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* [TUHS] PCC for the i386
@ 2019-07-11 14:53 Jason Stevens
  2019-07-11 15:12 ` arnold
  2019-07-11 15:37 ` Clem cole
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Jason Stevens @ 2019-07-11 14:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from?

While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it seems that everything was built with GCC…
Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90?  It seems after the rapid demise of the Tahoe/Harris
HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC?

Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC?  I’ve been tracing through some
strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to include some bits from
Reno to get diropen to actually work.  I would imagine there ought to have been some
platform exercise code to make sure things were actually working instead of say
building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few hours to make sure
its stable enough. 

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* Re: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
  2019-07-11 14:53 [TUHS] PCC for the i386 Jason Stevens
@ 2019-07-11 15:12 ` arnold
  2019-07-11 15:37 ` Clem cole
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2019-07-11 15:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs, jsteve

Jason Stevens <jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:

> Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from?
>
> While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it seems that
> everything was built with GCC… Was there a PCC for the i386 around
> ’88-90?  It seems after the rapid demise of the Tahoe/Harris HCX-9
> that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC?

I'm pretty sure that from Tahoe on UCB just used GCC. The PCC based
compiler for i386 was available on System V ports, but by then
UCB wasn't using code from AT&T.

You can get a modernized PCC from

	http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/

(CVS) or my git mirror at https://github.com/arnoldrobbins/pcc-revived.

HTH,

Arnold

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
  2019-07-11 14:53 [TUHS] PCC for the i386 Jason Stevens
  2019-07-11 15:12 ` arnold
@ 2019-07-11 15:37 ` Clem cole
  2019-07-11 15:50   ` Jason Stevens
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread
From: Clem cole @ 2019-07-11 15:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jason Stevens; +Cc: tuhs

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I believe the pcc/386 came out of Steve Johnson team at Summit with the PCC2 work.  

Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 

> On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Jason Stevens <jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from?
>  
> While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it seems that everything was built with GCC…
> Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90?  It seems after the rapid demise of the Tahoe/Harris
> HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC?
>  
> Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC?  I’ve been tracing through some
> strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to include some bits from
> Reno to get diropen to actually work.  I would imagine there ought to have been some
> platform exercise code to make sure things were actually working instead of say
> building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few hours to make sure
> its stable enough.

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* Re: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
  2019-07-11 15:37 ` Clem cole
@ 2019-07-11 15:50   ` Jason Stevens
  2019-07-11 16:30     ` Clem cole
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread
From: Jason Stevens @ 2019-07-11 15:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem cole; +Cc: tuhs

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That would make sense.   I was able to find some info on PCC2 here




http://doc.cat-v.org/unix/unix-before-berkeley/




I'm guessing along with the adoption of emacs the csrg must have been further gnu synergy...  Or maybe PCC2 just wasn't available outside of the labs? 




Or maybe by '88 gcc was already usurping many of the c compilers of the era. 











On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:37 PM +0800, "Clem cole" <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:










I believe the pcc/386 came out of Steve Johnson team at Summit with the PCC2 work.  

Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 
On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Jason Stevens <jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:



Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from?

 

While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it seems that everything was built with GCC…

Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90?  It seems after the rapid demise of the Tahoe/Harris

HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC?

 

Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC?  I’ve been tracing through some

strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to include some bits from

Reno to get diropen to actually work.  I would imagine there ought to have been some

platform exercise code to make sure things were actually working instead of say

building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few hours to make sure

its stable enough. 





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* Re: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
  2019-07-11 15:50   ` Jason Stevens
@ 2019-07-11 16:30     ` Clem cole
  2019-07-11 16:42       ` Richard Salz
                         ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Clem cole @ 2019-07-11 16:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jason Stevens; +Cc: tuhs

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By the time of 4.2 the switch from the  Ritchie and Johnson compilers at UCB had begun.  Remember the primary output of Rms at that point was emacs and gcc.    

CSRG wanted the different backends for C.   ThAts it.  Besides the vax, Rms had done 68000 and 386 back ends then.  

With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid Interactive Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code to a 386 ps/2 and an Intel reference system that used an ISA bus.  This would be eventually released in source at the 386 port from AT&T.   As part of the contract summit supplied the compiler

I know the AT&T assembler with it’s backwards syntax from Intel was done before rms did his.  He was compatible with the summit assembler.  I don’t remember who’s 386 backend came out first.  I think is was the summit compiler but you needed a system v license which UCB did not have. 

Clem

Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 

> On Jul 11, 2019, at 8:50 AM, Jason Stevens <jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
> 
> That would make sense.   I was able to find some info on PCC2 here
> 
> http://doc.cat-v.org/unix/unix-before-berkeley/
> 
> I'm guessing along with the adoption of emacs the csrg must have been further gnu synergy...  Or maybe PCC2 just wasn't available outside of the labs? 
> 
> Or maybe by '88 gcc was already usurping many of the c compilers of the era. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:37 PM +0800, "Clem cole" <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
> 
>> I believe the pcc/386 came out of Steve Johnson team at Summit with the PCC2 work.  
>> 
>> Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 
>> 
>>> On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Jason Stevens <jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from?
>>>  
>>> While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it seems that everything was built with GCC…
>>> Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90?  It seems after the rapid demise of the Tahoe/Harris
>>> HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC?
>>>  
>>> Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC?  I’ve been tracing through some
>>> strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to include some bits from
>>> Reno to get diropen to actually work.  I would imagine there ought to have been some
>>> platform exercise code to make sure things were actually working instead of say
>>> building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few hours to make sure
>>> its stable enough.

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* Re: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
  2019-07-11 16:30     ` Clem cole
@ 2019-07-11 16:42       ` Richard Salz
  2019-07-11 16:48       ` Warner Losh
  2019-07-11 16:50       ` A. P. Garcia
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Richard Salz @ 2019-07-11 16:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem cole; +Cc: tuhs

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> I'm guessing along with the adoption of emacs the csrg must have been
> further gnu synergy...  Or maybe PCC2 just wasn't available outside of the
> labs?
>
>
John Gilmore, with CSRG help and "blessing" led a major effort to get GCC
to build all of BSD.  As I recall, he found bugs in GCC and undefined
features being used in CSRG source.

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* Re: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
  2019-07-11 16:30     ` Clem cole
  2019-07-11 16:42       ` Richard Salz
@ 2019-07-11 16:48       ` Warner Losh
  2019-07-11 17:05         ` Clem Cole
  2019-07-11 16:50       ` A. P. Garcia
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2019-07-11 16:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 10:31 AM Clem cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

> By the time of 4.2 the switch from the  Ritchie and Johnson compilers at
> UCB had begun.  Remember the primary output of Rms at that point was emacs
> and gcc.
>
> CSRG wanted the different backends for C.   ThAts it.  Besides the vax,
> Rms had done 68000 and 386 back ends then.
>
> With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid Interactive
> Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code to a 386 ps/2 and an
> Intel reference system that used an ISA bus.  This would be eventually
> released in source at the 386 port from AT&T.   As part of the contract
> summit supplied the compiler
>
> I know the AT&T assembler with it’s backwards syntax from Intel was done
> before rms did his.  He was compatible with the summit assembler.  I don’t
> remember who’s 386 backend came out first.  I think is was the summit
> compiler but you needed a system v license which UCB did not have.
>

There's also a fair amount of work at MIT to do Intel code generation for
8086 (small mode) that was extended by Queens College London (I think, I
gotta grab the tapes again) to do large mode. I've run into this looking
for a compiler for the Venix source restoration project I've been tilting
at. I found those based on a cryptic comment I found somewhere online about
the tech behind Venix that wasn't from AT&T. I don't know if ISC started
with them as a base or not, nor really how the MIT compilers came about,
but they claim to be PCC based somehow. Don't know if this helps you on
your quest... BTW, I found these when I found the latest pcc-restoration
sources didn't have a working i86 backend anymore (there was once one for
Minux, but when I built it I couldn't get it to generate sensible code at
all).

Warner


> Clem
>
> Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not
> quite.
>
> On Jul 11, 2019, at 8:50 AM, Jason Stevens <jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com>
> wrote:
>
> That would make sense.   I was able to find some info on PCC2 here
>
> http://doc.cat-v.org/unix/unix-before-berkeley/
>
> I'm guessing along with the adoption of emacs the csrg must have been
> further gnu synergy...  Or maybe PCC2 just wasn't available outside of the
> labs?
>
> Or maybe by '88 gcc was already usurping many of the c compilers of the
> era.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:37 PM +0800, "Clem cole" <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>
> I believe the pcc/386 came out of Steve Johnson team at Summit with the
>> PCC2 work.
>>
>> Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not
>> quite.
>>
>> On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Jason Stevens <
>> jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from?
>>
>>
>>
>> While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it seems that
>> everything was built with GCC…
>>
>> Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90?  It seems after the rapid
>> demise of the Tahoe/Harris
>>
>> HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC?
>>
>>
>>
>> Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC?  I’ve been tracing
>> through some
>>
>> strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to include some
>> bits from
>>
>> Reno to get diropen to actually work.  I would imagine there ought to
>> have been some
>>
>> platform exercise code to make sure things were actually working instead
>> of say
>>
>> building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few hours to make
>> sure
>>
>> its stable enough.
>>
>>

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* Re: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
  2019-07-11 16:30     ` Clem cole
  2019-07-11 16:42       ` Richard Salz
  2019-07-11 16:48       ` Warner Losh
@ 2019-07-11 16:50       ` A. P. Garcia
  2019-07-11 16:54         ` Clem Cole
                           ` (2 more replies)
  2 siblings, 3 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: A. P. Garcia @ 2019-07-11 16:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

<snip>
>
> With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid Interactive Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code to a 386 ps/2 and an Intel reference system that used an ISA bus.  This would be eventually released in source at the 386 port from AT&T.   As part of the contract summit supplied the compiler
>
<snip>

Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
  2019-07-11 16:50       ` A. P. Garcia
@ 2019-07-11 16:54         ` Clem Cole
  2019-07-12  3:44         ` Michael Parson
  2019-07-17  7:37         ` [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: " emanuel stiebler
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2019-07-11 16:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: A. P. Garcia; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:50 PM A. P. Garcia <a.phillip.garcia@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >
> > With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid Interactive
> Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code to a 386 ps/2 and an
> Intel reference system that used an ISA bus.  This would be eventually
> released in source at the 386 port from AT&T.   As part of the contract
> summit supplied the compiler
> >
> <snip>
>
> Did Sun have anything to do with that?

No...



> I seem to recall something
> called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...

Much later in time... that was post SVR3 and SVR4

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* Re: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
  2019-07-11 16:48       ` Warner Losh
@ 2019-07-11 17:05         ` Clem Cole
  2019-07-11 19:39           ` Charles H Sauer
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2019-07-11 17:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warner Losh; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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Yup, that was Steve Ward's folks in the MIT/RTS group - it was the NU
computer work.  John Siber did most of the compiler work (funny, Steve
Johnson and I were talking about some of that work last night at the UNIX50
party last night).  tjt wrote the 68K assembler ward's folks used.  I don't
remember where the Z8000 assembler came, but I'm petty sure that the Intel
assembler and some of the tools other John had brought back from his
summers in MH.

I think (but don't know for sure) the Intel 8086 assembler was done at AT&T
first.  IIRC it may have come out of Dale's group in Columbus.   I do know
Dale's group had done a Z80 C Compiler using the Ritchie Compiler at some
point in 1978 timeframe (and at one time I had, but can not seem to find
it, in my archives).

When Intel released the 386, I believe the AT&T 8086 assembler was updated
for the new 32 instructions; although who did that/where was done, I'm not
sure.

Steve is probably the best source for most of this as he managed the team
in Summit doing the different AT&T front and back ends when they tried to
centralize the compiler work for UNIX.

On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:48 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 10:31 AM Clem cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>
>> By the time of 4.2 the switch from the  Ritchie and Johnson compilers at
>> UCB had begun.  Remember the primary output of Rms at that point was emacs
>> and gcc.
>>
>> CSRG wanted the different backends for C.   ThAts it.  Besides the vax,
>> Rms had done 68000 and 386 back ends then.
>>
>> With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid Interactive
>> Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code to a 386 ps/2 and an
>> Intel reference system that used an ISA bus.  This would be eventually
>> released in source at the 386 port from AT&T.   As part of the contract
>> summit supplied the compiler
>>
>> I know the AT&T assembler with it’s backwards syntax from Intel was done
>> before rms did his.  He was compatible with the summit assembler.  I don’t
>> remember who’s 386 backend came out first.  I think is was the summit
>> compiler but you needed a system v license which UCB did not have.
>>
>
> There's also a fair amount of work at MIT to do Intel code generation for
> 8086 (small mode) that was extended by Queens College London (I think, I
> gotta grab the tapes again) to do large mode. I've run into this looking
> for a compiler for the Venix source restoration project I've been tilting
> at. I found those based on a cryptic comment I found somewhere online about
> the tech behind Venix that wasn't from AT&T. I don't know if ISC started
> with them as a base or not, nor really how the MIT compilers came about,
> but they claim to be PCC based somehow. Don't know if this helps you on
> your quest... BTW, I found these when I found the latest pcc-restoration
> sources didn't have a working i86 backend anymore (there was once one for
> Minux, but when I built it I couldn't get it to generate sensible code at
> all).
>
> Warner
>
>
>> Clem
>>
>> Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not
>> quite.
>>
>> On Jul 11, 2019, at 8:50 AM, Jason Stevens <
>> jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
>>
>> That would make sense.   I was able to find some info on PCC2 here
>>
>> http://doc.cat-v.org/unix/unix-before-berkeley/
>>
>> I'm guessing along with the adoption of emacs the csrg must have been
>> further gnu synergy...  Or maybe PCC2 just wasn't available outside of the
>> labs?
>>
>> Or maybe by '88 gcc was already usurping many of the c compilers of the
>> era.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:37 PM +0800, "Clem cole" <clemc@ccc.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I believe the pcc/386 came out of Steve Johnson team at Summit with the
>>> PCC2 work.
>>>
>>> Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not
>>> quite.
>>>
>>> On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Jason Stevens <
>>> jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it seems that
>>> everything was built with GCC…
>>>
>>> Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90?  It seems after the rapid
>>> demise of the Tahoe/Harris
>>>
>>> HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC?  I’ve been tracing
>>> through some
>>>
>>> strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to include some
>>> bits from
>>>
>>> Reno to get diropen to actually work.  I would imagine there ought to
>>> have been some
>>>
>>> platform exercise code to make sure things were actually working instead
>>> of say
>>>
>>> building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few hours to make
>>> sure
>>>
>>> its stable enough.
>>>
>>>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
  2019-07-11 17:05         ` Clem Cole
@ 2019-07-11 19:39           ` Charles H Sauer
  2019-07-12  0:14             ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread
From: Charles H Sauer @ 2019-07-11 19:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Dell SVR4 included both pcc & gcc. gcc was used to build the system.

I think Richard Wirt's group at Intel contributed to optimization for 
486, IIRC, probably for gcc, possibly for pcc.

I assume AIX/386 used pcc, but Clem likely knows for sure.

Charlie

On 7/11/2019 12:05 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
> Yup, that was Steve Ward's folks in the MIT/RTS group - it was the NU 
> computer work.  John Siber did most of the compiler work (funny, Steve 
> Johnson and I were talking about some of that work last night at the 
> UNIX50 party last night).  tjt wrote the 68K assembler ward's folks 
> used.  I don't remember where the Z8000 assembler came, but I'm petty 
> sure that the Intel assembler and some of the tools other John had 
> brought back from his summers in MH.
> 
> I think (but don't know for sure) the Intel 8086 assembler was done at 
> AT&T first.  IIRC it may have come out of Dale's group in Columbus.   I 
> do know Dale's group had done a Z80 C Compiler using the Ritchie 
> Compiler at some point in 1978 timeframe (and at one time I had, but can 
> not seem to find it, in my archives).
> 
> When Intel released the 386, I believe the AT&T 8086 assembler was 
> updated for the new 32 instructions; although who did that/where was 
> done, I'm not sure.
> 
> Steve is probably the best source for most of this as he managed the 
> team in Summit doing the different AT&T front and back ends when they 
> tried to centralize the compiler work for UNIX.
> 
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:48 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com 
> <mailto:imp@bsdimp.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>     On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 10:31 AM Clem cole <clemc@ccc.com
>     <mailto:clemc@ccc.com>> wrote:
> 
>         By the time of 4.2 the switch from the  Ritchie and Johnson
>         compilers at UCB had begun.  Remember the primary output of Rms
>         at that point was emacs and gcc.
> 
>         CSRG wanted the different backends for C.   ThAts it.  Besides
>         the vax, Rms had done 68000 and 386 back ends then.
> 
>         With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid
>         Interactive Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code
>         to a 386 ps/2 and an Intel reference system that used an ISA
>         bus.  This would be eventually released in source at the 386
>         port from AT&T.   As part of the contract summit supplied the
>         compiler
> 
>         I know the AT&T assembler with it’s backwards syntax from Intel
>         was done before rms did his.  He was compatible with the summit
>         assembler.  I don’t remember who’s 386 backend came out first. 
>         I think is was the summit compiler but you needed a system v
>         license which UCB did not have. 
> 
> 
>     There's also a fair amount of work at MIT to do Intel code
>     generation for 8086 (small mode) that was extended by Queens College
>     London (I think, I gotta grab the tapes again) to do large mode.
>     I've run into this looking for a compiler for the Venix source
>     restoration project I've been tilting at. I found those based on a
>     cryptic comment I found somewhere online about the tech behind Venix
>     that wasn't from AT&T. I don't know if ISC started with them as a
>     base or not, nor really how the MIT compilers came about, but they
>     claim to be PCC based somehow. Don't know if this helps you on your
>     quest... BTW, I found these when I found the latest pcc-restoration
>     sources didn't have a working i86 backend anymore (there was once
>     one for Minux, but when I built it I couldn't get it to generate
>     sensible code at all).
> 
>     Warner
> 
>         Clem
> 
>         Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost
>         but not quite.
> 
>         On Jul 11, 2019, at 8:50 AM, Jason Stevens
>         <jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com
>         <mailto:jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com>> wrote:
> 
>>         That would make sense.   I was able to find some info on PCC2 here
>>
>>         http://doc.cat-v.org/unix/unix-before-berkeley/
>>
>>         I'm guessing along with the adoption of emacs the csrg must
>>         have been further gnu synergy...  Or maybe PCC2 just wasn't
>>         available outside of the labs?
>>
>>         Or maybe by '88 gcc was already usurping many of the c
>>         compilers of the era.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>         On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:37 PM +0800, "Clem cole"
>>         <clemc@ccc.com <mailto:clemc@ccc.com>> wrote:
>>
>>             I believe the pcc/386 came out of Steve Johnson team at
>>             Summit with the PCC2 work.
>>
>>             Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be
>>             almost but not quite.
>>
>>             On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Jason Stevens
>>             <jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com
>>             <mailto:jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com>> wrote:
>>
>>>             Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from?
>>>
>>>             __ __
>>>
>>>             While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it
>>>             seems that everything was built with GCC…
>>>
>>>             Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90?  It seems
>>>             after the rapid demise of the Tahoe/Harris
>>>
>>>             HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC?____
>>>
>>>             __ __
>>>
>>>             Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC?  I’ve
>>>             been tracing through some____
>>>
>>>             strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to
>>>             include some bits from____
>>>
>>>             Reno to get diropen to actually work.  I would imagine
>>>             there ought to have been some____
>>>
>>>             platform exercise code to make sure things were actually
>>>             working instead of say____
>>>
>>>             building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few
>>>             hours to make sure____
>>>
>>>             its stable enough.
>>>

-- 
voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer@technologists.com
fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
  2019-07-11 19:39           ` Charles H Sauer
@ 2019-07-12  0:14             ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2019-07-12  0:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Charles H Sauer; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 305 bytes --]

On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 3:40 PM Charles H Sauer <sauer@technologists.com>
wrote:

> I assume AIX/386 used pcc, but Clem likely knows for sure.
>
I never knew it to be otherwise.  We certainly started the AT&T tools and I
don't think we changed anything on that front.   AFAIK: AIX/370 was the
same.

Clem

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
  2019-07-11 16:50       ` A. P. Garcia
  2019-07-11 16:54         ` Clem Cole
@ 2019-07-12  3:44         ` Michael Parson
  2019-07-17  7:37         ` [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: " emanuel stiebler
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Michael Parson @ 2019-07-12  3:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 2019-07-11 11:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
> 
> <snip>
>> 
>> With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid 
>> Interactive Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code to a 
>> 386 ps/2 and an Intel reference system that used an ISA bus.  This 
>> would be eventually released in source at the 386 port from AT&T.   As 
>> part of the contract summit supplied the compiler
>> 
> <snip>
> 
> Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
> called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...

ISC was acquired by Eastman Kodak in 1988, who eventually sold 
Interactive Unix to Sun in 1991.

-- 
Michael Parson
Pflugerville, TX
KF5LGQ


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re:  PCC for the i386
  2019-07-11 16:50       ` A. P. Garcia
  2019-07-11 16:54         ` Clem Cole
  2019-07-12  3:44         ` Michael Parson
@ 2019-07-17  7:37         ` " emanuel stiebler
  2019-07-17  8:10           ` arnold
  2019-07-18  0:04           ` [TUHS] BSD/386 (was: Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386) Greg 'groggy' Lehey
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: emanuel stiebler @ 2019-07-17  7:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: A. P. Garcia, Clem cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

> Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
> called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...

"Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than.
Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ...

Cheers



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re:  PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17  7:37         ` [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: " emanuel stiebler
@ 2019-07-17  8:10           ` arnold
  2019-07-17  9:28             ` Arrigo Triulzi
                               ` (2 more replies)
  2019-07-18  0:04           ` [TUHS] BSD/386 (was: Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386) Greg 'groggy' Lehey
  1 sibling, 3 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2019-07-17  8:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emu, clemc, a.phillip.garcia; +Cc: tuhs

emanuel stiebler <emu@e-bbes.com> wrote:

> On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>
> > Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
> > called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...
>
> "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than.
> Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ...
>
> Cheers
>

Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner.
I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the
time Solaris 2.x came along.

And, I *do* remember ESIX. We used it for our product at a startup
company I worked for. Initially System V R3 based, IIRC, and then
eventually SVR4; I think we saw an improvement moving to the
BSD fast file system.

Arnold

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re:  PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17  8:10           ` arnold
@ 2019-07-17  9:28             ` Arrigo Triulzi
  2019-07-17 10:09               ` Jason Stevens
                                 ` (4 more replies)
  2019-07-17 14:15             ` Clem Cole
  2019-07-17 15:11             ` Larry McVoy
  2 siblings, 5 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Arrigo Triulzi @ 2019-07-17  9:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: arnold; +Cc: tuhs

On 17 Jul 2019, at 10:10, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> 
> emanuel stiebler <emu@e-bbes.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
>>> called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...
>> 
>> "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than.
>> Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ...
>> 
>> Cheers
>> 
> 
> Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner.
> I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the
> time Solaris 2.x came along.
> 
> And, I *do* remember ESIX. We used it for our product at a startup
> company I worked for. Initially System V R3 based, IIRC, and then
> eventually SVR4; I think we saw an improvement moving to the
> BSD fast file system.

Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..).

I am rather saddened by the fact that there is so much about all the Unix (and not only Unix) history of computing in the USA and so very little in Europe. I wouldn’t even know where to start, to be honest, all I have as a history is the Italian side from my father and his other mad friends and colleagues in Milan. So little of it is recorded, never mind written down.

Arrigo


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re:  PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17  9:28             ` Arrigo Triulzi
@ 2019-07-17 10:09               ` Jason Stevens
  2019-07-17 10:42               ` emanuel stiebler
                                 ` (3 subsequent siblings)
  4 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Jason Stevens @ 2019-07-17 10:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Arrigo Triulzi, arnold; +Cc: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2257 bytes --]

The only non American one I was aware of came from Brazil, TROPIX.
http://allegro.nce.ufrj.br/tropix/index.html

I’d written a small thing about it here
https://virtuallyfun.com/wordpress/2009/06/18/tropix/

I’ve seen mention of something out of Sweden, although nothing concrete on the name.

There is also Демос/DEMOS the BSD code that had been stolen during the cold war, and ported to various Soviet machines & localized.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Arrigo Triulzi
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2019 6:01 PM
To: arnold@skeeve.com
Cc: tuhs@tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386

On 17 Jul 2019, at 10:10, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> 
> emanuel stiebler <emu@e-bbes.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
>>> called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...
>> 
>> "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than.
>> Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ...
>> 
>> Cheers
>> 
> 
> Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner.
> I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the
> time Solaris 2.x came along.
> 
> And, I *do* remember ESIX. We used it for our product at a startup
> company I worked for. Initially System V R3 based, IIRC, and then
> eventually SVR4; I think we saw an improvement moving to the
> BSD fast file system.

Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..).

I am rather saddened by the fact that there is so much about all the Unix (and not only Unix) history of computing in the USA and so very little in Europe. I wouldn’t even know where to start, to be honest, all I have as a history is the Italian side from my father and his other mad friends and colleagues in Milan. So little of it is recorded, never mind written down.

Arrigo


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17  9:28             ` Arrigo Triulzi
  2019-07-17 10:09               ` Jason Stevens
@ 2019-07-17 10:42               ` emanuel stiebler
  2019-07-17 15:40                 ` Adam Thornton
  2019-07-17 12:32               ` Ben Greenfield via TUHS
                                 ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  4 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread
From: emanuel stiebler @ 2019-07-17 10:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Arrigo Triulzi, arnold; +Cc: tuhs

On 2019-07-17 11:28, Arrigo Triulzi wrote:

> Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..).

In Germany, there was MUNIX (sometimes called "Münchener UNIX ;-) )
The company was PCS, they had the funny idea of replacing the PDP11 or
VAX board on the Q-Bus with Motorolas m68k hardware. So you still could
use your old peripherals (tape, drives, printers, etc.) with a new CPU,
running UNIX ...


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re:  PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17  9:28             ` Arrigo Triulzi
  2019-07-17 10:09               ` Jason Stevens
  2019-07-17 10:42               ` emanuel stiebler
@ 2019-07-17 12:32               ` Ben Greenfield via TUHS
  2019-07-17 12:50                 ` Dagobert Michelsen
  2019-07-17 14:41                 ` Clem Cole
  2019-07-17 14:34               ` Clem Cole
  2019-07-17 22:48               ` Chris Hanson
  4 siblings, 2 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Ben Greenfield via TUHS @ 2019-07-17 12:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Arrigo Triulzi, The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2326 bytes --]



> On Jul 17, 2019, at 5:28 AM, Arrigo Triulzi <arrigo@alchemistowl.org> wrote:
> 
> On 17 Jul 2019, at 10:10, arnold@skeeve.com <mailto:arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
>> 
>> emanuel stiebler <emu@e-bbes.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
>>>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
>>>> called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...
>>> 
>>> "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than.
>>> Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ...
>>> 
>>> Cheers
>>> 
>> 
>> Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner.
>> I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the
>> time Solaris 2.x came along.
>> 
>> And, I *do* remember ESIX. We used it for our product at a startup
>> company I worked for. Initially System V R3 based, IIRC, and then
>> eventually SVR4; I think we saw an improvement moving to the
>> BSD fast file system.
> 
> Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..).

I know that it didn’t run Unix but I believe Nixdorf Computer was the large computer company at that time.

https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/memory-storage/8/264/1115

https://www.hnf.de/en/permanent-exhibition/exhibition-areas/nixdorf-pioneer-of-decentralized-data-processing/the-products-of-nixdorf-computer-ag.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixdorf_Computer

> 
> I am rather saddened by the fact that there is so much about all the Unix (and not only Unix) history of computing in the USA and so very little in Europe. I wouldn’t even know where to start, to be honest, all I have as a history is the Italian side from my father and his other mad friends and colleagues in Milan. So little of it is recorded, never mind written down.

Maybe here.

http://www.technikum29.de/en/

Let me know what you find out regarding the Nixdorf 820. I happen to have my friends dad’s old one…

Keep Digging,

Ben


> 
> Arrigo


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re:  PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17 12:32               ` Ben Greenfield via TUHS
@ 2019-07-17 12:50                 ` Dagobert Michelsen
  2019-07-17 13:38                   ` Arrigo Triulzi
  2019-07-17 14:41                 ` Clem Cole
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread
From: Dagobert Michelsen @ 2019-07-17 12:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ben Greenfield; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Hi,

Am 17.07.2019 um 14:32 schrieb Ben Greenfield via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>:
> On Jul 17, 2019, at 5:28 AM, Arrigo Triulzi <arrigo@alchemistowl.org> wrote:
>> Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..).
> 
> I know that it didn’t run Unix but I believe Nixdorf Computer was the large computer company at that time.

There was also Sinix from Siemens that was derived from Reliant Unix:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SINIX
  https://web.archive.org/web/20120324121229/http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/siemens/rmunix

Unfortunately I didn’t have had much exposure to it and don’t own any install media or such :-/


Best regards

  — Dago

-- 
"You don't become great by trying to be great, you become great by wanting to do something,
and then doing it so hard that you become great in the process." - xkcd #896


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re:  PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17 12:50                 ` Dagobert Michelsen
@ 2019-07-17 13:38                   ` Arrigo Triulzi
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Arrigo Triulzi @ 2019-07-17 13:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dagobert Michelsen; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On 17 Jul 2019, at 14:50, Dagobert Michelsen <dam@opencsw.org> wrote:
> Am 17.07.2019 um 14:32 schrieb Ben Greenfield via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>:
>> On Jul 17, 2019, at 5:28 AM, Arrigo Triulzi <arrigo@alchemistowl.org> wrote:
>>> Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..).
>> 
>> I know that it didn’t run Unix but I believe Nixdorf Computer was the large computer company at that time.
> 
> There was also Sinix from Siemens that was derived from Reliant Unix:
>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SINIX
>  https://web.archive.org/web/20120324121229/http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/siemens/rmunix
> 
> Unfortunately I didn’t have had much exposure to it and don’t own any install media or such :-/

Yes, indeed there were many, in Germany, France, Spain, Italy, etc. but, unlike the USA, there is nobody apparently trying to keep it all together.

Is the Deutsche Museum in Munich doing something about German IT history like the Computer History Museum in California?

In the UK there’s the Historical Computing group within the BCS who publish a frequent newsletter with their work, they have exhibits at Bletchley Park and they took it upon them to write the histories of the Lyons, ICL, AMT, Inmos, etc.

I was recently trying to find something about Olivetti’s Unix: Olivetti re-branded the AT&T 3B2 and AT&T re-branded their beautiful M24 on which I briefly used Xenix for the 8086 (I *think* it was branded Xenix) but it was just a US UNIX version which spoke English.

Arrigo


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17  8:10           ` arnold
  2019-07-17  9:28             ` Arrigo Triulzi
@ 2019-07-17 14:15             ` Clem Cole
  2019-07-17 15:11             ` Larry McVoy
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2019-07-17 14:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Aharon Robbins; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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RR and the ISC products were different.  RR was done in Billerica, MA and
ran a variant of SunOS [FWIW: some of the RR guys came to Stellar work on
the HW team].

ISC did the 386 port for Intel/ATT/IBM much earlier than that.   Later, as
was pointed out, Sun ended up with the IP when they bought it from Kodak.

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 4:10 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:

> emanuel stiebler <emu@e-bbes.com> wrote:
>
> > On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
> > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
> > > called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...
> >
> > "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than.
> > Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ...
> >
> > Cheers
> >
>
> Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner.
> I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the
> time Solaris 2.x came along.
>
> And, I *do* remember ESIX. We used it for our product at a startup
> company I worked for. Initially System V R3 based, IIRC, and then
> eventually SVR4; I think we saw an improvement moving to the
> BSD fast file system.
>
> Arnold
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17  9:28             ` Arrigo Triulzi
                                 ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2019-07-17 12:32               ` Ben Greenfield via TUHS
@ 2019-07-17 14:34               ` Clem Cole
  2019-07-17 23:22                 ` Bakul Shah
  2019-07-17 22:48               ` Chris Hanson
  4 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2019-07-17 14:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Arrigo Triulzi; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2288 bytes --]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 5:28 AM Arrigo Triulzi <arrigo@alchemistowl.org>
wrote:

> Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the
> Unix-like operating systems?

Yes, I talk about it in my paper in the digital release of volume *CNAM
Historical Booklets* including your respective texts.

http://technique-societe.cnam.fr/la-recherche-sur-les-systemes-des-pivots-dans-l-histoire-de-l-informatique-ii-ii-988170.kjsp?RH=cdhte



Note the web site is in French, and all the papers are A4 format, some are
French some are in English (like mine own).   [Send me email off line if
you want a copy of the paper and don't want try to get the whole thing].



> For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on
> Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it
> for no mare than about two hours..).
>
Close, not quite.  Contemporaries but not the same.

Chorus was a C++ rewrite of Gien's Pascal based 'SOL' systems [Gien M.
(1983). “The SOL Operating System”, USENIX Association, 1983, Proceedings
of the Summer ‘83 USENIX Conference, Toronto, Canada, July, 1983, Pages
75-78.]



>
> I am rather saddened by the fact that there is so much about all the Unix
> (and not only Unix) history of computing in the USA and so very little in
> Europe.

Fair, although not completely true.  USENIX and it's European sisters did a
number of conferences back in the day.  If we missed, other than Australia,
we probably did less in Asia that we could have.   The truth was that the
European's wanted to be published in the ACM or USENIX pubs (just like most
American's and Brits wanted to publish in the Swiss and German journals for
Physics and Chemistry in the 30s and 40s).

But I think a lot of us in the community, certainly were aware of the lot
of cool things happening 'across the pond.'    Please don't sell yourself
and your non-North American sisters and brothers so short.



> I wouldn’t even know where to start, to be honest, all I have as a history
> is the Italian side from my father and his other mad friends and colleagues
> in Milan. So little of it is recorded, never mind written down.
>
That's a shame to hear.  I hope we can find more of it.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17 12:32               ` Ben Greenfield via TUHS
  2019-07-17 12:50                 ` Dagobert Michelsen
@ 2019-07-17 14:41                 ` Clem Cole
  2019-07-17 15:08                   ` Ben Greenfield via TUHS
  2019-07-17 16:04                   ` William Pechter
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2019-07-17 14:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ben Greenfield; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 676 bytes --]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 8:39 AM Ben Greenfield via TUHS <
tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:

>
> I know that it didn’t run Unix but I believe Nixdorf Computer was the
> large computer company at that time.
>
Both Nixdorf and Siemens were heavy into UNIX.  Both were founders of OSF.
  Nixdorf OEM'ed a couple of machines from US firms, as well as making
their own.   Siemens and Philips both trended to make their own systems.
IIRC Philips was mostly in the AT&T Camp at the time.  Olivetti was
definitely since one of the original 386 systems AT&T tried to sell was
their PC (in fact was one of systems ISC used for the original 386 UNIX
port - supplied by AT&T).

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17 14:41                 ` Clem Cole
@ 2019-07-17 15:08                   ` Ben Greenfield via TUHS
  2019-07-17 21:09                     ` Dagobert Michelsen
  2019-07-17 16:04                   ` William Pechter
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread
From: Ben Greenfield via TUHS @ 2019-07-17 15:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1088 bytes --]

Yes, I should have been more careful with my phrasing.

To be more clear the innovations developed by Heinz Nixdorf in the early days of the company did not contribute to Unix but was it also concept and worthy of study.

After Heinz died the company lost direction and was purchased by Siemens.





> On Jul 17, 2019, at 10:41 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 8:39 AM Ben Greenfield via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org <mailto:tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>> wrote:
> 
> I know that it didn’t run Unix but I believe Nixdorf Computer was the large computer company at that time.
> Both Nixdorf and Siemens were heavy into UNIX.  Both were founders of OSF.   Nixdorf OEM'ed a couple of machines from US firms, as well as making their own.   Siemens and Philips both trended to make their own systems.   IIRC Philips was mostly in the AT&T Camp at the time.  Olivetti was definitely since one of the original 386 systems AT&T tried to sell was their PC (in fact was one of systems ISC used for the original 386 UNIX port - supplied by AT&T).


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re:  PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17  8:10           ` arnold
  2019-07-17  9:28             ` Arrigo Triulzi
  2019-07-17 14:15             ` Clem Cole
@ 2019-07-17 15:11             ` Larry McVoy
  2019-07-17 15:31               ` Warner Losh
                                 ` (2 more replies)
  2 siblings, 3 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2019-07-17 15:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: arnold; +Cc: tuhs

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 02:10:14AM -0600, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> emanuel stiebler <emu@e-bbes.com> wrote:
> 
> > On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
> > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
> > > called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...
> >
> > "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than.
> > Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ...
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> 
> Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner.
> I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the
> time Solaris 2.x came along.

Yep, can confirm.  I was a fan but the powers that were at Sun at the
time just didn't want competition for SPARC.  Which was sort of silly,
a 386 was nowhere near as fast as the SPARC chips of the day, that was
when RISC actually made sense.  But perhaps they had a crystal ball
and could see that x86 was going to be as fast or faster down the
road?  I tend to doubt it, they really looked down on the 386.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17 15:11             ` Larry McVoy
@ 2019-07-17 15:31               ` Warner Losh
  2019-07-17 15:36               ` Jason Stevens
  2019-07-24  1:04               ` Lyndon Nerenberg
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2019-07-17 15:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1909 bytes --]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 9:11 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 02:10:14AM -0600, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> > emanuel stiebler <emu@e-bbes.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
> > > > called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...
> > >
> > > "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than.
> > > Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ...
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> >
> > Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner.
> > I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the
> > time Solaris 2.x came along.
>
> Yep, can confirm.  I was a fan but the powers that were at Sun at the
> time just didn't want competition for SPARC.  Which was sort of silly,
> a 386 was nowhere near as fast as the SPARC chips of the day, that was
> when RISC actually made sense.  But perhaps they had a crystal ball
> and could see that x86 was going to be as fast or faster down the
> road?  I tend to doubt it, they really looked down on the 386.
>

And wasn't it a weird version of SunOS? Support for the Roadrunners was
only in a couple of releases too (4.0, 4.0.1 and 4.0.2 only). Most of the
sunos sources that have fallen off a truck on the internet are 4.0.3 and
newer, so there's no i386 support in them. I used a Sun386/250 at
Wollongong to do testing. Mostly it ran X and was one of the available X
workstations in the testing lab since it was weird enough people didn't
want to use it (though the Sony News box next to it might also have come in
a close second for weird).

The wikipedia page says there was a Sun486 (code named apache) that was
designed and a few built, but that was then cancelled before release.

Warner

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re:  PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17 15:11             ` Larry McVoy
  2019-07-17 15:31               ` Warner Losh
@ 2019-07-17 15:36               ` Jason Stevens
  2019-07-17 16:56                 ` Larry McVoy
  2019-07-24  1:04               ` Lyndon Nerenberg
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread
From: Jason Stevens @ 2019-07-17 15:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy, arnold; +Cc: tuhs

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Funny you mention that, I recently pulled this ad from SUN:

https://books.google.com.hk/books/content?id=GTwEAAAAMBAJ&hl=en-US&rview=1&pg=PT8&img=1&zoom=3&sig=ACfU3U0g2GS1KStkA6HXup3UG31UQdNcwg&w=1280

These days, there’s absolutely no limit to the things you can add to your PCs. Coprocessors. VGA cards. Large scale monitors. Network cards.
But no matter how many thousands of dollars you pour into your PCs, they still can’t give you what you get with every Sun workstation. The screaming-hot performance. The multi-tasking. The high-resolution graphics. And the built-in networking.
And now, we’re introducing a new workstation that makes all the shortcomings of your PCs even more obvious.
SPARCstation™ IPC.
At $8,995*, it’s the lowest cost, full-color RISC workstation in the world. By far. In fact, it’s about the same price as a high-performance 386 PC. But just look at the difference….


Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Larry McVoy
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2019 11:11 PM
To: arnold@skeeve.com
Cc: tuhs@tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 02:10:14AM -0600, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> emanuel stiebler <emu@e-bbes.com> wrote:
> 
> > On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
> > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
> > > called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...
> >
> > "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than.
> > Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ...
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> 
> Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner.
> I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the
> time Solaris 2.x came along.

Yep, can confirm.  I was a fan but the powers that were at Sun at the
time just didn't want competition for SPARC.  Which was sort of silly,
a 386 was nowhere near as fast as the SPARC chips of the day, that was
when RISC actually made sense.  But perhaps they had a crystal ball
and could see that x86 was going to be as fast or faster down the
road?  I tend to doubt it, they really looked down on the 386.


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17 10:42               ` emanuel stiebler
@ 2019-07-17 15:40                 ` Adam Thornton
  2019-07-17 18:01                   ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread
From: Adam Thornton @ 2019-07-17 15:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emanuel stiebler; +Cc: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 854 bytes --]



> On Jul 17, 2019, at 3:42 AM, emanuel stiebler <emu@e-bbes.com> wrote:
> 
> On 2019-07-17 11:28, Arrigo Triulzi wrote:
> 
>> Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..).
> 
> In Germany, there was MUNIX (sometimes called "Münchener UNIX ;-) )
> The company was PCS, they had the funny idea of replacing the PDP11 or
> VAX board on the Q-Bus with Motorolas m68k hardware. So you still could
> use your old peripherals (tape, drives, printers, etc.) with a new CPU,
> running UNIX ...
> 

….see also the current http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone <http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone>

Adam

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17 14:41                 ` Clem Cole
  2019-07-17 15:08                   ` Ben Greenfield via TUHS
@ 2019-07-17 16:04                   ` William Pechter
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: William Pechter @ 2019-07-17 16:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole, TUHS

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1244 bytes --]

Don't forget Siemens-Nixdorf was a major reseller of Pyramid OS/x and DC/OSx (SysV R4) and eventually they purchased the remnants of Pyramid after AT&T (a major Pyramid shop and OEM) bought NCR and stopped using/selling Pyramid when DC./OSx was just appearing on the Pyramid MIServer MIPS R3000 boxes. 

Bill

Sent from pechter@gmail.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com>
To: Ben Greenfield <ben@cogs.com>
Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <tuhs@tuhs.org>
Sent: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:42
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 8:39 AM Ben Greenfield via TUHS <
tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:

>
> I know that it didn’t run Unix but I believe Nixdorf Computer was the
> large computer company at that time.
>
Both Nixdorf and Siemens were heavy into UNIX.  Both were founders of OSF.
  Nixdorf OEM'ed a couple of machines from US firms, as well as making
their own.   Siemens and Philips both trended to make their own systems.
IIRC Philips was mostly in the AT&T Camp at the time.  Olivetti was
definitely since one of the original 386 systems AT&T tried to sell was
their PC (in fact was one of systems ISC used for the original 386 UNIX
port - supplied by AT&T).

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re:  PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17 15:36               ` Jason Stevens
@ 2019-07-17 16:56                 ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2019-07-17 16:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jason Stevens; +Cc: tuhs

Wow, those came out when I was there, I've done a ton of work on those
machines.  The first Sun cluster was built from them.  But I've never
seen that ad before, it's classic Sun.

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 11:36:43PM +0800, Jason Stevens wrote:
> Funny you mention that, I recently pulled this ad from SUN:
> 
> https://books.google.com.hk/books/content?id=GTwEAAAAMBAJ&hl=en-US&rview=1&pg=PT8&img=1&zoom=3&sig=ACfU3U0g2GS1KStkA6HXup3UG31UQdNcwg&w=1280
> 
> These days, there???s absolutely no limit to the things you can add to your PCs. Coprocessors. VGA cards. Large scale monitors. Network cards.
> But no matter how many thousands of dollars you pour into your PCs, they still can???t give you what you get with every Sun workstation. The screaming-hot performance. The multi-tasking. The high-resolution graphics. And the built-in networking.
> And now, we???re introducing a new workstation that makes all the shortcomings of your PCs even more obvious.
> SPARCstation??? IPC.
> At $8,995*, it???s the lowest cost, full-color RISC workstation in the world. By far. In fact, it???s about the same price as a high-performance 386 PC. But just look at the difference???.
> 
> 
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
> 
> From: Larry McVoy
> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2019 11:11 PM
> To: arnold@skeeve.com
> Cc: tuhs@tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
> 
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 02:10:14AM -0600, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> > emanuel stiebler <emu@e-bbes.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
> > > > called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...
> > >
> > > "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than.
> > > Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ...
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > 
> > Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner.
> > I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the
> > time Solaris 2.x came along.
> 
> Yep, can confirm.  I was a fan but the powers that were at Sun at the
> time just didn't want competition for SPARC.  Which was sort of silly,
> a 386 was nowhere near as fast as the SPARC chips of the day, that was
> when RISC actually made sense.  But perhaps they had a crystal ball
> and could see that x86 was going to be as fast or faster down the
> road?  I tend to doubt it, they really looked down on the 386.
> 

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17 15:40                 ` Adam Thornton
@ 2019-07-17 18:01                   ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2019-07-17 18:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Adam Thornton; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 792 bytes --]

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 11:40 AM Adam Thornton <athornton@gmail.com> wrote:

> ….see also the current http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone
>
Yeah - these boards are pretty cool.   I think the LCM+L was using either
these or something like them.   The don't use real rotating storage anymore
if they can help it.

[Actually, the coolest thing I saw last week was the core memory
replacement they made for the CDC-6x00 systems.   The cores got too
unreliable.  So they made a board and lucite box that that form and fit
compatible.   They told me a neat story.  It seems after they announced to
the world that they had made it, somebody in the US DoD asked about
availability -- seems some old CDC gear is still in use [which seems like
an application for simh to me].

Clem

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17 15:08                   ` Ben Greenfield via TUHS
@ 2019-07-17 21:09                     ` Dagobert Michelsen
  2019-07-18  8:56                       ` Arrigo Triulzi
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread
From: Dagobert Michelsen @ 2019-07-17 21:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ben Greenfield; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Hi,

Am 17.07.2019 um 17:08 schrieb Ben Greenfield via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>:
> To be more clear the innovations developed by Heinz Nixdorf in the early days of the company did not contribute to Unix but was it also concept and worthy of study.
> 
> After Heinz died the company lost direction and was purchased by Siemens.

Indeed. There is btw a very nice collection of european mainframes presented
in a collection at the „Computermuseum“ at the University of Applied Sciences
in Kiel (sorry, webpages in German only):
  https://www.fh-kiel.de/index.php?id=computermuseum
  https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computermuseum_der_Fachhochschule_Kiel
The collection of mainframes is quite large and they have a good collection of Zuse
machines (although they lack a working Z1 which is presented in Berlin and if you are
lucky is explained by Horst Zuse, the son of Konrad Zuse).

If you ever happen to be in northern Germany and want to give it a try let me know
and I’ll make sure you get a tour in english :-)


Best regards

  — Dago

-- 
"You don't become great by trying to be great, you become great by wanting to do something,
and then doing it so hard that you become great in the process." - xkcd #896


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re:  PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17  9:28             ` Arrigo Triulzi
                                 ` (3 preceding siblings ...)
  2019-07-17 14:34               ` Clem Cole
@ 2019-07-17 22:48               ` Chris Hanson
  2019-07-18  8:39                 ` Wesley Parish
  4 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread
From: Chris Hanson @ 2019-07-17 22:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Arrigo Triulzi; +Cc: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 243 bytes --]

On Jul 17, 2019, at 2:28 AM, Arrigo Triulzi <arrigo@alchemistowl.org> wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems?

Among others, there is of course Minix.

  -- Chris


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17 14:34               ` Clem Cole
@ 2019-07-17 23:22                 ` Bakul Shah
  2019-07-18  0:04                   ` Clem cole
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread
From: Bakul Shah @ 2019-07-17 23:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Jul 17, 2019, at 7:34 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 5:28 AM Arrigo Triulzi <arrigo@alchemistowl.org> wrote: 
> > For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..).
> Close, not quite.  Contemporaries but not the same.
> 
> Chorus was a C++ rewrite of Gien's Pascal based 'SOL' systems [Gien M. (1983). “The SOL Operating System”, USENIX Association, 1983, Proceedings of the Summer ‘83 USENIX Conference, Toronto, Canada, July, 1983, Pages 75-78.]

A good paper on Chorus:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/eab3/b28bebdc202d9c5e2354731bebadf0872aac.pdf

Apparently Chorus was not "unix" until the SOL team joined them in 1984!
Its nucleus seem very much like a microkernel.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] BSD/386 (was: Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re:  PCC for the i386)
  2019-07-17  7:37         ` [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: " emanuel stiebler
  2019-07-17  8:10           ` arnold
@ 2019-07-18  0:04           ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
  2019-07-18  0:16             ` Richard Salz
  2019-07-18 15:01             ` Chet Ramey
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey @ 2019-07-18  0:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emanuel stiebler; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1998 bytes --]

On Wednesday, 17 July 2019 at  9:37:44 +0200, emanuel stiebler wrote:
> On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>
>> Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
>> called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...
>
> "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than.

I used it in the early 1990s (Interactive UNIX/386, based on System V,
IIRC; there were other versions with different lineage).  My
recollections of it were less positive than yours, maybe only by
comparison.  Installation (hundreds of small components, each with
their own license key) was a nightmare.

In that connection, and by way of comparison, I'm surprised that
nobody has mentioned BSDI's BSD/386 yet, which grew up intimately
related to Jolitz' 386BSD.  Jolitz worked with BSDI until (the
beginning of?) December 1991, when he left due to disagreement with
BSDI's licence model, apparently destroying all his work.

I started using BSD/386 in mid-March 1992, a couple of days before
Jolitz released 386BSD.  In contrast to 386BSD, it was solid,
installed easily, and cost $1000 (with source; I think there were
cheaper binary-only options).  It blew Interactive UNIX out of the
water.  This was a Beta, so I sent reports which I have published at
http://www.lemis.com/grog/diary-mar1992.php#18

It's a pity that BSD/386 (later BSD/OS) went away, though later we
incorporated some parts of the kernel into FreeBSD (with BSDI's
permission and blessing, of course; see
http://www.lemis.com/grog/diary-jun2000.php).  In contrast to the
other early offerings, it Just Worked.  But the idea of paying for
operating systems seemed to have passed its use-by date.

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17 23:22                 ` Bakul Shah
@ 2019-07-18  0:04                   ` Clem cole
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Clem cole @ 2019-07-18  0:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bakul Shah; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

It is an uK.  I have a complete set of doc but I don’t think I have the code at this point. Fyi AT&T was supposed to use Chorus for SVR5 but it never shipped. The chorus folks opened an office in Portland Or.  iirc Michel Gien moved out there for a bit.  [We were working for both OSF and ATT at Locus.  Fun times.  ]

Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 

> On Jul 17, 2019, at 7:22 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul@bitblocks.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Jul 17, 2019, at 7:34 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 5:28 AM Arrigo Triulzi <arrigo@alchemistowl.org> wrote: 
>>> For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..).
>> Close, not quite.  Contemporaries but not the same.
>> 
>> Chorus was a C++ rewrite of Gien's Pascal based 'SOL' systems [Gien M. (1983). “The SOL Operating System”, USENIX Association, 1983, Proceedings of the Summer ‘83 USENIX Conference, Toronto, Canada, July, 1983, Pages 75-78.]
> 
> A good paper on Chorus:
> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/eab3/b28bebdc202d9c5e2354731bebadf0872aac.pdf
> 
> Apparently Chorus was not "unix" until the SOL team joined them in 1984!
> Its nucleus seem very much like a microkernel.
> 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] BSD/386 (was: Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386)
  2019-07-18  0:04           ` [TUHS] BSD/386 (was: Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386) Greg 'groggy' Lehey
@ 2019-07-18  0:16             ` Richard Salz
  2019-07-18  1:08               ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
  2019-07-18 15:01             ` Chet Ramey
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread
From: Richard Salz @ 2019-07-18  0:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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BSD[Ii] got in trouble with AT&T for their sales number, which was
1-800-ITS-UNIX. I don't know if they ever got officially sued or not.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] BSD/386 (was: Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386)
  2019-07-18  0:16             ` Richard Salz
@ 2019-07-18  1:08               ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey @ 2019-07-18  1:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Richard Salz; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Wednesday, 17 July 2019 at 20:16:59 -0400, Richard Salz wrote:
> BSD[Ii] got in trouble with AT&T for their sales number, which was
> 1-800-ITS-UNIX.

Correct.

> I don't know if they ever got officially sued or not.

Not for that.  I think they got a "cease and desist" or whatever it's
called, and they changed their number.  They were, however, the main
group that got sued in the Unix wars, along with UCB, but not the free
BSDs.

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17 22:48               ` Chris Hanson
@ 2019-07-18  8:39                 ` Wesley Parish
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Wesley Parish @ 2019-07-18  8:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Chris Hanson; +Cc: tuhs

And Robert Switzer's Tunix as laid out in his Operating Systems: A
Practical Approach. Used the SysVR3 API iirc, as opposed to the 7th
Edition Minix of 1987.

Wesley Parish

On 7/18/19, Chris Hanson <cmhanson@eschatologist.net> wrote:
> On Jul 17, 2019, at 2:28 AM, Arrigo Triulzi <arrigo@alchemistowl.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the
>> Unix-like operating systems?
>
> Among others, there is of course Minix.
>
>   -- Chris
>
>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17 21:09                     ` Dagobert Michelsen
@ 2019-07-18  8:56                       ` Arrigo Triulzi
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Arrigo Triulzi @ 2019-07-18  8:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dagobert Michelsen; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On 17 Jul 2019, at 23:09, Dagobert Michelsen <dam@opencsw.org> wrote:
> Am 17.07.2019 um 17:08 schrieb Ben Greenfield via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>:
>> To be more clear the innovations developed by Heinz Nixdorf in the early days of the company did not contribute to Unix but was it also concept and worthy of study.
>> 
>> After Heinz died the company lost direction and was purchased by Siemens.
> 
> Indeed. There is btw a very nice collection of european mainframes presented
> in a collection at the „Computermuseum“ at the University of Applied Sciences
> in Kiel (sorry, webpages in German only):
>  https://www.fh-kiel.de/index.php?id=computermuseum
>  https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computermuseum_der_Fachhochschule_Kiel

Fantastic! Now not only should I visit Berlin but also Kiel and, in the meantime, I can get some sailing in! 

Arrigo


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] BSD/386 (was: Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386)
  2019-07-18  0:04           ` [TUHS] BSD/386 (was: Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386) Greg 'groggy' Lehey
  2019-07-18  0:16             ` Richard Salz
@ 2019-07-18 15:01             ` Chet Ramey
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Chet Ramey @ 2019-07-18 15:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey, emanuel stiebler
  Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On 7/17/19 8:04 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:

> I started using BSD/386 in mid-March 1992, a couple of days before
> Jolitz released 386BSD.  In contrast to 386BSD, it was solid,
> installed easily, and cost $1000 (with source; I think there were
> cheaper binary-only options).  It blew Interactive UNIX out of the
> water.  This was a Beta, so I sent reports which I have published at
> http://www.lemis.com/grog/diary-mar1992.php#18

Agreed. We used BSD/386 and BSD/OS pretty heavily at Case. We ran a
significant portion of the infrastructure services on it. It was
solid.

-- 
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
		 ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates
Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU    chet@case.edu    http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
  2019-07-17 15:11             ` Larry McVoy
  2019-07-17 15:31               ` Warner Losh
  2019-07-17 15:36               ` Jason Stevens
@ 2019-07-24  1:04               ` Lyndon Nerenberg
  2019-07-24  1:30                 ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-07-24 21:53                 ` Kevin Bowling
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Lyndon Nerenberg @ 2019-07-24  1:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

>> Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner.
>> I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the
>> time Solaris 2.x came along.

>Yep, can confirm.  I was a fan but the powers that were at Sun at the
>time just didn't want competition for SPARC.

I have vague memories of the Road Runner.  But I also recall, circa
1993, Sun was trying very hard not to sell a '386 port of Solaris that
I wanted to get my hands on.

At the time I was spinning up a brand new university campus.  We
were, as all academia were, $$$ constrained.  Windows was starting
to roll out, but the incoming academics wanted UNIX to run their
code on.  Sun had just leaked out a 386-based release, but was
hiding it from everyone.  At the front-end of the campus build, my
thoughts were to get this Intel version of SunOS running on the
Intel boxes that we knew we had to buy, anyway, because MSDOS and
Windows.

At the '93 Interop I quickly tracked down the Sun booth and started
nailing down all the booth critters to set up a conversation about
doing a campus-wide binary license of the 386 port.  Both booth
shitheads could not be bothered.  They only wanted to SPARC the
booth babes across the aisle.

Does anyone remember the name of that Sun release?  I've forgotten now.
Meanwhile, we signed up for a BSDi academic source license, and deployed
UNIX on every PC that hit the campus.

Sun did eventually show up, many months after the campus opening.  With a
"million dollar" donation.  It was a heap of mostly broken workstations
that they piled on the floor in the agora for a photo-op.  Same gig that
AT&T tried when they dumped the 3B4000 on us in Athabasca in 1990 ;-)

--lyndon


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
  2019-07-24  1:04               ` Lyndon Nerenberg
@ 2019-07-24  1:30                 ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-07-24 21:53                 ` Kevin Bowling
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-07-24  1:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 7/23/2019 9:04 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> At the '93 Interop I quickly tracked down the Sun booth and started
> nailing down all the booth critters to set up a conversation about
> doing a campus-wide binary license of the 386 port.  Both booth
> shitheads could not be bothered.  They only wanted to SPARC the
> booth babes across the aisle.
I can't help, aside from saying I'd love to get my hands on a '386 based 
SunOS...

But that statement has to be the most epic description of a conference 
I've ever read.

That, and using SPARC as a verb.

Well done ;)

art k.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
  2019-07-24  1:04               ` Lyndon Nerenberg
  2019-07-24  1:30                 ` Arthur Krewat
@ 2019-07-24 21:53                 ` Kevin Bowling
  2019-07-25 19:16                   ` Lyndon Nerenberg
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread
From: Kevin Bowling @ 2019-07-24 21:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lyndon Nerenberg; +Cc: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2074 bytes --]

Can you share any details or photos about that 3B?

Academia and cash strapped aren’t terms I’d tie together in my generation
in the US with all the loldebt and gilding.

On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 6:12 PM Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote:

> >> Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner.
> >> I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the
> >> time Solaris 2.x came along.
>
> >Yep, can confirm.  I was a fan but the powers that were at Sun at the
> >time just didn't want competition for SPARC.
>
> I have vague memories of the Road Runner.  But I also recall, circa
> 1993, Sun was trying very hard not to sell a '386 port of Solaris that
> I wanted to get my hands on.
>
> At the time I was spinning up a brand new university campus.  We
> were, as all academia were, $$$ constrained.  Windows was starting
> to roll out, but the incoming academics wanted UNIX to run their
> code on.  Sun had just leaked out a 386-based release, but was
> hiding it from everyone.  At the front-end of the campus build, my
> thoughts were to get this Intel version of SunOS running on the
> Intel boxes that we knew we had to buy, anyway, because MSDOS and
> Windows.
>
> At the '93 Interop I quickly tracked down the Sun booth and started
> nailing down all the booth critters to set up a conversation about
> doing a campus-wide binary license of the 386 port.  Both booth
> shitheads could not be bothered.  They only wanted to SPARC the
> booth babes across the aisle.
>
> Does anyone remember the name of that Sun release?  I've forgotten now.
> Meanwhile, we signed up for a BSDi academic source license, and deployed
> UNIX on every PC that hit the campus.
>
> Sun did eventually show up, many months after the campus opening.  With a
> "million dollar" donation.  It was a heap of mostly broken workstations
> that they piled on the floor in the agora for a photo-op.  Same gig that
> AT&T tried when they dumped the 3B4000 on us in Athabasca in 1990 ;-)
>
> --lyndon
>
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
  2019-07-24 21:53                 ` Kevin Bowling
@ 2019-07-25 19:16                   ` Lyndon Nerenberg
  2019-07-25 19:29                     ` [TUHS] AT&T 3b4000 (was Re: Old 386 Unix Versions) Kevin Bowling
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread
From: Lyndon Nerenberg @ 2019-07-25 19:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Kevin Bowling; +Cc: tuhs

Kevin Bowling writes:

> Can you share any details or photos about that 3B?

Nope.  The only pictures I had of the '4000 were from the night we
"decommissioned" it.  They were lost many moves ago.  But even if I
still had them I would not let them out in public, to protect the
guilty.

Which is a shame, because some of them were quite entertaining :-)

--lyndon

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] AT&T 3b4000 (was Re:  Old 386 Unix Versions)
  2019-07-25 19:16                   ` Lyndon Nerenberg
@ 2019-07-25 19:29                     ` Kevin Bowling
  2019-07-25 20:47                       ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread
From: Kevin Bowling @ 2019-07-25 19:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy, Lyndon Nerenberg; +Cc: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 669 bytes --]

ISTM the 4000 was one of the earlier UNIX clusters, very close to Locus in
time? Any pointers for more info would be appreciated, I don’t care if it
sucked it’s still interesting


On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 12:16 PM Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote:

> Kevin Bowling writes:
>
> > Can you share any details or photos about that 3B?
>
> Nope.  The only pictures I had of the '4000 were from the night we
> "decommissioned" it.  They were lost many moves ago.  But even if I
> still had them I would not let them out in public, to protect the
> guilty.
>
> Which is a shame, because some of them were quite entertaining :-)
>
> --lyndon
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] AT&T 3b4000 (was Re: Old 386 Unix Versions)
  2019-07-25 19:29                     ` [TUHS] AT&T 3b4000 (was Re: Old 386 Unix Versions) Kevin Bowling
@ 2019-07-25 20:47                       ` Clem Cole
  2019-07-26 18:18                         ` Seth J. Morabito
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2019-07-25 20:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Kevin Bowling; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1078 bytes --]

Yes, it was a full Single System Image (SSI) system -- one of the 3B4000's
SW architects was Tom Bishop, whom I'm still in contact (he's in the Austin
these days).  Those folk did a nice job.  FWIW:   When the 4000 project was
canceled in Indiana Hill, Tom joined us @ LCC to work on TNC.

On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 3:30 PM Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling@kev009.com>
wrote:

> ISTM the 4000 was one of the earlier UNIX clusters, very close to Locus in
> time? Any pointers for more info would be appreciated, I don’t care if it
> sucked it’s still interesting
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 12:16 PM Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> Kevin Bowling writes:
>>
>> > Can you share any details or photos about that 3B?
>>
>> Nope.  The only pictures I had of the '4000 were from the night we
>> "decommissioned" it.  They were lost many moves ago.  But even if I
>> still had them I would not let them out in public, to protect the
>> guilty.
>>
>> Which is a shame, because some of them were quite entertaining :-)
>>
>> --lyndon
>>
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] AT&T 3b4000 (was Re: Old 386 Unix Versions)
  2019-07-25 20:47                       ` Clem Cole
@ 2019-07-26 18:18                         ` Seth J. Morabito
  2019-07-26 19:24                           ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 51+ messages in thread
From: Seth J. Morabito @ 2019-07-26 18:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs; +Cc: tuhs


Clem Cole writes:

> Yes, it was a full Single System Image (SSI) system -- one of the 3B4000's
> SW architects was Tom Bishop, whom I'm still in contact (he's in the Austin
> these days).  Those folk did a nice job.  FWIW:   When the 4000 project was
> canceled in Indiana Hill, Tom joined us @ LCC to work on TNC.

This is of course extremeley relevant to my interests as well. Since
I've gotten the 3B2/400 emulator pretty much finished up (MAU, NI, CTC,
and PORTS are all working now), I'm turning my attention to trying to
emulate other 3B2 models, starting with the /600 and /1000 WE32200
systems.

The 3B4000 is an entirely different beast, of course, but I've seen
precious little documentation about it. I'd love to hear more from Tom
Bishop's history at Indian Hill, if he's willing to share!

-Seth
--
  Seth Morabito
  Poulsbo, WA, USA
  web@loomcom.com

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] BSD/386 (was: Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386)
@ 2019-07-26 18:40 Richard Tobin
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Richard Tobin @ 2019-07-26 18:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Richard Salz, Greg 'groggy' Lehey; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

> BSD[Ii] got in trouble with AT&T for their sales number, which was
> 1-800-ITS-UNIX. I don't know if they ever got officially sued or not.

There was a joke that MIT should have sued them too, for violating their
trademark on ITS.

-- Richard

-- 
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] AT&T 3b4000 (was Re: Old 386 Unix Versions)
  2019-07-26 18:18                         ` Seth J. Morabito
@ 2019-07-26 19:24                           ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 51+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2019-07-26 19:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Seth J. Morabito; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society, TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1034 bytes --]

No promises, but I did send him an email.

On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 2:24 PM Seth J. Morabito <web@loomcom.com> wrote:

>
> Clem Cole writes:
>
> > Yes, it was a full Single System Image (SSI) system -- one of the
> 3B4000's
> > SW architects was Tom Bishop, whom I'm still in contact (he's in the
> Austin
> > these days).  Those folk did a nice job.  FWIW:   When the 4000 project
> was
> > canceled in Indiana Hill, Tom joined us @ LCC to work on TNC.
>
> This is of course extremeley relevant to my interests as well. Since
> I've gotten the 3B2/400 emulator pretty much finished up (MAU, NI, CTC,
> and PORTS are all working now), I'm turning my attention to trying to
> emulate other 3B2 models, starting with the /600 and /1000 WE32200
> systems.
>
> The 3B4000 is an entirely different beast, of course, but I've seen
> precious little documentation about it. I'd love to hear more from Tom
> Bishop's history at Indian Hill, if he's willing to share!
>
> -Seth
> --
>   Seth Morabito
>   Poulsbo, WA, USA
>   web@loomcom.com
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 51+ messages in thread

end of thread, back to index

Thread overview: 51+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2019-07-11 14:53 [TUHS] PCC for the i386 Jason Stevens
2019-07-11 15:12 ` arnold
2019-07-11 15:37 ` Clem cole
2019-07-11 15:50   ` Jason Stevens
2019-07-11 16:30     ` Clem cole
2019-07-11 16:42       ` Richard Salz
2019-07-11 16:48       ` Warner Losh
2019-07-11 17:05         ` Clem Cole
2019-07-11 19:39           ` Charles H Sauer
2019-07-12  0:14             ` Clem Cole
2019-07-11 16:50       ` A. P. Garcia
2019-07-11 16:54         ` Clem Cole
2019-07-12  3:44         ` Michael Parson
2019-07-17  7:37         ` [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: " emanuel stiebler
2019-07-17  8:10           ` arnold
2019-07-17  9:28             ` Arrigo Triulzi
2019-07-17 10:09               ` Jason Stevens
2019-07-17 10:42               ` emanuel stiebler
2019-07-17 15:40                 ` Adam Thornton
2019-07-17 18:01                   ` Clem Cole
2019-07-17 12:32               ` Ben Greenfield via TUHS
2019-07-17 12:50                 ` Dagobert Michelsen
2019-07-17 13:38                   ` Arrigo Triulzi
2019-07-17 14:41                 ` Clem Cole
2019-07-17 15:08                   ` Ben Greenfield via TUHS
2019-07-17 21:09                     ` Dagobert Michelsen
2019-07-18  8:56                       ` Arrigo Triulzi
2019-07-17 16:04                   ` William Pechter
2019-07-17 14:34               ` Clem Cole
2019-07-17 23:22                 ` Bakul Shah
2019-07-18  0:04                   ` Clem cole
2019-07-17 22:48               ` Chris Hanson
2019-07-18  8:39                 ` Wesley Parish
2019-07-17 14:15             ` Clem Cole
2019-07-17 15:11             ` Larry McVoy
2019-07-17 15:31               ` Warner Losh
2019-07-17 15:36               ` Jason Stevens
2019-07-17 16:56                 ` Larry McVoy
2019-07-24  1:04               ` Lyndon Nerenberg
2019-07-24  1:30                 ` Arthur Krewat
2019-07-24 21:53                 ` Kevin Bowling
2019-07-25 19:16                   ` Lyndon Nerenberg
2019-07-25 19:29                     ` [TUHS] AT&T 3b4000 (was Re: Old 386 Unix Versions) Kevin Bowling
2019-07-25 20:47                       ` Clem Cole
2019-07-26 18:18                         ` Seth J. Morabito
2019-07-26 19:24                           ` Clem Cole
2019-07-18  0:04           ` [TUHS] BSD/386 (was: Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386) Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2019-07-18  0:16             ` Richard Salz
2019-07-18  1:08               ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2019-07-18 15:01             ` Chet Ramey
2019-07-26 18:40 Richard Tobin

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