.0.
>
> Maybe others know more about this Simonyi/Brodie compiler?
>
> Paul
>
> Notes:
> http://www.memecentral.com/mylife.htm
>
> https://web.archive.org/web/20080905231519/http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/software/appdev/story/0%2C10801%2C76413%2C00.html
> http://seefigure1.com/images/xenix/xenix-timeline.jpg



-- 
*My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com <mrochkind@gmail.com>*

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Peter Yardley]

I used the DEC VMS C compiler extensively while I was at NSWIT. I ported a lot of Berkley (I think) C code to VMS. Some of their VLSI design suite, KIC etc. There weren’t a lot of changes to make, the compiler and library was pretty K&R from what I remember. The usual small header issues applied. VMS IO is a bit different from UNIX IO  but they had a mode (stream I think) that meant minimal changes to UNIX code.

http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/vax/lang/c/AI-L370C-TE_Guide_to_VAX_C_V2.3_Mar1987.pdf

It did help that the code I was working with was pretty damn good. I learn C porting KIC to VMS.

> On 12 Mar 2024, at 7:44 AM, Marc Rochkind <mrochkind@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Since it came up in this thread, here's my review of Coherent in BYTE Magazine (1985):
> 
> https://www.mrochkind.com/mrochkind/docs/Byte-Pick-Coherent-Theos.pdf
> 
> Marc
> 
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 11:13 AM Paul Ruizendaal <pnr@planet.nl> wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 4:14 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
> > compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.
> > Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
> > Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
> 
> An unusual one would be the “revenue bomb” compiler that Charles Simonyi and Richard Brodie did at Microsoft in 1981.
> 
> This compiler was intended to provided a uniform environment for the menagerie of 8 and 16-bit computers of the era. It compiled to a byte code which executed through a small interpreter. This by itself was hardly new of course, but it had some unique features. It generated code in overlays, so that it could run a code base larger than 64KB (but it defined only one data segment). It also defined a small set of “system” commands, that allowed for uniform I/O. I still have the implementation spec for that interpreter somewhere.
> 
> This compiler was used for the first versions of Multiplan and Word, and my understanding is that the byte code engine was later re-used in Visual Basic. I think the compiler also had a Xenix port, maybe it even was Xenix native (and at this time, Xenix would still essentially have been V7).
> 
> I am not sure to what extent this compiler was independent of the Bell compilers. It could well be that it was based on PCC, Microsoft was a Unix licensee after all and at the time busy doing ports. On the other hand, Charles Simonyi would certainly have been capable of creating his own from scratch. I do know that this compiler preceded Lattice C, the latter of which was distributed by Microsoft as Microsoft C 1.0.
> 
> Maybe others know more about this Simonyi/Brodie compiler?
> 
> Paul
> 
> Notes:
> http://www.memecentral.com/mylife.htm
> https://web.archive.org/web/20080905231519/http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/software/appdev/story/0%2C10801%2C76413%2C00.html
> http://seefigure1.com/images/xenix/xenix-timeline.jpg
> 
> 
> -- 
> My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com

Peter Yardley
peter.martin.yardley@gmail.com

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[ron minnich]

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One of the neatest compilers I worked with was Eric Biederman's romcc.

"romcc is a C compiler which produces binaries which do not rely on RAM, but
instead only use CPU registers."

We used romcc for 15 years or so. It was critical to getting DRAM and
Hypertransport topology working on the Opteron. Remember: at
power-on/reset, RAM is dead, dead, dead, and getting it going on newer
systems is (literally) billions of instructions. So, no ram. The only "ram"
romcc had were the general purpose registers. Later, eric added support for
the SIMD registers, and "memory" grew a few hundred bytes. No memory, no
stack: 100% inlining. romcc knew how to use puddle arithmetic and all the
other tricks. It was amazing.

It is a full ANSI C compiler (as of 2006 ANSI C) in 25KLOC code, in one
file: https://github.com/wt/coreboot/blob/master/util/romcc/romcc.c

The story of its creation, as told to me by the Linux NetworX CTO ca 2004:
Eric worked at Linux NetworX at the time, and they were shipping
LinuxBIOS-based systems. Everyone working with Opteron was suffering with
assembly. Eric vanished for 30 days, and on the 31st day returned from the
mountain (or his apartment I guess) with romcc, and It Was Good. Really
good. The code we wrote for Opteron Hypertransport was far better than
AMDs; they even admitted it to us later.  We could even run with empty
Socket 0; they could not.

Last I checked, it still builds and 100 or so regression tests work just
fine.



On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 3:28 PM Peter Yardley <
peter.martin.yardley@gmail.com> wrote:

> I used the DEC VMS C compiler extensively while I was at NSWIT. I ported a
> lot of Berkley (I think) C code to VMS. Some of their VLSI design suite,
> KIC etc. There weren’t a lot of changes to make, the compiler and library
> was pretty K&R from what I remember. The usual small header issues applied.
> VMS IO is a bit different from UNIX IO  but they had a mode (stream I
> think) that meant minimal changes to UNIX code.
>
>
> http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/vax/lang/c/AI-L370C-TE_Guide_to_VAX_C_V2.3_Mar1987.pdf
>
> It did help that the code I was working with was pretty damn good. I learn
> C porting KIC to VMS.
>
> > On 12 Mar 2024, at 7:44 AM, Marc Rochkind <mrochkind@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Since it came up in this thread, here's my review of Coherent in BYTE
> Magazine (1985):
> >
> > https://www.mrochkind.com/mrochkind/docs/Byte-Pick-Coherent-Theos.pdf
> >
> > Marc
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 11:13 AM Paul Ruizendaal <pnr@planet.nl> wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 4:14 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
> > > compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at
> Bell.
> > > Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
> > > Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
> >
> > An unusual one would be the “revenue bomb” compiler that Charles Simonyi
> and Richard Brodie did at Microsoft in 1981.
> >
> > This compiler was intended to provided a uniform environment for the
> menagerie of 8 and 16-bit computers of the era. It compiled to a byte code
> which executed through a small interpreter. This by itself was hardly new
> of course, but it had some unique features. It generated code in overlays,
> so that it could run a code base larger than 64KB (but it defined only one
> data segment). It also defined a small set of “system” commands, that
> allowed for uniform I/O. I still have the implementation spec for that
> interpreter somewhere.
> >
> > This compiler was used for the first versions of Multiplan and Word, and
> my understanding is that the byte code engine was later re-used in Visual
> Basic. I think the compiler also had a Xenix port, maybe it even was Xenix
> native (and at this time, Xenix would still essentially have been V7).
> >
> > I am not sure to what extent this compiler was independent of the Bell
> compilers. It could well be that it was based on PCC, Microsoft was a Unix
> licensee after all and at the time busy doing ports. On the other hand,
> Charles Simonyi would certainly have been capable of creating his own from
> scratch. I do know that this compiler preceded Lattice C, the latter of
> which was distributed by Microsoft as Microsoft C 1.0.
> >
> > Maybe others know more about this Simonyi/Brodie compiler?
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > Notes:
> > http://www.memecentral.com/mylife.htm
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20080905231519/http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/software/appdev/story/0%2C10801%2C76413%2C00.html
> > http://seefigure1.com/images/xenix/xenix-timeline.jpg
> >
> >
> > --
> > My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com
>
> Peter Yardley
> peter.martin.yardley@gmail.com
>
>

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Larry Stewart]

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Paul Winalski]

On 3/11/24, Peter Yardley <peter.martin.yardley@gmail.com> wrote:
> I used the DEC VMS C compiler extensively while I was at NSWIT. I ported a
> lot of Berkley (I think) C code to VMS. Some of their VLSI design suite, KIC
> etc. There weren’t a lot of changes to make, the compiler and library was
> pretty K&R from what I remember. The usual small header issues applied

The developers of the original DEC VMS C compiler took great pains to
be K&R-friendly by default.  There was a strict ANSI C option
available.

There later was a later, C89 compiler produced by Dave Cutler's
DECwest engineering team in Seattle.  I think it ran on Unix as well
as VMS.  It enforced the C89 standard very strictly--no option for
relaxations or extensions and no K&R compatibility.  One customer
described it as the Rush Limbaugh of C compilers--extremely
conservative and you can't argue with it.

> VMS IO is a bit different from UNIX IO

Understatement of the century.  :-)

>  but they had a mode (stream I think)
> that meant minimal changes to UNIX code.

VMS's device-independent I/O layer is called Record Management
Services (RMS) and as its name implies it is record-oriented.  They
did eventually add a stream mode to RMS, but that didn't happen until
well into the 1990s.  When DEC C for VMS first came out (ca. 1980)
there was no stream mode in RMS.  The C RTL had to implement stream
I/O as a layer on top of RMS.  It's fairly easy to build
record-oriented I/O on top of stream I/O but it's very difficult to do
it the other way around.  At first release the VMS C RTL's I/O had a
lot of buggy edge conditions.  It took them several releases to get
the I/O working properly.

Circa 1985 there was a port of the Bourne shell to VAX/VMS.  It of
course needed pipes, and I wrote a pipe pseudo-device driver for VMS.
It supported both stream and record read and write operations.

-Paul W.

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Henry Bent]

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On Tue, 12 Mar 2024 at 08:02, Marc Rochkind <mrochkind@gmail.com> wrote:

> Since it came up in this thread, here's my review of Coherent in BYTE
> Magazine (1985):
>
> https://www.mrochkind.com/mrochkind/docs/Byte-Pick-Coherent-Theos.pdf
>

This is an impressively thorough review from an end-user perspective, and I
am sorry that it was buried so far back in that issue of Byte!  Though I
suppose this was from the era when Byte was jam-packed with informative
reviews.  Did you continue to use Coherent, or do you have any thoughts on
the article in hindsight?

-Henry

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Marc Rochkind]

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On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 8:55 AM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote:

> ...Did you continue to use Coherent, or do you have any thoughts on the
> article in hindsight?
>
> -Henry
>

I definitely didn't continue to use Coherent. As I recall, I installed each
of the 3 systems successively on my XT (Pick, Coherent, and THEOS). That
was about the time I got PC/IX from Interactive Systems (true System III),
and that's what I went with.

At a trade show, I bought a utility that allowed me to run PC-DOS under
PC/IX. I'm sure it wasn't a virtual machine. Rather, it just swapped back
and forth. (Guessing a bit there.)

What Coherent and some other very early UNIX clones missed was the idea of
open source, which came along later. This is what allowed Linux to thrive
when others went by the wayside. But, nobody knew how to make any money
from open source (and maybe still don't), so that would have been a problem
back then.

As for my thoughts on the article: Reading it recently, it seems OK. I have
no idea how one ought to go about reviewing an operating system. Certainly
loading one up and playing with it for a couple of hours doesn't tell much.
Using one exclusively for a long time doesn't tell one anything, either. I
think reviews work better for movies, books, hotels, cameras, and things
like that.

Marc

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Clem Cole]

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@Marc

On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 1:18 PM Marc Rochkind <mrochkind@gmail.com> wrote:

> At a trade show, I bought a utility that allowed me to run PC-DOS under
> PC/IX. I'm sure it wasn't a virtual machine. Rather, it just swapped back
> and forth. (Guessing a bit there.)
>
Hmm ... you sure it was not either VPIX or DOS/Merge -- ISC built VPIX in
cooperation with the Phoenix Tech folks for PC/IX. I always bought a copy
with it, but it may have been an option.   LCC did DOS/Merge originally as
part of the AIX work for IBM and would become a core part of OS/2 Warp
IIRC.  Both Merge and VPIX had some rough edges but certainly worked fine
for DOS 3.3 programs.  The issue tended to be Win and DOS graphics-based
programs/games that played fast and loose, bypassing the DOS OS interface
and accessing the HW directly.  For instance, I never got the flight
simulator (Air War over Germany) for Dad's WWII plane (P-47 Thunderbolt) to
run under either (i.e., only under DOS directly on the HW. FWIW: In that
mode, Dad said the simulator flew a lot like how he remembered it).

Both Merge and VPIX used the 386 VM support and a bunch of work in the core
OS.   Heinz would have to fill us in here.  The version of the 386 port ISC
delivered to AT&T and Intel only had the kernel changes to allow the VM
support for VPIX to be linked in, but it was not there.   IICR (and I'm not
sure I am) is that Merge could run on PC/IX also, but you had to replace a
couple of kernel modules.  It certainly would work on the AT&T and Intel
versions.
ᐧ

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Marc Rochkind]

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@Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com>,

I don't remember what it was. But, the XT had an 8088, so certainly no 386
technology was involved.

Marc

On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 8:38 AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

> @Marc
>
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 1:18 PM Marc Rochkind <mrochkind@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> At a trade show, I bought a utility that allowed me to run PC-DOS under
>> PC/IX. I'm sure it wasn't a virtual machine. Rather, it just swapped back
>> and forth. (Guessing a bit there.)
>>
> Hmm ... you sure it was not either VPIX or DOS/Merge -- ISC built VPIX in
> cooperation with the Phoenix Tech folks for PC/IX. I always bought a copy
> with it, but it may have been an option.   LCC did DOS/Merge originally as
> part of the AIX work for IBM and would become a core part of OS/2 Warp
> IIRC.  Both Merge and VPIX had some rough edges but certainly worked fine
> for DOS 3.3 programs.  The issue tended to be Win and DOS graphics-based
> programs/games that played fast and loose, bypassing the DOS OS interface
> and accessing the HW directly.  For instance, I never got the flight
> simulator (Air War over Germany) for Dad's WWII plane (P-47 Thunderbolt) to
> run under either (i.e., only under DOS directly on the HW. FWIW: In that
> mode, Dad said the simulator flew a lot like how he remembered it).
>
> Both Merge and VPIX used the 386 VM support and a bunch of work in the
> core OS.   Heinz would have to fill us in here.  The version of the 386
> port ISC delivered to AT&T and Intel only had the kernel changes to allow
> the VM support for VPIX to be linked in, but it was not there.   IICR (and
> I'm not sure I am) is that Merge could run on PC/IX also, but you had to
> replace a couple of kernel modules.  It certainly would work on the AT&T
> and Intel versions.
> ᐧ
>


-- 
*My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com <mrochkind@gmail.com>*

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Warner Losh]

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On Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 9:28 AM Marc Rochkind <mrochkind@gmail.com> wrote:

> @Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com>,
>
> I don't remember what it was. But, the XT had an 8088, so certainly n
>
o 386 technology was involved.
>

Venix could also run DOS. There is a kernel module (well .o) that handles
it...

Warner

Marc
>
> On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 8:38 AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>
>> @Marc
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 1:18 PM Marc Rochkind <mrochkind@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> At a trade show, I bought a utility that allowed me to run PC-DOS under
>>> PC/IX. I'm sure it wasn't a virtual machine. Rather, it just swapped back
>>> and forth. (Guessing a bit there.)
>>>
>> Hmm ... you sure it was not either VPIX or DOS/Merge -- ISC built VPIX in
>> cooperation with the Phoenix Tech folks for PC/IX. I always bought a copy
>> with it, but it may have been an option.   LCC did DOS/Merge originally as
>> part of the AIX work for IBM and would become a core part of OS/2 Warp
>> IIRC.  Both Merge and VPIX had some rough edges but certainly worked fine
>> for DOS 3.3 programs.  The issue tended to be Win and DOS graphics-based
>> programs/games that played fast and loose, bypassing the DOS OS interface
>> and accessing the HW directly.  For instance, I never got the flight
>> simulator (Air War over Germany) for Dad's WWII plane (P-47 Thunderbolt) to
>> run under either (i.e., only under DOS directly on the HW. FWIW: In that
>> mode, Dad said the simulator flew a lot like how he remembered it).
>>
>> Both Merge and VPIX used the 386 VM support and a bunch of work in the
>> core OS.   Heinz would have to fill us in here.  The version of the 386
>> port ISC delivered to AT&T and Intel only had the kernel changes to allow
>> the VM support for VPIX to be linked in, but it was not there.   IICR (and
>> I'm not sure I am) is that Merge could run on PC/IX also, but you had to
>> replace a couple of kernel modules.  It certainly would work on the AT&T
>> and Intel versions.
>> ᐧ
>>
>
>
> --
> *My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com <mrochkind@gmail.com>*
>

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Clem Cole]

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Thanks.  Fair enough.  You mentioned PC/IX as *ISC's System III*

I'm not sure I ever ran ISC's System III port—only the V.3 port - which was
the basis for their ATT, Intel, and IBM work and later sold directly.   I'm
fairly sure ISC also called that port PC/IX, but they might have added
something to say with 386 in the name—I've forgotten. [Heinz probably can
clarify here]. Anyway, this is likely the source of my thinking. FWIW:  The
copy of PC/IX for the 386 (which I still have on a system I have not booted
in ages) definitely has VPIX.
ᐧ

On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 11:28 AM Marc Rochkind <mrochkind@gmail.com> wrote:

> @Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com>,
>
> I don't remember what it was. But, the XT had an 8088, so certainly no 386
> technology was involved.
>
> Marc
>
> On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 8:38 AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>
>> @Marc
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 1:18 PM Marc Rochkind <mrochkind@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> At a trade show, I bought a utility that allowed me to run PC-DOS under
>>> PC/IX. I'm sure it wasn't a virtual machine. Rather, it just swapped back
>>> and forth. (Guessing a bit there.)
>>>
>> Hmm ... you sure it was not either VPIX or DOS/Merge -- ISC built VPIX in
>> cooperation with the Phoenix Tech folks for PC/IX. I always bought a copy
>> with it, but it may have been an option.   LCC did DOS/Merge originally as
>> part of the AIX work for IBM and would become a core part of OS/2 Warp
>> IIRC.  Both Merge and VPIX had some rough edges but certainly worked fine
>> for DOS 3.3 programs.  The issue tended to be Win and DOS graphics-based
>> programs/games that played fast and loose, bypassing the DOS OS interface
>> and accessing the HW directly.  For instance, I never got the flight
>> simulator (Air War over Germany) for Dad's WWII plane (P-47 Thunderbolt) to
>> run under either (i.e., only under DOS directly on the HW. FWIW: In that
>> mode, Dad said the simulator flew a lot like how he remembered it).
>>
>> Both Merge and VPIX used the 386 VM support and a bunch of work in the
>> core OS.   Heinz would have to fill us in here.  The version of the 386
>> port ISC delivered to AT&T and Intel only had the kernel changes to allow
>> the VM support for VPIX to be linked in, but it was not there.   IICR (and
>> I'm not sure I am) is that Merge could run on PC/IX also, but you had to
>> replace a couple of kernel modules.  It certainly would work on the AT&T
>> and Intel versions.
>> ᐧ
>>
>
>
> --
> *My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com <mrochkind@gmail.com>*
>

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Paul Ruizendaal]

> On 11 Mar 2024, at 18:12, Paul Ruizendaal <pnr@planet.nl> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 4:14 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
>> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.
>> Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
>> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
> 
> An unusual one would be the “revenue bomb” compiler that Charles Simonyi and Richard Brodie did at Microsoft in 1981.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> I think the compiler also had a Xenix port, maybe it even was Xenix native (and at this time, Xenix would still essentially have been V7).

I was pointed to the book “Writing Solid Code”, Microsoft Press ISBN 1-55615-551-4. In the foreword it says:

"The system we used to develop Multiplan was pretty sophisticated for PC development in those days. We wrote the core product in C - most programs then were written in assembly or Pascal. We did our editing and compilation on a PDP-11 running Unix. The C code was compiled into p-code and downloaded to the target machines. We had to build p-code interpreters for each microprocessor in use at that time. By the end of 1983, we had interpreters working for the 8080/Z80, the 6502, the Z8000, the 68000, the 9900, and the 8086.”

So the Simonyi compiler was Xenix/Unix native.

The specs for its p-code interpreter can be found here:
https://forums.atariage.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=887196
https://forums.atariage.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=887197

[TUHS] History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Tom Lyon]

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For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.
Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Warner Losh]

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On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 4:14 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com> wrote:

> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.
> Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
>

MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86 port.
They supported the popular micros of the time. Various versions of them
survive to the present day.

Warner

>

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Dave Horsfall]

On Thu, 7 Mar 2024, Warner Losh wrote:

> MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86 port. 
> They supported the popular micros of the time. Various versions of them 
> survive to the present day.

That reminds me: there was the Hi-Tech C Compiler for the Z-80 (CP/M); it 
was full ANSI (unlike BDS C which barely supported C).

-- Dave

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Larry McVoy]

On Fri, Mar 08, 2024 at 10:39:20AM +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Mar 2024, Warner Losh wrote:
> 
> > MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86 port. 
> > They supported the popular micros of the time. Various versions of them 
> > survive to the present day.
> 
> That reminds me: there was the Hi-Tech C Compiler for the Z-80 (CP/M); it 
> was full ANSI (unlike BDS C which barely supported C).

Some people like to hate on BDS C, I'm not one of them.  It was a very
fast compiler compared to other C compilers (Turbo Pascal was a lot 
faster, I remain impressed with that speed to this day).

My memory is BDS C did C just fine, but had a very non standard standard
I/O library.  I had relearn stdio when I got to Unix.  But I never had a
problem with it not compiling C.

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Luther Johnson]

Speaking of the CP/M and later DOS world, Aztec C was a very competent C
compiler. I recently put together a CP/M environment, and used the
latest version I could find of Aztec C, and it did just what I wanted it
to do.

On 03/07/2024 04:49 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 08, 2024 at 10:39:20AM +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>> On Thu, 7 Mar 2024, Warner Losh wrote:
>>
>>> MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86 port.
>>> They supported the popular micros of the time. Various versions of them
>>> survive to the present day.
>> That reminds me: there was the Hi-Tech C Compiler for the Z-80 (CP/M); it
>> was full ANSI (unlike BDS C which barely supported C).
> Some people like to hate on BDS C, I'm not one of them.  It was a very
> fast compiler compared to other C compilers (Turbo Pascal was a lot
> faster, I remain impressed with that speed to this day).
>
> My memory is BDS C did C just fine, but had a very non standard standard
> I/O library.  I had relearn stdio when I got to Unix.  But I never had a
> problem with it not compiling C.
>

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[John Foust via TUHS]

At 05:56 PM 3/7/2024, Luther Johnson wrote:
>Speaking of the CP/M and later DOS world, Aztec C was a very competent C
>compiler. I recently put together a CP/M environment, and used the
>latest version I could find of Aztec C, and it did just what I wanted it
>to do.

There is an extensive web with the history of Aztec C. 

https://www.aztecmuseum.ca/

I don't see any Unix products there, but I have a vague memory of
one of the compiler developers telling me about how they bootstrapped
on a PDP.

- John

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Greg 'groggy' Lehey]

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On Thursday,  7 March 2024 at 15:49:21 -0800, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 08, 2024 at 10:39:20AM +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>> On Thu, 7 Mar 2024, Warner Losh wrote:
>>
>>> MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86 port.
>>> They supported the popular micros of the time. Various versions of them
>>> survive to the present day.
>>
>> That reminds me: there was the Hi-Tech C Compiler for the Z-80 (CP/M); it
>> was full ANSI (unlike BDS C which barely supported C).
>
> Some people like to hate on BDS C, I'm not one of them.  It was a very
> fast compiler compared to other C compilers

+1.  I started with BDS C in about 1980, when it came bundled with
MINCE.  It took me a long time before I used a real, standard C
compiler.

> My memory is BDS C did C just fine, but had a very non standard
> standard I/O library.  I had relearn stdio when I got to Unix.

Yes, this matches my experience.

Greg
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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Rich Salz]

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I believe Snyder was an MIT Master's thesis, finished in 1975[1].  There
was a fair amount of C and compiler work at MIT LCS, perhaps JNC can post
some info. I think Snyder's compiler was used for the MIT PC/IP[2] project;
the links at BitSavers imply they are related. PC/IP brought TCP and
clients to DOS 3 machines and was commercialized as FTP software and was
one of the reasons for the creation of the MIT license[4]. BDS C[3] was
done by an MIT drop-out, Leor Zolman. I bought my first motorcycle from him
:) BDS C was used for the first implementations of MINCE (mince is not
complete emacs -- those kinds of acronyms were popular) and Scribble,
downsized clones of emacs and Scribe, respectively.

[1] http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/specpub.php?id=717
[2] https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/pcip-1986.pdf
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C
[4] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9263265

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Warner Losh]

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On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:08 PM Rich Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com> wrote:

> I believe Snyder was an MIT Master's thesis, finished in 1975[1].  There
> was a fair amount of C and compiler work at MIT LCS, perhaps JNC can post
> some info. I think Snyder's compiler was used for the MIT PC/IP[2] project;
> the links at BitSavers imply they are related. PC/IP brought TCP and
> clients to DOS 3 machines and was commercialized as FTP software and was
> one of the reasons for the creation of the MIT license[4]. BDS C[3] was
> done by an MIT drop-out, Leor Zolman. I bought my first motorcycle from him
> :) BDS C was used for the first implementations of MINCE (mince is not
> complete emacs -- those kinds of acronyms were popular) and Scribble,
> downsized clones of emacs and Scribe, respectively.
>
> [1] http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/specpub.php?id=717
> [2] https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/pcip-1986.pdf
> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C
> [4] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9263265
>

Judging from what's at the bitsavers I posted, the source for pcip and this
is the backstory to them.

Warner

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Rob Pike]

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Chris Fraser and Dave Hanson did LLC and wrote a book about it, very clean
and pedagogically valuable.

https://www.amazon.com.au/Retargetable-C-Compiler-Design-Implementation/dp/0805316701

-rob


On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 11:31 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:08 PM Rich Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I believe Snyder was an MIT Master's thesis, finished in 1975[1].  There
>> was a fair amount of C and compiler work at MIT LCS, perhaps JNC can post
>> some info. I think Snyder's compiler was used for the MIT PC/IP[2] project;
>> the links at BitSavers imply they are related. PC/IP brought TCP and
>> clients to DOS 3 machines and was commercialized as FTP software and was
>> one of the reasons for the creation of the MIT license[4]. BDS C[3] was
>> done by an MIT drop-out, Leor Zolman. I bought my first motorcycle from him
>> :) BDS C was used for the first implementations of MINCE (mince is not
>> complete emacs -- those kinds of acronyms were popular) and Scribble,
>> downsized clones of emacs and Scribe, respectively.
>>
>> [1] http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/specpub.php?id=717
>> [2] https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/pcip-1986.pdf
>> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C
>> [4] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9263265
>>
>
> Judging from what's at the bitsavers I posted, the source for pcip and
> this is the backstory to them.
>
> Warner
>

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Bakul Shah via TUHS]

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What is the history of Plan9's C compiler? Was it a from scratch implementation?

> On Mar 7, 2024, at 4:57 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Chris Fraser and Dave Hanson did LLC and wrote a book about it, very clean and pedagogically valuable.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com.au/Retargetable-C-Compiler-Design-Implementation/dp/0805316701
> 
> -rob
> 
> 
> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 11:31 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com <mailto:imp@bsdimp.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:08 PM Rich Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com <mailto:rich.salz@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> I believe Snyder was an MIT Master's thesis, finished in 1975[1].  There was a fair amount of C and compiler work at MIT LCS, perhaps JNC can post some info. I think Snyder's compiler was used for the MIT PC/IP[2] project; the links at BitSavers imply they are related. PC/IP brought TCP and clients to DOS 3 machines and was commercialized as FTP software and was one of the reasons for the creation of the MIT license[4]. BDS C[3] was done by an MIT drop-out, Leor Zolman. I bought my first motorcycle from him :) BDS C was used for the first implementations of MINCE (mince is not complete emacs -- those kinds of acronyms were popular) and Scribble, downsized clones of emacs and Scribe, respectively.
>>> 
>>> [1] http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/specpub.php?id=717
>>> [2] https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/pcip-1986.pdf
>>> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C
>>> [4] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9263265
>> 
>> Judging from what's at the bitsavers I posted, the source for pcip and this is the backstory to them.
>> 
>> Warner


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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Rob Pike]

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Yes. Ken wrote the first version for the National 32000 (maybe even 16000?)
on the Sequent. He ported to the MIPS when we started Plan 9.

-rob


On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 12:08 PM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:

> What is the history of Plan9's C compiler? Was it a from scratch
> implementation?
>
> On Mar 7, 2024, at 4:57 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Chris Fraser and Dave Hanson did LLC and wrote a book about it, very clean
> and pedagogically valuable.
>
>
> https://www.amazon.com.au/Retargetable-C-Compiler-Design-Implementation/dp/0805316701
>
> -rob
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 11:31 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:08 PM Rich Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I believe Snyder was an MIT Master's thesis, finished in 1975[1].  There
>>> was a fair amount of C and compiler work at MIT LCS, perhaps JNC can post
>>> some info. I think Snyder's compiler was used for the MIT PC/IP[2] project;
>>> the links at BitSavers imply they are related. PC/IP brought TCP and
>>> clients to DOS 3 machines and was commercialized as FTP software and was
>>> one of the reasons for the creation of the MIT license[4]. BDS C[3] was
>>> done by an MIT drop-out, Leor Zolman. I bought my first motorcycle from him
>>> :) BDS C was used for the first implementations of MINCE (mince is not
>>> complete emacs -- those kinds of acronyms were popular) and Scribble,
>>> downsized clones of emacs and Scribe, respectively.
>>>
>>> [1] http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/specpub.php?id=717
>>> [2] https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/pcip-1986.pdf
>>> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C
>>> [4] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9263265
>>>
>>
>> Judging from what's at the bitsavers I posted, the source for pcip and
>> this is the backstory to them.
>>
>> Warner
>>
>
>

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Rob Pike]

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By the way, the unmatched portability of Plan 9 and Go stems from the way
Ken structured that compiler. My talk at GopherCon about the Go assembler
describes this architecture and why it worked so well. Others feel that by
being unorthodox it is clearly bogus and we are jackasses, but such
complainers only notice the difference and don't ask why the difference is
there.

-rob


On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 12:10 PM Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes. Ken wrote the first version for the National 32000 (maybe even
> 16000?) on the Sequent. He ported to the MIPS when we started Plan 9.
>
> -rob
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 12:08 PM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
>
>> What is the history of Plan9's C compiler? Was it a from scratch
>> implementation?
>>
>> On Mar 7, 2024, at 4:57 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Chris Fraser and Dave Hanson did LLC and wrote a book about it, very
>> clean and pedagogically valuable.
>>
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com.au/Retargetable-C-Compiler-Design-Implementation/dp/0805316701
>>
>> -rob
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 11:31 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:08 PM Rich Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I believe Snyder was an MIT Master's thesis, finished in 1975[1].
>>>> There was a fair amount of C and compiler work at MIT LCS, perhaps JNC can
>>>> post some info. I think Snyder's compiler was used for the MIT PC/IP[2]
>>>> project; the links at BitSavers imply they are related. PC/IP brought TCP
>>>> and clients to DOS 3 machines and was commercialized as FTP software and
>>>> was one of the reasons for the creation of the MIT license[4]. BDS C[3] was
>>>> done by an MIT drop-out, Leor Zolman. I bought my first motorcycle from him
>>>> :) BDS C was used for the first implementations of MINCE (mince is not
>>>> complete emacs -- those kinds of acronyms were popular) and Scribble,
>>>> downsized clones of emacs and Scribe, respectively.
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/specpub.php?id=717
>>>> [2] https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/pcip-1986.pdf
>>>> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C
>>>> [4] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9263265
>>>>
>>>
>>> Judging from what's at the bitsavers I posted, the source for pcip and
>>> this is the backstory to them.
>>>
>>> Warner
>>>
>>
>>

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Bakul Shah via TUHS]

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Thanks!

Yes, I love the way go and plan9 C compilers work. IMHO all new compilers should be written like that. I detest clang & llvm, especially when, for example, Freebsd make buildworld (from scratch) takes over an hour because of clang+llvm times. Surely llvm author(s) could've achieved all the flexibility llvm provide for various frontends in a different way? [FreeBSD is also at fault. I think it can be compiled with gcc but no other small and fast compilers like tcc]

> On Mar 7, 2024, at 5:12 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> By the way, the unmatched portability of Plan 9 and Go stems from the way Ken structured that compiler. My talk at GopherCon about the Go assembler describes this architecture and why it worked so well. Others feel that by being unorthodox it is clearly bogus and we are jackasses, but such complainers only notice the difference and don't ask why the difference is there.
> 
> -rob
> 
> 
> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 12:10 PM Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com <mailto:robpike@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Yes. Ken wrote the first version for the National 32000 (maybe even 16000?) on the Sequent. He ported to the MIPS when we started Plan 9.
>> 
>> -rob
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 12:08 PM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org <mailto:bakul@iitbombay.org>> wrote:
>>> What is the history of Plan9's C compiler? Was it a from scratch implementation?
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 7, 2024, at 4:57 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com <mailto:robpike@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Chris Fraser and Dave Hanson did LLC and wrote a book about it, very clean and pedagogically valuable.
>>>> 
>>>> https://www.amazon.com.au/Retargetable-C-Compiler-Design-Implementation/dp/0805316701
>>>> 
>>>> -rob
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 11:31 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com <mailto:imp@bsdimp.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:08 PM Rich Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com <mailto:rich.salz@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> I believe Snyder was an MIT Master's thesis, finished in 1975[1].  There was a fair amount of C and compiler work at MIT LCS, perhaps JNC can post some info. I think Snyder's compiler was used for the MIT PC/IP[2] project; the links at BitSavers imply they are related. PC/IP brought TCP and clients to DOS 3 machines and was commercialized as FTP software and was one of the reasons for the creation of the MIT license[4]. BDS C[3] was done by an MIT drop-out, Leor Zolman. I bought my first motorcycle from him :) BDS C was used for the first implementations of MINCE (mince is not complete emacs -- those kinds of acronyms were popular) and Scribble, downsized clones of emacs and Scribe, respectively.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> [1] http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/specpub.php?id=717
>>>>>> [2] https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/pcip-1986.pdf
>>>>>> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C
>>>>>> [4] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9263265
>>>>> 
>>>>> Judging from what's at the bitsavers I posted, the source for pcip and this is the backstory to them.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Warner
>>> 


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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[arnold]

Interestingly, they used Literate Programming to do so.
The source is available, but IIRC there isn't a back end
for x86_64.

Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:

> Chris Fraser and Dave Hanson did LLC and wrote a book about it, very clean
> and pedagogically valuable.
>
> https://www.amazon.com.au/Retargetable-C-Compiler-Design-Implementation/dp/0805316701
>
> -rob
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 11:31 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:08 PM Rich Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I believe Snyder was an MIT Master's thesis, finished in 1975[1].  There
> >> was a fair amount of C and compiler work at MIT LCS, perhaps JNC can post
> >> some info. I think Snyder's compiler was used for the MIT PC/IP[2] project;
> >> the links at BitSavers imply they are related. PC/IP brought TCP and
> >> clients to DOS 3 machines and was commercialized as FTP software and was
> >> one of the reasons for the creation of the MIT license[4]. BDS C[3] was
> >> done by an MIT drop-out, Leor Zolman. I bought my first motorcycle from him
> >> :) BDS C was used for the first implementations of MINCE (mince is not
> >> complete emacs -- those kinds of acronyms were popular) and Scribble,
> >> downsized clones of emacs and Scribe, respectively.
> >>
> >> [1] http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/specpub.php?id=717
> >> [2] https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/pcip-1986.pdf
> >> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C
> >> [4] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9263265
> >>
> >
> > Judging from what's at the bitsavers I posted, the source for pcip and
> > this is the backstory to them.
> >
> > Warner
> >

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Wesley Parish]

The first book on compilers I got that included the source code.

It's been incorporated into lcc-win32, a neat little Win32 compiler 
suite that I have at times played with, mostly during the times I was 
actively maintaining a Windows-based community cybercaf. It's been 
upgraded to lcc-win64, so there is a back end for x86_64. Just not a 
*nix one.

Wesley Parish

On 8/03/24 22:33, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> Interestingly, they used Literate Programming to do so.
> The source is available, but IIRC there isn't a back end
> for x86_64.
>
> Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Chris Fraser and Dave Hanson did LLC and wrote a book about it, very clean
>> and pedagogically valuable.
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com.au/Retargetable-C-Compiler-Design-Implementation/dp/0805316701
>>
>> -rob
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 11:31 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:08 PM Rich Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I believe Snyder was an MIT Master's thesis, finished in 1975[1].  There
>>>> was a fair amount of C and compiler work at MIT LCS, perhaps JNC can post
>>>> some info. I think Snyder's compiler was used for the MIT PC/IP[2] project;
>>>> the links at BitSavers imply they are related. PC/IP brought TCP and
>>>> clients to DOS 3 machines and was commercialized as FTP software and was
>>>> one of the reasons for the creation of the MIT license[4]. BDS C[3] was
>>>> done by an MIT drop-out, Leor Zolman. I bought my first motorcycle from him
>>>> :) BDS C was used for the first implementations of MINCE (mince is not
>>>> complete emacs -- those kinds of acronyms were popular) and Scribble,
>>>> downsized clones of emacs and Scribe, respectively.
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/specpub.php?id=717
>>>> [2] https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/pcip-1986.pdf
>>>> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C
>>>> [4] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9263265
>>>>
>>> Judging from what's at the bitsavers I posted, the source for pcip and
>>> this is the backstory to them.
>>>
>>> Warner
>>>

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Luther Johnson]

LCC is also the basis for "Pelle's C", a very nice and useful toolset.

On 03/08/2024 02:45 AM, Wesley Parish wrote:
> The first book on compilers I got that included the source code.
>
> It's been incorporated into lcc-win32, a neat little Win32 compiler
> suite that I have at times played with, mostly during the times I was
> actively maintaining a Windows-based community cybercaf. It's been
> upgraded to lcc-win64, so there is a back end for x86_64. Just not a
> *nix one.
>
> Wesley Parish
>
> On 8/03/24 22:33, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
>> Interestingly, they used Literate Programming to do so.
>> The source is available, but IIRC there isn't a back end
>> for x86_64.
>>
>> Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Chris Fraser and Dave Hanson did LLC and wrote a book about it, very
>>> clean
>>> and pedagogically valuable.
>>>
>>> https://www.amazon.com.au/Retargetable-C-Compiler-Design-Implementation/dp/0805316701
>>>
>>>
>>> -rob
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 8, 2024 at 11:31 AM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:08 PM Rich Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I believe Snyder was an MIT Master's thesis, finished in 1975[1].
>>>>> There
>>>>> was a fair amount of C and compiler work at MIT LCS, perhaps JNC
>>>>> can post
>>>>> some info. I think Snyder's compiler was used for the MIT PC/IP[2]
>>>>> project;
>>>>> the links at BitSavers imply they are related. PC/IP brought TCP and
>>>>> clients to DOS 3 machines and was commercialized as FTP software
>>>>> and was
>>>>> one of the reasons for the creation of the MIT license[4]. BDS
>>>>> C[3] was
>>>>> done by an MIT drop-out, Leor Zolman. I bought my first motorcycle
>>>>> from him
>>>>> :) BDS C was used for the first implementations of MINCE (mince is
>>>>> not
>>>>> complete emacs -- those kinds of acronyms were popular) and Scribble,
>>>>> downsized clones of emacs and Scribe, respectively.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] http://www.lcs.mit.edu/publications/specpub.php?id=717
>>>>> [2] https://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/pcip-1986.pdf
>>>>> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C
>>>>> [4] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9263265
>>>>>
>>>> Judging from what's at the bitsavers I posted, the source for pcip and
>>>> this is the backstory to them.
>>>>
>>>> Warner
>>>>

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[William H. Mitchell]

Speaking of Hanson, I had the great privilege of taking a compilers class from him at the U of Arizona in the early 80s.  We wrote a recursive descent C compiler, a linker, and a debugger. They were all "real", albeit with simplifications.  Hanson wrote the DEC-10 C compiler that we students used.  He wrote enough of an i/o library for our needs, with installments barely ahead of when we needed them. :)

An interesting simplification Hanson used was that 'sizeof <everything>' was 1.  I still marvel at what a great lesson about C that is.  (A YAGNI lesson, too, I suppose.)

When the question of "What’s the best class you ever had?" comes up, my answer is, Dave Hanson’s 453.  Hanson’s slides (and more) are in https://www2.cs.arizona.edu/~whm/csc453-fall1983-DRHanson.pdf.  The slides start on 44.

I also worked for both Hanson and later, Fraser.  To this day I’m impressed that Fraser consistently resisted the temptation for choke me to death for being an idiot who thought he knew everything.

The LCC book Rob cites below is surely a classic and, as written in its Foreword, the book is an example of a "literate program".

--whm

> On Mar 7, 2024, at 5:57 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Chris Fraser and Dave Hanson did LLC and wrote a book about it, very clean and pedagogically valuable.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com.au/Retargetable-C-Compiler-Design-Implementation/dp/0805316701
> 
> -rob

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Adam Thornton]

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Oh!  Yeah, I had a class with Dave Hanson my first year of grad school at
Princeton, and it was excellent.  We commiserated a little while after that
when Richard Stevens passed.

*C Interfaces and Implementations* has done a lot to structure how I think
in the decades since.

Adam

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Phil Budne]

On Thu, 7 Mar 2024 Larry McVoy wrote:
> My memory is BDS C did C just fine, but had a very non standard standard
> I/O library.  I had relearn stdio when I got to Unix.  But I never had a
> problem with it not compiling C.

Early on (originally?) a question asked was "what non-AT&T origin
compilers were used to compile Unix.  Two non-AT&T compilers I
remember wrangling with on U in the 1980's were Green Hills (on the
Encore Multimax), and another compiler on some early flavor of ROMP or
Power based IBM workstation.  Maybe it was xlc?

I remember one of them was unaware that case labels are valid ANYWHERE
inside of a switch statement (the feature Duff applied so cleverly),
something I discovered trying to bring up cfront (the original
C++/C-with-classes compiler, that output C).

On BDS C, I remember chatting with Leor Zolman: he was looking to
contract someone to port BDS (Brain Damage Systems) C to the PC, but
it was written in assembly language, so it wasn't a particularly
attractive job.  I don't recall him having a _particularly_ high
opinion of the code, but I could be misremembering.

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Warner Losh]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 831 bytes --]

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 4:24 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 4:14 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
>> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.
>> Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
>> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
>>
>
> MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86 port.
> They supported the popular micros of the time. Various versions of them
> survive to the present day.
>

It's at bitsavers:

https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar
and
https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/

are pointers to compilers from the early 80s. Obviously not ANSI-C
compilers :)

Warner

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Charles H Sauer (he/him)]

On 3/7/2024 5:52 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 4:24 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com 
> <mailto:imp@bsdimp.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>     On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 4:14 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com
>     <mailto:pugs78@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>         For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history
>         of C compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and
>         Snyder at Bell.  Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
>         Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
> 
> 
>     MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86
>     port. They supported the popular micros of the time. Various
>     versions of them survive to the present day.
> 
> 
> It's at bitsavers:
> 
> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar 
> <https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar>
> and
> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/ 
> <https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/>
> 
> are pointers to compilers from the early 80s. Obviously not ANSI-C 
> compilers :)
> 
> Warner

See, also, 
https://www.program-transformation.org/Transform/CCompilerHistory.html & 
http://www.desmet-c.com/.

When I only had PC/IX on an XT at my office and a PCjr at home, I mostly 
worked with C at home with DeSmet. I still have a couple of 5.25" 360K 
diskettes labeled C-Ware, which I think are DeSmet 2.4.

Charlie

-- 
voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer@technologists.com
fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
Facebook/Google/LinkedIn/Twitter: CharlesHSauer

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Marc Rochkind]

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Larry & Dave, thanks for jogging my memory. I'm pretty sure it was BDS C on
that z80 Zenith computer. (See my longer post above.)

I should add that around 1984 I got a copy of PC/IX for the IBM XT,
directly from Interactive Systems in Santa Monica, where I knew a few
people. That was true UNIX, System III, I think, and I used it for all of
the examples for my book "Advanced UNIX Programming," which came out in
1985. It, of course, had a real Bell Labs C compiler.

Marc

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:15 PM Charles H Sauer (he/him) <
sauer@technologists.com> wrote:

> On 3/7/2024 5:52 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 4:24 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com
> > <mailto:imp@bsdimp.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >     On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 4:14 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com
> >     <mailto:pugs78@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >         For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history
> >         of C compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and
> >         Snyder at Bell.  Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
> >         Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
> >
> >
> >     MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86
> >     port. They supported the popular micros of the time. Various
> >     versions of them survive to the present day.
> >
> >
> > It's at bitsavers:
> >
> > https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar
> > <https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar>
> > and
> > https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/
> > <https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/>
> >
> > are pointers to compilers from the early 80s. Obviously not ANSI-C
> > compilers :)
> >
> > Warner
>
> See, also,
> https://www.program-transformation.org/Transform/CCompilerHistory.html &
> http://www.desmet-c.com/.
>
> When I only had PC/IX on an XT at my office and a PCjr at home, I mostly
> worked with C at home with DeSmet. I still have a couple of 5.25" 360K
> diskettes labeled C-Ware, which I think are DeSmet 2.4.
>
> Charlie
>
> --
> voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer@technologists.com
> fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
> Facebook/Google/LinkedIn/Twitter
> <https://technologists.com/sauer/Facebook/Google/LinkedIn/Twitter>:
> CharlesHSauer
>


-- 
*My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com <mrochkind@gmail.com>*

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Heinz Lycklama]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2956 bytes --]

Marc is correct. All of ISC C compilers were based
on Bell Labs C compilers, starting with a C compiler
for the DEC VAX machine in 1978.

Heinz

On 3/7/2024 4:30 PM, Marc Rochkind wrote:
> Larry & Dave, thanks for jogging my memory. I'm pretty sure it was BDS 
> C on that z80 Zenith computer. (See my longer post above.)
>
> I should add that around 1984 I got a copy of PC/IX for the IBM XT, 
> directly from Interactive Systems in Santa Monica, where I knew a few 
> people. That was true UNIX, System III, I think, and I used it for all 
> of the examples for my book "Advanced UNIX Programming," which came 
> out in 1985. It, of course, had a real Bell Labs C compiler.
>
> Marc
>
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:15 PM Charles H Sauer (he/him) 
> <sauer@technologists.com> wrote:
>
>     On 3/7/2024 5:52 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
>     >
>     >
>     > On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 4:24 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com
>     > <mailto:imp@bsdimp.com>> wrote:
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >     On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 4:14 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com
>     >     <mailto:pugs78@gmail.com>> wrote:
>     >
>     >         For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early
>     history
>     >         of C compilers that were not derived from Ritchie,
>     Johnson, and
>     >         Snyder at Bell.  Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
>     >         Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
>     >
>     >
>     >     MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the
>     Venix x86
>     >     port. They supported the popular micros of the time. Various
>     >     versions of them survive to the present day.
>     >
>     >
>     > It's at bitsavers:
>     >
>     > https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar
>     > <https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar>
>     > and
>     > https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/
>     > <https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/>
>     >
>     > are pointers to compilers from the early 80s. Obviously not ANSI-C
>     > compilers :)
>     >
>     > Warner
>
>     See, also,
>     https://www.program-transformation.org/Transform/CCompilerHistory.html
>     &
>     http://www.desmet-c.com/.
>
>     When I only had PC/IX on an XT at my office and a PCjr at home, I
>     mostly
>     worked with C at home with DeSmet. I still have a couple of 5.25"
>     360K
>     diskettes labeled C-Ware, which I think are DeSmet 2.4.
>
>     Charlie
>
>     -- 
>     voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer@technologists.com
>     fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
>     Facebook/Google/LinkedIn/Twitter
>     <https://technologists.com/sauer/Facebook/Google/LinkedIn/Twitter>:
>     CharlesHSauer
>
>
>
> -- 
> /My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com/

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[segaloco via TUHS]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3463 bytes --]

Tom you mentioned non-Bell compilers, but also x86, so I can't resist pointing out: https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/otherports/newp.pdf

Among the handful of systems experimented with in these Bell Labs UNIX porting experiences is the 8086 which was being used for some sort of internal project at the time. I'm not aware of any artifacts (UNIX nor C) from that port, nor if any 32-bit and beyond x86 compiler technology out there derives from any of these efforts, but worth mentioning in the history of C touching Intel platforms. I do seem to recall some discussion here a while back that implied that the SGS suite may have had its genesis in some of these efforts. The internal Bell Labs version of Release 5.0 has SGS compilers for several BellMAC targets that I think descend from some of this work. I'd have to go looking for proof though so consider that anecdotal for now.

- Matt G.

On Thursday, March 7th, 2024 at 4:54 PM, Heinz Lycklama heinz@osta.com wrote:

> Marc is correct. All of ISC C compilers were based
> on Bell Labs C compilers, starting with a C compiler
> for the DEC VAX machine in 1978.
>
> Heinz
>
> On 3/7/2024 4:30 PM, Marc Rochkind wrote:
>
>> Larry & Dave, thanks for jogging my memory. I'm pretty sure it was BDS C on that z80 Zenith computer. (See my longer post above.)
>> I should add that around 1984 I got a copy of PC/IX for the IBM XT, directly from Interactive Systems in Santa Monica, where I knew a few people. That was true UNIX, System III, I think, and I used it for all of the examples for my book "Advanced UNIX Programming," which came out in 1985. It, of course, had a real Bell Labs C compiler.
>>
>> Marc
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:15 PM Charles H Sauer (he/him) sauer@technologists.com wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/7/2024 5:52 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 4:24 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com
>>>> mailto:imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 4:14 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com
>>>> mailto:pugs78@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history
>>>> of C compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and
>>>> Snyder at Bell. Especially for x86. Anyone have tales?
>>>> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
>>>>
>>>> MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86
>>>> port. They supported the popular micros of the time. Various
>>>> versions of them survive to the present day.
>>>>
>>>> It's at bitsavers:
>>>>
>>>> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar
>>>> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar
>>>> and
>>>> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/
>>>> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/
>>>>
>>>> are pointers to compilers from the early 80s. Obviously not ANSI-C
>>>> compilers :)
>>>>
>>>> Warner
>>>
>>> See, also,
>>> https://www.program-transformation.org/Transform/CCompilerHistory.html &
>>> http://www.desmet-c.com/.
>>>
>>> When I only had PC/IX on an XT at my office and a PCjr at home, I mostly
>>> worked with C at home with DeSmet. I still have a couple of 5.25" 360K
>>> diskettes labeled C-Ware, which I think are DeSmet 2.4.
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>>
>>> --
>>> voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com
>>> fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/Facebook/Google/LinkedIn/Twitter: CharlesHSauer
>>
>> --
>> My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Tom Lyon]

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Thanks, I had not seen that.
More info about UNIX on UNIVAC than I'd seen before. Who did the C compiler
for that?

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:49 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:

> Tom you mentioned non-Bell compilers, but also x86, so I can't resist
> pointing out: https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/otherports/newp.pdf
>
> Among the handful of systems experimented with in these Bell Labs UNIX
> porting experiences is the 8086 which was being used for some sort of
> internal project at the time.  I'm not aware of any artifacts (UNIX nor C)
> from that port, nor if any 32-bit and beyond x86 compiler technology out
> there derives from any of these efforts, but worth mentioning in the
> history of C touching Intel platforms.  I do seem to recall some discussion
> here a while back that implied that the SGS suite may have had its genesis
> in some of these efforts.  The internal Bell Labs version of Release 5.0
> has SGS compilers for several BellMAC targets that I think descend from
> some of this work.  I'd have to go looking for proof though so consider
> that anecdotal for now.
>
> - Matt G.
>
>
> On Thursday, March 7th, 2024 at 4:54 PM, Heinz Lycklama heinz@osta.com
> wrote:
>
> Marc is correct. All of ISC C compilers were based
> on Bell Labs C compilers, starting with a C compiler
> for the DEC VAX machine in 1978.
>
> Heinz
>
> On 3/7/2024 4:30 PM, Marc Rochkind wrote:
>
> Larry & Dave, thanks for jogging my memory. I'm pretty sure it was BDS C
> on that z80 Zenith computer. (See my longer post above.)
> I should add that around 1984 I got a copy of PC/IX for the IBM XT,
> directly from Interactive Systems in Santa Monica, where I knew a few
> people. That was true UNIX, System III, I think, and I used it for all of
> the examples for my book "Advanced UNIX Programming," which came out in
> 1985. It, of course, had a real Bell Labs C compiler.
>
> Marc
>
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 5:15 PM Charles H Sauer (he/him)
> sauer@technologists.com wrote:
>
> On 3/7/2024 5:52 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
>
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 4:24 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com
> mailto:imp@bsdimp.com <imp@bsdimp.com>> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 4:14 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com
> mailto:pugs78@gmail.com <pugs78@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history
> of C compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and
> Snyder at Bell. Especially for x86. Anyone have tales?
> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
>
> MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86
> port. They supported the popular micros of the time. Various
> versions of them survive to the present day.
>
> It's at bitsavers:
>
> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar
> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar
> and
> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/
> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/
>
> are pointers to compilers from the early 80s. Obviously not ANSI-C
> compilers :)
>
> Warner
>
> See, also,
> https://www.program-transformation.org/Transform/CCompilerHistory.html &
> http://www.desmet-c.com/.
>
> When I only had PC/IX on an XT at my office and a PCjr at home, I mostly
> worked with C at home with DeSmet. I still have a couple of 5.25" 360K
> diskettes labeled C-Ware, which I think are DeSmet 2.4.
>
> Charlie
>
> --
> voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com
> fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web:
> https://technologists.com/sauer/Facebook/Google/LinkedIn/Twitter:
> CharlesHSauer
>
> --
> My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com
>
>

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Lawrence Stewart]

Here’s a strange one.

In 1981 or early 1982, Bill Duval at Xerox Systems Development Division had a C compiler which ran on the Alto and generated code for x86.
Dan Swinehart and I used it to write the software for the PARC Etherphone, which ran on dual 8088 systems.

No idea really whether it was a hobby project or what.  I did hear a rumor that SDD was thinking of building x86 based systems, but I don’t know if they ever happened.

(aside: Duval was one of those guys who used the 3 mouse buttons and the 5 key keyset as a chorded keyboard and never moved his hands.)

-Larry

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Jonathan Gray]

On Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 04:52:26PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 4:24 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 4:14 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
> >> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.
> >> Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
> >> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
> >>
> >
> > MIT had several that were used for ka9q and at least the Venix x86 port.
> > They supported the popular micros of the time. Various versions of them
> > survive to the present day.
> >
> 
> It's at bitsavers:
> 
> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/pc-ip/8086_C_19850820.tar
> and
> https://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape/

and tuhs Applications/Portable_CC/

> 
> are pointers to compilers from the early 80s. Obviously not ANSI-C
> compilers :)
> 
> Warner

The compilers used for MIT Nu/TRIX were derived from PCC.

SUMacC, the Stanford UNIX Macintosh C development environment
reused that work, and one release announcement has:

"ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

The 68000 C compiler used by SUMacC is the Bell Labs (Johnson) portable
C compiler, ported by Chris Terman of MIT and used in the MIT NU
project and the Stanford SUN system. The assembler is by Mike Patrick,
also of MIT. This same compiler / assembler / loader is used in many
of the 68K UNIX boxes currently on the market. Many modifications and
bug fixes have been applied by folks at Stanford, MIT, and Lucasfilm:
Jeff Mogul, Bill Nowicki, John Seamons, Vaughan Pratt, Eric Ostrom, and
a cast of thousands.

Dave Johnson of Brown Univ. contributed the excellent macget/macput
programs that make downloading painless. Among the many people
contributing improvements, new example programs, and bug fixes are:
Mike Schuster of CALTECH, Dan Winkler and Steve Engle of Harvard, Bill
Schilit at Columbia, Joe Pallas and Steve Gross at Stanford, John
Seamons at Lucasfilm, John Peterson at Utah, Ben Hyde of Intermetrics,
Bruce Horn of Apple/Adobe, Van Jacobson at LBL, and many others. Thank
you all!"

Bill Croft in fa.info-mac 20 Nov 1984
https://groups.google.com/g/fa.info-mac/c/-TS9aotPoEA/m/h5U9LQ9yre4J

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Luther Johnson]

I don't have any personal tales, but I remember that P.J. Plaugher's
company, "Whitesmiths", C compiler was an early, and influential,
non-AT&T C compiler.

On 03/07/2024 04:14 PM, Tom Lyon wrote:
> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at
> Bell.  Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Luther Johnson]

Oops, misspelled Mr. Plauger's name, pardon me, that's "P.J. Plauger".

On 03/07/2024 04:24 PM, Luther Johnson wrote:
> I don't have any personal tales, but I remember that P.J. Plaugher's
> company, "Whitesmiths", C compiler was an early, and influential,
> non-AT&T C compiler.
>
> On 03/07/2024 04:14 PM, Tom Lyon wrote:
>> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
>> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at
>> Bell.  Especially for x86. Anyone have tales?
>> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
>

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Tom Lyon]

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I know of Plauger as a Kernighan co-author, so I did a search on AbeBooks
and found - a lot of science fiction!  Must investigate.

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 3:27 PM Luther Johnson <luther.johnson@makerlisp.com>
wrote:

> Oops, misspelled Mr. Plauger's name, pardon me, that's "P.J. Plauger".
>
> On 03/07/2024 04:24 PM, Luther Johnson wrote:
> > I don't have any personal tales, but I remember that P.J. Plaugher's
> > company, "Whitesmiths", C compiler was an early, and influential,
> > non-AT&T C compiler.
> >
> > On 03/07/2024 04:14 PM, Tom Lyon wrote:
> >> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
> >> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at
> >> Bell.  Especially for x86. Anyone have tales?
> >> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
> >
>
>

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Marc Rochkind]

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I got my first  computer in 1981, when I was still at Bell Labs. A Zenith,
as I recall, running CP/M 80. There was a C-like compiler, but it was a
subset. I think that computer had a z80 chip, so it wasn't an x86.

Then I got an IBM PC in 1982, with an 8088 (16-bit word, 8-bit bus), and
I'm pretty sure the first real C compiler was Lattice C. Microsoft picked
it up and called it Microsoft C. Then, maybe a couple of years later, they
came out with their own C compiler, written in-house, I think. (As I
recall, I got my Lattice C compiler, which was very expensive, for free for
writing a review for BYTE Magazine, but I can't find the review in my
office or online, so maybe I'm imagining that. Or maybe I never finished
the review or they didn't print it.)

I had an early Macintosh, too, and used Lightspeed C. I think it was
essentially complete C. It was a whole IDE, incredibly fast, and I used it
for commercial applications for the Mac. I continued to use that until
Apple bought Next and revised their product line to use NextStep. Then I
used what Apple had, but it was Objective-C (blend of Smalltalk and C)
which is what you wrote NextStep apps in. I think we used Objective-C for
Mac work until the early 1990s, when I stopped writing native Mac apps.

Lots of missing details here, I'm sure.

The August 1983 issue of BYTE Magazine was all about C, and has three
articles reviewing C compilers for CP/M 86, the IBM PC, and CP/M 80.
There's also an article called "The C Language and Models for Systems
Programming" by two guys who know about that stuff,  Stephen C. Johnson and
Brian W. Kernighan. Here's a link to the issue:
https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1983-08

Marc

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 4:45 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com> wrote:

> I know of Plauger as a Kernighan co-author, so I did a search on AbeBooks
> and found - a lot of science fiction!  Must investigate.
>
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 3:27 PM Luther Johnson <
> luther.johnson@makerlisp.com> wrote:
>
>> Oops, misspelled Mr. Plauger's name, pardon me, that's "P.J. Plauger".
>>
>> On 03/07/2024 04:24 PM, Luther Johnson wrote:
>> > I don't have any personal tales, but I remember that P.J. Plaugher's
>> > company, "Whitesmiths", C compiler was an early, and influential,
>> > non-AT&T C compiler.
>> >
>> > On 03/07/2024 04:14 PM, Tom Lyon wrote:
>> >> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
>> >> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at
>> >> Bell.  Especially for x86. Anyone have tales?
>> >> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
>> >
>>
>>

-- 
*My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com <mrochkind@gmail.com>*

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Jeffry R. Abramson]

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In grad school in the early 80's I was developing instrumentation built
around a CompuPro S-100 system running CP/M-86.  I used the Computer
Innovations C compiler https://www.clipshop.ca/c86/intro.htm , wonder
if I still have a copy on 8-inch floppies somewhere.

On Thu, 2024-03-07 at 17:24 -0700, Marc Rochkind wrote:
> I got my first  computer in 1981, when I was still at Bell Labs. A
> Zenith, as I recall, running CP/M 80. There was a C-like compiler,
> but it was a subset. I think that computer had a z80 chip, so it
> wasn't an x86.
> 
> Then I got an IBM PC in 1982, with an 8088 (16-bit word, 8-bit bus),
> and I'm pretty sure the first real C compiler was Lattice C.
> Microsoft picked it up and called it Microsoft C. Then, maybe a
> couple of years later, they came out with their own C compiler,
> written in-house, I think. (As I recall, I got my Lattice C compiler,
> which was very expensive, for free for writing a review for BYTE
> Magazine, but I can't find the review in my office or online, so
> maybe I'm imagining that. Or maybe I never finished the review or
> they didn't print it.)
> 
> I had an early Macintosh, too, and used Lightspeed C. I think it was
> essentially complete C. It was a whole IDE, incredibly fast, and I
> used it for commercial applications for the Mac. I continued to use
> that until Apple bought Next and revised their product line to use
> NextStep. Then I used what Apple had, but it was Objective-C (blend
> of Smalltalk and C) which is what you wrote NextStep apps in. I think
> we used Objective-C for Mac work until the early 1990s, when I
> stopped writing native Mac apps.
> 
> Lots of missing details here, I'm sure.
> 
> The August 1983 issue of BYTE Magazine was all about C, and has three
> articles reviewing C compilers for CP/M 86, the IBM PC, and CP/M 80.
> There's also an article called "The C Language and Models for Systems
> Programming" by two guys who know about that stuff,  Stephen C.
> Johnson and Brian W. Kernighan. Here's a link to the
> issue: https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1983-08
> 
> Marc
> 
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 4:45 PM Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I know of Plauger as a Kernighan co-author, so I did a search on
> > AbeBooks and found - a lot of science fiction!  Must investigate.
> > 
> > On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 3:27 PM Luther Johnson
> > <luther.johnson@makerlisp.com> wrote:
> > > Oops, misspelled Mr. Plauger's name, pardon me, that's "P.J.
> > > Plauger".
> > > 
> > > On 03/07/2024 04:24 PM, Luther Johnson wrote:
> > > > I don't have any personal tales, but I remember that P.J.
> > > Plaugher's
> > > > company, "Whitesmiths", C compiler was an early, and
> > > influential,
> > > > non-AT&T C compiler.
> > > >
> > > > On 03/07/2024 04:14 PM, Tom Lyon wrote:
> > > >> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early
> > > history of C
> > > >> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and
> > > Snyder at
> > > >> Bell.  Especially for x86. Anyone have tales?
> > > >> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
> > > >
> > > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com


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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Greg A. Woods]

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At Thu, 7 Mar 2024 17:24:11 -0700, Marc Rochkind <mrochkind@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: [TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?
>
> Then I got an IBM PC in 1982, with an 8088 (16-bit word, 8-bit bus), and
> I'm pretty sure the first real C compiler was Lattice C. Microsoft picked
> it up and called it Microsoft C. Then, maybe a couple of years later, they
> came out with their own C compiler, written in-house, I think. (As I
> recall, I got my Lattice C compiler, which was very expensive, for free for
> writing a review for BYTE Magazine, but I can't find the review in my
> office or online, so maybe I'm imagining that. Or maybe I never finished
> the review or they didn't print it.)

Oh, Lattice C!  The one compiler I came to hate.  It was rather buggy
and had many incompatibilities and difficulties if one was already
accustomed to using writing C on Unix.  Microsoft C in its early days
post-Lattice was somewhat less buggy, but still a bane to use, even on
Xenix where the libraries were more "complete".

I don't think the Mark Williams C compiler has been mentioned in this
thread yet.  It was of course the same one created for and used in their
Coherent system, but it was also released for various systems including
MS-DOS it was a pure joy to use.  It was extremely compatible with Unix
C of the day (having been created to build a Unix clone, and on a PDP-11
no less), and equally reliable, and came with many additional
command-line tools that were similarly familiar.

I wrote more about my experiences with some non-Unix compilers back a
few years ago in a tangentially related thread:

      https://www.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/2020-May/021231.html

--
					Greg A. Woods <gwoods@acm.org>

Kelowna, BC     +1 250 762-7675           RoboHack <woods@robohack.ca>
Planix, Inc. <woods@planix.com>     Avoncote Farms <woods@avoncote.ca>

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Will Senn]

I don't think anyone's mentioned it, but there was Watcom... now it's 
Open Watcom:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watcom_C/C%2B%2B

Watcom is from Watfor which ran on the IBM 7040 back in the 60's. The C 
compiler was developed in the 80's and I saw it a lot in the early 90's 
along with Turbo C.

Will


On 3/7/24 5:14 PM, Tom Lyon wrote:
> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C 
> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at 
> Bell.  Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Peter Yardley]

At NSWIT we used the Whitesmiths C cross compiler to produce code for some Intel 8085 development boards so we could get away from having the students write assembler. Can’t remember the exact date but it would have been 80s. We also used Xinu, Minix and Amoeba 

> On 8 Mar 2024, at 1:26 pm, Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I don't think anyone's mentioned it, but there was Watcom... now it's Open Watcom:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watcom_C/C%2B%2B
> 
> Watcom is from Watfor which ran on the IBM 7040 back in the 60's. The C compiler was developed in the 80's and I saw it a lot in the early 90's along with Turbo C.
> 
> Will
> 
> 
> On 3/7/24 5:14 PM, Tom Lyon wrote:
>> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.  Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
>> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
> 

Peter Yardley
peter.martin.yardley@gmail.com

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[George Michaelson]

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Ben Golding, an Australian C compiler person once told me gnu/gcc wiped out
his business. I think it certainly thinned out the ranks a bit.

G

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Luther Johnson]

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I believe the first Minix C compilers were based on the Amsterdam
Compiler Kit, so that's another early source.

On 03/07/2024 08:28 PM, George Michaelson wrote:
> Ben Golding, an Australian C compiler person once told me gnu/gcc
> wiped out his business. I think it certainly thinned out the ranks a bit.
>
> G
>
>
>


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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Lars Brinkhoff]

Tom Lyon writes:
> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell. 

I'm not sure to what extent the Snyder compiler was done at Bell.
It's using a Yacc with a strange syntax, and when asked, Steve Johnson
said he didn't recognize it.

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Henry Bent]

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On Thu, 7 Mar 2024 at 18:14, Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com> wrote:

> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.
> Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
>

As a slightly separate addendum, I'm curious about the slightly later
history of compilers for commercial UNIX distributions.  Were these derived
from the Bell/BSD sources or were they "clean room" approaches?  I'm
thinking of SunPRO, IBM XL C, the MIPS compiler, DEC GEM, etc.

-Henry

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[arnold]

Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 7 Mar 2024 at 18:14, Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
> > compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.
> > Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
> > Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
> >
>
> As a slightly separate addendum, I'm curious about the slightly later
> history of compilers for commercial UNIX distributions.  Were these derived
> from the Bell/BSD sources or were they "clean room" approaches?  I'm
> thinking of SunPRO, IBM XL C, the MIPS compiler, DEC GEM, etc.
>
> -Henry

I think the first MIPS compiler was PCC based and then later it
was rewritten. I'm pretty sure the others were developed from
scratch, but undoubtedly others here know for sure.

Arnold

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Warner Losh]

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On Fri, Mar 8, 2024, 6:42 AM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 7 Mar 2024 at 18:14, Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
>> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.
>> Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
>> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
>>
>
> As a slightly separate addendum, I'm curious about the slightly later
> history of compilers for commercial UNIX distributions.  Were these derived
> from the Bell/BSD sources or were they "clean room" approaches?  I'm
> thinking of SunPRO, IBM XL C, the MIPS compiler, DEC GEM, etc.
>

Almost positive SunPRO and XLc were rewrites. I base this on their unique
pickiness on software I ported to them. I had to make several changes for
each that Sun's old compiler, the VAX BSD 4.3 compiler and gcc 1.x didn't
flag... The error messages also were radically different... and the
generated code in the case of Sun was somewhat different...

Warner

>

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Paul Winalski]

On 3/7/24, Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com> wrote:
> For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C
> compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.
> Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?
> Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?
>
[topic of interest to COFF, as well, I think]

DEC's Ultrix for VAX and MIPS used off-the-shelf Unix cc.  I don't
recall what they used for Alpha.

The C compiler for VAX/VMS was written by Dave Cutler's team at
DECwest in Seattle.  The C front end generated intermediate language
(IL) for Cutler's VAX Code Generator (VCG), which was designed to be a
common back end for DEC's compilers for VAX/VMS.  His team also
licensed the Freiburghouse PL/I front end (commercial version of a
PL/I compiler originally done for Multics) and modified it to generate
VCG IL.  The VCG was also the back end for DEC's Ada compiler.  VCG
was superseded by the GEM back end, which supported Alpha and Itanium.
A port of GEM to x86 was in progress at the time Compaq sold off the
Alpha technology (including GEM and its C and Fortran front ends) to
Intel.

[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Adam Thornton]

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Not early history, but Selfie, which contains a cheerily small
implementation of a C subset called C*, is one of my favorite things.

https://github.com/cksystemsteaching/selfie

C* is described in
https://github.com/cksystemsteaching/selfie/blob/main/grammar.md

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[TUHS] Re: History of non-Bell C compilers?

[Damian Wildie]

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Does anyone know the history of Silicon Valley Software?

Their C compiler was available on Cromemco's Cromix Plus.




MC68000 "C" Compiler  V2.64                   16-Apr-87

(C) Copyright 1983, 1986 Silicon Valley Software, Inc.











---- On Fri, 08 Mar 2024 09:14:12 +1000 Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com> wrote ---



For no good reason, I've been wondering about the early history of C compilers that were not derived from Ritchie, Johnson, and Snyder at Bell.  Especially for x86.  Anyone have tales?Were any of those compilers ever used to port UNIX?

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